Conference hbahba::cam_sports

      I watch them when I can.  I've seen some of the games they should
    have won but ended up losing it down the stretch.
    
      If they keep winning 2/3 games,  then they may even make the
    playoffs.  Give Issel a couple more years and he just might turn this
    team into a valid "playoff" contender.  They still need a better bench
    in order to be that good though.
    
      Moe & the 76'rs are in town tonight.  Should be a good game!
    
      Tim,   who is happy to see the turn around.

	RE:  Doug Moe and the 76'ers in town...

	Heard that last night they had a little roast in honor of Dan Issell
	making the HOF.  Doug said (I paraphrase):

	Hey Dan, we stink.  If you can't beat us you shouldn't be a coach in 
	the NBA!

	Classic Doug.

	Also, Dan Reeves, speaking about Doug Moe:

	Doug's reached middle age.  That's when both your kids and your clothes
	are the same age!


Kevin

  This week, the Nuggets beat a young but very good Charlotte Hornets team.
  Last night, they dominated the Laker's who they lost to 3 times earlier 
  this year. Last night, Alex English had his number retired. He's got the
  numbers to get into the Hall of fame and join his ex teammate, Dan Issel.
  I'm far from a basketball expert but here's my impression of the Nuggets:

   They have to be one of the fastest or the fastest team in the NBA. This is
   a great advantage in the thin air of mile high Denver.

   The team is rapidly improving. In the last month, I don't think they were
   soundly beaten in any game. Earlier in the year, it was a different story.

   The team seems to have mental lapses for 5-10 minutes every game where they
   play sloppy Bball. Hopefully, with experience, they'll get over this.

   They need to improve their 3 point shooting.

   They need a "goto" guy late in the game who can be counted on to get the 
   basket or draw the foul. (maybe Ellis or Stith in the future)

   Dikembe Mutumbo - He's concentrating more on defense this year and getting
   a little more rest. This is translating into more wins. He's one of the 
   better centers in the NBA but I don't think he's one of the top 5.

   Laphonso Ellis - He doesn't get much press outside of Denver, but the
   folks in Colorado know he was a very good pick. He started real fast
   this year but has mellowed out a little lately and has gotten into foul
   trouble more often than he should. Once he gets used to the long season
   and playing every other day and has more experience, he could become a 
   great one.

   Chris Jackson - I was ready to give up on him last year but it looks like
   Dan Issel has done something right because his contribution to the team
   has dramatically improved this year. When he's hot, he's reallllly hot.
   I wish he had a better 3 point shot.

   Robert Pack - He's extremely quick and not afraid to drive for the basket 
   against anyone. He can be a real sparkplug for the team but on occassions, 
   he just looks awful. Needs more consistency and a better outside shot.

   Reggie Williams - A solid all around player. He's been overlooked by the
   press around the country. More consistent than the other Nuggets.

   Marcus Liberty - Looks good on occassions but he impresses me as just an 
   average player.

   Scott Hastings - Has played better, filling in for Mutumbo, than I ever 
   expected. But he'll never be a star.

   Bryant Stith - Looked good early in the year but got injured. Now that he's
   back, he seems to be getting back into the swing of things and is developing
   a better outside shot. He could be a real sleeper and turn out to be a star.

   Marc Macon, Todd Lichti - Haven't done much to impress me, but in fairness,
   Macon has been injured and Lichti has been very healthy either.

   OK, who'd I miss ?


		Keith

    Gary Plummer?
    
    Macon is a stiff, Lichti never fully came back from all his injuries,
    and the team lacks depth.  But they are fun to watch and are improving.
    
    Add Chris Webber or Jamal Mashburn, and Denver would be tough.
    
    NAZZ

    I don't think Webber will come out until after next college season.
    

>    Gary Plummer?

  At times he looks pretty good, but I'd have to call him average at best.

  I also forgot Tom Hammonds. In his first 3 or 4 games, he looked like a real 
  steal off the waiver list. Lately, he hasn't been that impressive. I'll
  just say that the jury is still out.

  Yep, I'd love to see Chris Webber join the Nuggets. But, who wouldn't
  want him. They'll need a lucky lottery pick to get him when he comes out.

	Keith

    
    	My advice to Chris Jackson is..........
    
    		LOSE THAT HITLER MOUSTACHE DUDE! :*)
    
    Claybroon

  The Nuggets completely dominated the Portland Tailchasers(without
  Clyde Drexler) last night. Chris Mustache Jackson had a career first half. He
  was perfect from the foul line and hit 8 of 10 field goals including
  3 - 3 pointers. After impressing everybody in the first half, he proceeded
  to miss his first 4 or 5 shots in the second half. There was about a 
  7 minute stretch in the 3rd quarter where the Nuggets looked awful on
  offense but at least the defense was tough until they got their act back
  together.

  Alex English had his number retired and his jersey lifted up into the rafters
  at McNichols arena a couple of nights ago. His career and numbers may
  put him in the Hall of Fame to join his ex teammate, Dan Issel.

  Now the Nuggets start a 6 game road trip where we'll find out how good they
  really are. If they win 2 of the games, I think it would be a successful trip
  considering their road record. If they win 3 games, they would surpass 
  everybody's expectations and find themselves in the hunt for a playoff spot.
  
	Keith

  The Nuggets just finished a 4 game road trip and won 2 of them. This was
  the best road trip they've had in a long...long time. In fact they almost
  beat the Suns who needed a lucky rebound and a last second shot to edge the
  Nuggets by 1 point. This team has played very good the last 4th of the season.
  They won't make the playoffs this year but the team has certainly turned 
  around with Dan Issel at the helm. I'm looking forward to further
  improvement and a playoff spot next year.

  One depressing thing about the Nuggets has been Bryant Stith. Just when he 
  was fully recovered from a broken foot and starting to play great ball,
  he broke his hand and will miss the rest of the season. As a rookie, he has 
  shown flashes of being a future star. Hope that he stays healthy next year.
    
	Keith

>  The Nuggets just finished a 4 game road trip and won 2 of them. This was
>  the best road trip they've had in a long...long time. In fact they almost
>  beat the Suns who needed a lucky rebound and a last second shot to edge the
>  Nuggets by 1 point. This team has played very good the last 4th of the season.
    
    Of course you forgot to mention that Denver had the last shot to win
    the game but it was blocked by Mark West.  KJ didn't play either.
    
    You're right though.  Denver has played well and will be a team to
    watch next season.  Aren't they still nipping at the Lakers' heels for
    the #8 spot?

      Yes they could possibly get the #8 spot,  but unlikely.  They play
    Houston in Denver tonight.  If Mutumbo can slow Hakeem down, they can
    beat them.
    
      another good lotto pick and Denver can be a winning team.
    
      Tim

    Denver is 2.5 games behind the Lakers.  Denver has 6 games left and teh
    Lakers have 7, so yes it would be tough.
    
    The Nuggets will win at least 35 games, and most people around here
    felt 30 wins would be a decent year after last year's debacle and
    Issel's first year coaching.  This team should be fully expected 
    to make the playoffs next year.  Since about January I would guess the
    Nuggets are about a .500 team.
    
    You're right about Stith, Keith.  He had moved into the starting lineup
    when he got hurt for the 2nd time this season.
    
    
    Joe
       

      Nuggets lose last night at home against the Rockets.
    
      Thats that,
    
      Tim

    What's wrong with Robert Pack?  Is he hurt?
    

    With the Lakers' win last night, Denver is now 3.5 games behind them
    for the final playoff spot, so it's all but over.
    
    Pack missed last night's game with a tender left ankle sprained in
    Saturday's loss to the Clippers.  He'll make the trip to Dallas
    Friday, but probably won't play.
    
    
    Joe

  I watched most of last night's game. The Nuggets didn't play all that
  bad but Houston played extremely well, especially from 3 point land.
  If Stith and Pack had been available, it would have been a closer game
  but I think it was really Houston's night.

  Speaking of Stith, last night the Nuggets announcer(can't remember his
  name) said that he thinks Stith will become one of the best players to
  ever wear a Nuggets uniform. For a couple weeks before he got hurt, he was
  playing awesome ball. 

  Next year, they'll be in the playoffs.

	Keith

Dan Issel has positioned himself as a coach in the NBA, There is no way the 
Nuggets owners will fire him. The team has beaten every East coast team

    Nuggets will unveil their new logo at the NBA draft lottery.  It'll be
    good to see 'em get rid of that stupid rainbow color scheme on the
    logo.
    
    Joe

    
    Parade in June!

    Chris Jackson has been signed to a 4 year contract and, for religious
    reasons, has officially changed his name to Mahmoud Abdul Rauf.

  Scott Hastings has retired. He was never a great player but he was always 
  a player that you loved to have on your team. He never gave less than
  100%. At least he'll be staying in the Denver area as he'll join the
  Nuggets broadcast team. The word is that the Nuggets would have had a tough
  time paying Hastings his 600k salary and signing their #1 draft pick
  Rodney Rodgers. Hastings could see the writing on the wall and retired.

	Keith

I'll be taking my son to see the Nuggets "93" tonight they are playing a 
scrimage at the Cadet field house at 7:00 tonight. $3.00 for a game. 

The roster is: 
                                                                  Final 12
3 Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf formerly Chris Jackson   LSU                     *
45 Fred Benajmin                              Norfolk State
Elmer Bennett                                 Notre Dame  
Kevin Brooks                                  SW Louisisna            *
LaPhonsoo Ellis                               Notre Dame              *
Tom Hammonds                                  Georgia Tech  
Marcus Liberty                                Illinois                *
Roy Marble                                    Iowa                    
Mark Macon                                    Temple                  *
Darnell Mee                                   Western Kentucky        *
Dikembe Mutumbo                               Gougetown               *
Robert Pack                                   USC                     *
Rodney Rodgers                                Wake Forest             *
Bryant Stith                                  Virginia                *
Reggie Theus                                  UNLV
Shaun Vandiver                                Colorado
Brian Williams                                Arizona                 *
Reggie Williams                               Gougetown               *

    
    Jeff, Why do some of the nuggets have numbers for first names?  Memory
    problems or something and they can't turn their heads far enough around
    to read their names on the back of their jerseys?
    
    Are you trying to urinate me with that p_name?
    
    brews
    

I got started with the jersey #'s then I thought I should get this done before
it gets real late. 

Missed the Scrimmage but from some reports the Nuggets will be contending
for a playoff spot this season. They are going to look a lot like the Golden 
State Warriors with a Center. 

Jeff 

    Not that I know that much about the Nuggets, but ...
    
    I will wager that Shaun Vandiver makes the team over Kevin Brooks.
    
    NAZZ

Kevin Brooks is a stiff. But I don't expect him to make the team. 


This team is going to be a lot better Brian Williams backing up Dikembe Mutombo. 

Jeff Riggen

    VanDiver got cut.
    
    Did Pack sign yet?
    

    I've heard rumors that Darnell Mee has a shot at starting PG, moving
    Abdul-Raouf to SG.  Any word out there on that?
    
    -Walt
    

Pack hasn't signed..

Darnell Mee is very impressive so far this season but to start the year 
Muhmoud Abdul-Rauf will begin the season as the begins with Brian Stith playing
SG. 


Jeff

Youth or just a young mans game, the final 12 are as follows 


 Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf formerly Chris Jackson
 Bryant Stith 
 Reggie Williams 
 LaPhonsoo Ellis
 Dikembe Mutumbo
 Kevin Brooks
 Marcus Liberty                                
 Brian Williams
 Rodney Rodgers 
 Darnell Mee 
 Tom Hammonds   (injured)
 Robert Pack    (unsigned)                              
                   
  
Could this team win 40+ games this year ? I don't know I would like to see Pack
back within the lineup or a good trade for a power forward. Ellis and Rogers 
could use a vetran power forward that wouldn't get those charging fouls or over
the back type that certain PF's don't get called. 

The oldest player on this team is Reggie Williams and he is 29. 

Jeff



               

I think the Nuggets will definitely win over 40 games and make the playoffs
this season.  They are going to be one helluva entertaining team to watch.
I don't think they need another power forward.  I think their only problem
is that they lack a true point guard.  Rauf can light it up, no doubt, but
he's still a 2-guard in a point guard's body.  

Ken

    coupled with the fact that only 49 games wins the Midwest, the McNuggets
    will be real competitive.

    ...and nobody mentions the roundhouse elbow by Tom Chambers to knock
    LaPhonso Ellis out cold.  TC must be taking lessons from the Mailman.

    Or had them from Barkley...
    

    Right.  Sir Charles didn't attend the Bill Cartwright School of Elbow
    Sharpening.

    Ask the Angolan...
    

      Both Ellis and Chambers are out for 1 game and have to give pentalty
    $$$....
    
      Phonze started it and Chambers ended it it by knocking Ellis out, and
    not fouls called!
    
      Great reffing.......
    
      Tim

    He never did stuff like that here.  He may still be here if he showed
    some life once in a while.

    re-1
     
      Mike,  there is Sir Charlie, the thug of the west (-)

  A few people were a talkin bout the Nuggets in another note, so I though I'd
  move the discussion to where it belongs. I've been watchin the Nuggets play
  whenever I get a chance and all I got to say is that this is a real 
  Jeckel and Hyde team. They've gone to places like Chicago, Houston and 
  New Yuck and blown out their competition. Then, when they go to 
  Philthadelphia or entertain Washington or play some other struggling team,
  they fall asleep and get beat. There's no way to know which team will show 
  up. But generally, win or lose, they play better against the tougher teams.

  Somebody said there's more interest in the Rockies than the Nuggets. That
  may be true but the Nuggets have sold out most of their home games this year.
  They've also moved into the top 10 teams for merchandise sold. They'll
  make the playoffs for the first time in many years and tickets will be hard 
  to come by. I think there will be alot of interest but the fans are realistic
  and won't expect them to move on. However, most people think they'll make
  a good showing against the Sonics and win 1 or 2 games.

  Now here's how I see the team:

	Dikembe Mutombo - He doesn't score that many points compared to
	  Robinson, Olajuwan or Ewing but he's the best defensive center 
	  in the game. He leads the league in blocked shots and is 3rd or 4th
	  in rebounds. Other teams modify their play when the big guy's in the 
	  middle. Some other teams and fans look at him as a bad 
	  guy and he often complains too much to the refs. Still, I think 
	  he's a real force.

       Laphonso Ellis - 2nd year player who has lived up to or exceeded the high
          hopes when the Nuggets drafted him. Lately he seems to be slipping
	  a little. Maybe he's just tired from the long season. Needs to shoot
	  better.

       Mahmoud Abdual Rauf - This guy shoots as good as anybody and leads
          the league in free throw %. He's also 2nd on the NBA all time
	  consecutive free throw list. He may break the record before his
	  career is over. But he's a real Jeckel and Hyde player. When he's
	  on, he's really on but when he's off, well you're better off
	  going with 2nd or 3rd string. Needs to improve his defense.
	  Has numerous critics because of his small size.

       Bryant Stith - 2nd year player who sees more playing time than any other 
          Nugget. He doesn't score much but is rough and tough on defense. 
	  He needs to gain confidence in his shooting.

