Conference back40::soapbox

    Just out of spite, I am going to bring my one year old daughter in.  I
    am going to be sure she has a dirty diaper for a lengthy period of
    time.  I will be sure to wake her up from her nap an hour early...and I
    will be sure to feed her half the amount so she'll be a whiny brat. 
    And if I hear so much as one complaint I will sue for age
    discrimination.
    
    -Jack

    Out of spite to what Jack? To those that look on this as a
    chance to spend a day with their daughter? You're probably
    a nice guy, be jeeesh you seem to have a whopper of a chip
    on your shoulder...
    
    -b

    
    Is this like a free for all on people that have daughters???? Better
    make sure all the young men are locked up first. :-)
    
    Mark

    Last year I was going to bring my then 6 year old daughter in to work
    with me.  I was told by security that only daughters aged 9 - 18 years
    old were allowed to participate in the activities for the day.
    
    What, they're only considered a daughter when they hit age 9?  What are
    they called before then?
    
    

    .3 Mark
    
    My daughter is off limits to you.  Although she would probably love you
    to pieces!
    
    

	I think it's just as stupid an idea this year as I did last year.
	If they're gonna do this at all, just make it "Take Our Children
	to Work Day".  None of this singling out daughters.  (Unless there's
    	a "Take Our Sons to Work Day" that I haven't heard about.)

	I'll work on the irateness bit later, maybe.

    
    I think there should be a separate "Take Our Sons To Work Day".  I
    don't think they should be lumped together.

    re .1
    
    jack, I believe they have a term for people who leave their children
    sitting in poopie diapers.

 I liked someone's comment last year.."take your boy to the ballpark" day..

 (not this year though :-(

    >	I think it's just as stupid an idea this year as I did last year.
    >	If they're gonna do this at all, just make it "Take Our Children
    >	to Work Day".  None of this singling out daughters.  (Unless there's
    >	a "Take Our Sons to Work Day" that I haven't heard about.)
    
    Depends on the age. Don't everyone jump down my throat here, but
    I can picture my daughter managing to keep herself reasonably
    quiet and entertained if I brought her here a lot easier than
    I could picture my son doing it. Boys have that built-in fidget
    hormone, and that's pretty much the truth of it. As well behaved
    as my son is (and he is very well behaved) I think he'd at
    least be extremely bored with the whole idea, whereas my daugther
    would be happy to sit here all day with a good book and maybe
    a handful of art supplies.
    
    -b

	.10 so what?  let everyone make that decision for themselves.

    I want there to be a "Take your llama to work" day. Only llamas between
    the age of 9 and 18 would be given a badge and allowed to enter.

    >	.10 so what?  let everyone make that decision for themselves.
    
    I agree. It's just that I bet the person who dreamed up the
    "take your daughter to work" idea had a son between the ages
    of 6 and 11 and probably learned the hard way why a "take
    your child to work day" might not be such a great idea! :-)
    
    It's like going to Discovery Zone or Chucky Cheese... you
    can tell the parents that are having a birthday party for
    a boy and which ones are having the birthday for a girl.
    The ones with the girls are sane, normal looking people.
    The ones with the boys look like Jack Nicholson in the
    Shining!
    
    -b

    
    or a "take your cactus to work day" They are well behaved, quiet, and
    need very little water. MHO
    
    Mark

	can people w/o children bring their pets?
	
	--> take your fur-faces to work day ??

      <<< Note 333.2 by MPGS::MARKEY "Send John Thomas some doughnuts" >>>

>    Out of spite to what Jack? To those that look on this as a
>    chance to spend a day with their daughter? 
    
    	I spent a great day with my daughter last week -- on my day
    	off.  I don't know why my employer should pay my wages for
    	the day if I'm going to be spending it with my daughter (or
    	son) instead of spending it with my work.
    
.10>    I can picture my daughter managing to keep herself reasonably
>    quiet and entertained if I brought her here a lot easier than
>    I could picture my son doing it. 
    
    	This is also not the purpose of the day.  It is supposed to
    	be a day where your daughter gets to see what you do -- hands-
    	on if possible -- and get some exposure to things she might
    	want to aspire to.  It is not to see if she can be entertained
    	with a coloring book or a computer game.  You can set her up
    	with that and ignore her at home just as well!
    
    	Jack's concern with this program is clear, and has been for
    	the past few years whenever it comes up -- it is discriminatory.

    Unfortunately, the motivation for this "event" has far more to
    do with exclusionary feminism (pardon the redundancy) than it
    does with the relative behaviors of boys and girls.
    
    Any hand-waved justification for this event falls apart under
    even the slightest logical scrutiny.  Of course, the very attempt
    to apply logical scrutiny to this "event" is typically attacked
    as a display of vicious sexism, so one might as well not bother,
    at least not publicly.
    
    I'll only trust myself to say this:  I and other parents have
    observed the results of this preferential treatment, and it actually
    serves to increase the level of bitterness between boys and girls.
    When these boys grow up, I doubt they'll forget the lessons that
    modern society has taught them, when they were made to feel
    "second class" at a younger, more sensitive stage in their lives.
    
    Chris

    
    What day is this fiasco taking place this year?
    
    
    					     Thanks
    
    							Hank

    I think only daughters of between 16 and 18 should be allowed in. 
    
    As only at that age,could they get a true grasp of the pressures and
    responsibilites of a working enviroment.
    
    Any younger than that,and i`d be labelled a pervert. ho!ho!
     

    >	I spent a great day with my daughter last week -- on my day
    >	off.  I don't know why my employer should pay my wages for
    >	the day if I'm going to be spending it with my daughter (or
    >	son) instead of spending it with my work.
    
    My kids have expressed to me many times the desire to be with
    me, regardless of activity. I spend as much time as I possibly
    can with them. With the day in question, I get to add another
    day to the total, and see that as a good thing.
    
    >	This is also not the purpose of the day.  It is supposed to
    >	be a day where your daughter gets to see what you do -- hands-
    >	on if possible -- and get some exposure to things she might
    >	want to aspire to.  It is not to see if she can be entertained
    >	with a coloring book or a computer game.  You can set her up
    >	with that and ignore her at home just as well!
    
    I do a large part of my work at my business office, since Digital
    is but one of a handful of companies I have as clients. Both my
    children spend a great deal of time with me there, especially
    when I'm working on multimedia title development (they enjoy
    helping scan graphics, do animations, record voice-overs, etc.
    etc.). On the other hand, what I'm doing here at Digital would
    be very boring to them (software development in C++) because
    driver debugging is just not one of the pulse pounding activities.
    But, I would like the chance to have the kids with me just
    to be able to talk to them as time permits...
    
    I know I'm not the classic model of what this day is supposed to
    be all about, but so what. I can take my little honey to work
    and sit her down next to me and just enjoy that she's there,
    without getting all up-tight about the political ramifications
    of it all. Besides, she's pretty as a picture (mostly her
    mother's doing) and I sure love showing her off...
    
    -b

  I think it's a great idea to let little kids come to work at DEC. It's the
one chance we get have someone who actually understands these dam computers
show us how they work. 

  George

 re .21


 :-)

    Re: .1
    
    >Just out of spite
    
    Just out of spite, you're going to let your daughter go hungry, deprive
    her of sleep, and risk diaper rash.  Gosh, what a great dad you are.

    >I think there should be a separate "Take Our Sons To Work Day".  I
    >don't think they should be lumped together.
    
     This is the best solution because it solves the fairness issue AND the
    inter-gender interaction issue as well.

    Okay Chelsea:
    
    I'll bipass getting my daughter involved and just eat alot of baked
    beans like Mongo did on Blazing Saddles!
    
