Conference hbahba::cam_sports

But I think a tribute to Cal Ripken should have a better title
than "exit"...  :-)

Lou also put up better offensive numbers than Cal ever could.

Cal's gonna break the record, unless I can head down there with my
nightstick first, and that's good for him.

The only solace I have is that Lou is probably rootin' for Cal....


'Saw

    
    dam editior....I wanted to call it "Bow down Saw, Cal's #1"
    
    mike

>Cal's gonna break the record, unless I can head down there with my
>nightstick first, and that's good for him.

Careful, 'Saw - there'd be plenty of us willing to lie in wait for you
with weapons far bigger than a nightstick...  :-)

I don't get how anyone can *not* root for Cal Ripken:

	o  the guy puts up good offensive numbers every year, outstanding
	   given his position

	o  he makes all the plays at shortstop.  No highlight film stuff, just
	   day in and day out excellence

	o  he helps stabilize the lineup - you know you've got a solid
	   contributor at a particular lineup slot *every day*

	o  his picture is next to the word "class" in the dictionary.  No
	   crying or whining - he just goes out, plays the game, and plays
	   it well.  The guy's dad got canned as manager - he just kept going.
	   Rickey Henderson would bitch and moan until someone gave him an
	   extra $3 million a year to assuage his feelings.

	o  In an era of Charles Barkleys, he *is* a role model.  No dubious
	   product endorsements, no incidents in nightclubs, plenty of 
	   contributions to the community.  He seems to be a regular guy
	   who just plays baseball far better than any of us could hope to.

And to be honest, I don't know if Lou Gehrig could put up Lou Gehrig numbers
nowadays - the travel is different, there are more distractions, etc. 

Roland

>
>Careful, 'Saw - there'd be plenty of us willing to lie in wait for you
>with weapons far bigger than a nightstick...  :-)
>

Oh.  Okay.  Then look for me somewhere about 200 yards away.  ;^)


>I don't get how anyone can *not* root for Cal Ripken:
>
>	o  the guy puts up good offensive numbers every year, outstanding
>	   given his position

YAWN.


>	o  he makes all the plays at shortstop.  No highlight film stuff, just
>	   day in and day out excellence

YAWN.

>	o  his picture is next to the word "class" in the dictionary.  No
>	   crying or whining - he just goes out, plays the game, and plays
>	   it well.  The guy's dad got canned as manager - he just kept going.
>	   Rickey Henderson would bitch and moan until someone gave him an
>	   extra $3 million a year to assuage his feelings.

So is Lou's.

>And to be honest, I don't know if Lou Gehrig could put up Lou Gehrig numbers
>nowadays - the travel is different, there are more distractions, etc. 

Sure he would.  


It's very simple how I could not root for Cal.  I like Lou better.
Nothing objective about it.  

It's one of those things that boils down to some people like chocolate ice
cream (YUK) and some folks liking vanilla.....

He'll do his thing, they'll hail him as this big hero, and I'll watch it
cause it's part of history, but I won't get excited about it....


'Saw

    
    You know what I'd like to see?
    
    Cal tie the record, and then take the next day off.
    
    Joe

    
    
    nah then it becomes a "All I wanted was the record" type of thing and
    not Joe Sixpack going off to work everyday.  I truely don't feel Cal's
    numbers are incredible or anything but the streak is and I for one am
    looking forward to him breaking it.
    
    Jerry

If Cal was a man and loved baseball, he'd go one short, and then in a tribute
to Lou, take the next day off.

The tie thing would be nice too (I remember a marathon where Bill Rogers
and Frank Shorter fought all race long, and finally when they hit the finish
line, grab each other's hand -- the signal for an intentional tie)

But then again, I'm a Lou Gehrig fan and not a Cal Ripken fan.


'Saw

>But then again, I'm a Lou Gehrig fan and not a Cal Ripken fan.

We never would have guessed.  You're so uncommunicative...
:-)

    
    	Cal was asked the question on ESPN Upclose. Cal said he will not
    tie the record then take a day off.  He will continue to play everyday
    until he can't do it anymore. He will continue to do the same exact
    things he has done for the last 15 years. If he breaks the record fine,
    if he doesn't fine. When the streak ends the streak ends.
    	As someone said "Records are meant to be broken". You have to
    remember there is a current generation of kids playing baseball. There
    will be future generations of kids playing baseball. Fifty years from
    now, who will kids be talking about? Is it going to be Babe Ruth and
    Lou Gehrig? Or will it be Cal Ripken, Ken Griffey Jr., or Hideo Nomo?
    
    Ron 

    
    Saw should remember Tommy Tutone and Tommy the Workout book......
    
    ;^)
On May 30, 1982 ...


Here are notable events from May 30, 1982, the day Cal Ripken
began his consecutive games streak.

Spain becomes a member of NATO.

The Pope visits Liverpool and Coventry on the third day of his
six-day British trip.

British ships start begin pounding Port Stanley as Falkland Islands
conflict escalates.

Gordon Johncock beats Rick Mears by 16/100 of a second in the
66th Indianapolis 500.

Entertainment on May 30, 1982

Playing at the movies:
"Diner"
"Dead Men don't Wear Plaid"
"Rocky III"
"Conan the Barbarian"
"Annie"
"Visiting Hours"
"The Atomic Cafe"
"The Escape Artist"

Playing on TV:
"Cliff's"
"Archie Bunker's Place"
"One Day at a Time"
"Alice"
"The Jeffersons"
"Trapper John, M.D."
"The Legend of Walks Far Woman"

On the radio:
"Ebony and Ivory," by Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder
"Chariots of Fire," by Vangelis
"Don't Talk to Strangers," by Rick Springfield
"I Love Rock and Roll," by Joan jett and the Blackhearts
"867-5309/Jenny," by Tommy TuTone

Top album: "Tug of War," by Paul McCartney

On the bookshelves:
Fiction: "The Parsifal Mosaic," by Robert Ludlum
"The One Tree," by Stephen R. Donaldson
"North and South," by John Jakes
Nonficition:
"Jane Fonda's Workout Book," by Jane Fonda
"Living, Loving & Learning," by Leo Buscaglia
"The Fate of the Earth," by Jonathan Schnell

Ripken's honors


Major-league records held by Cal Ripken
Most home runs by shortstop -- 314.
Most seasons leading league in games by a shortstop -- 10.
Most consecutive games by a shortstop -- 2,094
Most seasons leading league in double plays by a shortsop -- 7.
Single-season record for most at-bats without a triple -- 646
(1989).
Single-season record for highest fielding percentage by a shortstop
-- .996 (1990).
Single-season record for fewest errors by a shortstop (150 or more
games) -- 3 (1990).
Most consecutive errorless games by a shortstop -- 95 (April 14
through July 27, 1990).
Most consecutve chances accepted by a shortstop without an error
-- 431 (April 14 through July 28, 1990 first game)

American League records
Most seasons leading league in putouts by a shortstop -- 6.
Single-season record for most assists by a shortstop -- 583 (1984).
Shares record for most seasons leading league in assists by shortsop
-- 7.