       Reggie Williams - Oldest guy on the team but only in the middle of his
          career. Solid player, but he'll nevr be a star.

       Brian Williams - They got him for nothing or practically nothing and he's
          turned out to be a real steal. Some people think he's the best
	  backup center in the game. he doesn't play defense like Mutombo but
	  he can score.

       Rodney Rodgers - This year's #1 draft choice. He looked like a total
          bust early on but lately he's come on strong. He once made 
	  3 - 3 pointers in 8 seconds to almost steal a victory in the closing
	  seconds of a game earlier this year. If he continues to improve,
	  he could be another Charles Barkley.

       Robert Pack - Another feast or famine player. When he's on, he looks
          like a genius, when he's off, ya wonder how he ever made it to the 
	  NBA. However, he's very fast and fearless going to the hoop. I think
	  he could be a very productive player if he could just improve his
	  consistency.

  The other players aren't worth talkin about. 

  The poor team foul shooting has lost a number of games this year.

  This is the youngest team in the NBA. If they can continue to improve and
  find a way to be consistent, they might be a contender in 2 or 3 years.
  All in all, I think Biekerstaff has done a good job with the draft picks
  and players he has picked up other ways. The jury is still out on Issel.

	Keith 

    I'm still hoping the Lakers get the #8.  Seattle doesn't want any part
    of Magic & The Lakers.

Dikembe is more like Mr. Barkley, seems to me that he becomes very frustrated
with his teammates. He feels that he carries the team and they seem to be 
loafing. Robinson is the only center that seems to dominate Dikembe. 

CJ- Makmuud does suffer form Turretts(sp) syndrome, he at times plays with other
teams offensively I am amazed by his shooting touch. His skills on the defensive
end of the court are at best marginal combine that with Stith and you have a 
2 guard combo team going for 40+ points per game. Dikembe has reason to be 
frustrated. 

The only reason the Nuggets exist in playoff contention is the fact that the 
Lakers really SIP.

Jeff

  A couple of Nugget team records were made this season:

	1. This is the first time in club history that the Nuggets have
	   held their opposition to an average of less than 100 points 
	   per game. 

	2. In just 3 years, Dikembe Mutombo has become the all time team
	   leader in blocked shots.


		Keith

    Good news for McNugget fans!  Gary Payton is on the cover of the new
    SI!  I think Denver will steal a game or 2 as it is, but this will make
    things real interesting!

  I don't think the Nugs will win the series but it will be a lot
  closer than most people think. Remember, these teams split their 
  regular season games 2-2. Neither team lost at home. The Sonics
  did blow em away once earlier in the year but the Nugs won by
  14 the last time they played. The media says the Nugs match up well
  against the Sonics and the Sonics have said they would rather play
  some other teams in the 1st round.

	Keith

    Nuggets lose... 102-82?...
    
    REK

      Thanks for being nice REK, they didn't only lose,  they got spanked!
    
      By the time I got out of here and home to watch the 2nd half,  it was
    over by then.  The Nuggs need to take care of the boards.  They were
    outrebounded by a 2-1 margin.
    
      Tim

  Hey come on guys, after 4 minutes, they were up 8-2. And then they sprung
  leak. A big one...

  At half time, they were being out rebounded by 2-1 and the 'nics had
  23 foul shots while the Nugs had 6 and miss 3 of em.

  The Nugs usually run very well and wear out the other team. Last night,
  it looked like the Nugs were the tired team. Maybe Issel worked em too hard
  gettin ready for their first playoff game in 5 years.

  However, I have to say that the 'nics looked extremely sharp. After last 
  night, I've come to the conclusion that they're the team to beat in the
  playoffs.

	Keith

    way to go McNuggets!  I think they'll take game 4 too.

>    way to go McNuggets!  I think they'll take game 4 too.

Didn't they win both against Seattle in Denver ?

  Should be a fun game tonight. I've never seen McNichols arena rockin n
  rollin like it was Monday night. The 'ics are 0-3 in Big Mac this year.
  I also think this will go to the 5th game.

	Keith

    For the record, no 'ics of any description have been anywhere near me
    this year.

  While we're talkin bout the 'ics, I heard that they want to drop the
  "Super" from their name. So they'll no longer be called the Super 'ics,
  just plain old 'ics. Is this right ?

	Keith

Rumor is the 'ics  had a plane flight back to Seattle Monday night after the 
game. Wishful thinking that the series would be wrapped up. Well now you have
a team that has a few extra mileage points for that return trip tonight. 

Cost controls do not exist in the NBA they should have to stay over the 
weekend. 

Jeff

    The rumor about the name change is no rumor.  The NBA board has already
    approved the change to just Sonics.  Seattle claims it's for marketing
    reasons.

      Isn't game 4 thursday?  
    
      I hope so since I'm still here...
    
      Tim

    
    
    	Yabbut I'm sorry to byrst yer bubbles but I gotta correct y'all!
    
    'ics is the abbreviated name ya give to the white spots that ya get on
    yer tropical fish when the water in the tank gets a bit too cold.  If
    ya don't raise the temperature to ~85 degrees and run a diatom filter,
    yer entire population of fish can ketch it and then they'll die (and
    sometimes float to the surface  :*(
    
    It's vewry contagious (to fish anyway) and if ya have some expensive
    exotic fished, like Egyptian Mouth Breeders, it could really, really
    ruin yer whole day!
    
    ....but then again, "ic" (pronounced "yik") is the word most frequently
    used by Babs in "animal House" whenever she sees Bluto (Belucci) or
    while removing the gloves from her hand after she "did the dirty deed"
    to Greg!  ;^)
    
    I remain,
    wondering if ya missed me lately?
    Kev
    

  From the sound of Kev's reply, the 'ics are in deep do-do tonight.

  Here's a couple of interesting stats from the Nugs and 'ics series:

	1. In the first 2 games the 'ics had 50 more free throws than the
	   Nugs. In the last game, a different officiating crew called
	   basically the same number of fouls for each team.
	
	2. Shawn Kemp's shooting percentage for the series is .300
	   Although, some people are reporting strange white spots on his 
	   scales, the real reason is Mt Mutumbo.

	3. From the floor, the Nugs are outshooting the 'ics.

  I think the Nugs will win a close one tonight. However, when they go to
  Seattle, the 'ics will re-establish the fact that they are the better team.
  All in all, it'll be a good showing for the Nugs.

		Keith

    The Nuggets have already showed more than Orlando.  Denver needs less
    help (player wise) than them to get to the next level.

    re-1
    
      A true point guard.  Rahuf would make a great backup.  Pack missing a
    few "control" brain cells.
    
      Denver has the defense.  Thier offense is inconsistent.  Thier free
    throw % sucks.  Thats actually killed them in many games.  When you
    make 10 outta 20 and lose by 3,  well you add it up.....
    
    
      Tim

    Mahmoud again pulled a no-show lasted night (only 2 FG), but Robert
    Pack saved the day, hitting a 3-pointer to tie the game with 27 seconds
    left, then stealing the ball from Gary Payton (PACK STOLE THE BALL!!!)
    to send the game into OT.  Sonics score only 3 points in OT, so it's
    back to Seattle for Game 5.
    
    NAZZ

      I was shocked at what I saw.  Reggie Williams about had the game won
    one that last shot after Perkins turned over.
    
      Denver played excellent defense in OT.  Kemp was the only one to get
    a bucket in OT.
    
      Seattle will most likely come out in game 5 and romp unless the
    Nuggets can find their offense, plus home court for Seattle.
    
      I would love to see an upset,  but I don't thin it will happen.  Of
    course I didn't think this series would go 5 games either.
    
      Good luck Nuggets!!!
    
    
      Tim

    See Tim, I told ya they'd win.  The Sonics now have a problem of
    in-fighting, are relying on their talented roster (NY Rangers of the
    NBA), and have showed a lack of heart.  They're primed for an upset
    right now.
    
    Mike

    RE> 92.64
    
    Mike,
    
    	I'm just wondering, I might be blind, but where have you heard
    there is in-fighting with the Sonics.  I'm up here in Seattle and read
    three different Sport sections a day, plus listen to a sports channel
    during the day.  I haven't heard a word about this.  
    
    ;*) Maybe they are hiding it from the home front.
    
    	I figured from the begining that this would go to five.  These
    teams have really played each other well through the season.  I figure
    that Denver though is in for it when they hit the floor in Seattle
    though.  Even though I am a part time noter, I will hit ye ole crow
    cafe if they loose.
    
    See ya 
    Steve

    Actually it was a tiff between Payton and Karl and was in yesterday's
    paper (courtesy of the Republic Sports Wire).

    
    In case anyone missed, where the hell were you 8^)  Denver beats
    Seattle in overtime in game 5 to become the first 8th seed to win a
    series.  The newspaper out here had a great shot of Dikembe at the end
    of the game where he was lying on the ground under the hoop holding the
    ball "above" his head in near tears.
    
    It was Dikembes two blocked shots in overtime that overcame the Nuggets
    4, count them 4, shot clock violations.
    
    Marc
    

     >  In case anyone missed, where the hell were you 8^)
     
      Driving home to see mom.... (smiley goes here)...

    Robert Pack >> Harold Miner

    Ouch, I'm glad I didn't eat much this weekend....please pass the salt. 
    After the Sonics loss it is really hard to find a bandwagon to jump on. 
    I really had such high hopes for the dip sh$ts.  Boy, did they piss off
    a lot of people up here...sports bars, cable companies, merchandisers,
    etc,...
    
    Any way congrats to the Nuggets, they wanted it and they took it. 
    
    Good luck
    Steve

  How bout dem Nuggets !!!

  The Denver press is already playing this up as possibly the biggest event
  in Denver sports history. After the game, KOA radio cancelled all of their
  planned programming and let people call up and talk about the Nugs. 
  As soon as the final whistle blew, fans started camping out at the Nuggets
  ticket office at McNichols arena.

  The way I see it, this is just what the doctor ordered for the NBA. On the
  one hand you have teams getting in brawls, you have mega million dollar 
  contracts and they're still complaining, you've got cheap shot artist Dennis 
  Rodman with a different hair color and tatoo everyday and you've got 
  Charles Barkley telling people that he's no role model. On the other hand,
  you've got the Denver Nuggets composed of a bunch of no-name and reject
  players, who are also model citizens, and all they do is beat the team
  with the best record in the NBA in Seattle.

	Keith 

Any truth to the rumor that George Karl called Dean for inspiration prior
to game 5?

TTom

    Kudos Nuggets!  This was great for the NBA, almost instills a March
    Madness like spirit into the pro game.

re: .72

forget about the West, root for the Knicks. Welcome aboard.

The Crazy Met

 If the Knicks make the finals, the west can send the Suns and I'll root
 for them. Otherwise anyone else from the East would get my support...

 mike

Well MikeC it is good to know that this year you'll take a double whammy.
Celtics in the lottery (but one of the better entries) and the Knicks
winning a championship. How sweet it is.

The Crazy Met

      I was in shock for 3 hours after the game.  I for one didn't give
    this "rookie" team a chance,  and really still don't.
    
      Congrats to beating the Sonics.   Dikembe is the series MVP.  PAck
    played a smarter series than he normally plays (out of control).
    
      Now to Utah where the Jazz beat the Nuggs 4-1 this year.  When the
    Nuggs slow/close down Stockton, they win since he can't divvy the ball
    out.
    
      Hopefully the refs won't pamper the Mailman,  but we know that won't
    happen.  He will get to the line 10-12 times/game I'm sure (or
    whatever his average is).
    
      Tim

>Well MikeC it is good to know that this year you'll take a double whammy.
>Celtics in the lottery (but one of the better entries) and the Knicks
>winning a championship. How sweet it is.

Uh, MikeH in the contest that MikeC is running I took the Knicks to
go all the way; that was almost 2 weeks ago. Just goes to prove that
I am a true objective observer and that should reflect on my other comments
in this file.

The Crazy Met

  Did anyone else notice that Pack Man played better after he took that bad
  fall ? Man o man, he really hit the floor hard. I thought they'd have to haul
  him off on a strecher. Maybe the Nugs should bang him around a little in
  the locker room before the Jazz series. He certainly played the best game
  of his career after he was hurt.

>    Hopefully the refs won't pamper the Mailman,  but we know that won't
>    happen.  He will get to the line 10-12 times/game I'm sure (or
>    whatever his average is).

  It's true that the Jazz beat the Nugs 4 outta 5 games this year but all of
  em were close. In the last game I watched, the Nugs were ahead by 5-10 points
  with 5 minutes to play and then the refs started blowin their whistles
  everytime the Mailman got the ball. I couldn't believe it, the only thing 
  the Jazz did was dribble down the floor, give it to the Mailman and wait
  2 seconds fer the refs to call a foul. Evidently, Malone draws more fouls
  than any other player in the league. But for some reason, I don't think the
  refs will be nearly as generous now that we're in the 2nd round of the 
  playoffs and the Nugs have gained some respect. It should be a fun series.

	Keith

�Evidently, Malone draws more fouls
�  than any other player in the league. But for some reason, I don't think the
�  refs will be nearly as generous now that we're in the 2nd round of the 
�  playoffs and the Nugs have gained some respect.
    
    You're new to this basketball stuff aren't you.

  Hey, come on guys. This is the Nuggets note not the Knicks note.

  OK, I'll make a deal with ya. If the Knicks qualify fer the right to 
  play the Nugs in the NBA championship, you can resume yer Knick talk over 
  here. Sound fair ?

	Keith 

>  Hey, come on guys. This is the Nuggets note not the Knicks note.

yabbut this is ::sprots.


HtH,

The Crazy Met

      Maybe its for comparing Basketball against Gangball?
    
      Tim

    Here is a prediction for Game 1 of Utah-Denver:
    
    		  FGM  FGA  FTM  FTA  OR DR REB  PTS
    Karl Malone:   7	13   18   22   6 13  19   32
    
    Ellis and Brian Williams will foul out.  Utah wins 95-83.
    
    NAZZ

    I would take over for a p-name bet nazz but it would be too costly for
    you if he had 23+ fts (and you KNOW where I'm coming from)

    So what was the line for the Mailman lasted night?  It didn't make our
    papers here in Littleton.
    
    NAZZ

  I'm not positive of my figures but I think, if they're not accurate, they're
  close.

	The Jazz won by 9 or 10 points. 

	The Jazz did much better than the Nugs on the offensive boards.

	The Jazz had 41 free throws. The Nugs had about half that many.

	It was a competitive game, but everytime the Nugs cut the lead or
	even took the lead on one occasion in the 3rd, the Jazz would respond
	with a good run.

	Dikembe was sick with a cold but I think he still got 6 or more
	blocks in the game.

	Rauf played a lot better than any game in Seattle. He had 16 points.

	The Nugs did a lot better when they pushed the ball up the court.
 
	Yep, the Mailman and Stocktan were pampered by the refs but the
	Jazz also outplayed the Nugs.

