Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    
    
       Also John Cougar Mellenhead will be there singing " I was born in a 
    small town, learn to shoot baskets in a small town, I owna resturant in
    a small town....
    
         They are expecting a laser show and lights and everything oooohhh
    I'm so excited....
    
    
    
    Chappy

    Ainge has a game here on Friday night.  He might be able to make it.
    
    Is anyone recording this?  I'd be willing to buy a copy.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    And I'd be willing to borrow Heiser's copy.  8^)

�    Is anyone recording this?  I'd be willing to buy a copy.
    
    This could be construed as copywrite infringement.

    Okay, I have Magic's ceremony on tape and would be willing to work out
    a trade.

    Isn't SCA showing this tribute in its entirety at some point ( live or
    delayed)?
    

    
    don't think so...
    
    
    "any broadcast, rebroadcast of the accounts, descriptions, or <mumble>
    without the permission of the Boston Celtics or the NBA  is stricly
    forbidden..."
    
    However, maybe "I'll trade for it" is a better way to phrase it?
    
    I remain,
    NOT a SLOF-House Lawyer in real life!
    Kev
    

    Yabbut,
    That's just important legalese mumbojumbo for those who evilly
    INTEND to sell fer a profit. If'n I or others want to tape and copy,
    no harm, no foul.
    
    MikeL
    

Yeah.

You're allowed to tape anything that comes into your house as long as it
is for your own use....


'Saw

Saw -

I don't know, I tried that with the Avon Lady once, and she didn't
like it at all - but the FCC didn't get involved.

Jd

She was probably just scared of your awesome lats, JD.....

For the members of the Larry Bird Jihad:

In honor of the Celtics retiring Lawwy Biwd's number tonight, Boston
Magazine (or, Beantown Yuppie Illustrated), pulbished a commemorative
color booklet that includes photos and numbers from his 10 bested 
games, plenty of stats and more action and behind-the-scenes
pictures (Larry on da commode is one, I hear...).  

The magazine-sized softcover is $7.95, with a share going to the
Larry Bird SNight Charities and the Sports Museum of New York (!!!).

To order, call 1-800-488-BIRD, or write:

       Boston Magazine
       300 Massachusetts Ave.
       Boston, MA  02115



JD

    
    You can also buy the Boston Globe fer $.35 and git the 24 page spread
    wif pictures also. Of course the proceeds go to the pinko Globe,
    no charities.
    
    

    watched it
    
    taped it
    
    enjoyed it
    
    wow!
    
    I remain,
    affected by the theatrics!
    Kev
    

    Oh yeah,  If you cain't get enuf,
    
    double eue e e eye is broadcasting a 3 hour Larry tribute on AM.
    
    I remain
    (taping it too)
    Kev
    

    Helluva good show, although the laser show near the end was a bit
    too Hollywood for me.  The 2.5 hours brought back an awful lot of good
    memories.  Gave me a chance to tell the kids how great Tiny, Max and
    Cowens were.  As Magic said, "the NBA just isn't as exciting without he
    and Bird."
    
    For those that didn't see it, there were highlights throughout the
    course of the night.  Bird's family was introduced first.  Next came
    most of the old-timers (except for Russell, Sam Jones and Cousy).  Then
    each of the championship teams were introduced, with accompanying
    highlights and speeches given by a couple of guys from each of the
    championship teams.  Max (stole the show), Tiny and Fitch were first.  
    Quinn Buckner, M.L Carr and Gerald Henderson spoke for the '84 bunch.  
    And DJ, K.C. and Walton (spoke too much when he could finally spit out 
    what he was trying to say) from '86.  Most of the guys from each team 
    were present.
    
    The highlight of course was Magic.  He and Bird swapped stories as well
    as jersies from about 20 minutes.  Magic had a Celtics t-shirt under
    his Lakers warmups.  Glad I taped it.  It'll be nice to look at about
    20 years from now.
    
    					Steve

    How come there was never a mention of Larry's first daugther? 
    She must be about 16 now...
    
    REK

    He doesn't communicate with her...His biggest regret in life according
    to him.

    
    
        Wow what a show.Highlight of the night had to be when Magic
    unbuttoned his Lakers Warmup and he had a Celtic shirt on.
    
         The Wife was bawling when Magic started getting sentimental
    for those of you who missed it. Its a must see.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    Yabbut I dunno, the part with Chief and Kevin asking about Larry's
    "ballet like moves" and his speed (NOT!) as the warm up to the
    "video" was pretty good too!
    
    I kept hoping that Magic and Larry would have "challenged" each other
    to a quick game of 21 or something but I knew the networks would't
    allow it.  Couldda been fun though.
    
    I remain,
    wondering what the laser show looked like in person
    Kev
    

    Magic and Max stole the show IMO. Loved it when Magic had the Celtics
    T shirt on underneath the Laker warmup. Funniest part was when Magic
    and Larry exchanged Celtic and Laker jerseys. Bird was priceless as
    he feigned disgust, winked to the crowd and faked a motion to
    throw the Laker jersey away over his shoulder.  
    And man can Walton yak yak yak.  Get to the point Bill!!
    
    MikeL
    

    
    	I don't know....I have alot of mixed feelings about the whole
    thing.  It seems to me that quite a few of the people that were
    there had an axe to burry.  You would have thought they would have
    been more like Magic.  I didn't realize that Bird was such a ball
    hog or was that demanding to get the ball.  Made me think of Jordan
    and how I feel about him.  There were also quite afew mistakes made
    throughout the show also.  First off one of his brothers names were
    forgotten.  Then the deal about Bobby Ore...I thought they were 
    waiting for him to walk onto the stage.  There was something else too
    but I can't remember.  At leasest Costas didn't stick his head
    inbetween Bird and everyone who presented him with something...ie-
    superbowl presentation.
    
    	I guess it all boils down to not watching the Celtics that much
    and the only thing that really sticks out in my mind about what he
    did was the big steal and feed to Johnson in game 5.
    
    
    		Hal

Interesting answer for people who may have been wondering....

So howcome Ch. 4
	   Ch. 5
	   Ch. 7
			or the Providence stations


	or the New Hampshire Stations

didn't have their own tributes to Larry?

				Doesn't that seem odd?

well,

::Sports investigative reporter (me!) has found the reason why 
they didn't!

	Here's the skinny;

remember that little assortment of words, "without the express permission of
the Boston Celitics, the NBA, blah, blah, blah...."?

Well, every single nanosecond of Larry's performance is jointly owned by 
the Celtics and the NBA and anybody who wants to do a special has to pay 
beaucoup royalty to both orgainzations and from what I heard, it was just
too expensive.  I also imaging that WFXT-25 being owned by the Celtic's may 
have also been a contributing factor.  They didn't want a "major" station
competing against them.

So there ya are....

Even if you weren't curious, ya get the poop!

I remain,
yer Rona of da lockerroom!
Kev

Didn't see a nanosecond of this show. Had a friend call me when it
was over so that I knew the Simpsons were on. Just to make sure I then
taped the next 45 minutes and ran the tape backwards to make sure
I did not see any part of the previous program.
Skipped SportsCenter and every newscast last night; will
probably skip all the local newscasts until Saturday evening for good
measure, maybe until Sunday or Monday.

I say good riddance.

Did watch some basketball last night. A friend came over and we watched
the second half of game 6 of the 1985 NBA Championship. Was kind of nice
to watch the Lakers celebrating in Boston Garden.

The Crazy Met

But for the really important question, when they brought out the 81 team
they were playing a Stevie Wonder song that I can't remember the name of it
and it's killin' me SOS!!!!

I went estatic when Magic talked about Larry's personal highlight show for
him. When I met Larry at the Picadilly in Westboro many years ago that was
the one game that I talked to him about. I told him it was the greatest
individual performance I had ever seen and he better do it again...

;^)

    
    Glad to see someone who doesn't hold a grudge 8^)
    I guess you won't be signing up for the Larry channel then??
    
    As far as the ball-hogging comments, I loved it becuase it was just
    his teammates giving him s**t.  Of course it wasn't true and they knew
    it.  All the talk about the personal experiences and all the joking
    made it very enjoyable.   
    
    It's hard to believe Walton was in law school and actually makes a 
    living as an announcer.
    
    "B.B.B.Butt yer ....... honor"
    
    		Bob Cohen

	To bad The Doctor wasn't there.  I remember the first time the 
Celtics played the Sixers in Larry's rookie year.  There was a period during 
that first game when he and Doc just kept going back in forth showcasing 
some incredible moves.  The players on both teams just stood back and 
watched.  That's when I knew he was going to be something special.  But I 
still think that whole show last night (Gavitt *had* to be the mastermind 
behind it) was a little hokey.                                    

				/Don

    TCM, I can't believe you wouldn't even enjoy a fond farewell to one of
    the game's best.  I even taped the Magic ceremony out of respect!

    Light show was mostly annoying.
    
    Costas was very good - kept things moving as much as possible,
    stayed out of the way when he should have, did not impose himself
    on the ceremony.
    
