Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    I hadn't heard of any further expansion for MLB.  With the poor
    attendance figures for the cactus and minor leagues do you think they
    have a chance of landing a major league team?  If they're building a
    stadium, it seems that someone does.

    According to the rumormills, Colangelo has an inside track with most of
    the MLB owners.  Last night was reported to be the only real obstacle
    and it's been hurdled.  Like I've said before, MLB wanted balance out
    the NL West and Phoenix was the logical geographic choice.  It has the
    market size and will be a natural rival.
    
    BTW - that's the first I've heard of Cactus league attendance figures
    being poor.  The latest stadium complex built for the Mariners and
    Padres and only 6 miles from my house.  I plan on at least seeing some
    Giants and Mariners games (kids want to see Bonds vs. Griffey).

    I probably shouldn't have lumped in the cactus league.  They probably
    get alot of support from out of state tourists.

    
    Mac,
    
    bad timing on the fan bashing here.  THe Phoenix AAA team just
    announced a couple days ago that they have sold out their '94 season
    tickets.
    
    brews

    Sorry, brews, I mistook Mike H. for a typical Phoenix sportsfan and
    extrapolated from there.

>    bad timing on the fan bashing here.  THe Phoenix AAA team just
>    announced a couple days ago that they have sold out their '94 season
>    tickets.
    
    Is there some kind of a new tie-in with the ML developments, or do they 
    not sell many season tickets?  Phoenix attendance was under 250,000 last 
    year, 3rd worst in AAA, around 3,000/game and well below half-capacity. 
    Something's going on here, or something is not being said.  Minor-league 
    attendance in Phoenix has stunk for years.  My guess is the big push to
    impress MLB, with corporations sucking up tickets like no tomorrow.
    
    ML expansion to Phoenix is all but a done deal.  It'll happen; the only
    question is when.  Market size and market location have greased the 
    skids.  Buffalo and its year-after-year 1M+ in minor-league attendance 
    will get the token lip service, but will really have to scramble for
    the second spot.  Mexico City is even a possibility...   
    
    glenn
    

    C'mon, glenn, stop putting facts in here.

    Here's another fack for ya (which we've LDUC'd before): MLB and AAA are
    not the same product.

    That hasn't stopped other areas of the country from selling out their
    AAA games.  See Buffalo, Pawtucket, Seattle pre-Mariners, etc.

    Obviously Seattle and Buffalo were/are baseball starved.  As for
    Pawtucket, baseball is New England's game.  That explains why the BoSox
    always have great draws.  Meanwhile across town in the '60s, the
    Celtics ruled the NBA for a decade and didn't enjoy the same kind of
    draw.  Does this mean that Boston is a poor basketball city?  Or are
    they are racist city for waiting until the Celtics had the Great White
    Hope?  Can you imagine an 8-time NBA Champion in today's market?  Do
    you think you could buy a ticket on game-day and get decent seats? 
    There's only been 1 year (drug scandal season) in my 13+ years here
    where you could do that for the Suns.  They've been sold out since (7
    years and counting).

    The Phoenix metro area has ASU baseball (CWS champs many times over), 
    AAA (Phoenix Firebirds), and Grand Canyon College baseball (NAIA champs 
    many times over).  This area isn't exactly starving for amateur baseball.

    >              -< Phoenix deserves professional baseball >-
    >
    > The Phoenix metro area has ASU baseball (CWS champs many times over), 
    > AAA (Phoenix Firebirds), and Grand Canyon College baseball (NAIA champs 
    > many times over).  This area isn't exactly starving for amateur baseball.
    
    I don't know why you continue to refer to AAA baseball as "amateur",
    Mike.  It's professional baseball, involving a high percentage of
    players who have been or will be major-leaguers.  It's big business, 
    too.  The look and feel of AAA baseball has grown to more closely 
    resemble ML baseball, for good and for bad, with slick promotions and
    professional marketing of both the product and merchandise.  In *most* 
    AAA markets, not just Pawtucket and Buffalo and other supposed remote 
    pockets of intense native interest, baseball is absolutely thriving at 
    the box office.  In Phoenix it hasn't.  That's just a fact.
    