    -Jack

    
    
    
    Good one, George. :')
    
    
    
    Mike

    >> This is the best solution because it solves the fairness issue AND the
    >> inter-gender interaction issue as well.
    
    What is the inter-gender interaction issue?  They get along just
    fine on field trips, various classroom activities, and even as
    friends outside of school.
    
    I'd like to see it all in one "Take Our Kids To Work Day", because
    if it's split up by gender, it still provides plenty of opportunity
    for the social engineers to deliver their gender-biased propaganda
    in messages explicitly designed to be heard by one gender of kids
    and not the other.  Let them all hear the same thing.  Better yet,
    let them hear nothing at all from "organizers", and just let us
    have a common day to simply bring them in without any speeches or
    official activities of any kind.  We know what to say to our own kids
    about the working world, we don't need any self-proclaimed experts
    telling them how to think.
    
    Chris

    
    
    	I was reading something recently (somewhere on the net but
    	don't remember where) that stated the reason it's preferred
    	to have the genders separate is because when the boys are around
    	the girls tend not to take the initiative.  They just stand back
    	and watch while the boys do the interactive stuff.
    
    	When the girls are by themselves, they become more involved.
    
    

>>          <<< Note 333.28 by GOOEY::JUDY "That's Ms. Bitch to you!" >>>

    So there is a "Take Our Sons to Work Day" then?
    

    Don't let my wife find out.  She'll have all four of our daughters
    loaded up in the van before I get up on the designated "Daughters" day. 
    Besides, I'm not too sure that I want them exposed to government
    contracts at such a tender age!
    
    Dan

    >So there is a "Take Our Sons to Work Day" then?
    
     In some companies, yes (US West, I think, is one.)

    
    
    	Yes, some of them do also have a "Take Your Sons to Work Day"
    	it's just not the same day as the daughters one....
    

	Cast another vote for "Take our *Kids* to Work" day.

	Signed,
	Mother-of-son-who'd-like-to-come-in-and-see-what's-
	happening-too

  	
    >--> take your fur-faces to work day ??
    
    Yes!  Yes!  I'd like to bring my bebbes in for a day.  Othello will
    hide under the desk, Pamina will play with everything in sight, and 
    Fargas will sleep on my lap all day. 

    
    >I'll only trust myself to say this:  I and other parents have
    >observed the results of this preferential treatment, and it actually
    >serves to increase the level of bitterness between boys and girls.
    >When these boys grow up, I doubt they'll forget the lessons that
    >modern society has taught them, when they were made to feel
    >"second class" at a younger, more sensitive stage in their lives.
     
    So in other words, when these boys become men, they'll feel just like 
    women do currently?
    

  I don't think it would be such a good idea to bring my cat.

    
    >What is the inter-gender interaction issue?  They get along just
    >fine on field trips, various classroom activities, and even as
    >friends outside of school.
    
    Boys are more assertive and aggressive, in general.  As Judy mentioned,
    a general observation of a mixed group shows that the boys do most of
    the "doing" while the girls do most of the "watching".  When girls
    are alone, they are much more likely to "do".  I don't know why.  It's
    a social thing, I guess.  
                              
    >Better yet,
    >let them hear nothing at all from "organizers", and just let us
    >have a common day to simply bring them in without any speeches or
    >official activities of any kind.  We know what to say to our own kids
    >about the working world, we don't need any self-proclaimed experts
    >telling them how to think.
     
    Well, yes, but I don't think we need to set aside a specific day for
    this, do you?  My dad used to take me to his office all the time.  I 
    think the point of a specific day is so that speeches, demonstrations, 
    presentations, official activities, etc., CAN occur.  And in that case
    I would prefer two separate days with identical programmes.
    
    I don't have children, before anyone asks.  
                              

Jim,

If you have men's/women's rooms in your facility with
showers for the lunchtime joggers, DO NOT bring the
cat.  She'll go in and peek at everyone! (As well as
try to leave voicemail.)

    Ms. Deb, you're on to something.  I think I should be allowed to
    bring my 4 "babies" into work also, afterall they are surrogate
    kids (I would have had the real kind if able).
    
    Lessee, Buttons (the enforcer) would bark loudly and keep all
    attackers away, Buffy (the couch potato) would sit on my lap,
    Bonkers....well she'd drive everyone bonkers themselves.  Peanut
    could pose a problem; she's not content to sit in a teacup all
    day and she could get smushed if someone stepped on her.
    
    

You folks who want to bring your pets -- is it so they can aspire to work
for Digital?

RE:     <<< Note 333.38 by SUBPAC::JJENSEN "The Short-timer Fishing Widow" >>>


>If you have men's/women's rooms in your facility with
>showers for the lunchtime joggers, DO NOT bring the
>cat.  She'll go in and peek at everyone! (As well as
>try to leave voicemail.)


 We do, and I won't ;-)

    Re: .34
    
    Your three sound like mine.  Valentina would hide (perhaps on one of
    the shelves, perhaps in a box), Zoe would accost every passerby and
    demand they dangle the fish about for her, and Thea would crawl into my
    lap and require a tummy rub.  I don't want to think about where the
    litterbox would go, though.

    
    >> So in other words, when these boys become men, they'll feel just like 
    >> women do currently?
    
    Yes, and is this desirable?  I think not...
    See the AA note for analogous side-effects.
    
    If we've learned anything from "the old days", it should be that
    people feel badly, embittered, etc., when they're treated in a
    second-class manner.  If we start treating everyone equally,
    then everyone will feel like they're on a level playing field,
    and no one will ever have any reason to feel oppressed.
    
    This should be the objective we all work toward.  This "now it's
    my turn, heh-heh" approach is only making things worse.  Why foster
    an environment of polarization and special treatment?
    
    Chris

    Re: taking daughters to work
    
    Here's the deal:  numerous studies have shown that girls suffer a large
    drop in self-esteem around puberty (larger than boys), that they become
    more passive and that they receive less attention in mixed classroom
    environments.  They fall behind in math and sciences.  They are less
    likely to aim for careers involving math and science.
    
    Now, given this situation, how do you propose to remedy it without
    paying more attention to girls?  How do you propose to remedy it
    without giving _different_ attention to girls?

After they don't the attention when they go out in the real world, what
will happen to their self-esteem?

ME

    >Yes, and is this desirable?  I think not...
    >See the AA note for analogous side-effects.
     
    Oh, I never said it was _desirable_, Chris.  Your note just sounded to
    me like you thought this was something new and terrible, and I was
    pointing out that it's old hat for many.  I'm glad my misconception was
    cleared up.

    >> Boys are more assertive and aggressive, in general.  As Judy mentioned,
    >> a general observation of a mixed group shows that the boys do most of
    >> the "doing" while the girls do most of the "watching".  When girls
    >> are alone, they are much more likely to "do".  I don't know why.  It's
    >> a social thing, I guess.  
    
    That used to be true 10-20 years ago, but that's not what we're
    seeing in the schools today.  At least in our schools, the girl
    students are just as much aggressive "doers" as the boys.
    Sometimes, moreso.  The social changes over the last couple of
    decades have had some positive effect, at least in our areas.
    
    Besides, it's "healthier" to keep boys and girls in a mixed
    environment, whether in school or in a play/social environment.
    It's more like the real world.  I wouldn't want to keep boys and
    girls segregated in general, even if it did help girls be more
    "doers" in the short term... what would happen someday when they
    had to go into the real world?  Boys and girls might as well learn
    to get along well together when they're kids.  Girls should be
    encouraged to be equally assertive and aggressive accomplishers
    in a "natural" environment.
    
    
    >> Well, yes, but I don't think we need to set aside a specific day for
    >> this, do you?  
    
