Conference back40::soapbox

    There are several to whom I wouldn't mind... if I can choose *which*
    organ...
    
    (sorry Joe -- did I cheapen something?)
                                                                  

    My concern is who is going to pronounce me dead...certainly not the
    recipiants doctor. Otherwise let them whack away.

    I wonder how often a donated organ get re-donated.

                                re-dolent.

 Someone recently donated an organ to our church.  It replaced a rather
 old one, and the new one sounds real nice, and I can hear it way in 
 the back of the auditorium.  Now, if someone would just donate a new
 sound system...



 Jim

    
    Like Chris, I've always "signed up" to be an organ donor.  However,
    because of my mother's beliefs, I know that donation will probably
    never take place, since they try to honor the wishes of the family
    of the deceased.
    
    For my mother, and, I suspect, many older people, when you are dead
    they put you in a box and put the box into the ground and there you
    stay.  It seems rather...well...untidy to have bits and pieces
    still left behind once the carcass has been tucked away.  Medical 
    science has made great strides forward very quickly, and has outpaced
    the ability of peoples' attitudes to change, especially when dealing
    with traditions of burial handed down through countless generations
    over untold millenia.
    
    Whenever you are dealing with Death, you run the risk of provoking
    powerful (and sometimes illogical) reactions from people.  As we find
    out more about what Death is really like, the strength of these
    reactions may be tempered or may increase.  It all depends what we
    find out there in the last uncharted territory.
    
    I know, how creepy.  Well, what can I say?  I'm a pretty morbid guy.
    

    I assume Mr Lager Lout has agreed to donate his Liver and Kidneys as
    they are well preserved/pickled    8^)

    i think he's shooting more towards having them placed in a time
    capsule.

    it had better be lined with some fire retardant compound if his "day in
    the life of " story is true.   

        I take  the  view (and what family I have knows it) that when I'm
        gone, I'll have  no need for the physical bits and pieces so have
        at it.  You  can be an "organ" donor while still alive - have yer
        blood checked out for platelet  pheresis  compatability  and  get
        yerself on the bone marrow registry  - especially if you're black
        or Hispanic. (matches tend to come from ethnic similarity)
        
        &y
        

    
      And when I die
      And when I'm gone
      There'll be one child born
      In this world to carry on
      To carry on
    
    I've signed my organ donor card.  They can have whatever they want for
    transplant, but I don't want them doing little experiments on me.  No
    med-school cadaver, me.  
    
    My finacee is adamant, however (for some reason) that they not take my
    eyes.  I've told her that they'll probably be the most useful part of
    me, but she's not buying it.
    
    I hope she respects my wishes...
    
    jc
                                   

    I've decided to start drinking heavily. Perhaps I can get rid of this
    Hammond B3 once and for all!

    
    
     Yeah... but can you hit 500+ homers before your liver goes bad???
    

    
    I have not signed up to be an organ donor.  I've always felt that I
    came into this world in one piece and fully functional, and I wanna go
    the same way....  However, times and people change.  I now donate
    blood, which I'd never done before, and my view of life is expanding.
    So, I would like to know more about organ donation, what do they use,
    do the next of kin know who gets the pieces, will they actually be
    used, or will they just take 'em out and see if they can find a match,
    and if not use, 'em for testing....

    Dan

brief digression.

last sunday I was listening to a radio talk show dealing with work place 
theft. among the many routine theft calls, one that grabed my attention dealt 
with Mickey Mantle's old discarded liver. this guy called in to say that his
brother works as an orderly in the pathology lab at the Texas hospital where 
Mantle got his liver transplanted. Mickey's old liver was sent to pathology 
lab for tests/analysis and this orderly guy stole it with authenticating 
paperwork and replaced it with a periously trashed liver. apparently this 
guy has Micky's liver in a jar full of preservatives or whatever. the caller 
wanted to know if Micky's liver has any value as a sports memorabilia and
how can he find the right value for it. like some sports fan may want to
become the proud owner of Mantle's original, one of a kind, liver.
     

re .16:

See 453.231.

