Conference back40::soapbox

    Was his name Paul Rizzo??

    I hope they didn't ask him to climb into the trunk. :-)
    
    As for car salesmen... the single biggest motivator that "drives" me
    to keep my current car for as long, long, long as possible is the
    spectre of having to deal with car salesmen.  I thoroughly despise
    the experience, especially all of their little traveling-carnival
    backroom games that they furtively learned from a dog-eared 1956
    screw-the-customer sales guide, that they think are so clever.
    I love the looks on their faces when you short-circuit their little
    scripts; like Star Trek's Mudd-planet androids, their faces turn
    blank, and they go running to the backroom for the Sales Manager.
    "Norman, coordinate."
    
    It's pretty ironic, actually, that the very people who would benefit
    the most from our buying cars are the ones who repel us from doing
    so for years at a stretch.  And yet, they appear to be utterly
    clueless as to how we feel about them and that we're onto them.
    One of life's real mysteries.  Maybe it's something that you "turn
    into" after going through all of the training indoctrinations.
    
    One of my personal favorites is when the salesman is a frustrated
    actor, and comes out playing some kind of role.  They probably do
    a quick size-up when you walk into the door, and slip into the
    appropriate character that they think you'll find agreeable.
    
    Unfortunately, in my case, the last time I bought a car, the
    salesman pretended to be a geeky nerd.
    
    Chris

    Buying a car is an extremely painful experience. It is nearly
    impossible to come away feeling like you were not ripped off.

    On the other hand, there's some stuff you can do, but you have
    to know what you're looking for before the fact.

    The first step is to select one or more cars that you are interested
    in.

    The second step is to write to Consumer Reports. Give them the
    make model and year for each car type you are interested in.
    Each report will cost you $11 (or thereabouts). And by the
    way, I do not in any way endorse CR, in fact, I practically
    loathe their politics (which seem very transparent to me).
    But they have their uses...

    The report(s) you receive will list the manufacturer's transfer
    cost for the car, as well as the cost of each option. They
    also give you the price of the common option packages (the
    price the dealer paid).

    Ask the dealer point blank what he paid for the car. If he/she
    lies to you (check it against the sheet), you can decide if
    you want to continue.

    For most American cars, about 86% of the price you pay should
    be the transfer cost of the car. In other words, if you pay
    $10,000 for a car with a transfer cost of $8600, you are getting
    a good deal. The margin on foreign cars is around 80-82%.

    Dealer prep charges should be practically nonexistent. The
    dealer may also charge you a "stocking fee", and in some cases
    these fees are charged for the transportation of the vehicle
    to the dealer's lot. However, if such fees do apply, it will
    be listed on the CR report. If it's not there, you're being
    ripped off.

    Do not buy dealer installed options (alarms, floor mats, mud
    guards, etc.) You can do better with independent accessory
    dealers for these items.

    -b

    Re: .0
    
    >He says "You trading your car in?" I say "Yes, what does it matter?" 
    >He says you putting any down?" I say "probably more than a thousand, 
    >but what do you care?"
    
    Major error.  Since he didn't think the information mattered, he
    shouldn't have divulged it.  Because, of course, it does matter.
    
    Fix the price first.  Then talk trade-in and financing.

    	I've been pretty satisfied with my few dealings with used car
    	salesmen.  I just bought a used 1988 Caravan (minivan) with
    	low miles.  We closed the deal on 27-feb-1995.  This is mail
    	I sent to my father about it:
    
-------
    
	Well, after getting the radiator replaced in my car, the 
	vehicular hodgkins disease really set in, and it just went
	downhill.  The muffler went.  I can live with the noise.
	The heater started leaking into the car.  I had it bypassed.
	($21.00).  I can live without heat.  The rear window defogger
	kept blowing the fuse.  I can live with a frosted rear window.
	Then the (I can't remember the name of it) main gasket in the
	engine went so that all the coolant leaks out the exhaust in
	huge billows of steam.  I kept adding coolant, but ended up
	overheating a few times.  I was planning on being more diligent
	with keeping it filled, but the frequent overheats did something
	bad to the engine, and it started running very rough.  Still,
	it was operable.  Then the starter went.  That was the last straw.
	That would require another $200 job to get it running, and knowing 
	that I would have to replace the tires soon too (some of the steel 
	belt wires were even showing through), and the clutch, I just threw 
    	in the towel.