    Nope, thus the title of my earlier reply.  I brought my kids in lots
    of times when they were younger.  But then, I don't think that speeches,
    demonstrations, official activities, etc., are necessary or even
    desirable.  What's the point of such things?  What's the agenda?
    Pardon my paranoia, but I've lived with many years of "official"
    school-type people trying to tell my kids what to think about a
    wide variety of things, so I'm naturally suspicious when people
    want to control and organize dissemination of information to kids.
    
    I'm also suspicious about whether the programs would honestly be
    identical if there were separate gender days.  More paranoia... :-)
    
    This gender split occurs nowhere else in the kid's lives.  Not in
    class, not in school activities, not on field trips, not even in
    the town baseball league.  Any argument put forward to gender-split
    them for "Bring your * to work day" could also be applied to these
    other areas, where its shortcomings become more apparent.
    
    Chris

    Having trouble catching up here...
    
    re: .44
    
    How recent are these studies?  I still find this hard to accept
    given what I've seen in the schools today.
    
    Even if one is to accept these studies as valid in today's
    environment (and I don't, but just for the sake of seeing
    this through), there must be a better way to address it than
    to have highly-publicized "special days", "special events"
    programs, etc., that are so obviously offensive to the kids
    that are "left out".
    
    I don't have any quick alternatives, but that doesn't validate
    the current methods.
    
    Chris

If I brought my cats to work:

Sarah would find the highest place in the office, that
no cat should conceivably be able to jump to, and proceed
to jump to it, curl up in a ball, and go to sleep.

Willie would lie down on whatever I was working on.  If
I was typing, he'd walk across the keyboard.  If I shoo'ed
him off, he'd jump back up and lie down on it again.

Muko would "talk" to everyone that went by and inspect
them for remnants of food.  If someone gave him food, he'd
eat it, then forget that he'd eaten it, and ask the next
person for food.

    
    
    	Chloe would hide in a corner.  Unless I brought catnip with
    	me, then she'd roll around on the floor sounding like a tribble
    	on speed.
    
    	Sasha would be jumping on everything and trying to find a way up 
    	to the top of the wall of the cubicle so she could walk along
    	it.
    
    	Audrey would find the sunniest spot and lie down.  Until someone
    	walked by then she'd open her eyes and give her best siamese
    	cry for attention.
    

	How much attention will they get while they're at their parent's 
workplace?  Some parents probably have important stuff to do.

ME

RE:     <<< Note 333.49 by SUBPAC::JJENSEN "The Short-timer Fishing Widow" >>>


>Willie would lie down on whatever I was working on.  If
>I was typing, he'd walk across the keyboard.  If I shoo'ed
>him off, he'd jump back up and lie down on it again.


 This is what my cat would do..each morning I sit at my kitchen table to 
 read the paper whilst drinking a cup of coffee..I lay the paper out,
 turn to get my coffee..and there she is, plopped right down on the paper.
 She hasn't walked on my keyboard lately, however.


 Jim

    Now that I think of it, the other thing Willie would do is
    clear my desk of any loose pens, pencils, post-it pads,
    and other item within a paw's reach.  Then he'd find a
    tiny crevice at floor level and jam everything in there.
    
    Many small items have vanished in our house...  can't
    figure out *where* he's stashed the stuff.
    
    Signed,
    Puzzled Cat Mother
    

  I'm missing a number of things around here as well..Tasha's mission in life
  is to see that anything that is on a table,desk,nightstand, etc winds up
  on the floor, and she doesn't seem to be too concerned with what havoc
  she wreaks in the process of performing said mission.

    If you have a cat and floor heating vents, check out the vents for any
    lost items, my daughter had to catch one of our cats dropping a gold
    chain  down the vent before we realized where all her jewelry was
    going.
    
    joan

    Reminds me of the problem that was caused in many households by mommy
    or daddy installing the "Oscar the Grouch" INIT in early Mac
    environments.  Whenever you would put a file in the trashcan, out would
    pop li'l Oscar who would sing "O I Love Trash!", real cutesypoo.
    
    Mommy or Daddy would come home to empty disks, because kiddies would
    want to make Oscar sing a LOT.
    
    Question:  Kids are under verbal control, more or less; and in any case
    they most likely outgrow that phase.  How do you folks tolerate having
    these dimbulb animyules around who will, e.g., drop things of value
    down grates just to enjoy the sound, or for the mindless hoarding
    instinct, or for the random satisfaction of whatever atavistic urges
    are created by the random twitterings of the seven-or-so functional
    neurons in their otherwise empty brainpans?  It's totally beyond me.
    

    
    Oh, Dr.Dan, you wound me to the quick, yes you do.
        
    Dimbulb animyules, indeed.  Fargas reaches one paw up from my lap and
    gesticulates rudely at you.
    
    I love my three furfaces.  I don't care how many times I have to pull
    the bookcase out and remove their stash.

    Ah well, the unquestioned value is the devalued value; so happy that
    your love for yer dimbulb animyules survives my heartless japes.  One
    can only assume that they serve some useful purpose, perhaps such as
    keeping you aware of current trends in rude gesticulation, or p'raps
    lap-pawing.
    
    Carry on! ...
    
    |-{:-)
    

    
    
    
    All this self esteem stuff is interesting.  I think it stems from
    people putting too much emphasis on what someone does for a living
    instead of just being a good person.  When it all comes down to it,
    that is what counts.  Anyone who looks down on someone for the job they
    have, I feel sorry for.  You see it's these people who are trying to
    make themselves appear better at someone elses expense because they
    don't feel very good about themselves.  Teach your sons and daughters
    to be a kind and loving person.  This will serve them well their whole
    lives through.
    
    
    Mike  
    
    
    

    
    
    	Amen Mike. 
    
    

    Re: .55
    
    >check out the vents for any lost items
    
    Thea has these golfball-sized pom-pom balls she plays soccer with.  She
    used to lose them at an enormous rate, and I didn't know where.  Then
    one day something clicked.  I think I pulled two-dozen out of one of
    the vents; I have no idea how many are still down there.

    Re: .47
    
    >it's "healthier" to keep boys and girls in a mixed environment
    
    I would say that for the most part, they should be mixed.  However,
    it's probably useful for them to have some time separated (it doesn't
    have to be on a regular basis) to deal with issues of being a boy or a
    girl.  (This used to be accomplished through shop and home ec
    classes....)  I expect both boys and girls would find it easier to talk
    about some things without the others around.
    
    As for assertiveness, it might be useful to give girls a chance to do
    on their own for a while and then mix them back in again.  Perhaps this
    would make them less likely to defer to boys when it came to doing.
    
    As far as the studies go, they would be from the last five years or so,
    I expect.

	>>Teach your sons and daughters
	>>to be a kind and loving person.  This will serve them 
	>>well their whole lives through.
    
    
    Mike ,

	Nicely said, however these are not the values rewarded
	in the corporate/business world.  

	Somewhere along the line, they will be taught how to survive
	in that world - and it's very different than being a kind 
	and loving person.    I've been at it for some time now,
	and I still don't get it.

	Pat
    
    
    

    .63
    
    i beg to differ with your sentiments. in my humble experience, nice
    guys/gals get their rewards eventually and nasty ones their
    come-uppence in the business world as in any other sphere of activity.
    most senior people i meet are *nice* people. most middle and junior
    people who are stuck and not getting promotions are not nice people.
    
    don't lead the youngsters astray by telling them otherwise !
    
    ric

    
      If I see one more person come back from "assertiveness" training,
     I'll scream.
    
      We need the opposite - National Humility Training, particularly
     required for managers.
    
      bb

re: .62
    
    >> (This used to be accomplished through shop and home ec
    >> classes....) 
    