		Keith

>>        <<< Note 92.91 by TNPUBS::NAZZARO "UMass - 1995 NCAA Champs!" >>>

>>    Here is a prediction for Game 1 of Utah-Denver:
>>    
>>    		    FGM  FGA  FTM  FTA  OR DR REB  PTS
>>    Karl Malone:   7	13   18   22   6 13  19   32


Here's how it went down.

		    FGM  FGA  FTM  FTA  REB  PTS  AST
    Karl Malone       9   19    7   11   10   25
    John Stockton     5   13    7    8        17   11


Total fouls
	Denver 31
	Utah   33

I watched the game, and didn't think that either Malone or Stockton
got pampered.  Hell, how many times did Mutombo catch someone with
an elbow that went uncalled?

I'm a Jazz fan, and a big fan of Malone and Stockton.  I'll bet any
of you in here that if either played for your favorite team, you'd
see things a lot differently.

By the way, that Pack is something else.  I'll bet he didn't have to
be rocked to sleep last night.

Jerry

    Unfortunately for the Nuggs, Hornacek is starting to get hot.  He's the
    reason why the series isn't at 2-2.

Jazz are playing great ball, but they're LUCKY it's not 2-2. The Nuggs
let game 3 slip away. Ellis let stars get in his eyes.

josh

  The Jazz won game 3 because they had some hot shooters. Corbin was
  9 fer 11. He usually scores 6 points a game. Stockton and Hornacek were
  13 fer 15 in the final quarter.

  Still the Nugs had 2 chances to put it away in the last minute of regulation
  but failed to score on both possesions.

  This series could easily be 2-2 or 4-0.

  The Fonz has shown signs of being a future super star. 
  
  Rauf may be gone next year. His play in the last 2 series has been less 
  than inspiring. If I wus Bernie Bickerstaff, I'd try to trade Rauf plus 
  this years #1 to get Jason Kidd. But I doubt they'd be able to pull that off.

	Keith

      Go Nuggs!
    
      Ellis showed that Malone can't play defense other than having a big
    body standing there.  Hopefully he will take advantage again instead of
    being intimidated by his all-star status.
    
      Pack will be key and Mutombo should go get Stockton when the guard
    has been picked.  That particlular play decided games 2 & 3 IMO.
    
      Tim

	Blue Mesa+beer+mackinaw=good times with an attitude or altitude

 Cadzilla2

    Tremendous game lasted night by the Nuggets!!!  Brian Williams was a
    steal from the Magic!  If they kept him, they'd still be playing and 
    Denver would be doin' what Shaq and the gang are doin' - nothin'!
    
    Mahmoud hit some big shots, Pack was terrific again, Stith came up big,
    and Mutombo dominated inside.  Stockton obviously was tired and
    couldn't throw the ball in the ocean in the two OTs, and turned the
    ball over a surprising number of times.
    
    NAZZ

Missed the game but ESPN showed a sequence where Felton Spencer and Tom
Chambers missed dunks. Spencer's was too hard and Chambers failed to, how
you say, elevate.

TTom

Gotta love this Nugget team. They should be leading in the series!
They are wearing Utah out - these OTs plus the thin air is what did
in the Sonics (along with some hellacious interior defense), and it
could easily do the same for the Jazz.

How did Ellis do lasted night? If he gets going and forces the 
Mailman to work on D, it could win the series.

How about a Denver-Indiana final? ;)

josh 

    Yeah I think whatever happens, the Nuggs have shown they're for real.

  What can I say, I'm still in shock. I think this Nuggets team has shown
  as much heart as any sports team that I've ever seen including the 80 Olympic
  hockey team. Once again TNT aired a 20 point blowout while the Nuggets
  played another barnburner. When will they learn that the 2 Nugget series 
  have been the most entertaining basketball played this year.

  After the double overtime, when asked what the Nuggets must do to win
  game 6, Brian Williams said "Rest". Both teams looked exhausted at the end,
  but the Jazz looked half dead.

  The Nuggets had 16 blocks lead by Dikembe's 7 with the last 3 or 4 coming
  at critical times in OT. Rauf came outta his slump last night a buried some
  baskets in pressure situations. For the first time that I can remember,
  the Nugs were great at the foul line. 

  As the series goes on, it seems that the Nuggets are getting better at 
  defensing the Jazz and the Jazz are getting worn out. I got the same
  impression in the Sonic series. If the Nuggets hadn't made a couple of stupid
  plays near the end of regulation in game 3, they would be going back to
  Denver with a chance to win the series in game 6.

  During the radio broadcast, they reported that the Jazz owner was yelling 
  at coach Sloan, demanding that he take the Mailman out. Later, the owner got 
  into a fight with a fan and was ejected. And I thought I had seen everything.

  So far in the playoffs we've heard stories of fights, fines, star players 
  deciding to sit out the last critical seconds, players ripping into
  their fans and now outragious behavior by an owner. But with the Nuggets 
  all you hear is "We're just glad to be here". And the team unity couldn't be 
  better. A breath of fresh air.

  Once again, fans camped out at the Nugget ticket office after last night's
  victory. The T-shirt stores can't print Mt Mutombo shirts fast enough to
  satisfy demand. The Nugget's sports store is reporting a 300% increase in 
  daily sales. Nugget mania has hit Colorado.

	Keith

�Once again TNT aired a 20 point blowout while the Nuggets
�  played another barnburner. 
    
    You're kidding!  TNT didn't show the Nuggets game in the team's
    backyard?

>How did Ellis do lasted night? If he gets going and forces the 
>Mailman to work on D, it could win the series.

  Ellis got in foul trouble early and sat out much of the game. He fouled out
  either near the end of regulation or in the first OT. Brian Williams
  stepped up big time in his place.

  The Mailman had a bad night but he did hit a critical 20' jumper with just
  a few seconds remaining to send it into OT.

	Keith

Thursday night TNT will show 3 games:

Hawks-Pacers
Jazz-Nuggets (joined in progress)
Rockets-Suns

The Crazy Met

    My 12 year old got his Abdul-Rauf game shirt in the mail last week,
    just in time for the Jazz-Nuggets series.  Really nice shirt too - the
    road uniform.
    
    NAZZ

>Thursday night TNT will show 3 games:

>Hawks-Pacers
>Jazz-Nuggets (joined in progress)
>Rockets-Suns

Ack! I have 24 hours to get TNT piped into Canada! 

TSN has done a *horrible* job of covering hoops in this
puck-crazy country. Lasted night they showed the Memorial
Cup playoffs (jr hockey) instead of the NBA. You'd think
they'd be trying to build the market, what with 2 teams
coming.....

josh

  Yep, TNT did not broadcast last night's game. Denver's KWGN, ch 2 did 
  broadcast the game. The ratings came out this morning and they were sky high
  at 60%. KWGN's execs were estatic.

	Keith

�TSN has done a *horrible* job of covering hoops in this
�puck-crazy country. 
    
    And after all of that raving Metz and JD did about TSN. HAHAHAHAAHA

    TNT covered it from mid-way through the 4th quarter (when the Rocket
    game went to halftime) to the end...
    

    I thought they praised TSN for it's NHL coverage.

MikeH, you should know by now that facts count for very very little
when Mac and Tommy are involved.

The Crazy Met

    I know TCM, damned if you do, damned if you don't.  There's been 0 to
    none woofing going on around here over the last year and you're in the
    firing line and they somehow expect I'll be next.

  Huge game tonight at Big Mac. Tailgate party starts at 4:30. Tipoff at
  7:00.

  Of course the game is sold out but you can still get a ticket from some
  independent ticket vendors. One vendor quoted prices starting at $75 with
  a high at $450. Another said his tickets start at $150 but wouldn't
  specify the price for his best seats.

  If the Nugs somehow find a way to pull off another miracle and advance
  to the next round, I like their chances better against Houston or Phoenix
  than I ever did with Utah. In all of their games in the regular season
  against those 2 teams, the Nugs played them tough. 

	Keith

    
    
    	Yabbut will da Nuggets win a title before da new Denver Airport
    opens?
    
    ;^)
    

�  Huge game tonight at Big Mac. Tailgate party starts at 4:30. Tipoff at
�  7:00.
    
    I hate to dissapoint you, but I won't be home and the state trooper
    across the street wouldn't take to kindly to a tailgate party.

    
    	Ha!  Big Mac, the man wif a butt big enough to have a party on!
    
    Claybone

The Nuggs are actually *favored* in this one. I hope
it's not a curse.

josh

    
    	It would be AMAZING if the Nuggets tied this back up.
    	Considering they're the youngest team in the league, just
    	wait till they mature....
    
    	Live from Charger Central.....Glenn
    

> Considering they're the youngest team in the league, just
> wait till they mature....

On the other hand keep in mind that the Hornets had a good playoff run
last year and a lot was expected from them this year. They had injuries,
etc. but also couldn't put it together when they had to.

It is fun watching the Nuggets during these playoffs but projecting to
next year is somewhat dicey.

The Crazy Met

  There was an article in today's paper about the altercation between the
  Jazz owner and 2 Nugget fans in game 5. Evidently, the 2 Nugget fans were
  long time season ticket holders and were given tickets to the game by
  a couple of Nugget players. Near the end of halftime, the 2 Nugget fans
  rose to their feet to cheer the Nuggets as they entered the court and started
  to take practice shots. The Jazz owner yelled at them saying that they were 
  blocking his view. Since it was still halftime, the seats next to the Nugget
  fans were empty, so they moved over and continued to cheer the Nuggets
  as they practiced. Then the Jazz owner came over and started throwing 
  punches. Some of the Jazz fans restrained the owner until the security
  guards came and threw him out of the arena. The 2 Nugget fans didn't know
  who he was and thought he was just a fan who got drunk and out of control.
  When people around them told told them he was the Jazz owner, they couldn't
  believe it. They also said that the Jazz fans went out of their way to be
  courteous and polite to the Nugget fans after the incident. Later, the 2
  Nugget fans filed charges with the Salt Lake police.

	Keith 

    To add to what TCM said, it's different when you're playing without
    pressure.  Now that they've done this, people will expect more from
    Denver and lots of teams will be gunning for them next year.  Seattle
    most definitely will be.

    The owner also went to Sloan at the end of the 1st half and told
    him to take the Mailman out of the lineup...
    

Did Sloan listen??

The Crazy Met

    
     Sportscenter showed the owner ranting at the Nuggets fans.
    He was absolutely apoplectic. I thought he was going have
    an aneurism. Then when he went over to Sloan and started 
    going on about the Mailman, it was almost surreal. I hope
    to goodness that the Nuggets can knock Utah out of it be-
    cause this idiot doesn't deserve the trophy.

    I've heard Miller is associated with the Mormon church in some way, so
    I doubt he and Marge would get along.

A few months back, this guy Miller stepped onto the court during a 
game and tried to get into a fight with Elden Campbell.  Campbell
just looked at the guy as if he thought he was some lunatic fan.
He was shocked to find out afterwards that he was an owner.

Ken

    Sloan said he heard Miller say any something but had no clue what he
    said so he didn't pay any attention.
    

  After the Mailman fouled out, the Jazz offense looked helpless. My views
  about the refs preferential treatment of Malone have been expressed
  before. But I'll be the first to admit that the Mailman is a great player
  and deserves to be in the HOF someday. If the Jazz owner wants to make
  the Mailman sit out in a critical game, he's even loonier than I thought.

	Keith

  >  Denver and lots of teams will be gunning for them next year.  Seattle
  >  most definitely will be.

They'll have to do a lot more than that - like dump Cage and Det and
get a real inside player. Barring injuries, the Nuggets look like the 
class of the West nexted year, they have all the pieces and will only 
improve.

josh

    HAH!
    Afterv filing charges(after they found out who was assaulting them),
    watch fer this Nugget couple to file a civil suit seeking damages.
    This dude's gotta have some dinero, no? Tis the Amuricain way
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Nuggets pull out a 94-91 win to tie the series 3-3. Only other team
    to do this was the Knicks in 1951 against Rochester in the NBA Finals.
    Rochester won game 7.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Another spectacular game by the Nuggets!  These guys are really a joy
    to watch!  Down seven after three quarters?  No problem!  Robert Pack
    and Brian Williams continue to be spectacular off the bench.  Pat
    Williams must be grinding his teeth in Orlando every time he sees Brian
    Williams slam one home on the break or grab a big rebound in traffic.
    And I thought the Sherm-Shaw deal was bad?  The Williams for Lichti and
    Cook trade was much worse.
    
    NAZZ

  The All NBA-team just came out. Not one Nugget was on the first team
  or the 2nd team or the 3rd team. Dikembe was the only Nugget to receive
  a vote and he only got 1. Ha, Ha, Ha, Ho, ho......

  The NBA all defensive team was also announced. Not one Nugget was on 
  the first team or the 2nd team or the 3rd team. Dikembe came in 16th 
  in the voting. Ha, Ha, Ha, Ho, ho......

	Keith

    Yea glad to see Mr Mistake dominatin'. Hail if the Nuggets had took
    LJ, they woulda swept according to some..8^)
    
    How bout da Phonz!! Must be his pedigree..
    
    MikeL
    

Gotta LOVE THIS TEAM! As far as comparing Dikembe to Bill Russell,
let's see what happens in Game 7. By game 5 the Sonics were totally
psyched out inside, they couldn't hit a layup. If Malone starts
missing inside even when Dikembe isn't there I'll be convinced.

josh

 now if they could just get rid of the hanger-on Elway.....

 mike

    I'm sure by now that this team has replaced Elway in the local sports
    scene.

BigBadJohn was at McNichols urging the crowd on lasted night. At least
according to ESPN.

TTom

    
    
      I am really trying to be objective about this
    series and the players in it.
    
      But g'damn, if Malone got called for only 10% of the
    fouls he commits, the Nuggets would have won this series
    by now.
    
      He trips folks, grabs arms (and holds on), runs into people, 
    and on and on.
    
      It's ridiculous.
    
    
    
    re: Elway at Big Mac....
    
     so what?  The way I see it, having a rock and roll good time, if
    only for a few hours, gives folks a good escape from all the crap
    they have to put up with once they leave the arena.
    
     Hey, if we all can forget about the real world for a few hours because
    they're/we're  having a good time, what's the problem?
      
     
      

    The Mailman would be perfect for the Knicks.

    
     I'd think Dirty Danny Ainge would be a better fit.

the problem is how many regular season games has Elway been at? I'd venture
a guess at ZERO.........why take tickets away from deserving basketball fans
so a egotistical TV seeking bum with a rag arm can get a seat and his mug
on TV?

Malone should play for the Celtics........we haven't gotten a call in years

mike

All time foul gatherers, IMO, by position:

	C - Wilt Chamberlain
	F - Karl Malone
	F - Larry Bird
	G - Magic Johnson
	G - Michael Jordan

TTom

    Wilt more than Moses?
    

I struggle with that one. If'n you wanna put Moses up there, I ain't got
no problem.

Larry might not be the onliest one at the other forward but Karl, Magic
and Michael have got to be all-time ALLTIMERs.

TTom

    
    re: .147
    
    >>  ........why take tickets away from deserving basketball fans
    >> so a egotistical TV seeking bum with a rag arm can get a seat and
    >> his mug on TV?
    