	At first I considered looking for another junker to get me through
	another year, but on a whim I went hunting for a nice used minivan.
	I came across a 1988 Dodge Grand Caravan for $8999 (marked down
	from 10,999 for the end of the month.)  "What can I do to get
	you in this car today?  We need to make our numbers and we're
	way behind this month..."

	I shopped around more and realized that this was a good price, 
	as similar ones were all $10K or more.  I went to AAA and found
	that book price for what I found was $8700.

	I called the guy back and said that I had to pay no more than
	$8000 or I'd walk away.  "Do you have anything to trade?"
	"You can have my datsun, but you'll need to bring a tow truck
	to my house..."
	"I'll give you $499 for it, so the price will be $8500 plus
	trade."
	"I said we have to do $8000 or nothing."
	"Let me call you back."  (10 mins later) "The manager says
	$8250"
	"Sorry.  $8000"
	"Let me call you back."  (While I was on the phone he called
	back and left voicemail.)  "$8100"
	I didn't call him back.  I figured if he called me back he
	was desperate.  Sure enough, he did.
	"I told you it has to be $8000"
	He called back again later and said, "If you come down tonight 
	and sign it all, you win."
	"How late are you open?"
	"8PM".
	"Can we do it at 8:30?  I have to pick up my daughter at 8."
	"Then can you go up to $8250 for the inconvenience?"
	"You insult me.  I'm doing this for YOU tonight, and you
	tell me about YOUR inconvenience?  I'll tell you what.  Wnen
	we were test driving you told me that you'll get me the best
	loan for my budget, and not the one that gets you the best
	kickback.  Well I don't care about the terms you arrange.  You 
    	just get me the $8000 sale price."

	He liked that.

	We showed up at 8:30, and he had a nice fat 15% loan ready
	for me.  At that point we were just dealing with their finance
    	guy.  I asked him if I could pay on my credit card instead, and
    	he was glad to let me.  They can have their 15% loan!

	Just this past week our Master Card sent us an offer that if we 
	transfer any other credit card balances to them, they'll charge 
	us 8.9%.  So I put it on my discover card (where I'll get a 1% 
	cashback bonus) and then sent in the paperwork to transfer the 
	balance to the mastercard.  The transfer will happen before the
	discover card comes due, so I won't have to start paying
	interest on the money until I fail to pay the full balance
	once it shows up on the mastercard.  And that may take a whole
	extra month.

	Why didn't I put it directly to the mastercard?  Because the
	offer of 8.9% was only on transferred balances.  I can play the
	game!

	Oh, one last detail that happened.  When I was test driving
	the van, I asked if I could have my mechanic check it over.
	"Sure!" he said.  But then the "do it tonight" part of the
	deal took that away from me.  I made him write into the agreement
	that I still had the option to do that the next day, but he
	insisted on limiting his liability to $200.  That wasn't 
	sufficient to me at all.  I wanted protection against some
	hidden MAJOR problem (engine, transmission), not routine things
	like needing new brakes or shocks.  He stuck to his guns,
	but then Linda reminded me that the purchase was made on
	the credit card, so that would protect us from faulty
	merchandise.  As it turns out, the van checked out in
	excellent condition the next day.

	Did I mention that the van comes with a brand new set of
	Bridgestone tires?

	This all happened on Monday (and I took Tuesday off to get the
	car checked and wait for the tow truck to show up for my
	car.  As it turns out, he didn't tow it, but push-started
	it, and off he chugged down the road, with a cloud of antifreeze
	fog following him.)

	I didn't realize how stressful the negotiating was until
	Tuesday.  Boy, was I really tired all day yesterday!  But
	it was certainly fun!

    	...

    Like anything in the world, there are good ones and there are bad ones.
    
    We've dealt with Hayes Motor Company in Colorado Springs for almost 15
    years.  They have been in business for 55 years, have a small lot with
    less than 20 used cars on it at any time.  All tend to be low mileage,
    recent models (2-5 years old).  And clean!!!  Every car on his lot has
    a sticker with year, make, mileage and *price*.  You know up front what
    he wants for the car.
    
