Conference back40::soapbox

    I didn't know anything about this fight until it was over and everybody
    was chuckling and or snickering and or etc. For me the fight was the
    clearest example of the totally cynical nature of our economic system.
    
    If "workers unite" is the socialist slogan then the capitalist slogan
    should be "people are proud, stupid and ignorant and we like it that
    way"
    chris
    

    
    Love the p-name, Chris. :-)
    
    If Tyson got $25 million for this fight, can you imagine what he'll
    get for a title fight?  His first title defense?  The bout where he
    unifies the belts?
    
    As long as enough people are willing to shell out $50 to watch 
    Tyson beat the snot out of a has-been or never-was, there will
    be no upper limit on sports salaries.
    
    People are proud, stupid, and ignorant -- and I like it that way.
    
    
    
    Rob
                                          

  Yes, let's glorify a convicted rapist.  What fun.





 Jim

    .3
    Not only should Tyson be shuned for crimes against women but I can
    think of others that are glorified and should not be...Daryl
    Strawberry, Steve Howe and Mick Mantel. Why should we glorify drug
    addicts and drunks? 

    I got a kick out of when he mentioned finding his god and 
    something about fighting all in one sentence after the match.  
    
    What was the trash music they played when he entered the 
    arena?   I may be wrong but the rap stuff sounded rather 
    degrading to women.     
    
    I had a friend who wasted $40 bucks on this - what a complete
    waste.   
    

    
    
    Forty bucks ain't nuthin....
    
    Think about those rubes what paid $600 american for the privilege of
    being there in person...
    
     I feel reaaaaaaaaal sorry for them, yes I do!! 
    
     They're almost as bad as the MLB sheep...
    

     The more honest of them said that they didn't come to see the fight,
    they came to enjoy the party.

	If Tonya Harding could be banned in all [non]/professional events for 
her crime, I am surprised why Tyson isn't. Is rape a less crime than what 
Tanya did?

	Rape is considered on par with murder in many other countries.

If I'm not mistaken, Tonya was banned by the skating organization.  They want
skating to have a squeaky-clean image.  Obviously boxing organizations don't
want boxing to have such an image.

    .8
    
    You see, in boxing (or is that 'boxing?) it's perfectly fine (and
    encouraged) to beat the crap out of your opponent.
    

>	If Tonya Harding could be banned in all [non]/professional events for 
>her crime, I am surprised why Tyson isn't. Is rape a less crime than what 
>Tanya did?
    
     Tanya's crime was an attack on a competitor, Tyson's crime was an
    attack on someone who had nothing to do with boxing. Nobody has accused
    Tyson of raping Ms Washington to obtain a competitive advantage in
    boxing. Had Tyson attempted to get his competition's leg broken outside
    of the ring, one suspects he might not be so warmly welcomed back into
    the boxing fraternity. Of course, one must not ignore the monetary
    issues as well; Tyson has tremendous drawing power as is evidenced by
    saturday's sham of a travesty of a travesty of a sham. People paid good
    money for that silliness. If Harding stood to make the controllers of
    US figure skating an obscene amount of money for a few seconds' work,
    you might well have seen waffling on her lifetime ban...
    

    
      $600 for a 90 second fight ?  That's...
    
      Or think - $25M/90 sec.  Should we raise the minimum wage ?
    
      bb

	Hmmm.. I get it..!

Skating is sport for humans much like Tennis, Cricket, BasketBall, Soccer 
etc... So all civilised laws apply

	Boxing (and Wrestling?) is much like the Roman circus. Its a way of
life for beasts like lions, wild dogs and humans with high testosterene(sp?) 
levels. So all 'natural survival laws of species' apply. A violent past record 
is better and appreciated!

    
    >People paid good money for that silliness. 

    Me, I'm short on sympathy for the people who willingly contributed to
    a $25-million purse for the rapist.
    
    As Nelson (of The Simpsons) would say:
    
    "HAW haw"
    

    
    um, is this a good time to bring up the question as to how mike
    tyson raped ms. washington when she admitted on the stand that
    she was "on top"? i didn't think so...
    
    -b

    
    
    A jury of your peers evidently thought otherwise...
    

    Hmm... Testostyrene... Ain't that wot they mold them "Facial Relaxer"
                           vibrators outta??
    
    Inqyryng mynds want to know...
    

    >um, is this a good time to bring up the question as to how mike
    >tyson raped ms. washington when she admitted on the stand that
    >she was "on top"? i didn't think so...
    
     I didn't want to debate the justice in the verdict, but, to be honest,
    there has always been something about that case that did not ring true
    to me. And Ms Washington's perjury (no, I don't have a lawyer lined up
    for a civil case) did nothing but add to the dissonance.

    
    I saw the fight.  What a circus.   I thought McNeeley really was
    trying to do his best, but hey, if he got knocked down a third time,
    he wouldn't be allowed to fight for 3 months, and to this I saw it
    was purely an economic reason, not a concern about his welfare.
    
    3 months of not working puts a damper on things. So, he gets in
    the ring with Tyson, gets a a 1:29 of glory, lands a couple of punches,
    and comes out and rolls on this for some other fights.
    
    If he had been knocked down again, in 3 months everyone would have
    forgotten who he was.
    
    Did you see Mike's eyes as McNeeley was just swaying back and fourth?
    They just kept following him.
    
    And then his praises to Aliah and god when he was interviewed was a bit
    much. Even Ali did preached!!!
    
    Mary
    

    Pete Rose gets banned for life just for putting some spare change down
    on a friendly wager.  No rape, no beating, no assault....no Hall of
    Fame.
    
    Da boyz running da fight game sure take care of their own don't they?
    
    

    Not that I am a Mike Tyson fan, but the man went to jail, served his
    time, I do not understand what the big deal is about him going back
    into the ring.  So are you all saying that anyone who committs a crime
    should not be entitled to return to there previous employment?  Or is
    it that anyone in the public eye or who can make this type of money
    should be banned from that profession?  	 

    RE: .23
    
    They are just jealous that they can't make $25Mil. The same people who
    talk about reabilitation in prisons seem to be the same people who want
    to cut of the ex-con's livelihood. Sounds to me like the prison system
    worked well. Tyson has been punished for his crimes and has now
    returned to society, with a job and everything. Sounds good to me.

    
    >um, is this a good time to bring up the question as to how mike
    >tyson raped ms. washington when she admitted on the stand that
    >she was "on top"? i didn't think so...
     
    Try not to be such a moron, bri.  If someone twice your size and weight
    wants to rape you, you can be on top, on bottom, sideways, standing on
    your head, it doesn't make a difference.
    
    My comment has nothing to do with Mike Tyson and Desiree Washington 
    at all, btw.
    
    
    

        >Try not to be such a moron, bri.

    for you, mz. "men think with their penises, but i'm not sexist", i will
    try... :-)

    >                                If someone twice your size and weight
    >wants to rape you, you can be on top, on bottom, sideways, standing on
    >your head, it doesn't make a difference.

    while it is indeed possible, for me, hearing her say (paraphrasing
    of course): "i got naked on my own, and i was on top, but i was
    raped..." might have contributed toward reasonable doubt. of course,
    your mileage obviously varies...

    -b

    
    >for you, mz. "men think with their penises, but i'm not sexist", i will
    >try... :-)

    Ah, lack-of-comprehension alert.  I have never said that men think with
    their penises.  What I have said is that [too many] men think that one 
    needs a penis or else one is inferior.  
    
    >while it is indeed possible, for me, hearing her say (paraphrasing
    >of course): "i got naked on my own, and i was on top, but i was
    >raped..." might have contributed toward reasonable doubt. of course,
    >your mileage obviously varies...

