Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    Anyone know how long Polynice is out?
    

DETROIT PISTONS - Backup center Olden Polynice (surgery to repair
fractured middle finger on right hand) is on the five-game injured
list (went on 12/30) and is expected to be sidelined until at least
late January or early February.

    Well, it sounds like that by this time tomorrow, Mr. Rodman will no
    longer be a Piston.  It's too bad, but in a sense, I'm glad.  At least
    the Pistons realize they can't win a championship with the same guys
    who got them there a few years ago.  They're not waiting for all of
    them to get old and gray together and they'll dealing people who have
    trade value while they still have it.  This is the first "Main" cog
    they've traded, but if it will help them get better for the future,
    I'm for it.  
    
    They've got rid of Edwards, Salley, Blanks, Bedford and Walker.
    Not all starters, but at least it was a start.  Now they can get a
    3rd guard to take some of the slack from Dumars and Thomas.  They've
    added Polynice, Mills, Glass and will get a quality player or two
    in this deal.  Plus some draft picks to work from to replace some 
    given away in deals like Walker and others. 
    
    Bye Dennis, now /Don has to buy a new shirt...
    

    Yo Walt,
    Can you mail that first paragraph to Mssrs. Volk, Gavitt, and
    Auerbach?  
    
    Danke
    MikeL
    

    Too late, ain't it?  They had a chance to send McHale to Minnesota.
    They had a chance to make a big deal to get Hakeem, didn't they?

    Yea  Walt,
    As Johnny Most would say  "Too late!" But a slap in da puss, late or
    not, would be nice.  But we'd hear the obligatory "Salary Cap".
    
    MikeL
    

The Celts had a shot a Hakeem?  What were they asking for?

Mike

    I thought I heard they were trying to package Lewis a #1 and Parish
    when Hakeem was unhappy, but pulled it because they were giving up
    too much...
    

    Vecsey just said on the radio that Rodman *WILL* go to the Pacific
    division.  Portland seems to be in the lead now because they are
    offering a starter - Kevin Duckworth, and Andelman wants him badly.
    
    Mike

    What does Eddie have to do with this?  Oh, Adelman... never mind...
    

Did Rodman stay put?  The only deal I heard was Woolridge to
the Bucks for Alvin Roberston.

Mike

    Rodman stayed put...  Not sure how I feel about that or not.  I guess
    if they couldn't get what they wanted, then that's good.  I hope they
    didn't get cold feet after a good offer was given.  I wouldn't want
    Duckworth.  I would want younger legs than him (and more talent).
    
    With Thomas, Dumars and Rodman all in the lineup this year, the Pistons
    are 16-7.  Don't know if that was a factor or not.
    

    Media leaks around here say that the Phoenix deal was all set late
    Wednesday night, but then the young Detroit management obtained cold
    feet and couldn't pull the trigger.  They gambled and tried to hold out 
    for Dumas but it backfired on them.
    
    Mike

	The thing that bothers me about this whole Rodman thing is most NBA 
GM's are writing off what could be some serious mental problems as "head 
case" stuff.  Sox fans may remember Roger Moret and how first Boston 
then the other teams he played for only worried that he could pitch every 
four days and ignored some very troubling signs.  The same could be 
happening to Rodman.  I realize that he makes big money and he's a pampered 
superstar etc.  But just like an athlete can have a heart attack or get in 
a car accident, an athlete can have mental problems just like anybody else. 

				/Don

    Another rumor now had a 3-way deal proposal between Detroit, Phoenix,
    and Minnesota:
    
    1. Detroit sends Rodman to Phoenix
    2. Phoenix sends Ceballos, Knight to Detroit
          "      "   Mustaf to Minnesota
    3. Minnesota sends Thurl Bailey to Detroit
    
    Mike

    Rodman shot it down, would have had to take paycut to go to Phoenix.
    

    I wonder what Detroit's front office thinks now after the way Ceballos
    has been lighting it up in Dumas' absence and Rodman is on suspension
    again.  Cedric had 54 DECpoints on Tuesday night!
    
    Jerry Colangelo stated that as late as 45 minutes before the trading
    deadline, he thought Rodman was a Sun.  You never know, Dennis could
    have ruined Phoenix's chemistry.
    
    Mike

    Happy they didn't get Dumars cuz he's hurt.  Pistons beat da Bulls by
    2 at home.
    