    Or more likely, gym class once beyond elementary school.  All
    we ever got out of shop class were misshapen wood projects and
    an occasional bump when the macho shop teacher clobbered me with
    the nearest available wood when we misbehaved.
    
    
    >> As for assertiveness, it might be useful to give girls a chance to do
    >> on their own for a while and then mix them back in again.  Perhaps this
    >> would make them less likely to defer to boys when it came to doing.
    
    Fair enough... we need to be careful that both groups don't misuse
    it as an occasion to further polarize things, and that both groups
    come away with no less respect for the others.
    
    
    re: .51
    
	>> How much attention will they get while they're at their parent's 
	>> workplace?  Some parents probably have important stuff to do.
    
    I always take a vacation day when I bring my kids in (and make sure
    that everyone knows it), so that I don't feel like I'm taking anything
    away from the company by basically taking a work day and playing with
    the kids (and so that this doesn't occur to my coworkers either!).
    
    Doesn't always work out, though.  One time something urgent came up
    and I spent most of the "vacation day" hard at work while my kid
    cleaned the office for me (something he enjoys doing for some unknown
    reason).  So that worked out pretty well, too...
    
    Chris

    Re: niceness and business
    
    It isn't "nice" to tell everyone everything you've accomplished.  It
    isn't "nice" to talk about money.  It isn't "nice" to get into
    arguments.  It isn't "nice" to criticize others.
    
    In business, you'd better be ready to claim credit for what you've
    done, to stand up for your opinions, and to tell people when they need
    to be doing better.

    Personally, I'd like to see it be "Take Our Children to Work Day", and
    have to agree that (at least!!) age 7 or better would be correct.  Age
    9 is probably pretty solid, in that a 5 or 6 year old (including mine)
    would have minimal curiousity about what Mom or Dad *does* in the
    office, and maximum curiousity about who sits in the next cube, where
    the snack machine (or cafeteria for you GMA-ers!) is, what time lunch
    break starts, and where the dry markers & white board are kept.  
    
    While I understand the original reasoning behind taking daughters to
    work, which was to expose them in a positive way to more professional
    atmospheres, I can't see that this singling out of one gender does any
    good.  I think that all children should be allowed to spend a little
    time with Mom or Dad at their workplace now and then.  It helps them
    understand their parents more, and develop more respect for what they
    do.
    
    So it goes with my little guy (soon to be 7), who has come to
    work with me once every few months for about 2 hours per visit since 
    he was about 2.5 years.  I always felt it helped him to feel less left 
    out and less abandoned if he knew where I sat, what my desk looked like, 
    who my neighbors were, etc.  He used to watch me work for about 30-45 
    minutes (maximum!!) and then he wants to wander or to color, do 
    homework, etc.  Luckily, my particular field office is nice about 
    kids, provided they aren't here all the time, and that they are 
    reasonably quiet.  
    
    My husband, a heavy equipment mechanic, does not have the ability to
    take Joe in to work on a normal day, due to the physical dangers of the
    shop.  Whenever they have a chance, he *will* take Joe in on a vacation
    or weekend day, when Dad won't be distracted, and shows him around --
    Joe sees what Dad's been working on lately, what the other people in
    the shop do, etc.  
    
    It's good for the child, it's good for the parent.  Gender is not
    important, the purpose of the visit and the time spent doing it are.
    
    M.
    
    
    

    >It isn't "nice" to tell everyone everything you've accomplished.  It
    >isn't "nice" to talk about money.  It isn't "nice" to get into
    >arguments.  It isn't "nice" to criticize others.
    
    agreed. you do not have to do any of these things to succeed.
    
    >In business, you'd better be ready to claim credit for what you've
    >done, 
    
    no, you'll get what you're due eventually.
    
    >to stand up for your opinions, and to tell people when they need
    >to be doing better.

    you can do these in a nice way or a nasty way, in case you hadn't
    realised.
    
    all imho.
    
    ric

    Re: .69
    
    >no, you'll get what you're due eventually.
    
    Quite a dreamworld you have there.
    
    >you can do these in a nice way or a nasty way
    
    De seguro.  But I wasn't talking about the how, but the what.

    >Quite a dreamworld you have there.
    
    yup and i'm enjoying living it
    
    ric

    
    
    TTLT: Protesting 'Bring Your Daughter to Work Day' by bringing
    my oldest son to work with me today.  I think it is important
    that our 'children' have an understanding of what their mothers
    do, not just our daughters.  I have no problem with daughters
    having a special day.  I do feel however, that there should also
    be a sons day.  Isn't that what equal rights is all about?
    
    Equal rights shouldn't mean giving more rights to women than men.
    It should mean exactly what it says.
    
    This coming from a woman.
    
    Terrie
    

    
    
    good for you, terrie...
    
    all along i have said pretty much the same thing...i don't think this
    should be restricted to just daughters (unless, at another date on the
    calendar, they have a son's day).  they seem to push this as giving girls a
    chance to see that women can make it in the workforce.  no kidding??? 
    i can see if they had something like this back in the 60's or 70's or
    even part of the 80's, but now??  i think it is pretty well known they
    women can get to where they want to go (granted, it may take them a
    little longer, not necessarily due to any fault of her own). 
    therefore, i think this day should be a children's day...
    
    
    

    
    Well done Terrie
    
    I'd also like to point out that this is also being discussed
    in the Digital notes conference. 
    
    One note in that string from a mother with both a son and daughter
    stands out in particular. Great reading.
    
    							Hank

It's also being discussed in quark::mennotes.  168.28 there is a hoot.

    There were about 10 boys and 40 or so girls at the festivities
    here... my daughter Jennifer among them. If I'm still around
    next year, I might take David.

    While I applaud Terrie for her decision, I'm still rather
    ambivalent regarding whether it's just girls, or girls and
    boys. Seems to me that there's a world full of things to
    be on about, and this is one of the rare ones (for me)
    where I hold no opinion either way...

    -b

Well, all I can say is, I'd best better not be stumbling over a bunch of
rug rats here at ZKO, today. We've got a business to run here for cryin'
out loud, in case nobody noticed.


{heh,heh,heh}

    big applause for you, Terrie!
    
    Chip

    It should be striktly restricted to girls aged between 16-22 only.
    
    And no fat `uns either.
    

    	Should stay-at-home mothers be exposing their daughters to that 
    	environment under the "Take your daughters to work" banner?

    exposing daughters? pretty disgusting and i refuse to participate!
    
    :-)

Didn't the Spartans expose their daughters?

    re .80
    
    
            Should stay-at-home mothers be exposing their daughters to that
            environment under the "Take your daughters to work" banner?
    
    
    Joe, since housework is underpaid, undervalued, and often dehumanized,
    if the full-time at-home parent is proud and feeling rewarded in his or
    her career at home, why not?  
    
    unless of course you don't consider homemaking work or a career.  My
    feminist mother did, but encouraged her daughters to be able to work at
    a living wage outside the home, as well, because she recognized the
    dangers of depending on another person for home hearth and food.  She
    also taught her son to cook, clean house, sew, and care for children.
    
    meg

    They had the usual "what do you want to be when you grow up?"
    thing at today's DYDTWD festivities. There was the usual nurse,
    doctor, teacher stuff... an anthropologist, a writer a
    poet, but my personal favorite was the 8 year old boy (I'm
    guessing) who answered the question with:

    "I want to go to college on the GI bill and open a car dealership".

    -b

	i just saw someone skipping in the hallway.  i think there
	might be a correlation between that sighting and this "take
	our daughters to work day" thing.  this is merely a hunch,
	mind you.

 Skipping in the hallway?

>> Skipping in the hallway?


	um, yes.  skipping.  
	in the hallway.

    
    	Was it a daughter, skipping because she's content?
    