Awards won by Ripken
AL Rookie Player of the Year by The Sporting News (1982).
AL Rookie of the Year by Baseball Writers' Association of
America (1982).
Major-League Player of the Year by The Sporting News (1983 and
'91).
AL Player of the Year by The Sporting News (1983 and 1991).
Shortstop on The Sporting News' AL All-Star team (1983, '84,
'85, '89, '91, '93, '94).
Shortsop on The Sporting News' AL Silver Slugger team (1983,
'84, '85, '86, '89, '91, '93, '94).
AL Most Valuable Player by the Baseball Writers' Association of
America (1983 and '91).
AL Gold Glove winner at shortsop (1991, '92).

Ripken statistics
Led AL shortstops with 831 total chances in 1983, 906 in 1984,
815 in 1989, 806 in 1991 and 738 in 1993.
Led AL shortstops with 113 double plays in 1983, 122 in 1984,
123 in 1985, 119 in 1989, 114 in 1991, 119 in 1992 and 72 in
1994.
Tied for AL lead with 15 game-winning RBIs in 1986.
Tied for AL lead with 10 sacrifice flies in 1988.
Led AL with 368 total bases in 1991.

Well, shucks you guys.  Can't a feller like one player and not another?


I know there's all these new kids coming up, and no doubt someday someone
will break Cal's record-to-be.

But I remember as a kid reading about the Iron Horse, and my dad telling
me about him (and I figure anyone who could make a Red Sox fan talk about
a Yankee player had to approach godhood) and to me there's only ONE
Iron Horse.

So I've been silently rooting for a couple of years now for ol' Cal to
tear a hamstring, or spain an ankle.   But it's probably not going to happen,
and ol Cal will break the Iron Horse's record.

I just don't want to hear anyone calling him The New Iron Horse. There was
only ONE Iron Horse.   Call Cal something else....(The Boring Bird, or
Lunchpail Man, or something like that)....


;^)

    Did anyone ask Gehrig to play in game 1,307 and sit down, therby tieing
    the record then held by Everett Scott?  Why not?
    
    Are we going to ask every potential record breaker to just tie every
    record out there - "Well son, why dont' you just sit this game out? 
    Wouldn't want to break Jimmy "Spiderlegs" Numbnuts all-time rushing
    record now, would we?  Good, I thought you'd understand."
    
    Would you have wanted Hammerin' Hank to hang 'em up at #713?
    
    UMDan 

>
>    Did anyone ask Gehrig to play in game 1,307 and sit down, therby tieing
>    the record then held by Everett Scott?  Why not?
>    


Jeez, give it a rest.  I already said the magic words -- I'm being totally
*subjective*!

Ergo, I can feel however I want, however illogical it may seem to some.

Therefore, stop trying to change my mind 8^)

>Therefore, stop trying to change my mind 8^)

Can't change something non-existent... :-)

|>Therefore, stop trying to change my mind 8^)
|
|Can't change something non-existent... :-)

Hey, Hey, I resemble that remark.

It's not "non-existent", it's just kind of set in its ways....

    Reminds me of what Descarte once said about Popeye
    
    He thinks there for he yams
    
    Also, re. Gehrig.  I once said relying on memory that Gehrig starred at
    Columbia in Soccer but I have since read that he played football for
    tcm's alma mater.  I see that an exhaustive biography of Gehrig is out
    so why don't someone buy it, read it and then give it to me (I'll swap
    you "Cobb" and throw in Fred Lieb's books and maybe even Lee McPhail's
    bio. 
    
    	Anyway it should tell the tale about the soccer myth/truth.

    
    You don't play every day for 14 straight years and then sit down after
    the record is tied.  No point in that.  I've said it before-- by
    breaking this record Ripken only adds to the Gehrig legacy.  There's
    a whole generation of kids most of whom would probably never have heard 
    of Lou Gehrig if not for this event...
    
    glenn
    

We should have an over/under (in games) as to how long after the record is
broken that Ripken is drilled by a pitch.

For amusement purposes only, of course...

>    There's
>    a whole generation of kids most of whom would probably never have heard 
>    of Lou Gehrig if not for this event...

This is something that really hadn't occured to me.  As a pre-teen, it would
have been *incomprehensible* to me that anyone with even a passing interest in
baseball wouldn't have heard of Lou Gehrig.  But it's a great point - one of
the lures of baseball is the sense of history around it.  Ripken approaching
Gehrig's record is just the sort of thing it needs...

Glenn, I'm not going to take the bait.  I'm not going to take the bait.

I've resisted the temptation (and it was a mighty effort) to use a
MrT-like p-name  ("Cal MUST be stopped") and am taking this sacrilege
stoically and like a main.

Cal can bring his lunch pail for however many days he decides he wants to
play straight, but as I've said, I hope the press et al has the good sense not
to refer to him as "The New Iron Horse".  That would be like someone
referring to Hank as "The New Bambino".

IMO, Cal could never carry Gehrig's jock on his best day, offensively at
any rate.

But Cal's put a couple of thousand games together so good for him....


(And that's as grudging a tribute as you'll get from me)


'Saw

You can't really compare Gehrig and Ripken offensively.  In the first place,
Gehrig played in an era of inflated offensive numbers.  In the second, he
was a first baseman.  Ripken, as I needn't remind anyone, plays the most
crucial infield position, and plays it very well.  People can have long
major league careers playing outstanding shortstop while hitting .250
with no power.

