Conference hbahba::cam_sports

I saw a feature on CNN International awhile back that featured the
America**3 team.  Evidently, they're considered to have real chances
to win.

My impression in recent years is that the America Cup is more than
anything else a victory of technology.  The best boat wins, unless
the crew messes up completely.  Is that impression fair?

The chance that I will see any of this beyond a few sound bites is
minimal, so I'd be grateful for any info here, and I hope that the
rest of you don't wear out your next unseen keys.

Steve

  Yes, technology is important but many races are won or lost on penalties.

  This time there is a difference in the way penalties are being handled. In
previous cup competitions, the boats would go out and spend 3 hours racing
then everyone would pour into the jury room and spend all night filing and
arguing protests.

  This has changed now and judges make decisions on the spot. If someone is
found guilty of an infraction, they have to turn their boat one complete
penalty turn.

  In the 1st race of the defenders series, Dennis Conner had to turn Stars and
Stripes at the start giving America**3 a lead which they kept for the entire
race. In the 2nd race there was no penalty and Conner beat America**3. 

  Yesterday Young America beat America**3 and I believe America**3 had to make
a penalty turn.

  Other than technology and penalties, team work and tactics are important.
When Dennis Conner lost the final race to the Australians in the last race at
Newport he lost due to a tactical error in which he was leading and failed to
"cover" Australia II.

  Teamwork is also important. Once every couple days someone loses a race
because someone fails to secure a line, a sail gets stuck, someone gets
their leg caught in a line, etc.

  Today Young America goes against Stars and Stripes.

  George

I won't be in here again til Friday, FYI, so you can spare all the other
notes from overworking next unseen.  (Or is there anyone else out there
who is fascinated by this event?)

Steve

  America**3 managed a win over Young America yesterday due to a tactical error
by the Young America team. After getting off to a good start, Young America
sailed off to one side of the course while America**3 took the other. A wind
shift gave America**3 a 40 second lead by the mark which they never gave up
winning by 20 something seconds. 

  Today Young America goes against Stars and Stripes.

  In the Challenger series Team New Zealand and Nippon Challenge, currently
running one and two go head to head today.

  The current standings are something like the following. I'm doing this from
memory so it may be off a bit.

    PACT '95 Young America     5
    Team Dennis Conner,        3
    America**3, Leslie Egnot   3

    Team New Zealand                          8
    Nippon Challenge of Japan                 6
    OneAustralia                              5
    Tag Heuer Challenge of New Zealand        5
    Sydney 95                                 3
    France America 95                         2
    Spain                                     0

  First round points generally don't mean much. In the 1st round teams only get
1 point for a win. Points given go up quite a bit in following rounds and it's
not uncommon for someone to tune their boat between rounds and come from near
last and take a lead by winning the 1st 2 or 3 races in the 2nd round. 

  George

    Sailing is not a sport.
    
    Mark.

Boy, Mark, I'm sure glad I'm out of town until Friday.  I'll be able
to read what you've stirred up in one overwhelming deluge, rather than
have it trickle in piece by piece.

Just to get things off to a start on a high intellectual level:

Oh yeah?  Well, neither is truck racing.

Steve

  Ok, same as before. Let's see a dictionary definition of "sport" that
includes things like basketball, baseball, etc but not American Cup sailing.
Also, what's the gripe in sailing? Unlike figure skating there is no subjective
rating given, 1st boat across the line wins. 

  By the way, I finally did find a dictionary that has a definition of "sport"
that specifically mentions competitive activities. It was the Random House
dictionary and it went something like:

  sport ... 1. An activity involving proven athletic ability that is of a
               competitive nature.

  If you've ever watched the grinders on an American Cup yacht it should be
obvious that proven athletic ability is necessary.

  At any rate, that's different from the American Heritage dictionary in that
competition is specifically cited as an element in sport. Sill nothing about
scoring being based on objective criteria rather than a subjective evaluation. 

  George

  >    If you've ever watched the grinders on an American Cup yacht it should
  >  beobvious that proven athletic ability is necessary.
    
    IF what the grinders do is obvious athletic ability, 'saw, his cheese
    wiz and the microwave all combine ofr a similar form of athletic
    endeavor.
    
    brews
    
    ps  my wife burned up the microwave yesterday.  We're talking flames,
    smoke alarms and melted plastic.  Anybody wanna come over my house for
    some of the little darling's home cooking?  8^)

  Is there anyone who's watched a complete Americans Cup race since they put
the mini-cam on the boats who does not think that what the grinders do takes
athletic ability? 

  Or likewise for the guy who goes up the mast to untangle a sail.

  George

The difference between sports like Sailing/F1/Indy Cars and baseball/football/etc
is that the level of technology is more of a deciding factor than athletic
ability.

They are still sports in that there is an objective measure of who wins unlike
Ice Skating/etc

  Ok so is pole vaulting a sport? 

  Normally in pole vaulting the records inch up over the decades but the two
biggest jumps in records were when the poles went from bamboo to metal and when
they went from metal to fiberglass. 

  Pole vaulting is part of the decathlon which some say defines the very
essence of modern sport. 

  George 

    
    
    
    	I'm going to agree with George on this one. Every sport is effected
    by technology by some degree or another. The Pole Vault is a very good
    example. I tend not to be too concerned about the absolute height that
    jumpers get. The World Record in the PV is a joke, because the
    increased height over the years is mostly due to better poles.
    
    	But for an individual competition, assuming all jumpers have
    similar poles, the cometition is won by the athelete who is stronger,
    faster, and has the best form.
    
    	Even the running events in Track & Field have benefited greatly
    from technology. Better shoes, better running surfaces, and even better
    aerodynamic running suits (sprinters only).
    
    	Yachting, of course, is much more heavily effected by technology
    than most of the things called "sport". But there is still a lot of
    hard work (athleticism), skill, and luck needed to win on any
    particular day.
    
    	One problem with the America's Cup though. Through most of its
    history, most of the competitors were not "jumping with the same pole".
    There were rules in place forcing boats to be complete products of the
    host country (an Italian boat had to be design by an Italian, and 
    built entirely from componenets made in Italy). The USA, being the
    richest country in the world, always had the most money to 'waste' on
    10-meter yacht R&D. As a result, the America's Cup was not a fair
    competition through most of its history. The deck was stacked in favor
    of the Americans.
    
    	These rules started being relaxed in the 80's, and I have no idea
    how many restrictions are put on the boat's componenets.
    
    JimH
    

    > Is there anyone who's watched a complete Americans Cup race since they
    >putthe mini-cam on the boats who does not think that what the grinders
    >do takesathletic ability? 
    
While I haven't watched a *complete* cup race, I've watched quite a bit.  I
    don't think watching a complete race qualifies anyone, one way or the
    other.  I have been to the SD Yacht Club, and seen the real cup, does
    that make up for the fact that I have better things to do with my time
    than sit on my ass and watch all the races or a bunch of pansies
    skating around wearing feather boas?
    
    I believe there is a great deal of difference between athletic ability
    and endurance, and what the grinders exhibit is more endurance.  I have
    *no* running ability.  I'm the skinny version of 'saw--a slow white
    guy.  If I had the inclination, I could train, and finish a marathon. 
    It doesn't mean I exhibited great athletic ability, just endurance.
    
    brews

  It's "proven athletic ability", not "great athletic ability". 

  You have to prove you can grind throughout the competition to be a grinder. 

  There is other athletic ability as well such as the dexterity needed to
handle the lines while setting sails. More than one Americas Cup race has been
lost because someone flubbed their part of setting a sail causing a rip that had
to be repaired while the other boat sailed past. 

  Is it "sports" activity when a quarterback looks down field and picks the
right receiver or is that not sport because it is mental? When the tactician
reads the wind and picks the correct side of the course or decides to cover or
not cover a tack it's the same type of mental process that a quarter back does
when he reads a blitz or picks an alternate receiver. 

