Conference hbahba::cam_sports

These guys be good. 

My guess is that the Sonics will make the finals of the West this year. If they
make it to the championships they have the physical ability and the defense to
win it all. However, we all know the road for the title goes through Chicago
and the Bulls whipped up on the sonics pretty good earlier this year.

I see that Christie has decided to go back to school and re-enter the
draft next year. He valued himself to highly for the Sonics. He thought that
he would step right in and contribute big minutes at 2 guard and small forward.
He would have been good to have around for 2-3 years from now when EJ and pierce 
become over the hill but he was just going to ride pine this season. I can't say
I fault Whitsit for not asking other players to renegotiate in order to pay
Christie what he thought he was worth...I can't figure out turning down 500K 
a year for any reason.

Metz

    And the Sonics immediately go out and lose to Utah....

    REK

    ...and they lost last night to the Blazers in Portland.  Neither loss
    is anything to be ashamed of.  Both are great teams, especially at
    home.  
    
    The Supes still have the best home record in the league, are fourth
    in both offense and defense, and first in point differential.  Their
    recent losses have both come when the guards (Payton and McMillan) have
    had off nights.  Payton is having a great season, but he seems to get
    a bit intimidated when going up against the good guards (Stockton,
    Porter, KJ, Price) and disappears.  He was 0-9 from the field last
    night when I turned the game off.  
    
    If the Sonics get through January with only another loss or two, look
    out.  They have a great schedule in Feb, playing patsies on the road
    and only a couple of good teams at home.  
    
    Unfortunately, judging by last night's game, the Blazers are back.
    Drexler looked almost 100% and Kersey is back.  With the Suns in the
    same division, it's gonna be tough to finish any better than third.
    
    Pete

>    The Supes still have the best home record in the league, are fourth
    
    Phoenix also has 1 loss at home.

    I guess I'll call the local paper and tell them to stop printing
    home records then.  
    
    Last I looked, the Sonics had more wins at home than the Suns.  That
    means they have a better record.  Period.  
    
    Geez, Mike, you're getting worse than M Air Babbling Brooks.
    
    Pete

Sonics played a lousy 2nd quarter last night. They came back to within 3 early
in the 4th but couldn't do much of anything down the stretch. Portland was
running well off of Sonic misses. 

I was really disappointed when Karl yanked Pierce in the early 2nd quarter when
it was very obvious that he was on fire hitting nothing but net on 4 straight
shots.

Metz

>    Last I looked, the Sonics had more wins at home than the Suns.  That
>    means they have a better record.  Period.  
    
    Yeah Pete, Sonics are 17-1, Suns are 14-1.  Seattle benefits from
    playing more home games.  Interesting that both losses are to the same
    team.
    
>    Geez, Mike, you're getting worse than M Air Babbling Brooks.
    
    Not a chance.  You can have the best home record as long as we take the
    division.  Utah will take care of your home record tonight though.
    
    Mike

    Mike, sorry, but the Sonics won by 10 over Utah last night.  They
    had a 17 point lead in the second quarter, lost most of it, and
    pulled away at the end.  Payton was 0-9 last game, 1-5 in the first
    half, then turned it on and played an excellent second half.  McKey
    and Kemp also had good games.
    
    With the Suns' loss in NY, they now have a 1 1/2 game lead.  The Supes
    are playing their next three away: Lakers, GS, and Clippers.
    
    Pete

    The only Sonic home loss was at the Dome to the Jordonaires.
    
    Is this loss in the Dome a home game?  Is the victory over the
    Cryblazers in the Dome, where both teams reportedly had equivalent
    numbers of rooters, a home victory?  Is the win in Japan versus Houston 
    a home win?  Does any of this matter?  Can Charles be bullied with the
    threat of fines?
    
    Matt da Mariner
    
    

    Re: -1
    
    All of those questions have the answer "Yes" except for the last one.
    
    Blazers are sneaking up too right behind Seattle.  Any ground lost by
    the Suns this month will be gained next month with the long homestand.  
    I'll be happy if they survive this month at .500, but I'm sure they'll be 
    over that.
    
    Mike

    One of the more interesting (perhaps plausable) trade rumors is
    Benoit, Christie & 1993 #1 Sonic choice for the rights to Jimmy
    Jackson.
    
    I like it.

    I like anything that moves Ben's fat ass out of town.  George Karl
    sure hates the guy.  He doesn't play most games.  
    
    Supes had a so-so road trip, beating the Lakers, squeaking by Golden
    State in double OT and getting humiliated by the Clippers.  That was
    the worst game the Sonics have played this year by far.  They shot
    32%, played no defense, and just looked bad.  I'm hoping it was the
    effects of the exhausting win over GS that was responsible.  
    
    The GS game was a classic.  The Sonics came back from what looked like
    certain defeat late in regulation, and again in the first OT.  I had
    taped the game, but had set the VCR for only 2 1/2 hours, so I missed
    the second OT when I watched the game Saturday morning.  Bummer. 
    Payton played a great game.  He should win the most improved award
    this year hands down.
    
    Big games at home this week: San Antonio and Portland, then on the
    patsy tour of the east.
    
    Pete

    Re: last 2
    
    Welcome to the Club!  There must be a dozen teams with offers on the
    table for Jackson.

The trade will never happen. You wanna know how the rumor got started ? I was
listening to some talk radio sports show and some guy calls up and said that
he was out bowling at Doug Christie's Uncles alley and an employee there told
him that Christie's uncle had mentioned the Benjamin, christie & #1 pick for
Jackson...Ya...that's how trade rumors get started...


I'm sure that Christie's uncle's employee has the inside scoop over the sports
reporters...My guess is that Ben will stay with the team for this year and will
get dumped before or during next year's draft for some weak 2nd round pick 
that the Supe's will use as training camp fodder...

When is King coming back? I'd like to see if the stories about his off season
improvement have a grain of truth in them...


Metz
 

    Metz, King came off the injured list yesterday.  Barros went on the 
    5-day list with a strained calf muscle.
    
    Soops long winning streak at home came to an end lasted night when
    they lost to San Antonio (113-99?).  I didn't see or listen to the
    game, but heard the Sonics shot 40% for the game.
    
    Looks like they're in their first slump of the year.  Hope it doesn't
    last long.  There's no mercy in the Pacific division with Portland
    and Phoenix playing so well.  The Sonics could find themselves with
    the third best record in the NBA and only finish third in their
    division.
    
    Pete

    ...and you have the Blazers coming to town on Saturday. 

    re -1
    
    The Supes will trash the sexually perverted, bald old men Portland.  
    The Cryblazers are a cashed check, they's history.
    
    The present, here and now teams are the concern- San Antonio and
    Phoenix.  Come playoff time, San Antonio will be even more difficult
    because the game is more physical and SA is a physcial team.
    
    
    

>    Phoenix.  Come playoff time, San Antonio will be even more difficult
>    because the game is more physical and SA is a physcial team.
    
    I don't question you, but thought you should remember that Golden State
    swept a healthy Spurs team 2 years ago in round 1.
    
    Mike

�    The Supes will trash the sexually perverted, bald old men Portland.  
    
    From what I've read, no charges will be pressed against anyone from
    Portland and there are good indications that nothing at all happened.

    
    OK, I can't hold out any longer....
    
    
    They (the girls) were with me!
    
    I remain,
    Wilt_for_Kev
    

re: .19

There you go again, confusing the issue by using facts :-)

The Crazy Met

    
    I don't think there is any doubt that something happened.  IT seems
    that the girls consented to whatever happened with the Tailchasers.
    
    brews

Yo Pete,

 What were you saying about that easy east coast road swing where the Sonics
were playing the dredges of the division and should pad their road record?

 The defense has been severly lacking the past 5 games with both the Hornets
and the Hawks scoring over 110 points. Bad news for a team who requires good
defense to feed the offense. Kemp was the only guy that showed up to play
last night. 

 Karl has to start doing something to get the defense back on track. The 
all-star break couldn't come quick enough for the Sonics about now. The only
good sign is that the Tailchasers and the Sunspots aren't playing as well as
they were at the beginning of the season. 

 Here's hoping they manage to squeak through this road trip with a few wins
and that they can heal and recharge during the break for the 2nd half of the 
season. This is a team that needs home court advantage if they are going to
get past the 2nd round. They don't have any "league recognised" superstars
tha are going to get the call on the road and we all know that means certain
exit in the Protected Basketball Association.

Metz
 

    Interesting to see how well the West Coast teams are doing on their
    Eastern swing.  I guess pro basketball in the East isn't as moribund
    as left coast people would like to believe.
    
    NAZZ

    Yeah, Metz, I was wrong about the road trip.  They finished 2-3 after
    a comeback win over Detroit last night.  
    
    These guys still don't show up to play every night.  Look at the box
    scores.  They common denominator in the losses is that McKey doesn't
    show up.  He scored 3 points in one of the losses.  If he had 1/10 of
    Barkley's intensity, he's be an all star.  When he gets motivated, the
    whole team plays much better.
    
    One move that George made that broke the team out of the slump was
    starting Nate McMillan instead of Cage.  It helps the running game and
    the defense.  I think he'll stick with this lineup for awhile.
    
    It's also becoming apparent that the Soops need a point guard. Payton
    is playing very well, but he is developing more into a scorer than a
    passer.  He only gets a handfull of assists a game.  I'd guess he's
    averaging 5 or 6.  The Sonics aren't a very good halfcourt team, and 
    that will cost them in the playoffs.  Nate runs the offense better than
    Payton, but he's playing mostly at forward these days.  
    
    Pete

    Supersonics = the Indiana Pacers of the West
    
    NAZZ

      The Nuggets

>      The Nuggets

Yup, I think so, Tim.  :^)

I caught about the last 6 minutes of this game.  Even though this was only
Denver's 3rd road win of the season, they're playing very well right now. 
They've won 8 of the last 11, including 8 in a row at home.  In their last road
game at Utah, they led most of the way before losing a close one at the end.

Issel came down with the flu and wasn't with the team last night.  

Seattle made only 6 of their 27 shots in the 4th quarter.  

Mutombo was practically unstoppable down the stretch.



Joe

    re: .28  Overrated individuals????  Pacers of the West????  What the
    heck are you talking about?  Last I looked, the Sonics had one of the
    best records in the NBA and the Pacers were below .500.  And, this is
    the first time I've ever heard the Sonics of having overrated players.
    Care to elaborate?
    
    Re: last night's game.  I can't believe that the Eunichs would
    sleepwalk though another game and lose to the pathetic (on the road, 
    2-20) Nuggets.  They've still got too many guys who don't seem to care
    whether they win or lose against the mediocre teams.  They play like
    maniacs against the Blazers, Jazz and Suns, then lose to Charlotte,
    Philly, Atlanta and Denver.  They seem content to coast into the
    playoffs.  Time for George to kick some butt again.
    
    My theory is that they finally realized they're from Seattle, and that
    they have a long tradition of professional sports ineptitude to live up
    to.
    
    Pete

    
>    Re: last night's game.  I can't believe that the Eunichs would
>    sleepwalk though another game and lose to the pathetic (on the road, 
>    2-20) Nuggets.  

Pete,
The Nuggets are a terrible road team as their record indicates, but like I
said, they're playing very well as of late.  Their recent hot streak includes
victories over Cleveland, New Jersey, and the Bulls, plus their last road game 
at Utah went right down to the wire.


Joe

    Joe,
    
    Could well be that I'm not giving the Nuggets enough credit for the W,
    but the Supes are in a horrendous slump right now.  I have tickets to
    the Utah game tonight, and I hope I don't regret going.
    
    I'm still extremely concerned about their chances in the playoffs.  On
    one hand, they are capable of playing stifling defense, which will
    serve them well.  But, the halfcourt offense is a joke.  They end up
    doing alot of one-on-one with a forced shot as the clock expires.  
    They really need a playmaker.  Or, Payton could concentrate less on
    scoring and more on passing.  They have enough scorers already.
    
    Pete

    I went.
    
    I saw.
    
    I hurled.

    Sonics better wake up fast.  

Suns will crush the Eunichs if they continue to play like they did last night.
I don't hold much hope for a sudden wakeup. Once again as McKey goes so goes the
team...It appears they've lost the outside shot and teams are packing it in 
against them. 

Benjamin did play 17 quality minutes last night. 

It's become evident that the Ics still need a playmaker, McMillen still runs 
the offense 10x better than Payton...


Metz

    Well, the Eunichs indeed woke up and beat the Suns by one on Saturday
    night, despite a woeful 8-17 performance from the FT line.
    
    Barkley hit a shot with 5 seconds left to put the Suns up, then McKey
    got a baseline layin with .4 seconds left for the W.
    
    Kemp was the stud for the Supes.  The team shot over 50%, and Payton
    even contributed 7 assists.
    
    George has wisely decided to ease up on the pressure D.  It's
    exhausting his players, and teams are preparing for it, so it's not as
    effective as it used to be.  The players are blaming it for several
    recent fourth quarter collapses.
    
    I know I said this before and was wrong, but the Sonics have several
    very winnable games coming up.  Home games in caps.  WASH, Golden
    State, Denver, Minnesota, Sacramento, GOLDEN STATE, CLEVE, CHAR, PHIL
    are the games between now and March 6.
    
    Pete

      How about them Suns!

    The Sonics cheated.  They had to kick KJ in the leg and take him out of
    the game to have a chance to win.  For the banged up Suns, Knight (who
    they really needed with KJ out), Mustaf, and one other (who I can't
    think of right now) didn't even make the trip.
    
    And the Suns still could've won if they rotated to the baseline to help
    Dumas with McKey.  Somebody blew an assignment to let him get that layup.
    
    Kemp may be great, but his defense is worse than Sir Charles'.  Barkley
    strung him up for 32+ points.
    
    Mike

    >>and one other (who I can't
    >>think of right now) didn't even make the trip.
    
    They must've *really* missed this guy, huh?
    
    Mike, have the Suns lost this year when they weren't cheated, either
    by the refs or their opponents?
    
    And, last I heard, blowing a defensive assignment still factors into
    the game.
    
    Kemp did a stellar job on Malone the game I went to last Thurs.  I
    didn't see the Suns game, so I can't comment on his D in that one.
    But, he's certainly not a defensive liablility in general.
    
    Pete 

The last 2-3 games Kemp has been assigned to the other teams power forward.
Karl used to hide Kemp on defense because of his tendency to pick up mucho 
fouls quickly and limit his offense. Kemp has now made the progression to
defensive status where he isn't hidden and the Sonics don't switch around
him like they did in the past.

He's no Michael Cooper but neither is he a Mark Eaton and he's going to 
continualy get better. 

Unlike Mr. Heiser the suns had no excuses after the game. KJ, and Barkley
all knew that Dumas blew the assignment on McKey and treated it as a learning
experience for him.

Metz

>all knew that Dumas blew the assignment on McKey and treated it as a learning
>experience for him.
    
    Yeah, he let McKey get around him, but someone still has to rotate to
    help out.  Barkley couldn't because he was isolating Kemp.
    