This is certainly not intended as a knock on Gehrig, a stupendous hitter
and by all accounts one of the classiest men ever to play the game.  But
my admiration for him will not hinder me in the least from applauding
Ripken's accomplishment.

And the way he's handled this hoopla has been wonderful.  He's not trying
to break a record, he just wants to play every day.  I hope he plays
another 500 straight.

Steve

    'Saw, you probably know that (www.)usatoday(.com) is devoting a lot of
    coverage to Ripken vs Gehrig with a lot reporting on Lou (and Elanor).
    
    It interviewed other iron men such as Garvey(4),Musial(7) and Eddie
    Yost the old walking man of the Washington Senators (8).
    
    So who's 3,5 and 6?

Today's USA Today has an article in which one of their writers talks to some
of the "old-time Iron Men" from the 40's and 50's.

Eddie Yost and Stan Musial both say that Ripken's streak has been harder to
accomplish than Gehrig's

Yost says, "I traveled in the old days with eight teams in the league, by
train.  I think it's more difficult going coast-to-coast, particularly coming
back from California."

I know I'm not going to change your mind, 'Saw - I just want to show everyone
how irrational you're being... :-)

Roland

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the travel is harder today.  Sure, no problem.

I'll bet Cal would like to get on one of those trains and bop from New York
out to St. Louis.... no problem.  

And the equipment and "trainers" were a lot better in those days too -- nothing
like a little linament for a sore back.  Nowadays you have to sit in a
whirlpool -- tough thing to do.  

And those wools uniforms -- that's a better uniform to wear than today's
double knits......


Here's to irrationality.....


'Saw

>Yeah, yeah, yeah, the travel is harder today.  Sure, no problem.
>
>I'll bet Cal would like to get on one of those trains and bop from New York
>out to St. Louis.... no problem.  
>
>And the equipment and "trainers" were a lot better in those days too -- nothing
>like a little linament for a sore back.  Nowadays you have to sit in a
>whirlpool -- tough thing to do.  

That's true - you would know more about it than the guys that did it for 10+
years...

>And those wools uniforms -- that's a better uniform to wear than today's
>double knits......

Well, they're more flattering if you're a chunk like me...

>That's true - you would know more about it than the guys that did it for 10+
>years...

C'mon Roland, cut the bullshit (oops, the b-word)

Which would you rather do.  Play baseball day in day out and have to
rely on linament and a rub down, or play baseball day in and day out
with the benefit of 50+ years of increased medical know-how and technology.



|>And those wools uniforms -- that's a better uniform to wear than today's
|>double knits......
|
|Well, they're more flattering if you're a chunk like me...

Yeah, this is true.  I've got a butt like Cecil Fielder, and it would
look better in wool....8^)

>Which would you rather do.  Play baseball day in day out and have to
>rely on linament and a rub down, or play baseball day in and day out
>with the benefit of 50+ years of increased medical know-how and technology.

My opinion is virtually worthless in this situation.  I entered the opinions
stated by a couple of guys who played in the "old days" and are still 
involved with the game.  Their opinions are far more informed than yours or
mine...

Touch� mon ami!

Good point....

I still think I'd look better in a wool uni though. And wool DOES breathe.


;^)

>I still think I'd look better in a wool uni though. And wool DOES breathe.

Wear it for 2-3 hours under a hot sun and *you* wouldn't, though...  :-)

Back to the tribute!!!!!  The focal point of this note had 3 RBI last night.

In kind of a reverse tribute, Rickey Henderson sat out yesterday's game
because he "wasn't mentally into it".  As the ESPN staff noted, "he's no
Cal Ripken."

Ripken is supposed to break the record on the 6th in Baltimore against
Cleveland, is he not?

I'm with 'Saw, in that I don't want to see Gehrig's record broken, but
I do appreciate Ripken's approach to this feat (ie: the respect he's
shown toward Gehrig).  Although, he must think the average fan is a
little naive to believe his saying this streak just "happened" because
he comes to the park to play every day.  Obviously he's been a physical
wonder to get this far, but certainly he and those around him knew many
years ago the course he was on.  I'm sure there were many times he
pushed to keep it going.  Once the record is broken, it'll be interesting
to see if next year, or the year after that, he starts taking a day
off like every other MLer.


re: the streak being easier for Gehrig

Yeah, I'll bet playing through that life-ending disease was a piece of
cake compared to that drain of a cross-country plane flight.

>Obviously he's been a physical
>wonder to get this far, but certainly he and those around him knew many
>years ago the course he was on.  I'm sure there were many times he
>pushed to keep it going.

Identify a goal and work towards it.  What a vain, horrendous thing!

>Once the record is broken, it'll be interesting
>to see if next year, or the year after that, he starts taking a day
>off like every other MLer.

Cynicism doesn't become you, Joe...

He supposedly has scoffed at people who suggested he take a day off soon
afterward, and maintains that he will continue doing what he's doing as long
as he can.  Admittedly, words are one thing and deeds another - you're right
about the "will see" part.

I don't understand not wanting Gehrig's record to be broken - what is it at
the emotional level that bothers you and 'Saw about it?  It doesn't diminish
anything that Gehrig did - in fact it brought his name back into the limelight
for casual fans, and you yourself just stated that Ripken has treated Gehrig
with nothing but respect.  And Ripken himself is as likable as you can get -
there's damned little bad said about him even in this day and age.  He's not
Rickey Henderson, Deion Sanders, Barry Bonds, Dave Kingman, Roger Clemens,
Vince "The Roman Candle" Coleman, or Bret "Clorox" Saberhagen.

---

To put this all in perspective, there was also an accompanying piece in today's
paper about a guy who hasn't missed a day of work at the hardware store in 59
years.  All the times he's ever been really sick or injured, he's been on
vacation...

>I don't understand not wanting Gehrig's record to be broken - what is it at
>the emotional level that bothers you and 'Saw about it?  It doesn't diminish
>anything that Gehrig did - in fact it brought his name back into the limelight
>for casual fans, and you yourself just stated that Ripken has treated Gehrig
>with nothing but respect.  And Ripken himself is as likable as you can get -
>there's damned little bad said about him even in this day and age.  He's not
>Rickey Henderson, Deion Sanders, Barry Bonds, Dave Kingman, Roger Clemens,
>Vince "The Roman Candle" Coleman, or Bret "Clorox" Saberhagen.


