Conference hbahba::cam_sports

	I must confess that I do not see anything offensive abotu the names
	"Braves" and "Chiefs," except perhaps the dopey-looking mascot for
	the Braves and the use of the chop by the fans. However, the name
	"Redskins" is the equivalent of having a team named the "Boston
	Darkies," or other similar slur, and I can see why some people are
	upset about it.

	Roy

    I agree with Roy.  Chiefs to me is on the same level as Kings, I don't
    find that offensive.  Same with Braves, along the line of Cowboys or
    Minutemen. 
    
    If Native Americans think Indians is a bad name, then I support their 
    want to change it.  Redskins should have been changed a long time ago.
    I do feel the chop and tomahawk should be discouraged as well.  The
    Braves said they would discontinue the chop and then had Budweiser pass
    out 50K tomahawks at a game last year.  I don't see Atlanta being the
    primary focal point for this other than for the Olympics.  I think
    Augusta's entry policy would be a bigger issue for me than the Braves
    name in itself.
    

    I left out the Cleveland Indians in .0. A couple things he mentioned
    that I also forgot:
    
    - Eagle feathers and warpaint are a very important religous symbols
    to some tribes. The fact that the Redskins have them on thier helmets 
    is insulting to them.
    
    - He likened the Cleveland team "a team calling itself the Cleveland
    Negroes and having the fans wear blackface like Al Jolson."  I had
    never thought of the issue in that context before, and it has caused me
    to rethink my views on the issue.
    
    Bruce 
      

    
    >- Eagle feathers and warpaint are a very important religious symbols
    >to some tribes.  The fact that the Redskins have them on their helmets
    >is insulting to them.
    
    Reminds me of a Calvin and Hobbes strip:
    
    Miss Wormwood, I'm a fierce advocate of the separation of church and
    state.  Nevertheless, I feel the need for spiritual guidance and
    comfort as I face the day's struggles.  So I was wondering if I could
    strip down, smear myself with paste, and set fire to this little effigy
    of you in a non-denominational sort of way...
    
    On a legal standpoint, I don't think there is anything that can be
    done.  People are allowed to display this stuff any time and anywhere.
    
    From a personal view, I have mixed feelings.  I respect the tribal
    customs and beliefs, but then that conflicts with the bill of rights.
    Tough issue with no foreseeable solution.
    
    Marc
    

I'd like to know more about how the Redskins picked their name.

I mean, the Green Bay Packers were named because they were owned by the
meat packing concern, and other teams go their names in other ways.
It'd be interesting to see why "Redskins" was picked.


'saw

    
> It'd be interesting to see why "Redskins" was picked.
    
    Originated in Boston, Pilgrims' Pride and all that, no doubt...
    
    glenn
    

>> It'd be interesting to see why "Redskins" was picked.
>    
>    Originated in Boston, Pilgrims' Pride and all that, no doubt...
    
Oh, were they based in Boston first?  I'm not all that up on my NFL
history....


'Saw    

    
    
    IMO, it's because of their close proximity to politicians.
    
    get it?
    

    Lets not stop with only the Redskins, the Indians and Braves.
    
    Be sensitive (politically correct) and  demand the Boston
    Celtics and the Notre Dame Irish do likewise. 
    
    Matt
      

I can see it now.


Non-offensive PC names of the future:

	
		Boston ClockTowers
		NY Apples
		Hartford Hills
		Cincinnati Rivers
		Pittsburgh Smelts



Some things get a bit ridiculous after a while....


BTW, the planned boycott of the Olympics won't amount to much, because
there are people from all over the world who'll be coming so I doubt
there will be much of a boycott.....


Thank goodness "Wanderers" doesn't offend anyone ;^)      

    Re: politicians
    
    Irish ones or any of them?
    
    Re: PC
    
    Oxymoron of the '90s.  You'll never satisfy everyone.

    
    'saw, Jake is gonna get mad at you fer saying that Pittsburgers stink.
    And we'll have to check with TCM to see if Wanderers was taken by
    another 'team.'  8^)
    
    
    Brews

    ALso add Knickerbockers... Padre'a... Canuks... 
    
    REK

    Also add SC Trojans (on second thought, this is perhaps politically
    correct and quite acceptable with the ACT UP crowd, et.al.) and the 
    Miami Dolphins.  Dolphins, reportedly, are extremely intelligent, 
    perhaps more intelligent than us humans.   We must be sensitive 
    the potential feelings of this poor creature.
    