�    >>and one other (who I can't
�    >>think of right now) didn't even make the trip.
�    
�    They must've *really* missed this guy, huh?
    
    Yeah it was backup center Oliver Miller.  The Suns need him back and
    could've used Knight since the Sonics deliberately took KJ out.
    
>    Mike, have the Suns lost this year when they weren't cheated, either
>    by the refs or their opponents?
    
    yeah but not many since they've only lost 10 overall.  They should be
    40-6 instead of 36-10.
    
    Mike

The Globe and USA Today are reporting that the Lakers will deal Sam
Perkins to Seattle today for Benoit Benjamin and Doug Christie.  What's
the word out in Seattle?

Ken

    Ken, same out here.  They're reporting that Sonics' prez Bob Whitsitt
    said the deal would be finalized in the next couple of days.
    
    I think the deal stinks for the Supes, but why should this one be any
    different than Whitless's other deals?
    
    Perkins is certainly a solid player, but he's past his prime, and
    Christie could turn out to be an excellent player.  The Sonics are
    also now left without a center, unless Rich King develops into a 
    decent player.  
    
    The only good thing is that the Sonics unloaded Benoit's ridiculous
    salary, so they shouldn't have a replay of this year's fiasco in trying
    to sign their first round pick under the cap.
    
    Pete

Pete, as a Laker fan, I'm excited about getting Christie, but I don't
think this is a bad deal for Seattle.  You guys were in effect without
a center before this deal.  Wasn't Benoit in the doghouse (where he belongs)?
Say what you want about Perkins, but the guy can play center, and he is
an excellent low-post player in the halfcourt offense.  If the Sonics'
thinking is that they have a real chance this season, then this deal makes
some sense for them.  Come playoff time, a front line of Kemp, Perkins, and
McKey will perform much better than one that has Benjamin or Cage instead
of Perkins in the middle.

I just wish the Lakers could have dealt Perkins for Christie straight up.
I don't want Big Ben!  Incidentally, do you know how many more years he
has on his contract?

Ken

    Ken, I'm not sure how many years he has left.  I thought it was around
    a five year deal at 3M per year.  He probably has 3 years left.
    
    Ben was definitely in the doghouse.  He's not the most motivated guy
    in the world.  But, he played pretty well in the playoffs, and the
    Sonics need a big banger for the playoffs.
    
    Perkins will certainly help this year, but I'll withhold judgement
    on if he'll get them over the hump.  The real mistake was getting Ben
    in the first place.  I don't know why Whitsitt thinks he can take guys
    who don't do anything elsewhere, and they'll become studs when they 
    come here (Brad Sellers comes to mind).
    
    Pete

Supposedly Ben has been working his butt off in practice. One of the stories
in the paper mentioned that he's finally come to the conclusion that playing
30 minutes a game is no longer his birthright. If this is true then I'd rather
keep Ben and try working him into the game plan rather than trade for Perkins.

I'd rather see Karl make a concerted effort to try and use Ben and see if 
he can work him into the offense instead of trading him. Christie is gone
either way...

Kemp sure didn't get too many minutes in the all-str game yesterday did he?
As usual the coaches play their own players and the established super stars
instead of evenly distributing the minutes. 

Metz

Just heard that both teams have officially announced the deal.

Ken

    Kemp did nothing but turn the ball over and commit fouls when he was in 
    there.  3-4 fouls in his short stint isn't very good.

    I think Kemp didn't play much because of the injured thumb on his
    shooting hand.  That's why he withdrew from the farcical dunk contest.
    
    He had a few shots at spectacular offensive board/dunks, but he just
    missed every time.  
    
    Pete

Mike -

Kemp didn't commit any turnovers.  Though he did get
3 personals.

he did have a thumb injury, and with that sort of thing,
coaches usually don't play the player all that much.

JD

    The injury explains it then.  I know the box score said he had 0 TO's
    but I could have sworn he fumbled the ball a couple times.

westphal apologized to him after the game about not getting him in more. 
Kemp says that the thumb wasn't the reason he wasn't in the game just that
westphal decided to play his own & the hometown boys.

You'll notice that Clyde the glide hardly played either (3 min in 2nd half)
despite being voted in as a starter. Personally I think that the coaches 
should try to give roughly the same minutes to everybody in a meaningless
exhibition game. Granted the starters should get more but the fans should
get an opportunity to witness everybody fairly equally. 

Riley did the same thing putting Patrick ahead of Shaq for his own personal 
reasons. 

You could see that Barkley was doing his best to get Malone the ball as much
as possible to get him the MVP award. Personally I think that Dan Marjle 
did the most little things (passing, defense and good shooting) for the west
and Price was by far the key player for the east.

Either way the game was a heck of a lot more exciting than the farcial slam
dunk championship. I taped the saturday festivities and managed to fast forward
through them in around 40 minutes. What a load of filler...

Metz

    I don't doubt you on Kemp and Westphal, but Clyde asked Westy not to be put
    back in the game because he's hurting as well.  Folks up in CryBlazer
    Country were all up in arms over this, but it was Clyde's decision. 
    Afterall, Porter saw a lot of minutes.
    
    It also makes sense to put in players that are familiar with each other
    in these situations (i.e., Stockton-Malone, Majerle-Barkley, etc.).
    
    

    
    Anyone else remember when the Celtics' coaches used to get in trouble
    for playing their oppositions stars too many minutes?  This whole pt
    thing is getting ridiculous.
    
    brews

    I thought LJ got screwed over by Riley more than Shaq.  Was he injured?

    re: .56
    
    If it's better to play players that know each other well in close
    games, then why didn't Porter-Drexler play instead of Majerly-Barkley?
    Clyde and Terry have been together a lot longer than they have.;^)
    
    Glen.

It's an exhibition game put on for the fans. The coaches shouldn't care about
putting players on the floor that have played together. They should be
concerned with maximizing the number of minutes for each player.

The reason stockton & malone were out there was to appease the home town fans.
The reasons Barkley and thunder Dan were out there was because their coach was
the coach for this game.

I thought Manning played pretty well & agree that LJ also got screwed.
As usual I was extremely unimpressed with Scottie Pippen. He's the 90's answer
to James Worthy (get's carried along to super stardom by a real super star
teammate.).

Metz

    Porter can't play with Drexler if Drexler doesn't want to play...

    A good point in the paper about the Ben/Christie for Perkins trade.
    Perkins, in effect, cost the Sonics four first-round picks.  Ben
    cost the Sonics two, Ben himself, and Christie.  So, in exchange for
    six first round picks, the Sonics end up with Brad Sellers and Sam
    Perkins.  Kind of makes you wonder how Whitless got a reputation as
    a shrewd wheeler-dealer, huh?
    
    Supes survived a scare last night and beat Denver by 4 in Denver.
    They had a nice lead going into the fourth, then had one of their
    patented collapses.  Only a couple of big shots by Pierce down the
    stretch saved them.  In crunch time, they all pass the ball as soon
    as they get it, as if they want nothing to do with the play.  Then,
    the clock is at 2 seconds and someone heaves up an ugly desperation
    shot.  Pierce's at the end, over Motumbo, was a wild 20 footer that
    somehow went in.  At least Perkins should help out the halfcourt
    offense.
    
    Off the court, Payton was robbed of $60,000 in cash and jewelry at
    gunpoint last Sunday night in Oakland.  Some dude jumped him, and
    Payton tried grabbing the gun.  It went off, but didn't hit anyone.
    His big loss was a $50,000 Rolex.  I think the guy also robbed him
    of his jumper.  He tossed up about 3 airball 15 footers last night.
    
    Pete

      50K Rolex?  No watch is worth paying that kinda cash!  My $10 special
    has worked fine for 12 years!
    
      Didn't see the game last night...
    
      Tim

>    A good point in the paper about the Ben/Christie for Perkins trade.
>    Perkins, in effect, cost the Sonics four first-round picks.  Ben
>    cost the Sonics two, Ben himself, and Christie.

     The net effect would be a loss of three first-round picks, not four.

    ...and I thought the effective yield of Mustaf for Eddie Johnson was
    bad!

    re: .64, I know.  It sounds better in the paper when they use new
    math 8^).  The writer double-counted the first Ben trade.
    
    Even three first rounders for Perkins shows what an idiot Whitsitt is.
    They also squandered high picks in recent years on Rich King and
    Dana Barros, who is a good role player, but hardly worth his lofty
    draft status.
    
    The only excellent pick by Whitsitt was Kemp.  
    
    Pete

    Pete, Pete, get ahold of yourself.  Whitsett has some bum deals but
    the good ones well outnumber the dogs.  The good ones include: drafting 
    Payton, Kemp and McKee; trading for an away for Ellis; trading for
    Johnson, Pierce, Perkins, Cage, and Askew.  
    
    The Sonics are one of the top teams in the NBA. The Sonics are a well 
    balanced with respect to age and have their future draft picks.  
    
    So, who cares about how many #1s are traded away.
    
    And, to break the hearts of the Cryblzers- Portland could have had
    Jordan but they picked Big Sam Bowie instead!
    
    

Matt,

I am holding myself, but what I do when I note is none of your business 8^).

Thanks for the reminder about Cage.  He cost them two #1's, too.  So, for 
seven first rounders, they got Cage, Brad Sellers, Olden Polynice and Big
Ben.  And you call this success?  I don't give Whitsitt alot of credit for
McKey and Payton.  Picking decent players with top 10 picks isn't all that
tough.

Anyway, I went to the game last night.  What a game!  The Supes beat the hot
Cavs in OT 108-105.  McKey had two great defensive plays to seal the W.  It
was a back-and-forth game.  The Sonics had an 8 point lead late in the first,
Cleveland went on about a 19-3 run, and were up by 10 at halftime.  Then
the Sonics turned on the D and played well in the late third and early fourth
quarters, sparked by Eddie Johnson.  The Sonics had about a five point lead
with three minutes to go, then a few very questionable calls went Cleveland's
way, and Ehlo and Price hit threes to tie it up.  Cleveland got into foul
trouble in OT, Kemp hit two big FTs at the end, and the Sonics broke
Cleveland's 7 game winning streak.

And, Phoenix lost.  Now the Supes are only three games out. 

I'm still a bit concerned about the Sonics' sad halfcourt offense.  Cleveland
looked great by comparison.  Only the Sonics smothering defense late in the
game allowed them to win.  Perkins should help, but if the Sonics don't get
a decent halfcourt offense soon, it could be a short playoffs for them.  

Pete

    but Pete, the West isn't supposed to play defense!

    Yeah, I know, Mike.  When the Sonics put their minds to it, they
    can play D with the best in the East.  
    
    I put the claim about the West playing no D in the same category
    as those who say the NL is the fastball league and the AL is the
    breaking ball league.  These stereotypes get passed along and
    people start to believe them.
    
    Pete

�    I put the claim about the West playing no D in the same category
�    as those who say the NL is the fastball league and the AL is the
�    breaking ball league.  
    
    Maybe if you keep saying that one people will start believing it too.

    Which one, Mac?
    
    I don't get it.  I think people believe both are true, so your
    statement doesn't make sense.
    
    Pete

    Pete, only a few believe that the Western conference lack of defense is
    a myth, so if you keep telling us that it really is a myth a few more
    might start believing you.

    Jeff Hornacek said tonight that, outside of the Knicks, the East and
    West are equal in terms of physical play.  In the same breath, he said
    the level of defense and the running games are the same.
    
    Mike

    Don't worry, Mike.  Since the Suns and Sonics have regularly been
    spanking the Eastern teams, their fans need something to hold onto.
    
    In the last few days, the Supes have extended Shawn Kemp's contract
    through the 2001-02 season for about $27M for 7 (?) years.  The
    also extended George Karl's contract for four years for $2.5M.
    
    Pete

�    Don't worry, Mike.  Since the Suns and Sonics have regularly been
�    spanking the Eastern teams, their fans need something to hold onto.
    
    Regularly?  I thought East met West only 2 times/year for each team.

    
    And the Suns have lost to the Knicks, Bulls, and Cavs.  They must be
    talking about how the Suns beat up on Philly.

    ...and none of those teams, except for the 3pt Knick win, has played
    the Suns at full strength.  Suns still have a trip to Chicago this
    month and the Knicks are coming here.

    Let 'em wallow in self-pity, Mike.  Fack is that, with the obvious
    exception of the Bulls, that balance of power this year is in the
    West.  My list of the teams who could take it all: Phoenix, San
    Antonio, Utah, Seattle, Chicago and Cleveland.
    
    The NBA is like the NFL.  Western Conf=NFC, Eastern Conf=AFC.
    
    Pete

    I'd add New York to that list, Pete.

Let see in the NFL the NFC has won 9 straight championships. the NBA the
East 4 straight and 7 out of the last 10......Great anology there Pete...

;^)

    Mike, I meant that like the NFL, most of the teams that have a chance
    to win it all are in one conference.  I ain't talkin' about history,
    just looking at this year.
    
    Anyway, I'm just rabble-rousin'.  We Seattle fans get so few chances
    to feel superior that I got carried away 8^).
    
    Pete

    I hope your Sonics are up to another challenge, Pete.  The Suns have a
    *HUGE* soft spot coming up in their schedule and may really widen the
    gap.  Unless a there's an act of God, they'll easily have 50 wins by
    the end of the month, probably more.  Check this out:
    
    MAR-05     Sacramento                          *WIN*
    MAR-06  at Dallas              KUTP            *WIN*
    MAR-09  at Sacramento                          *WIN*
    MAR-10     Golden State        KUTP            *WIN*
    MAR-12     Dallas                              *WIN*
    MAR-13     New Jersey          ASPN            *WIN*
    MAR-17     Portland                            ??
    MAR-19     Detroit                             ??
    MAR-21     Indiana                             *WIN*
    MAR-23     New York            ASPN            ??
    MAR-24  at LA Lakers           KUTP            ??
    MAR-26     Milwaukee           ASPN            *WIN*
    MAR-28  at Philadelphia        NBC             *WIN*
    MAR-30  at Chicago             KUTP TNT        ??
    APR-02  at Boston              KUTP TNT        ??
    
    As for the East-West thing, if Chicago, New York, etc. were as
    consistent against the sub .500 teams as Phoenix is, they would be
    ranked right up there with them.  The Suns have been great this year
    against the teams they're supposed to beat as well as those that are
    over .500.
    
    Mike

�    Anyway, I'm just rabble-rousin'.  We Seattle fans get so few chances
�    to feel superior that I got carried away 8^).
    
    Don't worry, Pete, we'll carry you back before the guys in white coats
    carry you away.

    Mike, ya gotta be careful.  I was poppin' off about the Sonics gravy
    road trip in early Feb: Char, Atl, NJ, Wash, Det, then Denver at home.
    Wouldn't you know, they lost the first three games of the road trip,
    then lost to Denver at home.  I'd figured they should win at least 
    four of those games.  That slump may cost them big in home court
    advantage later.
    