    .14
    
    > I came into this world in one piece and fully functional, and I wanna
    > go the same way.
    
    You do not leave this world until you are no longer fully functional,
    so I'd say that your reasoning is specious.  The opportunity to help
    keep another human being by organ donation fully functional is, IMHO,
    not to be missed.  If you're worried about arriving in heaven with bits
    missing, remember that Christian theology teaches that in heaven we'll
    have new bodies that are resplendently perfect.
    
    Virtually any major organ can be used - heart, lungs, kidneys, liver,
    even stomach, intestines, and skin.  For some, such as hearts and
    livers and kidneys there are long waiting lists, so these organs are
    almost always used.  Some other organs are less likely to be used - the
    skin, especially, is rarely taken.  (It is used for transplant to burn
    victims.)  You can specify which of your organs are to be made
    available, and you can specify that none of your body is to be used for
    testing, or for experimental surgery, or for any purpose of which you
    disapprove.  Look into making a legal document that specifies these
    things; I've made one, and in New Hampshire it's binding - they do what
    I specify with what I specify, or they get nothing.

    re .15 -- anyone who could be SO insynsytyve, they wouldn't be able to
    sell 'is heart for a squeeze-jug.  Perhaps a shotglass.  And a li'l one
    at that.
    

    
    <-----
    Ya're both wrong !
    
    They'll never sell my heart, 'cuz I ain't got one.... :-)
    
    Jes axe one o' them pinko lefty's...... they'll set ya straight !
    
    :-)
    Dan

It's unnerving to see Larry Niven's stories of a future where organ-legging
(kidnapping/killing a person for their organs) was commonplace and where
criminals were sent to the organ-bank to pay society back for their crimes
actually becoming closer to reality.  Organ-legging actually in many countries
(such as India).

> Organ-legging actually in many countries (such as India).

Assuming that the missing word is "happens," do you have evidence, or is
this like the Americans-adopt-Guatemalan-babies-for-the-organs rumor?

    Anyone know how many people actually *do* sign their organ donation
    cards, or have clauses in their wills?  It seems to me that if just a
    small portion of the *thousands* of people who die each day in
    N.America, Europe, Asia whatever, have signed this that any waiting
    list for such organs would be fairly small.  I realize there is
    difficulties in getting the donor to the recipient, etc., but still...
    
    D

    
    my organs are up for grabs when i bite the big one. i have
    the sticker on my license and a card in my wallet stating
    what they can take. basically, anything they can use.
    unfortunately, with life-long asthma, blindness in one
    eye due to injury, and a liver damaged by industrial
    chemicals, the pickin's are pretty slim i'm afraid.
    unless, of course, someone like that bobbit guy shows
    up in the emergency room, in which case, he'll think he
    hit the jackpot! :-) :-)
    
    -b

    	Actually, I've heard a serious argument for harvesting organs
    	from criminals.
    
    	Instead of the death penalty, you take parts of their eyes,
    	(mandatory blinding) or other organs that they can still
    	live without (kidneys, for instance, if they are then given
    	dialysis in prison.)  This prevents the problem of executing
    	a wrongly-convicted prisoner.  If he is later found to be
    	innocent, he gets the organ of the next compatible prisoner 
    	that comes along.
    
    	Doing this helps make prison security easier, and escapes
    	less likely.  A blind prisoner would be easier to manage.
    	A kidney-less prisoner can't go far without his dialysis
    	machine.  And in giving up these organs they can return some-
    	thing to society in compensation for their crime.
    
    	So maybe what's in .21 is not so far off as one might suspect...

    	re .23
    
    	Putting it in your will is no good.  By the time they read
    	your will, you'll be long buried or cremated.  
    
    	Putting it in your living will is another matter.

    .23
    
    Don't put it in your will.  By the time your will is read, it's too
    late.  It should be in a Final Disposition document, and copies thereof
    should be in the possession of your immediate family, friends who ar
    close geographically, and your medical care provider.
    
    If you have a personal computer, look into a program called Willmaker
    5, from Nolo Press Software.  Willmaker can help you to create your
    will, your Final Disposition document, and a document (your Living
    Will) containing instructions on such things as what measures, heroic
    or otherwise, are to be taken in the event that you are incapacitated
    and near death.