    
     

    ND "Fighting Irish" is not an offensive name, in its intent.
    
    Intended to honor the "fighting Irish" brigades of both the Union and
    Confederacy. At least that is what I've been told.
    
    MikeL
    

I think some of you folks really miss the point.   This isn't about
PC or anything.   

IMO, comparing it to Dolphins, etc., just shows ignorance.  

Then again, ignorance is what made this issue possible.

JD

    JD- I think you are the one missing the point.  I cringe whenever one
    individual or small groups 'speak' for an entire ethnic group or
    population.  Jesse Jackson is no more the spokesperson for African
    Americans than Bush is the spokesperson for white Americans.  Do I
    have the right, as a person of Irish desent, to insist the Celtics
    and ND change its mascot, because this is offensive to me, because
    I do represent ALL persons of Celtic desent?  I think not.
    
    Consider the Seminole Indians and the U of Florida Seminoles.  I remember
    reading where members of the tribe went of record stating they like
    being the school's mascot.  Yet this didn't stop the name-change
    wackos, from insisting a mascot change.  After all, they represent all.
    
    Consider that a mascot is selected to be a positive representation of
    an organization or a team.  Slugs, a chickens (a Gamecock is different!),
    and stiffs are not mascots.
    
    Lighten up, Pal.  If a mascot were derogatory or obviously racist, it must
    be changed.  But this is not the case.  This is a PCness issue.
    
    
    

Matt -

Read what you write.  Do the Seminole Indians represent all
Native Americans? (FWIW, in past Sports, I entered the information
regarding the Seminoles...)

I agree with you that things will be offensive -= however, this
issue has been around for a long time.

I guess its okay to be offensive to American Indians, given
the history of their interaction with Anglo-Saxons.  Take
the responses about stating that feathers and paint are 
deeply religious to some tribes.  Of course, I suspect that
for most folks, indoctrinated with the 'established religion 
party line', that these represent 'pagan-type' religion, therefore,
why take it seriously?

Redskins seems to be the ones that many American Indian groups
decry.  No matter how you spin that one, its derogatory.  

jd

>    Lighten up, Pal.  If a mascot were derogatory or obviously racist, it must
>    be changed.  But this is not the case.  This is a PCness issue.

	Oh, so *you* have decided that "Redskins" is not derogatory? I guess
	you speak for all Native Americans, right? I guess if we call a team
	the "Big-Thighed Negroes," intending this to be a positive
	reflection on the athletic prowess of our players, then that
	shouldn't offend anybody either.

	I am no fan of political correctness, but I find it unfortunate
	that ignorance and insensitivity are increasingly hiding behind the
	PC-bashing banner.

	Roy

    Interesting the attitude that Indians and Redskins are ok for a team
    name, but if OJ makes a generalization about the Irish and drinking,
    some people get offended (not aimed at you Mike L.)...
    
    Matt, if you want to protest the Celtics or Notre Dame's name, you
    DO have the right.  The Celtics don't have to change it, but if you
    convinced enough people, maybe they would.  That's what these people
    are trying to do.  No one (I don't think) believes, Jackson, Sharpton,
    et. al. speak for all African Americans.  Not even them.  But they can
    try to make people aware of the problem based on their media clout. 
    
    The Seminoles gave FSU permission to use the name.  That's not the
    same.  Again, I don't see a problem with Braves (or Warriors)
    personally, but if people want to object, that's their right.  I can
    sympathize with the Chief Knockahoma, teepee, chop routine.  If they
    had a forum where they had a section in the Boston Garden and did a
    chant when pretending to chug beers, I think people would be annoyed
    by that too.
                                                                       

�    Interesting the attitude that Indians and Redskins are ok for a team
�    name, but if OJ makes a generalization about the Irish and drinking,
�    some people get offended (not aimed at you Mike L.)...
    
    Maybe you're being facetious, Walt, but I think that one of the points
    that was made in taking OJ to task was that people are offended by the
    names Redskins and Indians, yet the drunken Irishman stereotype is
    perpetuated with nary a murmer.

Our High School team was the Tomahawks.  I suppose some could take
umbrage with that, but in Glastonbury, there is a lot of Indian
lore and heritage.