  There is even a physical aspect to handling the helm. ESPN had a computer
tracking system at the last America's cup that could find the position of the
boats down to a foot and display their track on a screen. When ever the owner
of America**3 took over the helm you could see an obvious wobble in the tract
of the boat that was not there when the regular helmsman had the wheel. 

  Then there's the ability of the helmsman to "feel" the wind and keep the boat
at it's optimum heading. The grinders must then feel the sail and get it
properly trimmed. If anyone is out of sync, it could cost 20 seconds over a
couple hours which is more than the difference in many races. Is that sport? I
think so. 

  George 

Let's not go down the is it a sport rathole again.

The ONE thing we've proven through all those discussions is that there
are different folks who prefer different things, and let's let it sit at that.


As to the grinders, I have friend who have crewed in boat race (though not
12 meter) and they were grinders.  One was a prop that I play rugby with.

It takes a lot of strength, and anaerobic "endurance" to do that.  More than
one has mentioned having friends who sailed as grinders who'd cough up
blood after a tough race involving lots of tacking duels -- where grinders
do the most work.

Sport or not, it's a competition no matter how you cut it, and to be the
best, you still have to pay the price in preparation and commitment.
You can still lose if you make too many errors.....


'Saw

    reply to a few back....
    
    If pole vaulting records are mostly a result of technology then
    why has Bubka been the primary record holder???
    

    
    
    >If pole vaulting records are mostly a result of technology then
    >why has Bubka been the primary record holder???
    
    
    	Bubka is far and away the best pole vaulter of the past decade.
    He has been slowly toying with the world record for as long as I can
    remember (although I don't think he has re-broken his record in the 
    past year, has he? Injured I think).
    
    	My point was that you can't compare today's PV records, set with
    pole made from modern materials (what's in a pole these days, probably
    graphite?), with PV records of 20 years ago, mostly set with aluminum
    poles. And before that, what, wood poles???
    
    	Ten years from now pole vaults could be made from some kind of
    Buckyball carbon compound that will be ultra-light and have twice
    the flexibilty of today's poles. So when the PV record approaches 
    30 feet, it will be unfair to Bubka records with those set in the 
    future. The technology will have changed.
    
    	JimH
    
    

 I don't know if I'd want to be able to pole vault 30 ft in the air but I'd
 sure like to try a more reasonable height. Sure wish you could go Pole 
 Vaulting as easily as Ice Skating........

 that's the ticket open up a Decathlon Complex. Charge admission sell Brie..

 ;^)

Bubka was getting some kind of incentive bonus every time he broke the
record.  That's why he was doing it a quarter inch at a time.

I read that somewhere -- SI I think.....

    
    
>Bubka was getting some kind of incentive bonus every time he broke the
>record.  That's why he was doing it a quarter inch at a time.
>
>I read that somewhere -- SI I think.....
    
    	That's right 'Saw. Most of the major Track Meets on the European 
    circuit over cash bonuses for World Records set at their meets. Bubka
    carefully managed when he would re-break the PV world record. He earned
    his living by breaking the record a centimeter at a time. I don't think
    he would even bother setting the record at a meet that didn't pay a
    bonus, i.e. the Olympics.
    
    JimH
    
    

|    carefully managed when he would re-break the PV world record. He earned
|    his living by breaking the record a centimeter at a time. I don't think

Yabut, I'm sure you simply forgot to say that that was
basically the ONLY way that he can make a living at being
just a pole vaulter.  It's not like the Ukraine has an 
abundance of development funds for athletes, so Bubbka
makes his living on breaking the record, and whatever
endorsement money he makes from Adidas.

Many eastern European and even African athletes work 
other jobs in their countries in order to be able to
compete at the highest levels of their sports.

=Bob=

    
>Yabut, I'm sure you simply forgot to say that that was
>basically the ONLY way that he can make a living at being
>just a pole vaulter. 
    
    	I didn't think it was neccesary to say it. I didn't
    mean to put any kind of negative spin on how Bubka (or Bubbka)
    made his money. I'm sure he got appearance money from the race
    promoters.
    
    	
>Many eastern European and even African athletes work 
>other jobs in their countries in order to be able to
>compete at the highest levels of their sports.
    
    	Yup. The African distance runners have been
    using the U.S. Road Racing circuit to support themselves
    for a while now. Schedule a couple of months  in the U.S.,
    run a 10K or 1/2 marathon on the weekends. Maybe peak
    towards a big marathon. They pick up 10 grand here and
    there for wining or placing. Then they take their 
    winnings back to Kenya or Moracco, where that money goes
    a loooooooong way.....
    
    	So =bob=, do you think our replies will cause the creation of a
    "How Eastern European and African Athletes Earn a Living" Topic???
    
    JimH :-)
    
    

Great discussion folks, but lets move the PV and running and track and
field stuff to the lovely topic we already have set up for that.....


thank ye.....

  America's Cup Trials are continuing off the coast of San Diego. The early
rounds are over and they are over half way through the Defender and Challenger
semi finals.

  There are a maximum of 4 boats in each of the two semi finals so all three
defender teams advanced but several challenger teams didn't make the cut. The
teams that made the semifinals are all the defenders:

  PACT '95 Young America
  Team Dennis Conner, Dennis Conner (on Stars and Stripes)
  America**3, Leslie Egnot (mostly woman team sponsored by Bill Koch)

and the 4 top challenger teams:

  OneAustralia, John Bertrand,
  Team New Zealand, Russel Coutts,
  Tag Heuer Challenge of New Zealand, Chris Dickerson
  Nippon Challenge of Japan, Makoto Namba

  As they get near the end of the semi final rounds, PACT '95 Young America has
clinched a spot in the Defender finals and will sail against which ever of the
other two teams survives. 

  One of the New Zealand teams has also clinched a birth (sorry I forget which)
and Nippon Challenge has been eliminated. The team that has clinched has
withdrawn from the round (they don't need any more points) so the other New
Zealand team will sail against John Bertrand and OneAustralia for the right to
sail the other boat in the challenger finals. 

  The boat that wins the challenger finals will win the Louis Vuitton Cup and
get the right to sail against the boat that wins the defender finals. If the
Challenger wins, their country and yacht club gets to take the America's Cup
home and defend it in the next match. If the defender wins, the cup will be
retained by the San Diego yacht club for the United States. 

  It's been a rough match so far. One of OneAustraila's boats sank during a
storm that struck during a match and they are now sailing with an older hull.
And about a week ago Stars and Stripes started taking on water at about 55
gallons a minute and would have sunk if support ships had not helped pump it
out on it's way back to the dock. 

  George

    Beat me to it, Mike.
    
    Mark.

    No, please, no, I beg of you all.
    
    (Vision of a LDUC appearing on the horizon)
    
    UMDan

    
    
          NO!
    
         Sailing is something Yuppies do to kill time!!

  The America**3 (the mostly woman team sponsored by Bill Koch) has filed a
protest against the Conner team because the keel of Stars was replaced after it
was damaged and almost sank. The rules do not allow keel changes during a round
but Conner's team is claiming they had no choice and had to go to an old keel
because of the damage. If America**3 wins Stars and Stripes will be eliminated
and America**3 will sail against PACT '95 Young America in the defenders final. 

  If Conner wins the protest then Stars and Stripes and America**3, will
continue their duel for the 2nd spot in the defenders finals against Young
America. Depending on how a race between Stars and Stripes and Young America
goes today it could be over or there could be a sail off between Stars and
Stripes and America**3 on Sunday. 

  Meanwhile over on the Challenger side, team New Zealand, with Russel Coutts
is the one that's clinched a birth in the finals. Team Tag Heuer Challenge of
New Zealand with Chris Dickerson is hanging on by a thread over OneAustralia
with John Bertrand (the guy who beat Denis Conner in Newport). Nippon Challenge
of Japan still seems to be racing but the paper said the other day that they
have been mathematically eliminated. 

