Conference back40::soapbox

         Managers? Who needs 'em?!?

    Cops? Managers? I see a trend developing here.

    
    Shawn, you're a riot.
    

         John Sobecky? Don't recognize the name or TEXAS1. Are you new to
    notes, or just back from a long absence?

    What kind of P_N is that Ed?  Are you speaking of your willy or what?
    -ss

    
    re -1
    
    Nope, TEXAS1 is actually in Maynard, MA. Don't ask why..even I don't
    understand why.
    
    Back from a long absence? Well. I worked for DEC for 17 years, TFSOed
    in 1994, contracted for 2 years, rehired in Feb. 1996.
    
    Been around for a while. Was scared away drom SOAPBOX by a tirade from
    Dick Martel (any of you 'boxers remember him?) way back when.. have
    read many notes since then.
    
    John
    

    
    I've also found that, in spite of the noise, you can get a pretty fair
    view of what is happening politically in this world by reading the
    'box.
    
    Both sides are represented here, very emphatically.
    
    But the 'box is not easy on newcomers...
    
    John

         Well, welcome back. If you've been watching long, you know that us
    CXO'ers don't have exactly the best reputation in Soapbox. For example,
    I was about to respond to SS with this snappy comeback:
        "No, if that was the case my p-name would be 'Official Sponsor of
    the Norwegian Womens' Beach Volleyball Team'". 
         Usually, we only succeed in annoying or offending other noters,
    but I like to think that someone somewhere out there occasionally gets
    a good laugh. 

         If you're noting at night, watch for John Covert's
    up-to-the-minute newsbriefs. Much better than the evening news. 

    To be honest I have had more effective management in other jobs.   My management
    in other jobs paid there dues at what they managed - they understood
    what needed to be done, how to get things done effectively, why things 
    needed to get done - things got done.
    
    In my current position I have when thru 10 or 11 managers in 10 years.  
    About the time you get to know someone - they move out or up the scale.   
    I work with alot of talented worker-bee types who have some really good 
    ideas that if understood and focused in on could  make a big difference 
    to our groups effectiveness.   Unfortunately tasks/ideas seem to get 
    caught up in ego trips, internal haggeling and a general lack of direction.   
    
    In my opinion they focus to much on meaningless numbers and surveys
    that attempt to suck ideas for what needs to change out of people but
    really happens is that people get all bent out of shape about it and
    nothing in the short and long run gets done.  Spare me the surveys - 
    hit the floor, do the job, understand the job and then manage... 
    
    Should they get special consideration?  They should get as much
    consideration as the next guy/gal.
    
    I have hope with my current manager...   well back to it...   

  ZZ    Usually, we only succeed in annoying or offending other noters,
    
    Mr. Sobecky, don't mind Edward.  He's just a maggot we inherited...from
    whence he came we do not know.
    
    The management in this group left quite alot to be desired at one time. 
    Not all of them but most of them in years past were not qualified.  The
    new management of today is far superior.
    
    -Jack

    Someday I hope to be a manager so I can abuse my position of authority
    and power and use it to create strife and resentment among my
    subordinates.

    
    <---- heck, you do it to us in here already.

   Z    Someday I hope to be a manager so I can abuse my position of authority
   Z    and power and use it to create strife and resentment among my
   Z    subordinates.
    
    I am of the belief that the best followers make the best leaders. 
    Unfortunately Digital and other companies have neglected to see
    this...which is why I have had 7 supervisors in 5 years.  It kind of 
    defrays the importance of the role.
    
    -Jack

    .13 {smack!}

    When they make me manager I will be able to catch up on those coffee
    brakes and long lunches I am missing out on.
    
    Seriously folks, I wouldn't be a manager for the world.  It's mostly
    a thankless task only enjoyed by the power and control freaks.  I have
    seen too many really good managers leave Digital for other companies
    and too many really bad ones hang on year after year.   

| <<< Note 762.14 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| which is why I have had 7 supervisors in 5 years.  

	More like they BEGGED to be laid off!

   I've been here for 17 years and most of the manager changes I've had have
   been from me taking new jobs - I've worked for some pretty stable groups
   in that time.

   Also, to clarify, are we talking "manager" managers, like my bosses' boss,
   who has that title, or just any old supervisory level person, with people
   reporting to them?  The definition of "manager" is pretty vague.  Sure, my
   supervisor manages people, but I don't believe he has "manager" in his
   title (I could be wrong.)  Then there are the Corp. level managers who
   don't have people working for them, but manage programs, etc.  And of
   course we have things like "system managers" and "IPMT managers" who
   sometimes *think* they're real managers...   :-)  Maybe that's the problem
   around here - too many jobs with the "manager" title.

   I wouldn't mind being a manager someday, I'm just not sure if this is the
   place I'd want to do it.  Someone I know well was once a supervisor with
   this company and had a real hard time, since they were supposed to be the
   bearer of bad news from above and the recipient of complaints from below,
   with no support from either side, and (of course) no training whatsoever.

   -- Sam

    Grrrrrr.......

    Did you hear the one about the fab tech who fell in an acid tank??
    When they pulled him out all that was left was his *hole. They put
    a tie on him and made him a manager.

    That story would have benefited mightily from being 38 words shorter.

    
    what Dick really means to say is that you shouldn't have entered that
    reply.  i concur heartily.

    Managers are like just about any other position.  there are some good
    ones, some bad ones and many merely average.
    
    In my 17 years with Digital I have had 18 managers, 7 in the last 19
    months.  this speaks volumes for the upheavel within Digital.
    
    I have been on both sides of the fence as an individual contributor and
    as a manager.  I believe I was very effective as a manager and well
    respected by my group, but I would not want to go back to being a first
    line manager.
    

    Then again, maybe they're passing you around like a hot potato(e).

    Almost every bad supervisor and manager that I've had over the
    last seventeen years here has been TFSO'd or otherwise dispatched;
    in fact, there's only one of the really bad ones still here, according
    to ELF.  Oh well, can't win 'em all...  you know who you are, if
    you're lurking out there... or maybe you don't, because you're
    clueless.  :-)
    
    On the other hand, the reasonably good ones I've had are still here.
    
    I'm not sure what this means, but there ya go.
    
    Chris

    
        most I've worked for have been very good. ( 17 years, 12 mgrs )
    
      and about 1/2 are still around
    
    
    Jack
    

   Now that he's gone, I can admit in public that Jack Delbalso was once
   my supervisor.  I was indeed very fortunate.

   -- Sam

    Weren't you lucky.
    

         Speaking of Delbalso, where did he go? 

    Mont Vernon, New Hampshire.

    Please rectumfy.  Did you say he was gone...as in...GONE!?

    
    see 39.1, and 39.118-123....
    
    								-mr. bill

    My vast experience with managers is ... some are and some aren't!

though for the day:

What if'n Bob Palmer were Slick, would things be better? Worser?

TTom

    Watch what ya say about BP.  He  could wander  into  this conferenc
    too.