Conference back40::soapbox

    
    Leaving soapbox Brandon?

Heh. heh heh.

You'd like that wouldn't you?

As you see by my pn, I ain't seeking anything...

    
      Lost causes.  Generally speaking, I hold my stock too long, continue
     on projects long after I ought, keep trying to do the impossible
     no matter how obviously I'm not getting anywhere.
    
      It takes unsolicited advice from a friend to get me a clue.
    
      bb

    >> How do you know if you hadn't reached that extra inch, turned that
    >> last corner, took one more step, that you wouldn't attain what you
    >> sought?
    
    I will go "so far" with an elusive endeavor, and the point at which
    I'll give up depends on whether that "extra inch" involves an
    order-of-magnitude increase in expenditure, risk, impact on other
    people and things, and then I do a judgment call on whether all of
    that continues to "tilt the scales" in favor of continuing.
    
    If so, then I'll go for it.
    
    If not, then I will reluctantly (and sometimes sadly) but firmly
    give up, knowing that I've given it the best reasonable shot, and
    that taking the other path is the best thing for everyone.  Sometimes
    I adopt the philosophy that if it were meant to happen, I've given
    it every reasonable opportunity to do so, and have not done anything
    to prevent it from happening, but it just wasn't "meant to be".
    
    Tough decisions.  Been there.
    
    Chris

    
    It depends if it's with an individual or with an ideal.  If it's with
    an individual, I won't give up on them, but I also won't do it for
    them.  If someone asks for help (for example, this person I know is
    always telling me how they have no money, I thold them I'd look at
    their finances and we'd work out a plan.  Haven't seen the information
    that I told them I needed yet), I will help them.  If they keep asking
    for help, but keep doing the same thing, I will tell them, let me know
    when they're ready.
    
    If it's an ideal, I won't give up on it.  I will live it and show by
    example.  Sure, sometimes I get discouraged, but then I have to
    understand that if I give up the fight, I have given up on that ideal
    and if it was really that important to me, it would be forsaking myself
    which will have a negative effect on me.
    
    Mike

    
    Nah, just kidding ya Brandon.
    I'd truly hate to see you go. Actually I wish you noted more here.
    I wish I had time to note more here.
    
    On the topic...
    I try not to ever really give up on a cause although
    I may suspend my efforts for a time while reconsidering my efforts,
    options, the results so far, and how much I've already invested in 
    said cause.
    
    As for >How do you know if you hadn't reached that extra inch
    	   >turned that last corner, etc
    
    I guess I'm seldom sure when I've reached that point, being
    a generally optimistic person. 
    
    						Regards
    
    							Hank 

    I will NEVER except the word "no". Thats to easy. 

    
    Yes, but will you ever _accept_ the word "too". That's
    what I bloody want to know!
    
    -b

    .8
    Depends!

	<- bladder control problem?

I'm at a crossroads. Call it a mid-life crisis if you want. 

I'm considering a lot right now. Career moves.

(These days what was once called mid-life crisis could now be classified as
adjusting to a global economy).

This may be 'strange luck' but I seem to have come across many bio's of persons
who triumphed over seemingly daunting circumstances.

In some cases it was their tenacity that pulled them through; in others they
simply jumped off their stayed course and struck out boldly in a new direction.

Consider: the founder of Hersheys Chocolate failed in business 5 times.
A person quit their job in IBM 10 years ago to play comedy clubs for $20/night,
now will be starring in their own weekly series. Inventors may not see success
of their creations for years; their families may not support them (indeed may
even leave them), then...whoom there it is. And as we all know, success is the
Great Equalizer.

I was curious as to how others felt on this -- and perhaps sending a message to
those who have yet to experience it. 

As far as ideological positions go...c'mon you guys...yer all cynics
supreme...we all are. That's why we're the Bad Boxers.

    Hey Brandon,
    
    does this mean we might see you on Jeff Foxworthy's show?
    
    
    Seriously, I don't envy you if you're at such a crossroads; I'm
    sometimes left with that sinking feeling that I reached my cross-
    road awhile back and was afraid to take a chance on a new branch
    in the road.
    
    

     Brandon-
    
     remember one thing. You only live once. For my money, it's better to
    regret having done something than to regret having not done something.
    Follow your dreams and make them real. No one's going to make them real
    for you, not in this life, anyway. 

re:.16 (Mr. Topaz)

>       That's all fine and good, but of course the overwhelming
>       likelihood is that you'll fall flat on your face.  So all you'd be
>       doing is trading one set of mid-life crisis issues (am I
>       fulfilled?) for another (I failed!).