  The two final matches (Challenger and Defender) will take place in about a
week or so. The winners will then race for the America's Cup.

  George

                     <<< Note 208.34 by HELIX::MAIEWSKI >>>

>  The two final matches (Challenger and Defender) will take place in about a
>week or so. The winners will then race for the America's Cup.

And millions, no billions, of people won't notice and won't care.

daryll

Coming from a family of men of the sea (perhaps even lusty men of the sea),
the way I see it, sailing started as an occupation.

As men often do, their leisure time can be filled with competitive endeavours
that mirror their occupations.

Is it a sport?  Perhaps not in some of the strictest definitions we use
in here.

Is it competitive?  Yes.  Is it demanding in terms of skill?  Is 
athleticism involved?  Yes, if you look at the guys who'll climb the mast,
or the grinders (who sometimes work so hard they spit up blood).

I've sailed before, and love it.  Could I ever skipper a boat?  Probably
not, I'm not that good a sailor yet....


'SAw

RE     <<< Note 208.35 by SALEM::DODA "Donald Fehr, man of intransigence" >>>

>And millions, no billions, of people won't notice and won't care.
>
>daryll

  The gauntlet has been tossed down, do I pick it up or do I walk away?

  George

Perhaps lots of folks won't notice and won't care, but what difference
does that make?

There's folks out there who don't like golf -- millions and billions.
There's folks out there who don't care about baseball -- millions and billions.

But, obviously, some folks do care.  

I like soccer and rugby, and sailing, and lots of obscure sports.  

Let's face it.  There are folks who enter a bookstore, and never make
it past the bestseller rack.  Then there are some folks who head straight
to the back and root around for the little gems that other folks don't
care about.   

There are riches in life that are often found in the back of the bookstore,
as it were.....


'Saw

    
    Do us all a favor and ignore it, George.
    
    I'll tell ya, I've followed this sort a bit, and it has got to be the
    whiniest sport I've ever seen.  Every match seems to have some sort of
    protest or something.
    
    brews		

    George, ESPN ratings seem to agree with you, personally I'd rather
    watch The Hope (golf tourney), but having said so I'll hardly criticize
    other sporting choices.
    
    but you forgot in your chivalry to mention that the women's team
    replaced their strategist with a man (unanimously agreed to by the
    woman crew).

>    I'll tell ya, I've followed this sort a bit, and it has got to be the
>    whiniest sport I've ever seen.  Every match seems to have some sort of
>    protest or something.
    
Kind of like arguments in baseball with the ump.

Or hockey players mouthing off at the ref.

Or basketball coaches "working" the ref....

Yep, sounds pretty whiney to me....

>    replaced their strategist with a man (unanimously agreed to by the
>    woman crew).

Probably because there aren't that many good women strategists around yet.

    
    'saw, you don't see near the amount of formal protests in those other
    sports that you see in 12m racing.  Arguing, yes, but not protesting.
    
    brews

    
    
        I don't think that Billions of people don't like baseball!!

I remember the moment I became a Reggie Jackson fan back in the early 70s.
The A's had just won the World Series, and some idiot reporter shoved a
mike in Reggie's face and asked, "Is the biggest moment yet?"  Reggie
favored him with a look of mild contempt and replied, "A billion Chinese
couldn't care less."

It's not that billions of people *don't like* baseball, but that billions
of people don't know it exists.

George, I would like to thank you for your reports.  The coverage over
here is dog poop, and you are the best source of information I have.

Steve

RE     <<< Note 208.39 by ONOFRE::MAY_BR "pet rocks, pogs, Dallas Cowboys" >>>

>    Do us all a favor and ignore it, George.
>    
>    I'll tell ya, I've followed this sort a bit, and it has got to be the
>    whiniest sport I've ever seen.  Every match seems to have some sort of
>    protest or something.
>    

  You haven't been watching lately. 

  Under the old system, if there was any sort of foul the only recourse the
other boat had was to raise their protest flag then work it out in committee
the night after the race.

  Under the new system a judge makes a decision on the spot and if he decides
a boat committed a foul the boat has to do a 360 degree turn in the water.

  George

    Well here are some basic criteria
    
    	Can you safely bet on it?  	That eliminates Figure skating and nba
    					basketball (and of course NHL)
    
    	Are the officials,refs too	Sailing,Figure skating, college
    	influential in outcome		basketball are out here
    
    	Can fat men play?		there goes football and bowling
    
    	Can fat men play with a lit
    	stogie in their mouth? (*)	Golf is out
    
    (*)Traditions Senior golf tourney
       lasted night on espn.

  Hey don't we have a separate notes file for this debate?

  Why is it going on in the sailing note?

  George

Just start a topic in the great figure skating debate conference.

TTom

  Fine, if I can get the moderators to agree to move all the "is sailing
a sport" notes into that file then that sounds like a good idea.

  George

    I read something to the effect that the winner of the Defender Series
    is not the automatic choice to race for the cup, ie. Conner could lose
    the Defender series and his old buddies at the SDYC would let him race
    for the cup anyway. Some obscure rule they dug up somewhere.
    
    Sort of makes a sham of the whole defender series concept.
    
    George, can you provide any further details?
    
    matt

  One problem in general with the America's Cup is that over the last century
it has been gradually transformed from an informal weekend outing for rich
gentlemen into a major world class sporting event sitting on top of a billion
dollar industry. 

  The original charter was written around the time that the Yacht America, from
the New York Yacht club defeated a fleet of British boats in one single event
to take the cup. For years the defense consisted of a single British boat
trying to defeat a fleet of American boats in what was primarily an excuse for
rich New Yorkers who summered in New Port R.I. to socialize with the few
British (mostly nobles) who could accompany the single boat across the
Atlantic. 

  Over the century between the 1st and latest defense the America's cup
evolved. One of the early changes was that different countries (read Ireland)
started competing for the right to challenge for the cup. Another early change
is that only one defender boat, instead of the entire fleet, would sail to
defend the cup. 

  Note, at this point it was still primarily and excuse for the rich of New
York to socialize with the rich of Great Britain. Meanwhile a few officials of
the New York Yacht club took the responsibilities of seeing that the match was
fair, a defender was selected, and that the Champagne and caviar were kept cold
although not necessarily in that order. 

  There was a gap in time somewhere after WW I where the matches were not held.
Then at some point they resumed and a new and more up to date New York Yacht
club decided to run the event more like a modern sporting event and less like a
gentlemen's outing. So even though the old rules still existed giving great
authority to the defender, a new set of standards was adopted making the
occasion look more like a sporting event. 

  When Australia II finally beat Dennis Conner and Freedom the Cup went "down
under" to Australia and the Yacht Club at Freemantal ran the cup more by modern
New York Yacht Club standards than by the letter of the original charter.
Dennis Conner won the right to challenge in his new boat "Stars and Stripes"
and won the cup for the San Diego Yacht Club and the United States. 

  When the Cup returned to the U.S. in San Diego the everything fell apart. A
challenger from New Zealand read the original charter and found out that the
race had only been conducted under the modern rules through a gentlemen's
agreement and the rules as written were full of loopholes. 

  One loophole was that anyone from any non-defender Yacht Club could issue a
challenge any time they wanted and specify the type of boat. The guy from N.Z.
(sorry I forget his name), issued a challenge for a large class of boats with a
longer hull of which he had the only one in the world. The San Diego Yacht Club
which was in the process of setting up a traditional type challenge was caught
off guard and forced into this impromptu defense. 

  Realizing they had no chance to win and that they were stuck with the
original wording of the charter they went once more to Dennis Conner who
decided to defend the cup in a Catamaran claiming that if you added the length
of the two hulls together the total matched the length specified in the
challenge. 

  The two sides went to court in New York (which had jurisdiction over the
charter) and the judge decided that since no race had taken place there was
no dispute to resolve. She ordered them to race 1st then take their case to
court. 