Article 8522 of clari.sports.basketball:
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Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: NBA fines Bulls, Pistons

	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Chicago guard Darrell Walker was suspended one game
and fined by the NBA Wednesday and Bulls forward Scott Williams and
Detroit Pistons center Bill Laimbeer were fined for an altercation
during their game Monday night.
	Walker, whose suspension is without pay, was fined $10,000, Laimbeer
$12,000, and Williams $6,000 and in addition, eight Bulls and six
Pistons were fined $500 each for leaving the bench. Because Walker is on
the injured list with a muscle strain in his lower back, he will serve
the suspension after he has been given medical clearance to play. Walker
was on the Bulls' bench in civilian clothes when he left the bench and
attempted to fight with Laimbeer.
	Laimbeer was fined for slapping Williams in the face with an open
palm and precipitating the incident. Williams was fined for hitting
Laimbeer in retaliation.
	Both players were ejected, carrying an additional $250 fine. Chicago
won the game 98-95.
	The NBA also fined Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Bill Cartwright,
Will Perdue, Ed Nealy, Rodney McCray, B.J. Armstrong and Corey Williams
of Chicago and Terry Mills, Dennis Rodman, Mark Aguirre, Mark Randall,
Alvin Robertson and Danny Young of Detroit $500 each for leaving the
bench area during the incident.

From: [email protected] (UPI)
Subject: Pistons fire coach Rothstein

	AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (UPI) -- One day after failing to make the
playoffs for the first time in 10 years, the Detroit Pistons Monday
fired head coach Ron Rothstein.
	Rothstein was hired last year to replace Chuck Daly, who left to
become the head coach of the New Jersey Nets.
	Detroit compiled a 40-42 record under Rothstein, who had a tumultuous
rookie season with the Pistons. In February, half the players on the
team's 12-man roster complained to a Detroit newspaper about the way
Rothstein handled the team. Players pointed out a number of things,
centering mostly on Rothstein's alleged unwillingness to listen and his
inability to relate.
	``We met with Ronnie this morning and discussed what is the
likelihood of some of the problems going away,'' said Tom Wilson, the
Pistons president, in announcing Rothstein's dismissal. ``We looked at
it (as if) we were going to go ahead, we needed to change.''
	When asked about a successor, Wilson said ``we haven't talked about
it. We will have one within the next two weeks.''
	Wilson said Billy McKinney, Piston director of player personnel, has
``spent some time recently to mend feelings (between Rothstein and the
Piston players.) ''As the season wore on, the gaps got wider.``
	Rothstein was signed to a four-year, $2.1-million contract with
Detroit last May. He was paid $450,000 this season and will receive the
remaining $1.65 million even if he is hired by another college or NBA
team.
	Prior to joining Detroit, he was a color analyst on the Pistons
Television Network (1991-92), head coach of the Miami Heat (1988-91) and
an assistant for the Pistons (1986-88).

    Hopefully, Rothstein is just step 1.  The GM said only Dumars, Laimbeer
    and Thomas are guaranteed to be back nexted year.  
    
    -Walt
    

    Path:                                                            
    nntpd.lkg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!wupost!uunet!looking!clarinews
    From: [email protected] (UPI)
    Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
    Subject: Pistons call news conference
    Keywords: baseball, coaching changes
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    Date: Mon, 3 May 93 7:27:23 PDT
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: bkp-pistons
    Priority: regular
    Format: regular
    ANPA: Wc: 240/238; Id: z2531; Sel: xxsbk; Adate: 5-3-1020aed
    Approved: [email protected]
    Codes: ysbkrxx., tnrb...., tcza...., tsza....
    Lines: 22
    
    	AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (UPI) -- The Detroit Pistons have called a news
    conference for 2:30 p.m. EDT Monday, at which time they reportedly will
    name Don Chaney as their new head coach.
    	The Detroit Free Press is reporting that Chaney will be named to
    replace the fired Ron Rothstein.
    	Chaney, former Los Angeles Clippers and Houston Rockets head coach,
    served as an assistant under Rothstein this past year. He began his
    coaching career as an assistant with Detroit in 1980 following a 12-year
    professional career. He coached in Detroit for three seasons before
    moving to the Clippers as an assistant from 1983-85.
    	Chaney became the Clippers' head coach from 1985-87 and was an
    assistant with the Atlanta Hawks for two seasons.
    	Chaney achieved his greatest coaching success with the Houston
    Rockets, compiling a 138-108 record in three seasons, all of which
    resulted in playoff berths. Chaney's .561 winning percentage is the
    highest in franchise history and he was named the NBA's Coach of the
    Year following the 1990-91 seasons. Chaney's overall record with the
    Rockets and Clippers is 191-240.
    	Rothstein was named to succeed Chuck Daly as head coach last May.
    Detroit finished a disappointing 40-42 this season and failed to make
    the playoffs for the first time since 1983. Rothstein was fired with
    three years remaining on a four-year contract worth $2.1 million.
    

 Chaney and Rodman together that's a scary thought....

 I remember meeting the "Duck" after a game behind the gardhen. He had
 a case of Michelobs on his sholders.....

 ;^)

    An ex-Celtic coaching the Pistons?!

    	Hey MikeC, back when "The Duck" played, most of the NBAers would
    suck down the suds after games.  They were mainly men back then,
    not milk drinking Madison Ave. types like they are today.  Heck,
    Don Nelson practically lived in "The Horse".
    