    
    WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BBJ, SO LEAVE HIS WIFE OUT OF IT!!
    

  Last night's game was on Pay Per View in the Denver area. The number of
  subscribers was over 100% more than the previous record for a PPV event.
  The cable company's technology broke down since it had never been tested
  with that many subscribers. On top of that, there was a thunderstorm
  which also played havoc with the system. Today, they're giving 50% and
  100% refunds depending on the outage to most of their customers.

	Keith

>the problem is how many regular season games has Elway been at? I'd venture
>a guess at ZERO.........why take tickets away from deserving basketball fans
>so a egotistical TV seeking bum with a rag arm can get a seat and his mug
>on TV?
 
How's about Spike Lee in MSG or some of the fauex fans in Phoenix "Heiser". 
This is what the NBA feeds on this is FANtastic. 


Best quote of the series was from Dan Issel about the NBC crew. He said that 
"after last Saturday I'll bet these guys never expected to see us again"

Jeff

    Actually, pro athletes seem to support each other pretty well.  Steve
    Beurlein has Suns' season tickets and Barkley, Joyner, and Simmons go
    back to their Philly days.

    Spike Lee has season tickets, in his defense...
    

 and Spike Lee ain't on the court playing with the Mascot just to get on
 TV.........

 Arsenio would have been a better comparison..........

 mike

    
    Nuggs go down in Game 7 ...
    
    Malone and the Jazz got EVERY call in the book, but to their credit
    held the Nuggs to 38% from the field (and it was ugly from the stripe
    too !) ...
    
    I despise Karl Malone, and the way the NBA treats him. On an up note,
    
    
    Phoenix goes down !!! Se ya' Chuck !
    
    - acp

  The Nuggets wild ride in the playoffs is over, but a dream for the future
  remains alive. For me, this playoff run was certainly one of the more 
  memorable sports stories that I have ever witnessed. When the playoffs 
  started, most people expected the Nugs to be out in 3 games. All they did 
  was set 3 NBA records and tie a 4th that hadn't been equaled in 42 years. 
  With a bunch of rejects and no-names, they won over fans not just from the
  Colorado area but from all over the nation. Here are some things I'll
  never forget:

	o  I've never seen as many homemade signs in any sports arena or
	   stadium as I saw in McNichols arena for game 6. In other stadiums
	   you may see lots of signs but they were the kind that are handed 
	   out at the door or sold at a conssesion stand. But the ones we saw
	   in game 6 were made in the fan's garages and basements.

	o  Dan Issel with a smile on his face as he hugged Robert Pack and
	   Reggie Williams after each missed a opporitunity to seal the
	   victory against Seattle in game 4.

	o  Visions of Dikembe's blocked shots turned into Nugget fast breaks
	   as Sonic and Jazz players seemed to have a look of shock on their
	   faces.

	o  A gigantic smile on the face of Bryant Stith and other Nuggets in 
	   their post game interviews

	o  Seatle and Jazz players going into the paint with what looked like 
	   confidence until the saw the shadow of Mt Mutombo. Then we'd see 
	   them turn around or try to shoot a moon ball over the big fella.

		Keith

Watching Saturday's game I saw a Bench rider on the Nuggets that I couldn't 
Identify tall white player with long black hair and beard. 

Kinda like a 6'-7" Al Pacino 

Jeff

    Jim Farmer?
    Mark Randall?
    

>Identify tall white player with long black hair and beard. 

  Mark Randall. He grew up in Denver and played for Kansas

	Keith

>>  Mark Randall. He grew up in Denver and played for Kansas


One expensive cheerleader and ugly as well. 

Jeff

      Well I'm glad they did what they did.  The nuggets suprised me, and
    as stated earlier,  if their free throw % was better,  the Nuggets
    would have lost to Houston last night instead of the Jazz.
    
      Pack or Rauf will be gone next year.  Pack has great defensive
    skills, but he lacks control.  Rauf is all offense and no defense.
    
      Scott Skiles has been mentioned alot.
    
    
      Tim
      

  The Nugs plucked a Rose in the draft. Any BIG10 fans out there who have
  any comments on Jalen Rose ? Nuggets GM, Bernie Bickerstaff and company
  were elated when Rose fell to the 13th pick. They tried to trade up
  to get him in an earlier round but all of those efforts failed so everything
  worked out better than expected. Bickerstaff has really impressed me with
  his eye for talent. I'm glad they didn't trade away any of the young
  players who did so well in the playoffs. The Nuggets had a lot of team
  chemistry and I'm glad they didn't break it up.

  They hope to use Rose as a point guard which should free up Rauf for more
  shots. I'm very optimistic for next year.

	Keith

I could live with the red pinstriped suit it made commish Stern look like a 
circus clown for these young clowns.  Yesterday with the team you could tell 
that this guy is very happy to be with a team that has playoff hopes next year
not like Washington where Juwan Howard is headed for a dismal season.
Rose has all the potential of Marcus Liberty in my book at this time, only 
his own efforts will prove weather or not he'll make it big time. 
The only other down side is his free throw % not the best in the world. 

JEff

    I think it's a great pick for them and only makes a good young team
    better.

    Denver's not that far off from being the team in the west, a few of the 
    top teams are getting old and will lose major puzzle pieces in the next
    few years, denver's young and Hungrey... Look out.  On the FreeThrow %,
    a player can improve this, if they spend adequete time practicing free
    throws while playing very LOUD tape of crowds they can get this down,
    but if they do what Shaq does and spend the offseason doing commercials
    and movies you will end up being a Target down the stretch of close
    games and everytime you touch the ball you will be foul'd...
    
    Good luck denver, you should come around in the next few years...
    (Better then LA being back on top :-)..)
    
    								MaB

      Rose's free throw % fits right in with the rest of the Nuggs, with
    the exception of Rauf.
    
      Rose at PG at what 6'8"?  He will be able to see the floor better
    than the other guys.  I wonder what this means for Pack?
    
      Tim

    as a long time Wolverine fan, I'm elated the nuggets selected Rose.
    I think Rose will add just the right amount of cockiness to the team.

  About a month ago, Seattle or Portland(don't remember which) tried to
  hire Nugget General Manager Bernie Bickerstaff as their GM. A couple of
  days ago, the San Antonio Spurs tried to hire him as their head coach.
  He turned everybody down and said he's happy in Denver. That's good news
  because as far as I'm concerned, he's the Nugget's MVP. He rescued this 
  franchise a few years ago and has proven he has a real eye for talent.

	Keith

  Dan Issel and all of his assistant coaches were just given contract
  extensions and big raises. It good to see that COMSAT(owner of the Nugs)
  has recognized and rewarded a job well done.

	Keith

    anybody out there seen Jalen Rose play yet? 
    I'm a big Wolverine fan and was just wondering how Jalen is doing.

Looked real good in a Nugget team scrimage here in the Springs last week. 
22 points and a Jam right in the face if Deke. Only problem is on defense he 
looks slower that Mokmood(SP). His height is a real bonus for the team though. 

JEff

    good to here, should really help the team, thanks for the info.

  Well, the Nuggets played their first 2 games of the year over the weekend.	
  They soundly beat the Timberwolves and lost a close one to the Warriors.
  Here's my impression so far:

	Robert Pack looks like the most improved player on the team.
	In the 1st 2 games, he's only turned the ball over once. He led the
	team in turnovers last year. I believe he scored over 20 points
	in both games.

	Rodney Rodgers has also shown dramatic improvement. At times, he looks
	unstoppable. He'll see a lot of playing time early in the season
	since Laphonso Ellis is still doing rehab for a knee injury. He seems
	to get into foul trouble easily. 

	Dale Ellis was great in the first game but stunk up the stadium in the
	2nd game. If he wouldda made just 1 or 2 of his wide open jumpers
	in the 2nd game, the Nugs would be undefeated.

	Jalen Rose has shown a lot of potential but also makes rookie mistakes.
	He'll get better as the year goes on.

	The team has a lot of depth. This was a problem in previous years but 
	not now.

  I don't like some of the new rules. There's too many illegal defense and
  ticky tack fouls. I'm all for putting a stop to taunting and mugging type
  fouls but I also like to watch good defense. Games where both teams score
  over 120 points are not fun for me. Also, with more and more fouls, we
  end up spending more and more time watching free throws instead of the fun
  fast paced action.

		Keith

    I agree with you on the too many foul calls, i was watching the 
    nuggets-minnesota game and it seemed that all they did was shoot
    foul shots. I think they need to revise some of the rule changes.

  Nuggets win again last night on the road against the Mavericks. Rodney
  Rodgers looks awesome. Once the Phonz gets over his injury, it will be
  Reggie Williams who will be yanked from the starting lineup, not Rodgers.
  Packman continues to impress at point guard.

  The Mavericks look like an improved team. They should win twice as many 
  games as last year.

	Keith

    How about that Popeye Jones!  He was my rotis team's coup of the week!

  Yep, Popeye Jones looked like he ate some spinach last night. Kidd and 
  Jackson were also very impressive. If Tarpley returns to his old form and 
  doesn't get kicked outta the NBA, Dallas will surprise a lot of people 
  this year. But they have non-existent talent on the bench.

	Keith

    gotta love that name too!  He must've did spinach all summer because
    he's more than doubled his averages in every category from last year.

    Looking at the Nuggets roster gives some hope for very successful
    season.  You have Motumbo, Levingston, B Williams at center, Rogers,
    R Williams, Laphonso, and Hammonds at forward, Pack, Stith, Ellis,
    Rose, and MahMoud at guard.  B Williams can play at center or forward.
    The Nuggets have alot of youth and alot of different lineup combos.
    

  The Nuggets are without their 3 best forwards. Laphonso Ellis, Brian Williams
  and Rodney Rodgers are all out with injuries. Even with their bandaid
  lineup and no backup for Mutumbo, they won their last 2 games. 
  Mutumbo is playing like the best defensive player in the NBA since Bill 
  Russell. He played the entire game against LA including an overtime period.

  They'll be on TNT tuesday night against San Antone. Good time to watch the 
  big fella block some shots and turn em into fast breaks.

	Keith

  Nuggets defeat the Spurs last night to go 5-1 for the season. This is the
  best start for the club since '76. They continue to win with an injury
  riddled lineup. How good will they be when the Phonz and Brian Williams
  return to the lineup ? 

  I only got to see part of the first half but at least I got to see Tom
  Hammonds slam dunk one in the Admiral's face and I really mean in the face.

  Next up is the Pistons and then the Rocketts. Should be a big game against
  Houston.

	Keith  

I caught this game on TNT and I was really impressed with the way the
Nuggets hung together in the second half.

In the firsted half it was all Nuggets but in the 3rd quarter the Spurs
behind the Admiral came back hard. I thought that Issel was gonna throwd
out over some of the calls. And meanwhile Mutombo was on the pine with
foul troubles. But Robert Pack, with 30 pts, Tom Hammnds and Bryant Stith
carried Denver to the victory.

TTom

    I forgot that game was on.  Who is the nugget "the Phonz".
    
    There was a Tom Stith in my day who was a star in college but not in
    pros.  St Bonaventure may have been his team.
    
    He would have been competing with Lenny Wilkins pc team or perhaps a
    little earlier.

I guess "Phonz" is LaPhonso Ellis who seems chronically injured.

Rodney Rogers played some lasted night. The Nuggets played some with him
in the middle and Hammonds at PF while Mutombo got his rest.

Spurs continue to look like the Admiral and Friends. With Robinson,
they are a .500 team. Without him, they'd be getting good odds on a low
pick.

TTom

  Yep, "the Phonz" is LaPhonso Ellis, a 3rd year lottery pick outta Notre Dame.
  He acquired a stress fracture on his knee cap in a pickup game this summer.
  He should be back at full strength in mid December. Actually, this is the 
  first injury I remember him having. Last year, he showed signs of being a
  future star. He's probably the 2nd best player on the team next to the Big
  Fella. He's good at scoring but is the best Nugget forward at defense.

  Rodney Rogers had a toenail removed from one of his big toes about 5 days
  ago. Last night was his first appearance since the removal. It hurts, just 
  thinking about playing like that.

  Robert Pack(man) continues to amaze everybody. Last year the talk shows
  were trying to run him outta town. I'm glad Dan Issel and Bernie Bickerstaff
  didn't listen.

	Keith

    How long is Brian Williams out for?

>    How long is Brian Williams out for?

  A couple more weeks.

	Keith

  I read an interesting stat in today's paper. In the Nugget/Spur game a 
  couple a night's ago, the longest time between a refs whistle was 32 
  seconds. That means the longest those guys were allowed to play continuos 
  basketball was just over a half minute. Is this what the NBA really wants ?
  I can't wait to see the the new NBA highlight films. Malone steps to the 
  foul line, he shoots with a high arc, will it go in.., YES, what a shot
  what a play...Malone steps to the foul line, he shoots ...............
  .............

	Keith

  The Fonz is out for the season. The rehab on his knee did not go well
  and the Docs decided he needed surgery. He may never be the same.
  Without the Fonz, the Nugs will probably make the playoffs but I doubt
  they'll have the same success as last year. The Fonz just had a way of
  pumping up the fans and Nuggets. 

	Keith	

    I was disappointed as well.  I was expecting the McNuggets to make some
    noise this year.

  Watched the Nuggets/Magic game last night. The Nuggets couldn't get a
  good roll and were called for a gagillion ticky-tack fouls. 
  Meanwhile, Shaq played more like a middle linebacker and was never called
  for a foul.

  Also, the Magic totally outplayed the Nuggets in every facet of the game.
  It all added up to an real ugly lose.

  The Nuggets really miss the Fonz. Dikembe can play well, but he doesn't
  add much to the team chemistry like the Fonz does. The way things are 
  going, the Nugs might not make the playoffs.

	Keith

	In a BIG shocker, Dan Issel resigned yesterday as sthe coach.  He
	will still be with the Nuggets in some sort of capacity.  Gene Littles
	will take over.  Dan said he wasn't smiling anymore and wasn't happy
	with the kind of guy he was becoming.

	Kevin

When's the Bring Back Moe campaign gonna start?

Sorry, but Gene Little won't get it done.

TTom

  Sorry to see Dan Issel quit. But, he wasn't happy being a head coach so
  I can understand his decision. Issel helped to rescue the Nuggets when it
  seemed like everything was going wrong. Issel was the type of guy that
  everyone seemed to like. I'll miss him.

  The injury to Laphonso Ellis has really hurt this team. There's been talk
  of trading to get Pippen. Who knows if that would be good or bad, depends
  on what they have to give up. If Laphonso was healthy, they wouldn't need 
  him.

	Keith

	Now, 'ol Ralph Routen (local sports columnist) is saying Issel got
	canned and his retirement was the best way to save face for all
	parties.

	Kevin

But why would Issel get fired??

The Crazy Met

|But why would Issel get fired??

...uhh, maybe he didn't win enough games.

	A few points I remember from the article:

	1.  There seemed to be a "generation gap" between Issel and the players.
	    Folks were pissin and moanin about their playing time and Issel
	    couldn't keep everybody happy,

	2.  Inconcistency from the bench.  One game someone would play 35 
	    minutes, the next they would play two.

	A lot of people around here have their own opinions about the opinions
	of Ralph though...

