Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    Good Topic Greg,
    
              I Feel most bands REF::back to late 60's early 70's
          wrote some of theire music w/lyrics such as that for attention
          and publicity,..Black Sabbath (back in the early 70's had
          one of the worst reputation in that dealing..
          but then you have some songs by that band with total diferent
          meanings..So Thats My Guess.....
    
                   Either That Or Every Band....
    
             SOLD    THEIR   SOULS    FOR   ROCK -N- ROLL !
    
       THINK ABOUT IT...
    
       Mysterious deaths of....
    
            Janice Joplin   Jimmi Hendrix   Jim  Morrison
            Ritchie Vallence  Big Bopper  Buddy Holly 
                             + alot more....
              Right at the highest point of theire career!
                 weird huh!!!!
                                        JIM...Tama
     
          

    Let it be known that at the time of this reply, the Cookster and
    myself AGREE on something.  I think it's all hype too.  It sells.
    Anything that is taboo will almost always get attention and this
    is a prime example.  It's an act just like an actor playing a part.
    You perform, give the audience what they want, and then go back
    to reality.  
    
    
    				Mr Scary II

    I also have to agree with the last 2 replies. I think for the most
    part, bands use this stuff because it's controversial and brings
    them attention. A couple of exceptions: it's pretty well cronicled
    that King Diamond was a practicing Satanist before and during his
    days w/ Merciful Fate and with lyrics like " bring me the blood
    of the newborn child " from Satans Fall, who knows. Also Venom
    has some pretty scary stuff in their music also. I wonder if the
    PMRC Know about this, they'd have a field day. Dave Mustaine of
    Megadeth seems to be very occupied with death and dying ie. In
    My Darkest Hour.
    
    -Rey  

    
    	   Actually, Janice Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison and
    	Ritchie Vallence are all alive and well and partying it
    	up in Peru.  They gave up Rock-N-Roll for the driving beat 
    	of jungle drums, and spend most of their days scavenging
    	the forests looking for coca leaves to chew om.
    
    	-=[MOSAT]=-
    	(reserving my ticket for Peru)

    RE: 109.4
    
    In my darkest hour is a song dedicated to Cliff Burton and his tragic
    death, of course death and dying are going to be in the lyrics.
    
    As far as the alleged devil worship by bands like Slayer or Venom
    it is mostly just for publicity.  And when you get the "generic"
    bands with no talent but know how to play power chords a dark theme
    lyrically and phyisically(image wise ex. Death) fit perfectly.
    
    Brain
    

    Yeah, I guess I agree with Brian.
    
    So it's hype, so what? It sells right?
    
    I like it because it doesn't have alot of followers, so that makes
    me a little different. Coming from a town of Blackfoot and Bruce
    lovers [no offense here..] I like to be different, I don't blend
    as easy in the crowd.
    
    I guess I've always been that way. Different. Someone likes one
    band that I've been listening to for a while, I go to another that
    no one has heard before. My buddy told me about G&R before the record
    was even announced around these parts. Now look at it. Same with
    Metallica and Merciful Fate, both bands I brought the tapes to parties
    and threw it in the radio, nobody liked it at first, now there all
    thrashers...trend-followers. Not for me, I like to dare to be
    different. And occult music is definetly that...VERY different.
    
    No, I don't like to listen to alot of the Top 40's stuff of today,
    I prefer the music others haven't heard yet...and occult-style is
    just that.
    
    -renee>

    Do you think Satan/Lucifer appreciates the use of his name for free
    hype?
    
    Seems to me that the Devil don't play fair.  If anyone has had any
    dealings with the occult, you'll understand.  If bands do this for
    hype, they have no idea what they are messing with.
    
    Mike
    

    
    
    	I think that bands who are into the occult could be asking
    for trouble.  Try not to believe it but some seriously heavy shit
    comes out from messing around with stuff you know nowt about.
    	I tried the ouija board once and never again, f*@ked me up
    for a long while.
    
    	I think it's O.K. to sing about Satan and devils and shit like
    that (ie. the mighty Slayer, Possessed R.I.P.), but black magick
    is a definite no-no.
    
    MoshconsciousDuck.