    "Obviously" it does not.  Did you not understand this sentence:
    
    >>My comment has nothing to do with Mike Tyson and Desiree Washington 
    >>at all, btw.
    
    I'm talking about _rape_, which, if you don't know, is unwanted sexual
    congress.  I made it clear I wasn't talking about Mike Tyson & Desiree 
    Washington specifically.  I never let the topic of a note overly influence 
    my conversations 8^).
    
    

    .24
    
    >The same people who talk about reabilitation in prisons seem to be the 
    >same people who want to cut of the ex-con's livelihood.

    Well, as long as the broad brushes are in full swing, how about this:
    
    The people who talk about publicly identifying sex offenders when they
    get released from prison seem to be the same people who want to - I don't
    even think "forgive" is the right word - they want to ignore (as if it
    never happened) Tyson's crime.  The same people who would trust juries
    to deliver a verdict of death seem to believe that Tyson was unjustly
    convicted.

    >Tyson has been punished for his crimes and has now
    >returned to society, with a job and everything. Sounds good to me.

    Sounds good, sure.  If only it were that easy for *most* sex offenders.

    IMHO, a little remorse would look good on him.  It might help me to 
    believe that some "rehabilitation in prisons" had occured.

    jc
    

    >The people who talk about publicly identifying sex offenders when they
    >get released from prison seem to be the same people who want to - I
    >don't even think "forgive" is the right word - they want to ignore (as
    >if it never happened) Tyson's crime. 
    
    I can't imagine any convicted sex offender being more publicly
    identified than Tyson.

    -1 not even Jeffery D.?

    
    .29
    
    >I can't imagine any convicted sex offender being more publicly
    >identified than Tyson.
    
    This is true, Jim, but that's not my point.  My point is that the
    mistrust and contempt that people normally harbour for sex offenders
    is a little scarcer than I would hope, and a good deal of it still
    seems to be reserved for Ms. Washington.
    

    .31
    Agreed.
    
    .30
    Wasn't he only convicted of murder? (a technicality.)

    
    re. .22
    
    We just had this discussion at the Soxs/Yankees game last week where
    the crowd was booing Daryl Strawberry.  I made that exact comment that
    Pete Rose gets banned for life for gambling (and not proven if it
    was own his own team) and someone like Strawberry, whose been sacked
    because of drug problems keeps getting another chance, over and over
    again.
    
    Something is just not right with this picture.
    
    Tyson, again, is mixed up with the wrong folks, although he is
    portraying himself as a "humble" man he's still with King, who is
    trouble.
    
    I bet it won't belong before you see Mikey in trouble again. It is just
    a matter of time.
    
    Mary
    

    >Ah, lack-of-comprehension alert.  I have never said that men think with
    >their penises.  What I have said is that [too many] men think that one 
    >needs a penis or else one is inferior.  

    no lack of comprehension on my part, i assure you... my comment
    was an example of the soapbox phenomenon of taking something
    out of context, pushing it toward the extreme end of the spectrum,
    and broad-brushing the originator with it; all in the quest for a
    snickering high five from the adoring soapbox masses... but i
    can understand your not groking this, seeing as you would never
    think of such a thing yourself ({cough} {oo er} {etc.}) :-)

    >"Obviously" it does not.  Did you not understand this sentence:

    again, i understand just fine. what you do not seem to understand
    is the fact that i wasn't talking to you in the first place;
    i was engaging in that most rare of soapbox activities, namely
    commenting on the subject of the note itself. just thinking aloud,
    as it were, with virtually no penis power involved... :-)

    -b

    
    I think "thinking aloud" is not allowed.
                            

    
    Oh, I see.  So when you said "YOUR mileage obviously varies" you were
    talking about everyone in soapbox, but not to me.
    
    Perhaps you should have said "ONE'S mileage obviously varies".  That
    would have been more accurate.  However, that would call for _thinking_
    aloud, not just _talking_ aloud, which is what you are wont to do 8^).
    

    
    TAKE IT TO THE RING!!!!
    
    ;^)
    

    
    Oh, a ring!  Size 5, please, and I like opals 8^).
    
    
    

	.34  what a load of cow doots.  (in my opinion, andrew.)

    
    mz. deb,

    this is supposed to be a happy occasion, let's not argue over
    who raped who... :-) :-)

    now, i fully understand that your comment had nothing to do with
    tyson/washington, and you (hopefully) fully understand that my
    comment was _only_ about tyson/washington... but given all of
    this, would you mind answering a question for me?

    q: do you believe mike tyson raped desiree washington?

    my anwer: i believe reasonable doubt exists, and he should not
       have been convicted.

    -b

    
    I didn't follow the trial, sorry.  I have no answer.

    >	.34  what a load of cow doots.  (in my opinion, andrew.)
    
    there ya' go with them cow doots again... would you be so
    kind as to explain to me what was so "dootish" about it?
    
    -b

    She doots on ya, Brian.  Pure & simple.  It's a pheromonal thing.
    

    
>>    there ya' go with them cow doots again... would you be so
>>    kind as to explain to me what was so "dootish" about it?

	trying to blame what was clearly directed at mz deb on
	soapbox phenomena.  back-pedaling to beat the band.
	tr�s dootish.  in fact, you out-dooted yourself.

	(in my opinion, andrew)

re Pete Rose:

Athletes who gamble have been known to throw games.  This is why Pete Rose
was treated so harshly.

    
    So...how's McNeely going to be treated?
    

    
    lady di,

    seeing as you are predisposed to think the absolute worst of me,
    i suppose it never has, nor ever will, occur to you that perhaps
    i was kidding around a little bit... i mean, i know that i've
    never made, or attempted to make, a joke in soapbox, so your
    surprise that i should attempt to do so now is duly noted; but
    maybe, just maybe, this one time things are not as you assume...
    a wild assertion, i know, given your omnipotence and all; and,
    of course, submitted on bent knee with the utmost of humility,
    and fully worthy, i'm sure, of all dootish contempt that you
    see fit to heap upon it...

    -b

    
    Di....
    
    >(in my opinion, andrew)
    
    
     Wouldn't "Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmm" be easier to type???
    
    :) :) :)
    

    
    course, she also called you andrew, but what the heck.

    
>>    course, she also called you andrew, but what the heck.

	I happen to like the name Andrew.  There's not much extra
	effort involved there. ;>

    >   A task made not terribly difficult by many of your contributions.
    
    get thee to a bidet, sir schistoplaste, and cleanse thy mind...
    
    -b

	.47  what's with all this predisposition and omnipotence
	     crapola?  i don't buy what you said in .34.  i don't
	     buy what a lot of people say in this forum.  back-pedaling
	     is an art form here.  

>re Pete Rose:

>Athletes who gamble have been known to throw games.  This is why Pete Rose
>was treated so harshly.

     Pete Rose was never accused of betting against his team, although he
     was accused of betting on games in which he played.

     Bill

    
    .47  "i don't buy what a lot of people say in this forum."

    a thousand pardons, but you seem to have little coin of the
    realm for anything i think/say/do/wear/grow/admire/desire/
    enjoy/despise/fondle/abuse/grope or otherwise cast an
    opinion on.

    -b

  .55  that's not true!!  i thought you were right about Garcia,
       for instance. ;>  seriously, i usually think your opinions
       are well thought out and i generally admire your forthrightness,
       regardless of whether or not i agree with you.  i often don't,
       but there's no reason that i should or that i should refrain
       from expressing that.  

