Conference back40::soapbox

    	I agree with that last sentence.

    > As for the details, it's not so much remembering things as it is
    > being able
    > to keep shuffling details around until you get them right.
    
    Well, George, I'd rather hire a programmer who get them right the first
    time than one who takes four passes through the compiler.  There's
    something to be said for efficiency when you're on a six-months product
    release cycle.  Also, that the programmer spells the keywords right
    suggests that his other coding is likely to have fewer bonehead bugs in
    it.

    My boss is a terrible speller, but wow can he code!
    
    I've never seen anybody who could throw software together faster than
    this guy.
    
    But, alas, there's no more room for him here. 8-(

	>>Spelling, on the
        >>other hand, is little more than an exercise in memory.

	It's also possibly an indicator of an exacting mind.

	I take two people - one who's well-written, one who's not.
	I know they can both work well with users and they both
	know the tools.  Who would I feel more comfortable giving
	the job to?  The well-written one.  Sorry - that's just
	how it is.

| <<< Note 342.3 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "bouncy bouncy" >>>


| But, alas, there's no more room for him here. 8-(

	Is he sharing an office with you and the gang? 

| <<< Note 342.6 by EMIRFI::CAMPBELL >>>

| -< Your a poor judge of character. >-

	And YOU'RE a poor spella.....

	Milady (tm), your node name is spelt wrong. You left out the letter
"a". Hope this helps Milady (tm).

 re:.6 (disappearing or otherwise)

Pray tell, Mr. Campbell, where did I mention "character"?
I'd appreciate it if you'd read more carefully in the
future, I really would.  I was talking about spelling as _one_
possible indicator of ability, certainly not of character.

Geez Louise.

	Now see, if you had spelt that correctly the first time, you would not
have had to go back, delete your note, and readd it again. Think of a HUGE
program that was just compiled and crapped out due to spellin erreorzzz....:-)

	.11  To whom are you speaking, Glen?
	     Not me, I hope.  I didn't delete and readd any notes.

    .12
    
    Your .10 has mysteriously occupied the place of a .10 written by
    Campbell, which previous .10 has disappeared.

| <<< Note 342.10 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>


| re:.6 (disappearing or otherwise)

	It disappeared AGAIN! It used to be .10....

| Pray tell, Mr. Campbell, where did I mention "character"?

	You did mention it MiLady (tm). You see, when you said spelling
matters, you are dealing with individual charachters. LETTERS!!!!  (ok, you can
smaq (tm) me now)


Glen

    Re .6 - let's hope it stays there this time...
    
    If the ability to spell well can reflect an inherited talent, then
    people who have not inherited that talent can make up for its lack by
    study and by diligent use of spelling and grammar checkers.  These
    tools are not no-brainers, of course, but at least their use indicates
    a recognition that there's a problem.
    
    A poor speller, no matter how intelligent or well intentioned, is not
    going to be a great asset to a documentation group because copy that
    requires character-by-character editing is wasteful of editors' time. 
    Such a person is also going to be less than great in marketing; I've
    seen some TERRIBLE gaffes in marketing brochures, and I gotta tell you
    they don't instill confidence that the product itself is going to be
    checked for errors any better than the advertising stuff.

        Reply PENUTS

    It's crass for you to think that you can judge a person's mindset by
    their spelling abilities.  The ability to spell well can reflect an
    inherited talent, not a person's attention to detail.
    
    --Doug C.

RE               <<< Note 342.2 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

>    Well, George, I'd rather hire a programmer who get them right the first
>    time than one who takes four passes through the compiler.  There's
>    something to be said for efficiency when you're on a six-months product
>    release cycle.  Also, that the programmer spells the keywords right
>    suggests that his other coding is likely to have fewer bonehead bugs in
>    it.

  I'll take the guy who makes 4 passes through the compiler. Making 4 compiles
takes about 4 minutes, including editing. Pouring over your code "desk checking"
for syntax errors would take 10 times that amount.

  Knuth was wrong, the programmer of the future will not make only 11 coding
errors in his life and remember each one. Machines were made to work for
people, not the other way around. Why take valuable programmer time to find
in an hour of desk checking what a compiler can find in a few minutes.

  George

	re .6 - now you see it, now you don't.  hey, maybe
	        Doug's one of those latter-day magicians!!  ;>

| <<< Note 342.12 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>


| .11  To whom are you speaking, Glen? Not me, I hope. I didn't delete and 
| readd any notes.

	Not you MiLady (tm). You would never do such an evil deed. It was heir
Campbell who has gone forth and done this evil deed. He took his evil and vile
note which occupied .6 of this notes string, deleted thy note, and readded it 
to note .10 of said string. Whilst I was responding to thy Campbell's note, thy
master deleted his note, and the fine, ever beautiful, ever loving, yes, you,
Milady (tm), had her love filled note enter unto his evil departure. Ohhh...
smell the flowers scent that replaced the stinking, rotting, dead carcass smell
of that evil and vile note!



Glen-your-ever-so-humble-servant

    Yes it was at .10.  It is now back at .6 with the horrible, glaring
    error corrected.
    
    --Doug C.

	And while we're at it, Doug, what's with this "crass" bit?
	"Crass" means "grossly stupid, tactless or insensitive".
	
	Oh, pardonnez-moi for my grossly stupid, tactless, or 
	insensitive assertion that someone who's well-written _might_
	make a better programmer.  Cripes, what is your problem?

  

RE              <<< Note 342.15 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

>    If the ability to spell well can reflect an inherited talent, then
>    people who have not inherited that talent can make up for its lack by
>    study and by diligent use of spelling and grammar checkers.  These
>    tools are not no-brainers, of course, but at least their use indicates
>    a recognition that there's a problem.

  No, their use indicates that there is a solution.
    
>    A poor speller, no matter how intelligent or well intentioned, is not
>    going to be a great asset to a documentation group because copy that
>    requires character-by-character editing is wasteful of editors' time. 

  I'm an engineer who's a terrible speller yet on my 2nd to last review I got a
compliment for helping our documentation group. So much for that theory. 

>    Such a person is also going to be less than great in marketing; I've
>    seen some TERRIBLE gaffes in marketing brochures, and I gotta tell you
>    they don't instill confidence that the product itself is going to be
>    checked for errors any better than the advertising stuff.

  So designate an editor to read the marketing releases. I'm not saying that
spelling is not a useful ability in some areas, it's just not all that useful
outside of final proof checking of documentation.

  George

    
    Ask Dan Quayle...
    
      bb

re: .16, George

.2>    Well, George, I'd rather hire a programmer who get them right the first
.2>    time than one who takes four passes through the compiler.

>  I'll take the guy who makes 4 passes through the compiler. Making 4 compiles
>takes about 4 minutes, including editing. Pouring over your code "desk checking"
>for syntax errors would take 10 times that amount.

I think the point is that the programmer who gets it right the first time due
to better spelling abilities does so in about the same amount of time as the
poorer speller, and SAVES the extra four compiles. There is no initial outlay
of 10 times the effort due to the need to pore over the code with exhaustive
desk checking as it comes out closer to right the first time.

You'd be correct to conclude that many folks whose spelling appears to be
better than others, accomplish that not so much with the use of the tools,
but rather through the ability to do it right first.

    I'm definitely scratching my head over this one. Most of
    the cream-of-the-crop of programming that I've met were simply
    awful writers. Spelling is the least of it. I could easily
    name you a dozen engineers in Digital who are nothing short
    of brilliant, but who fail miserably as writers. I suppose
    if you have a bee in your bonnet about this, far be it from me
    to argue, but I'd hire any of these people in a shot.

    However, the _real_ reason I'm writing is because I just became
    aware of a feature of the editor I've been using in notes.
    It has a _built in_ spell checker. I was not aware of this,
    so perhaps others are unaware as well.

    The default editor in notes has a "command" mode, which can
    be reached in several ways, but on my PC keyboard is most
    easily reached by typing control-B. Once at the command
    prompt, simply type "spell" (without the quotes, of course).
    A new process will be spawned and VAXspell is invoked.

    Easy as pi. :-) :-) :-)
    
    -b

	It doesn't have anything to do with having a bee in one's
	bonnet.  It's sort of simple mathematics.  Add up the 
	assets of people and if all other things are equal, but
	one of them has a good command of the language, that person
	comes out on top.  It ain't rocket science, as they say.
	 
	I dare say no-one in this file would be silly enough to 
	say that bad speller = bad programmer, but good speller
	_might_ = exacting thinker.  And exacting thinker _might_ =
	good programmer.  Why is this such a difficult concept?

	It's an asset, pure and simple.  It _can_ make a difference,
	depending on the situation.

    Spelling does matter IMO.  When you sit down and write something out
    you may be judged almost as much by the spelling as by what and how it 
    is said.  The amount of misspellings without any attempt to correct by 
    "senior" managers causes me to wonder about their intelligence and 
    certainly does not instill confidence in other areas.  I often have a
    hard time seeing through the spelling errors to get to the point being
    made.  Color me crass if you will but I will and do make judgements 
    based upon spelling when all I have to go on is what someone has written.  
    I recognize this as a fault in myself however as I have worked with 
    admittedly bad spellers and they were quite capable at their jobs. 
    First impressions are still just that though.  Add to that the number 
    of typos I make and don't bother to go back and fix, I narrow the 
    amount of room I have to talk at least in public :-).  I find the 
    amount of misspellings in the paper, advertisements etc. to be appalling 
    as well.  Fits right in with the dumbing down of America concept.  
    
    Brian, Brain, Brina

    	While I stated in .1 that spelling is not a good indicator of
    	software ability, I also believe that spelling does matter.
    
    	Poor spelling skills stand out.  
    
    	I don't believe it matters so much in a forum like SOAPBOX,
    	however.  This is such an informal arena.  I think the current
    	spelling pickiness fad that seems to have replaced snarfing is
    	a bit tedious and distracting.  Still it *is* educating!
    
    	And I think that there is a difference between spelling mistakes
    	and flat-out poor spelling ability.  You can picj out a typo or
    	a fast-fignered inversion of letters.  Excusable.  But some 
    	spellings are obviously wrong.  Regardless, this isn't a technical
    	document.  This isn't coding.  This isn't a paper that is being
    	submitted for grading.  This is just SOAPBOX.

    On the whole, the spelling in soapbox is really quite good. If you want
    to see really bad spelling, surf the Internet, why I think even George
    would be appalled.

    	re .22

    	We've been through that before.

    	Quayle was given a flash card with the word misspelled on it.

| <<< Note 342.29 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>


| Quayle was given a flash card with the word misspelled on it.

	And he couldn't figure out it was spelt wrong on his own?

RE         <<< Note 342.23 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>I think the point is that the programmer who gets it right the first time due
>to better spelling abilities does so in about the same amount of time as the
>poorer speller, and SAVES the extra four compiles. 

  First of all, this is penny wise and pound indifferent. When you consider
the total amount of time spent developing a complex software project including
gathering requirements, design, coding, debugging, testing, the amount of time
spent spelling reserved words in a computer language is minuscule.

  Second, very few of syntax errors when compiling C programs come from not
spelling English words correctly. Even a poor speller can learn the relatively
few C reserved words that are most commonly used such as "struct" and "printf".

  Thirdly, it is often the case when coding things that are unfamiliar that you
open a window on your buffer and "borrow" a program that has a similar syntax
structure. You cut and paste to get the general syntax including spelling then
modify to make it do what you want it to do. 

  After programming for a quarter of a century and teaching programming at B.U.
for over 10 years I'm convinced that spelling is not a talent that impacts
the ability to program at all. It's never been a problem that's slowed me up
and I've never known it to slow up others who can't spell.

  George

Then why the hell did you bring up the point that you'd rather have an
engineer who has to recomplie four times due to spelling errors, not
to mention raising the fictitious argument about spending ten times
the effort to get it right the first time?

You haven't been at this game any longer than I have George, but at
least I put some effort into my spelling. I can't claim the B.U.
teaching experience, as I lack the degree, but stop trying to claim
that you have a unique perspective on this matter.

RE    <<< Note 342.25 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>	I dare say no-one in this file would be silly enough to 
>	say that bad speller = bad programmer, but good speller
>	_might_ = exacting thinker.  And exacting thinker _might_ =
>	good programmer.  Why is this such a difficult concept?