    
    	I went to a friends one time to party on a Friday night, and
    they decided to play  Ouija  board.  I  said, `Ah bull$hit, I'll
    watch.'  Well, after a few beers, I wanted  to  ask  a  question, 
    but didn't want to get too involved with it, since  I've  always
    thought it was a  better  scope sighting target than a game.  It
    said that I'll never get  married, never have any kids, and that
    it wanted me dead.  Some spirit named  `WUV', and  although  you 
    may be rollin' by now, you're hearing this from a person who has
    always thought of this stuff as $hit, and  basically  still does,
    but I walked away feeling a bit nervous.  Especially since these
    people weren't kids just having fun.  They were SERIOUS !  
    
    METALord"

    Ever see the movie "Witchboard" with Tawny Kitaan and Patch from
    "Days of Our Lives". There was a ouiji board and it freaked me out.
    Don't mess with that shit.
    
    
    the devil dog who gets his name from being a marine not from eating
    kal-kan for satan. 

    
    
    
    	For more discusssion on Ouija boards and the occult, add
    	BOMBE::DEJAVU to your notebook.  There's been plenty of
    	times that I've lost myself in that conference only to 
    	have someone come into my office and scare the daylights
    	out of me!
    
    	RE: devil doesn't play fair
    		
    	If he did play fair, he wouldn't be the Devil, would he?!
    
    	(^8
    
    	Tig~~
    

    I've had friends who were into the devil and all of them eventually
    went down the road to despair!!  I think anyone who even fools with
    the sh_t is askin for it!  I've seen too many lives go down the
    toilet to think the occult is anything less than threatening.
    

    	Devil = believe what you want to believe, disregard the rest.
    
    	God   = believe what you want to believe, disregard the rest.
    
    	Organized religion is a lie, it's the product of MAN not GOD.
    	It's been corrupted from what God meant [if you believe in God].
    	Be at peace with yourself, be true and kind.  That's what God
    	is all about.  Not follow the rules of this church or that church,
    	or the Devil's gonna get ya/you won't make it into heaven.
    
    	as always, my opinion,
    	joe.

    re: .15
    
    Good attitude, Buck.  I completely agree.  But why do you list one of
    your nicknames as Lucifer? 
    
    gh

    Another wierd thing that happened, that I just remembered, was 
    that when I put my hands  on  that  thing-a-ma-bob, it  `said'
    EL75 - Those were my grandmothers initials and she was 75 when
    she died.  THAT is what really freaked me out.  Never  touched 
    one since, and I got  rid of the one my grandmother had.  Call
    it `Cleansed by Fire'.  I burned the damn thing  and  whenever
    someone whips one out at a party, this kid goes  home !  I  am
    a Christian, may not go to church, but I do believe in God.
    
    METALord"_has_learned_something_since_then_to_leave_that_$hit_alone!

    RE: .16
    
    See OPERATION:MINDCRIME, by Queensr�che
    
    "Selling Skin, Selling God... The numbers are the same on their
     credit cards..."

    jc

re: .16

I couldn't have said it better myself, Joe. You captured my feelings
on the subject to a T!

cat

    
    The numbers LOOK the same on thiers credits cards...

    I didn't pick the name lucifer, it was given to me.
    
    It has to do with how I play HM guitar (long story).
    
    Buck rarely aka Lucifer

    re: Buck
    
    I've heard just a little of your playing (and would definately like to
    hear more!).  I could see someone making that connection.
    
    You have to admit, without the preface, it looks a little odd. 
    
    gh

    I think the folks that end up in the gutters while listening to
    Occult/Satanic metal would have ended up there anyway - this just
    sped up the process a bit, gave them an excuse.  A weak soul will
    follow the path of least resistance, and most people KNOW what that
    is.  
    
    re: .16 (I think ...)  If I could find an established church like
    that I'd go in a heartbeat !  All I see down here in the Bible belt
    is the stuff Operation Mindcrime was conceived from, so I keep my
    beliefs and thoughts to myself.
    
    
    				Scary

    As a yankee, I can concure with what Mr. Scary is tellin' ya...
    
    I was badly scorned by a baptish (southern, there is a difference!)
    who came to my ouse the other day to get me to join his church...
    Why ?
    
    Because I told him I liked Jesus Christ Superstar (the musical).
    