    >                                                 i often don't,
    >   but there's no reason that i should or that i should refrain
    >   from expressing that.
    
    you're right... but saying "i disagree with you" and (paraphrasing)
    "you're full of $#!+" has a slightly different ring to it... :-) :-)
    
    -b

    
    ...which brings us back to "soapbox phenomena".
    
    :^)
    

    
>>    you're right... but saying "i disagree with you" and (paraphrasing)
>>    "you're full of $#!+" has a slightly different ring to it... :-) :-)

	oh, but i wasn't referring to that.  i didn't disagree with
	your .34.  i said i thought it was a load of cow doots and i still
	think that. ;>  

    
    <------
    
    In your opinion of course...
    
     :) :) :) :) :)
    

    No, in somebody else's opinion.

    anyone else get the feeling that McNeely is much younger than his
    years?

    
      Lessee, $25M/90sec = 1.0 Gigabucks/hour, right ?
    
      bb

    
    This McNeely, he some sort of ballplayer?

    He's a diva.

 .65  aria sure?

    Re: .63, Mike earning 1.0 Gigabucks in an hour...
    
    Now considering that Bill Gates is worth 9 times that much leads me to
    believe that we're paying computer people too much, or our prized
    athletes not enough.
    
    -- Jim

    McNeely made how much?
    
    Who cares if he needs to sit out 3 months if he hits the canvas
    a 3rd time.
    
    As for Tyson, I could care less how much he makes.   What PO's me is
    that people pay money to watch and that boxing has such a worthless
    code of conduct.   The man is still a convicted RAPIST isn't he? 
    
    Another thing - he found God !    what was the background RAP playing 
    when he entered the arena anyway?    Should a person who finds a GOD 
    be listening to this type of music/RAP or is this I found GOD a put on? 
    
    I hear there are some investigations going on about this fight...

>What PO's me is that people pay money to watch and that boxing has such a 
>    worthless code of conduct.
    
    Why does it bother you what other people spend their money on? Don't
    wanna watch? Don't watch.
    
>The man is still a convicted RAPIST isn't he? 
    
     Did he serve his time, or did he not? What's he supposed to do for the
    rest of his life? Turn to crime?
    
>Should a person who finds a GOD 
    >be listening to this type of music/RAP or is this I found GOD a put on? 
    
     Who said he picked the music? What difference is it to you what he
    listens to? Who are you to judge his religious beliefs?

>    McNeely made how much?

On paper, $700K.  But after agents' cuts, taxes, etc., maybe $200K.

    
    He didn't earn a penny.   :^)
    

    .70            
    
    What-he did not have any say in the intro music - get real...
    
    I suspect he has not found GOD and is putting this one on.  HE 
    IS A RICH FAKE who is on parole!  
    
    Many other sports give people who GAMBLE, TAKE DRUGS the BOOT!
    
    This is America you can do anything you want.    My take on this
    is that people seem to not care anymore about little things like
    what sort of people we LOOK UP TO.
    
    It used to be that Sport HEROES had some redeeming qualities.   SPORTs
    used to insure this by weeding out the anyone who went out of bounds.
    
    Apparently BOXING (AKA DON KING) could really care less if he
    RAPES SOMEONE!       

    Curious - what were the words to the song?
    
    Bare with me - I cannot translate RAP.

    In some countries, even this one at one time, people used to respect
    those things that were respectable in other people, and ignore the
    rest, e.g., if the president ran the country well, then it didn't
    matter what he did in his private life, or if a sports figure excelled
    at a sport, then his private life didn't matter.
    
    But in recent decades we have for some reason decided that nobody can
    do anything worthy of respect unless they are also a saint in every
    other aspect of their lives.
    
    What a crock.  Thanks a lot, media.

    .69
    
    > Another thing - he found God !    what was the background RAP playing
    > when he entered the arena anyway?
    
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and speculate that you
    must be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there are rap artists
    whose themes are religious.  Christian, even, and possibly Islamic as
    well.

    .76     What a crock.
    
    Really  - the man RAPEs someone and gets 3 years gets out and puts
    on this I found GOD thing and everything blows over.  

    .77 I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and speculate that
    .77 you must be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there are rap artists
    .77 whose themes are religious.  Christian, even, and possibly Islamic
    .77  as well.
    
    All I want to know is what the words were?   
    

I heard McNeely's "rap" prior to the fight.

It went something like this:

	"I'm Pete McNeely from Medfield Mass.

	Come watch me kick Tyson's ass

	If you haven't made your pay-per-view arrangements

	Make them soon

	Cause you know what'll happen

	When I wrap you in my cocoon".

>>                     <<< Note 524.75 by CSC32::C_BENNETT >>>
    
>>    Bare with me - ...

	you first.

    .70 ( I think)
    If he were in N.J. he would be a registed sex offender and ever one in
    the neighborhood would have to be notified. Where does Tyson claim home
    these days.

    >    Really  - the man RAPEs someone and gets 3 years gets out and puts
    >    on this I found GOD thing and everything blows over.
    
    You are incapable of respecting the man's fighting ability while at the
    same time not respecting his other actions?
    
    why is that?

    .83 You are incapable of respecting the man's fighting ability while at
    .83 the same time not respecting his other actions?
    
    Hey he is a good fighter who should not be looked up to because at the
    same time is a convicted RAPIST.   
    
    Pete Rose was a great baseball player to.   Baseball and gambling don't
    mix.   
    
    Darrel Strawberry was a pretty good to.   Baseball and cocaine use
    don't mix.  
    
    
    My list could go on and on...  My point is that BOXING and RAPE
    apparently go together.   In my opinion he should have been banned from
    all competion. 

> My point is that BOXING and RAPE apparently go together.

I don't follow.

>>         <<< Note 524.85 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>
>>I don't follow.

	that is because you are sane.  hth.

re: .70

>>    Why does it bother you what other people spend their money on? Don't
>>    wanna watch? Don't watch.
  
	Sure it does bother me.. because I am concerned about the society
which I am in... it bothers me to note that the society I live in glorifies
a criminal - a RAPIST -


>>    Did he serve his time, or did he not? What's he supposed to do for the
>>    rest of his life? Turn to crime?

	I don't care what he does.. but public adolation.. NO!  

re: .84
    
>>    My list could go on and on...  My point is that BOXING and RAPE
>>    apparently go together.   

	The of course go together.. because.... (read  .15)

    >I don't follow.
    
     Attempting to make sense out of a frother is, well, somewhat less than
    fruitful.

						re: --------------->

>	that is because you are sane.  hth.

Shall we discuss my views on capital punishment and violent crime again, then?

:^)

    >I don't follow.

	You don't because you are refusing to see the full picture! 

    Actually, I kinda like the way this went.  All of the money
    came directly from the people who were interested in watching
    the event, either in-person (big bucks!) or on pay-per-view.
    There was none of the network or mass-market cable Big Lie
    that "everyone's interested in this, so we'll all pay for it",
    the way that baseball, football, and the other sports rip us
    off.
    
    If you bought into watching this, and felt cheated, then maybe
    you'll think twice about doing it next time, but you'll have
    that choice, and that's as it should be.  The way most sports
    on TV works, we don't have that opportunity.  We all have to
    buy into it (through product advertising costs) whether we want
    to watch it or boycott it.
    
    Let the Free Market do its thing.  If there are people who want
    to idolize Tyson and pay for the privilege, let 'em have all
    they can get.
    
    Chris

    .90
    
    Or perhaps because it is because you are seeing things where there is
    nothing to see.

    -1 how true Doctah. after all no one has even mentioned the larger
       than life role models of the Babe and Cobb... let's burn 'em down
       for the low life scumbag sports figure that they all are... 

>>         <<< Note 524.86 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>>Shall we discuss my views on capital punishment and violent crime again, then?