Many parts of the town (streets, areas etc) are named from the Indian
place names.  Neipsic Road (and the whole "Neipsic Hill" area), the 
Naubuc area are just a couple of examples of that.

I grew up right next to the Meshomashic State Forest, and the Shenipsit
Trail runs through not far away.

The old timers in town still refer to places by their Indian names in
some cases.

So, I suppose Tomahawks was the natural choice.  I don't think it is
intended to be deragatory to anyone....


'Saw

    It's not just the American Indian team names that are drawing the ire
    of certain groups.  There is also a push to get names related to the
    Civil War and the display of the Confederate Flag out of school sports. 
    I know an Austin, TX school changed their mascot because of
    implications of racisim associated with the team name and use of the
    Confederate Flag.

I demand that the Hartford Wanderers change their name to something less 
derogatory. As a member of the formerly nomadic people wanderschtup we are deeply
offended by perpetuating of the stereotype that we are a people with no desire 
to settle down and have a place called home. In fact we've been a non-transient
people for almost 3 years and wish to escape from the stereotype that we are
inflicted with wanderlust.

By using our name as your team nickname as traveling throughout the New England
region and sometime leaving the United States you perpetuate this stereotype.

We demand you change your name to something less offensive like the 
Hartford Nerdy Insurance Salesman.


Metz
 

I think we're talking about different levels here.  With Chiefs and Braves,
there is at least room for argument about whether those names are offensive,
whether they should be changed, etc.

But with a name like "Redskins,"  I don't think there is any doubt that it is
a racist and derogatory term.

I have heard several people express the opinion that Washington should not
have to change the name from Redskins to something else, but I have yet to
hear a logical argument that the term is not derogatory.

Anybody have such an argument?

Doug

    My point was when people were talking about Irish and drinking, they
    had an opinion that OJ was wrong.  Mike mentioned the lack of coverage.
    I think if Mike decided to go to NBC and boycott, he'd have the right
    to do so.  I wouldn't think Mike was speaking for every Irish or
    Irish-American person.
    
    Now there are some people who don't think it's a big deal about the
    name change with the Indians or the Redskins.  Either because it's
    an issue when it shouldn't be, or that it's getting coverage.  I just
    don't think it's consistent.
    
    As far as the Civil War stuff goes, No way you could convince me to go
    to Univ. of Mississippi, with the state flag and the Rebels as a team
    name.  If I went to a HS with that type of mascot and attitude
    (tradition) I'd have a problem too...
       

    I wonder if anyone who is less than 5' is upset with the NY Giants?
    
    Do the California Angels connote a religious belief, or not?
    
    Same for the San Diego Padres.
    
    Myself, I find the name "Redskins" to be potentially offensive to
    native Americans, although I don't think of it that way until I've been
    reminded that others are bothered by the term.
    
    The "Chop" doesn't seem so much offensive as ridiculous, yet Chief
    Nokahoma goes too far for my likes.
    
    Lee

>    Do the California Angels connote a religious belief, or not?
    
I might be mistaken, but didn't the Angels start out as Los Angeles Angels?
What I'm getting at is that the California part was not their first
name.  

So, I'm thinking that maybe they got Angels from being around LA (the
City of Angels)?


I could be wrong, tho...


'Saw

      I can see how REdskins can be offensive if said/taken derogitoraly. 
    
      I may get shot for this,  but red is the skin color of indians (in
    general) and alot of indians are proud of that.  IMO its offensive to
    some or all when someone says redskin in a demeaning manner, just like
    if someone said hey whitie (sp?) and etc.. for other "races". 
    
    
      This is a tough subject.
    
      Tim

    
    My high school team was the Agawam Brownies.  We never knew how we got
    the name or even what a Brownie was (very few brown people in my town) 
    although one rival did come up with a good cheer (Kick the Brownies in
    the nuts!"
    
    Brews
    

    Coming from arch rival West Springfield I wondered about them Brownies
    too (for alot of reasons).  Their mascot is an Indian, isn't it?

    And I was worried about you deleting my note, obviously you like the
    jab at Agawam, and kept it.  8^)  Yes, the mascot is an Indian.  What
    year did you graduate?
    
    Brews
    

      Brownies are the young girl scouts in these parts;^)