Conference back40::soapbox

    I think it's about time the Irish stopped killing each other and
    returned to killing the English.

    
    Well said Dick.
    
    Dan
    

    Smell bread quick.
    
    Pan

>I think it's about time the Irish stopped killing each other

But that would put quite a big dent in their martyr system.

    No, it wouldn't.  The English have martyred plenty over the course of
    the past few centuries.

    
    <- I misread that as "matured", and was about to enter a hot denial.
    
    carry on.
    
    

Anyway, I hope everyone is serious and even-handed
during the negotiations.  The people of Ireland must
be sick to death of the violence.

    Dia ghuit tra'thno'na!

eh?

    Re .1: BINDER
    
    It's exactly that kind of ignorant, stupid, vindictive thinking that
    has kept things the way they were in Northern Ireland for so long.

    <--- It's that kind of sense of humour that will foreshadow the
         apocalypse.

    won't this bite heavily into the spray paint and gasoline business?

    
    Wall Street Journal, 7/25/95:
    
    British and Irish ministers met in Belfast in an effort to revive the
    fragile Northern Ireland peace process.  Meanwhile, Gerry Adams, the
    leader of the IRA's political wing, insisted that the Irish Republican
    Army wouldn't surrender its weapons.
    

    
    > British and Irish ministers met in Belfast in an effort to revive the

    On the first read, I thought it said monsters instead of ministers :-))
    (politicians ya know!)

    > insisted that the Irish Republican Army wouldn't surrender its weapons.

    They would be fools to give up their weapons.  It's only been through
    force of arms that they've gotten this far.  The time has come for
    peace, but the man who sacrifices freedom for security will wind up
    having neither !

    Dan

    
    they could always settle their differences over a few pints of ale,
    and a 2 out of three sets in darts.

    Chris,
    
    Surely you're not saying that TALLIS::CELT is having a calm discussion
    on this topic?
    
    

    What on Earth are you going on about Dan?
    
    Perhaps you should try reading a history book once in a while,rather
    than just making childish statements on a serious subject.
    
     It would seem to me that you have gained all your insight into the
    situation in Ireland from a small book entitled,
    
       " History According to Hollywood "
    
           Tone.

    Normally I do not have time during the day to respond to some of the
    more over the top statements written in here but with regard to .1 and
    .14......
    
    With specific regard to the " kill more English " comment I assume
    you regard  the 8 year old boy in Warrington,blown to bits while
    shopping for a mothers day present, as a valid target !!!! 
    
    I suppose that anyone in a pub/railway station/shopping
    centre/non-military installation is a valid target !!!!
    
    Anyone who received a punishment beating/kneecapping/tar and
    feathering/complete division of family and community 
    even though they were not involved in military activity on
    either side were/are valid targets !!!! 
    
    Your co-workers on this side of the water have lived with this for
    decades to the point where shopping for presents at Christmas,going
    about your daily business,etc is assumed and accepted as a dangerous thing
    in certain parts of the country. 
    
    I cannot fully convey my DISGUST with your attitudes. You insult a great
    percentage of this companies staff with flippant, crass , insensitive
    and plain brainless comments like this. You have no real understanding
    of the situation in this country (the U.K). 
    
    If anything good came out of the Oklahoma bombing it should be the fact
    that idiots like yourselves have been given an insight into the effects
    of terrorist activities and the carnage, on many levels, it causes. 
                                                                          
    And I do not want any crap about forgetting to put a smiley in .1 OR
    justified struggle as nothing justifies the tactics employed by the IRA
    against non-military targets in recent years. 
    
    
    I have to stop writing now as I cannot continue typing and deleting
    until I find the right words because I don't think I will ever be able
    to.
    
                                
                        Stretch.
    
    P.S Keep up the donations to Noraid lads you're doing a great job
    supporting the freedom of the terrorist !!!!

   Sorry that should read ref .1 and .2 .
    
    
                       Stretch.
    

    re .17
    
    � It would seem to me that you have gained all your insight into the
    �situation in Ireland from a small book entitled,
    �
    �   " History According to Hollywood "
    
    Nah. "The Situation in Ireland by Joe Drotter" is Dan's source.
    
    Balders
    

    
    Stretch,
    
    Calm down, mate.  You need to get your sense of humor upgraded to
    the next version.  Being of Irish extraction, myself, I can understand
    why you would find nothing funny about .1, but its just black humor.
    People have been laughing in the face of death since the beginning
    of time, and sometimes that's the only thing that can make the
    misery tolerable.
    
    In other words, it was just a joke.
    
    If you've been reading these notes for any period of time, I'm sure
    you'll realize that Dick is not the kind of guy to be calling for
    English heads to roll, except in jest.
    