	Kevin

    Well Abdul-Rauf had a sensational game vs Celtics out there but he has
    to divvy time up with Pack.  Both seem to be top guards and both seem
    to be point guards.
    
    Denver with injuries seems to be a little short at forward though.

|    Well Abdul-Rauf had a sensational game vs Celtics out there but he has
|    to divvy time up with Pack.  Both seem to be top guards and both seem
|    to be point guards.
    
|    Denver with injuries seems to be a little short at forward though.

Hmm, how 'bout either one of these guys for Sherman Douglas?

=Bob=-for-NAZZ

    In your dreams Bob.  I could possibly see a Radja for Rauf deal; bet
    I'm one of the few that would go for it.
    
    Sherm as backup (legit) seems to work better as he is pressed to
    compete for time.

>               <<< Note 92.195 by HBAHBA::HAAS "dingle lingo" >>>
>                                  -< seen it >-
>>
>When's the Bring Back Moe campaign gonna start?
>
>Sorry, but Gene Little won't get it done.
>
>TTom


	Boy, so far you got that right TTom.  I think they've only won one
	game since he took over.  They got stomped at Houston and last night
	they were spanked by Utah (@ Utah) something like 129-88.  Looks
	like the city of Denver will be looking for another coach pretty soon.

	Kevin

    They will be in the running for another top draft pick though...
    

  This morning's Rocky Mtn News had an arcticle in the sports section
  about the Nuggets plan to try to acquire Chris Webber to play power
  forward. 

  If you can read behind the lines, it tells me that the Nuggets are not
  optimistic about Laphonso Ellis being able to recover from his knee
  injury. Too bad. The Fonz is very popular in Colorado and showed signs
  of being a great player before his unfortunate injury.

     Keith     

    
    Keith, 
    
    Are you sure about the Nuggets plan, or is it really some writers wish
    to make a story?  My understanding was that there was a reasonable
    chance he would be fine for next season.
    
    Marc
    

  Marc, I don't have the RMN article with me but after reading it, I got the
  impression that the writer had communications with either Bikerstaff or
  someone else high up in the Nuggets organization. It definately
  wasn't idle speculation.

  What I said about the injury to Lapohnso Ellis is speculation but it's
  a rumor I'm hearing more and more on the radio talk shows.

  I agree, Webber comes across as a mercenary to me. If I had my choice,
  I'd take a healthy Fonz over Webber.

	Keith

       No defense = dallas win from 3 point land!

	The Nuggets beat the Magic last night but that's not the story.  Rauf
	refuses to stand for the national anthem so he gets suspended 
	indefinately without pay by the NBA.  Nuggets owners stand by the NBA
	decision.  Rauf says it's a belief but Denver Muslim leaders say they
	know of no contradiction between standing for the anthem and the Muslim
	faith.  Rauf says the flag stands for oppression and tyranny and he
	can't support that.

	Kevin

    So does that mean he doesn't use US currency either? All those bills
    are covered with symbols of tyranny and oppression.

	'Course that dirt bag has no problem spending the money 
	that "oppressive" country prints.

	It's a good thing they take the chains and shackles off
	long enough to allow him to play.  It would make the 
	jam that much harder otherwise.



	billl

	notes collision!

....and how can he be an employee of Big Business America ??  All the
corporations involved with the NBA are at the heart of the oppression
in this country.  He's being used/exploited and he don't even know it !!!

      
      If its in your contract to stand, then stand, if not, then pay the
    consequences (sp?).
    
      Tim

>      If its in your contract to stand, then stand, if not, then pay the
>    consequences (sp?).
    

Good points raise on Imus this morning:


	a) why didn't the league, if they were having such a problem 
	   with it, speak with him privately prior to pulling the
	   suspension.


	b) If it were Michael Jordan, would the league have suspended
	   him.  (To which Bernie answered -- "It wouldn't matter because
	   Nike would tell him to stand and Jordan would stand").


All of that being said, if this guy don't like it he can leave.  Like others
have said he's taking the money, he's living here -- probably better than I am,
so if this place is so oppressive, hey, he can send his paycheck to me, and get
his ass on the next boat out.


I've noticed an appalling lack of respect when it comes to the Anthem and the
flag lately anyway.  I was very surprised when I did a Color Guard detail last
fall and as we marched down the street even the cops didn't know to salute the
Colors as they went by.  Sheesh.


'Saw

>so if this place is so oppressive, hey, he can send his paycheck to me, and get
>his ass on the next boat out.

It sounds like people are assuming that the guy emigrated here.  He went to
LSU, and had a given name of Chris Jackson.

Yeah, it definitely sounds like the guy has lost touch with reality.  Not just
for defying something that is simply a show of respect, but from the pathetic
excuse that he gave for doing so.  Reply 211 ("Denver Muslim leaders say they
know of no contradiction between standing for the anthem and the Muslim
faith") closes the door on just about the only rational objection that I can
think of.

A guy who can nail threes like he can could make plenty of money in Europe.
Let's hope he goes there.

Just let the guy sit in the lockerroom till it's over. I respect his stance even
if I'm not in agreement with it so work out a compromise. As stated it reeks of
the non-superstar vs. superstar treatment.......

mike

>so if this place is so oppressive, hey, he can send his paycheck to me, and get
>his ass on the next boat out.

>It sounds like people are assuming that the guy emigrated here.  He went to
>LSU, and had a given name of Chris Jackson.

No, I knew he was from here.  That don't mean he has to stay here.

Let him try some place that's much more libertarian, say, Iran, Iraq or
Lebannon.....


>Let's hope he goes there.

Let's hope he gets a life.

He has a life and he has his beliefs. The fact that he's ready to stand by those
beliefs says to me that he's living his life the way he wants without compromise
and should be applauded for sticking to those beliefs instead of being crucified
for going against the status quo.

mike

>
>He has a life and he has his beliefs. The fact that he's ready to stand by those
>beliefs says to me that he's living his life the way he wants without compromise
>and should be applauded for sticking to those beliefs instead of being crucified
>for going against the status quo.
>

Except for the fact that he signed a contract and in doing so agreed to uphold
the rules and regulations of the NBA.  

It's no different than sitting right here where I am now.

When I agreed to employment here at digital I agreed implicitly to certain
terms which go against my grain.  I cannot put whatever I want on the walls of
my cube.  If I want to put a Kathy Ireland swimsuit calendar up, I cannot,
because some might find it offensive.  It is, in essence, curtailing my right
to free speech, just as restrictions on what I can say in Notes curtails my
right to free speech.  

I don't like that, but it IS a condition of my employment.


If Rauf didn't like that clause, he shouldn't have signed the contract.  Or he
could go play hoops someplace else..... Or any other of a gazillion other
options that would solve his problem.

	I guess it's Politicly Correct to jump up and support
	the "oppressed" who "live in a state of tyranny", but
	this jerk isn't and aint.

	Let him "march to his own drummer" in a truely oppressive
	society for a while.  Then, and only then, will he see 
	how much respect he should for this country and it's
	values.


	billl

	You know, in these days of megabuck contracts, it's easy to lose sight
	of just how much these guys make.  Rauf's salary is a little over $3M
	per year.  by sitting out without pay it's costing him almost $40K
	per game.  If making $40K per game is oppression, oppress me!

	Kevin

>	You know, in these days of megabuck contracts, it's easy to lose sight
>	of just how much these guys make.  Rauf's salary is a little over $3M
>	per year.  by sitting out without pay it's costing him almost $40K
>	per game.  If making $40K per game is oppression, oppress me!

Some oppressive country!

He makes more in ONE GAME, playing a game with a round ball, sticking it
in a hoop, than my dad ever made in TWO YEARS before he retired.

Who contributed more to his country?  My dad by a longshot.


'Saw

      The nuggs have been playing better as of late without him. Most games
    have been home games, but the point is that other players are now
    getting the ball more, thus showing that there are other scorers on the
    nuggs, heck even Mutumbo hit some 12'-15'jump shots last night!
    
      Now its a 6 game road trip, so if he doesn't come back, hopefully we
    can see this trend continue.
    
      Tim

    
    
       You guys amaze me?
    
            If someone is doing something because of his beliefs the more
    power to him. What the Muslim law is and his own may just be a little
    different. 
    
           In no way am I saying that people should not be honoring our
    flag. I spent 4 years in the US Navy and I am probably the most
    patriotic person I know. (in my private life)
    
    
           Unless I'm mistaken, most of you have no right to talk about
    oppression. Can I assume that most of us are White Males? What the hell
    would we know about oppression. The Native Americans as well as African
    Americans have been oppressed since Eric the Red first walked off that
    gang plank.
    
       As far as we know, everyone of Chris's friends, may have been beaten
    or Jailed by his local precinct of White Male police officers.
    
            Don't talk about Oppression.
    Chap 

    Well if he's giving up 40k per game to do it whatever else we think
    about him he's certainly sincere.  Someone should have counseled him to
    make his stand or statement in a more sensible (and perhaps cheaper)
    way.  Dr. Edwards in 1968 used a black power salute for which he is
    generally respected today along with Ali.
    

>            Don't talk about Oppression.

Some of us aren't.  'Saw summed it up pretty well in .222:

>Except for the fact that he signed a contract and in doing so agreed to uphold
>the rules and regulations of the NBA.  

If he wants to take his stand, fine.  But this is something he knew about
in advance.  He signed the contract, and has been complying for years.  If
he doesn't want to comply, he's free to ply his wares elsewhere where the
offending regulation doesn't apply.

I guess I think I'd have a lot more respect for the guy if he'd done this 
years ago when he converted.  It strikes me as a grandstand move at this point.

>       You guys amaze me?

Are you sure, or is there still a question in your mind??

    
>           Unless I'm mistaken, most of you have no right to talk about
>    oppression. Can I assume that most of us are White Males? What the hell
>    would we know about oppression. The Native Americans as well as African
>    Americans have been oppressed since Eric the Red first walked off that
>    gang plank.

Okay, so let me get this straight.

White males have absolutely no knowledge of what oppression is.  Ergo, they
have no right to make any comment on what oppression is.

If that is the case, the perhaps Rauf is right.  I mean, after all, there was
more than a couple of white males who stormed the beach at Normandy to help end
oppression there (6 million or so of which Jews in concentrations camps, and
probably included a helluva lot of white males, unless the films I saw of
corpses really WERE staged).

Therefore, since the aforementioned white males who crawled out of the surf
into the machine gun fire on the aforementioned beach, obviously had no idea
what they were fighting for, ergo they MUST have been oppressed by the ruling
masses of this oppressive regime we call America.

I think this Rauf is onto something here.  I'd better call the New York Times.

I can't wait to get home.  Here my dad thought all these years that he was
fighting oppression in World War II, when in essence he was actually being
oppressed himself -- I mean, let's face it, there's nothing more oppressive
than being forced into a 200' long steel tube, shoved under the ocean and
forced to undergo depth charging to fight something you know nothing about.
I'll bet it was the Great White Tyrant Roosevelt that was behind it.


And I'd better call my uncle too and tell him what a sham the Marine Corps is.
The Leathernecks obviously have no idea what oppression is, because if they
did, perhaps it would actually be mentioned in the Marine Corps Hymn.  Well,
wait a minute -- some of them would know....the Dark Green Marines would know.


    
>       As far as we know, everyone of Chris's friends, may have been beaten
>    or Jailed by his local precinct of White Male police officers.
    
Yep.  All White Male police officers (and probably quite a few white lesbian
female police officers as well) engage in beating black basketball players
friends.  You can take that to the bank along with the fact that all black
people are shiftless, all Italians are greasy men who pinch girls in their
asses, all Scots are stingy, all Irish men are drunks, and all Jews are
inferior subhumans as depicted by Goebels in his propaganda films.



>            Don't talk about Oppression.

Chappy, you're right.  We White Males don't know SQUAT about oppression.
We cause it, no doubt (but how would we know) and ergo as part of the cause we
can't be part of the solution, unless of course it's a Hitlerian Final
Solution.



Chappy, thank you for englightening me.  I never knew any of this before!

    
    Couple of points...
    
    >Chris Jackson is just another Louis Farrakhan pawn and isn't smart
    >enough to realize he's being used.  He makes a stand for a belief that
    >doesn't exist in Islam.  Nice try.
    
    1.  Rauf used the EXACT words of Farrakhan's speach a couple weeks ago.
    
    2.  Rauf has been ignoring the "stand to the flag" for two weeks now. 
    It did not start last night.  He was doing it by being in the "runway"
    instead of on the floor during the anthem.  The leaque was aware of
    this information and it wasn't until last night that the leaque did
    anything about it.
    
    I suspect that one of two things will result from this event.  Either
    Rauf is gone from the NBA or the two parties agree that the "runway"
    route is sufficient.
    
    Marc
    

I would think they'd have to strike a compromise because
of our twisted laws he could probably sue for millions
over the right of lost income due to personal beliefs
etc.

    
    
    'Saw maybe your uncle or father should come in and talk about
    oppression than.
    
         I really didn't mean that all white males don't know anything
    about oppression. I just meant we shouldn't be judging him. I saw a few
    notes saying he's making 3 million a year therefore he does not know
    oppression.
    
           His Race has been oppressed for hundreds of years in what we
    call the best and fairest country of all? 
    
          People shouldn't infer he does not know oppression because of the
    size of his wallet. When it seems its his skin type which he mentioned
    that was oppressed all these years.
    
    
    Chap

> If he wants to take his stand, fine.  But this is something he knew about
> in advance.  He signed the contract, and has been complying for years.  If
> he doesn't want to comply, he's free to ply his wares elsewhere where the
> offending regulation doesn't apply.
> 
> I guess I think I'd have a lot more respect for the guy if he'd done this 
> years ago when he converted.  It strikes me as a grandstand move at this point.

  He has done this all year long and most of last year.  My question is, why
  is Mr. Stern doing this now, and why didn't he discuss it with the player
  in question before the edict ?

  I think, if there is a law suit here, the NBA goes down in flames.

OK, then I have to re-evaluate for two reasons:

1) I didn't know about the "runway" part of it.  Contractually, he's still
   wrong, but at least this is a tasteful and reasonably respectful form of
   demurring.  I had a vision of him sitting down on the bench while his
   teammates stood, in full view of 15K people.

2) I also didn't know he's been doing this for a while.  It's been reported
   in the news as if this were something new.

I think Rich is right - the NBA is screwed if Rauf pursues this.  By letting
it go for an extended period of time, they've established a precedent.

>            <<< Note 92.231 by CAM::WAY "There's the devil to pay!" >>>

   I hate to say this, because I don't think ALL blacks are oppressed, but
   I think .231 is the stupidest thing I've ever read that Saw has written,
   frankly (no pun intended).

   Having lived in the South for nearly 15 years, I can honestly say that
   even in "enlightened" parts of the country, blacks are routinely treated
   with significantly less respect than whites, and are expected to just shrug
   it off.