	Sure.  Would you care to step outside?  

    >I don't care what he does.. but public adolation.. NO!
    
     You're being less than truthful. You most certainly DO care what he
    does. All he was doing was going back to his job. And this prompted
    much handwringing from you and others.
    
     And how, exactly, has he been "glorified"? Because lots of people
    spent a lot of money to see him beat somebody up? That constitutes
    "glorification"?
    
     How many kids do you see going around saying that they want to be
    "just like Mike Tyson, raping women and going to prison"?

>                           -< it's really nice out >-

Great! Let's leave it out, then.

    >Great! Let's leave it out, then.
    
     Cookout at lucky Jack's!
    

>	"I'm Pete McNeely from Medfield Mass.

I thought he's from Meffid.

>>I thought he's from Meffid.

	no.

    
    > Let the Free Market do its thing.  If there are people who want
    > to idolize Tyson and pay for the privilege, let 'em have all
    > they can get.
    
    I don't think "people who want to idolize Tyson" is the right phrase,
    I think the right phrase would be something like "people who want to
    watch a good fighter fight"
    

Oh.  Some of these towns ought to change their names.  How am I supposed
to differentiate Medford, Medfield, Medway and Milford?

    
    
    RE: .76  I understand your point, but there's a few million miles
    between a rapist and someone falling short of sainthood.  
    
    
    Mike

    re. 1
    
    If everyone is so stupid, then you should not have any problem getting
    rich.
    

    _in re_ Meddybemps -- Methought 'twas in coastal Maine, giving rise to
    the Bowdoin College _a capella_ group, "The Meddybempsters?"  Don't
    tell me in Meddybemps they are yet another buncha EuroCopyCatz...
    
    Oh, you say that you meant Calais MAINE?  Aiee!!!! :-)
    

    
    
    RE .104 huh?

    With Tyson it is more or less an academic question, but the question
    of whether a person's behavior in one area should sway our judgement
    of him/her in other areas becomes more important when we are talking 
    about a company president, or a country president, or a school board 
    member, or a congresscritter, or an airplane pilot.
    
    In those cases, how they do their jobs can affect your entire future,
    your income, your safety, even your life, and those of your loved ones. 
    
    Which plane would you choose to fly on if you had only two choices --
    one piloted by an expert pilot who is also a rapist, or a mediocre
    pilot who is always polite to the opposite sex?
    
    Who would you rather have leading our country -- an aggressive person
    who never gives up and always wins in conflicts with other people but
    who has some sexual transgressions in their past, or a passive, polite,
    considerate doormat who would never say or do anything that might
    offend anyone?
    
    The very characteristics that make some people effective leaders, 
    fighters, etc., also make them more likely to violate the finer
    sensibilities of today's politically correct American society.
    
    Don't get me wrong -- I'm not defending anyone who brutally rapes
    someone, if that's what he did.  But Mike Tyson is still a good fighter.
    
    Besides, idolizing or demonizing people is for kids anyway.  :-) 

    re: .107
    
    								-mr. bill

    Get real folks, this whole thing was about the Almighty Dollar.
    I'm a sports fan, but not of boxing.  When I read an article
    before the fight indicating that McNeely wasn't ranked, had won
    $500 for his previous fight I figured "OK, guess the guy's willing
    to have his brains beat out for $800,000; hope it's over quick".
    
    After the fight was over and I saw a clip of McNeely talking about
    his ring manager saying "I love Vince, man he saved my life" (repeat
    over and over about 6 times), then I realized someone had already
    beaten his brains in/out before Tyson ever got to him.
    
    If people feel "had" because they paid to see this sham, they have
    no one to blame but themselves.  If Tyson is serious about his return,
    let him fight a REAL contender the next time.
    
    

    
    I find it amazing that some people are so upset about the fact that
    a convicted criminal is also a celebrated athlete.  Since when has
    the possession of excellent moral character been a necessary 
    attribute for sportsmen?
    
    You're expecting way too much of these people.  Professional athletes
    are just folks who are very good at throwing a ball, catching a ball,
    running fast, and, in Tyson's case, beating people up.  They're not
    priests, for cryin' out loud.
    
    The athletes of the past could get away with more because the media
    was willing to look the other way.  As other noters have mentioned,
    sportsmen like Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, or even Mickey Mantle would get
    torn apart by today's "Hard Copy" fueled media circus.
    
    And for the person who referred to Daryll Strawberry, i.e. "baseball
    and cocaine don't go together," howls of derisive laughter.  YOU try
    to get up for every game of an 170 game season without using 
    coke or amphetamines, when every sportscaster in town is only 
    waiting for the slightest misstep to label you a "bum" or "quitter,"
    etc.  Except for a very few genetic freaks, drug use -- be it steroids,
    speed, beta blockers, beta agonists, painkillers, or any of a 
    thousand different compounds -- is a necessary (but insufficient)
    condition for professional athletes in this day and age.  If you
    believe otherwise, well, I hope the weather's nice over there in 
    Fantasyland.
    
    No matter what your sport is, there is a drug out there that will
    make you better at it.  If you do not use it, the next guy will,
    and he will take your place on the roster.
    
    If you want to read a good book on the subject, check out the book
    by Dr. Robert Voy, former head of drug testing for the International
    Olympic Committee, who quit his job in protest over the token, 
    ineffectual testing he was permitted to do, which had little impact
    on the pandemic use of drugs by Olympic athletes.  Athletes who 
    fail drug tests are either stupid, lazy, badly coached on how to 
    pass the drug test, or already in political trouble with the officials
    when they take the test.
    
    The long and short of it is:  if you enjoy the game, enjoy the game.
    Don't get all worked up about making these guys into role models, 
    because they are just good at throwing a ball, catching a ball, 
    running fast, or beating people up.  Period.  Anything else is
    just gravy.
    
    
    
    Rob
    

    -1 i was with ya 100% 'till you threw the use of legal drugs in the
       same bucket as stuff like coke and alluding to those things as
       necessary to "stay up for a game" as a professional. 
    
       me thinks you've dipped your tootsie into fantasy-land a little...
    
       on a scale of 1 - 10 i give the note a 7, but you still can't dance
       to it.

    
    Hey, I'll take a 7!  That's fine by me.
    
    re:  Fantasyland -- I only wish I was deluded, but the problems are,
    infortunately, all too real.
    
    Believe me, I didn't even want to start on the really scary stuff,
    like strychnine (or, since you're a cyclist, you may have heard of
    erythropoetin, EPO.  Ever notice how every year since the '60's, a
    whole bunch of world-class cyclists go to bed at night -- and never
    wake up again?)
    
    
    Rob
    
    Rob
    

    Well, 
    
    Rob
    
    Rob,
    
    does does this this have have any any implications implications for for
    your your own own personal personal pharmacop�ia pharmacop�ia
    
    ?
    
    ?
    :-)
    

    
    .111, Rob:
    
    >You're expecting way too much of these people.
    
    I dunno, Rob.  I don't think that expecting people to NOT rape 
    other people is expecting too much.
    
    Call me wacky.
    

    It's an eye problem -- when Mike Tyson is in the ring, some people see
    a boxer, others see a rapist.  
    
    Perhaps those who see a boxer are more interested in the sport than
    they are in whatever else the man does.  Or did.
    
    How many football fans got enthralled (or hung up) about Rosie Greer's
    hobby?

>    Apparently BOXING (AKA DON KING) could really care less if 
>    RAPES SOMEONE!       

	Why would you expect Don King, a convicted killer, to
care?

mc

    
    .116
    
    I don't see a `rapist', I see an `unrepentant rapist', and that says
    to me that he just does not *get it*.  And when people line up to give
    him their cash, I see no reason why he *should* get it.
    