    On the other hand, Dan is a different story.  ;-)
    
    
    
    
    Rob
    

    Rob,
    
    	I have read notes regularly for 10 years now and I do know that certain
    people are inflamatory for the hell of it. 
    Usually I will listen and shake my head in disbelief at certain
    attitudes  catered for in this conference and carry on regardless as
    normally they are directed at their own country BUT  I cannot  ignore
    these  disgusting remarks when they are directed at other 
    countries problems of which they have little or no understanding. 
    
    Humor, dark or otherwise was not intimated, or responded too when
    questioned by another noter. Some things are too sick as I am sure we
    would have found out soon enough if we started cracking jokes about the 
    Oklahoma bombing.
    
    I read the original notes at which I took offence yesterday and went
    home thinking I would calm down as usual. Instead I spent most of the
    evening thinking more and more about the mentality of my co-workers and
    their insensitive noting. When I tried to get to sleep the words were
    just as vivid and sickening as when first read. Yeah right " boo hoo, poor
    sensitive soul. Mummy will make it all better" is the anticpated and
    previously aired comment to these sort of humane feelings.
    As I do not normally have time to do more than Read only at best or
    more often next unseen to try and keep up I can usually calm down.
    
    This pulled noting in this conference to a new low which, is going it
    some even by the culprits standards !!! If it was meant as a jibe at
    the English I can only surmise they are still annoyed at the SQF
    parting shots and they were Scots !!!
    
    Anyway cheers Rob. Let's see if they come up with some justification
    for the twisted comments on a very serious issue, orjust adopt the smiley
    missing line.
    
     			Stretch.  
    
    P.S Four people killed by a bomb in the French underground today. No
    responsibilty claimed. Oh well they were only French !!!! It is not
    funny. 
                                                            

    
    Stretch, you need help, lighten up or you'll give yourself a stroke. 
    As a previous boxer pointed out, it was a joke.  In fact a very old
    one.  I heard it probably 20 years ago from my grandfather, a Boston
    Irishman.  If you need me to explain it to you I will, e-mail me.

    Tone, Please clarify your question, and I will be glad to answer you. 
    I thought my statement was pretty clear cut, but if you missed it let
    me know.

    HTH
    Dan

    As someone who knows a victim of such appalling acts, I will treat your
    remarks (which ever fool wrote .1) with the uttter comtempt that they 
    deserve.  I would aslo welcome any opportunity to meet this weed as
    I'm sure that he really isn't as big or as tough as his pathetic
    terminal manner portrays him to be.  Don't worry Dung or Dan, you are safe
    behind your little terminal, aren't you?  
    
    On a slightly less sentimental note, you americans seem to have a
    gun-ho attitude that lands you in alot hot water don't you?  Shame that.
    
    Neil.  xxx

    
    <------
    
     Gettt a clue....
    

    
    Oh God here we go....

    Look Neil, Stretch, etc....
    
    That is precisely the point of the joke!  The Irish have been killing
    one another and the British for too long.  THAT IS WHAT THE POINT IS !!
    I suggest the next time you do not understand another's humor, you ASK
    FOR AN EXPLANATION, instead of spouting off.  When you do something as
    STUPID as going off half cocked you make all sorts of asinine
    statements like the last handful.  Jeeezz !

    Dan
    

    Dan,
    
    O.K We will let the "joke" side of it pass for a moment.
    
    BUT  
    
    There is a point you make about "not getting where they have without
    armed struggle "(.14) - The bombing of civilians is not armed struggle !!!
    Is this the kind of struggle they should not give up, and have made
    abundently clear they will return to if their agenda is not met.
    
    The IRA(rmy) have behaved in an increasingly foul manner within the
    last ten years and as such should have been renamed the Irish
    Republican Terrorist/Thug/Gangster Collective. Army garners too much
    respect.
    
    Your ex-pat Grandfather is exactly the sort of person who will spread
    stories of the "homeland" in the past tense whilst encouraging the
    present Irish Americans to donate to idiots such as Noraid with no real
    understanding of the situation in the present. I do not refer to "your"
    grandfather specifically. More the Americans of aged Irish descent. 
    
    As long as we live in, instead of learn from the past we cannot achieve
    any future. Stretch (TM)  
    
    Binder is at most fault for posting such an inflamatory comment with no
    explanation of source/humour etc. You compounded this, but at least we
    have your defence of " it was a joke " 
    
    
    Do you agree that your idea of "humour" has the potential to give an
    upsetting or ignorant viewpoint to your co-workers if you do not
    clarify it ? Quoting someone elses humour is no excuse.
    There was ample noting time left to you when the first comment about sick 
    humour was made to elaborate or explain but you did not
    
    
                            Stretch.

    Dan,
    
    You were writing .27 as I was doing .28. so there will be a slight
    misunderstanding coming up .
    
    I do ask for clarification in .28 and a couple of other things beside
    that. Perhaps you will oblige on those and not just the fact that it
    was a joke. Hiding behind "it's a joke" does not explain .14.
    