    Not only can you buy off the lot, but he also acts as new car broker,
    as well as used car scout.  When you want to buy a new car, he tells
    you to go talk to Mr. X at the Y dealership, find something you like
    and come back and see him.  When we first started using him, he charged
    $300 over his cost, today it is $700.  Of course, since he is a dealer,
    his cost is rock bottom, no quibbling, manufacturer wholesale.
    
    Currently we are asking him to scout for a 1994 <specific car> at the
    auctions he is attending.  We want to slip into some luxury at a low
    price.
    
    -- Jim

    re: Brian-
    
     Instead of paying Consumer Reports, I just go down to the local
    bookstore and get the latest issue of the Edward's buyer's guide. It
    has all of the same information you get from Consumer Reports, but it
    has it for all makes and models, and only costs $5. And it also tells
    you what domestic manufacturers are using as the holdback percentage.
    So you can calculate what they are _really_ paying as opposed to what
    their invoice is. (Except it doesn't tell you about any special
    incentives from the factory, like rebates, etc.)
    
     So here's the deal, you decide which kind of cars you like and add up
    the invoice prices. Then you subtract the holdback percentage. Now you
    have the dealer's cost. So you stroll into the dealership and ask them
    if there are any rebates which apply to the model in question. If there
    are, then you subtract them out as well. Now you add $1000, and tell
    them "this is what I will pay you for the car." And be ready to do
    business immediately.
    
     It's best to sell your car privately and come to the dealership with a
    fattened checkbook. They really want to make money not only on the car
    they are selling you, but also on the trade, so you are much better off
    in a private sale.
    
     Once you know the game, you can put the wood to them the way they put
    it to you in the past. Knowledge is power.

    >Edmund's. 
    
     Thanks.
    
    >The best way to counter this pressure: once you've
    >decided on the car you want and the price you'll pay, go to the
    >dealer and put a time limit on negotiations.
    
     Also, you have to be willing to walk away if it's not your deal. If
    they can tell you are just dying to have a particular car, they'll wait
    until you relent. Once I gave the saleman a business card on which I'd
    written my home phone number and told him that when he became serious
    about selling the car to give me a call. Took about two hours for the
    phone to ring.

    
    New and used salespeople seem to run in the same category.
    
    About two months ago we were with some friends who went to a Ford 
    dealership to look at a brand new 1995 Ford Explorer.  They were ready
    to deal that day.
    
    We walk in, no one wants to work with them.  After asking again, they
    get a guy to help them out. They tell him what they want but they want
    to test drive one also. The car guy tells them they don't test drive
    the 95's because they don't want to put mileage on them.
    
    After a bit, he apologizes for his behavior, we go out for a test
    drive.  (I didn't like the vechicle).  They were asking questions, and
    they heard a swishing noise, asked what it was, the guy says "What
    noise, and turns up the radio."  Now, we are less impressed.
    
    THey go inside to talk numbers, they had planned to lease it and seeing
    the wife is a finance person and they had talked to one dealership
    already they had their numbers ready, plus, they were going to trade in
    an Acura.
    
    The sales guy comes out with a $500/mo lease. They ask how he got that
    number and he says "I'm not telling you." At this point my husband and
    I were in shock.
    
    To make this short, the car dealer went to talk to someone and this
    person told him to tell us to leave. He comes back, tells them to
    leave, he's not doing business with them. We were all in shock
    considering this was a $30,000 vechicle!!!
    
    We left, and they leased a Nissan.
    
    Mary
    

re: .8

I believe that the Edmunds info on the web is only INVOICE and LIST, not cost.
To get the cost figures, I think you've got to go out and buy the book.

Bob

    Never go alone to buy a car, especially of you're a woman.
    
    I took my sister and daughter with me to buy my present Mazda from
    Bornaville (sp) in Lowell.  We kept the salesman on the move all the time. 
    When he started the BS we changed the subject; one person kept a list of 
    what he had said/promised and referred back to the list from time to
    time. While the salesman was trying to pressure me into signing a letter of 
    intent(?) with a price higher than I said I would agree to, they were 
    taking up the floor to look for the spare tire and started taking it 
    out of the trunk.  I was convinced the booth was bugged.  We had
    a conversation, after the salesman left the booth, that was full of
    half finished remarks and answers.  Bush would have been proud of us.
    When the salesman returned he looked worried and confused.
    