I can't tell you that any more than I can tell you why I revere the Flag
and this Country, why I think that Color Sgts in the Civil War were some of the
bravest men the world has ever seen, why I think that helping little children
in some way is one of the biggest accomplishments a man can perform, etc etc
etc.

You said it yourself -- it's at the emotional level.  

To me it's a record that should never be broken -- and I'm not even a 
Yankee fan.  

I won't apologize for it, I won't rationalize it, but neither will I be put
down for it.

I recognize Cal's drive and desire, and marvel that I'm older yet have
let grey hair 8^)


I'll watch tomorrow night, and be happy for Cal's fans.  It'll be a sad day 
for me, but I won't pass up the chance to watch a piece of history.


That's just the way I feel,
'Saw

    
       <as the Battle Hymn Of The Republic plays in the background>
    

    >> I can't tell you that any more than I can tell you why I revere 
    >> the Flag and this Country, why I think that Color Sgts in the Civil 
    >> War were some of the bravest men the world has ever seen, why I think 
    >> that helping little children in some way is one of the biggest accomp-
    >> lishments a man can perform, etc etc etc.

>       <as the Battle Hymn Of The Republic plays in the background>
    

Minor nit:

	To me, the Battle Hymn is an overworked old chestnut.

	When talking about things that are near and dear to this heart,
	I prefer either:

		a) the music from Gettysburg
		b) Samual Barber's Adagio for Strings
		c) The Navy Hymn


hth,
'Saw

  Or if you really want a song that tugs at your heart strings how about the
Stone's "You can't always get what you want"? Give's me a "Big Chill" just
thinking about it. 

  Earl Weaver is suppose to throw out the 1st ball tonight and Cal's kids are
suppose to do the honor tomorrow when he breaks the record. Word is there are
many other festivities planned for tomorrow but they want to keep them secret
from Cal. 

  Good effort by Ripken but I'll bet he'll be glad it's over so he can get back
to concentrating on playing the game.

  George 

    Seenthe latest "Baseball Night" (or whatever) commercial with the two
    gents at the bar and the Sinatra tickets/Ripken game dilema?  Pretty
    funny.
    
    UMDan 

>    Seenthe latest "Baseball Night" (or whatever) commercial with the two
>    gents at the bar and the Sinatra tickets/Ripken game dilema?  Pretty
>    funny.
    
Every time I've seen it I've had the sound down.

Now I know what they're talking about....8^)

  Channel 5 in Boston had something really weird this morning. The TV was
on all night and when I woke up I could hear Sam Donalson talking about how
the Fauklands had just been invaded. Then I heard stories about Kerkpatrick
responding in the U.N. and a statement by President Reagan.

  I didn't get up in time to see it up close but it seemed to be a sports
program (I could hear Dick Shapp talking about Ripken) and I assume they were
rerunning the nightly news from the day Cal's streak started.

  Weird, real "War of the Worlds" stuff,
  George

    ESPN had a great program on last night about Cal.  Amazing the number
    of players that have come and gone during his tenure.  Apparently the
    next closest player to him in terms of games played is Frank Thomas at
    200 something.
    
    UMDan

    
    thomas is at 233

I love the ESPN promos for tonight's game.  A subtle background of Cal's
face, with the number 2,131 in the foreground, and the time of the game at
the bottom of the screen.  No "Cleveland Indians vs. Baltimore Orioles", 
no "at Camden Yards" - just the real basics as to why most people want to
watch and when it starts.

----------------------

Now for some not-so-subtle, U. Miami-style 'Saw taunting:

	If "second place is the first loser", what is Lou Gehrig after
	tonight?

15 YARDS, UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT, ON THE OFFENSE

I actually *don't* feel that way about Gehrig, I just want to argue the
absurdity of the "first loser" statement.

|
|Now for some not-so-subtle, U. Miami-style 'Saw taunting:
|
|	If "second place is the first loser", what is Lou Gehrig after
|	tonight?
|
|15 YARDS, UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT, ON THE OFFENSE
|
|I actually *don't* feel that way about Gehrig, I just want to argue the
|absurdity of the "first loser" statement.


Obviously, Roland, you have to take things in context.  If you're talking
about a race, then second place is the first loser.  Of course, you still
get prize money, you still get bonuses etc etc....


What is Gehrig after tonight?  He's a triple crown winner (something that
Cal will never be), he's in the HoF (surely a lock for Cal now), he's the
Iron Horse, (something that Cal will never be) and he's the former record
holder for most consecutive games played (something that Cal will probably
never be, but then they said that about Gehrig...)


Don't get me wrong -- my hat is off to Cal for busting his butt for 2,130
games (so far).  He'll break the record tonight, and everyone will get all
excited (well, almost everyone) and that will be that....


Gehrig and Cal have never gone head to head, so Gehrig could never finish
second to Cal, ergo, he couldn't be the first loser.


I'm sorry all you guys if I'm not all excited and moist about Cal.  If it
bothers you all, that's your tough luck.   I was hoping that Cal wouldn't
make it this far, that's been no secret, because for whatever reasons,
however emotional, however personal, I would have liked to have seen
Gehrig's record stand for the ages.  

I'll say this -- better a man with some class and some workmanlike ethic like
Cal Ripken, than some egotistical maniac like Rickey Henderson.


'saw

RE              <<< Note 236.46 by CAMONE::WAY "We aim by P.F.M" >>>

>I'll say this -- better a man with some class and some workmanlike ethic like
>Cal Ripken, than some egotistical maniac like Rickey Henderson.

  ... but Henderson has his record, he doesn't need another.

  Q:  What three things will all the players in the Hall of Fame have in common
      after tonight?

  A:  None of them have as many consecutive games as Cal Ripken, as many hits
      as Pete Rose or as many Stolen Bases as Rickey Henderson.

  George

>I'm sorry all you guys if I'm not all excited and moist about Cal.

Actually, we'd prefer that you weren't... :-)  (Well, excited is OK.  Moist
is going too far.)

>If it bothers you all, that's your tough luck.