    
    Brian, Brian, Wake up !  You're asleep with your head on the keyboard
    again.... :-)
    
    re:.25
    
    If you get an organ from a convicted murderer, and then go out and blow
    someone away, do you think you could pin it on the convict ???
    
    :-)
    Dan

    awww come on Dan. even the Grinch had a heart.

    
    "Hang around my friend, and you will have you eyes opened...."

    Chip, continue reading my notes, especially where government largess is
    concerned, and it might change your mind.... :-)))))

    Dan

re: .25, Joe

Good thing the jailers in "Midnight Express" hadn't glommed onto this
concept.

    I think Mr. Binder came closest to the mark; make sure it is in
    writing and make sure that MORE than one member of your immediate
    family is aware of your wishes.
    
    Although I try not to dwell on it, I'm sure glad someone allowed
    their loved ones bones to be harvested for the bone bank.  Cadaver
    bones were used to replace the two discs removed from my neck (my
    own bones are too riddled with arthritis to be used).
    
    

MiMiMi {ahem}

If I cadaver leave you
It wouldn't be in springtime...

    > If I cadaver leave you
    
    Um, Gerald, that fails to scan in the context of the original.

	.35 yes, but can't we just forget about it?  thinking about
	    robert goulet hurts my head.

	in response to your question, richard, that would depend on
	which robert goulet part you mean.  

    
    If ever I would leave you, 
    it wouldn't be in springtime
    knowing how in springtime
    you which side you glow
    oh no not in springtime
    summer, winter or fall
    no never would I leave you at all.
    
    Camelot

  .38   that must be the off-Broadway version.

    
    >you which side you glow
    
    
    Partially turned towards Three Mile Island, perhaps?
    

    
    So, I'm sitting on a fortune of spare parts here, assuming potential
    recipients are not too fussy.  This being the land of opportunity and
    whatnot, how come no one is brokering in spare part futures?
    
    Why should surgeons make all the money?  What I need is a Living Bill
    of Sale.  "You may have this kidney, but you must first give $5,000 to
    my grieving widow, my estate or assignees.  Or at least, if I do donate
    it, the market value of the organ should be offset against death duties
    as a charitable donation.
    
    Colon.
    
    
    
    

    
    <-------
    Now THERE is an IDEA !
    
    :-)
    Dan

    
    
    
    Few back... China already collects organs from their prisoners as
    one receiptiant said..."Its how you know it's fresh."
    The prisoners are executed as needed. I think the price was $30,000
    for a major organ.
    
    I think the U.S. policy should be that the organs are automaticly
    harvested  UNLESS you sign the back of the license or your family
    objects. It should be the rule and not the exception.
    
    

    
    .43
    
    Mr. Topaz, that was cute. Ok, I made up a couple of words, because I
    forgot _exactly_ how it went. Give me a break, its been awhile since
    I've heard the album.

    Howzabout MY theory:  It wuz a confabulation of what he thought he wuz
    singing, and
    
    "Oh, how light you are, how bright you are, you glow!"
    
    Who can name the song whence this comes?
    
    Hint:
    
    (It involves untamed equui)
    
    |-{:-)
    

	but prolly not mick jagger

    
    It's May, it's May, the lusty month of May......

    
    Cest moi, Cest moi, I humbly reply
    I'm far to noble to lie
    that man with whom these qualities bloom
    Cest moi, Cest moi tis i...
    
    I've never lost in battle or game
    I'm simply the best by far...

    
    re: .44
    
    > I think the U.S. policy should be that the organs are automaticly
    > harvested  UNLESS you sign the back of the license or your family
    > objects. It should be the rule and not the exception.
    
    Why?  Defend your position.
    
    Dan

>    I assume Mr Lager Lout has agreed to donate his Liver and Kidneys as
>    they are well preserved/pickled    8^)

hey, don't hassle me!  My organs (oo-er) are all in prime condition, as
the alcohol kills all the nasty germs/viruses!

Chris.