   The United States is a great country, greatest the in the world.  While
   I was lucky not to have served in the armed forces, most of my predecessors
   have risked their lives at times for this nation of ours.  But the
   politicos who have run it are much more concerned about the white male
   even today, than with any other group, and it has been much worse in the
   past.  It has mostly to do with power, and exercise of power.  Seems Saw,
   with his suspicion of the powers that be in a small company like Digital,
   might see that there may well have been a lot of abuse of authority over
   the years towards groups with no power.  And, lets face it, I can't see
   how the U.S. government has really done much of significance towards making
   amends over PAST injustices towards minority peoples.

   I currently attend church in a congregation that is about 75% native
   American, and the government didn't do anything about honoring its own
   treaties with them until the tribe threatened to file a mass lawsuit
   against homeowners in a large section of land once taken from the tribe,
   with a promise of a settlement.  That settlement was over 40 years in coming.
   And frankly, that is what I think that Big Brother (the federal gov't)
   treats those without power.  We can go on about the IRS, judicial system,
   etc.

   While the concepts imbedded in the U.S.Constitution are the most lofty
   set of standards for government yet, I think the reality of how individuals
   can exercise those rights is far from what the document(s) implies.
   Justice doesn't really exist in America today, and anyone who thinks it
   does is ... well, never mind.

   Thank God for men and women who have served this nation in defending the
   rights of people here and abroad.  Still, there are legitimate reasons to
   criticize the performance of the powers that be.

    
                                                      
    Do the Canadians, Russians and other non-american players stand during
    the playing of our national anthem? The American baseball players stand in
    Toronto and Montreal.  Does he stand for "Oh Canada" when the Nuggets play
    the Raptor's or Grizzlies? 
    
    We used to call it respect. You respect the country or the countries
    national symbols. If he has no respect for America, then get his basketball
    dribbling butt the hell out of the country and leave it to those that do 
    have the respect the country deserves.
    
    

    
    
    
       Yup thats the attitude! Ship them all out Huh?

	Is it illegal to burn a flag now???   I know there was some bill
	in government land about this but I don't remember the outcome.
	My point is that if it is legal to burn an American flag what's 
	the difference between that an Anthem?

	j.b.(Vietnam Vet and very patriotic) Home of the Free. The best!

    re .239
    
      You don't get freedom for free, you have to pay your dues!
    
      Yes this Rauf thing has been going on for a long time, and
    according to the local rag, fans attending the game called one of
    the denver radio stations complaining about the situation, and of
    course once the media got involved the NBA felt they had to do
    something.  They did talk to him and asked if he would go ahead and
    stand, and he said no, so the NBA suspended him.
    
      Tim 

	Chappy, try to think of it this way....

	Would I be right if I protested the death of my uncle at
	the hands of the Japanese during WWII by refusing to show
	respect to their anthem if I was at a sporting event where
	it was played?  I don't think so.

	The point, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that there
	have been no reports of him, himself, was ever oppressed
	by the U.S. government.  Claiming it's a belief of the 
	Nation of Islam was already disapproved.


	billl

    
    Whether or not Jackson (I reserve my right of free speech in 
    referring to the man as Chris Jackson, as not to disrespect the 
    legitimate religion of Islam) has the right to sit down during 
    the national anthem, or whether or not he's been doing so all
    along, it's still pretty damned stupid.  Basically, instead of
    making any kind of strong, critical statement, the guy is making
    an ass of himself.  But hey, that probably is his right, contract
    or no contract.
    
    glenn
     

  They should throw his butt off the team. Who does he think it is anyway? 

  Actually the history of this goes back a long way. Back some 200 years ago
some good decent people were trying to settle this continent for the good and
righteous king, his Royal Majesty King George III when this bunch of rabble
rousers waving publications from that heretic John Lock came up with this
treasonist notion that governments should only exist to serve the people and
that governments that fail this are not even worthy of support. 

  As all truly good Englishmen knew at that time that notion was rubbish. It is
the people who exist to serve his royal majesty and they should rightly swing
from the gallows if they don't bend a knee to the King and the good government
he provides to steer their unless lives. 

  Well the good king is gone but we have in it's place a new Government wise
and grand here to put meaning in the lives of the peasants who dwell on this
continent. And that government has made our lives even the simpler by providing
us with a flag and a song and a simple instruction that all we need to do to
show our devotion is to stand before those symbols when they are presented. Why
there is no need any more to even kneel, simply to stand in silence and withhold
any protest. Can anything be more simple? 

  Throw him off the team indeed, why back in the day of his Royal Majesty he
wouldn't be asked to leave he would be forced to flee for his life or if caught
he would pray to swing at the end of a long rope. Who doth he think he is
questioning the symbols of this great nation?

  This notion of Freedom spelled trouble from the 1st, it must be brought to a
stop before we are reduced to pure anarchy. Throw him from the team. Throw him
from the league. Throw him from the highest peak, then bend a knee and worship
the government. Give thanks that they show you the way to live and condescend to
rule your miserable lives. 

  George 

    
    
         I'm not saying that I approve of what Mahmoud is doing. But I do
    think its his right as an American Citizen to do what he wants under
    the rights of Free Speech and choice.
    
       BTW I believe it under one of the edicts to being a muslim it says
    "You shall not worship anything or anyone but God. " ie the flag, the
    anthem, etc....

    Wait a minute. No one is talking about sending him to prison. Of course
    he has the right under the first amendment to sit during the anthem.
    The NBA also has the right to expect him to abide by his contract and
    to suspend or terminate him if he fails to uphold his agreed conditions
    of employment. If he were negotiating a new contract and requested the
    clause be removed, I would have much more respect for him. To suddenly
    decide that this year he's not going to abide by his contract after
    doing so in the past is not only hypocritical, but farcical.
    
    Chris

    
    
    
        Radio announcer for Denver was on EEI yesterday. He said Mahmoud
    has been doing this going on three years now. He said at times he has
    stayed back in the corrider or in the lockerroom. He also has either
    stood with his face buried in his chest or sat down. 
    
    
        Just now he is being admonished.
    
    
    chap

RE                      <<< Note 92.247 by NIOSS1::REEVE >>>

>    Wait a minute. No one is talking about sending him to prison. 

  Nor should they. A dungeon or tower is the proper place to hold a treasonist
heretic until someone can be found to dispose of this plague in a manner that
will send a true message to the population.

  What if our children get wind of this? How are we to teach them the value
of rules and obedience to His Royal Majesty and to his symbols if someone
so brazen is callously flaunting his treason in public arena?

  Gawd save our soles, Gawd save the King, GAWD SAVE THIS GREAT NATION!!!

  TO THE RACK WITH HIM!!!!!

  George

>    We used to call it respect. You respect the country or the countries
>    national symbols. If he has no respect for America, then get his basketball
>    dribbling butt the hell out of the country and leave it to those that do 
>    have the respect the country deserves.

     That's the solution.  We don't like his level of intolerance, so let us
     be intolerant instead.    
    

>
>   I hate to say this, because I don't think ALL blacks are oppressed, but
>   I think .231 is the stupidest thing I've ever read that Saw has written,
>   frankly (no pun intended).
>

Then obviously you didn't read it in the right frame of mind.

I'm a white male.  According to Chappy's logic, I know nothing of oppression,
and by extension I'm guilty of every sin perpetrated on every minority within
this country, mainly because of my White Anglo-Saxon Protestant background.

That's what's stupid.  I'm not denying that there has been racism, THAT would
be stupid.

>   Having lived in the South for nearly 15 years, I can honestly say that
>   even in "enlightened" parts of the country, blacks are routinely treated
>   with significantly less respect than whites, and are expected to just shrug
>   it off.

Show me where I said that was not the case.


>   The United States is a great country, greatest the in the world.  While
>   I was lucky not to have served in the armed forces, most of my predecessors
>   have risked their lives at times for this nation of ours.  But the
>   politicos who have run it are much more concerned about the white male
>   even today, than with any other group, and it has been much worse in the
>   past.  

Show me where I said that wasn't the case.


>   It has mostly to do with power, and exercise of power.  Seems Saw,
>   with his suspicion of the powers that be in a small company like Digital,
>   might see that there may well have been a lot of abuse of authority over
>   the years towards groups with no power.  And, lets face it, I can't see
>   how the U.S. government has really done much of significance towards making
>   amends over PAST injustices towards minority peoples.

Show me where I said there wasn't.


>   I currently attend church in a congregation that is about 75% native
>   American, and the government didn't do anything about honoring its own
>   treaties with them until the tribe threatened to file a mass lawsuit
>   against homeowners in a large section of land once taken from the tribe,
>   with a promise of a settlement.  That settlement was over 40 years in coming.
>   And frankly, that is what I think that Big Brother (the federal gov't)
>   treats those without power.  We can go on about the IRS, judicial system,
>   etc.

Okay, excuse me one minute while I shift the load on my back to make room for
this new injustice that I must shoulder and bear the burden of.  As a white
male who wasn't even born forty years ago I now must atone for the sins of my
pale face fathers.  Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!


>   While the concepts imbedded in the U.S.Constitution are the most lofty
>   set of standards for government yet, I think the reality of how individuals
>   can exercise those rights is far from what the document(s) implies.
>   Justice doesn't really exist in America today, and anyone who thinks it
>   does is ... well, never mind.

Well, what do you know.  I think we agree on something.

>   Thank God for men and women who have served this nation in defending the
>   rights of people here and abroad.  Still, there are legitimate reasons to
>   criticize the performance of the powers that be.

Yep.  Amen.

But if you had taken reading comprehension 101 you would have noted the
absolute sarcasm in what I wrote in the note to which you so strongly objected.

You would have realized that someone saying "A white male" has no idea what
oppression because he's a white male is just as ludicrous as someone saying
that a black male is shiftless, lazy and a crook simply because he's a black
male.  That is what I was objecting to.

I don't need to be oppressed to know what oppression is.  I don't need to be
the victim of injustice to know what it is and try to fight it.

And you really underestimate me if you think that I haven't seen a lot of abuse
of government power.  I have.  I see it every day.

It has become very fashionable these days to blame the white male for all of
the problems of this nation.  Perhaps folks should blame the white males who
really do cause the problem, instead of blaming all of us for the problems.


But you know what?  What is really stupid is to try and explain any of this.
I'll just belly up to the bar and assume my share of the blame for something
that someone did before I was even born......

Amen, brother!

>	The point, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that there
>	have been no reports of him, himself, was ever oppressed
>	by the U.S. government.  Claiming it's a belief of the 
>	Nation of Islam was already disapproved.

	Just because he hasn't been (and I don't know he hasn't been)
	discriminated against by the federal government doesn't mean he
	hasn't been discriminated against.  Perhaps the flag symbolizes
	(to him) the U.S. society, rather than the ideals of its founders.

	His claim isn't that showing respect to the flag is against the
	beliefs of the Nation of Islam, but against his religion.  I certainly
	believe any reasonable person who practices any sort of faith will
	go beyond the minimum practices of the body of believers to make his
	own peace with his creator, based on the principles embodied in that
	faith.

	I look at it this way.  I have respect for the U.S. flag.  OTOH,
	I had no respect for the flag of the State of Georgia while I lived
	there -- to me, the history of its adoption in the 50's was a history
	of hatred and intolerance.  I could no more have shown respect to it
	than I could to a swastika.  I can imagine people in other circumstances
	who would have similar feelings to the U.S. flag.

>       BTW I believe it under one of the edicts to being a muslim it says
>    "You shall not worship anything or anyone but God. " ie the flag, the
>    anthem, etc....

That's not what Hakeem said last night on the news.  Besides, standing for the
anthem is respect, not worship.

I stand for the anthem, and I respect all the sacrifice that went into what
that flag symbolizes.  I don't worship it.

Well, I'm sorry if my feelings of patriotism bother all you wonderfully
enlightened people in this file.  I'm sorry if my belief in the inherent good
in this country bothers you too (and please, before you chide me for my
stupidity note that I said "good" and NOT "perfection).

I'm sorry if my belief that disrespect for the men and women who died trying to
make this country a better place is not the way to change things rankles you
all.

I'm sorry if my belief that blaming all white males and denegrating them as
knowing nothing is as bad as blaming all black males for the problems in this
country really is an anathem to you all.


I guess I come from a different generation than my age would belie, given that
my folks were older when I was born.   I support Rauf's RIGHT to protest in
this manner.  I don't agree with how he's doing it but I'd spill my last drop
of blood for his right to do it.  I support the KKK's right to spew their
propaganda too, not that I agree with it any more than I agree with Rauf.

So, I'm sorry if all of that is stupid to you enlightened and new age folks.
I'm sorry if MY right to get angry at the disrespect that is shown the good
men and women of all races and creeds and colors who died to put the stripes on
that flag bothers you all.

I mean, I should try to be more like George I guess, who can laugh at
patriotism, and respect.  I mean, those are worthy things to laugh about.  If
you laugh about them, you'll probably never have to take it seriously and never
have to defend it.  

So, in closing, I apologize to you all that I'm not an new age enlightened man
who's ashamed of being a white male and believing in this country and in trying
to make it better in my own little way (no pun intended).


'Saw


PS  Legit question:  How much of Rauf's millions or the 30-40K that he's losing
    per day is he turning back into the community to improve life for the
    oppressed masses?

    
    	For those who didn't hear what Hakeem Olajuwon had to say, he said.
    That Islamic teachings teach you to respect the rights and laws of
    the country you are currently in.
    
    Ron

> Then obviously you didn't read it in the right frame of mind.
>
  Sorry, perhaps I did.  I frankly read it as an accurate portrayasl of how
  you felt.  I was rather surprised, which is why I thought it as the most
  extreme piece you had ever written.  OTOH, there are LOTS of people who
  feel EXACTLY that way.

> I'm a white male.  According to Chappy's logic, I know nothing of oppression,
> and by extension I'm guilty of every sin perpetrated on every minority within
> this country, mainly because of my White Anglo-Saxon Protestant background.
>
> That's what's stupid.  I'm not denying that there has been racism, THAT would
> be stupid.

  I don't think that you can extend his statements into anything like that
  assumption.  You have to be pretty strong just to twist and bend his words
  into anything that resembles that assumption.

  Moreover, I will go so far as to say that white males probably CANNOT
  understand oppression the way many minorities can.  I think we can recognize
  it when we see it, but can't feel what it does to one's psyche.

> Okay, excuse me one minute while I shift the load on my back to make room for
> this new injustice that I must shoulder and bear the burden of.  As a white
> male who wasn't even born forty years ago I now must atone for the sins of my
> pale face fathers.  Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa!

  No, but why should you expect to benefit from their injustices, either ?
  [Not you particularly, but the general population.]  As an example, one of
  these night-time news shows featured a southern community a few years ago
  whose history had a group of whites driving a group of blacks out of the
  community in the early 1900's.  White families took over their properties
  without any form of payment.  Many of the families today are descendants of
  the earlier white families, and the others who live there bought the property
  from those families.  Should these current people have the right to own
  property via inheritence, when it didn't belong to the estate in the first
  place ?