    				/Don

    
    Congrats Walt.  I'm sure it makes us both feel good that a Celtic at
    the helm is what the Pistons needed to return to respectability.
    
    8^)
    brews 

    I don't care if he was Celtic, Laker, whatever.  I want a guy who isn't
    gonna take crap and knows how to win.  Chaney can do that.  Rothstein
    was an oaf.

    I hate to say this, but congrats to Detriot (tm).  They did the right
    thing in admitting Rothstein was a mistake.  With both him and
    McCloskey gone (who is sure to keep Minnesota a dog of a team for a 
    long time - pun intended), Pistons have a chance to return to the glory
    of the late '80s sooner than I would have wanted.
    
    NAZZ

    Depends on what they do with Rodman and their draft picks.  If they can
    get a decent big man and a small forward, it would be tremendous.
    

    >Depends on what they do with Rodman and their draft picks.  If they can
    >get a decent big man and a small forward, it would be tremendous.
    
    Well, they got the small forward.  Rodman, Morris and a swap of 1st
    round picks in 94 (if not a top 10), 95 (if not a top 8) or 96.  If
    the Piston pick is a top 10 in 94, San Antonio gets Detroit's 2nd round
    pick.  The Pistons somehow got a 2nd round pick in 97 in a separate
    deal.
    
    Now they need a decent big man... 

>    Now they need a decent big man... 
    
    What about Cadillac Anderson?  I'm sure he'll help.

    I see his as a power forward, not a center.  Same with Mills...
    

    Anyone hear a rumor that Zeke and Big Bill went at it in practice today
    and Zeke broke his hand?
    

    no but last week Zeke broke/bruised? a rib on a Lamebrain pick and
    realized the seriousness of the injury after miserably failing to take
    a swing at Lamebrain.

    Thanks Mike... topic 10 covers it I think...
    

Yeah, Walt 'tis true, but that's about all I heard. It's broke, cast, IR,
the whole thang.

No mention of what effect if any on Laimbeers haid, though.

TTom

   Hahahahaha. Too bad broken hands are seldom fatal or at the very least
  career ending. I wonder how the smiling wuss is going to explain this
  one away. Hahahaha!

    How do you realize the seriousness of an injury by failing to take a
    swing?

    I suppose Isaiah will be paid during his absence caused by his own
    negligence - I mean hitting a ND alumni on his skull...

>    How do you realize the seriousness of an injury by failing to take a
>    swing?
    
    he started to take a swing before his ribs told him it wouldn't be a
    good idea.  That's their 2nd run-in in as many as weeks.  

    	The Little Princess should've realized that giving a scalp massage
    to a cementhaid like Laimbeer would result in some hand damage.  Gee,
    teammates fighting each other, players attacking management.  I guess
    the Pistons figure if they can't live up to the BadBoy image on the
    court, they'll try off it instead.
    
    				/Don

 Walt, think they'll retire Bill's number??? Lambieer's biggest problem was
 he played on the wrong team. If he played here JM would made a Saint out of
 him.........

 mike    

    Wouldn't surprise me.  Only ones I think so far are Bing and Lanier.
    I'd think the 3 left would be the best candidates for number
    retirement.
    
    Hall of Fame?  

 
   A year or two ago when Detroit was in town, one of the local 
  sportscasters was interviewing Laimbeer and after asking him 
  all of the standard questions he asked Bill if he would like
  to play for the Celitcs them being the most storied franchise 
  in the history of the game. "I'm a Piston," Laimbeer said flatly.
  And he was. A Piston. He wasn't liked and said he didn't care.
  I find it hard to believe but maybe he really didn't. What he
  really *did* care about was winning and he did everything within
  his power to win. The guy squeezed more out of the talent he was
  given than anybody else in the league. And that's why he was one
  of my favorites. When the heat was on him he didn't try and smile 
  his way out of it like Isaiah, instead he basked in it. The guy was 
  tough he played hurt, he played hard. He was a Piston. He was Motor 
  City through and through. Laimbeer may not have wanted to play for 
  the 'Tics but I wished he did. He deserves to have his number retired. 
  Detroit owes a day without boos, a day of his own.

>  his way out of it like Isaiah, instead he basked in it. The guy was 
>  tough he played hurt, he played hard. He was a Piston. He was Motor 
    
    especially if the guy was smaller than him.  Don't get me wrong, I
    admire him for lasting as long as he did, but I've seen him run and
    hide (showing his yellow streak) from the likes of Barkley and Rick
    Mahorn.
    
    You have to love his desire to win and his work ethic though.  I hope
    some members of the Suns were taking notes.

    Don't remember him having a problem with Mahorn.  They got along well
    when they were teammates.  Don't remember him running from Parish when
    Parish sucker punched him... he was down on the ground...  Gee, Karl
    Malone's about KJ's size too, right?