    		Stretch.
    
    

    .23, .25
    
    Stretch and Neil,
    
    I have no need to defend my wry remark in .1 from your sad inability to
    recognise irony.  Norm and Dan have already done so, for which kindness
    I thank them.
    
    However, I'll add to their recommendation a sincere hope that you will
    learn the truth of what Norm said, i.e., if we cannot laugh in the face
    of horror, we are lost.  Without laughter, we are less than human.
    
    As for you, Neil...
    
    > As someone who knows a victim of such appalling acts...
    
    Oh, good, a sympathy plea.  Don't think me callous out of not having
    known victims of appalling acts - I have done.  I've lost people who
    were among my dearest friends to senseless brutality.  But I can still
    laugh.
    
    I suggest you might want to look into biographies of Adolf Hitler and
    Maximilien Robespierre if you think a tough Irish fist is enough to
    deal with whatever comes your way.  The real "weeds" are capable of
    dealing with your sort without lifting a finger.

    
    > There is a point you make about "not getting where they have without
    > armed struggle "(.14) - The bombing of civilians is not armed struggle !!!
    > Is this the kind of struggle they should not give up, and have made
    > abundantly clear they will return to if their agenda is not met.

    I have not, and never will condone or encourage the massacre of
    innocent civilians. PERIOD !  However what I said still remains true. 
    There is NO WAY on God's green earth that there would be any movement
    for an independent Ireland if the people of Ireland had humbly followed
    along as quiet sheep.  Or even if they had tried to petition the
    British government for sovereignty.  You probably know British history
    better than I, but can you tell me with a straight face that this would
    have happened WITHOUT armed rebellion?

    > The IRA(rmy) have behaved in an increasingly foul manner within the
    > last ten years and as such should have been renamed the Irish
    > Republican Terrorist/Thug/Gangster Collective. Army garners too much
    > respect.

    I completely agree with this statement.  The IRA as they currently
    exist are terrorists, and not much more.

    > I do not refer to "your" grandfather specifically.

    Good thing, 'cuz thems fightin' words !

    > Do you agree that your idea of "humour" has the potential to give an
    > upsetting or ignorant viewpoint to your co-workers if you do not
    > clarify it ? 

    No, I assume that if someone doesn't understand something, they will
    ask questions, not go off half cocked.  I guess this was a bad
    assumption.  

    
    > Hiding behind "it's a joke" does not explain .14.
    
    I really resent this comment.  I hide behind nothing.  I state my
    opinion, if you need clarification, I'm always willing to provide it. I
    cower from no one.

    .14 was not a joke.  It was deadly serious.  ANY GOVERNMENT THAT CAN
    DISARM IS PEOPLE CAN SILENCE ITS PEOPLE !
                         -------
    This is why the Irish would be complete FOOLS to give up their weapons. 
    Although I am not a supporter of the IRA, it's the only real thing that
    can insure that the British actually do something in the way of
    sovereignty for Ireland.  This SEEMS to be what the majority of the Irish
    people want, therefore an armed resistance is needed to ensure that the
    British will deal in good faith.

    I hope this clarifies things for you
    Dan

    
    Wow man it's getting rather hot in here.
    

    to the indignant english:

    i've only had the pleasure of meeting mr. binder on one occasion,
    but i have known him through notes for close to a decade. you'd
    be hard pressed to find a person who puts more thought into what
    he writes. i know it is difficult to put an equal amount of thought
    into what you read, but i think you missed the point of mr. binder's
    original comment by approximately 180 degrees. mr. binder's comment,
    as i read it, was more of an indictment of the irish than an
    attempt to goad them into violence (lord knows, little goading
    is needed).

    aside from that, i would like to comment on the situation in
    northern ireland. one of my great grandparents (agnes sheehan)
    and my grandfather (george markey) were native irish. my
    grandmother (george markey's wife; doris higginbottom) was
    english. so, i could go either way on the loyalty front.
    however, i support the political goals of the catholics of
    northern ireland. one look at he political system in england
    should be enough to convince anyone that the english should
    stay out of the business of governing other countries. i
    understand that a large part of the problem is irish
    protestants loyal to the throne. england has a long history
    of despising freedom; and dan pointed out something that
    is frequently lost on the british: the right to keep and
    bear arms is central to the us constitution and central,
    many of us believe, to the preservation of a free society.
    the english government's hatred of arms in the hands of
    private citizens is well-documented; with the vestiges of
    colonial attitudes firmly intact, it is little surprise
    the irish want you out.

    bombing and killing is nasty business; i do not encourage
    or support it. on the other hand, it seems to be the
    only thing the english government has ever responded to.
    perhaps you should take a long hard look at your
    government and try to change the things that make your
    country the target of political violence.