  Did you see "Rain Man" with Duston Hoffman? Have you ever met anyone who was
as good with details as his character? 

  I've seen real autistic individuals on programs like 60 minutes that had
those types of abilities with details. They have every stat of every ball
player on the tip of their tongues but if you turned them lose 100 feet from the
ticket office at Fenway Park they would never in a million years figure out how
to buy a ticket and find their seat. 

  Most likely you could find an autistic individual who could tell you not
only how to spell any word correctly but he could probably tell you what page
it was on in his dictionary. Do you really think such an individual would make
a good programmer because he knows how words are spelled?

  George

RE         <<< Note 342.32 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>You haven't been at this game any longer than I have George, but at
>least I put some effort into my spelling. I can't claim the B.U.
>teaching experience, as I lack the degree, but stop trying to claim
>that you have a unique perspective on this matter.

  I'm not saying my perspective is unique. All I'm saying is that in all the
time I've been programming I've never come across a case where a project was
delayed because someone's spelling was not up to par.

  George

RE      <<< Note 342.27 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>

>    	I don't believe it matters so much in a forum like SOAPBOX,
>    	however.  This is such an informal arena.  I think the current
>    	spelling pickiness fad that seems to have replaced snarfing is
>    	a bit tedious and distracting.  Still it *is* educating!
    
  Here's where I have to disagree. As I've said before, 95% of the flack I've
gotten about my spelling since leaving highschool has come from SOAPBOX. It
was never a problem in college or graduate school, it was never a problem
throughout my programming career, it was never a problem while teaching
programming courses at the college level.

  However in SOAPBOX I've gotten more criticism about spelling than in all
of those endeavors combined.

  George

    From what I've seen, good spelling indicates that someone reads a fair
    bit.  When we read, we're doing pattern matching, not processing words
    phonetically.  Someone who reads a lot is more familiar with the
    correct patterns.
    
    This tells us why spelling is important -- if you get it wrong, it
    throws off the pattern matcher and disturbs the reader.
    
    If you accept spelling as a by-product of reading, then good spellers
    are more likely to have good skills in written communication --
    something many employers say they look for.  They are also likely to
    have good skills in verbal communication, simply from having a greater
    exposure to language.

               <<< Note 342.30 by BIGQ::SILVA "Squirrels R Me" >>>

>| Quayle was given a flash card with the word misspelled on it.
    >
>	And he couldn't figure out it was spelt wrong on his own?

    
    	Potato is "one of those words" -- primarily because the 
    	plural is potatoes.  We all know that Quayle had (has) a 
    	problem with the pressure of public spotlight, so it would
    	not be unreasonable to rely on the flashcard he was given
    	(by the teacher, no less) when uncertainty set in.
    
    	Sure, he should have been able to figure it out.  But while
    	we are saying here that spelling is important, I think
    	it is overkill to use this incident to define a man's political 
    	career.
    
    	And you, Glen, are one of the last people who should be harping
    	about someone's spelling abilities.

    	re .35
    
    	You don't have to disagree with me.  I'm on your side -- with
    	regard to spelling in SOAPBOX anyway.

  Ok, I see what you mean,

  George

    I agree with Lady Di. Good spelling is an asset. Bad spelling can be a
    liability.

RE:             <<< Note 342.30 by BIGQ::SILVA "Squirrels R Me" >>>



>| Quayle was given a flash card with the word misspelled on it.

>	And he couldn't figure out it was spelt wrong on his own?



    Ha ha ha ha ha :-)

    
    
    
    
    Well, it ain't your spelling George, it's your ideology........

    
    I overall agree with Chelsea, but there are exceptions. I for one, love
    to read, but I certainly am not the worlds greatest speller. As it has
    been pointed out to me numerous times in Soapbox.
    
    Mark

>>  Most likely you could find an autistic individual who could tell you not
>>only how to spell any word correctly but he could probably tell you what page
>>it was on in his dictionary. Do you really think such an individual would make
>>a good programmer because he knows how words are spelled?

  George, have you not noticed that I've been saying _can_ be an indicator
  and _might_ be an indicator...?   I'm just using programming as an example
  of one arena where an attention to detail can make a difference.  I have
  known brilliant programmers who couldn't spell.  I have also known programmers
  whose inability to spell, punctuate, form complete sentences, etc. has
  been precisely in keeping with their careless coding techniques.  I have
  seen errors in code written by these people that could _not_ have been
  detected by any kind of compiler.  Having seen this correlation in action,
  I am at times less confident when entrusting work to someone whom I know
  to be generally inattentive when it comes to syntactical matters.

  Again, I am _not_ saying "bad speller = bad programmer", nor am I saying
  "good speller = good programmer".  That would be absolutely absurd.

  But getting back to the more general, do you think that there are _no_
  situations where a first impression can make all the difference?  

RE    <<< Note 342.44 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>  George, have you not noticed that I've been saying _can_ be an indicator
>  and _might_ be an indicator...?   I'm just using programming as an example
>  of one arena where an attention to detail can make a difference.  I have
>  known brilliant programmers who couldn't spell.  I have also known programmers
>  whose inability to spell, punctuate, form complete sentences, etc. has
>  been precisely in keeping with their careless coding techniques.  

  Yes but you can say that about anything. For example I could say that people
with thick eyebrows can't write computer programs. Then I could say:

    "I have known brilliant programmers who have thick eyebrows. I have also
     known programmers whose thick eyebrows has been precisely in keeping with
     their careless coding techniques."

>  But getting back to the more general, do you think that there are _no_
>  situations where a first impression can make all the difference?  

  Of course there are. First impressions are often important to a certain group
of people. There are far too many who form negative 1st impressions when they
see black skin, slanted eyes, a name like Steinburg or any number of attributes
totally unrelated to the job for which they are hiring. 

  That's a sad reality. I even heard of one case where someone was denied a job
because during the interview lunch the individual salted their food before
tasting it. That doesn't mean that these things have any bearing on reality. 


  George 

    George,
    
    How are thick eyebrows analogous with being well written?  Whether
    you choose to believe or put any faith in the notion that spelling
    is important, it is still a demonstrable skill.   

    To me, the kind of spelling mistake which is troubling is something
    like this: "Their is no way ...". It's hard to see this kind of error
    as being on a par with a typo, a keyboard snafu, or the odd bit of 
    dyslexia. 
    
    

RE            <<< Note 342.47 by POWDML::CKELLY "Cute Li'l Rascal" >>>

>    How are thick eyebrows analogous with being well written?  Whether
>    you choose to believe or put any faith in the notion that spelling
>    is important, it is still a demonstrable skill.   

  Good point. Then how about if I said

    "I have known brilliant programmers who can not place their foot behind
     their head. I have also known programmers whose inability to place their
     foot behind their head has been precisely in keeping with their careless
     coding techniques." 

  George

	George, as 'tine lady is pointing out, eyebrows and coding aren't
	related.  Spelling and coding both involve language and syntax.

    Well, I guess now we need to find the difference between demonstrable
    skills and stupid human tricks :-).  FWIW, I still don't find the two
    analogous.  As Lady Di further pointed out, the spelling and coding
    both involve language and syntax.  

>>First impressions are often important to a certain group
>>of people.

  No, no, no, George, I'm not talking about bigots, people who stereotype
  others, and that lot.  And not that kind of "first impression".
  If you're looking through the yellow pages for a mechanic (which is 
  a stupid thing to do, granted, but anyways...) and you start calling
  places arbitrarily, and you're greeted by an obnoxious answering machine,
  or a rude person on the other end of the phone, that tells you nothing
  about how good a mechanic you'll find at the place, but it might turn
  you off to doing business with them.

  Likewise, if you have a stack of 50 cover letters or any other
  kind of written material to make your way through, you might be put off
  by someone who doesn't even care enough to make a good first impression
  via the only medium at their disposal.
  

 I frequently have an opportunity to look at resumes, and those which contain
 spelling and or punctuation errors are usually the first to get tossed.




 Jim

    
    In a business situation, spelling and grammatical errors are a poor
    reflection upon both the individual AND the company.
    
    Unprofessional.  So there.
    
    :-Q
    

RE    <<< Note 342.52 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>  No, no, no, George, I'm not talking about bigots, people who stereotype
>  others, and that lot.  And not that kind of "first impression".

  To me, bigotry is categorizing people and discriminating against them on the
basis of things that are not important. If you deny someone a job coding
because they spelled a word wrong on their resume that makes as little sense as
denying them the job because of race, religion, eyebrows, physical flexibility,
or golf handicap.

  The inability to spell doesn't mean that you don't understand language or
syntax, all it means is that you don't have a memory for obscure details. And
while getting details is important to programming, it's only one small aspect
and it's the type of mistake that the computer has the best chance of catching
while the human is doing something more important.

  Given a choice between someone who can code a line and get it right the 1st
time versus someone who can look at a problem and conceive of a well structured
design, I'll take the 2nd any day. Once you have a good design you can always
hack the code together and correct syntax errors but perfectly written 1st
time code to implement a bad design will be nothing but problems.

>  ... or a rude person on the other end of the phone, that tells you nothing
>  about how good a mechanic you'll find at the place, but it might turn
>  you off to doing business with them.

  In this case you are talking about someone who is deliberately being hostile.
That's another case entirely.

>  Likewise, if you have a stack of 50 cover letters or any other
>  kind of written material to make your way through, you might be put off
>  by someone who doesn't even care enough to make a good first impression
>  via the only medium at their disposal.
  
  That would suggest to me that they are not hung up on 1st impressions and
are not likely to be to judge someone on something meaningless like spelling.
I would have no problem talking to that person because that would tell me
nothing about what they were really like.

  George

| <<< Note 342.37 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?" >>>

| We all know that Quayle had (has) a problem with the pressure of public 
| spotlight, 

	Yeah Joe, those kids there were so much pressure on the guy. I don't
know how he escaped there without a breakdown..... scaaaaaaarrryyyy stuff them
kids....

| so it would not be unreasonable to rely on the flashcard he was given (by the 
| teacher, no less) when uncertainty set in.

	Yeah, you know exactly how he was reacting Joe. Nice try.

| I think it is overkill to use this incident to define a man's political career

	Well, when we start doing that Joe, you'll have a point. But once again
you have given this the Joe Oppelt balloon test. Blow it up as big as possible,
and everytime it pops in your face. You'd think you would have caught on by now.

| And you, Glen, are one of the last people who should be harping about someone's 
| spelling abilities.

	Eye dun't no wot u meen....


Glen

| <<< Note 342.43 by POBOX::BATTIS "Contract Studmuffin" >>>


| but I certainly am not the worlds greatest speller. As it has been pointed out
| to me numerous times in Soapbox.

	Mark, are you really Brian Markey? Wow.... learn something new
everyday... :-)

    .55
    
    so, faced with umpteen job applicants for a programming post, how do
    you set about sorting them out ?
    
    in an ideal world i suppose you could give every one of them a trial
    period to see how good they really are. but you can't.
    
    spelling and presentation is an obvious filter.
    
    ric

>>  In this case you are talking about someone who is deliberately being hostile.
>>That's another case entirely.

	No, it's not another case entirely - it's still a first impression.
	They might not think they're being hostile, but it might come across
	like that to you.  In any case, if you have umpteen people to
	choose from, why would you pick someone with whom your initial
	contact was not a pleasant experience?  First impressions can make
	a difference.
  
>>  That would suggest to me that they are not hung up on 1st impressions and
>>are not likely to be to judge someone on something meaningless like spelling.

	But in the next sentence, you said that it would tell you nothing about
	what the person was like.  Can't have it both ways, George.

	I don't think it tells you _much_ about the person either, but
	when you're presented with loads of talented people to choose from,
	you don't have time to personally interview all of them, and all you
	have to go on is a piece of paper, the person who can write well is
	a leg up.

RE                      <<< Note 342.58 by RDGE44::ALEUC8 >>>

>    so, faced with umpteen job applicants for a programming post, how do
>    you set about sorting them out ?

  I'd look for education and experience.

  I'd look for computer languages used and types of systems written. For
example if someone had 7 years of programming all in COBOL working on payroll
systems, that would be good if I were looking for a business application
programmer but not good for someone to write the scheduler for my new operating
system. 
    