    Laimbeer himself said he was no fighter. Was his job to aggravate,
    instigate and get the hell out, so he says. I don't interpret that
    to be a yeller streak. He provoked.
    
    And as much as I like and respect 00, I wouldn't be too proud of
    them "punches". Looked like a grade school girl flailin' away.
    A_course, Laimbeer didn't look too mainly either.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
  >> especially if the guy was smaller than him.  Don't get me wrong, I
  >> admire him for lasting as long as he did, but I've seen him run and
  >> hide (showing his yellow streak) from the likes of Barkley and Rick
  >> Mahorn.
    
     Last night the Boston stations and ESPN all had highlights (or is that
     lowlights) of the many many (add another many) scraps that Bill has
     been in and (admittedly) some of his cheapshots. The guy wasn't a
     fighter. I wouldn't lay odds on him against Katarina Witt. But he
     knew when to stand and fight and when to back off. What he himself said 
     that he tried to do was antagonize the other guy and take him out of
     his game. No one did it better. It was just another way that he got as 
     far with his talent as his would take him and then some. Whether that's
     right or wrong is debatable. That he was effective isn't.
    
    >> You have to love his desire to win and his work ethic though.  I hope
    >> some members of the Suns were taking notes.
    
      Not just to take a swipe at the Suns, Mike but if they haven't
      developed those things by this point in their careers then they
      won't ever. Charles and KJ are every bit as physical as Laimbeer 
      was but where Laimbeer actions had a team-oriented purpose, Charles 
      and KJ engage in macho personal tussles. 

    And Neal O'Donnell is the 2nd coming of Brian Sipe...

    Anyone out there have career stats of Laimbeer?  I know he scored over
    10,000 points and only missed 9 games in 14 years, but does he really
    have a legit chance at the Hall of Fame?
    
    Undoubtedly, #40 for the Pistons should be hung from the Palace rafters
    though.  I wonder what Detroit would have done without him (besides
    being less hated)!
    
    Phil
    

     Not really much for stats but...
 
	AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (UPI) -- The baddest of the Detroit Pistons' Bad
Boys retired Wednesday because he felt that he was becoming the type of
basketball player he despised.
	``If I'd taken some time off to heal my injuries I could have come
back and played another season, maybe two more because the NBA is so
diluted with talent, but I have no use for guys who aren't willing to be
competitive,'' said Bill Laimbeer, who ended a 14-year NBA career, the
last 13 with the Pistons.
	``When we had players here who no longer cared, I'd ride them
unmercifully,'' he continued. ``They had no business being here, and I
was becoming one of those players. I couldn't accept that so I stepped
aside.''
	Laimbeer said the idea of retirement began hitting him seriously
during training camp. He said there were two main factors that went into
his decision to retire.
	``You have to have total disregard for the well-being of your body
and I now longer have that,'' he said. ``I want to go out with my body
intact so I can walk a golf course and take up skiing.
	``But most important, I no longer have the desire to compete as a
basketball player.''
	Now Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars are the only remaining members of the
Detroit teams that won back-to-back NBA championships in 1989-90.
	Thomas and Laimbeer had a much-publicized fight during practice
recently, but the two old friends have apparently patched up the
quarrel.
	``I think Bill is still very effective as a basketball player,''
Thomas said. ``His play bothered him, but it didn't bother anybody else.
But you have to live up to your own expectations. After you've achieved
what we have here, you don't have the desire of a 23 or 24-year-old kid.
	``It bothered him, but only him. You have to be happy for him to walk
away with the respect and pride that he has. That's tough for athletes
to do,'' Thomas said.
	Although he was bothered by a sore back and a bad knee, Laimbeer
played 11 games this season, averaging 9.8 points and 5.1 rebounds. He
had a three-game spurt immediately after the altercation with Thomas in
which he averaged 20.3 points and shot 67 percent from the field in
victories against Orlando, San Antonio and Philadelphia.
	Laimbeer, who played three seasons at Notre Dame before turning pro
with the Cleveland Cavaliers in 1980, is the Pistons' career leader in
rebounds and games played. He averaged 12.9 points and 9.7 rebounds in
his career.
	He was named to the NBA All-Star team four times and led the NBA in
rebounding with a career-best 13.1 in 1985-86. Last season he became the
19th player in NBA history to score 10,000 points and pull down 10,000
rebounds.
	Laimbeer came to Detroit with Kenny Carr on Feb. 16, 1982, in a deal
that sent Phil Hubbard, Paul Mokeski and a pair of draft picks to
Cleveland.
	Laimbeer said that club president Tom Wilson and coach Don Chaney
each tried to talk him out of retiring.
	``We had a good 10 hours of discussion the last three weeks,''
Laimbeer said. ``It was only my respect for the people in the
organization that kept me around. Finally I saw a light that said,
'Bill, it's time to go. Get out of the way.'''
	Laimbeer's style of play made him one of the most disliked players in
the league. His grabbing and clutching frustrated opposing players, but
he claimed he was usually misunderstood.
	``I was the guy that wore the black hat, but that's part of the
entertainment business,'' he said. ``Everything -- movies, television,
sports -- is structured for a bad guy.
	``Even in high school people disliked me. That's because I'm
frustrating to play against. I'm always there. I don't go away. I'm
always in somebody's way and that makes them angry. The people close to
me see a different person than the one the public perceives, but that's
OK. I don't need 200 million friends.''
	Laimbeer wasn't sure of his plans for the future. He's an excellent
golfer who could try to earn a spot on the PGA tour.
	``Golf is a possibility,'' he said. ``I'm also planning to start a
business with my father.''
	He wasn't sure whether a return to basketball in another capacity was
in his future.
	``I have no idea what the future holds,'' he said. ``I purposely said
I was leaving basketball as a player. I don't know when or if there will
be a place in the organization for me. And if there is, I might be
having so much fun I won't want to make a change. But I'll always be a
Detroit Piston. That will never change.''
	Laimbeer said he hoped to be remembered as a player who always gave
his best.
	``I think a lot of people (in the NBA) respected the way I competed
and won. I was a winner. I was paid to compete and play. I was always
there.''
	Laimbeer was one of the most durable players in the league. He missed
only eight games during his 14 NBA seasons -- four by injury and two
through suspension -- and his string of 685 consecutive games played is
the fourth-longest in NBA history.
    