    -b

>    aside from that, i would like to comment on the situation in
>    northern ireland. one of my great grandparents (agnes sheehan)
>    and my grandfather (george markey) were native irish. my
>    grandmother (george markey's wife; doris higginbottom) was
>    english. so, i could go either way on the loyalty front.

I find this of interest.  Many Americans who claim some form of Irish
ancestry use this as a basis to knock the English (I'm not saying you're
one of these people, btw!)  I wonder if it would come as a shock to them
to know that there are many English people, myself included, who also
have some Irish ancestry, and in plenty of cases have a more convincing
claim to Irish hereditary; so if the Irish and their descendants are meant
to hate the English, where does that leave me?  Should I start giving
myself a good slapping?  Ouch!  Tek that yer bastaad!  Sorry, I can't
continue typing as some English/Irish git has just broken my knuckles. :)

Chris.

    I read an interesting article in a magazine about 2 blokes who drank
    20 pints in 12 hours,hopping from pub to pub. (It was 40 pubs all
    listed on a tourist poster).
    
    Sounds like fun,I must say.
    

    er,this was in Belfast,btw. Just to add relevance to the topic.
    

    
    
    
    They have one of those posters for Boston, MA also.
    Saw one hanging in Frog Lane.
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

        re: .34

    i was attempting to point out that my heredity (being both
    documented irish and english) has nothing to do with my
    opinion on northern ireland. that's all.

    i wasn't english bashing either. if anything, i'm an
    anglophile. but the english have a bit of a historical
    problem when it comes to matters of governance.

    -b

>    i was attempting to point out that my heredity (being both
>    documented irish and english) has nothing to do with my
>    opinion on northern ireland. that's all.

I know (or at least guessed, anyway!), but some people do use various
ancestral claims on which to base their political opinions, which is
what I was on about.  Never was one for making myself clear! :)

Chris.

    I hate to do this, but since some fanatics have already mucked up
    the conference,
    
    
    Take it to TALLIS::CELT    !!!
    
    

  I suggest that some of the English in here, try reading one of the recent
  Amnesty International reports on Human Rights Violations in northern
  Ireland.  It might educate and enlighten you at the same time.  The
  British are the problem in north east Ireland.  They were the problem,
  and they continue to be the problem.  They sit and play games while the
  Irish Republican Army has held good on their cease-fire for almost a year.

  All the Nationalists are asking for, is that the British sit down at the
  table and talk to them, so they can find a permanent peaceful settlement
  to this problem.  The British are asking for a "surrender" of Republican
  arms.  Why should this be a precondition on sitting down and talking
  with their democratically elected opposition?  The Nationalists want all
  weapons out of Irish politics, including the folks who hold most of the
  weapons (the British forces in north east Ireland).

  I get sick to the back teeth of English whiners who can complain about
  the death of a child at Warrington, and yet seem to forget the Irish 
  children who have been butchered by British troops.  Who's complaining
  about the murder of Carol Ann Kelly (12 year old girl shot in the back
  by British forces, while on her way home from the store). You complain about
  a bombing in Warrington, and seem to forget the  worst bombing of the
  war (the SAS bombing in Dublin/Monaghan).  You can somehow justify "bomber
  Harris" and the murder of civilian children in Dresden, but see it as
  a crime when the people you've stepped on strike back.
 
  You live in a country without a Bill of rights, with legislation that
  judges men and women guilty for silence, you hold juryless trials, and
  your police are notorious for framing Irish men and women.  Clean up
  your own toilet of a country first before you condemn men and women who
  fight against this injustice.


                                Mark   

Good to see you in here, Mark!

Chris.

    My comments...
    
    The Irish make a good stout (Guinness).  The language is pretty cool,
    too, though I wish they'd learn a phonetic system of spelling.  8^)

> though I wish they'd learn a phonetic system of spelling.  8^)

I thought that was the Welsh.  Their roadsigns do my head in!

Chris.

    
    TTWA: Is there any country that Amnesty International DOESN'T 
          accuse of human rights violations?
    

Probably not.

Chris.

    re: .44
    
    Yes, them too.  Welsh is a cousin language to Irish Gaelic.

Or Irish is a cousin to Welsh Gaelic?  Anyway, the English language
is barely phonetic: plough, trough, rough; I rest my case!

Chris.

    
    how 'bout

    louse  ->  lice
    mouse  ->  mice
    spouse ->  spice..... whooops !

    :-)
    Dan

    re: .48
    
    Well, I never said English was any better.  I'm just more used to it. 
    8^)

    .41 
    
    The British Troops deliberately shot a 12 year old girl in the back?
    Astonishing. 
    
    I`m suprise you don`t justify the IRA by claiming that because they
    give a 15 minute coded warning before a bomb detonates that it`s the
    fault of the authorities for not acting more quickly.
    
    Or that you think Private Clegg is as guilty as the most cynical
    terrorist currently residing at Her Majesty`s pleasure.
    