    Whole thing was a bit too long, but extremely well done.  All the
    videos were excellent.  Good to see Max, Tiny, Wick Wobey, Gerald
    (the first Celtic I ever met, standing in the back of the room on 
    the day of the NBA draft in 1980 - Fitch had just signed him as a
    free agent, cllling him the equivalent of a #1 draft choice, and
    was going to introduce him to the crowd) and all the rest.
    
    I missed seeing Wayne Kreklow, Terry Duerod, and Carlos Clark, tho.
    
    NAZZ

Mike,

Let me try to explain.

Bird was one of the games best, easily in the top 5 or 10 who
ever played the game, no argument from me on this; I am pretty sure
that I never argued otherwise. 

However, I cannot remember any other case where a players number was
retired with so much hoopla. Disliking the Celtics to begin with and then 
having to hear about this gaudy affair for at least a month, well it 
begins to grate on the nerves. There is no question that if I was not
living in the Boston area that I would have not minded at all seeing
whatever little clip SportsCenter decided to show. Remember Magic's ceremony
was at halftime of a game. A halftime ceremony or a pregame ceremony is
the appropriate way to do this.

The Crazy Met

    TCM, I guess you don't remember Kareem's and Erving's farewell tours.
    
    I can't believe that someone sporting that p-name didn't at least watch
    the ceremony.

    
       I *like* the Celtics and Larry Bird and I didn't watch or tape
      the damn thing. Two and a half hours is too much of an invest-
      ment for me. If they could have scaled it down to say 15 minutes,
      I definitely would've watched but two and half hours of anecdotes
      and highlights might be enough to give me an aneurism.

 Not really Tommy or TCM for that matter. While the show was abit long and
 NBA marketing at it's finest it was definately what the Jihad and Larry
 deserved. Players as great as Larry and Magic deserve more than 15 minutes.
 Also it was nice to see them bring back the other players to bask in the
 limelight one more time. Like Slash said it was hokey at times but the
 overall sum of the parts was great and worth the time indulged....

 mike

    
    >> I can't believe that someone sporting that p-name didn't 
    >> at least watch the ceremony.
    
       According to my sources, TCM watched the first five minutes or
       so, but got so teared up that he changed the channel for fear that
       he might have an emotional break down.

    Yawn... next unseen...

barf!

The Crazy Met

    re .38?  Was that to me or the other notes I hit a next unseen for?

More a generic statement about the whole sordid affair and lovefest

The Crazy Met

    People like Ainge, Barkley, Jordan, and Erving should've been there but
    I'm sure they couldn't accomodate everyone's schedule.

    
     Jordan maybe, but Barkley? �Porque?

    The most prominent Dream Team teammate to Sir Larry.

	Bird scored 21,791 points in his career, 11th on the all-time scoring
list. He finished his career averaging 24.3 points, 10 rebounds and 6.3
assists per game. 

    Actually, Barkley was one of the long-distance speaker via video and
    had this to say.  "I'm glad you were born in my lifetime so I can tell
    my kids I played against such a great player.  If it wasn't for you and
    Magic Johnson, the NBA wouldn't be where it is today...and I wouldn't
    be making all this money."

    good ole Charles!

    
     re .47
    
     You would have said the same thing if he had farted.
    

    
    Couldn't think of a better place for a p-name change.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

I might be way off base, but I think one of the reasons they had such
a big hoopla affair was because Larry didn't have the opportunity of
a farewell tour.

JMHO,
'Saw

    LB DIDN'T want a "farewell tour"... BTW a great article about
    his ONLY blood daugther in yesterdays Worcester T & G....
    LB will never win the Father of the year award....
    
    REK

    
    	I'm sure there is lots more behind that than what is said in the
    paper.  I'm also sure his ex-wiff is such a nice person to get along
    with and that there was no mental abuse done to his daughter either.
    
    
    	One who knows.....

    I thought they were retiring Larry's Celtic jersey, not his Dream Team
    jersey.
    
    Julius must have been busy getting inducted in the HOF...
    

    
    
    	Well, I don't bleed green, but I managed to watch the whole show
    on a local TV replay on Saturday and I must say that it was pretty 
    good.
    
    	The highlights were great along with some lowlights too.  Only
    highlights missing that I wanted to see were from the 60 point night
    in Atlanta.
    
    	It was also fun to hear the stories, but I still say the O'Korn
    story ranks up there with the best.
    
    	I also thought the piece with Magic was well worth the price.
    Both heaped praise upon each other which is good to see.  
    
    	Only one missing either from video clip or live, was Dr. J IMO.
    Other than that, it was a fitting end to a player that deserved it.
    
    	It was also good to see how warm all the fans were to Magic.  
    
    	I'll see all you folks in 5 years when they get inducted here
    in Springfield!  Give me a call in 5 years and maybe I'll let you
    shack up at my house..  Seriously though, that will be one induction
    ceremony that I won't miss.. (I blew it by not attending when the
    Pistol was inducted, but I've learned my lesson)
    
    
    bill..g.
    

Article 7159 of clari.sports.basketball:
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Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Subject: Larry Bird says goodbye
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 93 22:07:24 PST

	BOSTON (UPI) -- Larry Bird took the floor for one more thunderous
ovation Thursday night before his legendary No. 33 jersey took its
rightful place among the other Celtic greats in the rafters of Boston
Garden.
	Before a sellout crowd that included NBA Commissioner David Stern,
Magic Johnson, and members of Celtics teams past and present, Bird said
an emotional goodbye to the Boston fans who worshipped his every on-
court move.
	``Thirteen years ago, I drove to Boston and didn't have any idea of
what I was getting involved with,'' Bird told the crowd. ``I am very
proud to have played for the Boston Celtics. I was taught to win and not
just games, but championships. Tonight I leave the game I love. I played
through pain. I did my very best to please every one of you. Now that my
career is over, I can honestly say I had a blast.''
	During his legendary 13-year career with the Celtics from 1979 to
1992, the French Lick, Ind., native led the Celtics to three NBA
championships. He was named the league's MVP three times (1984, 1985 and
1986), MVP of the NBA finals twice (1984 and 1986) and once MVP of the
All-Star Game (1982). He announced his retirement last August after
winning the basketball gold medal with the United States team in
Barcelona.
	He was a nine-time, first-team All-Star and made the all-NBA first
team 11 times. He finished his illustrious career 11th in league scoring
history with 21,791 points, was eighth in steals, fourth in free-throw
percentage, fourth in 3-pointers made, and 10th in field goals made.
	Bird's No. 33 was retired along with former teammate Dennis Johnson's
No. 3, as they became the 17th and 18th members of the Celtics to be so
honored. Bird also received his Olympic ring alongside Johnson, his
longtime friend, opponent and teammate in Barcelona where Bird played
his final game.
	Celtics President Red Auerbach, who drafted Bird out of Indiana State
in 1988, called Bird, ``the greatest self-motivated athlete I ever saw.''
Later he added, ``the only regret I ever had was I never coached Larry
Bird.''
	Johnson, wearing a Celtics T-shirt, praised Bird as ``the greatest
and most feared player I ever faced. If there was any time left on the
clock he would find a way to win.''
	Before presenting Bird with a piece of the Los Angeles Forum floor,
Johnson said Bird told one lie during his career. ``He said 'there will
be another player as great as me'.
	``Larry,'' Johnson continued. ``There will never be another Larry
Bird.''
	Last year, when Johnson had his No. 32 retired by the Lakers, Bird
had given Johnson a piece of the Boston Garden's parquet floor.
	Bird's retired 33 will fly alongside 16 Celtics NBA championship
banners, 17 other retired numbers and a microphone honoring the late
Celtic announcer Johnny Most.
	Boston Garden sold out months ago for the ceremony and a lottery was
held to distribute the precious tickets.

    
    
    JaKe
    

  
    All of this complaining about the Bird ceremony sounds like so much 
    Calvinistic fretting: if enough people are having fun at something then
    there *has* to be something wrong with it (and to think that the lead 
    objectioner hails from The City Where Hype Never Sleeps)!  The event 
    was very well done, not to mention an incredible success (including for
    charities); by employing Bob Costas instead of some local Johnny
    Most-wannabe it was devoid of blatant homerism and was smooth and
    well-balanced all around.  What people who may not have been in Boston
    for the entire Bird era must understand is that this kind of ceremony
    is not the rule in Boston and is unlikely to be repeated at any time
    in the near future.  While I've never been a particularly big
    basketball (and Celtics') fan, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind
    that Larry Bird is the most popular athlete in Boston sports' history. 
    The ceremony was well-deserved and appropriate, if for no other reason
    than that Bird fans (not Bird, and not the Celtics) demanded it.
    
    glenn
      

Glen,

Nothing in Boston that has to do with the Celtics has ever been or will
ever be well balanced. Not a complaint just a fact.

The Crazy Met

TCM,

Nothing in New York that has to do with the Knicks has ever been or will
ever be well balanced. Not a complaint just a fact.