�	Laimbeer, who played three seasons at Notre Dame 
    
    And you like this guy, Tommy?
    
    So Laimbeer is done as of now?  I wasn't paying attention and assumed
    he was finishing out the season.	
    
�	Laimbeer wasn't sure of his plans for the future. He's an excellent
�golfer who could try to earn a spot on the PGA tour.
    
    Maybe he can pair up with Jordan.

RE: Bill and golf...

So when will one of the big 3 have an ex-NBA skins match on in prime time? 

Lambeer, Jordan, Barkley and ???

My money would be on Bill. Even though it's ludicrous to think he had a PGA
shot he's a very good flogger...


Metz

	Bill Lambier is to basketball what Jack Lambert was to football.


	IMHO
	billl

    From inside sports 93-94 basketball yearbook:
    "Laimbeer's fine career is nearing the end.  While few people outside
    Detroit are shedding any tears, the Pistons would not have won two
    titles without Laimbeer.  In his prime, he was a great rebounder, a
    deadly outside shooter, and the best instigator in the game.  He's
    still great at getting on an opponent's nerves with a well-timed shove
    or elbow, but his skills have deteriorated".
    
   Isn't Nelson in the HOF?  What are his numbers like.  What are other
    centers like?

    Lamebrain was in the stands watching the Suns-Pistons tonight.

    Uh, point being?  Doesn't Bird go to games?    

    He just went to shake Sir Charles hand before the game.

 At least Charles got a feeling, however vicarious, of what championship rings
feel like.

    He knew that already.  He's shaken Paul Westphal's, AC Green's, and 
    Danny Ainge's hands before.

    Isiah was named to replace Hardaway on Dream Team II.  

    KJ assaulted the reporter that told him the news, said he was gonna go
    play for Brazil, and hire the Brazilian Mafia to take out Little
    Princess.

    Sounds like a whiner to me... oh, were you kidding?  Did he take out
    Nancy Kerrigan too because she was better than him?
    

    KJ is not Tonja's ex-husband.

  
>>    KJ is not Tonja's ex-husband.

	but I'll be he could give an oscar winning performance in this
 role...

;^)

mikey

    Nope, the role is MADE of Isiah!

    
    
    	Yabbut if there's anything I hate more, it's the copycat approach!
    Didn't the Texas mom do the original "eliminate the competitor" script?
    
    ;^)
    
    

    Isiah won two titles... KJ fits the "runner up do what I can to win"
    model better...

    Sorry, I didn't realize the Little Princess won 2 whole titles all by
    hisself.

    How many has KJ won with his team?
    

    The Suns, Cleveland, take your pick...

    how about Cal or Sacramento H.S.?

    Don't remember Cal winning an NCAA title.
    

    California won back to back in 59,60 under Pete Newell with Darhell
    Imhoff, a favorite foil of Russells in the Laker-Celtics 60s wars.
    
    Perhaps come to think of it they lost 60 final to Jerry Lucas and Ohio
    State.

    I was born in '63... so I don't remember.  KJ wasn't there at any rate.

    At least the Celts aren't much better... or the Lakers for that matter.

    Just imagine this a few years ago:
    
    Boston  14-23  -
    Woofs   12-22  1/2
    Fakers  11-24  2
    Detriot  8-25  4
    
    
    Spud

Other than the Lakers doesn't that look wonderful?