    It`s a sort of a tit for tat mindset you`ve got. The Brit Govt do
    this,so therefore the IRA are justified in doing that.
    

    Dan,
       Thanks for the clarification. There are still a couple of points I
    do not feel we will agree on, the main one being "the right to bear
    arms". This, as far as I can see has never been used by the Americans
    to stop the evil/opressive type of government you seem to imply it
    would. The main occasions where arms have been used either against
    individuals or agencies of the government has normally been used by the
    lunatic fringe against the wrong targets i.e Kennedy, Oklahoma,etc .
    
    The gun culture that America holds dear has cost a lot of people,
    usually innocent ,their lives. I am glad that on the whole the U.K seem
    to be against the open availabilty of weapons. This includes the arming
    of the police. If guns came into general use things are bound to spiral
    upwards until we have shootings being as common an event on our streets
    as they are on yours. That is not to say that this is not the case
    already in certain ares of the U.K. If you want guns they can be
    easily obatined. Send your shopping lists and cheques to Stretch PLC.    
    The other point about not giving up their arms is proving to be a large
    sticking point in the peace process. Troops have been withdrawing
    heavily from Ireland and some action from the IRA conversly would be a
    sign of faith. They can't exactly pull out can they ?
    From the early seventies a decision was made to step the mainland
    bombing campaign up as it was getting more attention, although on the
    most part of the negative variety. I have spent the last three decades
    with the idea of a bomb going off where I live,shop,work as a real
    possibility. Two years ago very close when bombs were planted in
    Reading railway staion. When you have been living so long with these
    acts going on so close it is hard to see any humour in this situation 
    This is straying so will close the humour side down in this part of
    the note to be resumed further down....
    What I have trouble with here in your statement about not getting where
    they have without arms is that the IRA have not,on the whole, used
    conventional weapons in their activities both on the mainland and
    Ireland. Cowardly acts should not be rewarded with results. One thing a
    lot of people are r.o about the govermants handling of this is that
    they were talking to the IRA secretly while the bombings were still
    going on. I have a problem with the deceit but if it achieves a peace I
    can live with it.
    
    I feel that your bill of rights has some fundamentally good
    things within it, is clearly written and is generally a clear and
    understandable document. The idea of a "peoples charter" is regularly
    put forward by the EC and vetoed by the Tories. If a contract along the
    lines of the bill of rights could be drawn up I for one feel it wouldd
    be a good thing. Not verbatim mind you !
    
    ref .41   
    
    Mark,
    
    If you read my note properly you should be able to ascertain that I was
    railling against someones idea of humour and the sickness of it
    especially as it was regarding a subject they have no comprehension of.
    I do not condone any activity by a terrorist organisation wether they
    be loyalist or republican. Both sides have participated in evil acts
    which get potrayed as acts of war by their publicity machines. LIES.
    
    With regard to our poor governing of the province. My history is, I
    will admit, a little shaky but as I understand it the troops went in as
    a peace keeping force to prevent the catholics and protestants killing
    each other. Never mix religion and politics as you end up stuck in the
    middle being portrayed as the bad guy by both sides while they
    slaughter the innocents. There are still a great number of people who
    want to be part of the U.K (that is the UNITED kingdom) in Ireland and
    just want a democratic process which is adhered to. The ballot instead
    of the bullet sound good to me !!! I know it is more complex than this
    and hope that some 'boxers can fill in a few details. 
    
    The reason for choosing Warrington and Reading as examples of targets
    was to bring home the insensitivity of the "joke" as both locations
    have hundreds of your co-workers in them. Also add Belfast and Dublin
    to this. There are many horrific incidents involving women,children and
    other non-military people and my point was it was too sick to be a joke.
    
    With regard to your comments on our government I agree with you to a
    point.
    Given the time delay on your reply I assume you are over the water so   
    with regard to getting our house in order I think this just follows the
    "Americans as world police" lines which is laughable given the comments
    from a great percentage of the 'boxers about the failings of your own
    government.
     
    The bottom line regarding your reply is that you have missed the gist
    of my notes. It is that there are things that go beyond good taste and
    the line, as far as I am concerned had been crossed which brings me to
    
    Mr Binder - Do you have a point at which your taste levels cut in or is
    anything fair game. The gassing of Jews, Racist and sexist jokes etc do
    not need the PC brigade telling you they are improper. Good taste
    should prevail . Laughing in the face of death is not the point here
    as I am sure most would agree.
    
    Anyway I have to do some work now. See your replies soon, as you should
    all be arriving in an hour or so. 
    
    
                         Stretch.
    
    P.S Chris - Stop ratholing your own topic !!!! And you Stuart !!!! 
     