It did at first, but now I'm just having fun trying to bait you...
The five-paragraph response to an obvious taunt indicates that it worked.  :-)

    
    	Any chance of rain in Baltimore tonight? Cal doesn't officially
    get the record. Until the middle of the 5th, if Baltimore is ahead.
    Or until the 5th inning is over. They estimate that the game will
    be delayed for 15-20 minutes. Once the game is an official game.
    
    Ron

BTW - I was wrong in a previous note - California is the opponent if there's
no rainout.  If there is a rainout, the Orioles play next at Cleveland.

    
>  A:  None of them have as many consecutive games as Cal Ripken, as many hits
>      as Pete Rose or as many Stolen Bases as Rickey Henderson.
    
    Or as many Strikeouts as Nolan Ryan, as many walks as Nolan Ryan, as
    many no hitters as Nolan Ryan...
    
    ===
    
    You know, my problem with Ripken's streak has nothing to do with
    these last few days.  While I still think that, if it were me, I'd
    sit tonight, I don't think it's at all reasonable to _expect_
    Cal to.  What I would rather have seen from Ripken, thought, is
    the career he could have had if he weren't chasing "the streak".
    For all the talk of him being a lunch-bucket, blue-collar player
    and all, any reasonable athelete knows that they can't give their
    best performance when impared by injury or exhaustion, and 14 years
    of not-really-Cal's-best-effort + the streak << Cal's-best-effort,
    at least in my book.  I believe he could have been the greatest
    shortstop ever; instead, he's just been good (and still occasionally
    great).
    
    Joe

    I've made no bones of the fact that subjectively speaking, Cal "The
    Iron Pony" Ripken has always been a hero to me... ;-)
    
>    For all the talk of him being a lunch-bucket, blue-collar player
>    and all, any reasonable athelete knows that they can't give their
>    best performance when impared by injury or exhaustion, and 14 years
>    of not-really-Cal's-best-effort + the streak << Cal's-best-effort,
>    at least in my book.  I believe he could have been the greatest
>    shortstop ever; instead, he's just been good (and still occasionally
>    great).
    
    Overall, let's use the word "great", not "good".  Given the length of
    career, "great", as in, second-best career SS of all time, behind 
    Honus Wagner.  Could he have been better?  Arguably, but when you're 
    as great a player as Ripken has been, that's overanalysis.  There 
    isn't that much room for Ripken to have gone up.
    
    How 'bout the guy who caught Cal's HR ball last night in Game 2130?
    Listening on the radio on the way home from Fenway (where
    Cal-on-the-scoreboard received a stading O) the O's announcers were
    saying that Ripken really, really wants that ball.  So far, no answer,
    but they gave the guy's name and address, and federal agents are
    closing in...
    
    glenn
    

    
>    Overall, let's use the word "great", not "good".  Given the length of
>    career, "great", as in, second-best career SS of all time, behind 
>    Honus Wagner.  Could he have been better?  Arguably, but when you're 
>    as great a player as Ripken has been, that's overanalysis.  There 
>    isn't that much room for Ripken to have gone up.
    
    No?  I'd argue that there was.  As it stands, I don't believe Cal
    was (overall) the best SS of his generation - I'd give that honor
    to Ozzie Smith.  I wouldn't be surprised if, had Cal simply taken
    necessary time off, his cumulative numbers (hits, HR, doubles, etc)
    would have been similar, just spread over fewer at bats, and
    with subsequently better BA, SLG, OBP, etc.
    
    Hard to say anything definitive, but that's my feelings on the
    subject...
    
    Joe

>    No?  I'd argue that there was.  As it stands, I don't believe Cal
>    was (overall) the best SS of his generation - I'd give that honor
>    to Ozzie Smith.  I wouldn't be surprised if, had Cal simply taken
>    necessary time off, his cumulative numbers (hits, HR, doubles, etc)
>    would have been similar, just spread over fewer at bats, and
>    with subsequently better BA, SLG, OBP, etc.

     It seems that to rank Smith ahead of Ripken, you really have to
     rate Smith's defensive wizardry as a far superior trait, and worth much
     more than the decisive offensive advantage that Ripken gave the Birds.
     Ozzie's offensive numbers pale in comparison, while Ripken was a good
     defensive shortstop, perhaps even very good.  I haven't seen a shortstop
     as valuable as Cal over an entire career.

I agrre with Rich and Glenn on Cal vs. Ozzie thing.  I think the difference 
between Cal's hitting and Ozzie's is/was much bigger than the difference 
between the two's fielding.  You'd have to extrememly weight the values 
toward fielding to get Ozzie ahead.  Granted we are talking abut SS, where 
fielding is valuable, but I don't think the difference.

brews

    	Okay, now that the "consecutive games played", unbreakable record
    has been broken, it's time to get back to the "What records will NEVER
    be broken. There was an article in yesterday's USA Today about some of
    them...
    
    Cy Young career 511 victories
    Wilt's 100 point game
    Aaron's HR mark
    
    others?

  Barry Larken > (Ozzie | Cal)

  George

>  Barry Larken > (Ozzie | Cal)

>  George

   That's a good one, George ... care to try again ?

    
    Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak.....
    Edwin Moses's 400+ straight victories.....
    Tie: Wade Boggs and Jogn Elway's crying jags.......
    
    mike

>  Barry Larken > (Ozzie | Cal)

Are you going for a logical or a bitwise OR?

  Guess it has to be an exclusive OR but I'd still take Larkin over either
of the other two.

  By the way, Cal still has a way to go. He's a hundred or so games behind
the guy who really holds the record which was set over in Japan in the 70's.
What do you bet he hangs on and tries for that one as well.

  I forget the guys name, it was in the Globe.

  George

>  Guess it has to be an exclusive OR but I'd still take Larkin over either
>of the other two.

Right now, yeah.  Over the course of a career - no way.

My subjective rankings:

	Ripken  - very good offensive, tremendously underrated defensively (an
		    entire season with *3* errors), unparalleled durability 	
		    (obviously)
	Smith   - the *greatest* defensive SS of all time, an offensive cipher
		    early in his career, ended up generating excellent BA/SB
		    numbers
	Larkin	- tremendous offensive/defensive blend, but too much DL time

This year, Larkin > Ripken > Smith.

Anyone think anybody can throw back to back to back no hitters?  I don't see 
that ever getting broken.

brews

511 wins = 20 wins for 25 seasons, plus another 11.  Guys that play 25 seasons
sure don't win 20 every year, and it's not like you can easily win 30-35 to
make up for a couple of "down" years.