> But if you had taken reading comprehension 101 you would have noted the
> absolute sarcasm in what I wrote in the note to which you so strongly 
> objected.

  You're right.  I saw nothing in that note that mad it obvious you were
  being sarcastic.  Had I read it in that tone, I would maybe have focused
  less on criticizing you for writing it, and just made a few of the points
  I had made.

> You would have realized that someone saying "A white male" has no idea what
> oppression because he's a white male is just as ludicrous as someone saying
> that a black male is shiftless, lazy and a crook simply because he's a black
> male.  That is what I was objecting to.
> 
> I don't need to be oppressed to know what oppression is.  I don't need to be
> the victim of injustice to know what it is and try to fight it.

  True enough.  White males may have an understanding conceptually of what
  oppression is, and may be very dedicated to its extermination.  OTOH, white
  males in this society are not discriminated against as a group.  They are
  not routinely put down.  They do not grow up with people making them out
  to be inferior because of some characteristic of their group.  They may
  recognize and loathe this, but unless they experience, I don't think they
  can really understand what it does to a person, any more than a person who
  has been married throughout adult life to the same person and whose parents
  did the same can really understand how gut-wrenching a divorce can be.

> It has become very fashionable these days to blame the white male for all of
> the problems of this nation.  Perhaps folks should blame the white males who
> really do cause the problem, instead of blaming all of us for the problems.

  I don't agree, though I think 10-20 years ago that was the case.  Now I think
  the press and populace have started to go back and say, "Those poor white
  males shouldn't be made to bear ANY of the burden in solving the problems
  their forefathers generated.  Those advantages that came to people that
  they inherited, or that they gained because a corrupt system gave some
  educational advantages and denied it to others, shouldn't be looked at as
  their responsibility to fix in any way."

  Maybe what we should do is acknowledge that it was our parents and 
  grandparents who benefitted from racism, and rather than our generation
  bearing the burden, we should just tak their generation, and redistribute
  the money to the elderly of minority groups, thus in part making up for
  the inequality of life.

  [Note the sacrcasm in the above, please.]

  I realize that the flag is a sensitive issue for some people.  Many of
  our parents/grandparents/us fought for the freedoms that the flag MAY be
  a symbol of.  Unfortunately, many of those freedoms were reserved only for
  a ceratin group of people, even though the other groups were required to
  fight as well.

  I don't expect any one person to assume the blame for the ills of society,
  but I don't see this one basketball player as doing anything to go out of
  his way to show disrespect for the flag.  He didn't make public statements
  about how awful this country was, he didn't try to influence anyone else
  to do the same, until he was suspended because some fans (so-called Americans)
  complained because he didn't show respect towards their feelings.  Guess
  what -- it seems to me that those fans are the ones that ought to grow up.

  Perhaps we all ought to love this country and just jay that those injustices
  are part of what we ought to love, that they are part of this country and
  its heritage.  That's the message I get from the Love It Or Leave It folks.
  I suspect if the roles were reversed they would be the first to try to
  overthrow it.  It seems to me that the extreme fringe of the Love It Or Leave
  It group have tried to do just those sorts of things.

    
    
      Amen Mr Rollins Amen.
    
    

>Well, I'm sorry if my feelings of patriotism bother all you wonderfully
>enlightened people in this file.  I'm sorry if my belief in the inherent good
>in this country bothers you too (and please, before you chide me for my
>stupidity note that I said "good" and NOT "perfection).

 I suppose I've been one of the more vocal here, but it doesn't bother me.
 I have been to parades where I was one of the few who put hand of heart as
 the flag passed (not that makes me any great patriot).  I admire you for
 what you do in this regard.
 
>I'm sorry if my belief that disrespect for the men and women who died trying to
>make this country a better place is not the way to change things rankles you
>all.

 And this is where we disagree.  There is nothing in his actions or words that
 would give credence that this man is showing any disrespect AT ALL for people
 who died trying to make this country a better place.  That's what you have
 interpreted his actions to mean, and in my mind, there's no justification for
 that interpretation.

>So, I'm sorry if all of that is stupid to you enlightened and new age folks.
>I'm sorry if MY right to get angry at the disrespect that is shown the good
>men and women of all races and creeds and colors who died to put the stripes on
>that flag bothers you all.

 Nor mine when I suggest that what may symbolize freedom and honor to
 you might be the symbol of something else completely for others.  It certainly
 wouldn't be fair to expect all Germans in the 30's and 40's to have honored
 the Nazi flag, even though they might well have recognized and honored many
 of the GOOD German citizens who had fought to preserve the nation in the
 past.  

>Legit question:  How much of Rauf's millions or the 30-40K that he's losing
>per day is he turning back into the community to improve life for the
>oppressed masses?

 While you prefaced this as legit question, a lot of people come in and make
 their case, and then throw in a question like this to try and undermine the
 character of the person they are assailing, without having any idea of the
 answer.  There is a very sarcastic tone to the question (maybe I've decided
 to play it safe on inferring sarcasm, I don't know).

 Legit answer: I don't know, although most devout Moslem people I know 
 contribute substantially to the community.  From what I am aware of, he has
 been faithful to his beliefs, and I would infer something from that, but I
 doubt anyone here would know the answer (although they might).  Most people
 who contribute for the right reasons don't broadcast the facts to others or
 to the press.

 As I said, it appears to have a sarcastic tone to me; sorry to offend if it
 wasn't meant in that way.  If it is, do you have any reason to think that a
 substantial portion doesn't go back to the community ?  Would a finding that
 it did change your views into the reasonableness of his actions ?

 FWIW, I also think that his views on the flag are wrong, but I also think he
 has done a fairly good job about NOT being confrontational about this, and that
 he HAS been considerate of what other people feel on this issue, and with that
 in mind I think that criticism of him in particular has been COMPLETELY
 unwarranted.

	Rauf does have an out here.  Apparently the Nuggets told him
	he could stay in the lockerroom and then come out after the
	anthem has been played.  He chose to come out and sit through
	it.

	There are alot of irate callers out here (Colorado) phoning
	into the sports talk radio shows.  Some folks have even
	called Jehovah's Witnesses on the carpet on this issue (they
	don't stand during the anthem, they do stand during the pledge
	of allegiance but do not recite the words or put their hands
	over their hearts).

	My mom is a JW.  She taught us their protocol for the anthem
	and pledge.  Mike Heiser will have to help me out here.  From
	what I recall, the reason they don't honor the flag is because
	of a passage in the Bible about not worshiping anything in the
	heavens, on land, or in the sea.  They consider the anthem and
	the pledge to be such worship.  The only entity they are allowed
	to worship is God.  

	Ya'll can probably tell that I'm not a JW.  Once I became a certain
	age, I was given a choice.  My choice was not to stay on that path.
	That's neither here or there.

	The thing that concerns me is the folks who want to boot these
	people out of the country because they won't honor the flag.  I don't
	understand this line of thinking.  Frankly, it scares me.  What has 
	happened to freedom from religious persecution in this country?
	Freedom of speech/expression?  

	Rauf knew the rules.  He could have just made himself scarce during
	the anthem.  My mom does that.  She'll always find an excuse to be
	in the bathroom during the anthem so as not to offend anybody.  
	I believe that Rauf's situation will probably wind up being decided
	in the courts.  

Claybone

>  Sorry, perhaps I did.  I frankly read it as an accurate portrayasl of how
>  you felt.  I was rather surprised, which is why I thought it as the most
>  extreme piece you had ever written.  OTOH, there are LOTS of people who
>  feel EXACTLY that way.

My exact point was that to make vast assumptions about any group of people, in
this case, white males, is as heinous as making vast assumptions about groups
of black males let's say.

Or has the lack of oppression of white males earned them some sort of
oppression factor that they now must endure?



>  I don't think that you can extend his statements into anything like that
>  assumption.  You have to be pretty strong just to twist and bend his words
>  into anything that resembles that assumption.

When someone says "White males know nothing of oppression" then I don't have to
bend anything.  


>  Moreover, I will go so far as to say that white males probably CANNOT
>  understand oppression the way many minorities can.  I think we can recognize
>  it when we see it, but can't feel what it does to one's psyche.

I cannot understand losing a child the way sixteen sets of parents in Scotland
do this morning either, but it still sickens and saddens me.



>  No, but why should you expect to benefit from their injustices, either ?
>  [Not you particularly, but the general population.]  As an example, one of
>  these night-time news shows featured a southern community a few years ago
>  whose history had a group of whites driving a group of blacks out of the
>  community in the early 1900's.  White families took over their properties
>  without any form of payment.  Many of the families today are descendants of
>  the earlier white families, and the others who live there bought the property
>  from those families.  Should these current people have the right to own
>  property via inheritence, when it didn't belong to the estate in the first
>  place ?

I can't fix that.  Neither should I be denegrated for it.  I can attempt to
make the world a better place by taking such actions as I think fit to make the
world more liveable for all people, not just white males.


>  True enough.  White males may have an understanding conceptually of what
>  oppression is, and may be very dedicated to its extermination.  OTOH, white
>  males in this society are not discriminated against as a group.  They are
>  not routinely put down.  They do not grow up with people making them out
>  to be inferior because of some characteristic of their group.  They may
>  recognize and loathe this, but unless they experience, I don't think they
>  can really understand what it does to a person, any more than a person who
>  has been married throughout adult life to the same person and whose parents
>  did the same can really understand how gut-wrenching a divorce can be.

Some of us understand all too well.  There are other groupings in society based
on things aside from just race.  Some of the slings that you get hit with as a
kid leaves scars that never quite heal and you have to deal with always.
Please note, before you jump into my shit with both feet that I'm not equating
this with constant every day oppression, but it does prove false the claim in
here that the white male knows nothing of oppression and routine put-downs.


>  I don't agree, though I think 10-20 years ago that was the case.  Now I think
>  the press and populace have started to go back and say, "Those poor white
>  males shouldn't be made to bear ANY of the burden in solving the problems
>  their forefathers generated.  Those advantages that came to people that
>  they inherited, or that they gained because a corrupt system gave some
>  educational advantages and denied it to others, shouldn't be looked at as
>  their responsibility to fix in any way."

I disagree here.  All of the rhetoric today is aimed at the white male.  If
there is any ill in society that the white male is not guilty of causing, I've
yet to hear it.

They're teaching a course on white racism at UConn next semester.  Not racism,
but white racism.  Guess if they taught a course on racism they'd have to deal
with the rhetoric of Louis Farrakhan, and I think that's too volatile, so I
guess they're just going to deal with the EASY parts of racism, the easily
identified transgressions of causcasian males.


>  Maybe what we should do is acknowledge that it was our parents and 
>  grandparents who benefitted from racism, and rather than our generation
>  bearing the burden, we should just tak their generation, and redistribute
>  the money to the elderly of minority groups, thus in part making up for
>  the inequality of life.

Well, I don't know how my parents benefitted from it.  My dad turns 79 today
and he had to work for every penny he ever made.  I'm sure he wasn't stepping
on the heads of any minorities to climb the ladder.  It was tough enough just
putting food on the table.


>  I don't expect any one person to assume the blame for the ills of society,
>  but I don't see this one basketball player as doing anything to go out of
>  his way to show disrespect for the flag.  He didn't make public statements
>  about how awful this country was, he didn't try to influence anyone else
>  to do the same, until he was suspended because some fans (so-called Americans)
>  complained because he didn't show respect towards their feelings.  Guess
>  what -- it seems to me that those fans are the ones that ought to grow up.

Well, if Rauf is so concerned about this oppressive country we live in, I'd
like to know what he's doing CONSTRUCTIVELY to change it.  Some of us bad white
males are at least TRYING.   And we're not disrepecting entire groups of people
to do it either.



>  Perhaps we all ought to love this country and just jay that those injustices
>  are part of what we ought to love, that they are part of this country and
>  its heritage.  That's the message I get from the Love It Or Leave It folks.
>  I suspect if the roles were reversed they would be the first to try to
>  overthrow it.  It seems to me that the extreme fringe of the Love It Or Leave
>  It group have tried to do just those sorts of things.

It's a reality in any group that each and every thing is unique.  That
uniqueness means differences, and unfortunately there's always going to be some
bozo that denegrates someone on the basis of that difference.  

Don't confuse the "love it or leave it" folks with any extreme part.  That's as
bad as making sweeping generalizations about racial groups.

I've lived in another country.  Believe me when I say it that there's lots of
worse places to live than here.  We're not perfect, but at least some of us
try. 

    You know, I think I could derive a fair amount of perverse pleasure 
    from watching two fat cats in the NBA and Mahmoud throwing millions
    around in court to decide this "issue".  I'll bet George could fill
    up another disk space's worth of pointless and inaccurate legal 
    analysis.  Here's hoping there's no compromise.
    
    It really is quite stupid when you consider all the real injustices
    present in this country.  I personally think it's political, not
    religious, but even if it is the guy's personal religious belief,
    imo it is still stupid.  Without citing any specific religion 
    and therefore violating SPROTS' Golden Rule (not "thou shalt abuse 
    others as you would abuse thineself", that other one), some 
    religious beliefs _are_ stupid.  Not illegal, just plain dumb.
    
    glenn
     

> As I said, it appears to have a sarcastic tone to me; sorry to offend if it
> wasn't meant in that way.  If it is, do you have any reason to think that a
> substantial portion doesn't go back to the community ?  Would a finding that
> it did change your views into the reasonableness of his actions ?

No, it was a legit question seeking to have some light shed on an angle that
hasn't been mentioned.

In my opinion, if he's not actively doing something with his money to try and
improve what he's protesting by being disrespectful (IMO, of course) then I
don't hold much respect for him.  If he is actively involved, then more power
to him, and I'm listening....


> FWIW, I also think that his views on the flag are wrong, but I also think he
> has done a fairly good job about NOT being confrontational about this, and that
> he HAS been considerate of what other people feel on this issue, and with that
> in mind I think that criticism of him in particular has been COMPLETELY
> unwarranted.

Well, actually, despite going around and around on this the bottom line, no
matter how any of us feel, is that he's disobeying a clause in his contract.

I suppose if I brought a gun into the office, despite my being able to make a
case that it is my Second Ammendment right, it'd still be wrong, since they're
not allowed here....

Ultimately, that's what this all boils down to.


'Saw

           <<< Note 92.254 by CAM::WAY "There's the devil to pay!" >>>

  Frank,

  Before you throw yourself on your sword keep in mind the point behind
my sarcasm.

  You yourself have said that you would fight for Rauf's right to protest.
That's all anyone here is saying. Remember, all those patriots who died during
the Revolutionary war would probably be far more outraged at the idea of being
forced to make pledges or slute the flag of our large central government then
they would have been at those who choose to protest that government. 

  The Declaration of Independence that started that war made it clear that no
man should ever be forced to worship or respect any government, rather a
government was only valid if it worshiped and respected the "the unalien
rights" of the individual. 

  Yes people have fought and died in this countries wars but it may well be
that many of them fought for the ideals of freedom for which this country
stands and not for it's identity or it's icons such as the flag and the
national anthem.

  Anyone who desecrates the flag is disgusting.
  Anyone who would make a law prohibiting such protest is dangerous.