My uncle has a favorite question. He always asks when he sees me: "Have you made
any new mistakes lately?".

(The import being, as long as you keep making _new_ mistakes, you're alright.)

>    Hey Brandon,
    
>    does this mean we might see you on Jeff Foxworthy's show?
 
Take it to 402.

;-)

>    Seriously, I don't envy you if you're at such a crossroads; I'm
>    sometimes left with that sinking feeling that I reached my cross-
>    road awhile back and was afraid to take a chance on a new branch
>    in the road.

Grandma Moses didn't start painting until well into her 80's.
   

One of the (I guess now departed) boxer's had an interesting personal name that
stuck with me. It said "Work that dream and love your life".

I happened to catch a portion of a cartoon one Saturday morning where this comic
superhero is being menaced by an evil mentalist. The nemisis decided to
discover what the hero's worst fear was in order to exploit it for greater
control. He entered the psyche and discovered that the worst fear was...
working in an office.

Sitting at a desk with stacks of papers in the "In" box, phones constantly
ringing, a sign on the wall that said "Hang in There!", a coffee mug that read
"TGIF", voice-overs of demands and requests...it was quite hilarious...for a
moment...until I realized it resembled my office and about 75% of the other
people I work with (with much more strident messages on their walls).

I think it was Emerson (or Thoreau?) who said: "Most men lead lives of quiet
desperation".

We oughta do something about that.

    
> I think it was Emerson (or Thoreau?) who said: "Most men lead lives of quiet
> desperation".
> 
> We oughta do something about that.
    
    I learned to ride a motorcycle...
    :-)
    

        > I learned to ride a motorcycle...

    Yes Kirby, we are well aware that you have chosen the path
    of noisy desperation...

    -b

> I learned to ride a motorcycle...

Speaking of which, just how was that Rt3/128 panic stop sit-chee-ation t'day?

(Rhetorical question).

    I knew I shouldn't have put anything in the birthdate note!
    
    

Alls I'm sayin' is, you're never too young...

Easier said than done, though, I know.

Actually, Mike Wannemacher tagged it when he drew the distinction of an ideal
for that is essentially what .0 pertains to. Although, the parallels to the 9-5
are certainly as relevant.

I think it's a much harder question when you're doing something in the vein of a
commitment to an ideal.

    
    I read a little clip from the New Yorker once where a woman was afraid
    to go back to school, because 'I'll be 40 when I graduate'.  The
    response was, 'So?  You'll be 40 anyway.'.
    
    That kinda sums it up for me.
    

    
    It all comes down to love, desire, and just plain I WANT, passions
    that defy any human understanding.
    
    If you want something bad enough, if attaining that ideal is important
    enough to you, then you WILL go after it.  You will chase the ace, and
    you won't be able to stop yourself from doing so, regardless of the
    cost to yourself or others.
    
    Dreams of the goal will consume your waking and sleeping hours.  You
    will see it in the faces of every person you pass on the street, and
    every cloud that scuds across the sky.  All other desires will fall
    away as mere irrelevancies, leaving the goal revealed as the one last
    white-hot burning ember that drives you on and on, even when the
    road seems hopeless.  Even when the road IS hopeless, and you have
    no hope of ever achieving your dreams, you will keep on, pouring
    your energies into a void that mocks you, until you die, still beating
    your bloody head against that same bloody wall.
    
    The glory and the rewards don't come from finding the Grail, but
    merely in seeking it with every ounce of energy you possess.  The
    realization of your dreams is just gravy.  The chase is, after all,
    better than the catch.
    
    If you're trying to make up your mind if you really want something
    or not, then you don't want it.  If you are willing to give up
    running the race after the first hurdle, or the fifth, or the
    tenth, then you might as well have not even started.
    
    The kind of passion that drives real achievement is not necessarily
    a good thing.  After all, Hitler, John Salvi, and the Unabomber all
    had or have a vision that they persisted in seeking.  But they would
    have no more been able to stop themselves from chasing their dreams
    than they would have been able to voluntarily stop breathing.  There
    are writers who write just to try to get things out of their system,
    to try to write themselves sane.  There are other writers who, one
    could say, wrote themselves insane, and into an early grave.  But
    the one thing they didn't do was stop writing.  They had to write.
    
    If you want it, you don't need someone to tell you to go for it, 
    because you WILL go for it, or go mad with the thoughts of what
    might have been and "If only..."
    