Breaking DiMaggio's 56 game hit streak is more imaginable, but I don't know if
it'll be done.  (The most amazing thing is that the day after the streak was
broken, he put together a 17(?) game streak.  If it wasn't for Ken Keltner,
we'd be talking about 74+ games...)

  On the other hand I think that the 4 HR/game record will be broken soon
during a Rockie's game. All it will take is for someone like Bonds to get
hot during some toasty Sunday afternoon game. If the AL played there Thomas
or Bell would probably have done it already.

  George

    
>I agrre with Rich and Glenn on Cal vs. Ozzie thing.  I think the difference 
>between Cal's hitting and Ozzie's is/was much bigger than the difference 
>between the two's fielding.  You'd have to extrememly weight the values 
>toward fielding to get Ozzie ahead.  Granted we are talking abut SS, where 
>fielding is valuable, but I don't think the difference.
    
    I think the error here (IMHO) is that you're _assuming_ a significant
    offensive advantage for Ripken.  Yes, there probably is some -
    but I believe Smith has an advantage in OBP, which somewhat offsets
    Ripken's SLG advantage.
    
    Joe

    
>    	Okay, now that the "consecutive games played", unbreakable record
>    has been broken, it's time to get back to the "What records will NEVER
>    be broken. There was an article in yesterday's USA Today about some of
>    them...
    
    It's not terribly reasonable to look for a record that will NEVER
    be broken, because sports are always changing; it _is_ entirely
    possible to find a record that's unlikely to be broken within the
    current generation.
    
>    Cy Young career 511 victories
    
    Good choice.  Given _current_ pitching use, this record is not
    threatened.
    
>    Wilt's 100 point game
    
    Eh.  Basketball's not my game, but I wouldn't call this record
    "safe" - look at what San Antonio did for Robinson, and it's clear
    that this record _can_ be attacked.
    
>    Aaron's HR mark
    
    Hah!  I'll be _much_ more surprised if -no- current player breaks
    it than if one or more does.  There is _no_ reason, at present, to
    believe that Ken Griffey, Frank Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Manny
    Ramirez, and others won't be in good position to take it; heck,
    if Colorado ever develops a hitter of that caliber, the record
    might hit 1000...
    
>    Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak.....
    
    Another one I wouldn't bet on lasting through the current generation
    of player, though it _is_ less likely to fall that Aaron's record.
    
>    Anyone think anybody can throw back to back to back no hitters?  I
>    don't see that ever getting broken.
    
    Another tough one, though not impossible.  It requires a few things -
    a power pitcher, a pitcher's park, and a shift away from offense
    (a big strikezone & higher pitcher's mound certainly help).  I
    wouldn't bet on it happening during the current generation.
    
>    On the other hand I think that the 4 HR/game record will be broken soon
>    during a Rockie's game. All it will take is for someone like Bonds to
>    get hot during some toasty Sunday afternoon game. If the AL played there
>    Thomas or Belle would probably have done it already.
    
    Yeah, I doubt that one will hold; tied records aren't as interesting,
    though...
    
    Joe

>    Cy Young career 511 victories
    
  Cy Young's 312 or so losses. Now there's a record that's safe.

  George

	Another record that probally  will never be broken would be:

	
		Clemens excuses why he didn't pitch well in the games he
		sipped.

Last reply (.71) sounded like Groaner or Mike Childs logging into another
account...
:-)

>    Aaron's HR mark
>    
>    Hah!  I'll be _much_ more surprised if -no- current player breaks
>    it than if one or more does.  There is _no_ reason, at present, to
>    believe that Ken Griffey, Frank Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Manny
>    Ramirez, and others won't be in good position to take it; heck,
>    if Colorado ever develops a hitter of that caliber, the record
>    might hit 1000...

     Think about the longevity it will take to break this record.
     There aren't many guys today who will hit more than 40 HR's in a
     season more than 5-6 times, yet it would take 20 seasons of 40 HR's
     each to approach the record.

    
>>    Aaron's HR mark
>>    
>>    Hah!  I'll be _much_ more surprised if -no- current player breaks
>>    it than if one or more does.  There is _no_ reason, at present, to
>>    believe that Ken Griffey, Frank Thomas, Juan Gonzalez, Manny
>>    Ramirez, and others won't be in good position to take it; heck,
>>    if Colorado ever develops a hitter of that caliber, the record
>>    might hit 1000...

>     Think about the longevity it will take to break this record.
>     There aren't many guys today who will hit more than 40 HR's in a
>     season more than 5-6 times, yet it would take 20 seasons of 40 HR's
>     each to approach the record.
    
    1) 20 seasons of 40 HR wouldn't approach the record - it would
       break it.
    
    2) The four players I mentioned are each capable of 50-60 HR seasons
       in their peaks.
    
    3) Career numbers can be projected using stats from the career so
       far.  I don't have them handy for Gonzalez, Thomas, or Griffey,
       but Manny Ramirez currently projects to hit 801 HR during his
       career, peaking at 59 in 2001.
    
    It's certainly possible that none of them will break the record,
    but given even-odds I'd certainly make the bet that at least one
    of them will.
    
    Joe

  Anyone see Cal break the record on ESPN last night? 

  It was quite an event. He officially broke the record when Damion Easley
popped to 2nd to end the top of the 5th inning making it an official game. The
reason it was official after the top of the 5th instead of the bottom of the
5th is that Cal himself hit a home run in the 4th to break the tie. A game
becomes official once the trailing team has batted 5 innings. 

  There was a standing ovation when Cal 1st came to bat in the 2nd, another
standing ovation when he hit the home run in the 4th, and the place went nuts
with the game stopping for 20 minutes when he broke the record and they
unveiled the giant 2131 hanging on the building behind right field. Near the
end of the 20 minutes Cal took a Yaz type victory lap around the field. 

  Lots of big names were there, Frank Robinson, Jolt'en Joe (who played with
Gehrig), the President and VP, Earl Weaver and many others. 

  It was amazing watching the flash bulbs. They estimated that 4000 cameras
went off on every pitch when he was at bat. It was strange the way the TV
camera picked them up even from the blimp. 