  So both sides returned to San Diego and the race took place with the Cat
doing a "horizon job" on the longer N.Z. boat taking the 1st two in a best of
three (another story in itself). Both sides then returned to the New York court
and the judge decided that N.Z. did have the right to challenge and that the
San Diego Yacht Club had successfully defended the cup. 

  To prevent future challenges of this sort, the San Diego Yacht Club arranged
for a delegation from Japan to be waiting with pens in hand as the Cat crossed
the finish line so that a "proper" challenge could be issued. And that is
the state of the America's Cup today. 

  So yes, there exists a set of rules for the America's cup which is by any
modern standard archaic and that set of rules, among other things, provides
that the defending Yacht Club as the right to ask any boat to defend the cup.

  However through careful management the San Diego Yacht Club has adopted the
New York Yacht Club's more modern standards and has managed through the last
two events to make the event look more like a modern sporting event than a
gentlemen's weekend although for many it is still considered important to see
that the Champagne and caviar are kept cold. 

  George 

Great job George.  That about sums it up.

I've met some of the hoity-toity folks from Newport who though it was
unconscionable that Dennis Connor lost the Cup.  *My* neck won't bend
far enough back to get *my* nose that far in the air.  8^)


If you've done any reading on it, I've seen some pictures of some of the
early boats in the challenge and they were really something.  Huge, huge
boats, with more than one mast in many cases.  

And with noble names too: Repulse, Vigilant, Resolute , Intrepid....


Cool stuff....

    
  >And with noble names too: Repulse, Vigilant, Resolute , Intrepid....
    
    Sounds like the Vermont Castings lineup of woodstoves.
    
    Mark.

    
    Those Easterners got what they deserved.    Conner had wanted the Cup
    races in SD where the conditions are better for it, but the scum bags
    refused to listen to reason.  Now that they are eld where they belong,
    the NYYC has no control.
    
    brews

>  >And with noble names too: Repulse, Vigilant, Resolute , Intrepid....
>    
>    Sounds like the Vermont Castings lineup of woodstoves.
    
Wow.  I didn't know that.

I can't conceive of a woodstove named Resolute....8^)

  Team Dennis Conner must have learned something from sailing that cat boat a
few years back. The team seems to have 9 lives. 

  With PACT '95 Young America having clinched a spot in the defender finals
some time ago Team Dennis Conner and America**3, who finished the semi-finals
tied 3-3, had a single race to see who would advance to the final defender
round. On the water "Mighty Marry", the America**3 boat did a "horizon job" on
Conner's "Stars and Stripes" beating it by about 3 minutes. 

  But for reasons which are not entirely clear, the San Diego Yacht club has
decided to let all 3 boats advance to the final seeding Young America, A**3 and
S&S with 2, 1, and 0 points respectively. 

  The challengers complained that the San Diego Yacht club is compromising the
tournament but they are well within both the rules and the spirit of the
original America's Cup charter. 

  Stars and Stripes has been relatively slow compared to the other two boats
with most of their wins coming from experience but significant changes are
allowed between rounds and it is not uncommon for a boat to show a dramatic
increase in speed after these modifications.

  No doubt the San Diego Yacht club would like to give Conner every chance and
insure that they have the fastest boat going against the challenger. It also
gives the sponsors of both boats a few extra weeks of advertising and with
the series going from tape on ESPN2 to live on ESPN they now have the advantage
of keeping the name Dennis Conner on the air.

  Controversal by most standards but small stuff for America's Cup,
  George

    
    	I read that all 3 sydicates had to agree to the SDYC ruling. Which
    will allow all 3 teams go into the final round. The international jury
    who is hearing race protests, proposed this compromise. As part of the
    compromise all current (7) protests that were filed during the
    semi-final round were dropped. So it seems that sportsmanship won out.
    The best team will be decided on the water and not by a committee.
    
    Ron

    Sportsmanship didn't win out, money did. Three boats means more races,
    more TV money and more sponsorship money.

    
    But Connr got jobbed on at least 3 other races in which he won, but
    later the SDYC decided not to coun.
    
    brews

  The finals are about to start. One listing I saw said ESPN will have the
defenders on at 4PM today but better check your listings to be sure. The
challengers will be on tape on ESPN2. 

  The challengers, Team N.Z. and oneAustralia, will hold a best of 9 series.
The 3 defenders will have a round robin that goes about the same length. Or so
they say, that remains to be seen. 

  Yesterday was a big day in that under the new rules the contenders have to
pull their boats from the water and show everyone their keel. This is fairly
new to America's Cup. 

  A friend of mine was telling me an interesting story of the original Yacht
America. Turns out that it won the 1st cup in Great Britain back in 1851. Then
after winning it was bought by someone in England and stayed there for about 10
years. 

  Then when the Civil War broke out in the states, it was bought by someone
from the South and used to run Union blockades. It was eventually caught in a
river near Washington and sunk but raised after the war. 

  It competed in several more America's Cup defenses and other races late in
the 19th century then did time as a training ship and tourist attraction for
the Navy at Annapolis. For reasons not entirely clear it was broken up for scrap
in 1945. 

  Too bad it didn't last just a bit longer, had it made it into the '60s when
the America's Cup started to gain popularity it probably would have been around
forever. 

  Well ok, not forever but you know what I mean,
  George

  In the 1st race of the finals Mighty Mary of the "mostly women's team"
defeated Young America. Young America took the lead at the start but failed to
cover as Mighty Mary crossed behind MM took the lead and never looked back. 

  I saw the end of the race on ESPN and they were talking about Young America
having problems but they didn't say what they were while I was watching. They
also said that Mighty Mary seemed to have gotten faster during the break
between the semi-finals and the finals. 

  With Young America spotted 2 points and MM spotted 1, this evens them up at 2
points a piece with Stars and Stripes trailing at zero yet to race. Stars and
Stripes will go today against MM. 

  I've heard no report on a challenger race but the paper says that team N.Z.
and oneAustraila will race today. They will be racing in a best of 9 to see
who gets the right to challenge for the America's Cup. So far Team N.Z. has
been virtually unbeatable on the water.

  George

    George, YA had to replace a torn sail which made for 5 minutes of
    interesting viewing.  Decision had to be made whether two tacks had to
    be made or to replace while under full steam (they tacked).  This
    happened as they were 18 secs behind.

  I watched some of the America's Cup Tuesday afternoon on ESPN. Having been
beaten in the 1st race by Mighty Mary, Young America was trailing Stars and
Stripes when I tuned in. They made a race of it but Dennis Conner and his crew
had little trouble handing Young America it's 2nd loss. That brought the point
standings in the defender final to: 

    Young America   2
    Mighty Mary     2
    Stars & Stripes 1

  There's a slogan they keep using on the air to describe the defender final.
It goes "three minus one equals three". It's a reference to the fact that the
semifinals was suppose to eliminate one of the three defenders leaving two for
the finals but after "eliminating" one of the three boats they still seem to
have three left. 

  The challengers are griping about it but not that loudly. They seem resigned
to the fact that the defenders have a great deal of leeway on how the defender's
series is run. 

  There is speculation as to why Young America is no longer dominant on the
water. Up until the final round they had been beating the other two boats
regularly but now the other boats seem faster by comparison. Some say that the
other boats got quicker, others say Young America slowed down. 

  One bit of speculation that seemed to make sense was that the Young America
syndicate anticipated heavier winds in April and returned the boat for those
conditions. The winds have been unusually light which may be negating any
advantage they would have gotten from those changes. 

  Meanwhile over on the Challenger course Team New Zeland's "Black Magic"
continues to dominate their opponent. Virtually unbeatable in the earlier
rounds they have continued to show superior boat speed and good crewmenship
as they did a "horizon job" on their opponent John Bertrand's oneAustralia.