    There are no lost causes.  Only lost souls, and winners, losers, and
    those who didn't give enough of a damn to really try.
    
    Damn the torpedoes!  Shoot the works!  Cry havoc and let slip the
    dogs of war!
    
    Just do it.
    
    
    
    Rob
                                                     

    
    Persistence of vision : Having spent 20 years in this biz as of Feb.
    16, 1996...I am outta here on that date...have developed a nice plant
    business over the last 7 years which will take up next summer...perhaps
    the fall months will be spent over a keyboard, but I have at least a
    way outta of this biz...wish me luck.
    
    20 years at this...the head spins...
    
    ;^)
    

    .28
    I didn`t start back to school until I was 28. Received my B.S. in 1982
    and my M.B.A. in 1994. If/when I find $35,000.00 I`ll start my Ph.d.
    Good luck.

    I should amend my previous realist opinion on this matter.
    
    If Paul Reubens can make a comeback, then anything's possible!  :-)
    
    Chris

    .32
    
    Paul Reubens is a very funny man, at least in his current recurring
    guest role on Murphy Brown.  Whyizzit that we demand of our movie and
    TV stars and sports heroes untarnished personal lives?  That kind of
    personal gleam wasn't expected of the likes of Clark Gable or Cary
    Grant or Marilyn Monroe.  They were stars, and stars aren't like us
    ordinary folks.

    >They were stars, and stars aren't like us ordinary folks.
    
     I think the peasants are rising up against the celluloid aristocracy
    and demanding that they behave, too.

    .34
    
    Oh, right, how about if the peasants stop sleeping around and snorting
    coke and doing all those other things they're demanding the aristocracy
    stop doing, then.  The only difference is that the peasants don't have
    paparazzi swarming around 'em to catch them in the midst of their dirty
    deeds.

    >> Paul Reubens is a very funny man, at least in his current recurring
    >> guest role on Murphy Brown.  
    
    Oh, I agree completely.  He's extremely talented and creative,
    actually.  I was just expressing amazement that he's managed to
    succeed again in spite of all the negative press.  Good for him!
    
    Even though lots of people contributed to "Pee-Wee's Playhouse",
    he was obviously the primary creative force (if one can believe
    the credits, at least).  This was one of the best Saturday morning
    TV programs I've ever seen.  I hope he does more in the future.
    
    I don't care, for the most part, what he and other celebs do in
    their private lives, especially if it's a "victimless crime" kind
    of thing, as it clearly was in his case.  If they're going around
    killing people, that's another matter, but I don't expect celebs
    or anyone else to be perfect.
    
    Chris

    > I don't care, for the most part, what he and other celebs do in
    > their private lives, especially if it's a "victimless crime" kind
    > of thing, as it clearly was in his case.
    
    Victimless crime? Aren't you the least bit concerned that
    little willie got a good spanking? :-)
    
    -b

    >Oh, right, how about if the peasants stop sleeping around and snorting
    >coke and doing all those other things they're demanding the aristocracy
    >stop doing, then.  
    
     When the peasants get caught doing those things there's hell to pay;
    why should it be any different for the pseudo-aristocracy? Why should
    fame shield one from proper comportment?
    
    >The only difference is that the peasants don't have
    >paparazzi swarming around 'em to catch them in the midst of their dirty
    >deeds.
    
     By the same token, they don't have the paparazzi broadcasting every
    good deed, either.
     

    
    >                       -< Comeback of the decade >-
    > If Paul Reubens can make a comeback, then anything's possible!  :-)

    And don't forget George Foreman.... his opponent did, and it got him
    knocked right on his keaster.

    
    	Paul Reubens is on "Murphy Brown"?
    
    	I guess I'll have to start watching that show again.
    

    .38
    
    > When the peasants get caught doing those things there's hell to pay...
    
    Which has nothing whatever to do with, say, an adulterous husband's
    ability to design computer chips or an adulterous wife's ability to
    perform cancer research.  But the peasants want an adulterous ball-
    player banned from sport because such people aren't fit role models
    for children.  Tough noogies.  Maybe the idea of a role model needs
    a serious readjustment, starting in the home instead of on the back
    streets.

    >But the peasants want an adulterous ball-
    >player banned from sport because such people aren't fit role models
    >for children.
    
     Make that "a few of the peasants." Indeed, I haven't heard any calls
    for banning adulterous ballplayers from any league. Hardly a
    groundswell of popular opinion behind such a notion.

    ahhh, and i always thought that adulterous adults grew from little
    adulterors

re Note 547.29 AIMHI::MARTIN "actually Rob Cashmon, NHPM::CASHMON"

I've reached the conclusion that, while stirring and inspirational, this
perspective is not broad nor comprehensive enough to rationalize persistence,
its modification nor its cessation.