    .52
    
    Actually, .41 was incorrect on at least one point.  "England" does have
    a Bill of Rights, which was enacted in 1689, following the Act of
    Petition in 1628.  These were the first extensions of Magna Carta,
    1215.  Many US constitutional lawyers recognise these documents to be
    the actual basis of common law from which important principles of the
    US constitution, US Bill of rights and the process of judicial review
    are derived.  Some of the provisions of the US Bill of rights are
    identical to the English and some even appear in Magna Carta (Due
    Process).
    
    The fact that the English Bill of Rights, and later bills may not have
    gone as far as they could in advancing personal rights and freedoms is
    reflected in the large amount of migration from the Celtic fringe to
    the New World, which began during the mid-1600's.  Amongst which
    migrants were the Jefferson family, from the area of Llanberis, Eryri
    Snowdonia to Virginia.
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    
    
    

 re. .52

  Stretch,
     Please read the reports by Amnesty International and Helsinki Watch,
  on human rights violations in northern Ireland.  You said you don't 
  condone the act of any terrorist organization, be they loyalist or
  republican.  You forgot to mention the worst organizations of them all,
  the British Army, and the the British RUC.  They participate in
  state sponsored terrorism, perhaps the ugliest of them all. 

     British troops are not a peace keeping force.  They went in to ensure
  that 6 of the 9 provinces of Ulster remained under British occupation.
  Don't talk to me about democratic majorities, when you refer to a
  gerry-mandered line drawn by the British to create an artificial 
  majority.  Why not let the people of Ireland (as a whole) determine their
  own destiny, without British interference.

                                Mark

      

    Mark,
       Creatively ignoring the gist again ......... Re read my original
    before you repeat previous notes from yourself. Sick Humour was the
    bone of contention.
    
    		Stretch
    

    Stretch,
        You are really asking to get cremated with some of your
    statements... :-)  <the 2nd Amendment is a biggie over here>

    > .... the main one being "the right to bear
    > arms". This, as far as I can see has never been used by the Americans
    > to stop the evil/oppressive type of government you seem to imply it
    > would....

    Not to hit a sore subject, but does 1776 ring a bell?  The main thing
    is that the REASON that U.S. citizens have a right to free speech is
    because of the right to keep and bear arms.  Without our second
    amendment, how would the right to free speech be protected?  The
    constitution? BWAHAHAHA right!  It's just a piece of paper.  It's the
    weapons in the hands of the people that prevent an oppressive
    government from taking away those liberties.  In fact that is what
    you're seeing going on over here right now.  We have some individuals
    who believe that the federal government is doing just that, taking away
    our freedoms.  Some of these individuals are petitioning the government
    to change its ways, but others blew up the federal building in
    Oklahoma.

    > If you want guns they can be easily obtained.

    You have just identified why gun control laws will NEVER work.  The
    only person that the law affects is the poor law abiding slob who's
    going to follow it.  Generally speaking, this is not the guy who's
    gonna commit a crime !  Whereas to the criminal, who is going to commit a
    crime anyway, what's one more offense ?

    Tiny nit:
    > ...the IRA have not,on the whole, used
    > conventional weapons in their activities ...
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I didn't realize the IRA had Nuke/Chem/Bio - weapons !

    > If a contract along the
    > lines of the bill of rights could be drawn up I for one feel it would
    > be a good thing. Not verbatim mind you !
    
    Well, I wish you guys luck, but I think the first ten amendments it
    probably the place you want to start.

    Dan

    Dan,.56
     yeah, I will go along with most of those. I really need to learn this
    cut and paste malarkey.  Would cut down on a lot of missed noting....   
    
    We have just had a law come into effect which basically takes away your
    right to protest, amongst other things with the title of 'The Criminal
    Justice Act'. The list of items covered is too huge to go into but
    basically if your government implemented this it would cause a civil
    war !!! The gov line was if you do not break the law you should have
    nothing to worry about. This covers demos, parties and other non
    crimanal activities !!! Strangely enough the police are not too chuffed
    about this as they are already suffering enough cut backs without the
    gov heaping more (pointless) laws upom them to enforce. 
    
    I will continue to voice my protest on the streets of London, as we did 
    last Saturday (my birthady) against the Bosnian situation and the r.o our 
    government comes out with justifying their lack of action. 
    Normally this has resulted in me getting a good kicking, friends getting a
    criminal record and the right wing press having a field day(Poll Tax
    demo being the main example) when you go for a peaceful demo. Also
    swarms of riot police just waiting for the off down the side streets.
    Strangely on Saturday where the use of armed force was being called for
    the police were hardly present at all. Paranoia and conspiracy type
    stuff regarding the use of the police force in a right wing state !!!!
    
    Perhaps other U.K noters could come up with their favourite "law" they
    have broken since the law cam in. Stuart, that includes congregation
    prior to football matches.
    
    Anyway I am starting to rathole a little here....
    
    Ref Conventional weapons - I think you know what I mean about yhis
    really.
    