  Quite possibly the 2nd fastest challenger boat also belongs to oneAustralia
and is currently sitting on the bottom under 550 feet of water along with 11 of
the teams best sails. The boat sank during a storm in an earlier round. The
team went back to their old boat and won the 2nd spot in the finals anyway
but they seem to be no match for Black Magic.

  Yesterday Stars & Stripes went against Mighty Mary and the challengers
started their 2nd match in their best of 9 but the wind died down and both
races were canceled for running over the maximum time. Both of those races
have been rescheduled for today.

  George

Black Magic is a mighty pretty boat.  Black, with the silver fern on the
side.

Reminds me of the All Blacks....

  The defender series is getting tight. After the weekend's racing the score
is now all tied up:

    Young America   3
    Mighty Mary     3
    Stars & Stripes 3

  The plan is that if it ends in a 3 way tie Stars & Stripes will be eliminated
and the other two boats will race but I wouldn't bet a lot of money that the
rules wouldn't change. Considering that the boats above started with a seed of
2, 1, and 0 respectively, Stars & Stripes has clearly been the boat to beat
this round. 

  This is not all that uncommon. Conner often starts slow then builds up as the
final gets closer. 

  Meanwhile over on the challenger course, oneAustralia is about finished.
Yesterday trailing 3-1 in the series they went across the starting line early
and had to do a complete turn. They ended up losing by over 2 minutes. 

  If this were a battle of wooden ships and iron men oneAustralia would be
about ready to strike their colors. At this point trailing 4-1 they would have
to win four races in a row. One lose and they are out. 

  George 

  The Challenger series is over. Team New Zealand sailing in Black Magic
defeated John Bertrand's oneAustralia five races to one to take the Louis
Vuitton Cup. They have earned the right to challenge the American boat
representing the San Diego Yacht Club for the America's Cup. 

  Meanwhile over on the defenders course Dennis Conner continued to work his
way toward the finals by defeating Young America by over a minute. After taking
advantage of a wind change the day before to beat Mighty Mary, Young America
ended up on the short end of a wind change yesterday and lost about a minute to
Stars & Stripes on the 1st upwind leg. Both boats went on to have sail problems
but Stars & Stripes held on for the win. 

  The standings are now

  Stars & Stripes      4
  Young America        4
  Mighty Mary          3

  Not counting the 2, 1, 0 seeding each team has earned the following points
on the water during the final rounds.

  Stars & Stripes      4
  Young America        2
  Mighty Mary          2

  George

>  The Challenger series is over. Team New Zealand sailing in Black Magic
>defeated John Bertrand's oneAustralia five races to one to take the Louis
>Vuitton Cup. They have earned the right to challenge the American boat
>representing the San Diego Yacht Club for the America's Cup. 


They beat them like a red-headed stepchild.....

  Three months of sailing and 30 some odd defender races has determined
nothing. As of today with a maximum of 3 races left (that is unless they
change the rules again), all three defenders are still very much in contention.

  The mostly women crew of Might Mary was on the verge of elimination but
they managed to defeat Young America on Saturday to stay alive. That brings the
standings for the final round to:

  Stars & Stripes        5
  Young America          4
  Mighty Mary            4

  The two remaining scheduled races are

      Stars & Stripes v. Young America
      Stars & Stripes v. Mighty Mary

  If Stars & Stripes wins either race, they will have 6 points and will defend
the America's Cup against Team New Zealand. If Stars & Stripes loses both races
then there will be a 3 way tie at 5 each. Under the agreement formed at the
beginning of this round Stars & Stripes would be eliminated and the other two
boats would have a single race to determine who defends the cup. 

  Yesterday the scheduled match between Stars & Stripes v. Young America was
canceled due to shifting winds. They will try again today.

  George

    Yawn.

    How does S & S stack up against the NZ challenger, which, if I remember
    correctly, won the Challenger series rather handily?
    
    UMDan

Now that Mark has opened his mouth and in- and exhaled, I want to tell George
again that he has been my best source of information on this event, which I
find both athletically and sociologically fascinating.

Just sorry I can't see any of it.

Steve

RE     <<< Note 208.72 by ODIXIE::ZOGRAN "Youngest one's walking - OH NO!" >>>

>    How does S & S stack up against the NZ challenger, which, if I remember
>    correctly, won the Challenger series rather handily?
    
  One problem trying to figure that out is that like the American and National
leagues in baseball, no defender races any challenger until the finals. So
it's hard to compare the two fields. Maybe the 3 defenders are all as fast
as Black magic then again maybe not.

  Also once the defender and challenger series end, all the teams from each
side pool their resources and trade technology. They even get outside help. For
example once the the original Stars & Stripes won the challenger series down in
Fremantle NASA gave them some special material to put on their hull which made
them faster during the cup challenge itself. They didn't want to give it to
Stars & Stripes earlier because there were 2 other U.S. syndicates challenging
for the cup, Tom Blackwell's and one from the NY Yacht Club.

  Most pundits feel that Black Magic is the fastest boat on the water but then
none of them are ever likely to count Dennis Conner out.

  George

    
    	Before yesterday's race began and then got cancelled. Mighty Mary
    was out getting America Cubed warmed up. Which irritated Dennis
    Conners and the Stars and Stripes crew. They didn't like the fact
    that MM and A3 were working together to try and oust S+S.
    	If S+S wins today there will be no final race tomorrow. No need
    to race tomorrow because S + S would have eliminated everyone else.

  The defenders have now gone as far as possible without anyone being
eliminated. Yesterday Young America defeated Stars & Stripes to earn their
5th point. The standings are now:

  Stars & Stripes        5
  Young America          5
  Mighty Mary            4

  This leaves a maximum of 2 races to go with all 3 boats still in the chase.

  Today Stars & Stripes will sail against the mostly women team on Mighty Mary.
If Stars & Stripes wins, they defend the cup. If Mighty Mary wins then they
will end the regular final round in a tie and by prior agreement Stars &
Stripes will be eliminated. Young America and Might Mary would then have a
single race to determine who defends the cup. 

  Yesterday's race was decided simply on boat speed. There were relatively few
shifts in the wind and Young America sailing on the left side of the course
simply beat Stars & Stripes to the 1st down wind Mark. From there Young
America's boat speed was enough to keep them in front of Conner and his crew
for the remaining 5 legs of the race. 

  A bit more controversy erupted when Mighty Mary went out before the race to
help Young America warm up. Normally there is no cooperation between boats
until after the defender and challenger series are completed but it was in
both boats interest to see Stars & Stripes lose so the other two boats
cooperated by racing a warm up and by sharing weather information. They are
expected to do the same today prior to the race between Stars & Stripes and
Mighty Mary.

  George

  No race yesterday.

  Stars & Stripes v. Mighty Mary is scheduled for today.

  If S&S wins, they defend the cup. If they lose they are eliminated and
Young America has a single race against MM to decide who defends the cup.

  George

    
    
         Plus the Federation has slapped MM and YM on the hand for helping
    each other on Monday.
    
    
    Chap

  The defender's series is finally over, Denis Conner and Stars & Stripes beat
Mighty Mary eliminating them and Young America so Team Denis Conner will defend
the cup against Team New Zealand and their boat Black Magic. 

  Seeming out of the race Stars & Stripes overcame a several minute deficit on
the final down wind leg when Mighty Mary sailed off to one side of the course
failing to cover Stars & Stripes who sailed off to the other side and found
better wind. When Mighty Mary did try to cross they sailed into a "hole" in the
wind and became nearly becalmed while Stars & Stripes managed to find enough
air to keep going. 

  It was anything but a pretty race. Both boats made errors as the start, both
had problems finding a breeze and Stars & Stripes even blew out a sail while
overtaking the becalmed Mighty Mary. 