The Chainsaw

    
    Nothing TCM, a jealous Knicks fan says, that has to do with the Celtics
    has ever been or will ever be well balanced. Not a complaint just a fact.
    
    brews

re: .59 - no argument

re: .60 - almost no argument. Only argument is that when I first started
following basketball the Knicks and Celtics fought it out every year and
did equally as well. So the jealousy part is incorrect.

The Crazy Met

    Knicks 1 title in 70's .NE. Celtics 2 titles.

    Actually Brews it's 2-2.
    Knicks 70(or 71),73. Celts 74 and 76.
    
    And what others have said. In any city you'll get bias. Look at
    the Sunstool we git from Heiserdisciple 8^).
    But only in NooYawk would the Knicks champeenships be referred to
    as "the great Knick Dynasty". Red Auerbach, A nooYawka hisself, got
    quite the chuckle and apoplexy about that. Remember after the
    Celtics\beat the Bucks in '74, Auerbach could be heard to crow,
    "Where's that great Knick dynasty?"
    
    MikeL
    

    	Knicks won in '70 and '73 and the Celtics won in '74 and '76.
    The only difference was the two Knicks titles were considered a
    dynasty while the two Celtics titles were considered underachieving
    in comparison the the RUSSELL years.
    
    				/Don

>    dynasty while the two Celtics titles were considered underachieving
>    in comparison the the RUSSELL years.
    
Slasher, 

Those were REBUILDING years, I believe....8^)

Ah yes, the great "Knicks Dynasty" bull crap spouted by
Celtics fans.

Funny how folks like myself living in New York don't see
mention of this dynasty - cept by folks who lived in Boston
area and were Red Auerbach/Celtics fans.  

I even have most of the papers/clippings from that era
at my folks house, and there is no talk of a dynasty.

Given the state of Willis Reed's knees, everyone knew that
wouldn't happen.


But then again, I'm certain folks living in Boston would
know more about things happening in New YOrk than a New
Yorker.

And again, growing up, the Bullets seemed like more of a rival
at that time then the Celtics.

JD

right on JD. And isn't it amazing that Celtic fans can't comprehend 
a motive for disliking the Celtic's other than jealousy. Yeah I don't 
remember a whole lot of talk about a Knicks dynasty. But then again
the Boston media must have had a much better idea of what was going on
in New York than the New York folks did. But wait a minute most of
the Boston media doesn't cover anything that is outside the 495 area.
Hmm a contradiction that I am sure someone will try to explain.

Bullets of that era also had some great teams, but it took them until
1978 to win a championship. Bucks were pretty good too.

The Crazy Met

    We've had this discussion too many times. That "Knick dynasty" bullcrap
    is cetainly no figment of my or others' imaginations. Where itt
    emanated from, I can't recall, but it did exist. I'm sure I saw it
    in Boston papers ( gee possibly from NooYawkish players/announcers/
    feigns) as well as the national media. I never said it was a surefire
    NooYawk creation, but since it's the national media center, it didn't
    have to be. The mere presence of a NooYawk champeenship ( and they
    were great teams btw, see no jealousy) lends credence to the hyperbole
    and boasting of a media-blitzed "Dynasty" groundswell. It's what the
    networks wanted to promulgate.  Hey, maybe we got it from Johnny Mosted
    too,and we know he MUSTA heard it in NooYawk. Twas probably all those
    champeened-starved Yankee fans who never could forget thoise 50's and
    60's champeenships. Or maybe those faux Mutt fans who were reliving
    the gloried days of da Bums and Giants with the 69 champeenship.
    Had to be Glickman and Albert that started it. 8^)'s
    
    And as far as jealousy goes, who stated that Knick fans were jealous
    of the Celtic champeenships? I could care less whether jealousy was
    used or not as a reason for disliking the Celts.  Fact is, we're ahead
    16-2. Phtttttttt.  8^)
    
    
    MikeL
    
    

> right on JD. And isn't it amazing that Celtic fans can't comprehend 
> a motive for disliking the Celtic's other than jealousy.
    
    What other reason could there be for your petty rantings on the subject
    of Larry Bird?  I can completely understand the backlash against Johnny
    Most, Red Auerbach and other aspects of the Celtics' franchise, but
    quite frankly I can't understand how any moderately respectful sports
    fan could say "good riddance" or "happiness is..." upon the retirement 
    of a Larry Bird (or Magic Johnson, or Wayne Gretzky, or Mickey Mantle, 
    or any other genuine sports legend).
    
    glenn
    

re: .68

See .60 for the jealousy comment.

re: .69

Actually the p-name is to balance the scale from last weeks p-name.

The Crazy Met

I don't know about JD but Inever claimed the mantel of Objective Sports 
Analyst. But if you insist ...

The Crazy Met

    
     Seems like the old double standard to me. It's ok to hate the 
    Cowboys because of their fans and their image but not the Celtics.
      
    
    
     

           
    > Seems like the old double standard to me. It's ok to hate the 
    > Cowboys because of their fans and their image but not the Celtics.
    
    I gave the reasons why I "hate" (in good fun) the Cowboys, and I've
    admitted that the same reasons apply to Red Auerbach, Johnny Most, etc.  
    What's to hate about Larry Bird?
    
    glenn
    

Come on Glen. Trying to separate the whole todo last week from the
Celtics and associate it solely with Bird is pushing it. 

The Crazy Met

    
   >> What's to hate about Larry Bird?
    
      Well, if'n you really wanted to look for them you could probably 
      find reasons to hate anyone but that ain't the isher here. I'm
      a 'Tics fan myself but I could easily see how folks get a little
      tired or even annoyed at the way some folks carry on about Larry
      as if he was Ghandi on a basketball court. It almost makes you
      think maybe Dennis Rodman was right. The problem ain't with Larry.
    
    

    re .70
    
    I never said all Knicks fans were jealous of the Celtics success, just
    TCM.
    
    brews

    ...and the Red Sox fans are jealous of the Yankmes success.

    
> Come on Glen. Trying to separate the whole todo last week from the
> Celtics and associate it solely with Bird is pushing it. 
    
    What are you talking about?  This is the "Larry's Farewell" note, isn't
    it?  Last week was the infamous ceremony, no?  It seemed pretty apparent 
    to me that the focus of the latest anti-Jihad outburst and this entire
    ridiculous string had to do with Bird.
    
    Tommy, I don't think the point is that there are some fans out there
    who have distorted views of Larry Bird.  I'm not particularly a huge 
    Larry Bird fan myself (but I'll be at the park on Roger Clemens Day and
    Jim Rice Day when he says the time is right, as I was for the Yaz and 
    Williams appreciations).  The point is that the cynicism in here 
    towards anything that might just be a little bit good and deserved and 
    maybe even fun gets to be overwhelming sometimes.  I think that if some 
    of you guys had witnessed Lou Gehrig's famous "Luckiest Man on Earth" 
    speech you'd have come armed with tomatoes because ol' Lou probably 
    wasn't being 100% sincere about not being afraid of death and, besides,
    it was a well-established fact that he wasn't even the best 
    player on his own team...
    
    glenn
    

    Let's try a different tactic here, with another player that's been
    talked about in here:  Charles Barkley.
    
    Charles is a great player.  Charles has a great will to win.  When
    Charles was with the 76ers, Celtic fans didn't like him because of
    his attitude and he's with a rival.  He's a Sun now.  With some of
    his actions and comments people have given Mr. Heiser a hard time
    because he likes and defends the Sun's star player.  He's having
    an MVP season, and people are saying he's a bum... etc...
    
    Now, Bird hasn't made the comments and all that, but you can appreciate
    the talent and still not think kindly of him for whatever reason.  The
    "Rodman" reason or whatever.  I don't think that's that far fetched.
    I respect what Larry did in his career, but I had no interest in
    watching the lovefest, collecting Bird memorabilia or any of that.
    Bird is part of the Celtic mystique.  Barkley was part of the 76er
    mystique.  You can separate the player and the team.  But you don't
    have to. 

   >> Tommy, I don't think the point is that there are some fans out there
   >> who have distorted views of Larry Bird.  

      Glenn, you have this habit of trying to tell me what the *real* 
      point is. I like to think that I can figure out the *real* point
      myself. In this case, you're asking why people dislike Larry Bird 
      and you're telling us that we're against anything that might be fun. 
      And I'm telling you that you're wrong. People, myself included, 
      just think this whole Larry Lovefest has gone abit overboard. Strike 
      the "abit" and make that "way". If you think differently, that's cool.
      That doesn't make you pro or anti anything. It just means that you
      have a different opinion and that's allowed. For my money, Larry was
      a great ballplayer who played with several other great ballplayers 
      for a franchise that has a history of great ballplayers. That's all.
      Did he merit a 2 and � hour tv special? I didn't think so but appar-
      ently a bunch of folks did. I just fell like anybody who could sit 
      through 2 and � hours of Larry highlights and Larry anectdotes has a 
      much higher boredom threshold than I do. But that's just my opinion.
  