  If I had a large number of resumes relative to the number of jobs I'd look
for close matches and try to hire someone who had done the type of system or
something that looks like it's the stepping stone just before that type of
system.

  Under no circumstances would I filter out a resume because of a few spelling
errors. In fact, I probably wouldn't even notice them since I don't spell
all that well myself.

  George

    .60
    
    yeah yeah i'm sorry i didn't explicitly state all that in my original
    
    what i really meant was assuming all that and you've still got loads of
    people with relevant experience and qualifications etc (which often
    happens as i'm sure you know) spelling and presentation is an obvious
    filter
    
    ric 

    Glen: {slap}. 'nuff said. :-)

    As for the spelling... it's a matter of priority. When I'm wearing
    my ISO editor hat, I'm very meticulous about spelling and grammar.
    I spent four or five hours writing an article for IEEE Multimedia
    magazine recently; I probably spent twice as long pouring over it
    and tweaking the grammar. All my business correspondence gets run
    through a spell checker and a grammar checker, then my secretary
    takes a whack at it (and she's quite persnickety).

    When my company did the "Facts About Germany" CD-ROM, we were
    extremely anal about language because we had to convey a lot of
    information in as few words as possible (due to screen real-estate
    considerations). Sometimes, we had to use creative synonyms because
    the word we wanted to use made for an unnatural line break.

    However, when I'm noting... not a priority, sorry. I generally read
    and/or write between builds or to take a break from an editing
    session. But my concentration is focused on what I'm working on,
    not what I'm writing here.

    In fact, it's pretty much the opposite phenomenon to what Lady
    Di describes: my lack of attention to detail here is because I'm
    attending to the details of the software I'm coding, or the
    document I'm writing, and not paying much attention to what I'm
    typing (and -- sorry to admit it -- often what I'm reading).

    So for me, written and verbal communication skills are extremely
    important in some endeavors, and of little importance in others.

    -b

>>    ...written and verbal communication skills are extremely
>>    important in some endeavors, and of little importance in others.

	Clearly.  The question posed in this note is whether spelling
	matters.  George's stance seems to be that it never does.  But 
	it in fact does.
 

    .55
    
    > If you deny someone a job coding
    > because they spelled a word wrong on their resume...
    
    ...you are deciding, with reason, that that person can't be troubled to
    make sure that his or her first contact with you is as advantageous as
    possible.  Given that apparent lack of concern, I would find (and have
    indeed found) myself ready to decide that such a person is likely to be
    similarly uncaring about his or her work, and I'd drop the resume into
    the bin without further consideration.
    
    Spelling is, as several others here are saying, a filter.  That you
    refuse to acknowledge the value of good spelling in certain situations,
    George, suggests to me that you are simply unable to perceive it.  And
    that apparent inability would lead me to reject you pretty quickly as
    an applicant for any job opening I might have.  I wouldn't even care
    that you were a really good programmer - there are others out there who
    are just as good, and some of them care enough to do things right when
    it counts.

    Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't.
    
    Applying for a job, I'd suspect that a college educated poor speller
    would at least get an interview and my application would end up in file
    thirteen, regardless of skill level or spelling ability.  It's happened
    many times.  Too bad for the company.
    
    In the world of consulting, poor spelling in a letter of introduction
    will send it straight to the garbage can before the reader even
    finishes the sentence.  Same goes for poor grammar.
    
    In both cases, a conscious or unconscious filter is applied to the
    written material at hand, be it resume or letter.  Like it or not,
    that's the way it is.  I did very well consulting, and had nothing but
    frustration trying to get a interview for a job, despite over a hundred
    recommendations from satisfied corporate clients.  George might have
    problems free-lance consulting, but seems to be doing okay with what
    he's doing now.
    
    C'est la vie.

Someone I know was trying to get a job as a copy editor.  One of the potential
employers he sent his resume was kind enough to point out some spelling errors.

RE                      <<< Note 342.61 by RDGE44::ALEUC8 >>>

>    what i really meant was assuming all that and you've still got loads of
>    people with relevant experience and qualifications etc (which often
>    happens as i'm sure you know) spelling and presentation is an obvious
>    filter
    
  No, I'd use something else. If I still had tons of resumes I'd filter
more closely on the types of systems the people had developed and the role
of the people within those projects.

  I might also look at the list of references to see what a person had. Those
who were recommended by VPs of Software or consulting engineers would have
preference over someone who's recommendations were all other programmers (i.e.
their friends). 

  Under no circumstances would I throw a resume out due to a few spelling
errors. If I was tempted to do that I'd go back and look for something that
was meaningful.

  George

   Ok then...
   
   You have one job opening, and you're now down to two resumes.

   Both have evrything you're looking for.

   One resume has one or more spelling errors.

   Who gets the job?

    
    I'm sure you all know what my position is on spelling 8^).
    
    I'm with the Muppet Man from quite a few notes back.  I've advertised
    jobs before and gotten stacks of resumes.  Hundreds.  Why should I
    waste my time reading one that's full of errors, copied multiple times
    and therefore crooked and illegible, bla bla bla?  I expect a certain
    level of presentability in something that important, heck, I expect a
    certain level of presentability in everything, and that's my
    prerogative.  I'm not the sort of woman who goes to the grocery store
    in curlers.

	.68  George would probably flip a coin out of spite, rather
	     than use spelling as a final arbiter.  ;>
	     He just doesn't get it.

    My Dad,who worked as a pressure vessel designer and catalytic cracker
    engineer (huh?) for Foster Wheeler said that if any job application
    which had a spelling mistake on it was automatically thrown into the
    bin. Not given even a consideration,however well qualified or
    experienced.
    
    The reasoning being that if you can`t even be bothered to make sure 
    your CV is correct,then it shows a sloppy attitude. Not much good
    when you`re working on a multi million pound chemical plant or what
    not. 
    
    So if you want to apply for a job at Foster Wheeler,make sure you can
    spell.
     
    

RE                      <<< Note 342.68 by WONDER::BOISSE >>>

>   Ok then...
>   You have one job opening, and you're now down to two resumes.
>   Both have evrything you're looking for.
>   One resume has one or more spelling errors.
>   Who gets the job?

  I call them both in and call the references on both. Then I decide. Spelling
still means nothing for a programming job.

  By the way, you spelled "everything" wrong but that's ok, I still judge
your response on content.

  George

    Of course, there's a difference between misspelling in the box and
    misspelling in your CV.

	>>Spelling
        >>still means nothing for a programming job.

	This is simply not true.  It _can_ mean something.  Whether
	you like it or not.

RE    <<< Note 342.70 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>	.68  George would probably flip a coin out of spite, rather
>	     than use spelling as a final arbiter.  ;>
>	     He just doesn't get it.

  No, I'd use other things because 25 years of programming and 10 years
teaching at B.U. has taught me that spelling means nothing when evaluating
programmers.

  It is you that don't seem to get that point.

  But let's hear the other side of the coin. Has anyone had specific problems
with programmers due to their spelling? With all the programming that goes
on in this company there must be tons of war stories of how someone's lack
of spelling ability had brought a project to it's knees.

  George

>>  It is you that don't seem to get that point.

	I've seen evidence to the contrary, George, so "that point" 
	is an invalid one.

    Sending in your resume with errors is like showing up for the interview
    with your tie untied or your shirt untucked.

RE    <<< Note 342.76 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>>>  It is you that don't seem to get that point.
>
>	I've seen evidence to the contrary, George, so "that point" 
>	is an invalid one.

  What evidence? Can you give me an example of a programming project that
was delayed a significant amount of time because a programmer had problems
with spelling?

  I can't imagine how that would happen? I'm curious, did someone stare at

    strict {
      int a;
      ent b;
      }

for days not understanding what was wrong?

  Exactly what happened?

  George

>>  What evidence? Can you give me an example of a programming project that
>>was delayed a significant amount of time because a programmer had problems
>>with spelling?

	I could give you an example of source code that was written by
	someone who had the same careless and inexacting approach to
	writing Fortran as they had to writing English.  Source code that
	would have compiled cleanly, but would not have worked under
	various circumstances because the person wrote code the same way
	they wrote sentences - with no eye whatsoever for detail.  They
	never checked their English and they checked their code only up
	to a certain point.  Both are languages, both are dependent upon
	syntax and format, and you will never convince me that there is no
	relation between them.

RE    <<< Note 342.79 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>They
>	never checked their English and they checked their code only up
>	to a certain point.  Both are languages, both are dependent upon
>	syntax and format, and you will never convince me that there is no
>	relation between them.

  This once again looks like an example of someone counting umbrellas, seeing
rain, then concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. How do you know that the
same thing that causes the inability to spell causes the inability to program?

  It would seem that the fact that there are so many people who are good coders
but poor spellers and still more who are good spellers but poor coders would
be evidence that there is not a casual relationship between the two and in
fact even the correlation is at best weak.

  George 

>>How do you know that the same thing that causes the inability
>>to spell causes the inability to program?

	I'm wicked smart, that's how.  ;>  

	George, it's hopeless.  You'll just continue to discount 
	any anecdotal evidence as imagined, so it's pointless to
	argue with you.  

	It's just common sense that spelling can matter, even if, as
	you seem to want to believe, it shouldn't.
  

    Could have been `casual', but it doesn't make much sense that way.

  re: 342.72  HELIX::MAIEWSKI

 >> By the way, you spelled "everything" wrong but that's ok, I still judge
 >> your response on content.

  I through that in their on porpoise...

  I didn't want you're stinkin' job anyhows...

    Well, since George has chosen not to respond to my .77, we're left with
    two possibilities:
    
    1.  George sees nothing wrong with showing up for an interview with
    your tied untied or your shirt untucked.
    
    2.  George does see something wrong with showing up for an interview
    with your tie untied or your shirt untucked, realizes that spelling
    does count in at least some circumstances, but refuses to backtrack
    from his stated position.
    
    Well, there's always possibility #3 (George overlooked my note), but I
    prefer to think no one could overlook me....
        

      <<< Note 342.69 by POWDML::LAUER "Little Chamber of Fuzzy Faces" >>>

    
>    I'm sure you all know what my position is on spelling 8^).
    
er...um...would that be lying down? 

I think two concepts are getting mixed up here: being a bad speller and 
presenting something with spelling mistakes. I agree with George, it's not 
important that one is a good speller. (I better think that, 'cause I'm one 
of the worst :'/) It's not even important if writing is your profession. (I 
better think that, too!) We've always had tools to offset our failings -- 
and downright nifty ones these days. But you'd have to be a fool to think 
spelling is unimportant in communication -- particularly if your livelyhood 
is on the line, as is the case in the resume/cover letter.

I'm an awful speller, and I don't feel a moments guilt about it, but I'm 
VERY careful about spelling with any formal communication ('box not being 
one of them, o'course :)).

Tom

Di, Deb, et.al.:

OK, you get a beautiful looking resume, every word spelled correctly.
How do you know the applicant can spell his way out of a paper bag?

                     <<< Note 342.80 by HELIX::MAIEWSKI >>>

>  This once again looks like an example of someone counting umbrellas, seeing
>rain, then concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. 
    
    	Only people with thick eyebrows *and* who can put their foot 
    	behind their heads *AND* can't code, would make that conclusion.
    
    	Only a person who can't spell would see the rain only AFTER he 
    	put up his umbrella.
    
    	:^)

>>OK, you get a beautiful looking resume, every word spelled correctly.
>>How do you know the applicant can spell his way out of a paper bag?

	You don't.  You know he at least cares about it though.
	That matters.

   <<< Note 342.87 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

>Di, Deb, et.al.:
>
>OK, you get a beautiful looking resume, every word spelled correctly.
>How do you know the applicant can spell his way out of a paper bag?

  This is an excellent point.

  So for those of you who think spelling is important, do you give each
applicant a spelling test on their interview? After all, you have no way
of knowing that they CAN spell just from looking at their resume. It may
have been corrected by a friend or a spell checker.

  George

    If I won a spelling bee in grade school, should I include that on my
    resume?
    
    "Rathole. R-A-T-H-O-L-E. Rathole."

    .90
    
    
    See .89.
    