    Even if Phoenix does change and embraces ML baseball over the long haul,
    that still doesn't explain this sudden interest by the public in the 
    Firebirds, which is what I was curious about.  As I said, I suspect 
    heavy corporate involvement.  And corporate interest, combined with 
    that $230M public outlay in tax dollars, is what is going to bring
    baseball to Phoenix, not some great deserving and demonstrated interest 
    in baseball by the average Phoenician.
    
    glenn
    

    Colangelo just had a press conference.  The stadium site and architect
    (probably the same one that did Camden Yard) will be declared within
    the next 90 days.  There are 2 models in mind, both have retractable
    roofs and natural grass.  He bluntly stated that it will be a top 10
    franchise within 2 years.

                          
>    He bluntly stated that it will be a top 10
>    franchise within 2 years.
 
    When are the painkillers expected to wear off?  ;-)
    
    glenn
                                 

    BTW - I just found out the reason why the Firebirds sold out for this
    season.  The pecking order for MLB season tickets has Firebirds' season
    ticket holders first.

    >           -< Give me $240M in tax money I'll be a doer too... ;-) >-
    
    possibly.  What I was referring to was his track record as a sports
    CEO.  Since he gained sole control of the Suns 7 years ago, they've
    been a contender and in the top 10 of the NBA.

    
>    BTW - I just found out the reason why the Firebirds sold out for this
>    season.  The pecking order for MLB season tickets has Firebirds' season
>    ticket holders first.
    
    Thanks for the info, Mike.  That could be a long wait, too, most likely
    five years...
    
    glenn
    

    Do the Firebirds limit the number of season tickets they sell, 
    or will they sell every seat as a season ticket?
    
    Mike

    Scottsdale Stadium holds ~10K and I would guess the ticket allocation 
    split (season vs. general) would be around 50-50.

�            -< only one to win NBA's Executive of the year 4 times >-
    
    And how many NBA titles does that equal?

    MLB owners started their meetings in Scottsdale yesterday.  First
    agenda item was to make Coleman the new NL commish.  Today will be
    slated for labor contracts.  Tomorrow, the expansion committee will be
    formed.  Phoenix and Tampa/St. Pete are the frontrunners.

    Mike

Vince?

    	Too bad because Vince Coleman would do a bang up job as president.
    
    				/Don

    Colangelo has stated that his team will train in Tucson.  Jerry
    Reinsdorf also stated yesterday that he's thinking of moving the ChiSox
    here.  His reasoning was the big Chicago fan base here and all the
    teams being closer together.  He stated that every team in Florida is a
    3-hour drive apart and Arizona doesn't have that problem.
    
    Florida currently has a 20-8 lead in number of teams that have spring
    training in their state.  

    
> He stated that every team in Florida is a
> 3-hour drive apart and Arizona doesn't have that problem.
  
    That's just flat untrue.  Every team in Florida a three-hour drive
    apart?  There are more teams in the Gulf Coast area alone, easily 
    accessible to the White Sox at their centrally-located Sarasota camp, 
    than there are in all of Arizona.  The Tucson locations don't do
    anything for the Phoenix teams, either.  But at least the Brewers did
    get out of that god-forsaken hellhole known as Yuma, AZ...
    
    glenn
    
     
                                    

>    anything for the Phoenix teams, either.  But at least the Brewers did
>    get out of that god-forsaken hellhole known as Yuma, AZ...
    
    glenn, that was the Padres that were condemned to Hell, AZ (how
    appropriate for them).  Did you know their high school nickname is the
    Criminals?

    
    There is a huge contingent of Chicagoans who've relocated here.  Since
    the Cubs are here (the more popular of the two teams), it makes sense
    for the Sox to get here.  Tucson-Phoenix isn't that bad a commute. 
    Less than 1 1/2 to most of the Phoenix parks.  The big reason to be
    here should be the weather.  We probably get less than a quarter of the
    rainouts they get in Fla.
    
    brews

�    There is a huge contingent of Chicagoans who've relocated here.  Since
�    the Cubs are here (the more popular of the two teams), it makes sense
�    for the Sox to get here.  
    
    I would think that with the trouble they have competing with the Cubs
    back in Chitown they'd stay away from them in spring training.

    No, only the losers root for the Cubs.