The Crazy Met

    Hey it could be worse, you could be a dallas fan ? What the he'll
    happend to them, havnt they got 3 or 4 good draft picks the last
    3 or 4 years ?  Can they afford another top 3 pick ?  
    
    But Hey the bulls are 1 game behind there pace from last year with
    Michael :-) Not too Shabby just beat back to back too top teams on
    the west coast (Utah,Houston)... Looking good, Maybe Bulls VS Seattle
    finals :-)
    
    								Mab

    Dallas and Sacramento should just merge.
    
    Hoping the Pistons get a shot at Robinson.  Dallas may take a center
    or Kidd.

>    Hoping the Pistons get a shot at Robinson.  Dallas may take a center
>    or Kidd.

 So wouldn't I for the C's. Is Kidd considering coming out? With my luck
 the C's would win the  1st pick and take Montross. Grant Hill wouldn't
 be a bad pick either. Kinda like looking up and seeing Billy Owens sitting
 there.....

 mikey

    I would be real surprised if Kidd stayed in.

Kidd's only a sophomore.  I think he should spend another year
in college and try to acquire some semblance of an outside shot.

However, his teammate Lamond Murray is another story.  I would 
expect him to come out this year.

Ken

> Kidd's only a sophomore.  I think he should spend another year
> in college and try to acquire some semblance of an outside shot.

 didn't Magic come out after his sophomore year without an outside
 jumpshot? 

 mike

    
    
    	Yabbut I suppose I gotta toss in my 2 coppers too!
    
    Kenny Anderson also declared himself eligible after his sophomore
    year and when I last checked, he was something like 6th or 7th overall
    in assists.  Maybe higher......
    
    I remain,
    having a deadly outside shot! (with a .22 that is)
    Kev
    

Yes, Magic did leave after his sophomore year, but even then he had
a better shot than Kidd.  Also, the only reason Magic came out so
early was because he knew that the Lakers (with Kareem, Jamal Wilkes,
Norm Nixon, and company) had the number one pick and would take him.
Remember that this was before the lottery was put in place.  

Kidd has no such incentive to come out now (unless, of course, this
talk of a rookie salary cap starts to get serious).

Ken

with the contracts thrown at Weber, Bradley, Hurley, Mashburn and other top
picks this year Kidd has several million reasons to leave and go pro.

I'm curious about this new rule the NBA is talking about where a kid can
declare for the draft and if he doesn't like where he is drafted can opt to go
back to school but the original drafting team retains his rights for 2 years or
something like that....Can anybody explain this? If it's true I see a lot of
teams gambling with low first rounders and 2nd round picks on underclassmen so
that they can hold their rights....

Metz

Metz,

The NCAA is talking about instituting a rule where a player can file for the
draft, be drafted, and then decide to stay in school. 

The Crazy Met

No shit sherlock...I just said that :-)

What I'm asking for are specifics as to who owns the rights..can a player get
redrafted the next year?

Metz

    Metz, you said the NBA was going to make a rule like that, other way
    around. NBA would have to change its draft rules.
    
    The Crazy Met

    It's called Proposition 200.  Don't know the answer to your question,
    Metz, but I think you have it right.  The kid has a 30 day option to
    return to school.
    
    					Steve

The NCAA has already passed the rule.  It allows a kid to change
his mind and return to school within 30 days of the draft.  It's
not clear to me if the NBA can reject the rule or what.  I think
it's obvious that the NBA owners would be against this since it
could wreak havoc with teams' planning.

Re. money being the incentive for Kidd to come out early:

Sure, he would get big money a year earlier, but if he's not 
ready to play at the NBA level it could hurt his pro career. Glenn
Robinson could have come out last year and he would have been the
number 1 pick, but he didn't because he felt that he wasn't ready.
And Kidd's game is nowhere near as polished as Robinson's was then.

Ken

	The 30 day rule shouldn't wreak havoc with the NBA. The deadline
to declare yourself eligible for the NBA draft. Will end up being
something like 60 days before the draft. So the NBA will have plenty
of time to figure out who is and who isn't in the draft.

Ron

Rule is 30 days AFTER the draft.

The Crazy Met

That's right, 30 days after the draft.  The reason given by NCAA officials
was that this would give kids a chance to test the market without
getting burned.  For example, two years ago Harold Miner came out early,
figuring he would go in the top 5.  As it turned out, the draft was
very strong and Miner slipped all the way to 12.  If this rule were in
place then, Miner would have been able to say, "Screw this; I'm not
signing for this kind of money.  I'm going back to school."

Ken

does he then get re-drafted the following year or are his rights retained by
the original club? if he goes back into the pool what happens to the club that
drafted him,SOL?

Metz

The NBA would need to decide on those details. NCAA has no say in how long
a team gets the rights to the player. NBA has not made any decision.

NBA could decide that in a case like that a team keeps the right to a player
for 2 years, not just 1. To some extent that would negate the NCAA rule.