>    It all comes down to love, desire, and just plain I WANT, passions
>    that defy any human understanding.
    
>    If you want something bad enough, if attaining that ideal is important
>    enough to you, then you WILL go after it.  You will chase the ace, and
>    you won't be able to stop yourself from doing so, regardless of the
>    cost to yourself or others.

For any moderately considerate person one of life's toughest choices is
"How much do I give". That confronts one of the things we must grapple with
in life: the blanket statement.

Those passions you speak of may elude human understanding from time to time --
for various reasons -- but I don't think they perforce defy undertanding.

"Maturity is delayed gratification". "Don't be selfish". "Act your age".

How many have times have those maxims surpressed desire (as well as modulated
extreme behavior)? 

It's illogical to pursue something to the point of self-destruction; unless one
can see or is motivated by the possible outcome from sacrifice. From that
viewpoint, time is irrelevant (obviously since one is committing oneself to
eternity); but in a general sense you defeat all reason for striving.

Yes, I think applying those passions are relative.

Will power seems to have been a decisive factor in many cases of conquering a
disability or overcoming a hardship. But cost of achieving a goal is not so
easily dismissed. Nor are the likely competing desires of others which may
conflict.

To say that something is attainable simply by wanting it badly enough is 
a kin to saying "if you've nothing to hide then you shouldn't mind being under
surveillance". 
    
> Dreams of the goal will consume your waking and sleeping hours.
>All other desires will fall away as mere irrelevancies,
>you will keep on, pouring your energies into a void that mocks you

...

>    The kind of passion that drives real achievement is not necessarily
>    a good thing.  After all, Hitler, John Salvi, and the Unabomber all
>    had or have a vision that they persisted in seeking. 

So when does 'passion' cross over into 'obsession'?

Are you saying that 'this kind of passion' is (necessary?, beneficial?,
consequential?)

>    The glory and the rewards don't come from finding the Grail, but
>    merely in seeking it with every ounce of energy you possess.  The
>    realization of your dreams is just gravy.  The chase is, after all,
>    better than the catch.

This is true to an extent but I assure you given my ancestral legacy, the
glory was not in the quest but in the realization. Civil Rights, you understand.

>    If you're trying to make up your mind if you really want something
>    or not, then you don't want it.  If you are willing to give up
>    running the race after the first hurdle, or the fifth, or the
>    tenth, then you might as well have not even started.
    
As I've said, desire and passion certainly are crucial.
But you can really want something and not want things that may be inextricably
linked with it. The old Chinese saying comes to mind "Be careful what you wish
for, you might get it". Principle and ethics are just a couple of the factors
in the equation that can muck it up for you :-) but judging from your other
entries I'm sure you're aware of that.
    
>    There are no lost causes.  Only lost souls, and winners, losers, and
>    those who didn't give enough of a damn to really try.

I give a damn! Really! I do!
    
>    Damn the torpedoes!  Shoot the works!  Cry havoc and let slip the
>    dogs of war!
>    Just do it.
    
Sometimes a great notion.    
                                                     

re:.30

Congratulations. May you find all you seek.

(I would have said 'May you plant all you want' or '...seeds be bountiful' but
I was afraid of what POLAR::RICHARDSON would invent from that).

              eh?
	      /
	  oO)-.
	 /__  _\       
	 \  \(  |      
	  \__|\ {                                             
	  '  '--'   

I knew he wouldn't let me down.

    
    re:.44

    I'm afraid that I cannot agree with you.  I understand what Rob is
    saying, and I firmly believe that he is correct.  When a person makes a
    decision of the magnitude which Rob is taking about, death is the only
    thing that MIGHT slow him or her down.  I know from experience that
    human beings are capable of doing things far beyond rational
    comprehension when they have become (committed, dedicated, passionate,
    obsessed i.e. I'm not sure of the right word) with an objective.

    I hope that you can understand....if not, that's ok, Rob does, I do,
    and maybe a few others out here as well....

    "Those who know can not explain. 
     Those who don't can not understand."

I never said people weren't capable of 'throwing caution to the winds'.

I asked under what circumstances should one do so? I wondered if there were some
categorical guideline one uses to depart one path to take up another.

Brandon,

>I've reached the conclusion that, while stirring and inspirational, this
>perspective is not broad nor comprehensive enough to rationalize persistence,
>its modification nor its cessation.