From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.baseball,clari.local.arizona
Subject: Phoenix Owner: We'll Get Team

	SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. (AP) -- Phoenix Firebirds owner Martin Stone
predicted Tuesday the next round of major league baseball expansion
will take place in 1998 and that Phoenix will be one of the two
cities to get a team.
	Authorization for financing to build a major-league stadium in
Phoenix expires April 1, 1995, but Stone told a news conference
that he was confident owners would decide before then to expand.
	In March, baseball owners formed an expansion committee, but did
not set a deadline. A preliminary report is due in June.
	Stone said he was speaking to reassure season ticketholders of
his Class AAA Pacific Coast League team that he was not going to
raise ticket prices, and discussed the necessity of moving the
Firebirds if Phoenix is included in expansion.
	The big-league investment partnership has promised to give
priority consideration to Firebirds ticketholders is season tickets
are sold for the proposed $283 million domed stadium which would
house a major league franchise.
	In exchange, Stone said, he is planning to get the minor-league
team out of the Phoenix area after the 1996 season to give the new
organization a summer to prepare for its debut.
	Cities under consideration for relocation by the Firebirds, who
would remain in the PCL, are Fresno and Sacramento in California
and three in Texas: Austin, San Antonio or El Paso.
	Stone bought the Firebirds 11 years ago from a group that
included Phoenix Suns president Jerry Colangelo, who would be a
principal owner of the proposed major-league team, and Stone said
he hoped Colangelo would hire many members of his staff.
	The Firebirds succeeded the San Francisco Seals, a PCL team
until the Giants moved to San Francisco from New York.

    What, with 3 or 4 million other entries, right??
    
    WGAF
    
    JaKe
    

    
>    Signed sealed and delivered just like I said 1 year ago.
 
    Real tough call, Mikey... 
    
    ;-)
    

1. In what season will the new teams first take the field?

2. Will they both go into the same league?  Or will another step in
   the devaluation of the World Series be taken by the introduction
   of interleague play?

Steve

    
    	I believe both teams will start MLB during the '98 season. They
    will participate in drafts and dispersal drafts in '96. This will
    give them 2 years to build/setup a minor league system. I would
    assume there is going to be 2 dispersal drafts. One for minor league
    players/prospects in '96. Then another one at the MLB level for
    the '98 season.
    	Nobody has said which league they will go into.
    
    Ron

Are the two new franchises going to play in Sissydomes, or are they goign to
play in the blazing desert/tropical climates of their location?

=bob=

    
    	Tampa Bay is going to play in the Thunderdome located in St. Pete.
    Phoenix will be building a retractable dome stadium, ala SKYdome.
    	The reason expansion was voted on now. Is because Phoenix had a
    April 1st deadline. On $260 million dollars to build the stadium. If
    Phoenix wasn't granted a team by April 1st. They would have had to
    get the stadium moneys approved by residents voting all over again.
    Which would delay contruction and a potential '98 start for the
    Diamondbacks.
    	I like the name Phoenix Diamondbacks. Who in the world picked
    Tampa Bay Devil Rays?
    
    Ron

	It would be hard to believe the AL will allow Tampa to go to the
	NL, giving them BOTH of the Florida markets.

>	It would be hard to believe the AL will allow Tampa to go to the
>	NL, giving them BOTH of the Florida markets.
    
    Yep, the speculation is that Tampa goes to the AL, with interleague
    play soon to follow in order to capitalize on this (and other) 
    unnatural rivalries...
    
    glenn
    

    Re: .49  Mike
    
    >Phoenix will also have *natural* grass so that must mean they will be
    >in the NL instead of the Almost League(tm).
    
    Please explain?  By my count, the following stadiums have fake grass:
    
    NL  		AL
    
    Montreal            Minnesota
    St. Louis 	        Seattle
    Philadelphia 	Toronto
    Cincinnati		
    Montreal
    Houston
    Pittsburgh
    
    
    KC has natural grass this year.  The NL has more than double fake
    fields than the AL.  Would you care to change your league affiliation?
    :*)
    
    
    Spud

    
    
    Beat me to it Spud....Do your homework Mikey
    
    Jerry

I was just composing a reply to Mike in my head while hitting NEXT UNSEEN,
and there was Spud's withering retort, saying everything that needed to be
said.

Well, nearly everything.  The American League has the DH, after all, and
that alone lends powerful support to Mike's (tm) claim.