   >> I think that if some of you guys had witnessed Lou Gehrig's famous 
   >> "Luckiest Man on Earth" speech you'd have come armed with tomatoes 
   >> because ol' Lou probably wasn't being 100% sincere about not being 
   >> afraid of death and, besides, it was a well-established fact that he 
   >> wasn't even the best player on his own team...
    
      You think that we'd throw tomatoes at a dying man? You must mean TCM
      because while I'd never do such a thing, I can't vouch for him!
    

Glenn -

Just to clarify that I never hated Larry Bird, and
appreciated his talents.   Never too enthralled with Larry as
diety, however (read:  many Celts fans)

SLasher - 

Yeah, and you, Leary, et al are really *objective*?

As for the jealousy angle - like with the Yankees champeenships,
mostof  the Celts run happened either before I was born, or when
I was too young to give a rats ass about hoops.

I do laugh when folks I know are my age talk about the Celts
glory, knowing they were oh, aged 1-6 when the real dynasty
was around.   

Sort of like back in New York when Yankee fans my age spouted
off about the great teams of Ruth and dimaggio!  C'mon they
weren't even born when those guys were around!

Maybe for the real old guys like Slasher who was around for the
complete Celtics run its something....

JD

I think it's human nature to be a bit over-sentimental sometimes.

The Lou Gehrig farewell, the Babe Ruth farewell and the Larry Bird farewell
could all be said to have been overdone.   

But when you think about it, perhaps you have to overdo it.   These fellows
gave a lot of pleasure to a lot of ordinary people.  As much as some of the
Hollywood people, these guys were Dream Merchants.  How many kids in Boston
have been on the playground, saying to themselves, perhaps even in a Johnny
Most voice, "Bird with the ball, 3, 2, 1", and they hoist a shot up.

How many kids playing stickball in Noo Yawk pretended to be the Sultan of
Swat or the Iron Horse....

So, how do you say thank you to someone who's given you a dream?  Or
someone who has fulfilled your own Walter Mitty fantasies?

I guess you gush a little, and make a day or night to remember.


I'd chalk it up to human nature.....


'Saw

    What the hell is everybody talking about in here?
    
    I've never been objective about the Celtics and never will. And neither
    have you, JD, about the Knicks. Big deal. It's to be expected. And
    I stated as much. As far as disliking the Celts, go ahead, I don't
    object to that, it's anyone's right. I didn't mention the jealousy
    factor. BFD. If that'w what fuels your dislike, then knock joself 
    out. I don't give a FFIARD about whatever causes you to dislike
    any team. And as glenn said, there certainly are recognizable thangs
    about the Celts and their history, including tying the the Bird stuff,
    that could easily fuel dislike and I understand that. We is making
    a mountain outta a molehill.  But in Celtic history, when you hot,
    you hot ( as in da past) and when you not, you not (as in the Knicks).
    8^).
    
    As far as age, JD, I is a wee bit older than you and I remember every
    Celtic champeenship except for the first one (1957). Even as a tyke ah
    carried my transistor around and listened to Johnny Mosted describe
    every champeenship moment. Is that livin' in the past?  Probly, but I
    LOVES it.
    
    MikeL
    

    Whatever, guys.  While I agree that the ceremony was perhaps excessive
    (although I caught the last hour which highlighted Magic and thought
    that it was very good), I guess I just have a different viewpoint of
    sports in general.  It's all well and good to have fun with in-season 
    disputes and rivalries and such, but when the greats of the game hang
    them up I do think that they are entitled to some respect.  To me it's
    totally irrelevant what "someone else thinks", and if you can't (and
    most sports fans, in Boston as anywhere else, probably don't) see
    through the more silly show-biz and ticket-selling aspects of these
    rivalries and controversies, then you've missed the whole point (if you
    listen to Magic you'd certainly hear that these two haven't missed what
    it's all about-- and it's not Celtics vs. Lakers per se).  Otherwise 
    it's all just one big soap opera with no virtue to the competition 
    other than its strict entertainment value.
    
    glenn
    

   >> -< I just can't hold these grudges after retirement... >-
    
      You're just a beautiful human being.    
    

            Top Ten Reasons Why Larry Is A Legend


            10) His award winning soufl��s.
    

             9) He can converse equally well about
                round ball or the Algonquin Round 
                table.
    

             8) His many sordid affairs with members
                several European royal families.
    

             7) His book "Did Willy Make It?" provides
                the most convincing evidence to date that
                Shakespeare did not write the many works
                attributed to him.
    

             6) He gets respect from both the Bloods *and* the Crips. 
    

             5) In addition to being a legendary basketball player,
                back home he's also known as "The Mambo King Of French 
                Lick."
    

             4) His work in the off-season researching med-
                icinal plants in the Amazon rain forest has 
                already paid off in treatments for many affl-
                ictions and may one day even provide a cure for 
                the common cold.
    

             3) He's also a much sought after UNIX consultant.
    

             2) His singing has inspired comparisons to Sam Cooke and
                Nat King Cole.
    

              And the number one reason why Larry is a legend...
    
  
             1) He can order dinner at Chinese restaurants in fluent
                Cantonese.
    
    
    

YOu slay me Tommy, you really slay me man.

Now to get the coffee off my workstation!


8^)

 >> The Lou Gehrig farewell, the Babe Ruth farewell and the Larry 
 >> Bird farewell could all be said to have been overdone.   

    Personally, I think comparisons to Lou Gehrig are wholly in-
    appropriate. If Larry has a fatal disease, it's hype-o-thermia.
    (Get it? hahahahaha)

 >> But when you think about it, perhaps you have to overdo it.   
 >> These fellows gave a lot of pleasure to a lot of ordinary people.  

    So don't hookers. When the last time a call girl had a 2 and a �
    hour tv special?

 >> How many kids in Boston have been on the playground, saying to them-
 >> selves, perhaps even in a Johnny Most voice, "Bird with the ball, 3, 
 >> 2, 1", and they hoist a shot up.

    So, you're saying he encouraged under age drinking?


 >> So, how do you say thank you to someone who's given you a dream?  Or
 >> someone who has fulfilled your own Walter Mitty fantasies?

    Like this, "Thanks, Larry. Don't forget to write!"

 >> I guess you gush a little, and make a day or night to remember.

    A "little"? This was a little more than a "little". In fact it was
    a little more than alot.

    

re: .87

Tommy, that cost me my first cup of coffee.

The Crazy Met

    	Hey this discussion is getting as long and dragged out as the
    ceremony was.  Let's get to the hot topic of the day.  Is/was Larry
    a good father?
    
    				/Don

Tommy,

Any chance of you preceeding notes like .87 with a warning something along
the lines of...

	CAUTION   Reading the following note with a mouth full of food
		  could cause your screen to look like the bottom of 
		  a garbage disposal.

Thanks a pant load!
Bill

    	Celtics Make It a Magical Night for Larry Legend.
    