  The America's Cup challenge itself will begin around May 6th as Team Denis
Conner defends against Team New Zealand. With Stars & Stripes being the slowest
of the defender's boats, it's not clear which boat Conner's team will use. It
is within the rules for them to defend the cup using one of the other two
boats, Mighty Mary or Young America. Conner said in yesterday's press
conference that he would worry about that tomorrow. 

  George 

    An incredible mistake by Dellenbach. With a 4-minute lead, the only way
    to lose is to sail off to the other side of the course. Just stay in
    the same patch of ocean and 4-minutes is impossible to overcome. I'd
    like to hear his reasoning on this one. Leslie Egnot and the rest of
    the women's team must be real thrilled with Koch for putting this bozo
    on board.

  It was the women's idea to put him on board. Koch wanted to stay with the all
woman team but the women insisted that Dellenbach take over as tactician. Once
he did they all agreed that it improved the dynamics of their team.

  However Koch and the guy leading the PACT '95 Young America syndicate come of
looking like real idiots for allowing Dennis Conner back into the finals once
they had him eliminated. 

  George

    >Leslie Egnot and the rest of    the women's team must be real thrilled
    >with Koch for putting this bozo    on board.
    
    MM was getting blown out until the put this "bozo" on board.  They
    would've been out of it long ago, if they hadn't.
    
    brews

    >  However Koch and the guy leading the PACT '95 Young America syndicate
    >come oflooking like real idiots for allowing Dennis Conner back into
    >the finals oncethey had him eliminated. 
    
    No, they come off looking like sportsmen, as they recognized that
    
    
    brews

  According to the Boston Globe, Team Dennis Conner has cut a deal with PAC '95
that will allow Dennis Conner and his crew to use the boat Young America to
defend the America's Cup against Team New Zealand's boat Black Magic. This was
done primarily because everyone recognized that while Stars & Stripes won, it
is the slowest of the 3 boats. 

  There is a lot of work that has to be done in a few days. Oddly enough much
of the work has to do with sponsors since various companies have paid a fair
amount of money to have their logo put in various sails and other parts of the
boat. 

  The task is made easier by the fact that Young America was designed and built
by people who have worked with Conner before. Also Young America uses sails
manufactured by a company started by Stars & Stripes tactician Tom Widen making
them more compatible with the sails used by Conner's crew. The fact that
America**3 uses different sails was a major reason they didn't select Mighty
Mary which most pundits agree is the fastest boat. 

  Word is that the mermaid painted on Young America's hull will stay. 

  George 

  The Globe had the schedule for the America's Cup. Young America with team
Dennis Conner will defend the cup for the San Diego Yacht club against Black
Magic from New Zealand in a best of nine series. First boat to win 4 races wins
the match. 

  The 1st race is scheduled for Saturday May 6th. The 2nd and 3rd are scheduled
for Monday and Tuesday May 8th and 9th. After that they are scheduled about 2
races every 3 days but that could change due to wind or other weather. 

  George 

    
    
      Best of nine first to win 4??  Check your arithmetic Georgie???
    
    
    Chap

    
    >> Magic from New Zealand in a best of nine series. First boat to 
    >> win 4 races wins the match. 
    
       Best of nine would be first boat to win *5* wins the match.

  Oops, too much baseball on the brain.

  Yes, 1st to win 5.

  George

That's a change.

It used to be best of seven, if I remember correctly.

    And baseball quit the best of 9 after the infamous 1919 series which
    Burns re-reviewed the other night.  What's that reduced to price wise
    now; didn't catch the  price in Sams the other night.

RE      <<< Note 208.89 by CAMONE::WAY "USS Largato SS-371, In Memoriam" >>>

>That's a change.
>
>It used to be best of seven, if I remember correctly.

  That may be. Under the original charter the format is to be agreed upon by
the participants.

  If they can't agree then it's a best of 3 with the 1st and 3rd matches being
a single long sail to wind and back and the 2nd match being a single long
triangle with the 1st leg to wind and the 2nd and 3rd legs beam reaches. 

  During the infamous "Aircraft Carrier v. Catamaran" they couldn't agree on
anything so they used the format from the charter. All of the other modern
races have been under an agreed format.

  George

Yes, parts of that I remember.

In fact, I believe that for this Cup, they decided to remove the
reach leg, feeling that the reach really didn't do much for the competition.
I think it's just beat and run.  

I could be wrong, though....

'Saw

    I seam to recall one of them Beam reaches at the last OPP - Can't
    remember if it was tcm or farley

    I'm pretty sure that was a Kev reach that lat left us all in the
    "drink".
    
    
    billl
    

RE      <<< Note 208.92 by CAMONE::WAY "USS Largato SS-371, In Memoriam" >>>

>In fact, I believe that for this Cup, they decided to remove the
>reach leg, feeling that the reach really didn't do much for the competition.
>I think it's just beat and run.  

  Yes this is what I've seen. Three beats to wind, three spinnaker runs, no
reach. 

  Although in the final defender race Mighty Mary ended up going cross lots a
lot more than they had planned. That contributed to losing their 40 some odd
boat length lead :*)} 

  George 

>  Although in the final defender race Mighty Mary ended up going cross lots a
>lot more than they had planned. That contributed to losing their 40 some odd
>boat length lead :*)} 

Nah, they just thought that they heard someone shouting to them
		
		Heave to, and prepare to be boarded!


8^)

  The America's Cup challenge is finally underway. New Zealand's Black Magic
took the 1st of the best of 9 series on Saturday against team Dennis Conner
sailing in the boat Young America. 

  This time it was Dennis Conner's team that ended up on the wrong side of the
course while Black Magic benefited from a wind shift. Both Conner and his
tactician Tom Whiten seemed to be calling for the boat to come about on the 1st
leg but helmsmen Paul Conyard stayed on course and ended up on the wrong side
of the wind change. 

  On the final leg, leading by over 2 minutes, Black Magic stayed between Young
America and the final mark avoiding the mistake Mighty Mary had made in the
final race of the defenders series where they lost 45 boat lengths on the one
final down wing leg. 

  Black Magic now leads the series 1-0. If they go on to win they will take the
cup down to New Zealand where they will defend it in about 3 years. If that
happens there may not be a defenders series since New Zealand hardly ever
enters more than one boat in the America's Cup. 

  George

Stick a fork in them, they're done.....

    
    	Dennis Conner got beat in '83 with the winged keel. He is just
    plain losing to a faster boat this year. Once New Zealand wins, we will
    probably here about some new technical break through. Helmsmanship can
    not over come the speed factor of New Zealand.
    
    Ron

  Dennis Conner is recognized as the best sailor in America's Cup racing today
and perhaps the best ever. Yes he lost back in '83 with a slower boat and he's
behind now, but he made it this far coming from behind in a slower boat (both
in standings and in the final race itself) so I wouldn't say it's over yet. 

  And in spite of losing in '83, he's been part of 2 or 3 successful cup
defenses sailing as tactician for Ted Turner back before the '83 race and
defending on the cat and he also mounted a successful challenge with Stars and
Stripes at Freemantle to win the cup back. 

  Yesterday's race was a horizon job. Black Magic won by a good 4 minutes.

  George

    Just out of curiosity...if Dennis Conner is, in fact, the "best sailor
    in America's Cup racing today and perhaps the best ever", isn't it
    ironic then that he was soundly beaten in the defender series only to
    be inivited along for his marketing ability?  
    
    If he is the "best ever" who are these trained monkeys that keep
    beating him?
    
    
    billl

"Best ever" depends on who you talk to.

There are some from the Marblehead contingent and the Newport contingent
who would say otherwise.....

He does wear the ingnominious mantle of being the only man ever to lose
the America's Cup.  I have my doubts as to his ability to win this one.

What I'm hoping for is a good change in the weather, with much stronger
winds off San Diego than have been seen up to now.  Perhaps that might
make Young America fare better.


'Saw

  Every time Dennis has lost it's been in a slower boat and on occasion he wins
in a slower boat. I've never known of him to lose an America's Cup regatta in a
competitive boat. 