    When they still wouldn't agree to my price (which was that listed in
    Consumer Magazine as a fair price) we went to McDonalds on the
    otherside of the lot, let them stew in their juice for a hour and
    then came back for one last try -- we got the car.  They called us
    the tag team (they were right there) and they weren't being complimentary.
    
    It was the best 5 hours fun I have had in a long time.
    I don't have to haggle over a washing machine or deep freezer, why is
    it necessary over a car.  I also noticed that there two prices on the
    cars - and we didn't get a clear answer when we asked why.  My daughter
    thinks that it was one price for people who speak English and another
    for those who don't (Lowell has a large Asian population).

    
    
    	Remind me not to read this string come fall. =)  I've decided
    	to give up the beast (my '87 rusting like crazy Toyota pickup
    	with 147k miles) for something newer.  I do, however, plan to
    	bring two male friends with me who LOVE to haggle with car
    	salespeople.  They're sick, I know.  =)   If all works out
    	well (and I can afford a used Saturn *from* a Saturn dealership)
    	then I won't have to bring them along.  Saturn of Nashua has 
    	been praised by women in another notesfile for treating them
    	fairly.
    
    	Either way, it's been 6+ years since I've had to deal with 
    	car salespeople.... oh joy.
    
    	JJ
    

    I'd like to share a 'used car' experience my husband and I had a few
    years ago.  We traded in our old pickup for a newer model foreign job
    at a dealer in Nashua's south end.  The odometer read 50,000 miles,
    which we thought was reasonable given the age of the car.
    
    When we brought the car home from the dealer, I decided to look in the
    glove compartment.  Nothing very unusual was in there except for one
    little very important paper.  Evidently this car had been wholesaled
    by another local dealer and this paper had been signed and dated
    recently by that dealer attesting to the fact that the odometer reading
    was 110,000 miles.  The paper also referred to the VIN of the car we
    had just bought.  
    
    We immediately called that dealer to confirm this information, which he
    did.  We then went back to the dealership who sold the car to us and
    explained the situation.  We wanted to return this car and get our old
    pickup back.  He was very unreasonable and refused to deal with us.
    We then met with our attorney who subsequently called this dealer and
    put the fear of God in him.  He also reported the dealer to the State.
    We returned the car and were able to get back our trade-in.
    
    Since then we have looked at other used cars at other dealers, and we
    always look in the glove compartment.  The former owner of one of these
    vehicles was very meticulous; there was a complete maintenance history
    in the back of the owner's manual and there had been major repair work
    done on this car.  We didn't buy it.
                                        

    Years ago, I bought a late model 71 super bug from South Main. It ran,
    and ran and ran. Despite the dealership. I went to trade it in for a
    new Nissin/Datsun and got holly hell from the Nashua dealership cause I
    bought the thing from South Main. Like sew a scarlet 'S' or an 'A' or
    my chest someone.:) I then decided it would be best to sink more $$$
    into it to make it run another trouble free 5 years, which I did.:)
    Then when the sucker was soo old and craggey and needed a floor, a this
    and a that. Traded it in with a few hundered down on a new Toyota
    truck, SR-5 with all the neet toys attachements. And drove that for 11
    years. Moral of the story. Drive the dam thing till there is holes in
    it the size of a small child, then sell it, for a new one and forget
    what the heck happens at or in the dealership cause the car, not the
    dealership, will out last all of the above. 
    
    

    OH yes. Prior to the 71.,,, I owned a new 1973, shinney, yellow,
    American made, chevy, Vega... And when you look up the word Vega in the
    websters... is a star in a constalation called 'Dog'... or Dawg..... it
    was a real prize.:)
    

>         <<< Note 427.16 by MKOTS3::RAUH "I survived the Cruel Spa" >>>

>    American made, chevy, Vega... And when you look up the word Vega in the
>    websters... is a star in a constalation called 'Dog'... or Dawg

Er, actually Vega is in Lyra, which is a lyre (or is it liar?). Sirius and
Procyon are the bright stars in the dog constellations.