    	A mother, skipping because her daughter was content?
    
    	Personnel, skipping because the event was perceived as a success?
    
    	Generic employee, skipping because [s]he's leaving for a long
    	weekend?
    
    	The mind boggles.
    

    A sick daughter skipping because she was incontinent?

   .88   these are all good questions, shawn, and would that i knew
         the answers.  
 
	 as it happens, i was quite alarmed and thus averted my
	 eyes, passing up a chance to study the individual.

 What exactly was the person skipping?  Lunch? Break?  and, was it one of
 the hallway walkers?




 

    
    re: .90
    
    You were alarmed by someone skipping???
    
     Remind me to never come up behind you and yell "Guess who??"
    
    
    
    
    
     Although you might guess right away by the snoring...
    

    
>>    You were alarmed by someone skipping???

	er, i was just kidding, andrew dearest.

    
    
    Ummmmmmmm... Sorry (tm)
    

    
    I've skipped in the hallways before.  You can ask Raquel 8^).
    
    Are you sure it wasn't me you saw?

    
    
    YES SHE HAS...

> From New York: It's high tide on Broadway ... it's THE TOP TEN
  LIST for Thursday, April 27, 1995.  And now, a man who hopes
  someone will pinch him ... David Letterman!
 
> From the home office in Sioux City, Iowa ...
 
TOP TEN THINGS OVERHEARD ON "TAKE OUR DAUGHTERS TO WORK" DAY
 
10. "Over-ruled, Mr. Shapiro -- Ms. Clark's daughter may conduct
    the cross-examination"
 
 9. "...And over there is the mud we wrestle in"
 
 8. "Who would have guessed that Richard Simmons had a daughter?"
 
 7. Insert your own Woody Allen joke here
 
 6. "Let me get this straight...now Chelsea's in charge?"
 
 5. "Hurry up, sweetie. Just cock the hammer and fire at the bad guy"
 
 4. "Okay, the final score is Mets daughters 8, Mets 0"
 
 3. "Judge Ito, your daughter has such a lovely beard"
 
 2. "I can't believe Letterman made all his kids put on that
    horrible clown makeup"
 
 1. "I don't wanna go to CBS! I wanna go home!"
 
            [Music: "Fire" by the Ohio Players]
 
 
Compiled by Sue Trowbridge
 
          ----------------------------------------
               LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN
               11:35 p.m. ET/PT (10:35 CT/MT)
               on the CBS Television Network
          ----------------------------------------
 
             On Friday's show, Dave welcomes
 
             ...boxer GEORGE FOREMAN
             ...actress PENELOPE ANN MILLER
 
 
This list is sponsored by Yoyodyne Entertainment, Inc. We are also
responsible for games of skill via email. For more information on our games
write to [email protected].
 
The Top Ten List is Copyright (C) 1995 Worldwide Pants, Incorporated.
Used with permission.
 
The latest Top Ten can be retrieved at any time by sending e-mail
to [email protected]
 
To leave the list, mail [email protected] with the message
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To retrieve old Top Tens, mail same with the message GET TOPTEN ARCHIVE

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    Some people at Digital went through quite a bit of effort to make
    it a good day for the kids yesterday, and I appreciate it.
    My daughter had a great time, and so did the other kids I spoke
    with. Job well done!
    
    I just hope they kept a keen eye on those letters the kids were
    writing to Bob Palmer. I can just see it now:
    
    Dear Mr. Palmer,
    
    My daddy (mommy) says you're a ...
    
    Sincerely yours,
    (insert name of underage dependent of former Digital employee)
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    -b

    	Read a news brief that a guy took his daughter to work on TYDTW
    	day, and as chance would have it, it was the day that his company
    	decided to give him his downsizing notice.  Daughter REALLY got
    	a taste of what the working world is like!  The company, which
    	has been going through downsizing for some time now (sounds like
    	DEC, but it wasn't) expressed regret at the timing.

    Glen's Back!!!!!!!

	ok, Jack, what about my back?

    You got one!

	Yes I do!

    Thanks!

you can't have it

I guess this is as good a topic as any.  I brought my daughters' _pictures_
to work today.  They're outside my cubicle, ZKO2-3/N87 (straight back from
the Wirth conference room).

       
       Now, Gerald, lots of mazel and all that, and Dina and Shoshona are
       absolutely adorable, and you have every reason to be beaming and
       proud, and we're happy to share in your joy.  
       
       Do keep in mind, though, that this is Soapbox, and insufferability
       arrives suddenly and without notice.
       
       --Mr Topaz

	Gerald, do you have scanner capabilities? It would be great if you
could add them to a homepage!

    
    This reminds me...a local teachers' union just passed a resolution
    asking their membership NOT to cooperate with the local `Take Our
    Kids To Work' program, claiming that it was too influenced by big
    business and corporate interests.  The union believes that the kids
    should spend the day at local food banks, hospitals, and gov't offices.
    
    A local columnist quipped:  "Why not just take the kids down to the 
    welfare office and show them how to fill out the forms?"
    

    Here's a novel thought:  Have the kids spend the day in school.
    
    Have the various Take Your * To Work events during a school break so it
    doesn't interfere with school.
    
    Bob
    

    Aside from the boys' hurt feelings and subsequent bitterness at being
    excluded from this, further dividing the genders (a happy side effect,
    eh?), the boys also claim it's unfair that the girls get a "Get Out
    of School Free" card for a day.  If this must be done at all, it should
    be done in the summer.
    
    I love the "fill out the forms" line.  Sounds like Howie...
    
    Chris

    
    I'd like to see Gerald's daughters 8^/.
    
    

Why don't you come up and, see us some time?

       
       And be sure to dress up in white owl garb.

    
    Well, I just might do that.  I just might.
    
    

    
    
    re: white owl...
    
    Hey mz_deb!!! There's an idea for next year!!! ;)
    

Somewhat interesting discussion on this going on in 3520 in 
VMSZOO::NEW_HAMPSHIRE.

  I don't understand what would be simpler or more elegant
  about setting up a TOSTW day as opposed to just changing the
  TODTW day to a TOKTW day.

    
    You know the answer to this already.  At a certain point in their
    lives, either girls start deferring to boys or boys start running
    rampant over girls, I don't know which it is or if it's a combination
    of both.  Make it a TOKTW day, and the girls will all be in the back of
    the room listening quietly while the boys push to the front and play on 
    the computers, ask the questions, bla bla bla.
    
    What's the use?
     

>    You know the answer to this already.  At a certain point in their
>    lives, either girls start deferring to boys or boys start running
>    rampant over girls, I don't know which it is or if it's a combination
>    of both.

Di, you're a former girl.  Is this what happened to you?

    
    	RE: Deb
    
    	I didn't realize that the lack of a penis had such a traumatic
    	effect on a girl.
    

>Di, you're a former girl.  Is this what happened to you?

	I remember deferring to just about everyone when I 
	was a young girl.  But I wasn't a young girl during the
	'80s or '90s, so I can't assume that the same rules of
	engagement apply now. 

	Contrary to popular belief, I still don't see the
	problem with having a TOKTW day. 

    .120  one special day for the girls, one for the boys.
    
          because the girls would not lose out on something 
          specifically created for them.  and the boys would have
          their own day.  
    
          i really never understood all the uproar over TODTW day.
            

    Mz. Debra:
    
    I have a two year old daughter and she has a ways to go.
    
    I can tell you against popular opinion that she WILL be encouraged to
    excell in life, to become self sufficient, and be the best at whatever
    she wants to do.   I as a father have every intention of helping her
    right along!
    
    I will say over the last few years, and especially since having a
    daughter it has really hit home that there are stereotypes that need to
    be broken...and yes, some of them I am working on myself.  (I just
    don't believe I need a New Age priest/priestess from the Cambridge think 
    tank helping me.)  
    