    And, look what's happened to San Antonio.  Just goes to show, you never
    know when the slump's gonna hit.  The Suns have been pretty slump-free
    this year, so they may avoid it.  
    
    The Soops have a decent March schedule, too.  Home games in caps:
    CHAR, PHIL, Ind, Chi, Mil, Miami, Orl, MIAMI, SAC, Utah, Hou, PORT,
    IND, CLIP, SanAnt, Dal.  Except for the Utah through Portland games,
    and Chicago away, they should win most of the others.
    
    I don't hold out much hope of the Sonics overtaking the Suns.  And,
    I hope somebody knocks the Suns out of the playoffs before they meet
    the Sonics.  The Sonics also have bigtime problems with San Antonio,
    especially now without a real center.
    
    Pete

Mac,

 You New england fans have less to cheer about then us Seattle types. At least
we have 1 team with an outside shot at being successfull in the next 3 years
or so....

Metz

 YEAH Metz????

 Well we got Roger and you don't........

 ;^)

 mike

    >Let see in the NFL the NFC has won 9 straight championships. the NBA
    >theEast 4 straight and 7 out of the last 10......Great anology there
    
    And if it weren't for the Lakers, it would be almost 15 years since a
    Western Conf. team won the title.  Seems to me the Western Conf. fans
    were braggin' last year about the conf.
    
    brews
    
    

    ..and if it weren't for the Celtics and Bulls, the Western Conf would
    have won lots more championships.  This is beginning to get ridiculous.
    
    I don't see what happened in past years has to do with anything.  I
    was talking about where the balance of power in the NBA is RIGHT NOW.
    I was merely contending that there are more teams in the West with
    a legitimate shot at the championship than in the East.  West: Phoenix,
    Seattle, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (I don't think Houston can do it).
    East: Chicago, Cleveland and New York.  You can certainly disagree, but
    I don't see how what happened 15 years ago is relevant at all.
    
    Pete

   >> ..and if it weren't for the Celtics and Bulls, the Western Conf would
   >> have won lots more championships.  
    
      Yeah and if it weren't for all of those good NFC teams the AFC would
      have won more champeenships, too! Makes sense to me.
        
    
    >> I don't see what happened in past years has to do with anything.  I
    >> was talking about where the balance of power in the NBA is RIGHT NOW.
    >> I was merely contending that there are more teams in the West with
    >> a legitimate shot at the championship than in the East.  West: Phoenix,
    >> Seattle, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (I don't think Houston can do it).
    >> East: Chicago, Cleveland and New York.  You can certainly disagree,
    
       Pete, you honestly believe that Utah, San Antonio, Portland and
       Seattle have a legitimate shot at it all? No way. Not possible.
       Ain't gonna happen. How can you say San Antonio has a legitimate 
       shot but not Boston after Boston beat 'em like they owned 'em?
       And Portland already exposed themselves last year as unworthy while
       Seattle is at least a year away from *seriously* contending. Utah
       just don't have the horses. Cleveland, Chicago and New York are much 
       more balanced than just about any West team with the possible excep-
       tion of Phoenix. If any one but Phoenix makes the champeenship
       series, it'll be a cakewalk for the East titleist.
    
    >> I don't see how what happened 15 years ago is relevant at all.
    
       How about what happened last year?    
       
    

�    ..and if it weren't for the Celtics and Bulls, the Western Conf would
�    have won lots more championships.  
    
    You forgot Detroit.
    
�    I was merely contending that there are more teams in the West with
�    a legitimate shot at the championship than in the East.  
    
    I think that goes a long way in pointing out how mediocre the West
    really is.  It's a shame a team from the West has to go to the finals.

    Philly also has won a championship since the last non-Laker Western team 
    won.  Gives you an idea of how long the West has been weak.
    
    brews

Tommy,

Do you seriously think that the Celtics have a chance at a championship this
year? You're one seriously deluded dude if you do. They beat a spur team without
1 all-star and the other playing severly hurt..1 or 2 occasional good games
does not make for a championship team.

I think this is the first year in a long time that the top 4 west teams can
match up with the top 4 east teams. I expect a great championship series 
especially if someone from the east can knock off the Bulls. With his airness
lifting his game higher in every championship series he plays in they are the
only team from the east that I think would soundly whup whomeever the west
sends....

With the way the Sonics have been playing lately I don't think that they are
a year away from a title run. I wouldn't fancy them vs. Pheonix in a series
w/o home court advantage but neither would I be surprised if they make it
all the way to the finals this year. 

I'll reserve the coronation(sp?)  until after the next east coast road swing 
though...

Metz

    >> Do you seriously think that the Celtics have a chance at a 
    >> championship this year? 

       Nope. But I think they can beat three of the Western teams that Pete
       named in a seven game series. I don't think they can beat the three
       Eastern teams he named, though. And I don't think that's just a case
       of "eastern bias".
       

    
    
    

    Re: Chicago
    
    They're following in the footsteps of the champs before them.  Sir Air
    is getting older and banged up more often.  I'd be surprised if they
    make it to the finals unless they get a miracle like "Bird stole the
    ball!" in '87.
    
    Mike

and as a Darkhorse from the east you got like Detroit's chance if they
can get Rodman's head into it and fit in Alvin Robertson. It's a longshot
but if they get there they couls certainly beat any of the 5 teams named
by Pete. I'd include Houston from the West before I'd include Utah, San
Antonio or Portland...

fyi on lack of conference strength the bottom 4 teams in the west have 61
wins between them and the east has 83.....

>fyi on lack of conference strength the bottom 4 teams in the west have 61
>wins between them and the east has 83.....
    
    that only proves the West's top teams are better than the East's top
    teams since the conf. vs. conf. records are dead even.

Not by me it doesn't Mike. It proves that the Western Team inflate their
records against weaker opponents....

mke    

    That can't be though.  Statistics have proven that the "tough" Central 
    division is .500 (33-33) and the Atlantic .556 (35-28) against the 
    weak Midwest.
    
    If they're so weak, they should be at a .663 winning clip like the
    Pacific is vs. the Midwest.  The Pacific (especially Phoenix) is just 
    more consistent against the teams it should beat.

    
    >>Yeah and if it weren't for all of those good NFC teams the AFC would
    >>have won more champeenships, too! Makes sense to me.
        
    Tommy, you and Mac were among the last guys I thought irony and
    sarcasm would be lost on.

    >>Pete, you honestly believe that Utah, San Antonio, Portland and
    >>Seattle have a legitimate shot at it all? No way. Not possible.
    
    Until last night's loss at Chicago, Seattle has had the second best
    record in the NBA for most of the year.  I don't know how you measure
    who the strong teams are unless you look at who wins the most games.
    Do you have some other kind of magical formula?
    
   
>>fyi on lack of conference strength the bottom 4 teams in the west have 61
>>wins between them and the east has 83.....
    
    Now, there's a stat for ya!  Include the laughable Mavs in the equation
    and you're guaranteed to have the West look bad.  This is the first
    time I've ever heard of anyone looking at the bottom of the division
    to help determine conference strength, so I'll give you creativity
    points, at least.
    
    Pete

Thanks Pete. Just proves you turn a stat anyway you want to make your point.
Bottom line though you can't change who gets the trophy at the end and EAST
dominates in that aspect. Year in and Year out people say it's toughess and
Defense that seperates the EAST from the WEST.....

mike

    
    > Now, there's a stat for ya!  Include the laughable Mavs in the equation
    > and you're guaranteed to have the West look bad.  This is the first
    > time I've ever heard of anyone looking at the bottom of the division
    > to help determine conference strength, so I'll give you creativity
    > points, at least.
    
    You have to look at the bottom, too, if you're going to use wins at the
    top as a basis ("who wins the most games", as you've suggested), since 
    that's where many of those wins are coming from, due to unbalanced
    scheduling.  Bottom line is that every conference is .500 
    intra-conference, which tells you nothing; in order to compare conferences 
    or the top teams between conferences only inter-conference games between 
    the teams in question mean anything.  How have the top 4-6 teams in
    each conference fared against each other, inter-conference?  I'll bet 
    it's pretty close...
    
    glenn
    
                                      

    >> Tommy, you and Mac were among the last guys I thought irony and
    >> sarcasm would be lost on.

        I admit it. It went right over my head.
    
    >> Until last night's loss at Chicago, Seattle has had the second best
    >> record in the NBA for most of the year.  I don't know how you measure
    >> who the strong teams are unless you look at who wins the most games.
    >> Do you have some other kind of magical formula?
    
       Nothing magical about noting that the 'Sonics were held 25 points
       under their scoring avergae last night.
   
>>fyi on lack of conference strength the bottom 4 teams in the west have 61
>>wins between them and the east has 83.....
    
    Now, there's a stat for ya!  Include the laughable Mavs in the equation
    and you're guaranteed to have the West look bad.  This is the first
    time I've ever heard of anyone looking at the bottom of the division
    to help determine conference strength, so I'll give you creativity
    points, at least.
    
    Pete
    

    This discussion first got started with claims that the West is not
    defensively inferior to the East.  Can someone (Mike H., j.) supply a
    ranking of NBA teams in regards to points allowed?  That's a pretty
    good indicator of defensive strength.  I noticed in one of Mike H.'s
    rankings that 2 of 3 Eastern teams in the posting allow less than 100
    points/game while all of the Western teams listed allowed more than 100
    points/game.

    	Gotta disagree BigMac.  Points allowed is not a good indicator
    of a team's defense.  Teams that fast break and score in 4-10 seconds
    will see more points scored against them simply because the other
    team has more scoring chances.  Consequently teams that slow down
    their offense and use up the 24 second clock will give the other
    teams fewer offensive opportunities and allow fewer points.  I think
    things like field goal percentage are a better indicator of a team's
    defense.  But to date the only team I've seen from the West that
    played good playoff defense was the old Laker teams.
    
    				/Don

    Point taken, /Don.  Anybody have field goal % against numbers for each
    team as well as points allowed?
    
    Of course even if you have a good field goal %, if you aren't allowed
    to take that many shots you'll still lose.

    
    Field goal %, turnovers, and defensive rebounds are all important
    defensive stats.  I don't know how you'd begin to quantify overall team
    defense, especially since the style of play will still bias the above
    stats (if you can play good defense *and* run, you'll still give up
    more easy baskets and a higher FG% with less rebounds than a slow-down
    team, but not as many as you're getting).  The important thing is to 
    score more points than the other team, which you can't do consistently 
    without at least good defense...
    
    glenn
    

    "Remember glasshopper - a fence is only so strong as its weakest link."
    
    NAZZ

>Bottom line though you can't change who gets the trophy at the end and EAST
>dominates in that aspect. Year in and Year out people say it's toughess and
>Defense that seperates the EAST from the WEST.....
    
    Well that only works for 3 teams (Boston, Detroit, and Chicago).  Using
    that logic, the rest of the East might as well be in the West.

    
>>Bottom line though you can't change who gets the trophy at the end and EAST
>>dominates in that aspect. Year in and Year out people say it's toughess and
>>Defense that seperates the EAST from the WEST.....
    
 >   Well that only works for 3 teams (Boston, Detroit, and Chicago).  Using
 >   that logic, the rest of the East might as well be in the West.
    
    Not necessarily.  In recent years the NBA champion has had more
    trouble in the Eastern playoffs than with the Western champion in the
    Finals, no?
                                                          
    glenn
    

>    team, but not as many as you're getting).  The important thing is to 
>    score more points than the other team, which you can't do consistently 
>    without at least good defense...
    
    Well thanks Glenn for that confession.  That means that the Victory
    Margin leaders that I posted the other day is what you're looking for.
    Phoenix is sitting pretty atop that list.  The top 6 saw 3 teams from
    each conference.
    
    Mike

>    Not necessarily.  In recent years the NBA champion has had more
>    trouble in the Eastern playoffs than with the Western champion in the
>    Finals, no?
    
    So *if* this is legit, you can include 1 more team, maybe 2 tops.  I'm
    not buying it though.  The Knicks of the past few years aren't in the 
    same class as the Eastern Conf. champions.  They only tested the Bulls by 
    playing hokey_in_hightops(tm).  The Cavs, before this season, weren't 
    there either.

   <<< Note 68.110 by FRETZ::HEISER "Komm Gott, Sch�pfer, Heiliger Geist" >>>

>Bottom line though you can't change who gets the trophy at the end and EAST
>dominates in that aspect. Year in and Year out people say it's toughess and
>Defense that seperates the EAST from the WEST.....
    
>>>    Well that only works for 3 teams (Boston, Detroit, and Chicago).  Using
>>>    that logic, the rest of the East might as well be in the West.

 Certainly would atleast give them a chance to make the finals.....

 mike

    	If it was only one team from the East that won the championship
    MikeH (like the Lakers), then you could make that statement about
    disregarding the others, but...  First it was Boston, then Detriot�
    and then Chicago.  The team that dominated the East won the
    Championship.  If the Knicks or Cleveland do it this year then the
    East Is Beast argument wins hands down.  If somebody from the west
    wins the title then perhaps we're seeing a changing of the guard.
    
    				/Don

Last night was a perfect example of why I think Chicago will be the
first team to 3-peat in a long time. Without Jordan the Sonics beat the
Bulls soundly..with Jordan the Bulls beat the sonics by 5 or so in Chicago.

Jordan scored 38 points and took the game over in the 4th quarter scoring
almost at will with a variety of short jumpers and penetration moves.

The Sonics still lack a go-to guy down the stretch and a genuine playmaker.
Once Chicago slowed them down to a 1/2 court game in the final 10 minutes 
or so I knew they were toast. 

Without Jordan the Bulls are a slightly above .500 team. With him I'll
be very surprised if anybody can beat them. The're record might indicate that
they are struggling this year but Sir Mike will again elevate them to the
title...

Sonics played pretty well but I'm convinced that a great guard is worth
more than a great forward or center any day. Despite the over exposure of
Jordan he's still a pleasure to watch on the court...

Whatever happened to Chris Corchiani from NC State? Is he languishing on the
bench for some NBA team? I always thought he'd be a good playmaker in the
pros..

Metz

    Metz,
    
    I mostly agree with .118. with one notable exception. Bulls will have a
    very tough time repeating if they do not have home court advantage;
    especially if they do not have it in both the East conference finals
    and the Championship series. It is quite possible they will not have
    home court in the Champioship series and still unknown whether they
    will have the best record in the East. Knicks have been playing very
    well lately - scoring consistenetly after those 2 disastarous games.
    Also don't count the Cavs out.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

TCM you obviously weren't reading what Metz was sayin'...Any court is Michael's
court first and foremost he can and will win where ever he has too. Look at 
last year, he won the series in the first game. That performance just took all
the wind of Portland...

mike

I did read what Metz was saying and I was disagreeing with him.
Sure with Jordan Chicago is extremely potent, but Chicago finally
won it all when Jordan had a team that could supplement his contributions.
I do not think the team helps him enough on the road to assume that a
healthy Jordan guarantees another Bulls championship.