    	It wasn't a farewell, but an event for the ages, as the Boston
    Celtics threw a retirement party Thursday night for one of their own, a
    transplanted guy from rural Indiana named Larry Joe Bird.
    	Officially called, "Larry Bird Night," the ceremony was a
    combination of Celtic pomp and circumstance, the basketball equivalent
    of a Kennedy wedding.  But in keeping with the Bird persona, it also
    included blue-collar tributes from fans and former teammates and
    coaches.
    	Bird-mania transfixed this sports-crazed town as the date grew
    near.  The Boston Globe published a special section on Bird thick
    enough to pin an arm to the ground.  Commemorative T-shirts sold for
    $15.50.  Autographed photographs of Bird sold for $4.25.  Larry Bird
    Limited Edition Coins, complete with an easy payment plan, went for as
    much as $995.  Autographed plaques had $139 price tags.  The retirement
    party had become a cottage industry, but in this case, all the net
    proceeds from the sales went to the Celtic charitable foundation, of
    which Bird is a key member.
    	If you couldn't secure one of the 14,890 seats available for the
    night's festivities, scalpers were more than happy to part with a
    ticket-for up to $500, depending on the location.  According to Steven
    Riley, the Celtics' vice president of sales, Larry Bird Night was the
    toughest ticket to get since the seventh game of the 1984 NBA finals.
    	Maybe the Garden isn't The House That Bird Built, but at the very
    least, he strengthened its foundation.  So pathetic was the franchise
    before Bird's arrival in 1979, that team officials used to sneak over
    to Fenway Park during the Red Sox games and place Celtic season-ticket
    applications under each car's wiper blades.
    	It didn't work, but Bird did.  By the end of his rookie year,
    season ticket sales had increased from 4,800 to about 10,000.  Suddenly
    it didn't matter if you had one of the 1,000 obstructed view seats or
    if you were forced to watch from rafter's edge.  A glimpse of the great
    Bird was better than no glimpse at all.
    	This is the building where Bird led the Celtics to three NBA
    championships, which is all that ever truly mattered to him.  Anything
    less was so unfulfilling, so . . . ordinary.  But not to worry.  During
    the Bird Era, the place almost always reeked of the smell from Red
    Auerbach's champioship stogies.
    	It was on the parquet floor that Bird earned every penny of his
    salary, from the $650,000 paid to him during his rookie season, to the
    $2.1 million he made last year.  He wouldn't have it any other way.  It
    was on that court that Bird earned a legacy and a nickname: Larry
    Legend.  Perfect.
    	Bird had insisted that if there were to be such a ceremony as the
    one Thursday-and mind you, he had to be convinced-it would and should
    take place onlt at the magical, rat-friendly, ancient Boston Garden.
    	After all, this is where he made his professional debut, getting 14
    points and 10 rebounds against the Houston Rockets.  It is where he
    fought with Julius Erving.  Where he left bits and pieces of himself on
    the ancient wooden floor.  Where he celebrated.  Where he ached.
    	In the oven-roasted heat of the Garden in 1984, where the Lakers
    and Celtics played Game 5 of the NBA finals in 97-degree temperatures,
    Bird scored 34 points (15 for 20 from the field) and collected 17
    rebounds in the victory.  The Lakers gasped for oxygen, referee Hugh
    Evans collapsed from dehydration.  And Bird?  He flicked the sweat from
    his brow, as if he were born to play on hell's court.
    	The Garden was basketball home to Bird.  It was safe, familiar,
    lovable.  He did not leave without first making sure there were enough
    moments to treasure.  Even last year, when his back throbbed with pain
    and retirement was a disheartening reality, Bird did what he could.  In
    a March 15 game against the Portland Trail Blazers, he scored 49 points
    and had 14 rebounds as the Celtics won in double overtime.
    	There was no shortage of basketball dignitaries Thursday night.  An
    hour before the ceremony began,  Auerbach stood near one of the
    Garden's entrances and puffed gently on a cigar as he answered
    reporter's questions.  This was an evening for him to cherish, an
    affirmation that the Celtic family he helped create and nurture was
    anything but myth.
    	Nearly every notable former Celtic player or coach was there: M. L.
    Carr, Don Chaney, Satch Sanders, Jo Jo White, John Havlicek, Bill
    Fitch, Scott Wedman, Rick Robey, Bill Sharman, Ed Macauley, Frank
    Ramsey, Gerald Henderson, Quinn Buckner, Tom Heinsohn, Tiny Archibald,
    Bill Walton, Dennis Johnson, K. C. Jones, Jerry Sichting, Artis
    Gilmore, Rick Carlisle and Dave Cowens, among others.  Even Cedric
    Maxwell, traded away and bitter over the dismissal, returned to pay
    tribute to Bird.  In fact, Maxwell was the first former Celtic to
    respond to the invitation.
    	Bobby Orr, the former Boston Bruin great, was at the Garden, too. 
    It was Bird's habit before every home game to stare up toward the
    rafters as the national anthem was played.  From those rafters hung
    Orr's retired jersey number.  Bird used it as inspiration.
    	Now Bird's number joins Orr's number high in the Garden heavens.
    	At 7:35, Dave Gavitt, Celtic vice president of basketball
    operations, welcomed everyone to the proceedings.  It was the beginning
    of an evening to remember.
    	The first standing ovation of the night was reserved not for any
    Celtic figure, past or present, but for Bird's mother, Georgia.  Asked
    by emcee Bob Costas to comment on her son, she would say only, "He was
    a great little boy."
    	The crowd rose to its feet a few minutes later and began chanting,
    "Lar-ree, Lar-ree,", when Bird made his entrance from a corner tunnel. 
    He had changed from his dark, double-breasted suit worn during a pre-
    ceremony news conference to familiar white Celtic warm-up attire.  It
    fit the moment.
    	Seated on a stool at center stage of the Garden floor, Bird
    acknowledge the audience with shy nods and waves.
    	"It seems like a perfect night, except for the fact that Bill
    Laimbeer [a long time Bird antagonist with the Detroit Pistons]
    couldn't be here," Costas said.  "What would you tell him if he were
    here?"
    	Said Bird: "That we would probably hang him up with [the banners]."
    	Former players and coaches were introduced.  Video highlights of
    Bird's high school, college and pro career were shown on huge screens
    positioned inside in the arena.  After each segment, Bird would
    reminisce.
    	On the best advice he received as a Celtic: "Dave Cowens told me,
    `Don't go about it 90, 80%, because the fans know basketball here.'"
    	On the 1985-86 Celtics, winners of the NBA championship: "The best
    team I've ever seen in the league."
    	On the NBA finals game against the Lakers in the broiling Garden:
    "To the Celtics, it wasn't that hot."
    	There were stories shared and lots of laughter.  Maxwell recalled
    the first time he faced Bird in practice and watched helplessly as
    20-foot jump shots kept snapping the net.
    	"I'll always remember thinking, `Boy, this white guy can play,
    can't he?`"
    	NBA Commissioner David Stern said he was already counting the days
    until Bird and Magic Johnson are inducted into the league's Hall of
    Fame.
    	Carr waved a towel and then, after tossing it to Magic, reminded
    him of the famous 1984 Sweat Game, when on-court temperatures reached
    97 degrees.
    	"All I remember was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with an oxygen tank to his
    face," he said.
    	But some of the evening's most treasured moments came after Magic,
    who also shed his suit in favor of Laker warm-ups (with a Celtic
    T-shirt underneath), took  his place on the stage.  Returning the favor
    when Bird attended his retirement party in Los Angeles last year. 
    Johnson presented his friend with a framed piece of the Forum court. 
    He also brought other gifts, mainly golden memories.
    	"You know, you caused me a lot of sleepless nights," said Johnson,
    shortly after receiving a two-minute standing ovation from the Garden
    audience.
    	It was an ironic comment, considering that Bird has recently
    confessed that he still dreams about basketball-and that Johnson is
    always in those dreams.
    	Johnson remember the Logan Airport baggage man who used to yell,
    "Magic, Larry's going to get you tommorow."  He remembered that he
    truly feared only one player: Bird. "Because this man would find a way
    to win that damn game."  He remembered that trash talking done by Bird
    and how each time Bird would back it up.
    	And then he chastised Bird.
    	"You told me one lie, only one," Johnson said.  "You know what that
    lie was?  Larry Bird said that there will be another Larry Bird.  Well,
    Larry, there will never, ever, ever, be another Larry Bird."
    	Bird and Johnson hugged, but not before Magic said:  "I love you. 
    I respect you.  I admire you."
    	Jerseys were exchanged.  The Lakers jersey Johnson presented to
    Bird read: "To the greatest basketball player ever, but more
    importantly, a friend forever."
    	There were more video highlights shown.  Then Auerbach paid homage
    and confessed a secret.
    	"The only regret I have, I never coached him," he said.
    	At last it came to raise the banner.  Holding his young son Connor
    in one arm, Bird and his wife, Dinah, tugged on a rope and pulled the
    banner into place.  Auerbach pulled on the other side.
    	A spotlight was placed on Bird and on the banner, which bore his
    No. 33 next to Dennis Johnson's No. 3.  There it now rests, between the
    1986 NBA championship banner and the second of three banners that
    feature the other 16 retired Celtic numbers.
    	Again, more chants of, "Lar-ree, Lar-ree."
    	Bird returned to the stage and addressed the audience. 
    Occasionally his remarks were interrupted by cries of, "We love you,
    Larry," and "Thank you, Larry."
    	Bird spoke of Celtic pride and a Boston career that spanned 13
    seasons.  He told the crowd he would miss them and half-apologized for
    leading the Celtics to only three NBA championships.  He thought they
    could have won five.
    	His voice rich with emotion, Bird said a final farewell.
    	"I say good night, Boston, and may God bless each and every one of
    you," he said.
    	In his autobiography, "Drive-The Story of My Life," Bird wrote that
    his career would end the same way it began: on his terms, according to
    his timetable.  A fickle and oft-injured back wouldn't allow him that
    luxury, forcing him to retire two, maybe three years before he had
    planned.  But he did get one wish.
    	"When the time comes," Bird wrote, "I just want to be able to walk
    out on that court one last time and say, `Thank you.'"
    	So he did.  And a city, forever touched by his pride, his skills,
    his love of being a Celtic, said thank you back.  IT was the least it
    could do.
    
    	from LA Times

For my coup de grace in the "Knicks Dynasty" crap spouted by
Celts fans like ?don and Mike L.

Weren't the Knicks of those years much like the Broons of those
years?   You know, finally getting champeenships (both got
two) after years of not getting any, and years of seeing one
other team win a slew (celts/Canadiens).  In 73, after the
Canadiens beat da Broons, didn't da Canadiens coach utter
these famous words "So much for the Broons dynasty"

The two run other parallels - for a Knicks fan, Willis' walking
on da floor in game 7 is as dear and revered as Orr's game
winner.

Waiting for the spin control.