  As for being invited back, yes he lost by the original rules in the slowest
boat and was invited back but how does that detract from his abilities? He went
on to win the finals in that slowest boat. 

  As for being the only person to lose the America's Cup, that's overhyped.
Throughout the 19th century the American's won mostly because the race was one
challenger against a number of American boats. During the periods just after
WWI and WWII, the American's had a technological advantage since we could
devote more time to building yachts while the rest of the world was recovering
from war. 

  On the water, Dennis and his crew alternate between dominating the opposition
with competitive boats and pulling off remarkable come backs in boats that are
barges by comparison to their opponents. No experienced America's Cup racer
ever counts Dennis Conner out of a match at least until the match is over
and maybe not even then.

  George

    these "sailing" type are all "brie and Cabernet" types.  No REAL men,
    there.
    
    JaKe
    

>>  Every time Dennis has lost it's been in a slower boat and on occasion he 
>>  wins in a slower boat. I've never known of him to lose an America's Cup 
>>  regatta in a competitive boat. 

	Hate to do this to you George, since the majority of your notes
	offer the most insight and the most knowlegdable responses about
	the America's Cup, but Dennis Conner *lost* the America's Cup in
	Newport in 1983, not his boat. 

	Yes, the "winged keel" gave the Aussie's an advantage, but Conner
	still led the best of seven series 3-1 (I think, this is from memory),
	he then lost the next two races, and in the seventh race he held
	a commanding lead, only to pull a huge blunder (similar to Mighty 
	Mary in the final race this year) ... all he had to do was keep the 
	same line as the Aussies in that race and he would have won the race, 
	and the cup ... Dennis Conner is probably the most famous sailor 
	today, and he is very good, but he has lost matches that he
	could have/should have won ...

	The rest of your note I agree with, the US had a HUGE advantage
	in technology (and the rules) in the beginning of the America's
	Cup matches ... one of the rules that helped so much was that
	all parts of the boat had to be from the country that was sponsoring
	the boat ... 

	Vinny - Rermembering that the Aussies were the nicest people in
		Newport that summer - and that was before they won! :-)

RE          <<< Note 208.108 by ILBBAK::SILVESTRI "I have no answers" >>>

>	Hate to do this to you George, since the majority of your notes
>	offer the most insight and the most knowlegdable responses about
>	the America's Cup, but Dennis Conner *lost* the America's Cup in
>	Newport in 1983, not his boat. 

  Everyone at the time said Australia II was faster than Freedom. He may have
made a mistake (who doesn't) but my original point holds, he made that mistake
and lost while he was in a slower boat. 

  Also, Conner has won more races than he's lost with that "mistake" of not
covering the other boat. His crew has a remarkable record of anticipating which
way the wind will shift and more often than not they are right when they make
that "mistake" and win by an even larger margin. 

  And finally, everyone else makes that same mistake from time to time so
Conner is hardly alone. Again most often it's because they are taking a gamble
trying to anticipate a wind shift. 

  So yes, Conner has made mistakes (as has everyone else) but he still has not
lost in a competitive boat and he's had occasion to win in a slower boat. 

  George 

Try grinding Jake.

I've got a buddy, a prop I used to play rugby with who used to go down to
Newport and be a grinder on a boat.   He said it was not unusual for
a grinder to cough up blood after a tough race.

He said that in terms of sheer physical output, grinding was harder than
playing prop.


'Saw

  Hopes grow dim for the defenders in the America's Cup. Once again Black Magic
pulled away from Dennis Conner's crew in Young America to win by over a minute.
Conner's crew tried several tricks early on including a maneuver to try to push
Black Magic over the start line early and a tacking duel later on but to no
avail. The Black Boat from New Zealand used it's boat speed and seamanship to
pull away for another easy win.

  Every day Dennis Conner's crew is asked if they regret giving up Stars &
Stripes for the PAC '95 boat Young America but they all agree it was the right
decision. The one exception is that Conner's tactician Tom Whiten claims that
Stars & Stripes was a more comfortable boat to sleep on while being towed out
to the start line but he's happy with Young America during the race.

  Black Magic now leads the best of 9 series 3-0. 

  George

  Well they all tried to build the fastest boats they could afford and all the
boats are relatively fast. Black Magic is simply a remarkable boat with a
remarkable crew that has been tuned really well. 

  As for Conner, they did the best they could. Lack of funds restricted them
from building a faster boat to begin with so boat speed is the main reason why
he switched from Stars & Stripes to Young America for the actual defense.

  Conner's team won the defenders series over Bill Koch's team and the PAC '95
team in the slowest boat, Stars & Stripes and in doing so won the right to
defend the cup. From that point there were 4 boats available: 

    Stars & Stripes - His boat
    Young America   - The PAC '95 boat that dominated up to the defender final
    Mighty Mary     - Bill Koch's boat with the mostly women team
    America**3      - Bill Koch's older boat used early in the defender trials

  He picked Young America mostly because his sails were more compatible with
Young America than with Mighty Mary.

  Also keep in mind that the difference between these boats is extremely small.
A race typically goes about 3 hours so if a boat wins by 3 minutes (a "horizon
job") that's a difference in boat speed of about 1.5%

  George

    Can you stick an old Olds 442 engine in the bottom of the boat?
    
    NAZZ

  As long as it's for ballast only and you don't fire it up.

  :*)}
  George

  I'm sitting here in front of my tube watching Black Magic on ESPN doing
another horizon job on Team Stars & Stripes and their boat Young America. The
Kiwi's have about a 4 minute lead with just a couple minutes to go. 

  What's amazing is how popular this is down in New Zealand. Black Magic has a
spinnaker on board with the signatures of over 300,000 people from back home.
They are saying that 85% of the TV sets in New Zealand are tuned into the
coverage.

  And there's the gun.

  One more win by Black Magic and the cup goes south once again.

  .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... 
  .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... 
  .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... 
  .... .... and here comes Young America.

  George

Not much to do in New Zealand...

My rugby team went on tour there the year before I joined.  They loved it.
But they were telling me that there are folks on the south island who've
never been to the north island....

Winning the America's Cup will surely pump them up for a long time.

I hope that Black Magic's crew does the Haka when they win....

  I read in the paper today that a guy named Doug Peterson designed Black
Magic. He was also the guy who designed America**3 for the last defense. Baring
the greatest come back in the history of sport, it looks like he'll end up with
his 2nd America's Cup victory. 

  The New Zealanders are saying that if they win they will employ new rules
that make it more difficult for individuals to shop around for the country and
syndicate that is the highest bidder. Also they will prefer challenges from
real yacht clubs, not "paper" yacht clubs. 

  Also, word is that the New York yacht club will mount a challenge if the cup
goes south. They have declined to enter the defenders series for the right to
defend the cup for the San Diego Yacht Club. 

  George 

Dennis Connor has REALLY packed on the pounds since the last time I 
got a good look at him.

Perhaps if he took a dive overboard, Young America might only be 5 or 6
minutes behind at the end of the next race....8^)

  Well it's over. In what has come to be called the "Slaughter on the water",
Team New Zealand sailed off over the horizon once again and this time they get
to take the cup with them as sail off to New Zealand after defeating Dennis
Conner and Young America five zip. 

  It was perhaps the most one sided race since the original yacht America 1st
took the cup from the British back in the mid 19th century. Not only did Black
Magic win every race, they lead at every mark and and won each race by a large
margin. 

  The boat from New Zealand was decisive not only in the finals but in the
entire regatta. Not only did they overwhelm the defenders but they trounced
all challengers as well only losing two matches and including only one defeat
on the water to oneAustralia in the Challengers finals. 

  Normally the cup is defended every 3 years but New Zealand is expected to hold
off and defend the cup in 1999. 