Steve

I'm genuinely confused.  They are going to grow natural grass, in a stadium with
a retractable dome.  

OK, assume that most games are at night.  We all know grass needs sunlight (you
know, that photosynthesis thang), so they would have to leave the dome open
during the day.  Say they close it a few hours before the game, do they propose
to cool the place down enough to play ball.  Or does the desert climate cool
down quickly enough at night to play compfortably.  If this is the case, why do
they need a dome?  It never rains in the desert.

=Bob=

    
    I think Mike is wrong, again, but hell, he's batting about the Mendoza
    line in here anyway.  The panels that fold back are translucent, so
    they can let in some of the sun's light.  They say they've got the
    kinks on that worked out.  It'd be hard for anything not to get enough
    sun in the summer here.  
    
    I doubt that they could cool the thing quick enough for a game, if it
    was opened during the day, and I'd hate to saee the AC bill if they did
    it that way.  It'd probably get up to 130 easily during the day with
    the way those panels look if you don'tkeep the AC on.  The hottest part
    of the day here is 3-4 pm, and being right in the middle of downtown
    Phoenix, it ain't gonna cool off very fast.
    
    brews

    
      Mikey, enter your name in here so's you can be right about at least
     one thing.

    So KJ is retiring this year?????  He turns 30 in March.
    
    NAZZ

>    Buck Showalter is in the house!

Albeit a studio apartment for the next couple of years... :-)

I'm impressed with Showalter.  Obviously, they're making it worth his while,
but I don't know if I'd want to be managing minor league teams at this
point if I were in his shoes.

A great move by the Diamondbacks - he gets to work hands-on with some of the
guys that'll be playing for him a couple of years down the line.

	And Peter Gammons has been reporting on ESPN that Arizona will
	be one of the four RICHEST franchises in the Major Leagues
	when they start playing ... all the cash is coming from all
	the luxury boxes and season tickets (over 40k) that have already
	been sold ...

	Three of the richest franchises in the Major Leagues will be in
	the same division (if the Diamondbacks go to the NL West) in
	Arizona, Colorado and LA Dodgers ...

	A few notes back Mike mentioned that he hopes that the Diamondbacks
	will succeed as quickly as the Rockies did ... if Colangelo spends
	just part of the money he is making on this team, then he should be 
	able to buy a contender just like Colorado did ... and that is not
	meant as an insult, Colorado rewarded its fans for their outstanding
	attendance by using all that ticket money to go out and get quality 
	free agents ... Arizona could/should do somehting similar ...

	Vinny

>                          -< 891 days to opening day >-

Or to quote Buck:


	We've got two years to work with.  Can't waste them.


And to quote WVIT-TV30's Beasley Reece:


	Buck'll be working on lowering his handicap playin' some
	desert golf.....

    

	I'd have to disagree that Clorado "bought" a winning
	team.  To me that would mean they filled the roster 
	with mostly, very expensive, free agents.  I don't
	think that's the case.  

	To my recollection no one has been successful in 
	"buying" a winner. (ie NY Yankmees or Mets)



	billl

  Some people say the '78 Yankees were bought but I saw something somewhere
that said a number of their players came through the system. 

  George

    Heiser - relax.  Baseball has scheduled its next strike/lockout/work
    stoppage for that April when the Diamondbacks are scheduled to begin
    play.
    
    NAZZ

Just bought an Arizona Diamondbacks fitted hat yesterday.  What a
bitchin' lid, if I do say so myself...

>Just bought an Arizona Diamondbacks fitted hat yesterday.  What a
>bitchin' lid, if I do say so myself...

What size?  6� or 8�?????


8^)

7 5/8.  What can I say - I got a big haid.  Actually, I'm thinking I should
have gotten a 7 3/4.

I take it you're implying that they'd be out of them due to 12-year-olds 
snarfing them up as collector's items or something.  There was actually a
decent selection.

It's very nice, more of a special occasion hat.  White hat, purple bill, logo
has teal, purple, and gold.  Maybe I'll wear it to the next wedding I attend,
or my mother-in-law's birthday party on Saturday.

Nah, I was just trying to find out if you were a bighaided guy.

I'm a 7 3/8 I think.  It's tough to find those fitted hats sometimes....