    He said it was blasfamy (sp?)  I asked him if he'd ever seen it,
    and he said, NO ! Certainly he must've to say bad things about it.
    
    I used to go to a protestant congregationalist church.  There is
    no such thing here...
    
    Yo, Jerry !  Tell them about the that chick with the black candles
    made from human fetus' tissue ....  Disgusting... And she's pregnant!
    
    jc

    Yo Coop - I never knew about these candles !  I think I know who
    you're talking about though.  This is a good example of being Satanic
    to be accepted.  FYI folks, this girl in question here was dating
    a guy that sung for a local deathmetal band called Morriah.  This
    guy was "supposed" to be a witch, and never came outside during
    the day.  Mega-drugs spoken here.  She hoped right on the band wagon
    (which is a groupie thing to do ...) and was a self-proclaimed witch
    herself.
    
    But know she's married, to a different guy, pregnant, and going
    to church every Sunday - met her preacher myself Saturday night.
    She's a reformed witch now I guess .........
    
    
    			      Scary

    I feel bad for Scott (the witches hubby).
    
    Anyhow, yeah, she was tellin' me about those candles one time, and
    I was just thinkin' ...whoa...
    
    Imagine that ?  I give that b*tch 2 months after having that kid,
    to blow off her old man and pack off with some groupie (and leave
    the kid for Scott).

    
    jc

    My wife was teeling me about the "Geraldo Rivera(sp)" show the other
    day.  Seems they had these teens on that had just "quit" an occult
    group.  They said that drugs, booze and HM all are mixed in with
    these occult groups.  They said that their rituals included eating
    and drinking human and animal feces, urine and HEARTS.  They said
    there are more HM bands that are cult members than the public realizes.
    There are many albums out there that use subliminal(sp) suggestion
    within their songs.  My wife said that these teens looked dead serious
    when they spoke and did not appear to be publicity maniacs.  One
    thing that they all said was that they are all slated to be killed.
    Once you quit this cult group, it's all over. 
    
    Chris D.

    WHooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaa
    
    Thats oem heavy stuff there mate !
    
    Damn !
    
    'Coop - who_knows_they're_out_there_and_will_avoid_completely !
    

    I've got a friend who knows some devil-type worshippers.  He told
    me that many of the missing kids/infants have been kidnapped by
    satan worshippers and then, well...I don't want to get into it here,
    'cuz it's like really sick!!!  I'd like to find a few of these nuts
    and string 'em up.
    
    joe. (who-says-the-devil-can-kiss-my-you-know-what)

    
    
    	DON'T MESS WITH THIS STUFF!!
    
    I was a little kid when I saw a late night tv show about the
    occult, and they showed this 10 year old girl, who had become 
    possessed by a demon/spirit she had come into contact with
    playing with a Ouija board. She was moaning, and floating around,
    and I thought "HA!!! Bullsh**!!" and the next day I bought one.
    	
    	This friggin thing was telling me what to do. My friends and
    I had a "conversation" with our friend that had been electrocuted
    and we were told all kinds of things that we couldn't have made
    up. We have 10 pages or so of conversation written down by someone
    watching, until this other "person" started interfering with
    our "connection" and was just screaming swears at us, and wouldn't
    let our friend talk. When our friend could get a word in edge-wise
    he said that it was another person with him, and that they weren't
    in heaven.
    	Okay, I never believed much in any of that stuff, and I also
    don't rule anything out. All I know is that I took that damn
    game back the next day , and couldn't sleep for days. I had this
    intense feeling that someone was going to get me, and it took
    me a while to get out of it.
    	Nothing good ever comes out of that sh*t.
    
    /Motorbreath...believe what you may, but I won't mess with it. There
    are even references to this type of thing in the bible
    
    
    yikes!

    
    	   I have recently read up on this subject in some detail.
    	I ran across a book that contains the actual incantations
    	from 'The Book Of Death' used to summon specific demons
    	unto your presence (ostensibly to do your bidding).  I
    	have found other incantations and rituals which are alleged
    	to send you 'through the gates' of knowledge, by putting
    	you in touch with the demons who watch the gates.  Both
    	books placed a high importance level on the symbols and
    	signs used when invoking the demons.  Needless to say,
    	I have not attempted any of the spells (some of which date
    	back no less than a thousand years).
    
