Conference noted::ibmpc-95

Hello,
	I decided to plug into a note which already descussed the topic I am
interested in. The discussion is rather old and I will renew it with several
questions.

	So, I am at a point where I want to figure out what to buy. Basically I
have a configuraation in my mind but several question are not solved:
	- 200 MMX or Pro? (I cannot wait for MMx with Pro)
	- Backup tape/zip?
	- 32 or 64M
	- 17" .28 | .26 | .25?
	- Gateway, Hp or Dell? How about Micron and Quantex?
	- Catalog or compUSA?
	- 2Mb/4Mb accelerator card


I personally am pretty happy with my 386 "system". I run Quicken and AmiPro
there. But some pople in my house want to run sofisticated games on one side and
NT workstation (VB and a C++) on another. 

Price range $2500 - $2900. 

Any suggestions?

Can anybody comment on sellers in terms of product/service quality?

>> Serge

    Processor choice depends to some extent on what O/S you're planning
    to run.  The Pentium Pro performs better on a true 32-bit O/S, such
    as Windows NT (Windows 95 still has a significant amount of 16-bit
    code left in the O/S) - in fact, I've seen some tests that show a
    Pro's performance under W95 is roughly equal to the same clock speed
    "regular" Pentium.
    
    If you're doing application development I'd opt for 64 Mb - 32 Mb
    is adequate for most "home" tasks.  NT also seems to perform better
    with additional memory than W95 does (subjective measurements I've
    made).
    
    Amount of video card memory depends on your use - if you plan to do
    high-resolution photo editting you'd want 4 Mb (or perhaps 8 Mb) -
    otherwise 2 Mb should be adequate.
    
    A friend recently agonized over where to buy - mail order, catalog,
    retail store, etc. - after a lot of research he decided to buy a
    Dell Millenium (?) system.  Dell, Gateway, and Micron were about
    the same price-wise (Dell had a slight edge), and Dell seemed to
    have a few more name brand components (such as the sound card) than
    did Gateway.

    
    A friend is selling P133's w/8Mb mem, 1.2Gb 1mb PCi video, sans monitor, 
    modem, multimedia for $920 and P166's for $1095 now. A P133 for my
    brother with only a 14" monitor, 16mb mem, 8x CD + 16bit sound cards
    and a 33.6kbps modem for about $1500 or so. This is at his store. He
    doesn't have the Pro or MMX chips (could get them if requested) and he
    has the 200Mhz regular pentium. Not too bad. Could do a bit better at
    the shows. I am getting some stuff from him soon to put a P133 together
    (finally!) and am looking forward to getting a faster system.
    
    $2500 w/17" monitor and 32 mb mem with all the other goodies is
    probably about right. I'd have to check prices though to get a better
    idea what it'd cost for a full blown package from him.
    
    

    While W95 has some 16 bit code in it, many of the '95 apps are full 32
    bit. The PPRO is never slower than an equivalently clocked Pentium, and
    usually significantly faster, even running W95. On WNT, it screams.
    It is a dog under WIN3.1, but that's a non-issue these days.
    
    If you go 200 MHz, I think you'll find the cost difference between a
    Pentium MMX and a Pro system to be minimal. The MMX might cost more...
    
    Your call.
    
    Chris
    
    

Thank you for suggestions.

Can anybody comment on zip drive versus a tape for backups?

>> Serge

    Tape, for sure, unless all you're interested in is saving data files.
    
    				Steve

    
    re: mmx
    
    	Expect Accelerated Graphics Port to start showing up on new MB's
    later this year. This will put a damper on the MMX craze.

    About tapes versa removal disk drives for backups:
    
    It is good to have a couple of "aged" versions of your data. Even
    though a save works in most cases it doesn't mean that this is what you
    can or need to restore. 
    
    Could happen that you "damaged" something on your disk (ever installed
    software which overrides Windows own DLLs ?) and you don't catch that
    problem immediately. Most likely your most recent backup has this
    "damage" too. You need, sometimes, older backups to find the problem
    and recover from it.
    
    Since removal disk media is still much more expensive than tape media
    keeping a generation of aged data around can be quite expensive.
    
    I would go with tapes. I would look for a tape drive with a media
    capacity twice my largest partition. Makes the save operation
    unattended and hopefully you can still use it that way when you install
    your next larger disk drive.
    
    Guenther

.43 >
	I'm also thinking about a possibility to upgrade to mmx later If i need
it. Do you think that this would be a problem for Pentium-pro? Would it require
a new motherboard or just a new chip/overdrive? 

.44 >
	Thank you for a suggestion. Gateway offers IOMEGA internal zip with 3
100MB disks for $139. Can I get a similar or better price on a tape?

I would go for a Travan 3 3.2G tape drive.  These can be had for a bit over
$200.  I can't recommend the Iomega drives.

				Steve

    A few comments:
    
    AGP is not a replacement for MMX. In fact the two really don't have
    anything to do with each other. AGP is looking more and more like a
    dedicated 66mhz PCI port enhanced with a few extra sideband signals and a
    cleaner/faster path to memory.
    
    As for PPro requiring a new case/PS/etc: not really true, as you can
    buy plenty of AT-style PPRO mainboards that'll run off the standard AT
    power supply. Standard fit, standard power. Check out ASUS, SuperMicro,
    Tyan, and others. Note that none of these will support the
    Klamath-style "cpu card" packaging should that see the light of day. I
    haven't seen any boards announced (yet) that do. And MMX on PPro
    hasn't been announced in any form, so who knows what the requirements
    at the mainboard will be....

    Re: .47

    I thought Klamath >was< the code name for a PPro with MMX and without
    the on-chip L2 cache.  Pentium II is the "marketing" name ...

    re: .48
    
    Without the L2 cache, for sure, but I haven't heard about MMX being
    present (could have missed this though). Got caught up in discussions
    on how poorly the chip performs compared to the original PPro...
    
    In any case, a PPro mainboard bought today pretty much locks the buyer
    into the original chip...

    
    re: .47
    
    MMX is on the Klamath. (try www.mmx.com) Agreed, the performance of the
    233MHz Klamath is marginal with L2 cache off the 200 MHz multi-chip package.
    
    AGP is exactly how you described it "a cleaner/faster path to memory"
    that is the enabler for increased 2D and 3D graphics performance.
    
    The point on PPRO's is that they are not Pentiums, and in most cases
    require different power supplies and enclosures. For people who upgrade
    frequently, its not the classic MB only migration path.
    						
    								=Paul=

    Another way to upgrade to MMX might be to go with the AMD K6 processor.
    I believe that PC Magazine said it has MMX, outruns a Pentium Pro, and
    fits into a Pentium socket, which would be nice if true.

I set my mind on MXX, not just Pentium or Pro. 

The reason: looks like a difference betweeen all three brances pricewise is
minimal. Pro gives a better performance for certain applications but I've found
that it is not so critical for me. MMX sems to be a thing which will not require
upgrade for the longest period of time and will give suficient functionality and
performance for all my needs.

Thanks a lot for the info an suggestions.

>> Serge

    re: .53
    
    Considering that "MMX2" isn't that far away (this fall?) I wouldn't
    presume that "longest period of time" is applicable...