>It's unnerving to see Larry Niven's stories of a future where organ-legging
>(kidnapping/killing a person for their organs) was commonplace and where
>criminals were sent to the organ-bank to pay society back for their crimes
>actually becoming closer to reality.  Organ-legging actually in many countries
>(such as India).

you ever see the Max Headroom film, where those two Scots thugs went around
in a Commer van full of bits of people?  They'd go around collecting bodies
for the organ bank (alive or dead!)  It was quite amusing when they were
called with a complaint that one of the donors had done a runner!

Chris.

    Chris,
    
    Maybe you should speak with Mickey Mantle and see just how well
    alcohol preserved his liver :-0
    
    

I might chat with him if he buys me a pint...

Chris.

    Is it true that they're retiring Mickey Mantle's original liver at a
    ceremony at Yankee Stadium?

    Yes, that and Darryl Strawberry's nose.

    
    <-- It's true.  However, Mantle's liver doesn't qualify for the Hall 
        Of Fame due to its substance abuse problem.
    

    I hear they're hoisting it to the rafters, with a large bucket
    strategically placed underneaf.
    

    Are they going to hoist some onions up there to keep it company?

    
    ...and some fava beans, and a nice Chianti?
    

    Loved that moompitcha.
    

>    ...and some fava beans, and a nice Chianti?
    
Please don't speak in that fashion when I'm hungry.

Mods! Can this be moved to #80?

    For more info on organ donation I put my story in 453.81.  I addressed
    that more to who gets what organ, but maybe I can answer a couple of
    questions here:
    
    re: the base note  Why wouldn't anyone want to donate their organs.
    Good question - there are all kinds of debates going on about this.
    My feeling is that lack of understanding about donation before hand.
    To try and make a decision at that time, when you have just lost
    someone and you don't have a clue what their wishes were, must be
    overwhelming.  And I believe most people would lean towards
    being conservative at such a time.  Very important to let others
    know what you want.
    
    There are no known religions against it.  One religion -
    I forget which - believes the soul is located in the heart and there-
    fore the heart should not be transplanted, but all other organs can.
    Some religions, (I believe Judism is one, encourages it).  
    
    re. 2 - who pronounces you dead?  I was talking to my neighbor about
    this last week-end.  He won't sign a card, but his family knows
    he wants to donate.
    
    There is a picture of transplant surgeons lurking around emergency
    rooms.  Nothing could be further from the truth.
    
    If something happened to you and you died, a trauma team, emergency
    room m.d., family doctor would have to prounounce you dead.  At that
    time, they are required to ask the family if they would consider
    donation.  If no - then it is no.  If the family doesn't know and wants 
    more info or if it is yes, then the regional organ bank sends an
    organ proucurement officer.  
    
    The doctor that has declared the person dead is now out of the 
    picture.
    A trained compassionate  person from the organ bank  
    will spend as long as necessary explaining to the family what is
    involved.  This person is committed to the family and the deceased
    from the beginning to the very end and will stay with the deceased
    until they are go to the funeral home takes them. 
    
    Once it is decided yes, the third group - a couple of surgeons from
    the transplant team - will come and retrieve the organ.  Now depending
    on where the organs are going and who is the best match you may
    have different surgeons from different transplant clinics.  
    
    At no time ever is a transplant surgeon ever involved in declaring
    anyone dead.
    
    re: 14, what organs do they use - any organ that is healthy.  In other
    words a lung may be damaged in a car accident, but the liver and
    kidney may be good.  They will not use a diseased or damaged organ.
    The transplant team and the recipient will have their hands full
    as it is, without transplanting a disease organ.
    
    Organ banks have very strict codes about confidentiality.  I know
    we have all heard stories about recipients meeting their donor 
    families, but it doesn't happen all that often.
    
    Organs are identified for particular recipients before they are
    removed.  An organ can only last for so long, unfortunately a
    very short time.  There is no time to take it out and think
    about what they are going to do.  The recipient is chosen by
    blood type, size and the sickest in that area. 
    
    Hope I have answered some questions.  
    
    Will be happy to answer whatever else I can.
    