My note was less an attempt to rationalize persistence than an attempt to
explain it and why it happens, or fails to happen.  I'm trying not to 
put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what you're looking for is a sort
of formula, a checklist, if you will, for how to determine whether to 
fight on or not.  I don't think such an objective thing exists, or can 
exist.

>For any moderately considerate person one of life's toughest choices is
>"How much do I give". That confronts one of the things we must grapple with
>in life: the blanket statement.

See, that's what it all comes down to for me, as seen through my own
filters.  How much do I give?  What's it worth to me?  Can I live without
it, or am I going to be beating myself up for the rest of my life if I 
don't go for it?

It all comes down to passion.  Passion for ideals, passion for the 
imagined rewards to come from this undertaking, passion for having
proved something to others or oneself.  How strong is your desire for
the thing to be attained, or the quest of attainment?

There are people with every different level of passion for every different
thing to be sought.  Some people aren't willing to give up a night's TV
viewing for a certain ideal.  Other people may be willing to spend a night
in jail, or years in prison, or go to the guillotine, or be tortured to
death.  It all depends on the specific ideal, and how much it is worth
to you.

>It's illogical to pursue something to the point of self-destruction; unless one
>can see or is motivated by the possible outcome from sacrifice. From that
>viewpoint, time is irrelevant (obviously since one is committing oneself to
>eternity); but in a general sense you defeat all reason for striving.

Illogical?  Perhaps on a personal level, if one is only going by a strict
cost-benefit analysis.  But there are other benefits to consider, such as
those to society from the work that these martyrs do, and the benefits
to society just from having such committed individuals around to serve
as role models, and to define the extremes.  Maybe if "the great unwashed
masses" are able to observe a few dedicated people striving to excel even
at great personal cost, it will motivate each one of them to try just a
little harder in their own lives, and we all will be better off for it.

>To say that something is attainable simply by wanting it badly enough is 
>a kin to saying "if you've nothing to hide then you shouldn't mind being under
>surveillance". 

I certainly hope I never intimated that all things were attainable.  There
are certainly impossible dreams.  Does this make them any less noble, or
worthy of striving for?  Since you mentioned the example of the Civil
Rights struggle, and I know that is very important to you, let's look
at that.  Are we ever going to win a Final Victory over prejudice, 
bigotry, and intolerance?  No.  Make that a Big No.  The Fuhrmans and
Farrakhans of this world will always be with us.

Does that mean we should pack it in and give up?  Of course not.  What
it does mean is that you issue the troops winter uniforms and tell
them to dig those trenches deep, boys, 'cause it's going to be a long,
hard war.  Instead of always hoping for that one final Blue Ribbon, you
have to learn to savor each small victory as it happens, and keep up
endless and dogged vigilance against your enemies, and any setbacks
or reversals they may inflict on you.

If you decide that the costs are too high, you have effectively 
relinquished the field to the foe, or at least put that much greater
burden on those who are willing to carry on in the struggle.

>So when does 'passion' cross over into 'obsession'?
>Are you saying that 'this kind of passion' is (necessary?, beneficial?,
>consequential?)

The passion/obsession line is going to be defined differently for each
individual, and by each individual.  Some level of it is necessary for
any achievement.  It may be beneficial to oneself or others, it may be
detrimental to oneself or others.  But...it will change the world in
some way, be it good or bad.

There's a guy I know here, a nice guy, who is very proud of the fact
that it never takes him more than ten minutes to read his paper in the
morning.  He scans the front page for any local events, scans the Business
section for any mention of Digital, scans the sports pages for the scores
of the local sports teams.  He doesn't vote, and doesn't care.  He has a
nice quiet family life with few worries or concerns.

To him, any level of passion would be obsession.  Is he right?  I don't
know, and am not qualified to say.  But I do know one thing, and that is
that it would be a much darker, sadder, blander world if everyone was
like him.

Take it for what it's worth.



Rob

Once again, that coincidence factor popped up and I heard a message.

I happened to be flipping for a program last night and caught a portion of
"The Burning Season" which is a story based on the struggle of Brazilian
activist Chico Mendes (Raul Julia in his final performance I think) who fought
to save the rain forests (as much for economic development as out of
environmental concerns).

I hadn't had it on 5 minutes when the movie reached a point where Chico asks
"How do you know when to give up"?

The boy opposite him replied "You don't. You just go down fighting".

So what you're saying Rob appears to be borne out in many scenarios.

Spinnin' wheel, got to go round. Win or lose, you must play.