    They used to have a ropes course behind the Burlington facility.  It
    built up team thinking and it was quite an intriguing two days.  There
    was a particular obstacle where our team had to get across the
    alligator pit.  We had 20 minutes to get everybody across.  In the
    short end of it...
    
    -It was a very difficult obstacle to overcome.
    -We beat our head 15 minutes trying to figure it out.
    -Our instructor, a older gentleman with a grey beard at the end of the
    thirty minutes RAILED us guys up and down each side.  We blatently
    disregarded input from the three women on the team.  I will never
    forget that experience.  A practical application for learning...
    
    (Glen, this is what I mean...it isn't the course so much as the
    structure of it...take notes here and tell somebody!)
    
    Anyway Mz. Debra, it was a very interesting learning experience.   

  If I had a daughter, and she asked me why there were separate days
  for girls and boys, I wouldn't want to tell her, "Well, dear, you
  know that if we combined them, the boys would run roughshod over you,
  you poor thing."  What kind of a message would that send?  Why
  reinforce any sort of distinction based on fear of unfair treatment?

    
    And what do you tell her when she comes home after TOKTW day and says
    "Mom, it sucked - I didn't get to play on the computers, and nobody
    listened to my questions, because the boys got all the attention.  I
    guess I'm not worth anything, huh?"
    

  .128  I don't assume that that would happen, but if it did, it would
	be my fault or the fault of her father, not the fault of 
	having a gender-neutral event.

 Z   "Mom, it sucked - I didn't get to play on the computers, and nobody
 Z   listened to my questions, because the boys got all the attention. 
 Z   I guess I'm not worth anything, huh?"
    
    What Di said.  You're making an assumption here and without realizing
    it, you have just made my case that preferential treatment fosters
    suspicion throughout both genders.
    
    -Jack

    i would tell a daughter the brief history of todtw day...
    its origins, who worked for it and made it happen.  
    
    then i would let her know that the boy's day was a good
    idea also, but that her day was preserved for her.

 Z   i would tell a daughter the brief history of todtw day...
 Z   its origins, who worked for it and made it happen.
    
    No, don't do this.  Why cloud her mind with that?  Bring her in and get
    right into career opportunities.  
    
    Sorry but I believe this quote sums it well...
    
    "Those who look back after putting their hands to the till are not
     worthy of the kingdom of God"
    
    Why on earth would you want to plant a seed of divisiveness in her
    mind?  You're simply going to continue the cycle of suspicion that way.
    Get right in there without any victim overtones.
    
    -Jack
    

    
>    i'm for all the people who get so upset about
>    TODTW day organizing a TOSTW day.  that would
>    be the simplest, most elegant solution.
    
    I think it is great that Ms Magazine(?) came up with this idea that
    promotes their interest.  (Although I'd agrue having boys seeing 
    women work is at least as valuable as girls seeing women work).
    
    However Digital as an employeer is in a different position IMO and
    should ensure sexes are treated equally.  Would you have the same
    reaction if "Take-your-son-to-work-day" had come first?  You'd say 
    kudos to "Mr. Magazine" and kudos for Digital for allowing TYSTW day
    despite the fact it excluded girls?
    
    Personally I'd expect Digital to include the girls also just as I now
    expect Digital to include the boys also.
    
    Greg
                                                      

    |Why cloud her mind with that? 
    
    with what?  the truth?

    
    	There was a "Dilbert" or "Robotman" comic with the "rope drill"
    	where they had to get across some sort of waterway using only a
    	rope.
    
    	So they pounced on the instructor, tied him up with the rope,
    	laid him across the waterway and walked right over him.  8^)
    

>    You know the answer to this already.  At a certain point in their
>    lives, either girls start deferring to boys or boys start running
>    rampant over girls, I don't know which it is or if it's a combination
>    of both.  Make it a TOKTW day, and the girls will all be in the back of
>    the room listening quietly while the boys push to the front and play on 
>    the computers, ask the questions, bla bla bla.
    
strange, that; when I was at school, I saw a complete reversal of the genders 
in this respect.  I don't doubt the possibility that this was deliberately 
engineered, but it still irritates me nontheless.

Chris.

    Mz_Deb is cranky! alert.
    
    
    cranky...
    
    cranky...
    
    cranky...
    
    cranky...
    
    cranky...

I'm a little confused here ...

Is it not known that there are physiological differences between human males
and females beyond the obvious (wonderful) physical differences, i.e., 
definite minor differences in brain structure? We talk about cultural
stereotypes, but are we so obsessed with PC that we ignore certain inherent
behavioral tendencies in the two groups?

I am not a parent, but my limited experience with children suggests to me that
the greater degree (as a group) of agressiveness in boys is so marked that it
cannot be entirely cultural (so maybe I have a knack for the obvious :-} ).

No need to pass judgement on whose characteristics are "best", each group
has its strengths and weaknesses, and trying to force-fit one approach to
"training" both groups seems like one or the other will have the advantage.
If cultural bias has a part in this, it would be that "traditional" methods
for preparing kids to earn a living favor the male-oriented.

I see no problem with TODTW day. If I had daughters, I would also encourage
them to attend girls-only schools, precisely because they get a better change
to learn how to lead. Some say this leads to an "artificial" environment, and 
that girls are better off learning in the "real" world. I am of the opinion,
however, that girls coming out of girls' schools, having learned how to lead,
are in a better position to be (rightfully) outraged at the male bias of the
real world, and to have the tools to "break the mold".

Besides, everyone knows all men are pigs.
Present company excepted, of course.

    Mr Magazine?  Which one is that?  Esquire?  Playboy?
    
    That won't play with me because, you see, there's never
    been a _need_ for a men's mag quite like Ms.
    
    When that mag was first published, ooh, it was intoxicating,
    let me tell you.   

    
>Besides, everyone knows all men are pigs.
>Present company excepted, of course.
    
    
    	You mean "accepted".
    

    >You know the answer to this already.  At a certain point in their
    >lives, either girls start deferring to boys or boys start running
    >rampant over girls, I don't know which it is or if it's a combination
    >of both.  Make it a TOKTW day, and the girls will all be in the back of
    >the room listening quietly while the boys push to the front and play on 
    >the computers, ask the questions, bla bla bla.
    
     This phenomenon is well known, well documented, and an excellent
    argument for separating boys and girls for such an event. I fully
    concur that separating the boys and girls for this event makes perfect 
    sense.
    
     How can this event best be accomplished? Let's consider the
    differences between separate days and a combined day in which the
    children are broken into groups based on gender.
    
     Arguments for separate days: separation of boys and girls. Girls get
    to feel "special", having a day set aside just for them. Anyone else
    have any other pro arguments?
    
     Arguments against separate days: duplication of effort, twice the
    disruption to school, potential for unequal treatment, greater
    disruption to work.
    
     Arguments for one day: separation of boys and girls, all kids get to
    feel equally special, equal treatment is far more likely, a single
    disruption to school, conservation of effort to organize, half the
    disruption to the work environment.
    
     Arguments against one day: girls don't get to feel more special than
    boys, boys get to leverage a benefit from something originally intended
    to help only girls.
    
     Feel free to add to any of the lists.
     

    
    All right, I can go for one day as long as boys and girls are kept
    separate for all the activities other than lunch or whatever.  I just
    don't want mixed groups while they're supposedly learning.
    

    re .138
    
    Sorry to raise the old nature/nurture specter again, but this is an
    area where socialization can easily outweigh whatever physiological
    tendencies are present from birth.
    