  Also the New York yacht club is expected to mount a challenge. Unlike sailing
for the defenders where syndicates from the country holding the cup compete for
the right to defend the cup for which ever yacht club holds it, when yacht
clubs challenge in a foreign country if they win they earn the right to take
the cup back to their own yacht club. 

  The New York Yacht club, which held the cup for over a century, competed for
the cup down in Freemantle but declined to try to defend it for the San Diego
yacht club. They are expected to go down to New Zealand in 1999 to try to
regain the cup both for the United States and for themselves. 

  George 

    George,
    
    Any speculation as to why the NZ boat was so much faster?  The last
    time the US lost the cup the Aussies had the "winged keel".  Was there
    anything like that for this race?  Or was their boat just that much
    better?  Hard to believe that the US got pounded that bad (5 horizon
    jobs).
    
    Funny, not much seems to be made of this loss like the last one.
    
    UMDan 

>    Funny, not much seems to be made of this loss like the last one.
    
There's nothing like your first one, you know.....



The only folks that seem to be happy about this are the Newport folks.
They want the races back there BADLY, and they're happy that fat Dennis
lost.

If the New York Yacht club gets it back near the turn of the century (well, 
wait, it would be in the next century, because the defense would probably be
February 2000) then they'd defend in Newport.


This loss doesn't seem so bad because a) you knew that Connor was running the
US boat so it was to be expected, and b) you knew that when Black Magic
hit the first mark of the final, she'd win....

The Kiwis are fun people -- the trip to Auckland in 1999/2000 should be
fun for the challengers....


'Saw

One last time, thanks for the reporting, George.

Steve

RE    <<< Note 208.122 by ODIXIE::ZOGRAN "Youngest one's walking - OH NO!" >>>
>                               -< Why so fast? >-
>    Any speculation as to why the NZ boat was so much faster?  

  Both Black Magic, which won this time and America**3 which won last time were
designed by Doug Peterson who seems to have a knack for building boats that are
faster than anyone else. No one's sure why. 

  Also remember that when people say "faster" they are talking about a very
small margin. If a boat builds up a 2 minute lead in a 3 hour race that's a
difference of a little over 1% in boat speed. At 7 knots that comes to a
difference of about 7 hundredths of a nautical mile per hour. 

>The last
>    time the US lost the cup the Aussies had the "winged keel".  Was there
>    anything like that for this race?  Or was their boat just that much
>    better?  

  As I said no one is sure but the consensus is that it is a combination of
factors. Also some have speculated that Dennis and his crew didn't really
have time to learn how to trim Young America properly. Normally it takes
a month for a crew to learn a new boat.

  George

    
    George,
    
    I thought that a significant reason for the difference in speed was
    that the newer design has the boat riding higher on the water and
    therefore less wind is needed to drive it at the same speed.  Thus, it
    is faster.  The few moments that I saw of the Americas Cup suggested
    that this was the biggest reason.
    
    Marc
    

    Of course changing boats in the middle of the "playoffs" would seem
    unusual except to us long suffering hockey fans who watch, especially
    in the Bruins case, a ceaseless shuffle between minor leagues and nhl
    right during the playoffs.
    
    In fact didn't the bruins have one player playing for two different
    cups at the same time and nearly the same day?

RE                    <<< Note 208.126 by CSC32::MACGREGOR >>>
    
>    I thought that a significant reason for the difference in speed was
>    that the newer design has the boat riding higher on the water and
>    therefore less wind is needed to drive it at the same speed.  Thus, it
>    is faster.  The few moments that I saw of the Americas Cup suggested
>    that this was the biggest reason.
    
  That could be but I doubt it's that simple. If that were all there is to it,
sail boat designers would have discovered that hundreds of years ago and they'd
all be as high up as they could get. 

  There are a number of design trade offs that are made while building the
boat. Some are fixed, some can be changed between rounds, others can be tweaked 
under the name "trimming". These trade offs have to do with the shape of the
hull, keel design, positioning of the main mast, stiffness of the main mast,
rigging of the sails, trimming of the sales, and many other factors as well.

  And these things all play together. It is often the case that when you change
one of these factors, suddenly the optimum setting for one of the other factors
changes. Also what's optimum at one set of wind and water conditions is not
necessarily optimum at other sets of wind and water conditions.

  In addition to Black Magic's riding high in the water they also have a very
stiff main mast that is set back over the keel as opposed to being set forward
of the keel. Most likely that worked into the equation and made ridding higher
in the water more of a benefit. Another mast position may have caused stability
problems for a boat ridding that high.

  It's hard to tell. As I said earlier, we're talking about factors that mean a
difference in 7 one hundredths of a mile per hour.

  George

  I just remembered another factor that figures in to how well a boat races.
Boat speed itself isn't everything, it's also important to be able to sail
"close to the wind". 

  Sail boats can't sail straight into the wind, the best they can do is to sail
at some angle off the wind which can range anywhere from about 40 degrees to
180 degrees which is straight down wind. 

  The way they sail toward the wind is to sail at the minimum angle to the wind
("close hauled") which has the side effect of moving them off to one side of
their course. Then they have to turn over to the other side and in effect zig
zag toward their destination. This is called "tacking" or "beating to wind". 

  I'm hardly an expert sailor but I believe that designing a boat so that it
rides higher in the water may result in more boat speed but it may also result
in less of an ability to "point up" toward the wind meaning that while going
faster you would have to sail further to get to the mark.

  At one point Saturday I thought I heard the announcers saying that Young
America was actually pointing up more than Black Magic but the Kiwi's were
still building their lead because of their superior boat speed.

  So maybe that's right that Black Magic rode higher in the water but some
other combination of factors made them able to not lose more distance beating
to wind than it was worth which is normally what happens.

  George

  That seems to be the case although it's not at all clear why. I've been
watching Dennis Conner sail for 20 years, I've heard plenty of interviews and
he always comes across as a regular guy compared to many who participate in
America's Cup. 

  His talent in his field is almost impossible to question, he almost always
wins when he's in a competitive boat and often wins in a slower boat as he did
in the Citizen's Cup. 

  Dennis is the Babe Ruth of sailing and where all this animosity comes from is
hard to imagine. He never did any harm to me, does anyone have a reason to
dislike Dennis Conner? 

  George 

>  Dennis is the Babe Ruth of sailing and where all this animosity comes from is
>hard to imagine. He never did any harm to me, does anyone have a reason to
>dislike Dennis Conner? 

I would hardly call Dennis Connor the Babe Ruth of sailing.

He's done well in these years where the sport has received more TV coverage
and folks know him by sight anyway, but I don't think you can rank him
higher than Ted Hood and the like....


btw, does anyone know why they call it the America's Cup?  It ain't what you
might think....


'Saw

RE      <<< Note 208.132 by CAMONE::WAY "USS Largato SS-371, In Memoriam" >>>

>I would hardly call Dennis Connor the Babe Ruth of sailing.

  Like Babe, Dennis Conner has done a lot to get the public interested in his
sport. In spite of his earlier success pitching for the Red Sox, Babe became
successful just after the Chicago Black Sox scandal when baseball's popularity
was pretty low. His talent and personality did a lot to make baseball a more
popular spectator sport.

  Likewise, America's Cup sailing has grown a great deal in popularity over the
last 20 years, especially over seas. Having the cup defended off it's cost
brings millions of dollars to the city hosting the event and Dennis Conner has
been a major player in every defense since the 70's. 

>btw, does anyone know why they call it the America's Cup?  It ain't what you
>might think....

  I'd guess that it's named after the Yacht America that won the 1st regatta
but I guess that's the obvious answer. 

  George 

>  I'd guess that it's named after the Yacht America that won the 1st regatta
>but I guess that's the obvious answer. 

Yeah, but I knew *you'd* know that George....8^)

  See .62 for some history on the Yacht America which I heard from a friend
of mine.

  George

  No, he was the Shoeless Joe Jackson of sailing.

  Bill Veek was the great white whale.

  George