Yah, after putting some $20k into mine (purchase price was $13.5 in 1986), I
intend to run it into the ground. Won't be long now that the rust has
started...

    .17
    
    > purchase price was $13.5
    
    You paid thirteen and a half bucks for a Chevy Vega???  You got took!

    
    you also didn't get a good deal.

    
    
    Paid $300 for a 1983 chevy vega in 1985.  :')

    >Paid $300 for a 1983 chevy vega in 1985.
    
    
    Was it worth it?!?!
    
    ...Tom

    
    It twas it twas.  Spent a lot of money on oil, but then I saved a lot
    on gas.  It ran fine for better than 5 years.
    
    
    Mike

    glad to see things are no different for you re. used car salesmen!!
    
    ric

"Fill it with oil and check the gas."

                      <<< Note 427.12 by TOOK::GASKELL >>>

>    I don't have to haggle over a washing machine or deep freezer, ...

    	Ah, but the beauty of life is that you CAN haggle over a washer,
    	or a pair of shoes, or a new suit, or a microwave...
    
    	... and you CAN get a better price (or at the very least some
    	add-ons for the marked price) most of the time.  Especially if
    	it is a commissioned sale, or of you are dealing with the owner
    	of the business.  You are not going to get very far haggling 
    	with the stock-clerk at the Wal-Mart, so save your breath.
    	When I bought our over-the-range microwave I got them to throw
    	in a 2-year maintenance contract for free.  And when I when we
    	bought our new TV I haggled with the salesman to knock $20 off
    	price by agreeing to a $20 reduction in the commission he would 
    	collect on the sale.  On a recent trip to the clothing store I
    	made sure to comment to my wife loud enough that the salesman
    	could hear, "Boy, if the price for these pants was $29 instead 
    	of $39, I'd probably get two pair."  He came right over and said 
    	that he could do that for me if I bought two.  I did.
    
    	And if you didn't know, real estate agents are usually VERY 
    	willing to play with their commission by a percentage point
    	or so if it will mean the difference between making or losing
    	the sale.

    Yup, haggling over the price of stuff is good fun (and thrifty).  In
    fact, unless you are wealthy, it is a necessity on the more expensive
    items.  
    
    When I was tv shopping I haggled several different times with the same
    sales guy.  After leaving twice, he realized that they would have to do
    a bit more to meet my price.  What started as "we can't come down more
    than $50 off our discount price" on the first trip, turned into $100
    off the discount price and free delivery (another $25 savings)- for a
    total of $125 savings (+ the additional tax of that $125)- on the third
    trip.
    
    Even discount huts with relatively low discount prices will STILL come 
    down if you work them properly. 
    
    
    -steve

re Vegas:

My father once rented a Vega, liked it so much he bought one
used, and after this one got taken out by a taxi he bought another
one new.  This one he kept for a while, and it was even repaired
after being totalled, twice (each time not that serious damage, but
the attitude of insurance companies was, if it ran out of gas, it
was totalled.. :-) ) and after over 100K miles it didn't burn oil.
But then he gave it to my sister who didn't take care of it, and
it soon lived up to its reputation... 

Secret to these things was NEVER let them run low on coolant or
oil...  Maybe they liked to be pushed hard too (this car was
broken in by a high speed 150 mile run down the NY thruway to
catch an international flight)

-Madman

I got this in my mail:

                    ... happened to us when we were looking to buy a new
car.  The salesman spoke only to my husband.  when I asked a direct
question, i was ignored.  when I insisted, the salesman told my husband the
answer.  When I really persisted, the salesman told me "honey, your husband
has been buying cars for a long time.  why don't you go home and make babies
or something?" (his words!)

    .25
    
    The point is that you don't have to haggle over a car, you have 
    to jump through hoops to even get a price.  I go into Sears,
    ask the assistant for the price on a freezer, they give it to me
    and if I want' I can try to cut that price down.  
    