JD

    I got to watch the ceremony last night and loved every minute of it. 
    Folks, that's a nice piece of history to add to your sports
    memorabilia.
    
    Mike

    
    
    
>>For my coup de grace in the "Knicks Dynasty" crap spouted by
>>Celts fans like ?don and Mike L.
    
    First of all, no one has established that it IS crap. I certainly
    heard it aplenty. Are you denying you ever heard it while in NY?
    

>>Weren't the Knicks of those years much like the Broons of those
>>years?   You know, finally getting champeenships (both got
>>two) after years of not getting any, and years of seeing one
>>other team win a slew (celts/Canadiens).  In 73, after the
>>Canadiens beat da Broons, didn't da Canadiens coach utter
>>these famous words "So much for the Broons dynasty"
    
    Now that you mention it, yea the comparison is valid. And I certainly
    do remember that talk of "Dynasty" emanating from the Boston media
    ( and to be trooful, from all hockey media, including NY and Montreal
    in them days). Yup we was wrong. Now I have no idea if the Habs coach
    uttered such a statement but he would have been well within his right
    (even tho the Broons lost to the Flyers in the finals of '74, and
    to further the parallel, whar was the Knicknacks in '74??). Ironically
    twas not the Canadiens who ousted the Broons in '73 but the dreaded
    yes *Rangers*. But I digress. However, are you sure this "Broon
    dynasty" bull crap was not foisted on us by the all-knowing NooYawk
    media? After all, don't they know everything that goes on in this
    beloved hamlet?
    
    And I congratulate you on your carefully worded concession, JD. You see
    confession is good for the soul. By drawing this correct parallel, then
    you slyly admmit that the "Knick dynasty" perpetrated on us by
    different sources is indeed "crap". ( the dynasty dat is!)

>>The two run other parallels - for a Knicks fan, Willis' walking
>>on da floor in game 7 is as dear and revered as Orr's game
>>winner.

 Again you draw a good parallel from your perspective. Never denied or
 doubted your deserved reverance and joy for the Knicks.... as with the
    Broons, for THOSE two years.
    
>>Waiting for the spin control.

  None needed. Coup de grace indeed.
    
    Now that we've dispensed wif da Knicks, 1940! 1940! 1940!
    
    
    MikeL
    

    	Here!  Here!  MikeL!  Nobody said DaBroons� were a dynasty.
    Two titles only constitutes a dynasty in the Gotham State.  And
    I notice that JD and Craze have ducked the important Larry Bird
    question (Is/Was he a good father?).  More New Yawk trickery.
    
    				/Don

    
     Ain't there a gall-dang Knickerbockers note where you folks
    can take this discussion? I'm getting just a little tired of
    all you people sullying the "Bye-Bye, Larry. Kiss Kiss." note.
    

    If Larry Bird were a Knick this note would've had over 10,000 replies!

    Slasher, if everything we've heard to date is true, then I would say
    Larry is a terrible father.  He could stand to learn a couple things
    from his buddy Magic in this respect (acknowledging his first-born).
    
    However, experience tells me that there are 2-3 sides to every story
    (depending on whether you believe Extreme or not).  As Larry said, he
    is a tremendously proud person and I'm sure he has his reasons (pride
    related or not).
    
    Mike

    
    >>He could stand to learn a couple things
    >>from his buddy Magic in this respect (acknowledging his first-born).
      
    And probably a thing or two about storing "salami", too!!!
    
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    
    
    

    
     If Larry Bird were a Knick there would've been a made-for-tv movie
    of his life's story based on an unauthorized Kitty Kelly biography.
    

    Tommy, I never said that you were not entitled to your opinion, and it
    was not my motive to pigeonhole you by supplying you with a "point"
    to the discussion.  However, if you offer that my opinion is not just 
    one that you happen to disagree with but is also guilty of a "double 
    standard", then yes, likewise I will respond to what I feel is also a
    misrepresentation (for the reasons I gave).  Enough of that. 
    
    The "Is Bird a Good Father?" question now being debated in the
    newspapers and on radio is receiving the typical "Intrusive? Moi?" 
    treatment from the self-important sports media of this town.  The
    mainstream Boston media dared not touch this subject *before* the 
    event (or actually at any point during Bird's career, truth be told)
    because of their own interests at stake.  If Bird would have known of
    the trouble this would have caused early enough he might just have 
    decided not to go through with the whole thing because he apparently
    wasn't that thrilled with it to begin with.  But now these 
    professional "journalists" who of course could never be influenced by
    anything like the special advertising sections their papers ran to
    capitalize on the event are pointing fingers at Bird and the Celtics
    saying that it was *they* who decided to put Bird's private life on
    display and make it fair game (which is nonsense, of course; it was 
    Bird's basketball life that was being celebrated, his successes as an
    athlete, not his extracurricular contributions to humanity).  I 
    actually heard Gerry Callahan state that the story was legitimate
    "news" simply because people are interested in it-- which in a way
    I'm sure he didn't intend comes closest to the truth of the matter 
    and tells you everything you need to know about the standards of his
    paper...
    
    glenn
    

�Barkley was part of the 76er
�    mystique.  
    
    What 76er mystique?  Philly has been also rans for most of Charles'
    career.

    Explain how this thing with Larry and his daughter isn't noteworthy in
    light of the Marcus Webb affair?  That dragged on for weeks and had
    nothing to do with anything on the court.
    
    The writer noticed a part of Larry's family wasn't there, called, found
    out she wasn't invited and wrote a story.  Big deal.  Larry didn't want
    her there.  So?  But I don't see what's wrong with writing about it.

    After what Larry did for the NBA and the Boston sports scene, I don't
    know how anyone can begrudge him or his fans for a 2� lovefest.
    
    If you added up all the halftime shows during Jabbar's and Erving's
    final seasons I'm sure it would come to over 2� hours.
    
    Walt, I think Glenn is asking the question of why it is news now and
    not when Bird was playing or before the retirement bash.  Larry has had
    an estranged daughter for years.

           
    > Explain how this thing with Larry and his daughter isn't noteworthy in
    > light of the Marcus Webb affair?  That dragged on for weeks and had
    > nothing to do with anything on the court.
    
    In the first place the alleged entanglement with the police was directly
    related to Webb's obligations to the Celtics as he supposedly missed a
    doctor's appointment and practice because of it.  This is "sports news"
    around the team, albeit minor.  Much more seriously, Webb's accusation 
    potentially represented a civil rights violation on the part of police 
    and as such should be (and is) a very sensitive issue, one that
    certainly no one would argue should have gone unreported had the 
    allegations been true.  At that point a criminal investigation is at
    stake, and the stories dragged on because no one around the Celtics
    would come clean with the truth.  I don't think Webb can make such a 
    dangerous statement and then simply turn around and say "just kidding, 
    it's a personal matter". 
    
    > The writer noticed a part of Larry's family wasn't there, called, found
    > out she wasn't invited and wrote a story.  Big deal.  Larry didn't want
    > her there.  So?  But I don't see what's wrong with writing about it.
    
    I don't see a legitimate need for the public to have this information.
    No one is accusing Bird of failing to meet his societal obligations to
    his ex-wife or daughter.  He is not a deadbeat dad; there is no element 
    of criminality, none whatsoever.  It's simply a vacuous "human interest"
    piece; there is nothing at stake that the public is missing out on by
    not knowing this.  On a more serious subject but justified with the 
    exact same rationale the same thing happened with Arthur Ashe.  Some 
    scumbag followed up a lead, got his confirmation and wrote a story. 
    The public was certainly interested and had every right (but not need)
    to know, and while the reporter was certainly entitled to bang out his 
    story it was done with no consultation with or consideration of the 
    subject. 
    
    glenn
    

    
   >> Walt, I think Glenn is asking the question of why it is news now and
   >> not when Bird was playing or before the retirement bash.  Larry has had
   >> an estranged daughter for years.
    
      Maybe her absence was never so conspicuous as it was during the 2 �
     hour love-in.

    >> It's simply a vacuous "human interest" piece; there is nothing 
    >> at stake that the public is missing out on by not knowing this. 
    
       If what the "public is missing out by not knowing" were to be the 
       measuring stick then the sports section of the newspaper would be 
       about two pages long on a good day. 
    

    >   If what the "public is missing out by not knowing" were to be the 
    >   measuring stick then the sports section of the newspaper would be 
    >   about two pages long on a good day. 
    
    Very true.  These days even in reputable newspapers the sports pages
    more than any other section resembles a gossip sheet.  It's not so much 
    that they print it, which is their right; I just cringe when sportswriters 
    try to pass the stuff off as serious journalism and themselves as 
    professionals dedicated to a public service.  And many of them do 
    exactly that, particularly in Boston with a level of moral condescension
    not approached in many other cities...
    
    glenn
    

re: to print or not to print

Unfortuanately, it has become a money/competitive game.  The newspapers will 
print anything that will sell, and experience tell us that a story appealing 
to the darker side of human nature will sell every time.  