    Maybe after this latest "fight", the fans will hang onto their wallets
    a little tighter.
    
    Sorry.  Some people in here just can't let go of Ted Kennedy's night 
    in the drink; some can't let go of Clinton's "draft-dodging, dope-
    smoking, womanizing" ways; some can't let go of Newt's divorce.
    
    We all have our pet peeves.
    
    This week, Tyson is mine.
    
    jc
    

Well, anyway, interesting choice of arm tattoos...
Mao and Arthur Ashe.  Mao, for his persistence,
Ashe, for his courage.

    
    Hey joan,
    
    
    WACKY
    
    
    
    
    Your Welcome!

    AIMHI::MARTIN "actually Rob Cashmon, NHPM::CASHMON"  51 lines  23-AUG-1995 03:35
    
    .111 YOU try to get up for every game of an 170 game season without using
    .111 coke or amphetamines, when every sportscaster in town is only
    .111 waiting for the slightest misstep to label you a "bum" or
    .111 "quitter,"  etc.
    
    Man you are way off base.    EVERY baseball player DOES NOT use cocaine
    nor do they need to.  Matter of fact EVERY baseball player can play
    just fine WITHOUT cocaine - have for years and will for years.  
    
    In addition to propose that it is "necessary condition for professional
    athletes in this day and age" demonstrates that you are indeed in 
    "Fantasyland".   
    
    .111 Athletes who  fail drug tests are either stupid, lazy, badly coached on how to
    .111 pass the drug test, or already in political trouble with the
    .111 officials when they take the test.
    
    Wrong again - athletes caught doing drugs simply lack the self respect
    for themselves and lack self restraint.
    
    .111    The long and short of it is:  if you enjoy the game, enjoy the
    .111    game. Don't get all worked up about making these guys into role models,
    .111    because they are just good at throwing a ball, catching a ball,
    .111    running fast, or beating people up.  Period.  Anything else is
    .111    just gravy.
    
    Fact of the matter is that kids do indeed look up to people in professional
    sports as demostrated by trading cards, getting an autograph, wearing
    team colors, etc...   They attempt to emulate them also.    This is why
    it is so important to insure that the people in sports reflect good
    morale character.  

    >I don't see a `rapist', I see an `unrepentant rapist', and that says
    >to me that he just does not *get it*.  
    
     Let me axe you a hypothetical: if you were set up and convicted of a
    crime you didn't actually commit, just how "repentant" would you be?
    
     And FWIW- Tyson seems different to me than when he went in, though I
    admit I haven't been paying strict attention.
    
    >And when people line up to give
    >him their cash, I see no reason why he *should* get it.
    
     You've always had this really funny set of ideas about money, like who
    should be allowed to keep what they earn, who should get some for
    nothing, what people ought to be allowed to spend their own money on...
    
    >Maybe after this latest "fight", the fans will hang onto their wallets
    >a little tighter.
    
     Man, you don't let reality get in the way of your dreams, do ya? The
    people that paid money to see him fight will pay even more to see him
    fight a real opponent. Tyson vs Foreman? Biggus bucksus.
    
    

    >And for the person who referred to Daryll Strawberry, i.e. "baseball
    >and cocaine don't go together," howls of derisive laughter.  YOU try
    >to get up for every game of an 170 game season without using 
    >coke or amphetamines, 
    
     Yes, then NO! Of course "<any professional sport> and <any drug, legal
    or not>" go together. These people are paid obscene amounts of money
    to PLAY GAMES. That they engage in other pursuits that don't exactly
    ground them in the real world is quite predictable, and not especially
    noteworthy. However, claiming that they someone need to do so is
    absurd; try living in the real world day in and day out, barely
    scraping by, dealing with job stress, financial stress, children,
    crime, the gummint, etc. We the people who work for a living, we are
    the ones who can make a better case for "needing" drugs, and we don't
    need drugs either. If you can't imagine getting "up" for a 170 game
    season, then you are clearly not a competitor, nor do you have any
    insight into the mind of a competitor. Competitors don't need a reason
    to get up for a game; the competition is enough. Pride is enough. The
    will to win is enough.

>Tyson vs Foreman? Biggus bucksus.

oooo, hope not.  that would be brutal...anyway
i think george is getting out of the bidness soon
(if he hasn't retired already).

Hey, I read an interesting story about Tyson.
Once, when his brother was sleeping, Mike slit his
arm open with a razor blade and poured rubbing 
alcohol on it just so he could watch his brother
scream.

Fun, huh?

    >athletes caught doing drugs simply lack the self respect
    >for themselves and lack self restraint.
    
     Silliness. A misguided and mistaken sense of moral propriety. I guess
    you must be a non-smoking teetotaller. Not that makes you in any way
    superior to one who chooses differently, but at least that would
    keeping you from adding hypocrisy to the list of your shortcomings.
    
    >Fact of the matter is that kids do indeed look up to people in professional
    >sports as demostrated by trading cards, getting an autograph, wearing
    >team colors, etc...   They attempt to emulate them also.    This is why
    >it is so important to insure that the people in sports reflect good
    >morale character.  
    
     You want the tail to wag the dog. Try fixing the root problem, that
    sports stars are looked up to as role models and then you'll find that
    insisting that they uphold a skewed sense of moral superiority is
    completely unnecessary. Trying to force sports stars to uphold higher
    moral standards than the rest of us because kids look up to them is
    like handing a car owner a set of earplugs when they take their car in
    to get the funny noise fixed.
    

    .125  I guess you must be a non-smoking teetotaller.
    	
    	ya right! haha 
    
    .125 Trying to force sports stars to uphold higher
    .125 moral standards than the rest of us because kids look up to them is
    .125 like handing a car owner a set of earplugs when they take their car
    .125 in to get the funny noise fixed.
    
    O - my mistake - its not "moral standards" its obeying the law.   As in
    obeying the same laws you and I do.    Or to put it another way - 
    the laws we hopefully teach our children to obey.   

    .122
    
    >Let me axe you a hypothetical: if you were set up and convicted of a
    >crime you didn't actually commit, just how "repentant" would you be?

    Well, that *does* seem to be what this boils down to, doesn't it.  Some
    people just don't believe that he's guilty.  Obviously, there was little
    "reasonable doubt" in the minds of the judge (who believed there was
    enough evidence to rate a trial) and the jury (who convicted him).
    
    What happened with his appeal?  Was it disallowed, or did he simply
    decide that the prison time would be better than clearing his name?
    
    >And FWIW- Tyson seems different to me than when he went in, though I
    >admit I haven't been paying strict attention.
    
    Apart from the "found God" stuff, I don't see much difference.  I'd
    *like* to see him settle the suit with Ms. Washington, preferably to
    the benefit of some rape crisis centre or battered women's shelter,
    rather than the bank account of Ms. Washington.  But there, that would
    be one of my "funny ideas about money".

    >like who should be allowed to keep what they earn,
    >who should get some for nothing, 

    This is interesting.  I'm not sure what this is based on.  My views on
    welfare?  Minimum wage?  Taxation?  Bill Gates?  Perhaps this is a 
    rathole, but I'm game if you are.

    >what people ought to be allowed to spend their own money on...

    If this is in reference to the fight, then I should clarify:  I think
    everyone involved is a willing participant, so there are no victims. 
    I don't think I ever stated that people shouldn't be "allowed" to spend
    their money on the fight, but I think the fact that they *did* doesn't
    reflect well upon them.
    
    >Man, you don't let reality get in the way of your dreams, do ya?