The Crazy Met

I think the current rule in the NBA is that the team retains the rights to a
player from the day he is drafted until the day of the next NBA draft.  If they
do not sign the player by then, he can be drafted by another team.

=Bob=

    If the NBA is going to retain the Cap then they should just do away
    with the draft period.  The draft right now increases salaries since
    agents can conspire to hold specified players and allow others to sign
    thus ruining those teams which can't sign a player.
    
    The ncaa could get smart and work with the pro teams to have the latter
    sign and pay for kid's education with the balance of the signing going
    to the kid.
    
    The actual details of this idea need work but it would at least avoid
    the Jimmy Jackson (Mavs) situations and the Bucks-Celtics trajedies
    (going years as one round and out playoff teams, never getting lottery
    picks, never seriously contending).
    
    And NCAA/colleges and boosters could save a lot of money (scholarship).
    
    $2bill

    Sean Elliott has just been traded to the Rockets for Robert Horry,
    Matt Bullard, and 2 second round picks.

    Elliot Failed A Physical and the Trade was Called_Off.
    
    
    
            Crazy_HmmMmm_Al
    

    Bulls beat Pistons by 3... Isiah sits out most of crunch time.  Why?
    
    1) Injured? (he got bopped in the head earlier in the game)
    2) Give Hunter more experience? (Thomas was 6-9 from the field)
    2a) Experience because 'Zeke is calling it quits?
    3) Looking to stay behind Philly and Washington in the standings?
    4) Other?
    

     All of the above, plus the "bop" drew blood.

    Isiah Thomas' career probably came to an end last night.  Expected to
    announce his retirement nexted week, Thomas got an ovation last night
    in his last home game.  In the third quarter, however, he ruptured his
    Achilles Tendon.  He probably will not be able to be a part of Dream
    Team II now.  Gilooly and Eckhardt were rumored to be leaving the scene
    with KJ jerseys on.

>    Team II now.  Gilooly and Eckhardt were rumored to be leaving the scene
>    with KJ jerseys on.
    
    They'll still find a way to stiff KJ and make Isaiah the DT II's
    designated smoocher for greeting European teams.

 or give his spot to the more deserving Mugsy Bogues or MOOKIE!!!!!!

    they'll need a ball boy.

It's Muggsy, folks. You know with 2 gs.

>    they'll need a ball boy.

I'll let the Clinton slur slide but this one won't pass. 

	BITE ME

TTom

>I'll let the Clinton slur slide but this one won't pass. 
    
    I didn't say a thing about Clinton.

>	BITE ME
    
    TTom, you're losing it.  There are quite a few PG's who are better than
    MuGsy:  Mookie, Kenny Anderson, Rod Strickland, Penny Hardaway, Michael
    Williams, and of course KJ.  Mugsy's stats aren't in their league.
    
    

    
>    TTom, you're losing it.  There are quite a few PG's who are better than
>    MuGsy:  Mookie, Kenny Anderson, Rod Strickland, Penny Hardaway, Michael
>    Williams, and of course KJ.  Mugsy's stats aren't in their league.
    
 
   Geez Mike, I didn't realize you were so enamored with stats. I guess you
   agree with Doctor Manyzeros that Wilted was the better than Big Bad Bill.
   Muggsy never shoots like some of those ballhogs you mentioned so hence
   less big time stats but lets talk about an important stat seeing you're
   hung up on them. Assist to turnover ratio, I believe Muggsy is about to
   top the league in this stat for third year in a row or maybe even more
   than that. Besides at his size he's a pure joy to watch and worth the
   price of admission. I'd pay to see Mookie, but certainly not KJ or
   Penny or Kenny or the rest..........


    

>>I'll let the Clinton slur slide but this one won't pass. 
>    
>    I didn't say a thing about Clinton.

then what's this:

                <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< SPORTS >-
================================================================================
Note 27.4905               Honorary Mike JN Junk Note               4905 of 4913
FRETZ::HEISER "no D in Phoenix"                       4 lines  20-APR-1994 12:47
                            -< Quote of the Month >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "There is less evidence against 90% of the inmates on death row than
    there is against Bill Clinton as brought forth by the Arkansas State
    Troopers." - Judge James Johnson, former member of the Arkansas State
    Supreme Court, from the video "Clinton's Circle of Power"

Q.E.D.

And you most certainly did slur my main main Muggsy which, as I said
earlier, I aint gonna tolerate.

TTom

    TTom, Judge James Johnson said that, not me.
    
    Mike, stats are a good measurement.  Russell - 11, Wilt - 2?  Mugsy has
    a good ballhandling ratio because he's low to the floor and nobody in
    the NBA can reach down that low.  Besides, it's downright indecent to 
    steal from the little ones.

    Mike C knows who I'd vote for...
    

    Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
    Subject: Isiah Thomas Career Stats
    Keywords: basketball statistics
    Copyright: 1994 by The Associated Press, R
    Message-ID: <[email protected]>
    Date: Tue, 10 May 94 23:20:08 PDT
    Expires: Tue, 31 May 94 23:20:08 PDT
    ACategory: sports
    Slugword: Isiah-Stats
    Priority: regular
    ANPA: Wc: 272/0; Id: V0181; Src: ap; Sel: -----; Adate: 05-11-N/A
    Approved: [email protected]
    Codes: APO-2034
    Lines: 49
            Career statistics for Isiah Thomas, who is expected to announce
    his retirement on Wednesday:
    Isiah Thomas
    Regular Season
                   G   FG   FT  Ast   Pts
    81-82 Det     72 .424 .704  7.8  17.0
    82-83 Det     81 .472 .710  7.8  22.9
    83-84 Det     82 .462 .733 11.1  21.3
    84-85 Det     81 .458 .809 13.9  12.2
    85-86 Det     77 .488 .790 10.8  20.9
    86-87 Det     81 .463 .768 10.0  20.6
    87-88 Det     81 .463 .714  8.5  19.5
    88-89 Det     80 .464 .818  8.3  18.2
    89-90 Det     81 .438 .774  9.4  18.4
    90-91 Det     48 .435 .782  9.3  16.2
    91-92 Det     78 .446 .772  7.2  18.5
    92-93 Det     79 .418 .737  8.5  17.6
    93-94 Det     58 .417 .702  6.9  14.8
    Totals       979 .452 .759  9.3  19.2
            ------
    Playoffs
                  G    FG   FT  Ast   Pts
    83-84 Det     5  .470 .771 11.0  21.4
    84-85 Det     9  .500 .758 11.2  24.3
    85-86 Det     4  .451 .667 12.0  26.5
    86-87 Det    15  .451 .755  8.7  24.1
    87-88 Det    23  .437 .828  8.7  21.9
    88-89 Det    17  .412 .740  8.3  18.2
    89-90 Det    20  .463 .794  8.2  20.5
    90-91 Det    13  .403 .725  8.5  13.5
    91-92 Det     5  .338 .786  7.4  14.0
    Totals       111 .441 .769  8.9  20.4
            ------
    Highlights
            All-time Detroit Pistons' leader in points, assists and steals.
            1990 NBA Finals MVP as Pistons defeated Portland.
            12-time NBA All-Star, and two-time All-Star Game MVP.
            Was second overall pick (behind Mark Aguirre) in 1981 draft.
            Helped Indiana win NCAA Championship in 1981.
    

>    Highlights

	Passing the ball to Larry to lose the game...
	Kissing Magic before losing the final series
	Breaking his hand hitting Laimbeer

TTom

>	Passing the ball to Larry to lose the game...
>	Kissing Magic before losing the final series
>	Breaking his hand hitting Laimbeer
    
    I think he did the last one 2 times.

    Won more rings than KJ...
    

    He didn't win them by himself.  Isiah would've won more than 2 if he
    remembered to pass the ball to players with the same uniform as him.

    
    
    	I still think the Bird steal was more Laimbeer's fault than Thomas.
    Bill just stood there and waited for the ball to come to him, rather
    than move towards the ball as the pass was made. All Laimbeer needed
    was one or two steps, and the steal never would have been made.
    
    	Isiah passed to an open man, it not his fault the guy did nothing
    to stay open.... (The pass could have had a little more zip on it
    though.)
    
    JimH
    

>    Won more rings than KJ...    

I'll see your snarf and raise you a touch�.

TTom

    No, but he led the team... which is why he won an MVP in the playoffs
    along the way...
    
    I thought KJ was the best in the league.  He had last years MVP.
    What other help would he need?

	ESPN said last night that it did not matter when Isiah retired in
terms of the salary cap. Even if he waited until after July 1st. The Pistons
could only use half of his 2.5 million salary slot or 1.25 million.

Ron

    That makes a little more sense...
    

re: Cap.

The CLARI article stated clearly that half the slot was at stake. ESPN
sounds like they're changing their tune cause I heard it there, too.

In any case, he won't be on the Dream Team and maybe, with any luck, we
done with this guy. And to think, I used to like him a lot for beating
the Tar Heels in '81.

TTom

> In any case, he won't be on the Dream Team and maybe, with any luck, we
> done with this guy. And to think, I used to like him a lot for beating
> the Tar Heels in '81.


 Didn't we all? I also enjoyed him beating the Lakers when Magic wussied
 out cause he knew it was ineviatable....

 I heard the same thing that ESPN said after the game last night on TNT...

 he was a pain in the ass but he was super talented and enjoyable to watch
 when he was playing your team.......

 mike

    Now that they have Terry Mills AND Oliver Miller, Dunkin Donuts will be
    opening a franchise in the Palace.

    I caught this the first time you said it...

    They're closing the Dunkin Donuts next to AWA.  The lack of Ollie put
    them out of business.