    What a shock...another purple and 'teal' team.
    
    
    
    billl

    
  >> What a shock...another purple and 'teal' team.
    
     No kidding. Roland probably has 3 cases of 'new' Coke still
     sitting in his basement.

No, Tommy, it's 3 cases of homebrewed stout.  I wouldn't save any
non-alcoholic beverage for more than a month...

Nice to see you're back to getting up on the wrong side of the bed. :-)

If liking the logo makes me a Madison Avenue sap, so be it.  I'll try and
wear it to the next get-together.

>    I got my Dad a similar hat (fitted, of course) for his birthday last year.  
>    His is white with the turquoise bill.  Makes a nice golfing hat, which
>    is what he uses it for.  Probably the only one like it in Worcestor
>    County. ;-)
>    
>    Mike


Hey Mike,

Question on a totally unrelated subject.

How long before your digital anniversary (tenth I think?) did you get
the catalog?  

I'm due in March, but I haven't got the catalog of lovely gifts yet...8^)

'Saw

Thanks.

I was beginning to get worried and thought that they might actually be
cancelling that program.

Remember when you used to get a dinner or luncheon or something too?  They
cancelled that I think just before my 5th.  8^)

They've got the time and the money - scouting is the logical thing
to do.

What's the deal with Buck?  Will he be managing one of their minor league
teams until the major league debut?

That's nice.  Not "nice" as in "sugar and spice", "nice" as in neat, clean,
efficient.

Scouting department gets time to evaluate players all over the place.
Front office gets time to get their "money" ducks in a row - what do we have
  for talent, what will we need, what do we have to spend, what will imported
  talent cost...
Buck keeps from getting rusty.
Buck gets to know a good amount of the talent he'll have to work with.

It actually makes sense to give expansion teams in every sport a couple of
years to get things together.  It just makes more sense in baseball given
that each team has a farm system.

Of course, I would care less about any of this if I didn't have
the bitchin' lid... :-)

	In these days of bandwagon jumpers, I'm only suprised that
	they weren't higher.



	billl

    Re: .92
    
            It's way too early for anyone to jump on they're bandwagon.
    Gonna have to wait 25 years or so until they're in contention (or if
    they're lucky they'll be like Colorado). Then you'll have everyone
    coming out and saying they were alway a "closet" Diamondback fan!

	My guess is that those numbers are about average for those
	faux fans who _must_ be seen wearing the logos of the new
	teams as soon as they hit the store.

	Remember when _everyone_ was wearing the Might Duck and 
	Shark logos?


	billl

    Hey, knock it off you guys!  I've been a Diamondback fan for ages!
    Remember that oldtimers game they had last year when that wacky mascot
    chased the manager around the bases.  Wadda scream!  And how about that
    near-miss for the pennant when they just got edged out for the title in
    the final weekend?  Yep. a lotta good memories.
    
    NAZZ

    The D'backs don't have to wait to win a pennant, they can buy one
    anytime they feel the need.  They won't bother for the first few years
    since fans will come anyway but they don't have to wait like the Angels
    and Mets did for minor leaguers to develop.  The model for the ages is
    Colorado.

  There was an interesting piece on the baseball expansion teams in USA Today
Baseball Weekly this week. Seems the baseball owners canceled their June
meetings for several reasons but one was that they are no where near agreement
on what league will get the two new teams, the Arizona Diamondbacks and the
Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Presumedly the matter will continue to be worked on in
committee.

  National League owners want both teams in their league and the Diamondback
owners want to go into the National League however American League owners want
both teams in their league. 

  There is also a suggestion that one will go in each league giving both
leagues 3 divisions of 5 teams each but that would result in the two leagues
having an odd number of teams for the 1st time in major league history. That in
turn would mean interleague play throughout the year to avoid having at least
one team in each league idle on any given weekend. 

  George

the D'backs were supposed to be in the AL, from the beginning, but Colangelo 
has always wanted to be in the NL, so the thing has sorta been on hold.  They 
got a couple years to figure it out.

The main roof supports on the park go up today.

BTW- since the major baseball TV contract is with FOX, does that make it not 
a major sport?

brews

    is there going to be a blue fuzzy looking baseball in the FOX
    telecasts???
                

    
    yes, unfortunately.