    	   In my humble opinion, the occult is primarily dangerous
    	because people believe in it, not because demons will
    	descend on the hapless experimenter.  Though I must add
    	that both books had a warning not to become a hapless
    	experimenter.
    
    	   I will reserve my final judgement on whether the occult
    	is bull-droppings or scray-kaka for the day I become
    	omniscient.  Check back with me on Thursday.
    
    						- Greg

    There is a book called "The Satan Seller" by an ex-satanist high
    priest turned christian comedian. In it he covers stuff from recruiting
    kids to casting spells. Interesting.
    
    
    the devil dog

                Re: .36
                
                Are  you    referring  (by  any  chance)  to  the
                Necronomicon?  Contrary  to  popular belief, that
                book is *not* a "book of the devil", actually, it
                has incantations on warding off  demons and evil.
                Still,  I  wouldn't  mess with it.    It's  isn't
                called the Book of the Dead for nothing.
                
                - Rob
                
                

    re: .38
    
    	   The Necronomicon is only one of the texts I was referring
    	too.  The other was a somewhat interesting tome about
    	Witchcraft and Sorcery, complete with old woodcuts and
    	a description of the rituals they depicted.  Yet another
    	is a book called "Philters and Spells".  Add in a couple
    	of cheap paperbacks and the bibliography is complete.
    
    	   The most interesting was the Picture_Book_Of_Magic,
    	which had the spells, descriptions of the demons invoked
    	(with pictures, usually), and what you could expect from
    	the demon upon arrival.  I wrote a story that included
    	the incantations and the anticipated results.  The
    	witch died in the end for disturbing the great Asmodeus.
    	Nasty business.
    
    	   Presumably the spells are accurate.  There was also
    	one to make you invisible.  It was in Latin, so it's 
    	hard to make out exactly what you're saying, but it's 
    	sure fun walking around the mall naked and invisible.
    	Now, if only I can find the counter-spell.
    
    	-=[MOSAT]=-
    	(dark magick a specialty)
    

    Man, it's nasty !
    
    I'm watchin' it too...
    
    Ozzy is on there...
    He's already said that "all occult types listen to metal like Slayer,
    Venom, Iron Maiden, Ozzy..."
    
    Ozzy is just kickin' back sayin' lettin' him say all that sh*t !
    
    Next, they  have this guy who is the leader of a cult called "LET".
    This guy is a full-boat colonel in the Army, and the Army let's
    him stay and stufff...(Whoa !  how'd you like to follow this guy
    into battle Devil Dawg ?).  This guy *looks* like Lucifer himself!

    Man, this is wild...
    
    Does anyone out there believe that metal really causes Satanism?
    
    jc

    Glad you asked - I watched all of that show.  I was pissed from
    the start when he used "Looks That Kill" by the Crue to open up
    the show.  I'm not saying that there isn't trouble out there 'cause
    the evfidence is pretty clear, but I beleive Metal could lead to
    violence quicker than it would lead to Satanism and then onto violence.
    Satanism seems to prey on weak minds, some kids are easily impressed,
    so it only stands to reason there can be a link.  And as a parent
    it concerns me.  Most of the stuff I listen to lately has
    Satanic/Gloom/Doom overtones but I know where reality is.  And I
    can see how a kid growing up in our times might think this could
    be a switch into the fast lane around adolescent troubles.  I know
    when I was in my early teens Black Sabbath was very popular and
    I was dead into it.  My room had black wall paper, black ceiling,
    black light posters, black candles, pentagrams, the works.  Didn't
    sacrifice any virgins though .... but then again I beleive they
    quit making them in about '62.  But anyway, I was making a statement
    more on interior design, not the Occult.  All my buddies thought
    my room was "the" place to be.  My Mom didn't really think too much
    about it (and you see what happened ..).  Luckily for me, my son
    is mature for his 12 years, and has a pretty good grip on the real
    world.  But when I pick him up from school just about all you see
    on the boys are black T-shirts with some HM band's logo on it. 
    There is a fellowship being created through the music, it's just
    hard to say where it's leading.  Anybody else have any thought ?
    