  Quite an accomplishment,
  George 

Not to take anything away from Cal, but was that HR pitch grooved
or what?

Daryll

  I doubt it, the Angels have all but backed themselves into a division race
and the game was tied at the time.

  George

As Chappy said in YANKEES, if someone was going to break this record,
I'm glad it was a guy like Ripken.  The word "class" gets thrown around
too easily (like so many superlatives today), but if someone needed an
example they couldn't find a better one than Ripken throughout this
pursuit (especially this year and last night).


As for other records, I don't think 511 victories will ever be surpassed.
The was pitchers are used today (4 days rest, extensive use of relievers)
I don't see how it can be done.  They only get ~35 starts too.  Plus,
with all the money they make, I don't see career longevity as a need.


The 56-game hitting streak could be had, but it won't by accident.
That's an amazing record and will take a truly gifted hitter to beat.


Joe Huber, you make me chuckle with your predictions of Ramirez getting
over 800 HRs in his career (which will include some 60+ years).  I know
he's had a very good year, but how years has he done this so far (to
warrant such expectations) ?

    
    	Just to clarify the record. The game was NOT tied when Cal hit his
    homerun. Bobby Bonilla hit a solo homerun, in front of Cal. So the game
    was 2-1, Cal's blast made it 3-1.
    	Whoever watched the game last night and didn't feel something
    emotional. They aren't a fan of baseball. Some believe that Gehring
    played his last ~700 games. Suffering from his illness. Which makes
    his streak all that more remarkable. All in all it doesn't matter. Both
    streaks are unbeleivable.
    	I am glad that Cal broke the record, because I think it helps
    baseball. When was the last time a MAJOR record in baseball was broken?
    It was probably Pete Rose breaking the most hits or Ricky Henderson in
    Stolen Bases.
    	MOST baseball records where set in past generations. When did Cy
    Young get win 511? Gehring set his record in the '20s/30's. Cal's
    record gives my Generation of baseball fans. Something they have seen
    from the beginning. Its a record that the next generation can look
    upon. Without having to go back 50 years to find it. It keeps the
    momentum of anything is possible if you try.
    
    Ron

> Not to take anything away from Cal, but was that HR pitch grooved
> or what?
    
    It was a 3-0 pitch.  You're more or less supposed to groove those,
    in that game situation (trailing, no one on base).  It's still the 
    hitter's job to capitalize, and Ripken did.
    
    I heard a replay of the HR call on radio with Jon Miller, on WBAL.
    Pres. Clinton was in the booth with him at the time.  They were 
    talking about how Ripken would definitely have the green light at 
    3-0, with Clinton saying something about Ripken making the most of 
    it, and when Ripken went downtown, Clinton was out of his seat, 
    yelling "Yes! Yes!".  It was much more dramatic than the ESPN call
    (I really don't think Chris Berman has the proper perspective for 
    a baseball announcer-- he'll hype the ordinary and then there's 
    nothing left in reserve for the truly special moments).
    
    The guy who escaped with the HR ball was on later and said, "I only had 
    one arm to fight with, my left.  The other arm is in a cast".  Ironically,
    he broke that arm participating in some kind of Iron Man (relax, 'Saw)
    Triathlon.
    
    In large part because of the superb way Ripken performed in the series,
    what could have been overdone wasn't, and really was not at all
    anticlimactic.  I certainly enjoyed last night's telecast...
    
    
    glenn
    

    
> Joe Huber, you make me chuckle with your predictions of Ramirez getting
> over 800 HRs in his career (which will include some 60+ years).  I know
> he's had a very good year, but how years has he done this so far (to
> warrant such expectations) ?
    
    It's not my prediction - it's Bill James, using his Brock6 (or
    whatever number is attached these days) method.  It's my prediction
    that at least one current player will break Aaron's record.
    
    And I don't particularly think it's going to be Ramirez - there's
    more reason to expect Griffey than anyone else.  Ramirez's projections
    at this point are much more rough than the other players - but it's
    certainly not _bad_ to currently project to 800+ HR... B^)
    
    Joe

>    he broke that arm participating in some kind of Iron Man (relax, 'Saw)
>    Triathlon.

No sweat Glenn.

    


Congrats to Cal for breaking the record.  It's a helluva accomplishment.
I would have liked to have seen Gehrig's record stand for all time, but
Cal has broken it, and he did it with class and a gentlemanly attitude.


Congrats Cal,


'Saw    

'Saw,

Did you know that 1st row seats for the game were $5K, proceeds going to
the organization trying to find a cure for Lou Gehrig's Disease?

What I thought was great was that Cal didn't have the President or
Vice-President throw out the first ball - it was his kids.  My wife saw
the T-shirt he was wearing: "2,131 hugs and kisses..." - and practically
broke into tears.

From my vague memories of my early read-only noting, I believe that would
be referred to as a "Cindy" T-shirt...

>Did you know that 1st row seats for the game were $5K, proceeds going to
>the organization trying to find a cure for Lou Gehrig's Disease?

No, but I'm pleased about that. 

I didn't see much of the game -- I saw a bit of the beginning and a bit
of the 22 minute ovation.

>What I thought was great was that Cal didn't have the President or
>Vice-President throw out the first ball - it was his kids.  My wife saw
>the T-shirt he was wearing: "2,131 hugs and kisses..." - and practically
>broke into tears.

Definitely a family man, no doubt about it.


As I said yesterday, I'm glad someone with some class broke the record at
least.


'Saw

>As I said yesterday, I'm glad someone with some class broke the record at
>least.

Gee, I thought the on-field stuff was similar to when Henderson broke
Brock's SB record...you remember, don't you ?...Rickey took the base
out of the ground, went to the mike and declared himself to be the
greatest base stealer of all time ???....with Brock sitting in the
first row right in front of him and he never acknowledged him at all !



re:  a few back and comments about a more "recent" star for kids to hear about

It don't matter if the guy played 50 years ago or 10 years ago, kids think
anything older than they are is ancient history.

>
>Gee, I thought the on-field stuff was similar to when Henderson broke
>Brock's SB record...you remember, don't you ?...Rickey took the base
>out of the ground, went to the mike and declared himself to be the
>greatest base stealer of all time ???....with Brock sitting in the
>first row right in front of him and he never acknowledged him at all !
>


From what I heard on the radio this morning, Cal didn't plan the victory
lap, and did it mainly to shut the folks up and get on with the game.