The Crazy Met

You know what happens when you assume TCM.....


 you make a p_name bet...  ;^)

Mike C.

you're not a real Bulls fan so a p_name bet with you is sort of
pointless :-)

Anyway why bet against each other we seem to do well when one of us
bets and the other selects the p_name.

The Crazy Met

    The Chicago-Seattle game was alot of fun to watch, result
    notwithstanding.  The Sonics were once again done in by their woeful
    halfcourt offense.  Once the Bulls clamped down on them in the 4th,
    the Sonics were lost.  They had one FG with about 5 minutes left.
    When McKey finally broke the drought with a short jumper, the senile
    Darrell Garretson called him for a offensive foul, which was without
    a doubt the single worst call I've seen all year.
    
    They have nobody with the ability to create a shot in crunch time.
    They can't even agree on what to do.  In the paper the next day, Eddie
    says they have to speed it up when they need a hoop.  Perkins thinks
    they have to slow it down and work for a good shot.  Pierce thinks they
    should give him the ball.  
    
    Jordan was incredible.  He was noticably limping, yet he lit it up for
    38 points in a low scoring game.  
    
    Look for Perkins to replace Cage in the starting lineup soon.  If they
    kept a stat for most missed layins and dunks, Cage would win the title
    going away.  He has absolutely no ability to put the ball in the hole.
    Combine that with his 45% FT shooting, and he's a major liability.  
    They will miss his rebounding, that's a tradeoff I'd make.
    
    Pete

Last year during crunch time they'd run isolation plays for Pierce and it was 
pretty effective. Karl told Pierce this year that he needs to get his points 
by running off of screens and in the normal flow of the offense. This has
worked well until the 4th quarter..

I think that they ought to get some plays in for Perkins isolated on the
low post and see what he can do. Isn't that what they got him for?

TCM....I don't think the Bulls need home court this year (i'm sure they'd
prefer it though). Last year they were taken by surprise by the thuggish 
tactics of the Knicks in the playoffs. You can bet they won't be surprised
this year...I still don't think that the Knicks can match up against the 
Bulls...Jordan will elevate his game and the Chicago Jordans will stop the
Knicks in 6....Assuming the knicks get that far. Cleveland just doesn't seem
to have the fire or heart to get past the Jordans...


Metz

    FYI Chris Corchiani is putting his Italian heritage to good use,
    playing in Italy.
    
    NAZZ

    The Stupors are on fire!  This past weekend, they beat Utah and
    Houston on the road without McKey (bruised thigh) and Kemp (flu.  He
    played 5 minutes against Houston).  Both wins were pretty convincing.
    The Sonics got big early leads in both games (20 points), and survived
    a fourth quarter comeback for the W.
    
    Their miserable halfcourt offense is showing signs of improvement.
    They're moving the ball real well, and Payton's shooting touch has
    returned.  The addition of Sam Perkins has helped alot.  He's the
    reason they can afford to lose McKey and Kemp and still play well.
    
    I had the opportunity to use my wife's company tickets to last week's
    game against Sacramento.  The seats were four rows from the court.  We
    were right next to "the play".  I don't know if anybody saw it on
    Sportscenter, but at the end of the first half, with a good-size lead,
    Payton passed it off the backboard to Kemp on a break.  He went for the
    monster jam, but it hit off the rim.  The crowd loved it, but Payton
    and Kemp started the second half in the doghouse, sitting on the bench.
    Seems George wasn't too enamored with the play.  He criticized them
    after the game.  Lighten up, George!  
    
    After they lost to Indy last night, the Suns are only 3 1/2 games up.
    It might be a race after all.  Supes have a pretty easy home schedule,
    and 10 of their last 16 at home.  They should beat the franchise record
    of 56 wins.
    
    Pete

Article 8076 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Portland fans not welcome at Sonics games
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 7:51:01 PST

	SEATTLE (UPI) -- The Seattle SuperSonics are turning away customers.
	Team President Bob Whitsitt says the Sonics will not schedule any
games at the Kingdome next season.
	In recent years, the Sonics have scheduled several games in the
Kingdome where capacity is more than 37,000. Capacity at Seattle Center
Coliseum, the site of most Sonics home games, is less than 15,000.
	The Kingdome games, especially those involving the Portland Trail
Blazers, attract fans from Portland, Ore., 180 miles to the south, where
Blazers games are sellouts and tickets difficult to obtain.
	Thousands of Portland fans make the 360-mile round trip to see the
Blazers play the Sonics in the Kingdome and Whitsitt said he's tired of
seeing them.
	``I just got to the point where I didn't feel interested in selling
10,000 tickets or whatever to people from Portland,'' Whitsitt said
Tuesday night during the Blazers' 108-99 victory over the Sonics in the
Kingdome.
	Portland's rabid fans have irritated Sonics officials over the years.
Portland had as many fans as Seattle in the Coliseum for a Sonics-
Blazers playoff game two years ago. The Sonics then delayed ticket sales
to the next playoff game in Seattle to limit purchases by Portland fans.
	Whitsitt said the Sonics hope to sell out most season tickets next
season so ``there won't be any tickets available'' for fans from
Portland.

My guess is thaqt they won;t be scheduling any portland games at the kingdome.
they'll probably still schedule Chicago, Boston, La and NY there...

In fact all the games will probably be in the kingdome during the '94-95 season 
because the coloseum is going to get renovated..at least that't the plan that
was supported by the Mayor...

Metz

    Last night was the most humiliating loss I've seen the SuperEunichs
    suffer in a long time.
    
    They were up by 20 with three minutes left in the 3rd against San
    Antonio, and Lucas had put in the scrubs since the Sonics were beating
    the regulars so badly.  The Stupors went into their patented fourth
    quarter slowdown mode and lost the game.
    
    It was an absolutely pathetic effort in the fourth quarter.  Payton has
    no idea of how to run the offense in crunch time.  Everybody played
    tentatively, and basically just rolled over.  
    
    The sad thing is their fourth quarter ineptitude is becoming a habit.
    They also can't deliver the knockout punch, either.  They had San
    Antonio on their heels, but quit pushing the ball and started going
    one-on-one when they got the big lead.
    
    Pete

They sure sucked wind in the 4th last night....4-15 in the 4th quarter...

I think the Eunichs are starting to realize that they lack the heart to put
teams away and the drive to finish what they start.

THe more I watch his Jeckle and Hyde imitation the more I'm convinced that 
they should try and unload McKey in the off-season.

This team needs some electro-shock therapy or they are going to lose to Utah
in the 1st round..

Metz

    The Mavs win their 8th game tonight *IN* Seattle!

    Thanks, Mike.  I was hoping that this event would pass unnoticed.
    8^).
    
    I turned the game on with two minutes left and Dallas up by 2. 
    I can't believe they lost.  Reportedly, Nate McMillan laid into
    his teammates after the game.
    
    The Eunichs are on cruise control until the playoffs, it appears.
    They can put together great games (Houston, Utah on the road, they
    crushed a hot Atlanta team last Saturday) but they just don't put
    forth any effort against teams they should beat.  They are being
    savaged on the local sports radio station.
    
    As long as they can turn it on during the playoffs, I guess I'll
    try not to let these pathetic efforts bother me too much.  The Soops
    need a Barkley type to kick butt and not put up with several players
    not even playing hard.  I think trading McKey to Dallas for a draft
    pick would send the right message.  Look what unloading Mike Schooler
    did for the Mariners.  
    
    Apparently nothing embarasses these guys.  Eddie had it right after
    the game.  He said they were now the laughingstock of the league.
    Too bad they didn't figure that out about two hours earlier.
    
    Disgustedly,
    Pete

    
    >> I was merely contending that there are more teams in the West with
    >> a legitimate shot at the championship than in the East.  West: Phoenix,
    >> Seattle, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (I don't think Houston can do it).
    >> East: Chicago, Cleveland and New York.  
    
       Anybody still believe this?
    
              
    
    

    Here's how I look at the NBA championship probabilities:
    
    Phoenix	3-1
    Chicago	7-2
    New York	4-1
    Seattle 	6-1
    Cleveland	7-1
    Houston	8-1
    
    All others	20-1 or longer
    
    NAZZ

    
    >> >> I was merely contending that there are more teams in the West with
    >> >> a legitimate shot at the championship than in the East.  West: Phoenix,
    >> >> Seattle, San Antonio, Utah, Portland (I don't think Houston can do it).
    >> >> East: Chicago, Cleveland and New York.  
    
    >>   Anybody still believe this?
    
    Well, I wrote the original, and I don't even believe it anymore.  How 
    things change in a hurry, huh?  I'd definitely have to eliminate almost
    all of the West teams on the list.  Portland, San Antonio and Utah sure
    look like long-shots now.  And, in the east, given their recent
    performance, I'd have to add the Celtics, although I think they're a
    very long shot.  
    
    Seattle has been playing poorly lately, but I think it's due to the
    fact that there is almost no chance they can move either up or down
    in the seedings for post-season.  They're trying awfully hard to move
    down, though.
    
    Barring a miracle, I think Phoenix will be the West champ, and either
    NY or Chicago will be the East representative.  The Sonics have the
    talent to contend, but they don't have the right professional attitude
    yet.  Another year of seasoning for Payton and Kemp and they might make
    a serious run.
    
    Pete     
    
    

    
     I'd tend to think that Boston is much more of a longshot than 
    Seattle. Number one because they're less talented. And number two 
    (geographical biases aside) because they play in a tougher conference. 
    I'd much rather play anyone out there in the west, except Phoenix, than 
    play Chicago, New York or Cleveland in a seven game series. Especially, 
    if you have to go through Detroit first. On the other hand, I'm not at
    all convinced that Phoenix is a lead pipe cinch to win the West. The 
    New York game showed me (and probably the rest of the NBA) they haven't 
    really got all that much heart or at least not the heart of a champion.

 True enough there Tommy but they do have the "Barkley of Seville" which
 sure enuf means NBA marketing will do everything in it's power to keep
 the Suns alive...

 you want darkhorses my picks would be Houston and Detroit. Akeem is happy
 and has a decent cast around him. He went to the finals with less in 86'.
 I see Detroit if Rodman wants to play going three guards, Rodman and whom-
 ever they want and just being murderous on teams defensively and offensively
 ....

 mike

    NBA marketing never took a shot in any game.

    You mean besides that KJ didn't start the altercation?

    Like I told JD offline, you can't realistically call someone a wimp
    that continually drives the lanes knowing he's gonna get decked by some
    7', 300lb. goon.

>    Like I told JD offline, you can't realistically call someone a wimp
>    that continually drives the lanes knowing he's gonna get decked by some
>    7', 300lb. goon.


That's not being a wimp -- it's being just plain stupid!   8^)

Mike for reference on my statement look at Michael's foul line totals in
playoffs.............

One has to feel Charlie will get no less of the same treatment out west...

mike

    KJ = the Tony Eason of basketball!  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz, KJ scores, gets fouled, or both, 90% of the time he takes it to the 
    hoop.  If Ankle_Biter Eason was that efficient, he would've led the
    Pats to victory in the '86 Super Bowl and would still be starting in
    the NFL.
    
    Mike, sorry but I'm not that paranoid to think there's a major
    conspiracy involving NBA Marketing people with zebra suits on.  Jordan
    and Charles play an aggressive style of ball and take it to the hoop
    often.  Good things happen when you do that, including drawing lots of
    fouls, scoring lots of points, etc.  Actually, that is a characteristic
    of all Dream Teamers and probably why they were selected.  They know
    how to play the game.
    
    Mike

re: Nazz' odds

Agreed on most except if Knicks get home court I might put them at 7-2
and the Bulls at 4-1.

re: Celtics - not a team anyone would want to play. But keep in mind that
after their 9 game win streak against mostly weak teams they lost to
Phoenix, Chicago, New York, New York (there was someone else in there as well).
Of the above 4 losees, 3 were in Boston. So it does not seem like Boston 
can consistenly compete with the top teams in the league even when playing
in Boston making the Celtics a long shot to even win the East. But hey stranger 
things have happened; guess thats why they play the games.

The Crazy Met

    To be fair though, they played most, if not all, of those games without
    Parish.  He'll be key in the playoffs.

    
    	I heard KJ has hired Princess(tm) as a consultant to teach
    	him how to properly give scalp massages.  :*)
    
    Claybroon

    Mikey - didn't ya see the smiley?!?!?!?
    
    BTW you Sonic fans, does anyone know who has the edge in the
    Houston-Seattle season series?  Home court could prove to be the 
    deciding factor in that series.  (That is, if the Sonics can get
    by the season-long underachieving but still scary Utah Jazz in the
    first round.)
    
    NAZZ

    Claybrron, I think the true (tm) for Isiah is The Little Princess, but
    both that and your Princess may be acceptable.
    
    NAZZ

>    Mikey - didn't ya see the smiley?!?!?!?

    re: .151
    
    Nazz, the Supes beat Houston twice in Japan to start the season, and
    beat 'em in Houston on March 21, so Seattle has the season series
    wrapped up.  I think Seattle has the edge over Utah as well, and will
    also win the season series with Phoenix if they can beat the
    Charles-less Suns on Friday in Phoenix.  Not that the last two matter
    for playoff home court advantage.
    
    George Karl was on the radio saying the Sonics will meet the Suns
    for the Western title.  He says that they are better than Houston
    and Utah.  I'd say it depends on which Sonics team shows up.  They
    are capable of either playing very, very well or horrendously (as in
    the home loss to Dallas).  George has benched Kemp and McKey until
    they play smarter and harder, respectively.  They're still getting
    minutes off the bench, but he's trying to let them know that their
    starting roles aren't guaranteed.
    
    Pete

>    George Karl was on the radio saying the Sonics will meet the Suns
>    for the Western title.  He says that they are better than Houston
>    and Utah.  I'd say it depends on which Sonics team shows up.  They
    
    He should be more careful.  That's definite bulletin board material for
    Houston and Utah.

    Mike,
    
    I think it was Eddie Johnson who said that bulletin board material was
    high school stuff.  Someone had made some remark about the Sonics and
    he laughed it off.  If it takes disparaging comments to get these guys
    motivated, they've got a problem.  But, I hear ya.  It's probably best
    for George to keep some comments to himself.  He tends to say alot of
    things publicly that surprise me.
    
    See this week's SI for a pretty good article on the Supes schizo
    team personality.
    
    Pete

    
    	Bought the paper this morning but it didn't show the score of
    last night's playoff game.  Does anyone know ?
    
    
    steve

    Re: Metz in 36.542
    
    Karl Malone leads the league in FT attempts every season and is most
    certainly protected.  I have no idea why they protect him so much (even
    more than the other Dream Teamers).

    Vince Askew could be the first ex-Albany Patroon (now moving to Haafah
    (sigh)) to win an NBA ring since Tony Campbell.

    A couple Seattle DJ's have come up with an interesting twist to an old
    theme.  They've been betting with DJ's in cities of their playoff
    opponents.  The loser has to purchase a buildboard in their city, with
    the winner's colors saying "GO {insert winner's name}!", and the losing
    DJ's have to camp out until the winner is crowned champion or elminated
    in the next round.
    