  George

> Well, actually, despite going around and around on this the bottom line, no
> matter how any of us feel, is that he's disobeying a clause in his contract.

  Yeah, but it MAY not be a legal clause.  While some people say that he has
  the right to leave the country and make good money elsewhere, I would bet
  that if taken to court it wouldn't be hard to prove that the NBA would be 
  violating labor laws, because there is no other place he can go in the U.S.
  and do what he is doing to earn money.  And if the clause were to be decided
  to be illegal, it would be as if it weren't written into the contract in the
  first place.

  Having said that, the news this morning suggests a VERY early compromise
  to this issue, on Rauf's part.  Apparently he has heard a lot of criticism
  from the Islamic community on this, how it is damaging the public's
  impression of the faith, and causing him to reconsider standing during
  the anthem.  At least, that's the word from some PR guy.  He says he can't
  agree to do so whole-heartedly, but he doesn't want anyone viewing his actions
  as a negative to be applied to belief in Islam.

  NOw I draw certain inferences from that.  They may not be accurate, but ...

  In this country the 1st amendment gives us the right not only to decide what
religion we want to follow but it gives us the right to decide what that
religion means. 

  Just because people of other religions haven't chosen to protest against our
central government that doesn't mean someone else can't hold such a protest as
part of their belief. 

  Again, that was one of the most important things that they were fighting for
during the Revolutionary war. 

>>         I'm not saying that I approve of what Mahmoud is doing. But I do
>>    think its his right as an American Citizen to do what he wants under
>>    the rights of Free Speech and choice.
>    
>    Freedom of Speech isn't free if it infringes on the rights of others.

     Most "freedoms" aren't free.  This isn't infringing on anyone else's
     rights (perhaps their sensibilities).

    
    	Well glenn, I think the JW's are _wrong_ about this but I
    	would not tell my mom her beliefs are stupid.
    
    Claybone  

    >> The Black Muslims (i.e., Farrakhan) are much more hateful, 
    >> intolerant, and racist.  
    
        That's about enough of that.

>    It's sort of like comparing Christianity with the Branch Davidians. 
>    They're apples and oranges.  Chris Jackson is the cultist.
>    
>    Mike

     Or like comparing Christianity with some of these right-to-life
     extremist groups, or some of these independent evangelizing groups.
     Or any number of other extremist groups, not associated with any
     religion (animal rights, etc).  They seem extreme if your not one
     of 'em, very cultish, but seem quite reasonable if you are one of 'em.

     Suggesting Rauf is a cultist because of this one example is no more
     reasonable than suggesting some of the people in here are cultists,
     Mike.  Perhaps even less reasonable.

>    ... The Arabic Islam isn't quite the same as the Black Islam.  The
>    Black Muslims (i.e., Farrakhan) are much more hateful, intolerant, and
>    racist.  

So the Arabic Muslims are hateful, intolerant and racist, too, just not
as much?

According to ESPN Abdul-Rauf is not a member of the Black Muslims. 

The stand up clause was not a part of this or any previous collective
bargaining. It was something the owners put in the rules by theyselves.

And put me down as on the side of the firsted amendment. I support
Abdul-Rauf's right to make a complete idiot of hisself. 

TTom

>    experiences.  All the JW's prove here is the fact that many cults take 
>    verses out of context to differentiate themselves from orthodox
>    beliefs.

So now the Jehovah Witnesses are a cult?

TTom

    
    	They don't see it that way.  They consider it worship.  I don't
    	agree with them.  I can live with it.
    
    Claybone

    
          Raouf's stance aside, which I equate with burning the
         flag in that you may think you're making a political state-
         ment but you're really just being a pain in the butt. Is
         there a reason why we play the national anthem before every
         ball game? They don't play it before concerts or shows, why
         ball games? 

>    	Well glenn, I think the JW's are _wrong_ about this but I
>    	would not tell my mom her beliefs are stupid.
    
    I didn't say they were, but I did say that about Rauf's comments,
    if they were indeed accurately reported...
    
    glenn
    

>    ... Remember, the
>    context of those words of religious freedom were written by a bunch of 
>    men who were both Deists and Christians looking to escape the tyranny
>    of Catholicism.

The hat trick: the racism of Islams, the cult of JW and the tyranny of
Catholicism. Unbelievable!~

And I din't know ol' King George was a Catholic.

TTom

>    George there would be a lot of things they wouldn't like about today. 
>    They also wouldn't like having their comments on religious freedom
>    taken out of context to the point where anything goes.  Remember, the
>    context of those words of religious freedom were written by a bunch of 
>    men who were both Deists and Christians looking to escape the tyranny
>    of Catholicism.

     They were largely deists, with a smaller number of some Christian faith,
     and it was hardly Catholicism as the dominant religion that they were
     worried about.  Catholicism was hardly an influential religion in the
     American colonies, and Catholics were among the more persecuted minorities 
     around at the time of the writing of the founding documents.  Must have
     been some of those good anti-cultists doing it, I bet.

    
      And it's way out of the purview of this conference.

>  <<< Note 92.282 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "The engineer formerly known as Roland" >>>
>             -< This whole discussion is cybersnooze-inducing... >-

   Glad this is proving to be of some little benefit, then.

   Personally, that's why I appreciate the figure skating discussion,
   especially following those nights which my wife is a little restless.

	This whole string stanks of Political Correctness.  And to
	me that stench (the PC one) is more annoying than the
	air around the Homestead Steel Works in the 1960's.



	billl

      Go Nuggets!
    
      Oh sorry, wrong note;-)
    
      Tim

WOW.

I spend my day tracking down an ACCVIO and I come back and there's like four
billion notes on this.


To answer Tommy's legit question, the National Anthem at sporting events
starting during WWII.  My dad, The Ancient One, confirmed this for me on the
telephone a few minutes ago.

I think we've just about beat this one into submission, fellas.  Rick and I
sent some mail back and forth, found some interesting commonalities in our
opinions, and let it go at that.

I suggest you all do the same....


I heard someone mention that dirty word "Owners" in here before.  Maybe we can
bash them for a while.

'Saw

    
    Rauf has just agreed to stand with his teammates during the anthem.
    
    Marc
    

	Hey, Marc, don't be comming in here and try and get
	this train back on track!



	billl

	From the moment this became an issue, Rauf was in a difficult position.
	If he caves in and stands, it looks like he compromised his principles.
	If he doesn't, he either goes to court, plays elsewhere, or gives up
	the game.
	
	Kevin

    
    
    It would be my guess that his Muslem brothers gave him a sign.

    Maybe his karma ran over his dogma.

From all indications that I've heard, Rauf has been doing this
all season, at least.  He's tried to stay off the court, and do
this in a quiet manner.

The uproar was kicked off by a couple of calls to Denver radio
stations in the past week or so, from what I've heard.  Agree or
disagree, but I would think that Rauf has shown the most conviction
of all involved in this case.  The NBA's actions seemed to change
based on public opinion more than anything else.

Mike

     It's a NBA rule that all players, coaches, and bench personnel
    stand in a dignified and orderly manner during the playing of
    both the American and Canadian national anthems. Did not rauf
    sign a NBA contract? Does that not mean he has to abide by
    their rules? Hey rauf, stand up and stop your whining. Aren't
    you making enough money from the system that you don't respect
    and claim is oppressing? wuss. imo
    
    					Lil Ed

.218 (TEFKAR) hit it on the head, before the discussion even took place:

> A guy who can nail threes like he can could make plenty of money in Europe.

Here, of course, the curious custom of playing the national anthem before
every sporting event does not exist, so there would be no problems.

This discussion is an example of a set of attitudes that Europeans find
so incomprehensible about Americans.  All this fuss and bother about a
mere symbolic act!

My own take, FWIW, observing from afar:

1. The NBA wouldn't stand a prayer (oops) of enforcing the contractual
   clause requiring standing for the anthem, once it was demonstrated
   that they had tolerated its violation for so long a time.

2. The only villains in this are the busybodies who decided it was worth
   calling the radio stations and raising hell.  In general, much of the
   evil in the world is perpetrated by people who spend too much of their
   time worrying about what other people do.

3. I thought everybody was missing the point here, until TTom came in
   with .272, acknowledging Rauf's inalienable right to make a damfool
   of himself.

4. A man who is willing to give up $40,000 a day for his beliefs deserves
   our respect.  That said, I'm inclined to think that these beliefs are
   the consequence of a young man engaging in intellection beyond his
   capacity to do so.

5. I don't doubt that his Islamic brethren were as interested in his
   backing off as anyone else, with the likely exception of Louis
   Farrakhan, who perhaps hadn't seen his name in the news since his
   return from the Grand Tour of Terrorist Capitals.

6. The whole discussion of white males as oppressors was entirely and
   completely beside the point.

7. In general, the level of the discussion was commendably high.  Perhaps
   we do better LDUCs when we hold them outside the Junk Note.

Steve

      Contracts are a farce in pro-sports anyway.
    
      Tim

Supposedly, at least according to the Denver Post, the Nuggets are
shopping around both Abdul-Rauf and Jalen Rose.

The word is that Denver wants to swap Abdul-Rauf for Sarunas
Marciulionis, currenlty with Sacramento.

Rose is rumored to be going to the Pacers for Ricky Pierce and Mark
Jackson, which seems a bit much to be giving up for the guy, IMHO.

TTom

To paraphrase, tell it to Sportszone and the Denver Post...

Rauf was traded to the Kings.  Saw it on ESPN lasted night.

    And Rose and Reggie Williams went to the Pacers for Jackson and Ricky
    Pierce and a swap of first round picks.

    Well before the end of his career I'd like to see my main Abdul-Rauf in
    a different venue.  He is one of the most talented basketball players
    in history and capable of dominating games but admittedly erratic in
    Denver.
    
    Now I can root for the Kings and Len St.Jean.

>Rauf was traded to the Kings.  Saw it on ESPN lasted night.

To Sacramento for Marciulionis and a second round pick, #37.

>    And Rose and Reggie Williams went to the Pacers for Jackson and Ricky
>    Pierce and a swap of first round picks.

The Nuggets get Indiana's #23 and the Pacers get Denver's #10.

And yeah, billte, I like your main,too. I wonder what effect this has on
Bobby Hurley who's already losing minutes.

Stay tuned.

TTom

    ain't no flies on TTom...
    plenty of flies on the nuggets...I don't get it: Rauf for oft injured
    sarunas...Then Rose & Williams for a old jackson and an older pierce
    AND they swap draft picks.  I sure hope the nuggets are not done
    whealin and dealin...
    

I'd be interested in knowing more about the various contracts.

On the surface, this looks like a combination of "why" and "so what". 

Could this be leading to a wholesale cleaing with a bunch of salary cap
money a la Miami and the Knicks?

Marciulionis is definitely damaged goods. Jackson might have a couple
more years in 'im but that aint saying all that much. 

TTom

    -2
    nate may not be refusing to play but I hear that Westphal is!!!
    

>The word is that Denver wants to swap Abdul-Rauf for Sarunas
>Marciulionis, currenlty with Sacramento.

>Rose is rumored to be going to the Pacers for Ricky Pierce and Mark
>Jackson, which seems a bit much to be giving up for the guy, IMHO.

C'mon MikeH, as rumors go, these were about as close to reality
as you're going to get.

>    I don't know anyone, anywhere, even in rotis leagues, that would trade
>    Jalen Rose for Ricky Pierce and Mark Jackson.

My point is, the principles in the deal were named and turned out to be
correct.  The balancing *parts* were just that.

      Well I figured Rose or Rauf would go somewhere, but not both.  I
    think the Jackson/Pierce deal stinks.  Pierce is a has been and the
    nuggets already have Dale Ellis, then you trade the #1 picks?  The
    Pacers made out in this deal.
    
      As to the other guy from Sacramento, I only have seen him play once
    and he seemed average at best.  Rauf is a tough loss since he was their
    big shooter.
    
      I hope it works out for the nuggs and puts egg on my face, but with
    bickerstaff staying as coach/gm/pres, I think the nuggs will miss the
    playoffs again.
    
      Mutumbo will probably leave since he wants $12mil/yr, which he aint
    worth and the nuggs won't give it to him, or at least that was stated
    in the paper a few weeks back. 
    
      The nuggs gotta have a good center though, perferred one with decent
    offense.
    
      Tim

Nuggets should hire John Thompson for their coach......

won't happen. Now if'n Mutombo stayed and Zo came over, maybe...

    
    	This looks like a steal for the Pacers to me. Reggie Williams
    isn't a Reggie Miller, but can pick up some of the scoring punch if
    Miller leaves Indiana. Jalen Rose is an adequate backup PG, who
    could occasionly start. It leaves Indiana with a hole at PG.
    	Ricky Pierce is 35-36 yrs old, while Jackson is about 31. The key
    will be the #10 pick and who Indiana selects. Look for them to take
    Steve Nash the PG from Stanford(?), with the #10.
    
    Ron

    I thought the pacers had a PG in Travis Best? 

	Was this some kind of salary cap dump so that Denver could free
	up money to re-sign Dikembe?

	If not, then this mkaes little sense from the Nuggets point of 
	view ... they lose a young point guard with good size (Rose),
	a young shooter (Rauf) and a very good draft pick (#10) ...

	And they get *much* older, and not significantly better ...
	Marcialonis (sp) has heart, but has had way too many injuries,
	Pierce is old, Jackson doesn't play defense and the draft
	pick won't be that great ...

	Vinny

    I agree with the analyses in here.  The Pacers made out like bandits,
    and the Nuggets don't seem to have a clue.  Larry Brown said often at
    the end of the year that he needed to find more time for Best, and he
    really likes Haywood Workman.  I predict they make Rose into a small
    forward to back up the inconsistent Derrick McKey.  The Pacers will in
    all likelihood keep reggie Miller happy, and sign one of their two free
    agent Davises.  Then they will get the best big guy available with the
    #10 pick.
    
    NAZZ

    If they did this to free money under the cap to sign Dikembe then they
    need to reread the Cap Rules...  Id have to say they have there eye on
    someone BIG and need some $$$ in the Free Agent Market ...
    
    								MaB

      Bickerstaff wanted vets.  Cryin' out loud, he shouldn't go for 
    "ready for pasture" players though!
    
      Rose has had potential, but really was overrated coming from the fab
    5.  Small forward huh?  Jalen is not a "true" point guard, but is good
    at backing in the smaller PG's into the paint and doing short jumpers.
    
    
      The biggest bitch is the draft pick swap..dumb Dumb DUMB!
    
      Bernie was building a heck of a team 3-4 years ago, but is now on the
    verge of needing his head checked!
    
      The nuggets still need a PG!
    
      Tim
      

    Interesting thought... 
    
    So far the best of the fab 5 is Juwan Howard.  Maybe they are after
    him?  I don't think he'll succeed at center though.  Maybe they
    are hoping that Mourning might be available?  Bickerstaff is
    usually shrewd at making moves...
    

      Who were the Fab 5?  Howard, Rose, Webber, ?, ?
    
    Tim

    and Ray Jackson?

    
    Bobby "Bingo" Smith