I dunno, to me, Cal has more class than Henderson ever could have.


I did get a bit annoyed at the Baltimore fans who had the sign
"Luckiest fans on the face of the earth", but then, we are considering
that they're Baltimore fans 8^)


'Saw

    
     well Saw, they do have a great park, a great owner and a great player.

  I really admire Cal as well but I don't buy into all this stuff about how
he's better than other players because he has better family values.

  I've seen fathers like Cal Sr. drive their kids to the point of breaking to
make them into ball players and it's not a pretty sight. That may have worked
for Cal Jr. because he was born with hall of fame abilities but for kids
without that type of talent it makes for a real stressful childhood.

  Cal is a great player and his accomplishment was nothing short of awesome but
the way he was brought up and the "dam everything else but family values" that
friends of Newt like to talk about when discussing Cal are about as sweet as
pouring a pound of sugar into your coffee and about as healthy. 

  Rickey Henderson holds a title the same as Cal and in my book he's about
equal to Cal as a role model. Both are paid to play baseball, both worked
hard, neither is the perfect human being and neither are paid to raise our
kids. 

  George 

>  I really admire Cal as well but I don't buy into all this stuff about how
>he's better than other players because he has better family values.

All right, George, I'll bite.  Where was this ("he's better than other players
because he has better family values") said?  I'm honestly curious - I've gone
back about 12 replies and I don't see it.

The "family values" stuff is nice, but the real value is the dependability.
You're exactly right - both he and Rickey are paid to play baseball.  Rickey
begs out because he's "not mentally into it", Cal plays and plays and plays...

  It's not so much here but I've heard it on TV, people going on and on about
how great it was that Cal Sr. drove his kids to play baseball and how because
of that Cal stands for truth, justice, and the American way. 

  When I was in highschool our Catcher had a father like that. Not only did
he drive our catcher nuts, he drove us all nuts constantly coming down and
telling our coach how to run the team. 

  As for Rickey Henderson he wasn't the type to beg off in an important game.
He played the entire '93 world series with a banged up hand that hurt so much
he could hardly hold the bat. You don't get the all time record for stolen
bases by being the type of guy who's not willing to work hard.

  George

>>Gee, I thought the on-field stuff was similar to when Henderson broke
>>Brock's SB record...you remember, don't you ?...Rickey took the base
>>out of the ground, went to the mike and declared himself to be the
>>greatest base stealer of all time ???....with Brock sitting in the
>>first row right in front of him and he never acknowledged him at all !

>From what I heard on the radio this morning, Cal didn't plan the victory
>lap, and did it mainly to shut the folks up and get on with the game.

>I dunno, to me, Cal has more class than Henderson ever could have.


That was my point 'Saw.  There's no way Henderson and "class" can
be found in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence...unless
followed by the word "NOT!".

What's the noting symbol for sarcasm ?

  True Ripken has more class than Henderson but so what, class doesn't
translate into runs. 

  Both were great hitters for their respective positions but Henderson had the
ability to drive pitchers nuts even more than he drove fans nuts. Not only
would he get hits, but guys behind him got hits because the pitcher was always
having fits trying to figure out why the guy he was trying to hold on 1st was
standing on 2nd. 

  George

>
>That was my point 'Saw.  There's no way Henderson and "class" can
>be found in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence...unless
>followed by the word "NOT!".
>
>What's the noting symbol for sarcasm ?

Sorry Joe,

I've been timesharing something fierce here today and I guess I haven't
context-switched well enough.....

We're in agreement then I guess....

>  True Ripken has more class than Henderson but so what, class doesn't
>translate into runs. 



I never said it did.

I wasn't looking for a debate, I wasn't looking for a phenomenally constructed
polemic.  I was simply saying that I like Cal better than Henderson because
Cal is not an egotistical maniac.

Cal didn't find it necessary last night to pick up a microphone and tell
the world he was the best of all time, unlike Henderson.

Personally, I like that, as opposed to Henderson's brand of "ego"....


'Saw

  Well you can't expect to praise your guy, trash Henderson, and not get a
debate from Henderson fans. 

  Yeah, I agree, Ripken has more class but if a game was on the line and my
team was at bat, I'd rather see Henderson coming up to the plate than Ripken.

  For a short stop Ripken is a really fine hitter but he's just not the 
offensive force that Henderson has been throughout his career.

  George

	I watched last night, after I got home from work, and was just in time for his
	at bat in the third (or was it the second).  Anyway what came to mind in the 
	6th, as the ovation kept rolling on, was Clemente's final hit (3000th) in '72.

	Same classy reaction from the ball player and same goosebumps up and down
	my spine.



	billl

Yeah, but that's NOT what I was discussing.

I took nothing away from Henderson's accomplishments.....

> I did get a bit annoyed at the Baltimore fans who had the sign
> "Luckiest fans on the face of the earth", but then, we are considering
> that they're Baltimore fans 8^)

    I thought that was the best sign of the night.  Seriously.  Another
    tribute to Gehrig's legacy, really.
    
> It's not so much here but I've heard it on TV, people going on and on about
> how great it was that Cal Sr. drove his kids to play baseball and how because
> of that Cal stands for truth, justice, and the American way. 
    
    I think you have Cal Sr. confused with Jimmy Piersall's dad.  Cal
    Sr. was a lifetime Orioles' employee who was on the road while Cal 
    Jr. and Billy were raised mostly by Mom.  Cal Sr. is known for his
    toughness and his stoicism but not for any destructive parenting 
    traits, far as anything I've ever heard from the guy who might most
    know, Cal Jr. himself.
    
    glenn
    

Glenn, stop bringing facts into the argument!

    Had Gehrig been well, what would the record have been?
    
    Long live King Cal.
    

  Well he was 36 years old so figure about 3-4 more seasons of 154 games maybe
somewhere around 2500.

  George

I heard some of Cal's remarks last night about what Lou Gehrig would think
about all this.

The only served for reinforce my personal opinion that Cal Ripken, Jr is
a gentleman and class act.


'Saw

    
    
    This weeks SI has a great article on Cal and his quest for the streak.
    It gave me a whole new insite on the man and the game.