    I think everyone here has hopes that don't seem to gel with the goings-
    on in this world; even you, Doctah.  But that fight *must* have left a
    bad taste in the mouths of some fans, just as the baseball strike did.
    Will they pay for Tyson-Foreman?  Probably.  People paid for pet rocks,
    too.

    jc

    
    > Fact of the matter is that kids do indeed look up to people in professional
    > sports as demonstrated by trading cards, getting an autograph, wearing
    > team colors, etc...   They attempt to emulate them also.    This is why

    Interesting thought, how 'bout have your kids look up to YOU as a
    person to emulate, rather than a sports star..... Maybe I'm too radical
    for you.

    
      Same old, same old.  Any accomplishment, and the goldbricks swarm,
     each with their pitbull lawyers on a leash.  I have no idea if this
     was a planned scam, but it has the odor.  All those millions sure
     bring out the class-A sharpies, don't they ?
    
      bb

    .126
    
    > its not "moral standards" its obeying the law.
    
    	One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just
    	laws.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust
    	laws.
    
    				- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
    
    There is a lot to be said for the argument that broad-based lawas
    prohibiting the recreational use of certain drugs are unjust.  Alcohol
    is a drug, yet it's legal.  Nicotine is a drug, yet it's legal.
    
    IMHO, your legal argument is shot full of holes.

    >    .125  I guess you must be a non-smoking teetotaller.
    
    >        ya right! haha
    
     I'm truly shocked by this revelation. :-)

    .128
    
    > how 'bout have your kids look up to YOU...
    
    You are unbelievably na�ve, Dan.  Kids will choose the people they want
    to look up to.  A parent could be the best possible role model, but
    that won't faze the kids.

    >Well, that *does* seem to be what this boils down to, doesn't it.  Some
    >people just don't believe that he's guilty.  Obviously, there was little
    >"reasonable doubt" in the minds of the judge (who believed there was
    >enough evidence to rate a trial) and the jury (who convicted him).
    
     There was "enough evidence" to convict that doctor who was convicted
    of butchering his wife and kids, and he spent 20 years in prison before
    someone came forward with prosecution suppressed exculpatory evidence.
    But he was charged, tried and convicted, so I guess by definition that
    means he must have done it.
    
    >I'd *like* to see him settle the suit with Ms. Washington, preferably to
    >the benefit of some rape crisis centre or battered women's shelter,
    >rather than the bank account of Ms. Washington.  
    
     You are cute. That "suit with Ms. Washington" is the whole reason the
    rape charges were ever brought, IMO. She's looking for gold, the new
    fashioned way, by litigating for it.
    
    >I think everyone here has hopes that don't seem to gel with the goings-
    >on in this world; even you, Doctah.  
    
     Gasp! Say it ain't so? I can't. Of course you are correct.

     <<< Note 524.130 by SMURF::BINDER "Night's candles are burnt out." >>>
        .          .          .          .          .          .          .
    
    
    IMHO,......
      ^
    Somehow I find THAT hard to believe.... :-)

        .126
    
    .126  its not "moral standards" its obeying the law.
    
    .130 One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey
    .130 just laws.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey
    .130 unjust laws.
    
                                    - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
    
    .130    There is a lot to be said for the argument that broad-based lawas
    .130    prohibiting the recreational use of certain drugs are unjust. 
    .130    Alcohol is a drug, yet it's legal.  Nicotine is a drug, yet it's legal.
    
    .130     IMHO, your legal argument is shot full of holes.
    
    
    I would imagine that MLK would agree that RAPE - AKA laws that Tyson 
    was found guilty of disobeyed are "JUST LAWS".  
    
        IMHO, your legal argument is shot full of holes.
    
    
    shot full of holes? maybe .111 but I don't see anyway of shotting any
    holes thru a guilty verdict of RAPE.   

    
    .133
    
    >There was "enough evidence" to convict that doctor...
    
    "That doctor", Mike Tyson...I'm surprised you can support the concept
    of a death penalty with so little confidence in the judicial system.
    But I see lots of people more than willing to vilify *other* sex 
    offenders, based solely on the fact that they are convicted.  Maybe I
    think that Tyson's getting an easier ride than your average sex crime
    parolee, based on nothing but the fact that he's good at beating people
    up.
    
    >You are cute.
    
    Funny, that's not what people *usually* call me...   ;^)
    
    >She's looking for gold, the new fashioned way, by litigating for it.
    
    Perhaps, but that doesn't mean she wasn't raped.
    
    jc
    

    
    Was Mike Tyson paroled, or did he complete his sentence?
    

    >"That doctor", Mike Tyson...I'm surprised you can support the concept
    >of a death penalty with so little confidence in the judicial system.
    
     I do support and have confidence in the judicial system- at least most
    of the time. And there are certain times when the death penalty is the
    most appropriate punishment, and the guilt and identity of the
    perpetrator are not at issue.
    
>Maybe I
    >think that Tyson's getting an easier ride than your average sex crime
    >parolee, based on nothing but the fact that he's good at beating people
    >up.                                                                  
    
     I think you are probably right about this, but I also think that the
    rape conviction should not be taken at face value. If I did, then I'd
    probably be on your side. :-)
    
    >Perhaps, but that doesn't mean she wasn't raped.
    
     I think it makes it more likely that she was not. I think she had it
    planned all along. She is definitely not the doe eyed innocent child
    she played on the stand.

    
    If I recall correctly, he got 6 years, and served 3 or 4 years of that.
    

    > Trying to force sports stars to uphold higher
    > moral standards than the rest of us because kids look up to them is
    > like handing a car owner a set of earplugs when they take their car in
    > to get the funny noise fixed.
    
    Exactly.
    
    And it's like leaving junior's upbringing to teachers, neighbors, cops,
    older siblings, anyone but Mom and Dad who are too busy to be bothered
    to raise junior themselves.
    
    It's like wanting TV to be censored so mummy and daddy don't have to
    concern themselves with what junior watches on TV.
    
    It's like wanting the internet to be censored so mums and dads don't
    have to concern themselves with what junior might see on the net.
    
    If you have kids, then go ahead and raise 'em yourselves.  Don't try to
    turn the entire world into a nursery for your kids.
    
    Quit being so infatuated with people's sex lives and so obsessed with 
    their shortcomings.  If we all kept our own heads out of the gutter 
    and allowed public figures to conduct their personal lives in the 
    same privacy we demand for ourselves, then we and our kids could 
    safely idolize them as heros or leaders, separate from our personal
    opinions of them as people.
    
    

    
    .138
    
    >...but I also think that the
    >rape conviction should not be taken at face value.
    
    Well, I guess we may never know for sure, but in that sense I think
    this differs little from many, many sexual assault cases.  I admit
    that I didn't follow this trial too closely.  Was *any* forensic
    evidence admitted, or was it strictly a he-said-she-said affair?
    

    .136 
    >Maybe I think that Tyson's getting an easier ride than your
    >average sex crime parolee, based on nothing but the fact that he's good
    >at beating people up.
    
    Or, rearrange the words to read:
    
    Maybe I think that Tyson's getting an easier ride than your average sex
    crime parolee, based on the fact that he's good at nothing but beating
    people up.

    
    <-----  that too.  :^)
    

    If two guys get into a fight and one knocks the other silly, they are
    often both charged with something.
    
    But if a man and a woman go to a hotel room together and get into a sex
    act, then if the woman says it was rape, the guy goes down for a long
    time, the woman is always the victim, and shares no blame whatsoever.
    
    I can think of no other crime where someone can contribute
    substantially to it but share no blame at all.
    
    In some cases even if the woman didn't object to the sex, the guy still
    goes down for it, like congressman Reynolds, even over the objections
    of the "victim"
    
    We are truly a sex-obsessed country.  Too much bottle feeding,
    probably.