    I am reminded of the old saw, "There is none so blind as he who will
    not see."  Clearly, George, you are simply unwilling to see the light
    that others find blindingly clear.

>>knowing that they CAN spell just from looking at their resume. It may
>>have been corrected by a friend or a spell checker.

  George, I'm sorry but you're just not paying attention.  If somebody
  had a friend or a spell checker correct their cover letter, that
  would be fine.  The cover letter's accuracy would indicate that either
  they had innate abilities in that area or they at least had an innate
  concern with making a good first impression and doing things correctly.  
  Positive things, no?

I think everybody agrees that spelling matters on resumes and other formal
communications.  Spelling ability is probably a good measure of success in
certain careers (e.g., proofreader).  But does it matter in other pursuits?
Should it?

    Think of the idea of tossing a poorly written resume as an evolutionary
    event in the great career food chain.  
    

>>I think everybody agrees that spelling matters on resumes and other formal
>>communications.  

	George doesn't.

  Recently I noticed several ads on the community bulletin board channel
  on my cable system where there were misspellings.  To me, it is sad that
  misspelling has become widespread and that there seems to be little concern
  over it.  I'd even go so far as to say I'd not patronize an establishment that
  advertised for my business and couldn't spell correctly.




 Jim

>           I'd even go so far as to say I'd not patronize an establishment that
> advertised for my business and couldn't spell correctly.

So if all your friends raved about a restaurant, and there was a misspelling
in their advertising, you'd go elsewhere?

>>           I'd even go so far as to say I'd not patronize an establishment that
>> advertised for my business and couldn't spell correctly.

>So if all your friends raved about a restaurant, and there was a misspelling
>in their advertising, you'd go elsewhere?


 Possibly...I'd certainly question their dedication to quality if they can't
 spell correctly.  Then again, perhaps someone else wrote the copy.



 Jim

 I snarf checked

    I don't care if the chef can spell. Can he cook?

    
    In fact, if he can't spell haggis, it's a plus.
    
      bb

RE    <<< Note 342.93 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>  George, I'm sorry but you're just not paying attention.  If somebody
>  had a friend or a spell checker correct their cover letter, that
>  would be fine.  The cover letter's accuracy would indicate that either
>  they had innate abilities in that area ... 

  No not necessarily. People normally get all sorts of coaching when preparing
a resume that they are not likely to get during their day to day work on the
job. They also get all sorts of pressure to make their resume look neat that
they do not get when the people nagging them to fix their resume are not
around. 

  If it is important that the person have the ability to write a neat resume on
their own without being aided or prodded, then the resume alone tells you
nothing. Hire the head hunter that sent you this guy, you are more likely to
end up with the person responsible for actually preparing the resume. 

>or they at least had an innate
>  concern with making a good first impression and doing things correctly.  
>  Positive things, no?

  Ok now this really has me puzzled. What possible advantage would you have
when hiring programmers if you hire someone obsessed with 1st impressions?
So what if this tells you the applicant has an innate concern with making
a good 1st impression? That's a circular argument. You are saying that 1st
impressions are important because they show you that the person appreciates
1st impressions. Big deal, give me someone who can design software.

  George

.102   aaagagagagaggis

.103  see what i mean, gerald? ;>

  Here's some food for thought. Every word in the English language is the
misspelling of a word in another language.

  George

OK, everybody but George.

| <<< Note 342.62 by MPGS::MARKEY "Specialists in Horizontal Decorum" >>>


| Glen: {slap}. 'nuff said. :-)

	WRONG! You forgot the (tm) thang.

George,

    Is it really this difficult for you to comprehend that what people have
   been saying is -

 	It's important to present a good first impression simply to show
	that you care enough to do so.

    ???

    Care in spelling and grammar (and neatness, and clarity, etc.) on a
   cover letter and resum� is a means of doing so. How can you continue
   to discount it as trivial and immaterial?

    .103
    
    George, it must be nice to live on a planet where everything you think
    is ipso facto right.  Maybe you could send us some vacation brochures.

  Well me to an extent. I agree that it is important to spell correctly when
writing a resume but only because there are so many spelling bigots reading
them.

  George

    Rong Goerge, there are werds in teh inglesh langwidge that are spelld
    corecktly in more than won langwidge i betcha. 

    
    Well, perhaps this is the point George is trying to make, albeit
    obtusely.  I personally don't care whether a person has some sort 
    of innate ability to spell correctly, uses a dictionary, or has a 
    friend or spell-checker review his or her work.  I just expect that a
    person will not present me with a document containing a myriad of
    spelling errors.  It shows carelessness.  My opinion only, of course.

    .107
    
    Wrong.  The word "sky" is an accurate rendering of the Old Norse "sky,"
    which latter means "cloud."

RE        <<< Note 342.110 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>    Is it really this difficult for you to comprehend that what people have
>   been saying is -

  Once again we have the oh so tiresome SOAPBOX tactic where by one side
decides "we are right, those against us are wrong, if they don't agree it's
because they don't understand".

> 	It's important to present a good first impression simply to show
>	that you care enough to do so.

  Ok so if I use the neat resume to select someone who's obsessed with 1st
impressions over someone who could give a rip about 1st impressions, how do
I know the 1st person is a better programmer than the 2nd person?

>    Care in spelling and grammar (and neatness, and clarity, etc.) on a
>   cover letter and resum� is a means of doing so. How can you continue
>   to discount it as trivial and immaterial?

  I am not discounting the fact that a good resume means that either the
applicant, their head hunter, spouse, or friend is obsessed with 1st
impressions. All I'm saying is that knowing that fact does not tell me that
this person is a better programmer than someone else.

  George

| <<< Note 342.115 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>


| Wrong.  The word "sky" is an accurate rendering of the Old Norse "sky,"
| which latter means "cloud."


	Dick, please don't cloud the issues.....:-)

RE              <<< Note 342.111 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

>    .103
>    
>    George, it must be nice to live on a planet where everything you think
>    is ipso facto right.  Maybe you could send us some vacation brochures.

  Now here's the Pot & Kettle award for the day. You and those arguing with you
keep saying over and over that I obviously don't understand because I don't
agree with you, then you call me for saying I am right.

  Hypocrisy at it's lowest,
  George

    Glen, be cirrus for once.

    
    yes you nimbus nimrod

>>      <<< Note 342.114 by POWDML::LAUER "Little Chamber of Fuzzy Faces" >>>
>>                                    -< .93 >-
>>    Well, perhaps this is the point George is trying to make, albeit
>>    obtusely.

  It wouldn't appear so, Debster, my dear.  Now George seems to be saying
  that all we can conclude from a well-written resume is that the 
  candidate is obsessed with first impressions.  Preposterous, of course,
  but...

        I don't think George is saying that.  Rather it seems to me that all you
    self-appointed spellcheckers are obsessed with first impressions.
    
    --Doug C.

RE   <<< Note 342.121 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>  It wouldn't appear so, Debster, my dear.  Now George seems to be saying
>  that all we can conclude from a well-written resume is that the 
>  candidate is obsessed with first impressions.  Preposterous, of course,
>  but...

  Now there's a well thought out and logical argument. Never mind debating,
simply call your opponent's idea preposterous. 

  You are still ducking my question. Notice that the title to this note has
to do with spelling, not resumes.

  If the ability to spell is important, then do you or do you not give a
spelling test to potential employees on their interview?

  If not, then how do you know if they can spell?

  George

    .118
    
    > You and those arguing with you
    > keep saying over and over that I obviously don't understand because I
    > don't
    > agree with you, then you call me for saying I am right.
    
    Actually, it should be apparent to you thta even those who started out
    arguing your side have abandoned you as they observed that there was
    indeed validity to the opposing argument.  That you alone remain
    committed to the "it doesn't matter at all nohow" position should tell
    you something.  That it doesnt, tells US something.

    <--- Ha!

    >>Rather it seems to me that all you
    >>self-appointed spellcheckers are obsessed with first impressions.

	Well, how very crass of you.  How stunningly, bubblingly, 
	frothingly crass.  ;>

	I'll bet you're a great judge of character though.  Yessirreebob.  ;>

RE              <<< Note 342.124 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

>    Actually, it should be apparent to you thta even those who started out
>    arguing your side have abandoned you as they observed that there was
>    indeed validity to the opposing argument.  That you alone remain
>    committed to the "it doesn't matter at all nohow" position should tell
>    you something.  That it doesnt, tells US something.

  Boy now there's an intelligent argument regarding the impact of spelling
ability on programming.

  Summed it right up,

  By the way, to use your own line of reasoning, clearly you are wrong and I
am right because you spelled the word "that", "thta".

  George

>  If the ability to spell is important, then do you or do you not give a
>spelling test to potential employees on their interview?
>  If not, then how do you know if they can spell?

This is, as usual, tedious.

It is NOT the ability to spell that is important. It is NOT an obsession
with first impressions that consumes those who notice, and formulate
initial opinions based upon, the appearance (including, but not limited
to, spelling) of early media of contact and introduction.

What matters is the message conveyed by the appearance, as well as the
content, of that media. If it is sloppy, it indicates that someone had
insufficient concern to present themselves well. If it is neat, it
indicates that the party had sufficient interest in seeing to it that
the communications were pursued further, to take the trouble to attempt
to affect that result.

    Re: .127
    
    He did not misspell; he mistyped.  There is no way anyone could
    construe "thta" as a proper spelling for "that."  It's not even
    _remotely_ phonetic.

>>Notice that the title to this note has
>>to do with spelling, not resumes.

	The title asks if spelling matters.  It does not ask if 
	the ability to spell matters.  In some instances, spelling
	matters (e.g. resumes and other formal documents).
	In some instances, the ability to spell matters (e.g. proofreader).

>>  If the ability to spell is important, then do you or do you not give a
>>spelling test to potential employees on their interview?

	I would not give a spelling test on an interview.  I would
	rely on the material presented to me, and if the ability to
	spell were tied to the job, then those materials should indicate
	the level of proficiency the person has in that area.

    RE: other vocations, 
    
    You wouldn't want to have the launh codes for nuclear missles
    misspelled would you?  

RE        <<< Note 342.128 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>It is NOT the ability to spell that is important. 

  Woops, you'd better get your stories synchronized, especially if you are
going to continue using the argument that since I am alone I am wrong. This
started because Di and others argued that the ability to spell is important
when it comes to programming. In theory the worse you spell, the longer it
will take to write programs because of all the extra compiles it takes to
catch the instances where you said "strict" instead of "struct".

>What matters is the message conveyed by the appearance, as well as the
>content, of that media. If it is sloppy, it indicates that someone had
>insufficient concern to present themselves well. 

  So what if they are not being hired for how they present themselves but
rather how they design software?

>If it is neat, it
>indicates that the party had sufficient interest in seeing to it that
>the communications were pursued further, to take the trouble to attempt
>to affect that result.

  Or the parties head hunter or spouse had sufficient interest ...

  George

RE           <<< Note 342.131 by CONSLT::MCBRIDE "aspiring peasant" >>>

>    RE: other vocations, 
>    
>    You wouldn't want to have the launh codes for nuclear missles
>    misspelled would you?  

  John Kennedy couldn't spell and he never launched a missles at the wrong time.

  George

    I forgot the smiley.  Somehow the idea that someone would misspell 
    
    ICBM-BOOM 
    
    Seemed kind of funny to me in my own little way.  :-)

>>because Di and others argued that the ability to spell is important
>>when it comes to programming.

	Look, George, if you're going to keep misinterpreting me, I won't
	play. ;>  I said _several_ times that it _can_ be an indicator
	of abilities in the area of programming, but you continue
	to ignore that qualification.
 

    
>>    Seemed kind of funny to me in my own little way.  :-)

	That's because it _was_ funny, as was "and his son Skippy". ;>

RE   <<< Note 342.135 by PENUTS::DDESMAISONS "no, i'm aluminuming 'um, mum" >>>

>	Look, George, if you're going to keep misinterpreting me, I won't
>	play. ;>  I said _several_ times that it _can_ be an indicator
>	of abilities in the area of programming, but you continue
>	to ignore that qualification.
 
  Oh ok, I'll go along with that. Speaking in broad terms, excessive ass
scratching _can_ be an indicator of abilities in the area of programming. 
I suppose that if someone's right hand were always busy, they'd have to reach
across with the left index finger when typing in the word "struct".