    It is not easy to mitigate the effects of socialization and the chances
    are that most gender roles are subtly reinforced from day one. 
    Extensive studies done in the UK showed that females perform better in
    schools where no boys are present.  In some segregated school systems,
    such as the Grammar system that I attended, girls outperformed boys
    at all ages in most subjects.  College attendence was about equal in
    both, but by the time they got to work females were paid less and were
    far less likely to hold higher ranking jobs.  Thus, removing gender
    pressures from educational establishments does not necessarily
    manifest itself later as equality in the workplace, so the difference
    in job distribution must come from elsewhere in the process of gender
    role socialization.
    
    Assuming normal bell curves of aptitude, intelligence, etc, etc, this
    means that instead of drawing the best and the brightest from both the
    male and female populations, we must be filling many job roles with less
    apt males.  Given that males are already succeeding (for whatever reason)
    it's perfectly possible that TODTW day is just one small way of
    improving the situation.  Not redressing the balance or giving them a
    leg up, but just setting an example that women can and do succeed in
    the workplace.  Boys simply don't need it.  It would be a waste of
    cycles.
    
    
    Colin
    

>    All right, I can go for one day as long as boys and girls are kept
>    separate for all the activities other than lunch or whatever.  I just
>    don't want mixed groups while they're supposedly learning.

So you're opposed to coed schools?

    
    Just for this day, Gerald 8^).
    
    

>                     <<< Note 333.143 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

>    Not redressing the balance or giving them a
>    leg up, but just setting an example that women can and do succeed in
>    the workplace.  Boys simply don't need it.  It would be a waste of
>    cycles.

	That must look really good to the girls.  You girls need this
	day, but the boys don't.  They're way ahead of ya.  Terrific.

 Z   All right, I can go for one day as long as boys and girls are kept
 Z   separate for all the activities other than lunch or whatever.  I
 Z   just don't want mixed groups while they're supposedly learning.
    
    Mz. Debra, you make a valid point and I agree with you.  Which is why
    the Boy Scouts, the Girls Scouts, The Cub Scounts, Brownies, etc.
    should remain as sacred pillars of refuge for the genders.
    
    Do you believe town sports should be gender specific?
    
    -Jack

    
    Well, I was never active in sports, so anything I say is just about
    what I've heard, not what I've experienced.
    
    While boys and girls are younger and pretty much equal in ability,
    mixed gender sports should be all right.  But once they've gotten to
    the point where they're no longer physically equal, they should
    probably split into separate gender sports, as long as there's a team
    for each gender in each sport, if that makes sense.
    
    I know a guy who was on his high school hockey team, and one team they
    played against had a girl on the team.  (There was no hockey team for
    the girls.)  He said, and I can see this happening, that he and his
    teammates would feel "bad" if they checked the heck out of her and she
    was injured - beating up on a girl and all that - but that they would
    also feel "bad" if she beat them at whatever, so basically, she couldn't
    win.
    
    
     

    
    Di,
    
    I don't care what looks good or bad.  It's simply a question of the
    raw economics of the situation.  Society expends x amount of resources
    on an equal education which is arguablly wasted because of other
    inequities in the system.  (Inequities is a poor word to describe
    differences in the socialization process).  It's not that I'm arguing
    "for" a TODTW, but that TOSTW is a waste of effort.
    
    Fact is, women are underrespresented or underemployed in many job areas
    that have nothing to do with (purported) competativeness and aggressive
    tendencies. If you want to categorize this issue as one of competition
    then focusing on the relative political correctness is a sure fire way to
    ensure that nothing changes on the macro level.   
    
    Simply put,  If I had daughters, my biggest concern for them would be
    that even after pouring large wads of cash into their education, they
    would still be disadvantaged in the workplace.   Therefore, I might
    bring them to a TODTW day as I believe that it might help send them
    the right signals.
    
    As to how I would "explain" this to my sons.  I wouldn't.  I would simply
    float over the issue by hook or crook until they were of the right age
    to understand it.  I have a lifetime in which to explain things to my
    sons.  I don't start off by explaining why the sun shines by describing
    nuclear fusion, so the compexities of society will also come in their own
    time.   They'll learn why I do what I do and they can make their own
    decisions in later life.
    
         
    Colin

>                     <<< Note 333.149 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

>    I don't care what looks good or bad.

>    Therefore, I might
>    bring them to a TODTW day as I believe that it might help send them
>    the right signals.

	I don't understand how these two statements jibe.  I'm not 
	talking about being "politically correct" (barf).  I'm talking
	about sending signals too.  Keep reinforcing the notion that
	girls need special treatment and they always will.  

    >I don't care what looks good or bad.  
    
     Yet the WHOLE POINT of TODTWD is about the signals we are sending our
    children. I don't understand the attitude that says signals aren't
    important on one hand but predicates an event on the signals it sends.
    
    >It's simply a question of the raw economics of the situation.  
    
     I don't buy this argument. It may be cheaper in the short run to
    exclude boys, but what will the long term consequences be? Personally,
    I think it would be just as helpful for boys to see women in a working
    environment as it is for girls, albeit in different ways and for
    different reasons.
    
    >Fact is, women are underrespresented or underemployed in many job areas
    >that have nothing to do with (purported) competativeness and aggressive
    >tendencies. 
    
     The whys and wherefores of this constitute a complex subject indeed.
    Personally, it seems that a comprehensive, holistic approach started
    while the future workers are young has the best chance of success by
    the time the children enter the workforce.
    
    >If you want to categorize this issue as one of competition
    >then focusing on the relative political correctness 
    
     Either we buy into the notions that make an issue "politically
    correct" or we don't. If the notions themselves have merit, then they
    have merit regardless of the demographics of the groups to which they
    are applied. If this is not the case, then perhaps the premises need to
    be revisted.
    
    >Simply put,  If I had daughters, my biggest concern for them would be
    >that even after pouring large wads of cash into their education, they
    >would still be disadvantaged in the workplace.   
    
     This IS the case. It will likely be so in the future. The goal is to
    eliminate this prejudice. In the meantime, steps we can take to
    minimize this are positive, and move us towards the goal. Boys need to
    be told that they aren't going to get the job just because they have a
    penis as much as girls need to be told that they can get the job by
    being qualified. Doing one without the other seems likely to bear fewer
    fruit than doing both.
    
    >As to how I would "explain" this to my sons.  I wouldn't.
    
     Each to his own.

    
    The point is that worrying about what "looks good" or "looks bad"
    is why things never change.   On one level, I could worry that it
    would give daughters the idea that they need a leg up.  I could worry
    that it might send a negative message to my sons.  But on the other
    hand, the advantages that both might get from a fairer and more
    equitable working environment in future could completely outweigh
    any minor transient disadvantage from favouring one sex over the other.
    I don't see it as any different from explaining why they have to use
    separate changing rooms at the pool.
    
    If you really want to make some point, stop nitpicking and explain how
    you think the problem should be addressed.  Or tell me that you do not
    think there is a problem.
    
    
    Colin
    

>                     <<< Note 333.152 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>
    
>    If you really want to make some point, stop nitpicking and explain how
>    you think the problem should be addressed.  Or tell me that you do not
>    think there is a problem.

	Who are you addressing here?  "Nitpicking"?  If you're talking
	to me, I don't know what you mean about "nitpicking".  I've
	already said I think there should be one day for both sexes and
	I've said why.

    
    No solution has been proposed, only an action that would by it's very
    nature support the status quo.  But then, I can see why that would be
    an attractive solution to y'all.
    
    

>                     <<< Note 333.154 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

	Oh, please do be good enough to tell me why supporting the
	status quo would be an attractive solution to me.  I'm all
	ears.