    
    				PapaScary
    		    (Who's concerned about this one !)
                    

    As soon as I turned the show on, my cable went out!  Makes ya wonder
    don't it???
    
    Steve O

    One kid that was on death row said that if you wanted out of satanism,
    the only way was thru god.  This kid is scheduled to be executed.
    
    What do ya think of that ?
    
    re: -.1
    
    Yike !  Call the cable company... Tell 'em you live on Elm st., and
    your box is doin' wierd things...

    re: -.2
    
    Jerry, do you insist on believing that they stopped making virgins
    the year I was born ?  
    
    ;^)

    What ticked me off most is that Ozzy didn't say a damn word in defense
    of metal.  I wished I'd taped it.
    
    jc

    Unfortunately, I didn't watch all of it but what I did see was pretty
    scary.  My wife was telling me that Geraldo had two shows dedicated
    to Satanism last week and some of the stuff was real sick.  As far
    as Ozzy goes, he could have come up with better answers.  For instance,
    when asked about the kids that get picked up for violent crimes
    having heavy metal albums at home, he should have just said that
    almost all teenagers have heavy metal albums so that if you take
    just pick kid off the street, you have a 99.9% chance of finding
    out that this kids listens to HM.  In Christianity, we have our
    fanatics.  There have been religously fanatic mothers that have
    killed their children because they thought they were possessed.
    In satanism, there are probably fanatics too that think they have
    to sacrifice human lives.  Unfortunately, some of these fanatics
    are probably the carismatic type that can influence others through
    the power of speech.  But, in my opinion, ALL these people are mentaly
    sick to begin with.  YOu have to be crazy to do some of that stuff.
    Kidnap kids as young as 9 and turn them into baby factories so the
    babies can be used as sacrifices.  REAL SICK.
    
         Chris D.

    After watching the show last nite I am still convinced that HM music
    has no influence on satanism and sacraficial behavior. AAF is busting
    great bands like Iron Maiden and Metallica this morning and they
    insist that HM music is involved deeply in this occult/religion.
    I haven't listened to bands such as Slayer, King Diamond,
    and other thrash bands but I do listen to bands such as Maiden,
    Crue, and Ozzy three bands that were mentioned on last night's special
    as satanic in one form or another. After watching the show though
    i believe that these forms of satanism: sacrafices, killings, drinking
    blood, and ( sick ) skinning babies after birth, actually happen
    and is rather a growing thing in the U.S. and surrounding countries. 
    What is everyone's opinion on this after the television special?
    Will Heavy metal become even more controversial to the political
    people? 
    Should we, heavy metal listeners, worry about the future of HM?
    
    thoughts!!!
    

    I'm worried.

    I never thought tat Iron Maiden was satanistic [sic].
    It's *just* music !  Sheeesh !  People like Tipper Gore are gonna
    go wild after that show.  Geraldo should be shot.  I think Bruce
    Dickenson should shoot him.
    
    kc

    re: PapaScary
    
      I missed this show...(was afraid of more Capone's vaults)....but
    this is becoming a cheap copout for people. I can see perhaps some metal
    causing agression but so does football, the evening news, and half
    a million other things!!!  Metal music is being used as a sacrificial
    lamb.  If a few more parents would take the time to listen/see/hear
    their kids we wouldn't so many confused lonely kids running around!
    But many parents don't want to take that responsibility on.....and
    of course it really is so much easier to "blame" the problems on
    something.  
      It would also be interesting to know how many other "types" of
    people are into satanism.......I can't believe they all listen to
    metal music and have long hair.  ;^)  Bet there are a few doctors
    and lawyers mixed in that bunch!  Wonder why we never hear about
    them?  
     
    Vicki

    God, you people are fast with replys!!  :^)
    
    Coop, shouldn't Bruce skewer him instead...?  :^)
    
    Question:  Is the only reason Metal is being blamed/associated with
   	       Satanism because of lyrics of "some" bands?  I can think
               of lots of authors/poets who have the same kind of black
               overtones.....
    