  George

    
    
    RE: .136
    
    
    Agreed. :*)
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

    Re: .132
    
    >So what if they are not being hired for how they present themselves
    >but rather how they design software?
    
    Most employers don't just look for good designers (or coders, or
    whatever).  They look for good employees.  Someone who doesn't care
    about how they present themselves is saying, "I don't care what you
    think of me."  Frankly, I would want my employees to care what I
    thought about them.  Otherwise, they're saying that the opinion of the
    person who decides their salary is irrelevant, and I can't imagine
    hiring someone so detached from the reality of business.

    
    Spelling mistakes annoy me.  Plain and simple.  I attended a technical
    university where command of the English language was tenuous at best. 
    I have read untold papers where the main point was completely obscured
    by lack of proper sentence structure.
    
    I never had stellar verbal scores on my SAT's or GRE's, yet I managed
    to learn the difference between there and their, and your and you're,
    and that you're "between" two things and "among" three, and that "to"
    is generally not the best way to end a sentence.  I also know that in
    Strunk and White grammar, the above sentence should probably be broken
    into three parts for the sake of brevity.
    
    I enjoy reading well written papers and stories.  Alarms go off in my
    head for misspellings and malapropisms.  So although you may have a
    myriad of technical talents, if you've got "its" instead of "it's", or 
    "fowards", or "Decleration of Indepandence" you're going to come across
    to me as an idiot.
    
    Lisa

>  So what if they are not being hired for how they present themselves but
>rather how they design software?

If they present themselves not only poorly, but downright slobby, I wouldn't
necessarily care how they designed software. There are more than enough
excellent software designers who take the trouble to present themselves
well. Why should I waste my time on some slovenly creep? I'd be fully
justified in questioning what areas of their work might suffer from the
same lack of attention that they'd already exhibited.

> Or the parties head hunter or spouse had sufficient interest ...

In the end it makes little difference who did the cleanup, George. The
point is that the party in question agreed to it and most likely was
in favor of the improvements. That's what is important. Obviously if
they weren't, they'd stuff the good resum�s in the dumpster and retrieve
the shoddy ones written by hand on the backs of ripped open cereal boxes
from under the spare tire in the trunk.

BTW, George, if one attempts to get a job as a proofreader or editor
in an ITU controlled shop, one most definitely WILL be expected to
take a spelling test prior to being considered for a job - FYI.
(Please don't try to concoct some argument out of that - I include
 it strictly for informational purposes.)

RE           <<< Note 342.139 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    Someone who doesn't care
>    about how they present themselves is saying, "I don't care what you
>    think of me."  Frankly, I would want my employees to care what I
>    thought about them.  Otherwise, they're saying that the opinion of the
>    person who decides their salary is irrelevant, and I can't imagine
>    hiring someone so detached from the reality of business.

  Well that assumes that both the employer and potential employee agree that
spelling is a way of communicating what you think of another person.

  If your spouse gives you a shopping list with a word spelled wrong does that
mean they don't care what you think of them?

  "Oh no, you spelled 'quart' 'q-u-r-t', does this mean it's over?"

  George

George,
    You're beginning to get even more ridiculous than usual. Have a weekend.

>>  "Oh no, you spelled 'quart' 'q-u-r-t', does this mean it's over?"

	Okay, this is about as ridiculous as it gets.  I don't know
	about Chels, but it means the _discussion's_ over for me at least.

	It's been fun, George.

    ta-ta, meowski.

RE        <<< Note 342.141 by MOLAR::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dogface)" >>>

>If they present themselves not only poorly, but downright slobby, I wouldn't
>necessarily care how they designed software. There are more than enough
>excellent software designers who take the trouble to present themselves
>well. Why should I waste my time on some slovenly creep? 

  Have you been around DEC engineering long?

  Back when we were growing at 30% per year, DEC was run by engineering and
most of us where not only slovenly creeps, we were down right proud of it. 

  Then in the 80's, the bean counters and their suits took over and growth
leveled off. 

  Today we are marketing driven and we crank out the perfectly spelled
bro-cheers by the dozens and the company is eating it's young. 

  I say bring back the slovenly creeps,

  George

    
    Could the mods please correct the spelling of the topic title?  :^)
    

    Would the gods sneeze erect the yelling of the tropic prattle?

    
    Should the rods squeeze perfect welling of myopic beetles?
    

>  Have you been around DEC engineering long?

Going on 18 years , George. Yes I remember some of the slovenly creeps.
One had an office near me. We used to take bets on the virility if the
bacterial strains growing on the "cultures" left in the dishes on his
desk. But only when he wasn't around (luckily he liked the 8PM to 5AM
shift) because when he was around, his personal stench was enough to
drive away even the most courageous silver-tongued marketeer.

Bring that back? I think not. No one needs that. They didn't need it
then and they don't need it now. Excellent technical skills are NOT
a carte blanche approval to be socially offensive. If you feel otherwise,
you're welcome to your fantasy. No one's saying you have to dress in
an Armani suit to be a good engineer. My personal wardrobe consists
of casual shirts, jeans and sneakers. How one dresses does not make
one a slovenly creep.

Like I said. Have a weekend.

    I've heard tell of a programmer (at DG, I think) who would
    sit stark naked in his office and code away. Another that
    I know of, had a couch and small refrigerator moved into
    his office, and lived there. Programmers are a weird bunch...

    -b

RE    <<< Note 342.151 by MPGS::MARKEY "Specialists in Horizontal Decorum" >>>

>    I've heard tell of a programmer (at DG, I think) who would
>    sit stark naked in his office and code away. Another that
>    I know of, had a couch and small refrigerator moved into
>    his office, and lived there. Programmers are a weird bunch...

  ... and proud of it.

  George

    ... yes, in fact we are...
    
    -b

    Re: .142
    
    >that assumes that both the employer and potential employee agree that 
    >spelling is a way of communicating what you think of another person.
    
    Nope.  All it requires is that the employer think it.  If the employer
    thinks it, it doesn't matter what the prospect thinks; it's no hire.
    
    >If your spouse gives you a shopping list with a word spelled wrong
    >does that mean they don't care what you think of them?
    
    So, you think that handing someone a grocery list is analogous to
    giving someone a resume?  You think the circumstances are alike enough
    that one can make a valid comparison?  I've never thought that grocery 
    shopping would change my life, certainly not the way that finding a job 
    would change it.  Your mileage, of course, could vary.

Note 342.62                  Spell'en, doze it mader                   62 of 154
MPGS::MARKEY "Specialists in Horizontal Decorum"     31 lines  17-MAR-1995 11:41
                       -< Priorities People, Priorities >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Glen: {slap}. 'nuff said. :-)

    As for the spelling... it's a matter of priority. When I'm wearing
    my ISO editor hat, I'm very meticulous about spelling and grammar.
    I spent four or five hours writing an article for IEEE Multimedia
    magazine recently; I probably spent twice as long pouring over it
>>>                                                     ^             <<< no U
    and tweaking the grammar. All my business correspondence gets run
    through a spell checker and a grammar checker, then my secretary
    takes a whack at it (and she's quite persnickety).

Gawd, are we having fun yet???   |-{:-P

RE           <<< Note 342.154 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    So, you think that handing someone a grocery list is analogous to
>    giving someone a resume?  You think the circumstances are alike enough
>    that one can make a valid comparison?  I've never thought that grocery 
>    shopping would change my life, certainly not the way that finding a job 
>    would change it.  Your mileage, of course, could vary.

  No I never said that. The question that you and others are asking is of the
form "have you stopped beating your wife yet?". In that case the witness
is being presented with a question of the form:

   "Given that you are beating your wife, have you stopped doing that?"

  Likewise the argument I am hearing is:

   "Given that sending someone a paper with miss spelled words is a sign of
    disrespect, why shouldn't the resume be thrown out?"

  I'm just trying to use that example to illustrate that giving someone a
piece of paper with misspelled words is not necessarily a sign of disrespect.

  George

| <<< Note 342.151 by MPGS::MARKEY "Specialists in Horizontal Decorum" >>>


| I've heard tell of a programmer (at DG, I think) who would sit stark naked in 
| his office and code away. 

	Covert worked at DG?

    Re: .156
    
    >No I never said that.
    
    Then why did you bother posing the question to me?
    
    >I'm just trying to use that example to illustrate that giving someone
    >a piece of paper with misspelled words is not necessarily a sign of 
    >disrespect.
    
    I didn't say that.  I said it indicated a lack of concern of how one
    was perceived.  That lack of concern might be due to carelessness or
    thoughtlessness -- neither of which is entirely desirable in an
    employee.  The bottom line is, if you want a job, you have to impress
    the hirer -- favorably.  Poor spelling and grammar in no way contribute
    to a favorable impression.

           <<< Note 342.158 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    I didn't say that.  I said it indicated a lack of concern of how one
>    was perceived.  That lack of concern might be due to carelessness or
>    thoughtlessness -- neither of which is entirely desirable in an
>    employee.  

  I have no argument about this. But as you say, it MIGHT be due to lack of
thoughtlessness. Then again, it might not. Maybe the person sending me his
resume feels as I do that a few spelling errors don't mean anything.

>The bottom line is, if you want a job, you have to impress
>    the hirer -- favorably.  Poor spelling and grammar in no way contribute
>    to a favorable impression.

  I have no argument with this. Likewise in some places as soon as they see
the name Steinberg the resume goes in the trash. I agree it happens, all I'm
saying is I don't approve of it in either situation.

  George

    Re: .159
    
    >Maybe the person sending me his resume feels as I do that a few
    >spelling errors don't mean anything.
    
    So, someone sending in his resume with spelling errors is taking a
    chance that the recipient actually cares about appearances, and having 
    things done right.  Not a chance I'd like to take with my employment
    and economic future, and I have to wonder about the kind of person who
    would take that chance.  ("I don't care if you hire me."  "Fine, I
    won't then.")

re: .last few (George)

George, I'd like to tell you, in the most kind and helpful way
possible, that while you're a real hang-in-there kinda guy and
will wrestle with any issue, your analogies are really terrible.

This one, your "the basement's flooding", and others, just don't
have what it takes.  Please work on this, so that we may have more
productive exchanges around the issues involved, and less exchanges
around the analogies.

I thank you.
\john

RE           <<< Note 342.160 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    So, someone sending in his resume with spelling errors is taking a
>    chance that the recipient actually cares about appearances, and having 
>    things done right.  Not a chance I'd like to take with my employment
>    and economic future, and I have to wonder about the kind of person who
>    would take that chance.  ("I don't care if you hire me."  "Fine, I
>    won't then.")

  Right, and by the same token I'm sure that a lot of people changed their
name from Steinberg to Smith for exactly the same reason. Others did not and
kept their original names even though in some cases it meant their resume would
go straight into the trash.

  Yes, some people make changes to avoid problems and some do not.

  George

RE             <<< Note 342.161 by ALPHAZ::HARNEY "John A Harney" >>>

>George, I'd like to tell you, in the most kind and helpful way
>possible, that while you're a real hang-in-there kinda guy and
>will wrestle with any issue, your analogies are really terrible.
>
>This one, your "the basement's flooding", and others, just don't
>have what it takes.  Please work on this, so that we may have more
>productive exchanges around the issues involved, and less exchanges
>around the analogies.

  You know it's funny. I have yet to hear someone say "you know George, I
agree with you in principle but your analogies are terrible". For some strange
reason, exactly 100% of the people who don't like my analogies are the people
who are against my point of view in general.

  That in itself suggests to me that they are in fact good analogies and my
opponents will try anything to get both me and my arguments discredited.

  George

    It also suggests the possibility that they are such poor analogies that
    they contribute nothing toward the understanding of your warped
    viewpoint.  And I, for one, will not buy any argument I can't
    understand.
    
    :-)

    Dick, how about an arguement then?

    
    
    Run-on sentences seem, to me, to be more annoying than 
    spelling errors.....
    
    
    
    Terrie
    

>  That in itself suggests to me that they are in fact good analogies and my
>opponents will try anything to get both me and my arguments discredited.

[The sound of towels being tossed is heard in the background . . . 
 But only by George . . . ]

    Yes, I, can, see, you're, point.