Also, the media is always hyping itself as being the best.  Case in point, since
they have come on the air, neither newspaper in Boston have said a good word 
about the sports radio station, who, despite their drawbacks, offer a very 
comptitive vehicle for sports news and comentary.

The "Bird as a father" story obviously sold a lot of newspapers, so they would 
print it again if they could do it over.

=Bob=

    Magic retirement - Bird Showed up, Magic's son was there
    Bird retirement - Magic showed up, Bird's daughter wasn't there.
    
    You wouldn't find that strange?  One of her father's biggest nights
    in his life and she's not invited?

     That wasn't my point, Glenn. [isfh] 
    
     Where was all the hue and cry when the story of the rift between
    Ken Norton Sr. and Jr. broke? I didn't hear any in here. Could it
    be that Bird fans still hung over from the Larry Love-in don't want
    to hear that their hero has feet of clay? FWIW, although I didn't 
    and *wouldn't* read the stories, I have no qualms with newspapers 
    running the story of Bird and his daughter just as I had no qualms 
    with the stories of Larry's hard life as a young, dirt poor Indiana 
    hick. 

    
    > Magic retirement - Bird Showed up, Magic's son was there
    > Bird retirement - Magic showed up, Bird's daughter wasn't there.
    > 
    > You wouldn't find that strange?  One of her father's biggest nights
    > in his life and she's not invited?
    
    Bird in all likelihood is not what we would call a good father to this
    child.  Maybe he's a complete scumbag in this regard.  Who cares?  Why 
    do we need to know this about Bird any more than we would with the 
    co-worker in the next office?  Forget the nonsense about being a 
    "public figure"; Bird is not a public official, he does not answer to 
    the public.  It goes back to the fallacy of the sports fan thinking
    that anything beyond the way in which an athlete conducts himself 
    as a representative of his organization is somehow relevant to why
    we're interested in watching athletes compete in the first place.  If
    your boss exhibits the utmost of integrity and professionalism in his 
    dealings with you at work do you care what he's up to at home?
    
    glenn
    

    
    > Where was all the hue and cry when the story of the rift between
    > Ken Norton Sr. and Jr. broke?
    
    Was this a point of controversy?  I didn't realize that Norton was
    upset with such stories; in fact, I thought he was volunteering the
    info.  If somebody was digging around in closets then yes, I think
    that's inappropriate.                
    
    > FWIW, although I didn't 
    > and *wouldn't* read the stories, I have no qualms with newspapers 
    > running the story of Bird and his daughter just as I had no qualms 
    > with the stories of Larry's hard life as a young, dirt poor Indiana 
    > hick. 
      
    This is another media justification that I don't understand.  We
    printed this good stuff, therefore we're entitled to print the bad
    stuff (subtitled build the legend, then tear it down).  It's a 
    non-sequitur.  Larry Bird doesn't care whether they print any of it,
    and probably even prefers it that way!
    
    glenn
    

    
    >> Was this a point of controversy?  I didn't realize that Norton was
    >> upset with such stories; in fact, I thought he was volunteering the
    >> info.  If somebody was digging around in closets then yes, I think
    >> that's inappropriate.                
    
       Do you think he wanted his personal business on national tv and in the
       national press? Call it a hunch, but I don't think so. In fact, Ken Sr.
       looked pretty damned uncomfortable talking about it.
    
    >> This is another media justification that I don't understand.  We
    >> printed this good stuff, therefore we're entitled to print the bad
    >> stuff (subtitled build the legend, then tear it down).  It's a 
    >> non-sequitur. 
    
       I don't think that's their justification at all. They hear things,
       make a determination if it's newsworthy or not and then they either
       print it or they don't. Given the amount of talk this article has
       generated, I'd say they were right in this case.
    
    >> Larry Bird doesn't care whether they print any of it, and probably 
    >> even prefers it that way!
    
       Yeah, Larry didn't care enough that he wrote a whole book about him-
       self. What's more, it's not up to Larry Bird to decide what does or
       does not go in the newspaper.
    glenn
    
    

    
     >  I don't think that's their justification at all. They hear things,
     >  make a determination if it's newsworthy or not and then they either
     >  print it or they don't.
    
    I agree that it's not the *real* justification, but it was the ethical
    justification offered when some called the media to task.  Dan 
    Shaughnessy explicitly used the reporting of the adoption of Bird's 
    youngest daughter as reason enough to print anything about his oldest 
    one.  As if Bird was promoting this fact!
    
    >  What's more, it's not up to Larry Bird to decide what does or
    >  does not go in the newspaper.
    
    Obviously.  So don't use what's in the newspaper as some kind of
    implicit moral approval from the athlete for subsequent stuff that goes 
    in the newspaper (as well as reasoning like, well, we plastered Ted 
    Williams, and we plastered Roger Clemens, ergo it's only right and 
    proper to plaster Larry Bird).  Tell it like it is; if it's tacky but 
    interesting it goes in.  It's a business decision.
    
    And yes, most sports biographies tend to be petty and tacky from the
    other side of the coin.  There are precious few good ones...
    
    glenn                     
    

    >> Dan Shaughnessy explicitly used the reporting of the adoption 
    >> of Bird's youngest daughter as reason enough to print anything 
    >> about his oldest one.  As if Bird was promoting this fact!
    
       Actually, I think Shaugnessy used the page one story about the 
       adoption as evidence that athlete's private lives make the
       newspapers all the time.

    >> Obviously.  So don't use what's in the newspaper as some kind of
    >> implicit moral approval from the athlete for subsequent stuff that 
    >> goes in the newspaper 

       I don't see how you came up with this.

    >> (as well as reasoning like, well, we plastered Ted Williams, and 
    >> we plastered Roger Clemens, ergo it's only right and proper to plaster 
    >> Larry Bird).  

       They used the incident with Williams missing the birth of his
       daughter to show that the Bird story wasn't a precednt setter. 
       It's not like they were sitting around going, "It's Larry's turn 
       to get skewered. What can we use?"

    >> Tell it like it is; if it's tacky but interesting it goes in. It's 
    >> a business decision.
    
       I think the story is tacky, but plenty of others don't. I'm sure
       it wasn't an easy decsion for a conservative paper like the T&G
       to make. If the story was about Larry's habit of mincing about the
       house in a pink nightie, I'm sure they wouldn't have gone with
       it. This was, however, a judgement call and as such some folks
       will agree with it and others won't.
    

    If my boss had questionable character at home, it would make me wonder
    if he/she was on the up and up at work.  Then again, my boss isn't
    being touted as a hero and a role model by people.  I personally don't
    care, just like I don't care about Michael's gambling problem or Rod
    Stickland's getting into off-court incidents or James Worthy being
    caught in Houston, or Marvelous Hagler being honored by some other
    town.

Glenn -

Larry Bird certainly is a public figure, and his life was in
the 'public eye'.  Public figure are not just politicians.

Bird's career choice - much like an actors, a politicians,
a rock star - involves him being in the public eye - and such
his actions, on and off the court are help to more public
scrutiny then the average Joe.   More over, Bird also chose
to be more of a public figure by gladly increasing his net
worth by doing commercial endorsements and more recently, 
being a member of the "dream team" - these actions, which Bird
did himself, thrust him even further in public eye.

While you may not think this story about his relationship with
his daughter is worthy of the ink its printed with - you have
the option of not reading about it (something which I have 
chose to do, FWIW).   

As long as a spectrum of the public has an interest in this
story - it is newsworthy (and judging by the amount of call=ins
to shows, follow on stories, etc., I'd say its newsworthy).

JD

    
> Larry Bird certainly is a public figure, and his life was in
> the 'public eye'.  Public figure are not just politicians.
    
    This is a given.  Even with public figures (who can be anyone-- you 
    or I if there happens to be something about us that the public is
    interested in) you have to have standards.  Obviously not all
    newspapers have the same standards, or the National Enquirer would be
    equivalent to the New York Times.  So what is acceptable?  What's
    your standard?  I think the standard for "newsworthiness" has to be
    tighter than you've defined (simply what people are interested in; the
    market decides), because, after all, the National Enquirer is still in
    business.  By this standard there is literally *nothing* that should
    not be printed, however inaccurate...
    
    glenn
    
    

    Tommy, you're giving the Celtics Jihad a bad name.

    Mac I never knew that the Celtics Jihad had a good name.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    This was a great, great note.  Just happened on the sports note file
    and read if from back to front last night - and was late getting home
    to the ire of wife and young son.

    I truly like Larry and think he was a great rebounder and leader but my
    sympathies are with the "Jihad" crew on this one.

    Also, if folks think the Bird era Celtic "Arrogance?" is tough you
    truly should have seen it in the 60s.  We could not imagine a Russell
    team not winning the championship.  Fortunately the 67 loss was
    followed by the Red Sox great year and was to one of the great
    teams of all time.

    Lefty Sprockett
    

    The Larry Bird Night video has been fairly popular here.  I already had
    to make 2 copies for coworkers.  
    