    Vicki    	       

    re .52
    
    Yea, but most ignorant people (meaning most of these people are
    ignorant) close their eyes to this.  Many authors write as if they
    were someone else.  I believe it's called 1st person omnificent
    or something like that.  If a band writes lyrics saying, "worship
    the devil" or something like that, it doesn't necessarily mean that
    they worship the devil.  They are mearly acting as "reporters" and
    saying what they have seen, be it ficticious or true.
    
    Many of the worlds greatest poets use this method of writing.  I
    can't think of exactly who it was, but some famous poet I reciently
    studied wrote many poems about killing people.  The poems were written
    as if the person who did the killing wrote the poem.
    
    Steve O

    Hey, aren't you guys a little defensive?  I too watched the entire show
    (didn't tape, sorry) and one thing I noticed was that every time he
    (Geraldo) mentioned heavy metal music, he qualified that it wasn't
    *all* heavy metal music, or *all* heavy metal music fans, just a select
    few. 
    
    Like Coop, I was a little surprised that he included Iron Maiden in the
    groups he mentioned that played Satanic music.  Some of the others were
    very much more applicable (Venom - *shiver*). 
    
    The only group that I thought he really picked on was King Diamond,
    after that short interview segment with him.  In this one case, I think
    I might agree.                                
      
    Ozzy could have been a little more intelligent in his replies, but
    at least he didn't get mad and flame all over them (like they probably
    expected).  I thought he retained his composure very well and managed
    to come off reasonably well.  His statement was basically "I never
    intended anyone to get hurt or hurt themselves, just to play music
    and everyone have a good time" (very loosely paraphrased).
    
    What can ya say?  There *are* a lotta *sick* people out there.
    
    gh

    
    	I watched the special, and while I HATE Geraldo Riveira's
    show format, and the way he's always touching the people he's
    interviewing and his arrogance, I DID NOT SEE HIM SLAM HEAVY
    METAL AT ALL!!! I know that as HM fans, it's easy for you to 
    assume every single comment made about HM that isn't positive
    should be ridiculed. In this case, Geraldo didn't slam HM at
    all. 
    	Can you honestly say that you don't think there is a single
    link between some HM and some of these people? 
    	Do you honestly believe that some artists like Diamond
    Possessed, and Slayer aren't into some form of Satanism? Why
    the hell would their lyrics be so graphic and so specific 
    about Satanism? 
    	I love speed metal, heavy metal, pop metal, and HM in general,
    and I don't think that listening to any album(s) is going to make
    you convert to Satanity.
    	There are a couple opinions on this:
    One is that children are influenced by Satanic HM and that the music
    is turning them on to Satan... this may be true, but I have a hard
    time believing it, and it never influenced me in that direction
    at all.
    
    I think that the reason so many of these kids involved with
    ritualistic crimes have been HM fans, is that MOST kids their
    age ARE HM fans. Not only that, but a lot of this s*it has been
    in the bible belt. What better way to REBEL against mom and pop
    (and the community) than to listen to HEAVY METAL and get into
    Satan? 
    
    There are arguments for both sides.
    
    As much as I like Ozzy, he's not the most intelligent guy in the
    world, so you shouldn't have expected him to go nuts like someone
    like Dee Snider or something.
    
    
    /Motorbreath

    
    	I think that the reason Ozzy wason is because of the Suicide
    contraversy over one of his albums.  I would have loved to have
    Dee Snider or Frank Zappa or Bruce Dickenson and let them rip
    Geraldo to pieces.
    
    Bk
    

    
    
    	I think what we have here is a question of mind control,
   	and who else is easier to manipulate than young people 
    
    	People that choose that route usually end up seeing the light
    	or what have you in time, but then you have the rest that 
    	are so far gone that there's no way out and those are the ones
    	that carry on the legacy of satanism. For we all know that 
    	where there is good there is also evil, it just a matter of
    	what the individual person choose's to take sides with. 
    
    	But to put a reason as to why someone does this is somewhat
    	absurd. It's obviously mind control, having the edge, or
    	having certain speech techniques that manipulate people, which
    	to me is the oldest form of power, being able to talk some-
    	one into doing something without them even knowing it.

    	The only thing I credit Geraldo for is that he brings things
    	out in the open so as to let the people (closed minded mostly)
    	know that there is this kinda stuff going on. Ya' know, open
    	some eyes in some people's safe little world.
    