    .165
    
    The regular five-minute argument or the deluxe half-hour one?

    Yes run on sentences especially those without proper punctuation.
    really are hard to read when they blather on and on from topic to
    topic, without even a hint, of knowing, what a comma, is used for...or
    an ellipse or a. period and it is even worse when they use ALL CAPITAL
    LETTERS WHICH REALLY MAKES IT HARD TO DECIPHER AND IS AN EYE SORE TO
    BOOT AND THEN EVEN, WORSE IS WHEN, THEY BEGN MISSPELING WURDS AND THE
    NOT LUKS LIK IT IS RITEN IN SUM STRANGE COD AND IT BECOMES TOTALLY
    IMPOSIBLE TO REED AT ALL AS SOON EVEN PUNKTUASHON IS LEFT OUT AS THEY
    RAMBLE ON AND ON AND ON CREATING A PRAGRAF OF EMENS PROPORSHONS THAT
    KEEPS GETTING LONGER AND LONGER WITH NO END IN SITE,...; THAT YOU CAN'T
    READ AT ALL SO YOU JUST HIT; NEXT...UNSEEN TO GET THIS, MESS, OFF.
    YUR SCREEN BEFORE IT GIVES YOU A HEADAKE?

    .170
    
    BENE SIT.  LATINE SCRIBAMVS.  ROMANI NEC MINVSCVLES NEC LITTERAS "J"
    VEL "U" HABEBANT.  INTERPVNCTIONEM HODIERNAM ETIAM NON VTEBANTVR.

    Yes, like that.  8^)

    A deluxe one, just between you and I.  ;-)

Steve's .170 reminded of a piece that was floating around the E Net years
ago which I've been trying to locate for some time - it had to do with
someone who was supposed to write a Small Buffer article about the VAX
11/780 and its 32 bit wordsize. They had obtained a "bargain typewriter"
which only had one deficiency - the "t" was broken, so they used a "+".
As the story went on, more keys broke and more substitutions took place
("$" for "s", "#" for "h", "0" for "o", etc.) until by the end of the
story, there was little still represented by the appropriate characters,
although it was still quite readable (though humorous) as you'd seen the
"evolution".

If anyone has a copy of this, could you either post it in the JOKES
topic here in the 'box or Email me a copy?

Thanks,
-Jack

RE              <<< Note 342.164 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

>    It also suggests the possibility that they are such poor analogies that
>    they contribute nothing toward the understanding of your warped
>    viewpoint.  And I, for one, will not buy any argument I can't
>    understand.
    
  No that doesn't fly because people are free to form opinions on their own.

  What I'm saying is that no one has ever told me (and I'm talking my hole life
here, not just SOAPBOX) that they agree with me in principle but my analogies
are bad. Everyone who hates my analogies is already dead set against the point
of view for which I'm using my analogies.

  That's just what I've noticed.

  George

    Well, George, you already admitted that your "grocery list" example was
    nothing like the situation we were discussing.  Which means either it
    was a bad analogy, or you asked a really silly question.

    The one-line whining is worse than the run-on sentences.

    Well, I'm sure I'd agree with you wholeheartedly if I was a moderator
    of soapbox. ;-)

    RE: .177
    
    >    The one-line whining is worse than the run-on sentences.

RE           <<< Note 342.176 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    Well, George, you already admitted that your "grocery list" example was
>    nothing like the situation we were discussing.  Which means either it
>    was a bad analogy, or you asked a really silly question.

  That's not what I said. I used the grocery list example to suggest that
there is no implied message of disrespect when one person hands a 2nd person
a piece of paper with misspelled words. I still believe that to be true.

  And I'm still waiting for someone to say "I agree with George in principle
that spelling shouldn't count on Resumes but his grocery list example is
terrible", or "I agree with George in principle that the 2nd amendment only
applies to militia but I don't agree with his water in the basement analogy".

  So far, everyone who hates my analogies is also against the principle that
I'm trying to support with those analogies.

  George

    Re: .180
    
    These are the questions I asked in .154:
    
    |So, you think that handing someone a grocery list is analogous to
    |giving someone a resume?  You think the circumstances are alike enough
    |that one can make a valid comparison?
    
    And in .156, you replied:
    
    |No I never said that.
    
    Now, here:
    
    >I used the grocery list example to suggest that there is no implied 
    >message of disrespect when one person hands a 2nd person a piece of 
    >paper with misspelled words.
    
    You're saying that the two situations are, in fact, analogous.  But
    they aren't.  Most job seekers I've encountered want to get the
    prospective employer to respect them.  When you hand someone a grocery
    list, you're not trying to give them a favorable impression of you,
    you're just trying to get them to the store.  Therefore, your example
    is irrelevant to the resume situation, and it's a poor analogy.
    
    >everyone who hates my analogies is also against the principle that I'm 
    >trying to support with those analogies.
    
    That's because, in this topic, you're pretty much wrong all around....

    BTW, do you think that showing up for an interview with your tie untied
    or your shirt untucked matters?

RE           <<< Note 342.181 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    You're saying that the two situations are, in fact, analogous.  But
>    they aren't.  Most job seekers I've encountered want to get the
>    prospective employer to respect them.  When you hand someone a grocery
>    list, you're not trying to give them a favorable impression of you,
>    you're just trying to get them to the store.  Therefore, your example
>    is irrelevant to the resume situation, and it's a poor analogy.

  But once again you have accepted as a given and sent the message in your note
that spelling is a way to earn respect. The unstated given in your paragraph
above says "Given that we all agree that a display of spelling is a way to
earn respect, Most job seekers ...

  I don't agree with that unspoken given. I wouldn't have any more or less
respect for someone who sent me a resume with a few spelling errors than I
would have for someone who sent me a perfect resume if I were looking to
hire a computer programmer.
    
>    That's because, in this topic, you're pretty much wrong all around....

  There you go. It's the old "I win this argument because I am right and you
are wrong". Now there's a solid argument if I've ever seen one.

  George

RE           <<< Note 342.182 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    BTW, do you think that showing up for an interview with your tie untied
>    or your shirt untucked matters?

  If I were looking to hire a computer programmer I wouldn't care if they
showed up in sweat cloths and sneakers. All I'd care about is their education,
experience, and the knowledge and potential ability that they showed during the
interview. 

  George

    Re: .183
    
    >But once again you have accepted as a given and sent the message in
    >your note that spelling is a way to earn respect.
    
    Attention to detail is a way to earn respect.  Sloppiness is not a way
    to earn respect.  Spelling is one way sloppiness might be demonstrated.
    
    >Now there's a solid argument if I've ever seen one.
    
    Considering you can't recognize a joke when you see one, I have no
    faith in your ability to discern a solid argument, either.

RE           <<< Note 342.185 by OOTOOL::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    Attention to detail is a way to earn respect.  Sloppiness is not a way
>    to earn respect.  Spelling is one way sloppiness might be demonstrated.

  Fine, if spelling is a litmus test to you on respect then you keep tossing
resumes with poor spelling in the trash. I refuse to judge people on that basis
alone because I know I'd be risking losing a shot a hiring a good programmer. 

  George

	If one spells good, but shows up shirtless to an interview, will she/he
get the job?

>	If one spells good, but shows up shirtless to an interview, will she/he
>get the job?

She?  Depends on the job.  See the Chesty Morgan discussion.

| <<< Note 342.188 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

| See the Chesty Morgan discussion.

	Why would you think that would interest me? :-)

    RE: .187
    
    >If one spells good...
    
    If one spells "well"...
    
    NNTTM
    YMTW
    

    .186
    Spells Good, should that not be, Spells well, or is a good speller.
    
    
    joan
    

    .191
    
    Shouldn't there have been a question mark at the end of that sentence?

    ;-)

	When dealing with spelling issues, one talks about how all the words
are spelt. If one talks about grammar issues, then one can talk about how the
sentences are structured. I was talking about spelling, so grammar is not
important when dealing with the issue I was.


Glen

        .193

    > grammar is not
    > important when dealing with the issue I was.

    I beg to differ.  Both spelling and grammar are elements of language. 
    Discussion of a language is carried out in a metalanguage that may, as
    in this case, incorporate most or all elements of the language under
    discussion in itself.  Metalanguage must of necessity be used precisely
    and correctly to avoid the possibility of misconstruction.  In other
    words, you cannot with any credibility pontificate on the correct use
    of language if you yourself can't use language correctly.

  Here's a spelling and grammar question that came up on a bad movie I was
watching the other night.

  Is the past tense of hang, hanged or hung?

  People say "the outlaw was hanged" but they "hung their cloths in the closet".

  Doesn't make sense,
  George

jorj -- wut maeks you say inglish duznt maek sens?

    .195
    
    Of course it makes sense.  Both forms are correct; "hanged" is a more
    archaic form that is still in use in law primarily because law tends to
    retain archaisms long after they are out of use in other fields.

Hanged is a more archaic form?  I thought language tends to move away from
irregular forms.

    It does.  Sometimes.  Most often, it moves away from forms requiring
    more effort to form, and "hanged" is more effort to say and write than
    is "hung."  This avoidance of effort results in languages' becoming
    more positional and less inflected; vide the modern Romantic languages
    vis a vis Latin.

snrf!

ME

    
    
     I concede!!
    
     Glen Silva speaks gooder English than all of us!!!
    

    Not only that, you're giving up too!

    I believe that "hanged" and "hung" are not synonymous.
    
    	"He was hanged out to dry"
    
    	"He was hanged over"
    
    	"He was well hanged"
    
    These make no sense.  

    Did you hear about the plastic surgeon who hung himself?

    
    No, but something tells me we're about to...
    
    

    read it again.

    see, if the plastic surgeon HANGED himself, it's entirely different...

    Yes, then he would have killed himself.

    Re: .203
    
    You're confusing the past tense with the participle.

    Is it a much more better thing to speak propper or spell well?
    
    joan
    

RE     <<< Note 342.208 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "KFC and tandem potty tricks" >>>

>    Yes, then he would have killed himself.

  ... or perhaps he would have been kull.

  George

>    You're confusing the past tense with the participle.

No.  If it's on a gallows, both past tense and past participle are "hanged."
Otherwise, both past tense and past participle are "hung."

| <<< Note 342.194 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

| > grammar is not important when dealing with the issue I was.

| I beg to differ.  Both spelling and grammar are elements of language.

	Dick... you just backed what I said above. They are both ELEMENTS of
language. But if one talks about spelling, and nothing else, then that is the
subject. Remember way back when you were a kid? Did you have something called
spelling? Did grammar play into it when you had to spell the words? If the
answer is no, then this is another tool which I hope will show you one can talk
about spelling, without including gammar. :-)

| In other words, you cannot with any credibility pontificate on the correct use
| of language if you yourself can't use language correctly.

	HEY!!!!! I can to use the language right.... :-)

    .213
    
    You misinterpreted what I wrote, Glen.
    
    > But if one talks about spelling, and nothing else, then that is the
    > subject.
    
    Of course.
    
    > Remember way back when you were a kid? Did you have something called
    > spelling? Did grammar play into it when you had to spell the words?
    
    Yes.  Yes.  No.  But when we had to DISCUSS the spelling of words,
    suddenly grammar became important.  There's a significant difference
    between spelling a word and discussing its spelling; the latter, as
    communication in the metalanguage that we use to discuss language,
    should be conducted correctly.

	Butt eye deed dizcuss eet rightly Dick.

    Glen, you contended that grammar is not important in a discussion of
    spelling.  I offered a different opinion.  Okay?

    How about 'hunged'.  8^)

    Re: .212
    
    Yes, I've been told that.  But the examples didn't seem to have much to
    do with gallows.

    
    bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ahem good one karen

| <<< Note 342.216 by SMURF::BINDER "vitam gustare" >>>

| Glen, you contended that grammar is not important in a discussion of spelling.
| I offered a different opinion.  Okay?


    Errr.....no. :-)  Hey, were you really being serious through all this?

| <<< Note 342.219 by POWDML::LAUER "Little Chamber of Fuzzy Faces" >>>


| -< {cough} >-


	Deb, were you at my last physical????

>    Is it a much more better thing to speak propper or spell well?
    
    ...should read;
    
    "Is it more good to talk propperly or spell right?"