    I go into a car salesroom and if I've done my research, I will know what 
    is a fair price for the model I'm looking at.  The salesman will first
    give me a lot of guff about the glove compartment, color, style.
    Then he will start to quote a skyhigh price and, because he's a nice
    guy he'll "cut some off the price for the little lady".
    
    I will only get a fair deal if I'm 1) tough, 2) informed, 3) know how
    to wheel and deal and 4) have a lot of time to waste.
    
    There isn't anything beautiful about spending a Saturday afternoon in
    a car dealership being insulted by a lot of lame brained jerks, just
    to buy a car.  That's why my next car will be a Saturn.

    
    	When I went to buy the Supra in January, I said "Yes, this is a
    	nice car.  I like it.  I don't want to spend any more than $5K
    	[not including trade]."
    
    	The price started at $8500, which is book value [+/- $100 or so.]
    
    	After a few calls, the salesman came down to my price, and I
    	went in and picked up the car the next day.  It doesn't have to
    	be difficult.
    

                      <<< Note 427.29 by TOOK::GASKELL >>>

>    There isn't anything beautiful about spending a Saturday afternoon in
>    a car dealership being insulted by a lot of lame brained jerks, just
>    to buy a car.  That's why my next car will be a Saturn.

	Our local Oldsmobile dealer has gone the "one price" route (I don't
	know if this applies to other Olds dealers) and it made the process
	a lot less annoying. The only haggling came over the trade-in and
	we ended up splitting the difference between what I wanted and
	what they offered so we made the deal that night.

	The only easier purchase was using the Ford Motor "A" Plan 
	(employee purchase), dealer invoice minus 2%.


Jim

                      <<< Note 427.29 by TOOK::GASKELL >>>

>    The point is that you don't have to haggle over a car, you have 
>    to jump through hoops to even get a price.  I go into Sears ...
    
    	I've never been to a car lot -- new or used -- where there wasn't 
    	a price sticker on the car.  
    
    	I take that back.  I have been to some, and all I had to do was
    	ask for the price, and they gave it to me.
    
    	Now, I'm not pretending that the listed (or stated) price was
    	the fair price, so you're right, you have to have done your
    	homework to know if it is fair or not.  Then again, if you agree
    	to it, I would say that it is fair.  If the price is too high
    	for you and you agree to it nonetheless, I can't see too many
    	places to point the blame.  Nobody is forcing you to buy it
    	after all!
    
>    I will only get a fair deal if I'm 1) tough, 2) informed, 3) know how
>    to wheel and deal and 4) have a lot of time to waste.
    
    	The only part about wheeling and dealing that really matters is
    	that you have to less need to buy the car than the salesman has
    	need to sell it.  (Or at least you have to convince him so.)
    	The more desperate party is most apt to lose in dickering.
    
    	So far, I have enjoyed my car-buying experiences.

    Re: .32
    
    >I've never been to a car lot -- new or used -- where there wasn't a 
    >price sticker on the car.
    
    Sticker price has only a small amount of bearing on asking price.  (At
    one point I thought I might want to buy a Hyundai.  They wouldn't sell
    one for sticker price.  I decided I wasn't interested.)
    
    
    Re: in general
    
    My current plan is to examine various models, choose which ones I like
    and what features I want, work out what I'm willing to pay, then walk
    in and say, "This is what I want.  This is what I'll pay.  Yes or no?" 
    And if they say no, I leave.

    
   >	The only part about wheeling and dealing that really matters is
   > 	that you have to less need to buy the car than the salesman has
   > 	need to sell it.  (Or at least you have to convince him so.)
   > 	The more desperate party is most apt to lose in dickering.
    
    
    	This is a very good point, and could possibly be the reason
    	that I got the Supra so cheap.  I told the salesman up front
    	that I already had a car and that I was looking for a 2nd.
    	So he was well aware that I was in no hurry to agree to his
    	1st offer if I didn't like it.
    

    re .8:
    
    Edmunds new car price info can be found on the Web at
    
    gopher://gopher.enews.com:2100/11/showroom/edmunds/newcars
    
    I believe it has list price and dealer cost.
    
    _jeff

    
    I see that Edmunds on the Web now includes used car prices as well.
    
    gopher://gopher.enews.com:2100/11/showroom/edmunds/usedmake