    Barbara Gardner
    Liver transplant recipient
    A sometime spokesperson for The New England Organ Bank

    When some bimbo finally runs me over anybody can have anything they
    want i wont be needing it. As for signing my donor card forget it.
    First come first serve. In fact if I'm real close to somebody at the
    time of my earthly departure I would hope that so and so would sell my
    limp biomass for as much as they can get. Sell it to science sell it to
    a necro I dont think I'll care.
    
    chris
    

    If you don't sign your card, your organs are likely to decompose in the
    ground.

    
    re: .66
    
    >First come first serve.
    
    Signing your donor card allows this to happen...
    
    Or do you believe the doctors will be lining up right at the curbside
    next to your remains???
    

    A donor card is not required if the family of the deceased agrees to
    the donation. I remember the doctor asking my dad if he would be
    willing to donate my mother's eyes, after her death. My father
    consulted my brother, sister and I and we all agreed that it would be
    OK. It was done. I think that doctors often ask the family for an organ
    donation, especially if a young person dies prematurely in an accident
    or something.
    
    ...Tom

    
    
    You're right, but it makes it a whole lot easier if the organs are
    needed asap to waiting donors but can't be delivered until a next of
    kin is notified and/or needed for permission...
    

	I thought JW's opposed organ transplants for religious purposes.

	Re: research - the card regarding organ donation that I picked
	up at the registry said that by putting the little dot sticker on
	your license, you agreed that your organs could be transplanted
	or used for medical research.  That sort of put me off using
	the sticker.  I'm still deciding.

	BTW, if they won't take your blood, will they still take
	your organs, or will they be rejected ?

    
    
      The donor card is not the abolute final say in a donor situation.
    
      Whoever is responsible for the person would have the final say so.
      It may be husband, wife, parent, children or SO.
    
      The Organ Bank will ask everyone who is to have a say in the
      decision to be brought together.  If it is 10 kids and one kid
      says no, then it is no.  Everyone has to agree.  The Organ Bank
      understands that these people will have to support each other in
      their grief and if there is disagreement about anything it only
      makes the situation worse.  Now it is usually not that dramatic
      with that many people.  Usually there would be one or two of
      the deceased's family speaking for everyone.  But those that
      make the decision will have the final say.   
    
      That is why it is important to make your wishes known.  
    
      BTW, I have never been too impressed with information given
      at the registry.  There must be a better way to do this.
             
      Barbara

    I will not sign my donoor card so that some bimbo doctor can make a stash
    o' cash. No, I have signed my own form to give remaining bits and
    pieces to __________, whoever it may be, no0w it is my girlfriend and my
    mother, they clearly understand what I say. 
    
    Nothing is free I'm afraid. If the state wants my organs they can pay
    for them. I work hard to keep them in good condition, infact, all I
    have is 400 bucks a stereo, a bike, and a few kitchen utencils, my body
    makes up a considerable amount of my personal worth, it would be silly
    for me not to sell it when it was no longer functioning in the world
    . 
    
             

    
    re: .73
    
    You're just being funny here... right??
    
    I mean, you do know that there has to be some sort of donor compatability
    that may exclude your "girlfriend" from receiving your organs...
    
    You do know that *most* organs donated go to people who otherwise
    couldn't afford them?
    
    >Nothing is free I'm afraid. If the state wants my organs they can pay
    >for them.
    
      and where do you think the state gets its money to "pay" for these
    supposed organs???
    

re .73

At least he doesn't have to worry about anyone wanting
his heart!

I read/or heard a couple of days ago that they are now using the 
foreskin that has been but away during circumcision to grow new skin
for transplants

    Oh, good... so then maybe you can get taller when you're out on a
    date, which would certainly be convenient.
    
    Chris

    
    	Depends on which area you're trying to peek at.
    

RE:.76

	Sorry I gave at the office. :^)

    "-< I wonder if you wrinkle faster where the new skin is placed? >-"
    
    No, but if you wear silk clothing on the graft site, it expands to 3
    times the size, making for uncomfortable & unsightly bulges.
    
    HTH.
    