    
    From the replies, it is clear that spelling does matter, to some
    folks anyway.
    
    jeff

RE             <<< Note 342.224 by ODIXIE::CIAROCHI "One Less Dog" >>>

>    "Is it more good to talk propperly or spell right?"

  I think that should be "more gooder".

  George

RE: 342.225 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung"

So does math.


Phil

    Bollox....oppps sorry I mean Bollocks

re .195 ff:

Originally "hang" meaning to execute and "hang" meaning most other meanings
were two different words with different spellings, pronunciations and origin.
The words were somewhat similar in spelling/pronunciation, however. One was a
regular verb the other irregular. Eventually the evolution of English caused
the pronunciation and spelling to change, both present tenses changed into
"hang".  The similarity of meaning probably accelerated this process.  But
both retained their respective forms of the past tense, at least somewhat.
"Hanged" is being used less and less since the execute version of "hang"
is more rarely used and it is seen by most people as a variation of "hang" to
hang up an item.  This word "hung" is the past tense.  (actually if I remember
there were actually 3 different words involved but two evolved into the
"hang/hung" pair, and I don't remember what the original difference in meaning
was) 

English has many words where two or more words with entirely different origins
and meanings are now pronounced and spelled the same, but usually there isn't
a merge of two words with similar (in a ways) meanings of the same type (verb)
but with one regular and one irregular.
 

    
    PAGE ONE -- Bad Spelling Now Viewed As Inventive / Schools see
    workbooks, drills as discouragements 


    Nanette Asimov, Chronicle Staff Writer 

    D-SAN FRANCISCO 

    After hearing the story ``Jack and the Beanstalk,'' 6-year-old Pablo
    wrote a story of his own and read it to his summer school teacher in a
    halting voice: 

    ``If I would have magic beans, I would save the beans. And when I save
    the beans, then I will give them away. The end.'' 

    Michelle Chabra smiled at her student's brief recital. Then she looked
    at what he had written: 

    ``If i wd hf mg ics I wd save the bses and one I sav the bes then I wi
    g thm way the end.'' 

    Known as ``inventive spelling,'' such creativity is permitted -- even
    encouraged -- in many American classrooms. 

    Although Pablo has completed first grade, like thousands of elementary
    school children he has never studied vocabulary lists, never used a
    spelling workbook and never spent a morning at the blackboard writing
    corrected sentences 500 times. 

    ``The whole approach to using inventive spelling is to encourage
    students to become writers in the truest sense,'' said Chabra, who
    teaches first and second grade at San Francisco's Bryant Elementary
    School. 

    ``When kids are limited to words they know how to spell, they write
    `good' instead of `wonderful.' They use simpler language, and their
    thoughts become more stilted.'' 

    The teaching of basic spelling has undergone a quiet revolution in the
    United States during the past 15 years. Drills are out. Learning to
    spell by reading is in. Teachers have become increasingly reluctant to
    ``stifle'' the efforts of young writers by correcting their spelling or
    marking errors as wrong. 

    ``The issue is confidence,'' Chabra said. 

    But if students are gaining confidence in writing more creatively,
    parents are losing confidence in the public schools' ability to teach
    their children the most basic academic skills. 

    In a recent state-by-state comparison, California's fourth-graders tied
    with Louisiana's children for the dubious distinction of being the
    worst readers in the nation. 

    Within California, fewer than half the students in grades 4, 8 and 10
    achieved even basic academic proficiency on a statewide exam in April,
    prompting state Superintendent Delaine Eastin to call the results
    ``alarming.'' She quickly appointed task forces to study the problems
    with math and reading. 

    Now a push to restore ``basics'' to the public curriculum is occurring
    in California, where ``inventive spelling'' has been the practice in
    many school districts for years. The effort has the support of
    Republican and Democratic lawmakers in Sacramento, who have joined
    together on a package of bills to require local schools to buy
    textbooks emphasizing basic reading, writing, arithmetic -- and
    spelling. 

    ``Teaching someone how to spell does not mean you have to take away
    their self-esteem,'' said Assemblyman John Burton, a San Francisco
    Democrat and co-author of the so-called ABC bills. ``Kids can be taught
    the basics while allowing their imaginations to roam free. It doesn't
    mean that you go back to the three R's taught to the tune of a hickory
    stick.'' 

    Even former state Superintendent Bill Honig supports the back-
    to-basics bills. Honig had earned the respect of educators nationwide
    during the 1980s in part for encouraging teachers to replace old basal
    readers with real literature. 

    ``Where we went wrong is that we weren't specific enough on the basic
    skills,'' Honig said. ``We thought teachers would continue teaching the
    skills, but they didn't. Spelling is important. A good spelling program
    teaches around 60 to 75 words a week, or 15 minutes a day.'' 

    But spelling is never as straightforward as it sounds. 

    Many education professors -- arguably the people with the most
    influence on how teachers teach -- seriously doubt the benefits of what
    some call mind-numbing, time-wasting practice drills. 

    Among the most outspoken critics is Professor Stephen Krashen of the
    University of Southern California, who writes: ``Learning spelling
    rules is of dubious value. . . . When spelling instruction works, it
    may only be helping children learn to spell words they will learn to
    spell on their own from reading.'' 

    Back at Bryant Elementary School, a vocabulary list hangs on the wall:
    ``all, ball, call, hall, mall . . .'' But head teacher Kim Mukoyama
    cautions that the list should not be mistaken for a traditional
    back-to-basics spelling drill. 

    ``I read the students `Humpty- Dumpty sat on a wall,' '' Mukoyama said,
    ``and I asked them what other words they knew that rhymed with `wall.'
    They came up with the word list.'' 

    She pulled out one of the children's daily journals. A 7-year-old girl
    had written, ``I am goen to Disni land and I am goint to hav fan weth
    my famaly.'' 

    Mukoyama said, ``I could look at that and say, `You spelled this wrong,
    and that wrong.' Or I could say, `Look what she's trying to
    communicate!' Correcting her would make her more nervous about sharing
    it.'' 

    Mukoyama pointed to a teacher's note on the page correctly spelling
    some of the words that the child had misspelled. It said, ``That's
    great! My family went to Disneyland three years ago.'' 

    ``We learn to spell using music, poetry and stories,'' Mukoyama said.
    ``But with traditional vocabulary lists you have no songs, no poems --
    and no interest.'' 



    DAY: MONDAY 

    DATE: 7/10/95 

    PAGE: A1 

    � 7/10/95 , San Francisco Chronicle 

 Is "inventive math" next?

    Well, inventive history is hardly unknown...

    re: .232
    
    
    Good point.
    
    
    How about inventive science?
    
    
    -steve

    <---- we already have a topic for that, see also Creation Science.

    
    Hey, it must work.  George Maiewski (one of the principals in this 
    topic) was proud of not being able to spell, and the material he
    was writing was extremely inventive.
    
    Oh, for a modern American education, where no one is ever wrong
    or makes a mistake, because it just doesn't matter.  America must
    be such a happy gumdrop land of make-believe! ;-)
    

        
    > Is "inventive math" next?

    It already exists,......
    It's called.....
    
    A Pentium !

    :-)
    Dan

        
    > Although Pablo has completed first grade, like thousands of elementary
    > school children he has never studied vocabulary lists, never used a
    > spelling workbook and never spent a morning at the blackboard writing
    > corrected sentences 500 times. 

    This is REALLY SCARY !

    > ``The whole approach to using inventive spelling is to encourage
    > students to become writers in the truest sense,'' said Chabra,...

    What the H*!! good is it to be a creative writer, IF NOBODY BUT YOU CAN
    READ IT ! ! ! ! !

    Dan

    Being made to spell correctly does NOT limit one's ability to be
    creative.  What nonsense.  If you can't put your creative writing down
    on paper in a way that others can read it, what good is it?  
    
    Now, if you want to write down notes for an oral speech in an
    interesting manner, that's another story.
    
    
    -steve

    >> What the H*!! good is it to be a creative writer, IF NOBODY BUT YOU CAN
    >> READ IT ! ! ! ! !
    
    If you're a liberal politician that pushes this kind of feelgood
    education (as well as "ethnic pride" education and multi-lingual
    education), here's what good it is:
    
    It creates a permanent subclass of near-illiterate people who will
    be forever stuck in the backrooms instead of being businesspeople,
    doctors, writers, teachers, engineers; people who will be endlessly
    dependent on, and grateful to, the government for financial support
    and a planetfull of growing government services; people who will be
    kept so ignorant that they'll never even realize how they're being
    taken, generation after generation after generation.
    
    But they'll be happy and proud, so it's all okay.
    
    If education had been like this when my father was young and when
    I was young, right now I'd be making pizzas and slicing salami in
    the back room at Pisano's Pizza Shop.
    
    Chris

    Contrary to the pronouncements of most modern linguists and social
    "scientists", words and language are primarily tools of thinking and
    slightly less for communication. Therefore, the decay of todays
    language through the misusing, misspelling and twisting of words
    actually corrodes the tools of thinking. Powerful thinking, required by
    todays complex society, requires the use of consistent, exact
    definitions of words along with precise, accurate contexts for all
    words and concepts. To accurately define meanings and contexts of
    important words and concepts is not only central to precise
    communication, oral or written, but is the key to effective thinking
    and reasoning. The education of today will lead to unthinking humans in
    the future.
    
    ...Tom (IMHO of course) 

 .240 

   >>Powerful thinking, required by
   >>todays complex society, requires the use of consistent, exact
   >>definitions of words along with precise, accurate contexts for all
   >>words and concepts.

	...and is also helped along by a judicious sprinkling of
	apostrophes in prose. ;>

Well, that does it for me: Tom and Chris are one and the same person. Chris 
has even taken up the cross of objectivism (if you'll pardon the allusion, 
Tom :'))

So I'll argue a bit with both...

DECWIN::RALTO "I hate summer"                        22 lines  11-JUL-1995 11:37
               -< Keep the voters stupid, dependent, and happy >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    If you're a liberal politician that pushes this kind of feelgood
>    education (as well as "ethnic pride" education and multi-lingual
>    education), here's what good it is:

The problem is, Chris, it wasn't invented by politicians, liberal or 
otherwise. Educators came up with it. And it's not the cause of modern-day 
illiteracy but a reaction to it. In the face of television, among other 
contemporary influences (such as the parentless family), written 
communication is a dying skill, both on the giving and receiving end. We 
are fast becoming an almost purely spectator society. All observe and 
react. Nintendoland.

What educators are trying to do is rekindle the creative impulse. If their 
educational philosophy is misguided, or if schools are misapplying it by 
utterly neglecting basic skills *outside* of creative writing projects, 
then point out the flaws of the theory and suggest alternatives - with 
reasoned arguments for why they would be more effective. I warn you, 
though, promoting good ol' fashioned education as the answer would be like 
saying "our armies would win more battles if only they used bows and 
arrows." Educators are fighting a far more sophisticated and heavily armed 
enemy than they faced even 40 years ago.

DASHER::RALSTON "cantwejustbenicetoeachother?:)"     14 lines  11-JUL-1995 12:12

>    Contrary to the pronouncements of most modern linguists and social
>    "scientists", words and language are primarily tools of thinking and
>    slightly less for communication. Therefore, the decay of todays...

What does this have to do with spelling in creative writing projects? I 
don't know about you, but when I think in words (which is not the only - or 
even the most important - form of thought; ask Einstein's ghost), I don't 
see written words in my mind's eye; I "hear" them. Spelling is irrelevant. 
Mind you, no educator that I know of thinks sloppy spelling should be 
*encouraged*. Quite the contrary. Most would agree with much of what you 
said (in principle, at least). Rather, what these kind of programs are 
attempting to do is an end-around, to sucker kids into getting excited 
about expressing ideas in the hopes that it will get them excited about 
learning in general, which in turn will make them receptive to acquiring 
the basic skills.    

Whether this approach is working is highly debatable. If it is, it's 
nowhere near enough. We're loosing ground. We need something much more 
revolutionary and creative, I'm afraid. 

But to cast this effort as a liberal-big-government conspiracy to dumb
America is pure nonsense and offers nothing constructive to the debate -
and even less to resolving the problem (IMHO of course). 

Tom, too.

> Well, that does it for me: Tom and Chris are one and the same person.