    Because you are the status quo and I am the status quo.  I 
    don't know how much of my own motivation is bourne out of my own success
    or predjudices or socialization.  Maybe, just maybe,
    there is a touch of the "If I can do it then anyone can" mindset or
    simply a refusal to accept the fact that this is a real problem.
    
    This aversion to TODTW day is interesting.  Here's a bunch of people
    who recognise an inequity in the system and come up with a solution.
    Suddenly, a bunch of people who previously had no interest whatsoever
    in the problem as jumping up and down yelling no fair.  The originators
    of TODTW day are told that they are fighting one inequity with another,
    that it will send the wrong message, and so on.
    
    Suddenly, the solution is to NOW start promoting equity in the
    workplace.   Unfortunately, that is what is supposed to happen under
    the present system, only it doesn't.   Maybe I'm of an overly
    suspicious mind, but if someone was selling me this idea, I would tend
    to be a little leery of the motivation behind it and. Being the
    person perceiving the problem might want to come up with my own idea.
    
    Colin
      
    

>                     <<< Note 333.156 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

>  Maybe, just maybe,
>  there is a touch of the "If I can do it then anyone can" mindset or
>  simply a refusal to accept the fact that this is a real problem.

    Maybe that's what's going on in other people's minds, but not in
    mine.

>  Suddenly, a bunch of people who previously had no interest whatsoever
>  in the problem as jumping up and down yelling no fair.

    I was interested before, and I'm not jumping up and down yelling,
    so I guess you don't mean me here, either.

    Frankly, I think having one day for both sexes and separate
    days for both sexes are both good alternatives, but I think the combined
    day is a simpler solution.  I don't like the idea of girls receiving
    special treatment for a couple of reasons.  One, it subtly reinforces the
    underdog status, and two, I find it hypocritical amidst the cry for the 
    long-overdue and elusive equality of the sexes.

    I have both a son and a daughter. I would prefer to see one "take your
    child to work" day. Both of my children are curious about what I do 
    for a living and would benefit from such an event. It would give them
    both an idea if they may be interested in high-tech. Events such as
    these leave a lasting impression on a child and I think it's a shame
    that boys are left out of this experience.  
    
    I believe the eventual goal is to have a relatively equal mix of job 
    opportunities for both sexes, as well as equal pay, and other
    opportunities and benefits. Eventually, our boys and girls will be
    working together in a professional environment. They might as well
    get used to working together now. 
    
    Years ago, racial discrimination was targeted for reform, and EEO
    came into being. Eventually, EEO became discriminatory towards white
    males. I believe EEO goes too far. We need to discontinue job quotas, 
    and favoritism for minority-owned businees and other preferential 
    treatment. Jobs and service contracts should be awarded based on 
    abilities and economics, especially if this country is going to 
    compete in a global economy. 
    
    I believe the only time girls and boys should be separated is for
    Sex education, and changing facilities/bathrooms. Everything else
    (in the public sector) should be coed. 
    
    As for youth sports, I believe that ideally there should be
    opportunities for girls to play either coed or all-girl depending
    on what they feel most comfortable with. My son plays soccer on
    a (competative) travel league. There are girls in this league that
    can run circles around the boys. I can't see excluding the girls
    from competative sports, as long as they have the skills. Players
    are picked from open tryouts and girls have just as much chance of
    getting picked as boys.
    
    Mark

    Just a couple of things...
    
    On the TODTWD.  I saw a couple of engineers who brought their kids to
    work. One brought both his daughter and son, and the other brought
    their daughter (don't know whether or not they had a son). Anyway, the
    kids spent the day in their dad's office playing around with the
    computer. Which leaves me wondering... From the gist of this & other
    strings, I was under the impression that TODTWD was supposed to be
    somewhat orchestrated, with "learning sessions" and "demonstrations",
    etc. What I witnessed was basically people bringing their kids to work
    to play on their computers and have lunch with them. I'm unsure what,
    if any messages, these kids got.
    
    The other thing has to do with the suggestion of a single day for both.
    Since TODTWD was originally set up to show girls the important roles
    women have in the work environment, wouldn't it be a good idea to show
    the boys this too?
    
    Either way, in order for this to have any impact, I think it needs to
    bee a *lot* more organized than what I witnessed.

.143, and other `redressing the balance' comments,

this is fine and groovy if male and female are two distinct entities, but 
they're not, they comprise lots of individuals.  Discriminating against one 
person to counter the undeserved success of an entirely unrelated other is not 
on, in my opinion.

Chris.

    re: .161
    
    >even if I had to pull them out of school for a day. I believe they
    >generally do this during the public school's April vacation.  
    
    One of the problems with this 'day' is that someone has decided that it
    must be the same day everywhere.  There is no 'April vacation' in
    Texas.  To make matters worse, it comes just before the Middle School
    kids take their 'TAAS' tests.  (I don't know about the High School and
    Senior High Schools.)  'TAAS' tests are sort of like state-wide finals.
    
    I'd be more in favor this 'day' if it happened when school wasn't in
    session.
    
    Bob
    

    I do take my daughters to work on a fairly regular basis, especially
    since I often tele-commute.  ("No you can't play with the PC, it is back
    to back with my work system, wait till mom is finished up here.")  they
    also come into the office with me, in the hopes that they will find 
    out that there are better things in life than staring at tubes and
    talking to customers.  However, I do this when they are not in school. 
    There are plenty of other things I would rather take my kid out of
    school for, like the trip to Carlsbad when Lolita was a tour guide, the
    annual pepper plant hunt in Albequerque and Santa Fe, backpacking,
    fishing, trips to museums that the schools don't take them too......
    
    meg

    TOM's Back

  Oh, that's right, we're coming up on "Women are superior" Day again.

  bb

>        <<< Note 333.165 by GAAS::BRAUCHER "And nothing else matters" >>>

	and what is it that distinguishes that day from all the
	rest, i wonder?  aagagag.

    nothing!  absolutely nothing! 

    what's this again stuff?  i thought it was still. :-)

    Di is a part of the club though because she knows the Stooges...

    Not biblically of course....spreading seed and all...

  Well, it's caught me unawares, is all.  Now, where are those Helen Reddy
 lyrics...

  bb

>  Oh, that's right, we're coming up on "Women are superior" Day again.
    
     Happens around midnight, every [monday-sunday].

    women are only superior on three days.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Yesterday, today and tomorrow.
    
    
    meg

    Yoouuuu and meeeee against the world.....SOMETIMES IT FEELS LIKE...you
    and me again the world....

    Just turn your back and walk away, Jack!  :)

    You can count on me....to stayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.........

    Just slip out the back Jack,
    
    What do you mean we can count on you?
    

    .175
    
    More like:
    
    Hit the road Jack
    and dont cha come back
    no more no more no more no more
    
    Hit the road jack!:)
    
    
    Yes women are smarter then men.:)
    

That's right, women are smarter, that's right women are smarter, that's
right women are smarter, smarter than the man in everyway..

  .179  "That's right! - The woman is... smahtah."


	Have to get Harry's special way of saying it
	right, Jimmy. ;>
	

 I was using Bob Weir's way of singing it ;-)

>   <<< Note 333.181 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Give the world a smile each day" >>>

	  oh.  well that explains why it's so boring. ;>

    You can count on me...to stayyyyyyy!!!!
    
    Helen Reddy!

    Thats what I had threated a relative who wasn't doing well in college.
    Grades were on the low side, and I threated that IF his grades didn't
    improve, that I would show up with some Helen Reddy tapes, some Barry
    Mantalo, an allot of other choke your brains with crap music to play in
    his room and make him look like a real geek as so to keep his butt side
    out of the party places as so he would study. Yes, I am running on and
    on.:)

    
    
    	Could someone repost that in English?  =)
    

    
    	JJ, I don't think it's possible.