    There are some DJ's from Utah and Houston that must be rooting awfully
    hard for the Suns now.

The DJ's from Houston tried to Childs(tm) out of the deal until the station
manager heard a tape of the bet and made them get up on top of the billboard.

Those guys have to be thankful the NBA playoffs are in may-june instead of 
when they should be (march-april)

Metz

    the guys in Phoenix might not be too happy about when the playoffs
    are...

You guys up in the 120's already?

still mild 70's here....Just the way I like it...


Metz

    we've been hovering in the 95�-105� range.  

 WOW, It took what 7 or 8 years but I've finally been TM'ed alright!!!!
 thanks Metz....

 mike

      re-1 I'll diddo that!!!
    
      Tim

  Ain't no thing!  We all know Elway sucks!!! We all know he'll be in
  Canton someday.........visiting that is!!!!!!!!

  ;^)

 mike

Amazing that a team without a single individual on the 1st-2nd-3rd or whatever
NBA all-star team can make it to the conference finals. 

I guess that team concept is overrated....

BTW - how come chicago and NY have from tue-sat off and Seattle and Phoenix
have only from wed - fri off? Eastern Bias? The thought never crossed my mind.

No Prima donna's here,

 Metz

    Actually it is because NBC wants as many of the Chicao-NY games as
    possible. TNT's rating for Tuesday nights Bulls-Knicks game was the
    highest they have ever had for a basketball game. So NBC gets the
    Eastern series on Saturday and on Monday (Memorial Day).
    
    If the Lakers were in the Western conference Finals they might have
    done a Sunday game then make a Memorial Day double header. NBC let TNT
    show all of the Rockets-Sonics series.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

If'n NBC has its way, Seattle will lose to Phoenix. Either of the eastern
teams are OK but the TV people have gotta be hoping for Sir Charles to
play in the finals.

TTom

    NBC wants MVP Charles vs. Air Jordan

Here's hoping they get two TEAMS instead...

  Metz

and Phoenix and Seattle had last sunday off.....if'n they had taken care
of business as quickly as their eastern conterparts everything would be
equal...

mike
    

>and Phoenix and Seattle had last sunday off.....if'n they had taken care
>of business as quickly as their eastern conterparts everything would be
>equal...
    
    Now why doesn't this fall into your NBC conspiracy?  BTW - Phoenix did
    take care of things early, Seattle didn't.

    It doesn't have to be a jfk consipiracy.  Officials aren't dumb.  When
    they see a smart career path they are likely to take it.  I am
    sure they got the message about Larry Bird and Magic and how they were
    bringing big bucks into the nba to be shared by, among others, the
    officials.
    
    And if Phoenix - East will up ratings they might get the picture.
    
    But I am less concerned about this happening right now in nba than the
    trend my esp is sensing in ncaa basketball where bucks dominate and
    corrupt so easily

I think they already got the picture..witness the suns going to the line 
42 times last game...

the Sonics split with the Suns this weekend in seattle. We did te pay per view
thing at Pete Crouch's house friday night and watched them put on a lackluster
performance to go down 2-1. Once again the Suns were the darlings of the
officials going to the line 41 times. Once again eddie Johnson couldn't throw
a ball into the ocean going 0-6 with 4 turnovers in about 12 minutes. Once
again the sonics kept it close only to brick a few jumpers to let the Suns
have the game...Payton bricked a 12 footer (missed the rim and just got 
backboard) with about a minute left and the Sonics down by 3. That was 
pretty much the game...The Sonics played stupid by failing to go with the
mismatches. Chambers and Majerle were getting toasted whenever they tried to 
go mano-a-mano against the sonics but they stopped going to the matchups in the
4th period....

Sunday the Sonics put on a mismatch exhibition with Dumas,Ceballos and Chambers
continually getting toasted by McKey and the rest of the taller Sonics front
court. The Suns only went to the line 20+ times as the officials got the word
that it would be good for the NBA to have the suns win it in 7 at home....
The Sonics need to continue to exploit the short Dumas and Ceballos defensively.
Rumor is that the suns will try and double McKey down low tonight...look for
Perkins open on the 3 and a lot of suns illegal defenses that won't be called.
Eddie finaly started hititng a few Js. Hopefully he'll show up again tonight.

I fully expect this series to go 7. Chuck says he's not worried...He should be.
He must know that the refs won't allow the suns to lose. 

gag-o-rama onthe NBA halftime interviews during yesterdays game. The suns
including wesphal seem to think that they are in the finals already. They
continually spoke abotu who they wanted to meet in the finals and how glad they
were they had home court advantage in the finals....Don't look to far ahead...

Suns (if they make it) will get killed by whatever eastern team makes it
through...No defense, small team and no rebounding....Both eastern teams
are taller, play much better defense and will totaly outrebound the suns.

If the Sonics had a true point guard they would be up 3-1.

Metz

Metz,

How is Pete doing??

The Crazy Met

    
    They had an article on the TV deal youse have in Seattle with the
    Sonics.  Can't believe you have PPV for home playoff games.  With May
    over, at least you get to see the rest of the games for free.
     
    After watching Friday's game, I started thinking more about the
    importance of the Sonics deep bench.  Defensively, the Sonics are one
    of the biggest bunch of hackers I've seen.  I wonder if Karl, knowing
    he has a deep bench coaches this, knowing he can go 4-5 deep, and not
    get hurt too much.  If true, it's not a bad idea, especially if you get
    a team with a shallower bench caught up, and get a couple of their key
    guys in foul trouble.
    
    brews

Was that PPV for an NBC televised game?? or was it TNT?

The Crazy Met

    
    From what I saw, I think it was for the TNT games.  Given the few NBC
    games the Sonics have been involved in, it still sucks.
    
    brews

TNT is always blacked out for the home team.

The Crazy Met

    
    Yes, but usually you get a local station to pick up the broadcast if
    the game is not on NBC.  In Seattle, that local station is PPV.
    
    brews

Unless the local team has a cable contract, in which case it is not
on a local station.

The Crazy Met

>performance to go down 2-1. Once again the Suns were the darlings of the
>officials going to the line 41 times. Once again eddie Johnson couldn't throw
    
    Metz, the boxscore says total fouls for game 3 were "Total fouls--Phoenix 
    27, Seattle 29."  For game 4 it was even at 26.  Golldang, you're worse
    than me!  Now what's your excuse?  Of course with Seattle's slap-happy 
    style of "defense", I'm sure they went to the line less than all of their 
    opponents this year.
    
>Sunday the Sonics put on a mismatch exhibition with Dumas,Ceballos and Chambers
>continually getting toasted by McKey and the rest of the taller Sonics front
    
    It's about time Karl was smart enough to use his ace in the hole.  Some
    of their schemes in game 4 looked similar to what the Lakers did.  Of
    course, Karl says this goes against the team's personality and may not
    use it anymore.  What a dunce!  The Suns lethargic effort helped them
    immensely too.
    
>gag-o-rama onthe NBA halftime interviews during yesterdays game. The suns
>including wesphal seem to think that they are in the finals already. They
>continually spoke abotu who they wanted to meet in the finals and how glad they
>were they had home court advantage in the finals....Don't look to far ahead...
    
    Look to me like he was only answering Costas' questions.  Westy never
    brought up the subject and is typically a tight-lipped interviewee.
    
>If the Sonics had a true point guard they would be up 3-1.
    
    And if Phoenix didn't give Seattle game 2, the Sonics would be
    facing elimination tonight.

 I have a hard time picturing Larry, Magic, Michael or Bill characterizing
 game 4 as a free game like Chuckles was. Maybe Wilt with his lackadesical
 attitude might....Just another reason why the greatest sum of his parts
 will always be his mouth....

 mike

    
    >> Look to me like he was only answering Costas' questions. Westy 
    >> never brought up the subject and is typically a tight-lipped 
    >> interviewee.
    
       Maybe they were just "indicating" like KJ did when he said that
       he was glad that the Sonics won over Houston because they would
       better prepare the Suns for whoever came out of the East. Of
       course, now Phoenix is in another dog fight and will barely, if
       at all, get by the Sonics.
    
       

    Doesn't Sportschannel blackout TNT games the Celts are involved with
    here?
    

The PPV deal is $21.95 per home game if you order in advance and $29.95 if you
order hte day of the game. Bars have to charge $5 a head and give all the $$$
to the cable co if they want to show it. They were getting 4,000 customers for
the early round games vs. Utah so they're probably getting 6k people for
this series. 

As awful as this may be...don't laugh..It's being called a "perfect" example
of what PPV can generate in terms of revenue and more teams will be doing it
next year. Of course I think it sucks and I'll listen to the game on the
radio before I'll get it in my house but it was a social occasion and 
the cost was minimul when amortized over 12 people or so. It's even being billed
as a great way to get to know your neighbors :-)

Pete is doing well and says that you never realize how much BS goes on at DEC
until you leave it. Even if you think there is a lot of crap that goes on 
here you realize it's double what you thought after you leave...and he says
"buy Visio."

Eddie is writing a column for the local paper and said something about seattle
being in the finals not being what the NBA wants. He was "visited" by 
commish stern on the floor before game 3...

Metz

�    Doesn't Sportschannel blackout TNT games the Celts are involved with
�    here?
    
    Not in Greater Worcester.  But then again, Greater Media Cable and
    SportsChannel are fueding.

Black out rule is only in effect within 35 miles of the teams city so
Worcester is not affected.

The Crazy Met

    Wrong blackout rule, TCM.  This isn't the NFL.  The blackout rules in
    effect here are based on TV contracts.  TNT has been blacked out when
    SportsChannel was available.

Right black out rule. When I turn to TNT and the game is blacked out it
says something about a 35 mile radius. Diddo in the TV listings.

The Crazy Met

Sonics games are blacked out via PPV for a 35 mile radius. Outside you can get
it on TNT, inside and you gotta cough up the cash...Pete's frined with a 
sattelite dish says that even the dish isn't getting the game. Can they scramble
the signal from the sattelite?

Metz

Thanks Metz for confirming what I said.

The Crazy Met

�Can they scramble
�the signal from the sattelite?
    
    They sure can.  That's why my inlaws finally had to give in and get
    cable again despite having a dish.  They either had to sattelite
    subscription fees or cable subscription fees.

    That might just be the way the PPV contract reads.  I'm pretty sure
    SC had an exclusive on the Celtics games.
    
    In baseball, NESN can blackout ESPN in New England except for Sunday
    night games where ESPN has an exclusive contract.

Well the TV listings always list a blackout for the area 35 miles around Boston,
not more. The Nashua area gets the TNT feed for Celtics home games.

The Crazy Met

    
    Yabbut Worcester is more than 35 miles from Boston and it gets blacked
    out.  I understand that because Greater Media broadcasts into towns
    like Westboro and Grafton and THEY'RE borders fall within the 35 limit,
    everybody suffers.
    
    Of course there's a small possibility I could be wrong.  I have been so
    1x or 2x in the past.
    
    ;^(
    
    I remain,
    right (handed)!
    Kev
    

Worcester used to get blacked out but that was when it was a 40 mile limit.
At 35 miles we're outside the boarder and get all TNT games. Greater Media
sucks! The flap with SportsChannel is all their fault. Just like all
other monopolies they raise their rates every year. Hell they extra buck
per house that Sportschannel wanted could have easily been covered by the
annual "Hey you get Greater Media so you get to pay 2 extra bucks every
year" raise but instead they chose to line their pockets and then push
off on SportsChannel and make themselves look like good guys. Sorry guys
didn't work...    

mike

    I live in Nashua and regularly get blacked out on tnt celtic home
    games.  But pay 50 cents for the globe because I'm outside on that one.
    

    	Sometimes these blackouts can be arbitrary.  When the Celtics are
    on TNT and SportsChannel the TNT game gets blacked out and we live way
    beyond any 35 mile limit.  But our cable operator, Cablevision owns
    SportsChannel and we get it as part of a basic package (for now).  I
    don't believe Warner blacks out the TNT games even if they're on
    SportsChannel (and Warner customers have to pay for SportsChannel). 
    With the Celtics out early and no NHL contract SportsChannel has to be
    one of the most bogus stations around.  I mean how much soccer/field
    hokey/figure skating/college lacrosse can one stomach before
    upchucking?
    
    				/Don

re: Greater Media

What was that argument about? I never could get it straight.

The Crazy Met

Greater Media charges I think 6.95 a month for SportsChannel. Sportschannel
wanted Greater Media to add them to the basic Greater Media service at the
charge of about 1.00 a household. Sportschannel figures that they'll make
more money. Greater Media claims that the folks at home that don't get
SportsChannel shouldn't have it force fed to them at an extra dollar over
their present service. Claims SportsChannel is holding a gun to their
head. 2 months after the original squabble started Greater Meida raises
their rates a few bucks but doesn't increase services but SportsChannel
is the villian according to Greater media? BS!!!!!!!!!

mike

I can't figure out why the Sonics drafted Earvin Johnson yesterday. They showed
in the post season that they really need another outside threat. Somebody who
can consistantly bomb from downtown yet isn't a defensive liability (Karl
perceives Barros to be one).

I think they are looking to package Mckey and maybe cage for that shooter and
decided they needed another backup to Perkins and Rich King has had too many
injury problems to rely on for backup minutes.

At 26 years old Johnson is too old to be a serious project requiring 2-3 years
of seasoning. 

What's the word on Adonis Jordan?

Draft a Jordan and an Earvin Johnson....talk about subliminal drafting...

Metz

Metz -

I would think that with a good camp showing, Adonis Jordan could spell the end
of the Dana Barros era (if you can call it that...) in Seattle.  Jordan can
do what Barros does from 3-point range, but is a better ball handler and defender.

JD

    If Adonis is so hot, why was he available late in the second round?
    
    

    He's barely 5-10.  It'll be interesting to see who's taller, him or
    Barros!
    
    NAZZ

    The Supes make a major trade in sending Gerald Paddio and Derrick McKey 
    to the Pacers for Detlef Schrempf.  They have to be the Western
    favorite now.

    
    >>The Supes make a major trade in sending Gerald Paddio and Derrick McKey 
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Doesn't this guy's family own a furniture emporium????
    
    ya Know, 
    
    
    Paddio Furniture!!!!
    
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    JaKe
    

Mike Heiser: the Lou Holtz of the Phoenix Suns

The Crazy Met

    The West's only hope is that adding 2 new starters affects Seattle's
    cohesiveness.  Phoenix added 2 new starters last season and their
    unfamiliarity in crucial situations were exploited in the playoffs. 
    It was a far cry from the past few champions that had a nucleus playing
    together for a number of years.
    
    As for Derrick McKey, the latest issue of "Inside Sports" said it best 
    on their top 10 Most Overrated Players:  McKey is a Dow-Joneser.  25 
    points and 8 boards one night, 5 points and 1 board the next.  Detlef is 
    a much better all-around player and is consistent.
    
    As Charles said last night on the trade, "This is not news that makes
    my day.  It's bad news.  Of course, it will be a big challenge and I'm
    up to it."
    