    Most women who are raped don't take it to trial.
    
    If a woman is determined to go through the humiliation of the trail
    etc. she's probably telling the truth.

    
    .144
    
    Hey, if the woman's a liar, that's one thing.  But "No means no", 
    regardless of what transpired up to that point.
    
    I don't know about you, but I have (in the past), been taken "that
    close" (oh, *so* close...).  I stopped when I was told.  I'm not so
    special.
    
    

    yes Joan, you were so gentle and kind to me.
    
    8^*

    
    SSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHH!
    

    > If a woman is determined to go through the humiliation of the trail
    > etc. she's probably telling the truth.
    
    How about the girl in Reynolds's case?  She didn't even want it to go
    this far, but prosecutors took that decision out of her hands.  I
    wonder how many times that happens, and with what sort of excuses on
    the part of prosecutors.  
    
    The victim ought to have more control over how these cases get
    prosecuted, and the government ought to work for the victim, not vice
    versa.

     > But "No means no", regardless of what transpired up to that point.
    
    No argument with that, but what if they say "yes", then change their
    mind later?
    
    

    
    .150
    
    Woman's prerogative.
    
    How much later?
    

    >How much later?
    
    Later after the old boy does something to torque 'em off, or after a
    friend says, "Hey that guy is worth millions", or after a lawyer or
    prosecutor talks 'em into it, or however long it takes for them to see
    it in a different light.

    
    .152
    
    THAT much later?  Oh, well then, she's a liar; no rape occured.
    
    What if she changes her mind DURING the act?
    

    
    i'm a long-time fan of the game of football. i remember watching
    oj on television and thinking what a marvelous athlete he was,
    even when he was having a go at the teams i liked. i truly
    admired the man. i thought he also was a reasonably good comic
    actor... but i now believe that oj simpson was responsible for
    the deaths of nicole brown simpson and ronald goldman and that
    he should be punished with life imprisonment (i would have
    supported the death penalty as well, had the state decided to
    "go for it.") i am convinced that he is guilty based on the
    evidence in this case.

    on the other hand, i've never had much interest in boxing. i've
    never paid for a pay-per-view fight, nor to see one live. i give
    most televised fights a miss for lack of interest. i was completely
    indifferent to mike tyson, although i was amused that such a
    fireplug of a human being could sound like a smurf. during the
    pretrial publicity of the rape case, i had no opinion either
    way with regard to his guilt or innocence, but i was willing
    to accept the possibility that he was guilty. however, during
    the trial, i became convinced that mike tyson was not guilty
    of the crime. not because he was a hero of mine (he wasn't),
    but because the evidence suggested to me he was not guilty.

    it seems to me that if the rape conviction had any effect on
    tyson, it would be to make him much more careful in how he
    deals with his fame and money... his personal life has always
    been a mess and i bet that's where the lessons learned will
    be applied. on the other hand, such changes will not be
    obvious to the "casual observer".

    in general, i don't place any extra expectations on sports
    figures or celebrities. they rise and fall like the rest of
    us; they just do it in the camera's eye. if you do the crime,
    do the time, and move on.

    in tyson's case, i'm _far_ from convinced he did the crime, but
    he definitely did the time, and it's definitely time to move
    on.

    -b

    
    HEY, who ASKED ya?
    
    
    
    ;^)
    

    .135
    
    The "your legal argument" I was referring to has nothing to do with
    rape.  You were getting off on another tangent, i.e., looking up to
    sports figures despite their use of drugs.

    > HEY, who ASKED ya?
    
    I think it was Joe Strummer, back in 1985... :-)
    
    -b

    
    Hey, know your rights.  All three of them.   :^)
    

    
      You're probably right that "most rape victims don't go after
     the guy".  But I bet nearly 100% of all rape victims go after
     the guy if he is rich.
    
      bb

    .153  > What if she changes her mind DURING the act?
    
    Well if they get it on and then she decides it's rape, then what a guy
    supposed to do then, fer cryin out loud?

    | But I bet nearly 100% of all rape victims go after
    |the guy if he is rich.
    
    I doubt it.

>> <<<Note 524.120 by DEVLPR::DKILLORAN "It ain't easy, bein' sleezy!">>>
    
>> Hey joan,
>> WACKY
>> Your Welcome!
    
    
    you're welcome...
    
    
    :>
    
    

    
    thanks raq, I needed that.....
    
    > What if she changes her mind DURING the act?
    
    What is this, you need a stroke-by-stroke approval, or what?
    

    .160 you said it my man... cry out loud (a lot)

    
    << What if she changes her mind DURING the act??
    
    When a woman tells you to stop at any point during intercourse, and you
    refuse, don't etc.. then that is considered rape, period.

    ya but does no mean yes?

    >> What if she changes her mind DURING the act??
    
    Run like hell to your nearest sex-change clinic and get
    a Bobbittectomy...
    
    
    >> When a woman tells you to stop at any point during intercourse, and you
    >> refuse, don't etc.. then that is considered rape, period.
    
    When a woman tells you to stop at any point during intercourse,
    and you do stop, is what you have done up to that point considered
    to be rape?
    
    Chris

    
    well chip, you want to risk a rape charge to find out?

    
    .167
    
    no

    .167
    
    No, what you did before she said no is not rape.  Continuing the act
    becomes rape at the instant when you are told no.

    .163     What is this, you need a stroke-by-stroke approval, or what?
    
    	oh yes, yes, yes, oh ya, ya, ooohhh...  
    	oh yes, yes, yes, OH YA, YA, DON,T STOP, YA, 
	oh yes, yes, yes, oh ya, ya, don,t stop, ya, 
    
    This Don't stop thing has always confused me but
    never stopped me.    
    
    Is it - don't stop or
    don't       stop ?    
    

        >> What if she changes her mind DURING the act??
    
     Start wondering about your technique.

    
    .172 is, of course, the best answer.
    

    >> No, what you did before she said no is not rape.  Continuing the act
    >> becomes rape at the instant when you are told no.
    
    Right, that's what you and I say.  But what will a jury say?
    That's the important question.
    
    Chris

    
    .172
    
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....<snif>,<snif>, that was toooo funny
    
    :-))))))))))
    

    I think I have a solution to this mess...
    
    Only hop in bed w/ someone you're sure about in the first place.

    Dive is more like it.

    
    > Only hop in bed w/ someone you're sure about in the first place.
    
    Well now there's a silly suggestion !
    

    Depends if she watching those guys or not.

    
    Depends...did this happen at Roswell?
    

    .168 ummmm, that's a big negative

    Play it safe -- stick to necrophilia

    Not only that, you'd be better off having sex with dead bodies too!

    
    Thanks so much, little buddy 8^).
    
    

Either that or venetian blinds.

    
    <---- I'm *opposed* to that sort of thing!
    

    
    jc, in answer to your personal name, no.

    Not only that, people would wonder what you were doing to those blinds.

    
    .190
    
    I did.  When I was little, the pet store downtown used to have a
    (I believe it was a) squirrel monkey that would hang by its tail.
    
    My mom, for some cold-hearted reason, REFUSED to buy it for me.
    
    <sigh>
    

Monkeys have always given me the creeps, for some reason.

    
    .192
    
    sorta like "how much is that gorilla, in the window"?

    
    Gorillaaaaa
    You'll be a hu-man soooon...
    

re .185:  That's not safe, you may catch a funerial disease.

    If that happens you just move to new digs.

a funerial decease?

    
    or just bury the hatchet.

    
    Necrophilia has grave implications.
    