You mean D*::RAL*TO*?

    Chaucer and Shakespeare lost many spelling bees.

>> The problem is, Chris, it wasn't invented by politicians, liberal or 
>> otherwise. Educators came up with it.
    
    I was using some verbal shorthand there... I lump together
    liberal politicians with liberal government employees who
    work in the school system (aka "educators").  They're working
    together, playing the same game from the same side of the boat.
    
    Most teachers I've ever known have either been liberals, or
    have quietly played along with whatever silly programs the
    politicians and administrators were ramming down the pipe,
    to keep their jobs.
    
    Chris

    re: Tom Davis' defense of pesudo spelling
    
     Gee, what a surprise. One of the few remaining liberals defending a
    practice which engenders illiteracy, which was, surprise, started by
    other liberals.
    
    >We're loosing ground.
    
     Losing. OTOH, mebbe it's just that he cain't spell either... ;-)

    	Welcome to Goles 2000.

    
    Isaac Newton could not spell,
    Galileo didn't do it well,
    Marlowe had a lot of funne,
    Must be morons - every one,
    ee cummings (lost in space)
    did it without upper case.

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     11-Jul-1995 10:00am EDT
                                        From:     Readers Choice
                                                  CHOICE.READERS@A1@SALES@AKO
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Subject: #16322-Subscription Invitation                                         

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    PLURAL POSSESSIVES
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    COMMON ERRORS IN CAPITALIZATION
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          <<< Note 342.246 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "the countdown is on" >>>

>    re: Tom Davis' defense of pesudo spelling

I'd never defend pesudo spelling. I don't even know what it is.
    
>     Gee, what a surprise. One of the few remaining liberals defending a
>    practice which engenders illiteracy, which was, surprise, started by
>    other liberals.

What good is good spelling if you remain reading-comprehension-impaired?
You have cause-and-effect proof of your "engenders illiteracy" assertion,
Doctah? No insights to add to the debate? Did the following extract offer
much "defense?" ( typo aside :-)) 
    
>    >We're loosing ground.
    

    >> -< by your logicke they were thicke >-
    >> Isaac Newton could not spell,
    >> Galileo didn't do it well,
    
    But it's a different world today, where go-it-alone types would
    have a hard time getting much of anything significant accomplished.
    If Newton or Galileo were alive today, they'd probably be working
    at some university, where they'd have to publish constantly and
    write reports to obtain research grants, and so on.  Or they'd be
    working for a big company like IBM, where they'd also have to be
    good at effective communication.  If you want to succeed in just
    about any field in this country, it's necessary to be able to express
    yourself clearly and accurately in English.
    
    Chris

    
    .251
    
    Isaac Newton was a university professor who was quite used to having
    his writings critiqued by other professors.  First emeritus chair
    of mathematickes at Oxbridge, I believe.  I doubt the spelling got in
    the way of the ideas.
    
    At our level of communication, I don't doubt your interpretation.  I do
    take issue with the idea that spelling is an essential element of
    communication and language acquisition or development in a 6-year-old. 
    A tend towards the opinion that there are bases of linguistic skills
    that a child should attain which are very important and that spelling
    is not one of these.  Spelling skills can come later and will come more
    easily and rapidly once the bases are attained.
    

    In fact, this whole article was iffy.   Firstly, the example used is a
    six-year old.  Show me an eight or ten year old that had similar
    problems and I would be looking for a root cause.  The fact is, this
    kid's ability is probably within the broad range of linguistic ability
    for the US population of kids aged 6.

    Secondly, the name Pablo and the geographical location suggest that the
    kid is possibly a product of a bilingual environment. Most linguists
    and psycholinguists now agree that language competence (including
    writing skills) is a combination of different processes such as operant
    conditioning (Skinner), absorption (Premack's environmental influences)
    and the innate language acquisition process proposed by Noam Chomsky. 
    
    What the 'ologists also agree on is that operant conditioning, (or
    mind-numbing rote learning as the article calls it) is the least
    adaptable process and is the first one that the child naturally
    abandons as it acquires language.  What Krashen was trying to say in
    the article is that you can get a gorilla to spell simple words by
    operant conditioning, but you can't get it to write a spontaneous
    sentence no matter how much effort you invest.

    In cases where a child is learning two languages, it's not unknown for
    these processes to interfere with each other and cause a slight deficit
    in some skillsets.  Given that he's had four years in the home and two
    in kindergarten, I'd bet good money his Spanish writing and spelling is
    better than his English, simply because of the absorption process.

    Consider his Grammar:

     If I would have magic beans, I would save the beans. 
     And when I save the beans, then I will give them away.

    There are few errors here and some complex grammatical constructs for a
    6-yr old.  What errors there are indicate the type of interference you
    see when a child learns the grammatical constructs of one language and
    attempts to apply it to another.  

    e.g.: Beth prynodd hi?

    Literal English translation:

    What bought she?

    The kid's own written story also demonstrates limitations in the
    ability to retain and reproduce vocabulary from the original story. 
    Probably as a result of speaking a language other than English in the
    home.  This would suggest a basic skill that needs much encouragement,
    best done through varied interactive exposure to the vocabulary - not
    rote learning.
                            
    Turning to his representation of the words:

     If i wd hf mg ics I wd save the bses and one I sav the bes then I wi
     g thm way the end.

    This looks like an attempt to apply general phonemic rules of the English
    alphabet.  Chomsky argues that this is typical of a child learning
    language, trying to construct a "morphophonemic" structure on a base of
    syntactical rules.  This child is getting the grammar, but is presently 
    having problems with correctly representing the phonemes.  However, the
    kid is learning well enough to make some good guesses at phonemic rules
    - "wd" and "thm" are very inventive as far as the analysis by synthesis
    process goes.  There may be strong interference from Spanish phonemic
    rules which account for the serious errors.  Want ads such as:

    Wanted: sngl w f to shr apt in qns.

    show how much you can "compress the bandwith" of language information
    in order to maximise information in minimal space.  This kid is
    demonstrating that he can learn and generalize phonemic rules.  Vowels
    can be left out, but consonants are needed.


    If Pablo studied vocabulary lists, or spelling workbook and spent a
    morning at the blackboard writing corrected sentences 500 times, would
    it improve his performance?

    Chances are that it would not.  Chabra's diagnosis is spot on.  Pablo
    needs to expand his English vocabulary and complete the first two
    stages of communicating in English before tackling the complex rules of
    English spelling (even the simplified American English spelling).
    Practice in reading and writing, with lots of positive reinforcement
    would be the best possible way to attain the initial linguistic goals.

    Benjamin Whorf first put forward the idea that language constrains
    thought, a notion that Chabra mentions in the article.  That idea has
    been seized upon in this discussion, but the notion is very suspect. If
    good spelling is "essential" for communication then you also have to
    address the issues of how great literary figures like Chaucer coped
    without dictionaries; how we can read want ads; how language constantly
    evolves.  Language has a large bandwidth but it can be subjected to
    compression and still preserve significant meaning. An important part
    of a child's linguistic education is understanding that flexibility. 
    They will not acquire those skills through rote learning and parroting.


    Part of problem here is that parents love to blame schools for
    perceived inabilities in "basic academic skills".  The solution is
    largely in their own hands.  Turn off the TV, read to (and with) your
    kids and make up for the limited opportunities that a teacher has to
    focus on any particular child's needs.

    It's notable in the article that both parents and pols are alarmed by
    the results of examinations but then offer no concrete suggestions
    other than the tired old "let's get back to basics" rhetoric.  Sure, I
    can design you a rote-learning book-based approach to education that
    will attain your examination goals.  That's all it will do though -
    they won't all get to be writers.  (By the way, it'll double your
    school budget next year. I guess you'll be asking those parents to
    cough up on the taxes. No?)

    
    (My humble opinion, as always.)
    
    Colin
    

    .252
    
    > What Krashen was trying to say in
    > the article is that you can get a gorilla to spell simple words by
    > operant conditioning, but you can't get it to write a spontaneous
    > sentence no matter how much effort you invest.
    
    Possibly because gorillas lack the fine motor skills for handwriting. 
    It is clear that they have significant linguistic skills and can both
    understand and create sentences communicated by ASL.

RE: 342.247 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?"

Or is it Gaols 2000,  the replacement program?

    
    .253
    
    That was the point.  No base, no superstructure.  The gorilla
    language studies have been seriously undermined in the last
    few years, so I would not put much store in them as offering
    great insight into human language development, other than in
    support of Comsky's LAD thoery.

    .255
    
    > studies have been seriously undermined
    
    You refer to Koko and her mentors?  Last I heard, a year or so ago, her
    vocabulary was about 900 words and still growing.

    
    Yes, but how are her table manners???
    
    

    This is a bit of a feeble example,but my Gran (when she was alive,bless
    her) at 93 years old could write more coherently that your average
    yoof of today.
    
    And she went to school at the local comprehensive (or whatever they
    were called way back then),and left at aged 14. So,er that goes
    to prove something.
    
    And she came from Didcot,which makes it all the more remarkable.
    

    Dis bak

    
    A hand-written sign attached to a pile of junk left outside of a file
    room in the law department this afternoon:
    
    
    T R A C H 
    
                               
    

 Maybe the person performed tracheotomies (sp?)?

    The poor person just forgot an `E' that's all.

    
    	all our trash says "LIXO" on it....:*)
    
    

    And all our trash says Basura Por Favor. Go figure...

    Canadians do not write on their trach.

    Ours usually remains silent 8^).
    
     

    Talkative garbage is a bad thing I think.

    
     (Eng)     (US)
    Whipped = Whiped  
    Carrots = Carots
    
       That right ??

    
    Martin pet.  Please don't assign those dreadful spellos to the entire
    population of this country, or I shall have to kill you.
    
                                                             

    but I don't want to die !

    You're just being very stubborn tonight.

    Moi! (I wanted to write something here, but could spell the second
    word in French, so you can have this line of text instead) :*)
    

    Martin luv, if I kill you, I promise you'll en oy it.

    Yes that's the name I was refering to. I don't want to en oy it, I want
    to enjoy it. But muther, father son, father !!

    
    Ran spell check on my first missive that included Bob Palmer in the
    TO: list.
    
    Bob got corrected to Bob Polymer.  Kind of accurate if you think about
    it...

only if yer talkin about his hair

Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: [email protected] (Peter Smith)
Subject: Citroen seed source?
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:28:05 GMT

Can anyone suggest a catalogue(s) that offer citroen (spelling?)
seeds for sale?  Many thanks!

    Trying to grow cars?

    > Can anyone suggest a catalogue(s) that offer citroen (spelling?)
    > seeds for sale?
    
    The European continent offers many varities of Citroen, from the
    delightful post-WWII 2 door model, to the racy 90's, politically
    correct station wagon.
    
    I believe, however that they must be purchased at the dealerships, and
    not grown.
    
    If that's not what you want however, I DO have some magic beans for
    sale...

    From the Internet:
    
    
            I have a spelling chequer 
            It came with my pea sea
            It plainly marques four my revue 
            Miss steaks eye cannot sea.
    
            When eye strike a quay, right a word 
            I weight four it two say
            Weather eye I am wrong oar wright 
            It shows me strait away.
    
            As soon as a mist ache is maid 
            It nose bee fore two late
            And eye can put the error rite 
            Its rarely, rarely grate.
    
            I've run this poem threw it
            I'm shore your pleased two no
            Its letter perfect in it's weigh 
            My chequer tolled me sew.
    
    
                                       Sauce unknown

Hmph.

"Chequer", "marques", and "wright" don't make it through my spelling
chequer, even when I tell it to use UK Engelske.

/john

    Your checker balks at wright?  As in wheelwright or cartwright? 
    Oopsie.
    
    I have Eudora set up to use the CAHD for its spelling checker, and the
    CAHD accepts chequer, marques, and wright.  The checker that's built
    into ClarisWorks balked at chequer, but it took wright and marques.

    Must be it came with the Mac.  :)

    Eudora, CAHD, and ClarisWorks are all available for the PC.

    But they don't work as well as on the Mac!  :)

    I dunno.  Ask what's-his-name, he uses ClarisWorks on his PC.

    What's going on here. The world as we know it is ending. Next thing you
    know cats and mice will be living together in perfect harmony.  :)