    Mike

�    The Supes make a major trade in sending Gerald Paddio and Derrick McKey 
�    to the Pacers for Detlef Schrempf.  They have to be the Western
�    favorite now.
    
    The Worcester T&G had them as the Western favorite even before this
    move.

�    The Worcester T&G had them as the Western favorite even before this
�    move.

Well, golly, if a reliable source like the T&G says that, I'm gonna put down
a few thousand on them...

re: .218

darn =Bob= you beat me to it.

The Crazy Met

 I don't get why the T&G picking Seattle is such a hoot.

� I don't get why the T&G picking Seattle is such a hoot.

Because it's not like the the TAG will ever be confused with Street and Smith's,
Sport Magazine or even the Boston Globe...

Kinda like saying the Vincennes, Indiana Times picks the Calgary Flames to win
the Stanley Cup.

=Bob=

You got some real happy Seattlites after hearing about this trade. Detlef will
provide some much needed scoring punch. Give the Sonics another low post option
and somebody that gives 100% every game..The team will miss McKey's defense
especially in the 4th quarter where he turned it on but won;t miss his erratic
offensive production.....

Basically the Sonics have put themselves in a position to win it all and they
have publicly stated that if they don't in the next 3 years then the Perkins,
Gill and shrempf trades were bad ones....

I like all the moves they've made and I'm anxiously waiting for the start of
the regular season. 

I'd like to see at least 2nd place in the west but really hope for a 1st place
in the west  finish (flashbacks about a game 7 western conference
officiating..shuddder..shudder...) however I fully expect the NBA marketing
plan to be a Phoenix title  for Barkley so he can retire before the new crop of
stars (Shaq, Kemp, Zo, JJ, Mashburn, Weber) starts thier NIKE campaigns into
overhypedness...

Metz
 

    With a starting lineup of Perkins, Kemp, Schrempf, Payton, and Gill
    plus Pierce, McMillan, and whoever off the bench, Seattle has no
    excuses.  Talent like that should put any faux pas conspiracies to
    rest.

'Scuse me but afore we hand them the title, what're the Sonics gonna do
up the middle. What the Sonics have done is fielded a team with a bunch
of people who can play several positions but without starting a true
center and no help off the bench.

When I heard of this trade, it sounded like a Doug Moe special: lots of
offensive speed and the game plan is to sacrifice defense for the sake of
being able to score.

Other than that, you gotta love the top 8 players and their ability to
light it up.

And you gotta believe that there's no way this helps Indiana, which being
in the same division, we'all happy about that.

TTom

    Ya gotta give Mike H. credit.  He's learning from last season's
    mistakes.

    >however I fully expect the NBA marketing
    >plan to be a Phoenix title  for Barkley so he can retire before the new
    >crop of stars (Shaq, Kemp, Zo, JJ, Mashburn, Weber) starts thier NIKE 
    >campaigns into overhypedness...
    >
    >Metz
    
    
    Metz,
    	I'm not going to look it up but I seem to recall an argument
    launched during the finals last year after JD (amos) remarked about
    special privs given air jordan.  He echoed my own sentiments at the
    time.
    	Now are you officially in the NBA - Marketing talks;Integrity walks
    camp of which I seem to note some remarks by the estimable g.waugamin
    to the same effect.
    	If so could someone be kind enough to forward these sentiments 
     along to JD who made a mild objection to this kind of activity and was
    blasted.
    
    Or am I mistaken as to who's where as to the world wide hoopla
    federation (no TM) and its relation to real basketball.
    [EOB]
      

>up the middle. What the Sonics have done is fielded a team with a bunch
>of people who can play several positions but without starting a true
>center and no help off the bench.
    
    I wouldn't go that far.  Perkins may not be a true center but he ain't
    no Benoit Benjamin or Olden Polynice.  He's played enough center to be
    effective there.  Perkins even played center in Dallas and L.A.  
    
    Payton isn't a true point guard either, but still good enough that you
    have to pay attention to him.  As for no bench help, prior to this
    trade I was agreeing with you (no Eddie Johnson off the bench).  Now
    they have 2 forwards who have both won 6th Man of the Year and have
    also started (Schrempf and Pierce).  You know they won't start both.
    Pierce would be my bet for the 6th man, but it really wouldn't matter
    since they're interchangeable.  Most teams today don't go more than 8
    deep anyway.  McMillan, Cage, Askew, and Earvin Johnson will provide
    defense and rebounding off the bench.

    What I think they really lack is a premier "go to" guy like Barkley,
    Ewing, etc.  Kemp is very good, but will have to step up his game a
    notch or 2.  
    
    how am I doing Mac?
    Mike

What?

I've been a proponent of the special Privs given to the superstars theory all
along. I don't think you'll find many folks that don't agree that certain
players get away with murder on the defensive and offensive end.

I've watched the Sonics lose in the playoffs two years in a row because of the
NBA "system". First Karl Malone and then Barkley got the unofficial, official
superstar treatment vs. the Sonics. 

Although the conspiracy theories are meant as tongue in cheek commentary I
don't think you'll get any argument that the team with the "superstar" often
makes it further in the playoffs due to beneficial officiating.

Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Magic, Kareem, Bird all the big names get the benefit
of the call especially on their trademark moves. Jordan gets the 3 extra steps,
Malone gets to smash through the lane without ever drawing a charge, Barkley
get to go through anybody and never draw the charge, Magic got the extra step,
Kareem the pushoff on the sky hook and bird the up and down lean into the
defender get the call then  throw up the shot..

The same players get additional benefits on defense. The famous bird zone, the
barkley over the back rebound, Malone hacks, Jordan blocks, they all get it...

The NBA is marketing driven and bears no resemblence to the game of basketball
played on the college level (which has it's own set of problems dealing with
coaches and the NCAA).

Of course neither of them bear any resemblance to the  YMCA ball or pick up 
games in the hood either...

Metz

    	The Knickerbockers will beat either of these FauxContenda's
    (Supes/Suns), unless they start employing soccer rules in the NBA.
    
    				/Don

  >> I'm not going to look it up but I seem to recall an argument
  >> launched during the finals last year after JD (amos) remarked about
  >> special privs given air jordan.  He echoed my own sentiments at the
  >> time.
  
  >> Now are you officially in the NBA - Marketing talks;Integrity walks
  >> camp of which I seem to note some remarks by the estimable g.waugamin
  >> to the same effect.
  >> If so could someone be kind enough to forward these sentiments 
  >> along to JD who made a mild objection to this kind of activity and was
  >> blasted.
    
     I remember that "discussion" well. It was after Jordan lit the Suns
     up for 53 points. JD came in the next day and pretty much dismissed
     an incredible athletic display as a gift from the refs and the NBA's
     marketing department. It is as silly now as it was then but it was 
     vintage Jordan-bashing from JD. If fantasticball's marketing boys 
     really had as much pull as JD gave 'em credit for, a small market team 
     like Phoenix never would have been in the Finals. Instead, a down and 
     out Laker team dedicating their playoffs to Magic would've upset them
     only to lose a climatic game seven of the Finals in Chicago leaving 
     everyone emotionally drained. Of course, after being beaten about 
     the face and neck with a logic stick, JD relented somewhat last year
     and I doubt that he ever really believed that stuff in the first place.
     I think he just liked getting a rise out of people. Or at least I hope 
     he didn't really believe it.
    

>Although the conspiracy theories are meant as tongue in cheek commentary I
>don't think you'll get any argument that the team with the "superstar" often
>makes it further in the playoffs due to beneficial officiating.
>
>Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Magic, Kareem, Bird all the big names get the benefit

>     and I doubt that he ever really believed that stuff in the first place.
>     I think he just liked getting a rise out of people. Or at least I hope 
>     he didn't really believe it.

It can now be revealed that JD made a huge personal sacrifice once MrT
left.

JD saw a need, and tried to fill it.  Not that anyone could ever fill
the incredible MrT's shoes, but JD tried to provide some of the same
antagonistic noting that we all enjoyed for so many years.

In doing so, he gave up any hope of being "just plain JD".....


Uncommon Valor.....Lest we forget.


'Saw

> I think he just liked getting a rise out of people.

JD and Tommy the same people??? :-)

The Crazy Met

    TCM, I can't say since I've only met Tommy.

Re.

> they have 2 forwards who have both won 6th Man of the Year and have
> also started (Schrempf and Pierce).  You know they won't start both.
> Pierce would be my bet for the 6th man, but it really wouldn't matter
> since they're interchangeable. 

Huh?  Ricky Pierce is a shooting guard.  Schrempf is a power forward.
How are they interchangeable?  Pierce has already been bumped to the bench
by the arrival of Kendall Gill.  I still want to know who is going to cover
the opponents' small forwards.  The Sonics must be thinking that the improvement
in their offense is going to more than offset the weakening of their defense.
That remains to be seen.

Ken

Mike you have done an amazing thing; you have allowed me and Mac to actually
agree on something. You have indeed learned from last year's mistakes.

The Crazy Met

�It can now be revealed that JD made a huge personal sacrifice once MrT
�left.
    
    And boy did I get a screenful when I pointed this out while JD was
    still here.

|�It can now be revealed that JD made a huge personal sacrifice once MrT
|�left.
|    
|    And boy did I get a screenful when I pointed this out while JD was
|    still here.


Well, it's just that JD doesn't like his sacrifices to go noticed, ya know....

>Although the conspiracy theories are meant as tongue in cheek commentary I
>don't think you'll get any argument that the team with the "superstar" often
>makes it further in the playoffs due to beneficial officiating.
>
>Jordan, Malone, Barkley, Magic, Kareem, Bird all the big names get the benefit

  And here I was thinking that Jordan, Bird, Magic and Kareem made winners
  who made everyone around them better and all along it just a big galldanged 
  conspiracy.

>JD saw a need, and tried to fill it.  

 I think "tried" is the operative word here.

>Not that anyone could ever fill the incredible MrT's shoes, 

 That anyone would *want* to is what's incredible.

>Huh?  Ricky Pierce is a shooting guard.  Schrempf is a power forward.
>How are they interchangeable?  Pierce has already been bumped to the bench

    I could've sworn they were both small forwards.
    

>Mike you have done an amazing thing; you have allowed me and Mac to actually
>agree on something. You have indeed learned from last year's mistakes.
    
    ...and you thought I was pulling a LouHoltz(tm).  I should get NOTY for
    getting you 2 to finally agree.

Mike, you are pulling a LouHoltz(tm), that means you learned from your mistakes.

The Crazy Met

�    ...and you thought I was pulling a LouHoltz(tm).  
    
    We didn't say you learned well, just that you learned...

    Even Charles mentioned how disturbed he was about the trade and said it
    was gonna be a real challenge.

�                      -< no LouHoltzing, this is reality >-
�
�    Even Charles mentioned how disturbed he was about the trade and said it
�    was gonna be a real challenge.
    
    Yabbut, you've been Holtzing since July.

Pierce is a shooting guard that can play small forward in a pinch. He's more 
of a 1 on 1 clear out type player although he started getting his shots more in
the flow of the offense last year after Karl told him that they wouldn't be
running many isolation plays for him because it slowed down the rest of the
team.

The sonics are one of the best defensive teams in the NBA but lacked an pure
shooter last year when Barros went into the can. This team doesn;t really fit
into any mold as Mike Heiser said...

The best 3 pt shooter is probably the starting center.
The point guard is a better defender and shooter than he is a creator.
The shooting guard has never shown the ability to light it up from the outside.
The power forward is great when he goes to the hoop but is still learning how
to back  guys into the basket and the small forward is a great 6th man.

However the team defense last year generated a lot of turnovers which led to
easy baskets and I expect more of the same this year. The two guards will
harass any and everybody and steal a bunch..

My guess is that Shrempf will get the easy defensive assignment and Kemp (who
showed the ability to stay out of foul trouble last season..coincedental to his
becoming an all-star???) will get the tough defensive assignment.

Look for a lot of games where teams pack the paint and dare the supes to hit
from outside....Look for a lot of fun with perkins going outside to draw the
oppositions center, Gill and Payton driving to the hoop,  kemp getting feeds
from the driving guards and a new little drop step jumper and Detlef picking up
a lot of junk points...

This is going to be a fun team to watch....

Metz
  

>shooter last year when Barros went into the can. This team doesn;t really fit
>into any mold as Mike Heiser said...
    
    Thanks Metz.  Maybe the rest of the armchairs should listen up.

    Perhaps if Barros is cut the sonics will resign him;
    
    Will Sonics gel with European player - albeit of dreamteam quality
    
    

The Dover, NH "Fosters Gazette" has let me down again. How did the Sonics come
by Kendall Gill? What's the lowdown on his game?

Who made the Sonics' final roster?

Thanks,

Brian

    This deal has me wondering if Detlef's priority was just to get back to
    Washington.  I know Phoenix could've offered Indiana more than they got
    for Detlef.

    Detlef went to school at UDub, and was building out house out that way.

    >    Detlef went to school at UDub, and was building out house out that way.
    
    Why does he have to go to Seattle to use the can?  Is unloading in the
    Northwest a religious experience or something?

re .254

	good one there Mike! hahahahahhaha!

    ITs bigger then you think, its not just the marketing of the NBA or the
    refs all the owner are in on it as well.  Jordan really stinks at
    basketball, the refs on the college level were paid off to give him
    some padded stats for his college carear and then in the Finals that
    last shot for the NCAA Title actually missed but they were on a 1 min
    delay so they had him shot it again and everyone in the stands were
    paid off to not talk.  The First Gold Medal, USA lost but the NBA
    stepped in and bought off the other team to give up the gold and take
    the silver.  What a travesty to world sports when the Greedy Owners of
    the NBA can control all these individuals.  From the 3rd year in the
    league, they decided to give jordan a bigger rim for all his games and
    hid tramps and springs under the floors and then swithced them at 1/2
    time to give him more scoring.. It was tough going for awile the NBA
    had a hard time convincing Houston and Portland to pass on Jordan
    becuase they felt the Bull on the Chicago Bulls junk would sell better
    then houston or portlands logo's but hey its all for money right.
    
    I wonder what they have up there sleve's now in convincing him to
    retire.  Or even worse I wonder if they had his father bumped off
    and then said more would be lost if he didnt retire.. Man the NBA,
    the Mob of the 21st century...
    
    							MairB

Mike, what could the Suns have offered in the way of a forward 
that would have been better than McKey?  Dumas and a dozen crack
viles?

Ken

>Mike, what could the Suns have offered in the way of a forward 
>that would have been better than McKey?  Dumas and a dozen crack
>viles?
    
    McKey is far too overrated.  Phoenix would've made up for a lesser
    forward with a much better guard than Paddio.

    Mike, please answer the question.
    Who would the Puns offered for Detlef?
    
    REK

    Lots of bodies (Mustaf, Knight) and/or the rights to Dumas.  Mustaf has
    proven to be just as consistent as "Dow Jones" McKey when he gets the
    PT.  Detlef is 31 and isn't worth giving up too much talent for.  McKey is
    only 27 and Paddio was a throw-in.  It was basically a straight up
    deal.

    HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Right! Mike you are so full of crap it ridicules!
    The rights to Dumas, hell, nobody knows if he is coming back at all.
    Mustaf? Theres a real  player.. NOT  Knight? he is nothing but a bench
    warmer for a mediocre team....
    
    REK

    Mike.. A druggie, a person investagated for murder and Knight?
    
    WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

    >    HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Right! Mike you are so full of crap it ridicules!
    
    REK, I didn't ridicule you.
    
    Dumas will be back by the first of the year.  He's already better than
    McKey.  At least with someone being investigated for murder, he shows a
    lot more spunk than "Dow Jones" McKey.

REK  right Mike...none of those players compares to Mckey who although
inconsistant on offense plays great defense and provides matchup problems for
almost everybody and is fully capable of taking agame over at both ends on a
given night...

McKey was the starting forward last year for the western division runner ups.
Phoenix would have to have given up more than a bench player for Detlef...

Don't fall to Red Sox disease and overvalue the players on your squad compared
to what they are actually worth...

Metz

>Don't fall to Red Sox disease and overvalue the players on your squad compared
>to what they are actually worth...
    
    I'm not.  I'm going by the fact that the Pacers have been trying to get
    Negele Knight since his rookie year.  They just haven't offered the
    right deal to get him.

> Don't fall to Red Sox disease and overvalue the players on your squad compared
> to what they are actually worth...
    
    Naw, if these teams were afflicted with Red Sox disease they would have
    traded a Shawn Kemp or Dan Majerle a couple of years ago to make room 
    for a McKey or Dumas...
    
    glenn
    

> Don't fall to Red Sox disease

well with Mike that would not be a surprise since he does hail from MA. :-)

It would have been very unusual for 2 contenders in the same division or
even conference to make that kind of a trade.

The Crazy Met

what are you talking about TCM? Maike said that the pacers could have gotten
more from the pro droods than they got from Seattle and then offered up some
meaningless players...

Nobody was talking about trading some droods for some faster than the speed of 
 sound aircraft players....


Metz

Who still has the feeling that some Bostonians think that they can trade Marty
Barrett for Juan Gonzalez and make the Rangers throw  in a #3 pitcher...:-)

    I would have traded Majerle for Detlef Shremp in an instant but not
    necessarily for McKey.
    
    McKey would be a nice pickup for the celtics, but I don't know who
    celtics could trade - they seem to be a whole which is much better than
    the parts

re: .268

yeah, thats the ticket. never mind.

The Crazy Met

    Sounds like the package offered for Rodman.  Maybe that should tell
    Phoenix something if they couldn't get either for those players...

    Not true Walt.  They were all set to announce the Rodman deal before
    Lucas blew the whistle on Dumas.

    Not back in February...
    

    February is irrelevant, especially since Detroit balked that time.  It
    was a done deal in August.

then how come it wasn't done?

  The Boston Globe has followed the Worcester Telegram & Gazette's lead
 with all three basketball writers picking the Sonics to win the West. The
 Globe writers took it a step further and picked Seattle to win it all.

Hmm...

I don't think this team has a prayer of winning it all. They've got no bonafide
superstar, no 3 point shooter, A center who doesn't play with his back to the
basket, a coach that could blow up at any time, a point guard that averages
less than 4 assists per game, a power forward that didn't play for dean smith,
a slow hometown white guy with no vertical leap trying to guard those speedy
forwards, a old 6th man and nobody...repeat..NOBODY with a national sneaker
campaign...

I don't even think they have a player doing converse ads.

Nope, no Sir, No way this team can even hope to make the playoffs...I'm looking
for a lottery pick next year...

10,000 - 1  shot they are....


Metz


 

Metz,

How 'bout keep a close eye on that Kendall Gill fella for us. The request
is to watch on for when he and/or his agent start to cry.

And they'll 1-2 you, so be careful. Rumors and innuendos will surface and
Tellem will say that's what Gill wants and Gill will say that's what
Tellem wants.

An lo, the day someone signs a contract better'n his.

TTom

Sure thing...I'll tell ya  right now though that Karl will just sit his ass on
the bench if he starts to whine and he'll be immediate trade meat and he won;t
get the "opportunity" to request where he gets traded to either.

The spin here is that the big bad media made up much of the stuff Gill was
quoted as saying and Kendall better get used to playing behind the big guns of
Kemp, Perkins and Shrempf. He's got more established stars in fornt of him here
than he did in Charlotte...


Metz

Watch out about that trade scenario. Gill and Tellem are big on having
clauses about where and when he can be traded.

Also, since Gill has left Charlotte, the full extent of what a pain he
was for Charlotte is coming out. LJ, at the press conference announcing
his 84 mil contract, made sure that everyone knew how glad he was that
Gill was gone. Zo has mentioned it as have the coach, prez and owner.
Before he left we were left with just the media reports but now it looks
like the media didn't know the half of it.

Again, it's probably all in the contract.

TTom

    I am trying to be objective about gill and I am skeptical about
    salaries and internal friction and media attitudes and depictions.
    
    The key is going to be what gill does on the floor and possibly what ss
    do as a team with gill (and complicating things,with shremp sans mckey)
    this season and most importantly in playoffs.  And furthur complication
    is lack of mj for whom a gill matchup may be his raison d'etre.
    
    To make it simple, seattle making it to finals with gill will justify
    his prior act to a great degree.
    
    And I must also say the whole gill this/that thing is and has been the
    most tiresome story in sports and sprots and I'm not helping
    
    

    RE>68.251  Wow, nobody answered your questions.
    
    How ya doing Brian?
    
    Anyway, the Supes got Gill by trading Eddie Johnson, Dana Barros and
    I think someone else but am not sure.
    
    I believe the final roster is:
    Kemp
    Gill
    Schrempf
    King
    Sheffler (yep, another year of "Shef, Shef, Shef", in trash time)
    Johnson
    McMillian
    Pierce
    Perkins
    Payton
    Cage
    ? can't remember #12, anyone out there remember/know?   
    
    Ciao
    Steve
    
    
    
    

    Why didn't Pierce play on Saturday night?

    Isn't the 12th guy former #1 draft choice/stiff Rich King from that
    basketball hotbed, Nebraska?
    
    NAZZ

Pierce has a sore ankle. He should be back tonight....

Sonics crushed the lakers who had just defeated the Suns so it's obvious who
the best in the west is :-)

Lots of good team passing from the airplanes in their opener. Kemp was a
monster and Gill played quite well. Detlef was finding everybody from the
new position called point forward and Payton even had 8 assists...

I duno who the 12th man is because the Sonics played "you're injured" like
every other team in the league to  keep 13 to 14 players on a 12 man squad.

Metz

>Sonics crushed the lakers who had just defeated the Suns so it's obvious who
>the best in the west is :-)

    According to rosters posted somewhere on the net, Sonics 12th man is
    Vince Askew, a SG/SF, 6-6, 235, from Memphis State.
    
    - Jim

Oh Yeah...another Ex albany Patroon I think.....

Metz

    Supe win 101-100 over the third best team in the west lasted night..
    
    REK

    Nazz is right too; Chris King is on IR, Rich King and Askew are active.
    
    - Jim

    The latest "Inside Sports" (i.e., Doug Collins) still has Phoenix
    winning the Pacific, but they admit the grip is strained.  "One slip
    by the Suns and Seattle will be playing in the finals," says Doug.

    Askew was a Patroon.
    
    Why was the deal irrelevant Mike?  Because Detriot(tm) was wary of
    Dumas and the drug thing or because the Suns didn't get it done in the
    playoffs?
    

    Detroit wasn't wary of anything.  They were trying to take the Suns
    lunch money and leave their pants down around their ankles.
    
    Going by the rumor mill, Phoenix may still get Rodman for Dumas
    (straight up).  Knight's performance will be a key.

After reading the latest SI article on Rodman I wouldn't touch him with a 10
foot pole if I was a GM. 

The guy is a timebomb and methinks the fuse is getting shorter all the time....

Metz

    I didn't see it.  

Despite the fact that it was burning his scalp when he had it done? Or the fact
that he's gotten 10 tattoos lately simply because they hurt. 

Rodman comes off as an unstable prima donna in the article that thinks just
because he puts out on the court that he can miss practice, chastise his
teammates and act like a 2 year old because he's "unstable."

With the number of primma donnas already on the Suns he might just fit in but
I'd wager a healthy sum that unless he turns it around he'll be out of the NBA
in 2 years. 

BTW - I was wondering if Patrick or Hakeem has spoken out on all the latest
articles that say the NBA has no older superstars except for Charles? I
certainly rank those two guys as the elite...I guess they don't have enough
shoooooe money behind them to qualify as superstars...

Metz

>BTW - I was wondering if Patrick or Hakeem has spoken out on all the latest
>articles that say the NBA has no older superstars except for Charles? I
>certainly rank those two guys as the elite...I guess they don't have enough
>shoooooe money behind them to qualify as superstars...
    
    ...and aren't as popular with the group of people that count: THE MEDIA!
    
    As for Rodman, I'd take the chance if I knew it improved my chances of
    a ring before Barkley retires.  Like most teams in the West, there's a
    window of opportunity that everyone is trying to grab NOW.

It's all marketing. Anybody can be made pop'lar.

TTom

    Sonics ripped up the Nuggets last night behind Perkins' 7 consecutive
    three pointers.  (Ties record set by Porter)  The Final score was
    118-86.  
    
    Regarding Rodman and the expectation that he is going to explode, I
    guess you could say he did last night by collecting "29" rebounds.  The
    guy is a machine.  He even had 13 points in the effort.
    
    Steve

>    Sonics ripped up the Nuggets last night behind Perkins' 7 consecutive
>    three pointers.  (Ties record set by Porter)  The Final score was
>    118-86.  
    
    I didn't think the record for consecutive trey's would be that low.  
    Majerle had 8 in last night's game, but I don't think they were consecutive.

ESPN had a "Did you know" that said the record for missed 3 point
attempts belongs to Isiah Thomas who went 0 fer 9 lasted year.

I thought someone made 8 in a playoff game, recently?

TTom

    >I thought someone made 8 in a playoff game, recently?
    
    Majerle did that in the Spring against the Supes and it is now the
    playoff record.

    I think the record is most 3 pointers without a miss, he was a
    perfect 7-7, many have hit 8+ but they also had some misses in
    there as well....
    							MaB

>    perfect 7-7, many have hit 8+ but they also had some misses in
>    there as well....
    
    no the regular season record for total treys is 8.  Majerle had a shot
    at the record last night in the last minute of the game, but the Clips
    mauled him everytime he touched the ball.

The  sonics remained unbeaten last night whupping up on those perennial good
but no cigar Cleveland Cavaliers. The Sonics defense was again tremendous with
many blocks and Cleveland turning the ball over time after time in the 1st
quarter...

Brad "son of Vlad" disappeared as Perkins fronted him the entire game with
backside help and the sonics doubled down on Price at  every opportunity.

The sonics continue to play unselfish ball with passes zinging around...

For the Sonics rabid there is a Sonics internet mailing list.  

To join the list just send a request to [email protected], to send
mail to the list send it to [email protected].


Metz

>For the Sonics rabid there is a Sonics internet mailing list.  
>
>To join the list just send a request to [email protected], to send
>mail to the list send it to [email protected].
    
    what a waste of bandwidth!

    When was the last time a team was this successful and didn't have a
    player in the top 25 scoring leaders?

    And they don't have anyone in the top assists category either
    
    But are one of the top teams in assists and scoring

DEFENSE....

Mucho steals again last night...and thanks to the Charlotte folks for Kendell
Gill. He's fit in perfectly here with his ball hawking and slashes to the hoop
and willingness to sacrifice a few minutes for the good of the team...

Kemp's got a new reebok  commercial that I like and hate at the same time..It's
good because it  shows him overcoming the odds but I also think it sends a
subtle message that if Shawn Kemp  didn't need to go  to school to make it  in
the NBA why should I?

Metz

You're Welcome.

Gill played well for Charlotte most of the time. And he even kept his
mouth shut for a couple of years.

There's never been much of a_issue as to whether Gill could play. He has
a lot of talent and is clearly capable.

He has two problems, though, that haven't been resolved. The first is a
bad head case. The second is his agent who's only slightly less a head
case.

Look for things to go well with Gill in Seattle for a while. In a year or
two, Gill will wake up and realize he coulda been making a lot more money
in Charlotte and then you'll be able to appreciate the full package.

TTom

In 2 years the time will have passed for these sonics and the team will be
looking to rebuild or be looking to get a few younger players on the team...In
the meantime I'll watch them march toward (hopefully) an NBA championship...

Metz

    I notice that early fan balloting has been tabulated for the west all-
    stars and, of the sonics, Gill is number 3 in the guard race with Kemp
    and Perkins (and Payton) at #8(in their respective races).
    
    	Of course with Antoine Carr number 2 at forward and Chris Webber
    leading Olajawon and the rest of the centers this early result is not
    to be taken too seriously.
    
    
    bill

    what's a real shame is Karl Malone being one of the best in the game
    still and being 10th on the voter's tallies.

maybe people are getting sick of his drive the lane like a bull in a china shop
and get the foul routine....

More likely is the fact that most of the teams haven't turned in their ballots
yet...

Metz

    Also, the early balloting results were tabulated and announced
    *BEFORE* all NBA teams submitted their ballots (which they had
    been accumulating for a few weeks).
    
    Obviously, Seattle and San Antonio got their ballots in early!
    
    Pat

    Seattle down by 28 going into the fourth last night?
    
    
    Spud

    Did Seattle lose?  doesn't matter much, Phoenix did too.

    and they played without Drexler and Porter too!

    Did I also hear Houston lost to Orlando ?  Wow the big 3 in the
    west all went down on the same night ?...
    
    							Mab

    Houston lost to Orlando.
    
    Portland didn't have Dudley either.
    

yup..the eunics had a horrible game last night...it happens...I knew the kis of
death was upon them when the paper started writing a bunch of articles about
the demise of the blazers and how they would just be a bump in the road to  
continued sonic success....

Never count any team out in the NBA especially playing at home....

Metz

From the Arizona Republic:

"When I first got here (All-Star Game Weekend), I went into an
NBA room and he (George Karl) was there", KJ said. "We ended up
being the only ones in the room. He came over and started apologizing.
He said he didn't mean all that (calling KJ a "queen, crybaby" and
saying "F*** him"). He said it was taken out of context and he was 
doing it for his team...

I tried to explain to him that sometimes I make comments about opposing
players out of frustration and anger," Karl said. "I couldn't find a way
to stop him. He was kicking our butt and I was ready to try ANYTHING.
My team couldn't stop him, and he was complaining, that we were hitting
him. I didn't think we were hitting him hard enough. He was trying to
get some call, and I was trying to protect my players.

But I love the guy. I loved him when he was at University Of
California."