    
    <--- you sir, have a morbid sense of humor

    
    > Play it safe -- stick to necrophilia
    
    EEEEEWWWWWWWWWWW...... Suddenly I don't feel so good.....'scuze meee...
    
    
    
    RRRAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLFFFFFFFFFFFFF

    
    My humours have all seeped out.  (Disen)terrible!
    

Was it good for you?

    
    Yes, thanks.  Cigarette?
    

Nah.  Those things are killers.

    
    .206
    
    well Bonnie, jc could have said the same about you.

ha!  good one! (really, i'm dead serious).

    There once was a young man named Dave
    Who kept a dead whore in a cave
    He said, "I admit,
    I'm a bit of a $#@t,
    But look at the money I save!"
    
    

The version I always heard went

	"She was minus a xix,
	 and smelled like $#ix."

with a "he" rather than an "I" in the last line.

/john

There once was a fella named Dahmer
Who fancied himself an embalmer
He said, "I admit,
I'm a bit of a $#@t,
But boys think I'm quite the charmer!"

    There was a local radio station that spoofed upon Mike T. They called
    the prision and got:
    
    Mike:Laundry!(in your best Tyson voice)
    Radio:Hi we are looking for Iron Mike.
    Mike:You got him, execpt now people call me ironing Mike.
    Radio:So how are things on the inside?
    Mike:Gee, I was going to ask you that myself. Its great inside, learning to
    speak a new language.
    Radio:So, this means you will be bi-lingual?
    Mike:Certainly Not! I like women!
         

    
    From the Department of Sensitive Males:
    
    >"I'm very excited," Tyson said about his new daughter. "Her mother is
    >extremely beautiful. But she (Rayna) is beautiful, so gorgeous she makes 
    >her mother look like a yard dog."
    
    
    

  charming man, eh what?

If I wuz his wife, I'd punch him out for that remark.

    she'd have a much easier time and more lucrative with a suit for rape.

So, will Bruno hive him a bit of a slap, or will Tyson triumph?

Chris.

Tyson will knock Bruno out in the 4th, I predict.

    -1 you were close. a TKO in favor of Tyson in the 3rd. now let's see...
    
       he has one belt back. now that leaves what? about 243 to go?

I think it is only 220!  :)

Tyson is an animal. He has much more intensity then before prison. 

    He sure sent that big Brit packing. Pummeled him.

    .221
    
    > Tyson is an animal.
    
    That about says it all.

    With the voice of a care bear.

    ya but being an animal is his job. i fear we will never reach that
    plateau of kindler, gentler pugilists.  :-)

    .225
    
    You obviously never watched Alexis Arguello box.  I use that verb
    deliberately.  Arguello boxed - he was an artist.
    
    I read about a boxer named Poole who won a TKO in the 12th round. 
    Until the 11th, he never laid a glove on his opponent, named
    Harrington.  Harrington wore hmself out trying to hit Poole, who just
    kept slipping punches and blocking.  When Harrington's guard went down,
    Poole went in and just tapped him over and over again until Harrington
    got pissed and went back on the offensive - whereat Poole slipped back
    into defensive mode.  When they came out for the 12th, Harrington just
    stood there and swayed back and forth, and his seconds threw in the
    towel.
    
    That is boxing.  What Tyson and his ilk do is fighting, not boxing, and
    they are animals, not boxers.

    >That is boxing.  
    
     If it works. It's called "losing" when it doesn't. It can't be all
    that effective, given the relatively few practitioners.

    
    
    I hated Cassius Clay (Ali), because of his brashness and ego...
    
    Today I realize what an excellent boxer he was. That jab of his came
    out of nowhere...
    

    ali was the greatest.  i loved his brashness.  i am
    saddened by his present condition.

    I never cared for Ali. Nonetheless, his current situation is
    lamentable.

    He had such a sharp mind and body. It is very sad.

    
    	What's wrong with Ali?
    
    	I haven't watched "Entertainment Tonight" in awhile.
    

    ali has parkinson's and he physically very feeble.

    .227
    
    The small number of practitioners is indicative not of boxing's
    effectiveness but rather of the significant added level of skill
    required to be good at it.  It takes little skill, relatively speaking,
    to be able to batter your opponent into insensibility.  It takes a lot
    to make him beat himself.  Today's fighters are interested in the big
    bux, not in learning how to box.

>Today's fighters are interested in the big bux, not in learning how to box.
    
    The big money goes to those who win. If today's fighters were better
    able to win by "pretty" boxing, that's what they'd do. It still comes
    down to effectiveness. Tyson has apparently learned at least some level
    of boxing skills, since the guy he just pummeled was much bigger and
    possibly stronger. He was, on the other hand, a puncher. 
    
     I think you sell Tyson short, probably because of your feelings about
    him as an individual.

    .226 obviously, you missed my smiley. but while we're splitting hairs,
    pure pugilistic artistry and a killer instinct are a requirement for
    success in this game. yes, i've seen Arguello box, and Leonard, and
    Ray Robinson and many of the best fighters over the last 30+ years.
    
    Tyson does have boxing skills. he'd never survive in the ring without
    them just like he wouldn't survive with heart and the right amount
    of an aggressive/destructive indifference toward mercy.
    
    my $.02

    .235
    
    I didn't think much of Gene Fullmer in the ring, either, and from all I
    know of his personal life, he was a fine upstanding guy.  I just prefer
    artistry, that's all.

    >I just prefer artistry, that's all.
    
     That's allowed. :-)

    And FWIW, I didn't, and don't, hold it against Fullmer that Joey
    Giardello died at his hands.  That's a risk Giardello took when he
    stepped into the ring.  But I still don't have to appreciate the
    calculated brutality of WBA/WBC-sanctioned murder any more than I would
    appreciate the calculated brutality of a gladiatorial contest.  I do
    get a kick out of watching the lighter weight classes in the Olympics,
    because those kids are more often boxing than fighting.

    
    <-------
    
    Dick,
    
     I agree about the light-weight classes in the Olpymics
    
    
    Now, all they need to do is find some un-biased judges...

    Oh there you go bringing class into it again!

Another boxer that is worse then Ali is Jerry Quary.
I read some article about him a while ago and apparently he can hardly walk. 
Has to have someone dress him each day. Feeding himself is even difficult.

I guess his father started him boxing at the age of 8.

    -1 ahhh, his nickname, The Bayhound Bleeder would certainly explain
       his condition. i saw most of fights and with the exception of some
       club fighters he faced, he generally beaten about nastily.

    The boxing world lost a good one when Ray 'Boom Boom" Mancini quit.

    yooo, that Butterbean guy is a riot. anyone remember Two-Ton Tony
    Galenta (sp?)??? same morphic story.

    Question:  I was wondering if anybody can tell me the song, that Mike
    Tyson played when he goes to the ring..  I think the song is "Pound for
    Pound"  Does anybody know who sings it?  and what album?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    S:*)

    With all the money he makes, you'd think he'd get a vocal chord
    transplant.

    > With all the money he makes, you'd think he'd get a vocal chord
    > transplant.
    
    after the crack about "Mom looking like a yard dog" I would think a
    BRAIN transplant might be a little higher on the wish list..
    
    

    Please tell me he did NOT say that.

    Yes, and he sounded like a big care bear.

    >  <<< Note 524.250 by SCASS1::BARBER_A "breath in, breath out" >>>
    
    
    > Please tell me he did NOT say that.
    
    OK. He moved his lips to say "I'm so fast, I can turn out the lights,
    and be in the bed before the room gets dark".
    
    What came out was "Her mother is extremely beautiful. But (Rayna) is
    beautiful, so gorgeous she makes her mother look like a yard dog".