    The other thing about your bill of rights is your country was formed in
    more recent and turbulent times and as such has had to come up with
    laws during great change and unsettlement which I feel has swung the
    power more towards the people. This country on the other hand has been
    twisting the rules since 1215 (?) when the Magna Carta came in and has
    firmly set the power on the other side. Apparently(!) we live in a
    democracy and as such can positivly effect our laws through our
    parliamentry representative. Yeah right !!!!!! 
    
    Could you come come up with some dates as to when major amendments have
    occured in the constitution and what brought them about ?  
    
    There have probably been a few replies while I have composed this
    through the afternoon so any overlap is apologised for in advance.
    
                                  
                    Stretch.
    

    
    Here's a hint Stretch.
    
    Stop electing the same chuffing tories that have the same mindless
    ideologies that caused the colonists to rebel. 
    
    

    .58 Sorry did not catch the name.
    
    Yes 13 it is. We the people (sound familiar) on the whole have done
    just about all in our power to oust them. Normally what happens is the
    local council elections are used to buck the current gov'nt up and then
    the previous four years of power abuse are conveniently forgotton.
    Unless of course you can get a good war in to raise morale levels i.e
    the Falklands.
    
   Quote from todays NME from musician questioned on the last general election
    
    "I was literally giddy when that happened," Mark splutters . "I think
    80% of the population felt like they'd been punched in the head !.
    Like 'What the f... ? I don't live in a serious country anymore -
    That's it' And it's been silly ever since."
    
    That just about sums it up. Every four years they just punch you harder
    than the last time.
    
    I really do despair at the apathy of the British at times and you do
    begin to wonder "what's next ?".
    
    			
    			despairing_Stretch.

    
    See?  The yanks are right - we should never have given up the local
    Militias. (Yes, we actually had them during the Napoleonic wars.)

    
    <-------
    
    I'm stunned, simply stunned !
    
    Statements like that make life worth living !
    
    :-)
    Dan

    
    On the other hand Dan, the last Militia (Yeomanry) action fought on
    British soil was firmly pro-Govt and against an  American-lead French
    invasion force.

    .60 Sorry still no name.
    
    Yeah Stuff it ... let's tool up and pay conservative H.Q a visit. Now
    with regard to the ease of obtaining automatic weapons I better
    restablish some of my more dubious aqquaintances. Next stop the
    Internet for all those freely available bomb recipes <-(for real) !?!?
    
                  Direct_action_Stretch.
      

>I thought that was the Welsh.  Their roadsigns do my head in!
    
    Chris, 
    
    I can only repond with a sample of Geordie, taken
    from the book of Exodus:
    
    
    Noo the Gaffer ov aal the Israelites was a chep caaled Moses
    and he feel oot wi' Pharoah whe wez the gaffer ov aal the
    Gippos.  So Moses sez to 'is lads.  "Howway ower the Reed Sea."
    
    So they aal set oot wi' thor bairns ond thor posstubs, whippets
    an' galloways to plodge ower the watter.
    
    "Had on" sez Moses, "Had on", And he hoisted his deppity's
    stick oop ahight.
    
    Whey man, ye wadn't credit it. The watters parted.  Thor wez a
    wall o' watter an' a wall o' watter on the other.  So thor
    wez ne caall to plodge ower.
    
    So off sets the Israelites ahint Moses and efter them, het foot
    across the scaddin' het sands comes Pharoah and his lads.
    
    "Hey up" sez Pharoah "noo we've got them", and he gets his lads
    to whip up thor cuddies and they sets off te bray the Israelites
    tappy lappy ower the bed o' the Reed Sea.
    
    They wor ganning like the clappers - cuddies, brakes and sowljers.
    
    
    

re .64,

Your point being?  That quotation was perfectly clear to me.  :)

Chris.

    re .41 
    
    Uh-huh. looooooooser.

    bollox.

    
    <-------------
    
    Martin, what the heck was that for?
    

 A feeble attempt to get this topic moving again?

Martin just likes to say "Bollox".

       Bollox.

    	Clorox.
    

>       Bollox.
        
        Yours? Or clean ones?
        

       re .73:
       
       Bollox.

    
    pillocks
    

       Pill box hat

                 -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---M||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (00)       \
                      (  )        *
                    /
             Ba mhaith liom beoir, sea, ba mhaith.   
    

    I'm feeling dizzy again.

>
>                 -------|------|------------
>                        ++    ++
>                        ||---M||
>                        ||     |
>                       /\-------\
>                      (00)       \
>                      (  )        *
>                    /
>             Ba mhaith liom beoir, sea, ba mhaith.   
    
This, apparently, is symbology for the noter formerly known as Steve Leech.

    
    Speaking of Clorox, in my considered opinion Clorox brand bleach
    whitens much better than other bleaches, including supermarket and generic 
    brands.
    