Why they'll get there
----------------------
Depth, versatility, and talent.  Kendall Gill and Detlef Schrempf have
noticeably improved the club's ball movement and high-risk defense.  In
addition, the Sonics have 9 players who average 20 or more minutes per game, so
they should be healthy and well-rested for the postseason grind.

Why they won't
--------------
The rap against the Sonics has been that their half-court game is not
championship caliber.  What's more, teams that handle the ball well and employ
motion offenses have fared well against Seattle's scrambling defense.

X-factor
--------
Conventional wisdom says an NBA champion must have a superstar it can hang its
hat on.  Seattle's roster is full of very good players - Gill, Schrempf, Shawn
Kemp, Ricky Pierce, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins - but no one in the class of
Charles Barkley.

Player on the spot
------------------
Pierce.  As the club's best half-court player, he must be at or near the top of
his game.

    
re: Note 68.326     

>>hat on.  Seattle's roster is full of very good players - Gill, Schrempf, Shawn
>>Kemp, Ricky Pierce, Gary Payton, Sam Perkins - but no one in the class of
>>Charles Barkley.

 Obviously, this was written before the season started, like maybe June '93.

    this expert stuff, collins, walton, et.al., is a bunch
    of mumbo jumbo hog wash garbage used to fill air time and print space
    
    

    Local news is reporting the little tiff between Kemp and Karl.  Not a
    good time to have conflict on your team.

>    Local news is reporting the little tiff between Kemp and Karl.  Not a

    Kendall Gill sure sounded like a whining cry-baby after the elimination.
    
    Doug Collin's was right.  Seattle's lack of a goto-guy (i.e., team
    leader/superstar) was painfully obvious, as was their inefficient
    halfcourt game.  Nobody wanted the ball in crunchtime against the
    Nuggets.  Kemp needs to become a floor leader and take the ball in
    crunchtime, if he wants to join the elite of the NBA.
    
    Seattle will improve with their lottery pick, but they'll still win 60
    games and lack a goto-guy.
    
    Sir Charles was absolutely prophetic on April 10th (after the Suns beat
    Seattle) when asked about playing Seattle for the Western Championship:
    "We'll be there, if they make it."
    
    Mike

    So what's the attitude like in Seattle now?  
    
    The Phoenix-Houston series is now HUGE.  The winner will have HCA for
    the Western Conf. Finals.  It appears that this series winner, and the
    NY-Chicago winner, will meet in the Finals.

> and the NY-Chicago winner, will meet in the Finals.

probably. but don't forget Atlanta in the East. They had their scare, and they 
also have HC through at least the Conference finals.

The Crazy Met

Hey Craze, get off of my Hawks bandwagon.

I don't need the kinda heat your predictions bring.f

TTom

    Hawks are too soft for the Knicks.  

    The Hawks only beat them once this year, didn't they?

�    The Hawks only beat them once this year, didn't they?
    
    Yeah, and the Knicks only beat the Nets once this year.  What's your
    point?

Hawks were 3-2 against the Knicks this year. Hawks won 2 at MSG, 1 at home.
Knicks won 1 in Atlanta and 1 in MSG.

The Crazy Met

Tell 'em crazy.

I knew that the Hawks had won the series so I guess that MikeH'll have to
re-cipher thangs.

But then again, facks aint always that important...

TTom

> But then again, facks aint always that important...

that's right buster which is why the Hawks don't make it to the finals.

The Crazy Met

    TCM has it tough since he picked the Spurs to win the West.

    >So what's the attitude like in Seattle now?
    
    Everybody is starting to get over a really bad weekend.  First the UofW
    Huskies get more penalties added on on top of the Pac-10 penalties
    'cause of our bad guy footballers.  Then the Sonics decide they don't
    want to have a championship this year.
    
    Hey at least we have the Mariners...heehee,hawhaw,heehaw,heehee what a
    joke.  Maybe they can take the west, yea ????
    
    It really would be nice if that Charlotte pick turns out to be #1.
    
    >>>Hello big man in the middle????
    
    I'm going fishing
    Ciao
    Steve

      Maybe the SeaChickens will do something (-)

    Looks to me like it was the Sports Illustrated jinx that got the
    Sonics!  Putting Gary Payton on the cover lasted week was the KOD
    fer sure!
    
    NAZZ

    Re>-1
    
    That has got to be it!  There is absolutely no other reason that the
    Sonics lost to Denver. ;*)
    
    Nah,  the Sonics blew it all on there own.  Denver outplayed them the
    last three games, big time!
    
    RE> the Peacocks
    
    They might make a dent in the AFC West, but there are too many good
    teams in that division that they have to play twice each.  They need to
    get a speed receiver also.  Hopefully they can get Blades' contract
    inroned out before pre-season.
    
    Steve

From: [email protected] (AP)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.local.washington
Subject: Sonics Sign Pierce For 1 Year

	SEATTLE (AP) -- The Seattle SuperSonics announced Monday that
Ricky Pierce had signed a one-year contract extension in January.
	Terms of the contract were not announced. But The Seattle Times
quoted an unidentified source as saying it is worth $2.4 million
for Pierce, 34, who had been scheduled to become an unrestricted
free agent on July 1.
	Sonics president Bob Whitsitt said Monday that negotiations
began in January with Pierce and center Michael Cage, but Cage
turned down a multi-year deal.
	Whitsitt added that Pierce and Cage, along with the team
management, agreed not to disclose their contract situations until
the end of the season.
	Pierce was the team's leading scorer the previous two seasons,
but missed 28 games during the regular season just ended, primarily
because of a bone spur in his left foot.
	Pierce scored two points in eight minutes against the Denver
Nuggets during a 98-94 overtime loss Saturday that ended Seattle's
season. The Sonics had the best regular-season record in the NBA.

Now the the Sonics are in the off season, what's the word on re-signing
or otherwise retaining Detlef?

TTom

    Interesting stuff coming out now...  A Seattle reporter was on local
    radio today and stated that the Sonics lost the series in game 2 during
    halftime.  Pierce and Payton had to be separated.  They were fighting
    because neither would pass the ball to the other.  After game 4, Kemp
    and Payton went to Karl and demanded more PT.  This isn't what a
    playoff team should be focused on.  Seattle whined for respect all
    season, and now they'll never get it.
    
    Mike

Whining about playing time? Not passing the ball?

Gosh, this sounds like the Kendall Gill refrain we heard lasted year in
Charlotte.

Nate McMillan should slap 'em all.

TTom

    I guess the Pony Express hit Phoenix again... I heard about the 
    Payton-Pierce thing Friday or Saturday and I missed game 5...
    

    That Pony is working both ways since I posted on the subject last week.

    Bob Whitsitt has submitted a written request to the Supes' owner to be
    released from his contract.  Rumor has it he wants the new GM position
    with Vancouver.
    
    In other news, Chuck Daly has just stepped down as the Nets coach. 
    He's rumored to be going to Toronto.

> Chuck Daly has just stepped down as the Nets coach. 
> He's rumored to be going to Toronto.

after Toronto got Thomas I thought this might happen. Daly as GM and
coach or just coach?

The Crazy Met

    Daly can't coach with any other team next year because of a clause in
    his New Jersey contract.  He could only be a GM, but I thought that is
    what the Princess is in Toronto.  I look for Daly to come to the
    Blazers as GM!
    
    Maybe wishfull thinking,
    
    GLen.

Thomas is VP of Basketball Operations for Toronto, not GM.

The Crazy Met

    The Raptors don't play nexted year so it's probably GM/Coach.
    

    re> Whitsitt submitting resignation
    
    Tis true,  The current GM of the year has submitted his resignation. 
    The paper here in Seattle says he wants to persue business interests
    outside of basketball with his wife.
    
    I for one will miss him...he was a hell of a wheeler/dealer.  Hopefully
    he will stick around until after the draft.  He always seemed to pull a
    big one around that time.
    
    	Ciao
    	 Steve

    Bob Ackerley, one of the worst owners in pro sports, is credited with
    practically dismissing Whitsitt on the radio.  Reports say that Detlef
    Schrempf is having second thoughts about returning.

    Yep,
    
    Whitsitt asked for one of three things to happen for next year to help
    the team.  One of them was for Ackerley to leave the team as is.  I
    can't remember the second.  The third was to let Whittsitt out of his
    contract to pursue other interests.
    
    Acklerley then got pissed and is somewhat blackballing Whitsitt. 
    Ackerley released the news that Whitsitt wanted out, then proceeded to
    inform all employees to not help Ackerley refute the statement. 
    Ackerley owns the local sports Radio show and has informed them to
    report the news his way.
    
    Whitsitt, on his own, sent out faxes to the local news giving his side of
    his side of the story.
    
    No comment from Karl. He is out of town.
    
    Ackerley is an A$$.  I remember when he bought the team from
    Schuhlman(sp).  He had the Championship trophy removed from the office
    because he said it was "his" team now and that they would have to earn
    there own.  Whitsitt has done everything for this team and all Ackerley
    ever does is muck it up.
    
    Man, this gets me riled...first this then Griffey say he wants out of
    Seattle.  I'm sure glad my "true" favorite teams are not local.
    
    Ciao
    Steve

    How about the Sonics this season?  Can Karl manage the team or are 'the
    inmates running the asylum?'  Will the team post an impressive number
    of wins in the regular season, only to lose, again, in the post-season?
    Who can shoot consistently from the outside?  How will Kemp perform
    after almost being traded?  Can Wally Walker keep Karl and Ackerly from
    killing each other?
    
    

    Both Seattle and Houston will fail to win as many games as last season. 
    I don't think Seattle can overcome their internal problems to be
    effective as a team.  Talented teams with internal conflicts won't do
    well in crucial situations.

    I believe the Sonics may have managed to smooth out most of their
    internal problems (crossed fingers here).   When the Sonics let Cage go
    and traded Pierce, they relieved two of the bigger problems.  Cage,
    even though it wasn't noted much, was a big whiner regarding playing
    time (kinda like Gill ;*)).  With Pierce, him and Payton did not get
    along.  Payton was told that he had to be a team leader, but Pierce
    wouldn't let him take the reigns.
    
    Karl has just layed down the law - NO WHINING - he stated publicly in
    the papers that if a player whines re. playing time, the player will
    lose more minutes.  I don't know if that will work.  The Sonics may end
    up with no players getting time ;*)
    
    Kemp I think will step up another notch on his way to establishing
    himself as one of the best in the league.  In the off-season he really
    packed on some muscle, maybe it'll help inside.  I just hope he worked
    on his freethrow shooting.
    
    It is really hard to predict anything before the season starts, but I
    sure would like to see the go at least past the 1st round in the
    playoffs this year ;*)
    
    Ciao
    Steve

    I thought Karl, Payton, and Kemp didn't get along either.  What gives?

    Kemp & Karl
    
    There was a lot of talk of them not getting along due to the nixed
    trade with the Bulls during the off season.  But they have both come
    out saying that there are no problems.  Kemp stayed away from the press
    and the Sonics during the off season and played a lot of ball while
    bulking up.  He wouldn't talk to anyone.  Now he is back with a HUGE
    extension to his contract.
    
    Payton & Karl
    
    They both say that they will continue to argue, due to their
    personalities being so close.  But, they both state that they have huge
    admiration for each other.
    
    First game looked like the Sonics were going down, but Perkins came
    through with three treys in the fourth and Schrempf played an excellant
    game.
    
    Does Utah have anybody besides Stockton & Malone that can do anything,
    those two were great but the rest was like a small supporting cast with
    nothing to show.
    
    Ciao
    Steve

    Who really cares if they get along?  The Bulls reportedly didn't get
    along during their championship seasons.  Remember the Bronx Zoo
    Yankees?  "Just win, baby."
    
    

    Sonics looked awful lasted night, especially on the boards.  The
    Celtics, not exactly the best rebounding team in the league, smoked 'em
    55-40 off the glass.  Dino Radja totally outplayed Kemp.  Perkins was
    invisible most of the night.  Gary Payton was disinterested.  Dee Brown
    dominated Kendall Gill.
    
    I hope for the Sonics' sake this was just an off night.
    
    NAZZ

    Well, I don't drink Cappucino or wear plaid, but I do listen to grunge.
    
    My wife has informed me that I am not allowed to watch basketball in
    the house anymore due the string of &*%*%$&%$*&(^)! that was emitting
    from my mouth after the last two games.  THis does give me a chance to
    sample a new brew at this new tavern down the street though.
    
    My prediction: If the Sonics lose this playoff series with LA, George
    Karl will be gone, either by his own choice or Ackerly's (owner).
    
    Karl has stated that for tomorrows game he is going to stay with his
    small rotation, which means Marciolunas (sp) will not get the minutes. 
    I feel the Sonics need to get this guy in there to help with the
    physical game.
    
    Alas...it is a probably a lost cause...again.
    
    Ciao, Steve

    
    I think you're right, Steve.  Karl is a goner, unless the Sonics make
    it to the finals.
    
    brews

    Well Karl learned the jugular tightening mode from snuffy as did Brick
    and now Montross.  Jordan must have got out of the place in just in
    time, maybe Rasheed and Jerry should do the same but off the Arkansas
    game it's too late for Wallace.

    The Lakers-Sonics game lasted night was one of the most entertaining
    games I have ever watched, especially since I didn't care which team
    won, which is unusual for me!  Just great basketball, from the
    beginning to the final minute.  When Van Exel threw up that L-O-N-G
    3 with about a minute and a half left, down one, I figured the Lakers
    were done for sure, especially since Eldon Campbell decided he was the
    go-to guy on two straight possessions.  But the Laker defense was
    terrific, keeping the ball away from the only guy that could hurt them
    - Kemp - and forcing bad shots from Perkins and Schrempf.
    
    I was definitely wrong about Van Exel when I questioned if he'd be able
    to shoot consistently enough and be unselfish enough in the pros. 
    Well, Del Harris haas worked wonders with him and Van exel is now one
    of the top point guards in the league.  He dompletely dominated Gary
    Payton in this series, and played all 48 minutes the last three games.
    
    As for the Sonics, they face as big a rebuilding job as the Celtics. 
    Many of their key players (Perkins, McMilan, Schrempf) are past their
    prime, Payton is an enigma, Gill is a bigger enigma, and Karl is a
    goner, I'm sure.  Only Kemp has anything to be proud of after this
    wipeout.
    
    NAZZ

The Sonics seem to be the UNC of the NBA. 

Great regular season, Snuffy-like choke jobs in the playoffs...

>    As for the Sonics, they face as big a rebuilding job as the Celtics. 
>    Many of their key players (Perkins, McMilan, Schrempf) are past their
>    prime,                                       ^^^^^^^^

And I thought they stole this guy for Derrick McKey.   :^o


If anyone keeps in touch with Josh Rice, tell him I hope he can enjoy
the playoffs even though his Sonics are gone after round 1 (AGAIN)
and the Knicks are still in it.   %^)

    Joe I thought so too after seeing Detlef against the Celtics back when
    Bird was still there and Shremp was in Indiana.  McKey is still a big
    asset to Indiana.