    BTW - Anyone ever see Larry and Red's instructional tape called
    "Winning Basketball"?  Some good stuff on there as well.
    
    Mike

    Kevin McHale said something interesting in an interview that I 
    recently saw.  He said that while Jordan needs around 16-17 shot 
    attempts to dominate a game, Larry and Magic could take 10, hit 7 of 
    them, and be the game's MVP.  That's why Larry and Magic are better.

    In his humble opinion.... :-)
    
    and you dont think jordan can dominate a game with talents other
    then scoring you dont watch much BBall.  Majic and Bird played the
    role they were suted for on there respective teams, and jordan and
    doing that for the bulls.  But he proved a few years ago (winning
    the NBA Best Defender) that he can do just about whatever he wants
    on the BBall court.  IF they need him to run the game and play the
    point he can do it, if they need him to clamp down on the opposing
    teams number 1 guy and shut him down he can do it... And we all know
    that when they need him to score, he can do that.... Not taking
    anything away from bird or Magic but you have to list Jordan up with
    the best of all time if you know  BBall.... Mchale was talking from
    the heart ....

    {from "Magic Johnson: My Life}
    
During my career in the NBA, I went up against hundreds, maybe even thousands of
players.  Many were good.  A few were very good.  A tiny handful even deserved
to be called great.  But there was nobody greater than Larry Bird.  Michael
Jordan can do incredible things, including moves I've never seen before.
There's nobody like him.  But Larry is the only player I ever feared.  I felt
confident that the Lakers could beat any team in the league, and we usually did.
But when we played the Celtics, no lead was safe as long as Bird was on the
floor.  That's why our championship victories over Boston in 1985 and 1987 were
the most gratifying of all.  When you beat Larry Bird, you knew you had beaten
the best.

Larry and I came into the NBA at the same time, just after that final game of
our college careers in 1979.  And since then, we've been linked in people's
minds - "inextricably linked" is how the writers usually put it - although we
played on opposite ends of the country.  But it's true - there has always been a
special bond between us, even during the years when neither of us wanted to
admit it.  It took us a long time to become friends.  Since we'd play each other
only twice during the regular season, most of our contact came through
intermediaries - usually reporters, who kept asking us about the other guy.  If
Larry scored 35 points the night before, they wanted to know why I hadn't done
the same.  If I dished off 15 assists, they came running to Larry.  "Who's
better?" they wanted to know.  "You or Larry?"  "You or Magic?"  "Magic or
Bird?"

It wasn't long before the press started reporting that we didn't like each
other.  They said Magic was too flashy for Bird, that Bird was too gloomy for
Magic.  After a while, we both started to believe it.  If you're constantly
being compared to somebody, and you hear often enough that you don't like each
other, and you've never even had a conversation with the guy, eventually you
start to resent him.  Every time the Lakers played against the the Celtics, the
game was hyped as a grudge match, especially by CBS.  It was always "The Magic
Man versus the Bird Man," as if we were still back in college.  Before long,
Larry and I started playing the roles that people expected of us.  Before the
game, we didn't say a word to each other, didn't even shake hands.  We just gave
each other a look that said, "Yeah, OK, I know who you are, so let's get on with
it."

All this changed in the summer of 1984, after our big match-up in the Finals,
when we filmed two commercials together.  The first one was in Los Angeles for
the oil company Amoco.  Then I flew out to (Bird's) house in French Lick, Ind.,
to shoot a spot for Converse.  When you shoot a commercial, you spend most of
your time just standing around waiting.  And while we stood around, Larry and I
started talking.  As it turned out, we had plenty to talk about.  We started
with basketball, of course.  Then we got into salaries - we had a lot of fun
with that one.  In 1979, when we came into the league, the NBA wasn't very
glamorous.  TV ratings were falling, arenas were half-empty, and the average
player made less than $150,000.  Five years later, attendance had soared.  TV
ratings were way up - especially during the 1984 Finals.  The average salary for
an NBA player was now well over half a million dollars.  And while I'm sure
there were other explanations as well, everybody knew that one of the main
reasons for the dramatic increase in salaries was the presence of Larry Bird and
Magic Johnson.  Larry and I weren't exactly being underpaid.  But we weren't
making as much as we deserved, either.  Soon we were laughing and gossiping
about all the players in the NBA who, in our opinion, were both overrated and
overpaid.  As we sat there in Larry's living room in Indiana and compared notes,
I knew that this was a guy I could talk to and laugh with.

The most important thing we learned about each other that summer had nothing to
do with basketball or money.  We discovered, as we should have known all along,
that deep down we had a lot in common.  It's true that on the surface we seem
incredibly different.  Even beyond race.  People associate me with Hollywood.
And they often think of Larry as a farmer.  The truth is that we're both a
couple of small-town boys.  We're still close to our families, our teachers, our
former coaches, and the people we grew up with.  It's no accident that Larry
went back to French Lick every summer, while I returned to Lansing, Mich.  We
knew where we came from, and where we belonged.  After our meeting at Larry's
house, everything was different.  We were still rivals, of course.  But now
there was a warmth between us that made our competition much more fun.  One time
I was out because of an injury when the Celtics came to the Forum.  Before the
game, Larry walked over to our bench to say hello.  "Magic, you're not playing?
Then I'm gonna put on a show for you.  I want you to sit back and enjoy the
Larry Bird show."  Larry had an amazing afternoon, with something like 36
points, 20 rebounds, and 15 assists.  And every time he scored, he looked over
at me and smiled.  I just shook my head.  What a strange feeling it was: My team
was getting blown out, and this guy was doing it in my honor!

The amazing thing about Larry is that he has achieved his success without some
of the natural talents that other players take for granted.  My own physical
gifts are limited, but compared to this guy, I'm one of the Flying Wallenda
Brothers.  White men can't jump?  He's living proof.  Some white men don't move
too quickly, either.  A lot of players run faster, and yet Larry always seems to
beat them up the court.  Maybe that's because he knows exactly where he's going
and what he intends to do once he gets there.  Larry Bird is a testament to
importance of fundamentals.  He learned to do it all, whether it was passing,
rebounding, driving to the basket, or outside shooting.

Black fans have always been aware of Bird, even in the beginning, when they
pretended not to notice him.  At first, many blacks didn't think he was all that
good.  It was hard for them to accept that this guy could really play, that he
could do almost everything the best black players could do.  Some of these fans
resented him.  They thought he was nothing more than a media creation, a white
star produced to satisfy the white public.  Actually, Bird did everything
possible to stay away from the media.  I was the one they kept interviewing,
because I enjoyed the attention.  He never did.  Sooner or later, the black fans
came around.  They might not like Larry Bird, but they had to respect him.  It
wasn't only his talent that they noticed; it was also his attitude.  The fact
that he talked trash was even more surprising.  That's playground stuff, and
blacks weren't used to hearing it from whites.  Is he talking that stuff to me?
But he backed it up night after night, and that's what counts.  If Larry could
do a 360 dunk and laugh at you, he would.  But he can't.  So instead he hits a
three-pointer and laughs at you.

    
    Yabbut thanks Mike,
    
    Shirley was nice reading that - not because it was about Larry, but 
    because it was said by one athelete about another - that stuff always
    made my day.
    
    Kev
    

    
     M_Air, I know Michael's your man but what McHale said has a lot
    of credence. To elaborate on what Mike Heiser posted; McHale said
    that Larry could take ten shots in a game and make seven, go 6 for 6
    from the stripe, have twelve assists and 14 rebounds and then after 
    the game you say, "that guy dominated the game and he only took
    ten shots!!!" Michael's great but I don't think he's ever limited
    himself to ten shots and dominated a game since he got out of college. 
    Mike doesn't rebound as well as Larry did or pass as well as Larry 
    did. Mike's a better defender and scorer but he will not dominate a 
    game unless he takes his 15-20 shots.

    Im just going by common sense.  I like the celtics and Bird was great
    and ran his team very well but Jordan can/has and is doing the same.
    When they needed him to play point he had a few trible doubles and did
    a great job.  Think about it, the team (coach) decides what he needs
    Michael to do, weather it be point and run the show, defense and stop
    the other teams #1 guy, or score (many pts).  He says Yes and does
    it........  I just dont see bird even in his prime being put on the
    opposing teams #1 guy and shutting him down.  Bird and Magic both had
    a much better suporting cast as well....(nobody can argue that :-)..)
    
    I dont know exactly where Jordan sits in comparison to Bird/Magic in
    terms of Rebounds and Assist but I bet his #'s dont stink.... and if
    you used one of those rotisary league scoring methods that take into
    account steals, blocks, rebound, assists and pts Jordan's overall
    average accross the board is more then likely higher per game then
    bird or magic's....!!!!
    
    							MairB

Let's put it in simpler terms, Brains and Hearts Bird and Magic have
Michael has not. Physical Gifts and Instintitive creativity ball goes
to Michael. All Around better individual player - Michael, team player 
Bill Russell...

;^)