    
    BEIJING (Reuter) - An implant of brain cells has boosted the
    intelligence of an 18-year-old retarded Chinese girl, enabling
    her to to learn to walk normally, the China Daily said yesterday.
    
    Within 23 days [of the transplant, last July] the cells began
    functioning and the girl, who had been unable to walk properly
    since birth, began to display improved motor and cognitive
    abilities.
    

    
    
    Serious question...
    
    Where did they get the cells from??
    

    
    The article didn't say.
    

    
    Flowers for Algernon.
    
    {shudder}
    

    Why don't we have affirmative action for organ recipients?
    
    You know all those nasty patiarchal WM's getting all the good ones....
    
    
    
    Steve

    
    Deuce.  Buddy.  Chill.
    
    

    From Killoran.
    

    .82
    
    Andy,
    
    They probably got the brain cells from the same sort of individual
    who "donated" the bones used in my disk surgery.....
    
    
                               cadaver
    
    

    
    <----
    
    Well... I'm in the International Marrow Donor Data Bank and I ain't
    dead!! :) :) :)
    
     Besides, they wouldn't want to use my brain cells anyway... The person
    would be dragging their knuckles on the ground within a week of
    recovery!!!! ;)
    

    Andy,
    
    I'm not talking about bone *marrow*, I'm talking about BONE :-}
    
    I've had surgery to remove 2 vertebrae in my neck.  Normally if
    it's at all possible the surgeons remove bone from the patient's
    hips and re-use it in the neck area.  Because I have fairly advanced
    degenerative arthritis my own bone was deemed unworthy, so off he
    went to the bone bank.  Just feels kinda a creepy when I let myself
    think about it too long (but I am grateful the bone was available).
    
    Lots of folks donate lots of blood, platelets and marrow etc., but
    when's the last time you heard of anyone donating a hand or a foot?
    
    

    
    >                  -< Good news for the height-impaired >-

    HEY !  I'm not height-impaired!  I merely suffer from an abbreviated
    inseam.... ;-)

>Note 496.87                      Organ Donations      
>POWDML::HANGGELI "Little Chamber of Wet Raspberries"  
>    
>    Deuce.  Buddy.  Chill.
    
    Chilled I am . Please explain why organ doantions should NOT be exempt
    from affirative action. Can't you think of a 'good' reason that would
    fly...?    
    
    
    Steve

    
    >>You know all those nasty patiarchal WM's getting all the good ones....
      
    This is what you need to chill about.  This isn't mennotes, ya know.
    
    

    
    
    re: .91
    
    >I'm not talking about bone *marrow*, I'm talking about BONE :-}
    
    I knew that... ;) ;)  I was just trying to make a funny... guess it
    didn't work..... :)
    

    
    	Andy, humor doesn't work too well here in the 'BOX unless it's
    	as obvious as an erection at a nudist colony.
    

    Now that's funny

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Note 496.94                      Organ Donations     
>POWDML::HANGGELI "Little Chamber of Wet Raspberries" 13-NOV-1995 08:50
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>    >>You know all those nasty patiarchal WM's getting all the good ones....
>      
>    This is what you need to chill about.  This isn't mennotes, ya know.
>    
    
    Well, WM above was refering to those White Males, not women. But my
    basic premise still stands:
    
    1. If AA in jobs is OK 
         is 
    2.  AA in organ transplants OK?
    
    A simple yes or no will do, Deflections seem to indicate a yes to the
    first and no to the second...    
    
Yup. This is not MenNotes, It's worse, Soapbox    
    
    
    Steve ( I am chilled...)

    
    Uh, yes, I do realize that WM meant white males, not women.
    
    Not everything in the world is governed by AA, as you know.  Why in the
    world would anyone want the government to interfere in anything
    medical?
    
    

    
    
    
    I was going to put a comment in here about me having an organ to donate
    to any boxwimmins in here while noting at Mad Mike's the other night,
    but then I thought twice and though it would be in bad taste as well as
    sexist so I decided not to....... :')
    
    Mike

    
    chicken

    re: .99
    
    Doesn't that belong in the abortion topic?
    
    Bob