    
    

 I like Dawn dishwashing detergent better than any of the other brands.




 Jim

    
    That's what I used to use, but now I have a dishwasher {beam}.
    
    I also use Tide powdered detergent.  Consumer Reports said it was the
    best, and I agree.
    
    

    
    >That's what I used to use, but now I have a dishwasher {beam}.
    
    	And what kind of detergent does she use?
    

 I use All liquid detergent and buy several jugs of it when its on sale
 in a Shaw's 2 for 1 deal.




 Jim

    I use Irish Spring soap.  My wife says "But I like it, too!"
    
    Chris

    
    Which is better, Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland?
    

    >Which is better, Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland?
    
    Must be southern, because it's warmer. I think!

	Steve, shouldn't that be :

	             -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---W||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (00)       \
                      (  )        *
                    

    Utterly reversed?

(I'm still trying to figure out what it is.)

    It's a cow on the ceiling, which is appropriate for the BOX.

Oh.

Yeah.

And here I thought it was supposed to be the representation of some sort
of IRA automatic weapon.

    
    	Get with the program, Jack ... IRA weapons diagrams would actually
    	be keeping with the topic of this note.  That was my 1st clue that
    	that wasn't what it was.
    

    Maybe the IRA has resorted to dropping cows on it's enemies. That would
    be consistent with this topic.   :)

>	Steve, shouldn't that be :

    Well, actually, this would be even better:
    
    
	         -------|--|--|------------
                        ___|___
                        ++    ++
                        ||---W||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------------*
                      (00)       
                      (  )         
                    

                     -------|--|--|------------
                            ___|___
                            ++    ++
                            ||---W||
                            ||     |
                           /\-------------*
                          (00)
                          (  )
    
    Now I see the light, it's a hanging cow lamp. This will definitely stop
    the strife in NI.  :)

    re .68 - Dan, I haven't got a clue. It was too long ago !! However,
    Jack's right, I do like using that word !

Clinton grants visa to Sinn F�in leader Adams

Saturday March 2 1996

By Robert Peston and James Harding in London, Patti Waldmeir in Washington
and John Kampfner in Bangkok � The Financial Times Limited 1995,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
US President Bill Clinton last night agreed to give a visa to Mr Gerry
Adams, the leader of Sinn F�in, the political wing of the IRA, against the
wishes of the UK government.

The granting of a three-month, multiple entry visa follows an outburst by Mr
John Major, the UK prime minister, on Thursday against the terrorist group's
failure to renew its ceasefire.

The British government has recently said Mr Major would not try to intervene
in any visa decision. However, ministers and officials have privately said
they would have preferred Mr Adams to be barred from the US.

It is understood that Mr Adams will not be allowed to raise funds while in
the US for St Patrick's day celebrations on March 17. He will also be barred
from a White House party to mark the Irish holiday.

He will have meetings with US officials, but not the president or secretary
of state, and will not be allowed on US administration property. The visa is
understood to be revocable if there are further bombings by the IRA.

A White House official said: "The president would not have taken the step of
approving the visa if he did not believe, based on our contact with Mr
Adams, that this could further the peace process."

A UK minister said last night the prime minister was unlikely to be incensed
by the US decision, since the visa conditions reflected the end of the IRA's
ceasefire. "It is not business as usual for Mr Adams", he said, while
admitting that it would have been preferable for the Sinn F�in president to
have been kept out of the US.

A Downing Street spokesman said: "This was, as we have always said, a matter
for the American government." British officials were understood to be
relieved that no meeting had been granted with the president or other
administration heads.

There was also uncertainty last night about whether the US had unilaterally
imposed a ban on fund-raising by Mr Adams or whether he had failed to ask
for the facility. There were reports that Mr Adams did not ask for
permission to raise funds, so the issue did not arise.

In a further setback for Mr Major, it emerged yesterday that the biggest
Northern Ireland party, the Ulster Unionists, are threatening not to
co-operate in talks designed to chose the method for special elections in
the province as a precursor to all-party negotiations.

The Ulster Unionists yesterday signalled they may not participate in the
talks in Belfast, but only discuss plans for elections through meetings with
ministers in Westminster.

Mr Ken Maginnis MP, the UUP spokesman on security, said: "We will not be at
Stormont [in Belfast] on Monday. We will decide beyond that if it is
necessary to be there."

Sinn Fein will have access to both UK and Irish government officials but
will not be invited to attend the ministerial talks until the IRA announces
a ceasefire.

    
    <-----
    
    Another reason Slick is on my feces-list...
    

    
			  (__)
                          (oo)
                   /-------\/ 
                  / |     || \ 
                 *  ||W---|| Dia ghuit!  (okay, sue me, there is no "snarf" 
                    ~~    ~~              in the Irish language...at least 
                                          I've yet to run across it... 8^))