    	I forgot the name of the movie but it had an interesting
    	saying that someone once said  "For evil to win, the good
    	must do nothing"
    
    	Hollywood..................my point of view!

    I don't like the idea of that idiot trying to link
    HM to this devil worship stuff, 99.9 of all young kids
    when they start listening to music are into heavy metal
    or rock whatever you want to call it, and just because a
    kid has a Ozzy tape on him or tape of any HM artist when he
    doesn't something stupid, you gonna blame it on the music,
    if it was a Lawernce Welk tape or music to that effect the
    musci wouldn't have anything to do with it, because thats the
    musci they listen to(the people saying all this stuff) and try to
    find something else to balme it on. I just caught parts of
    the show last night and the parts i saw i wasn't impressed with,
    like when they showed the Iron Maiden cover i think it was The Number
    of THE Beast, the show the devil with strings coming out of his
    finger tips controlling eddie is what the focused on but if they
    showed the whole cover yu see Eddie standing over the devil controlling
    him, they see one thing and what i preseeve when i see that cover
    is the devil trys to controll you but you have the ultimate control
    over the devil, I just didn't like the biased opions agaist HM,
    I have listen to heavy hetal since i was 12 years old and i'm 24
    now and not once did i even think anything close to what that guy
    was talking about, I defintely think there is a promblem out there
    with this satanic stuff but the should concentrate more on helping
    these people getting out or finding ways to keep people out, 
    i my opion is that these peole don't have many freinds or don't
    have people that they can really talk to and they become weak minded
    and easily impressed to join this shit, I'm not sticking up for
    these people at all, infact i can't say on here what i woold like
    to do to them, but this kind of stuff could be prevented,
    
    Tony
    

    Probably the whole reason for the association of HM and Satanism
    is because a lot of these kids (and they showed some on T.V.) have
    OZZY or MOTLEY CRUE tatood on their arms along with Satanic symbols.
    They have OZZY and MOTLEY CRUE (among others) posters all over their
    rooms along with Satanic posters.  HM has been deemed guilty by
    association.  BUT, put yourself in a 50 year old parent's shoes.
    Their kid just killed another kid, he's got satanistic stuff all
    over the place mixed in with HM stuff.  It's only natural that they
    would associate the two.  It's not really their fault.  If you hung
    around with the Hell's Angels and rode a Sportster, you would be
    seen by others as a Hell's Angel even though you never joined the
    club and you don't have a Hell's Angels jacket.
         Well, that's my $.02.  
    
    Chris D.

I recorded the special.  I tried to cut out the commercials, and may have
missed a few minutes at the end, but I have most of it.  I started watching
to see them claim listening to Heavy Metal caused these kids to go bad, but
it covered a lot more than HM's affect on kids.

Ozzy was in a no win situation.  He had to remain calm and give reasonable
coherent answers to questions that Geraldo asked.  He should have mentioned
he is now drug free so that he is a better role model than some other
bands, but other than that I thought he was okay.  The show's format
wouldn't have allowed him to beat Geraldo in an interview.  Geraldo would
have avoided talking to him.  Ozzy did alright considering the
circumstances.

I didn't feel that the show slammed heavy metal very much.  They showed the
cover of an Iron Maiden album, and did a segment on King Diamond who was a
satanist, but claimed he didn't preach that at concerts.  He seemed pretty
crazed to me.  I had never heard of him before the special.

Heavy metal gets dumped on because of the lyrics.  Most kids listen to it
so of course they will find these albums in the rooms of kids who commit
heinous crimes.  One kid they interviewed (who beat his friend to death
with a bat) said he went in his room and listened 4+ hours a day.  He
claimed the music and drugs were his inspiration.  Is that any worse than
watching TV all the time?  TV certainly has violence.  I expect the impact
on the person is a function of the person and not the music or show or
whatever.

    Who ever said Satanism had to do with devil worship or human sacrafice?
    I have read a version of a Satanic Bible.  The main belief of Satanism
    is the importance of the individual.  In the Christian faith (which
    I believe) the most important aspect is to Love one Neighbor.  In
    Satanism, you look out for yourself only.  For example, If you feel
    comfortable being faithful to  one mate, then do so.  If you don't,
    don't.  If you commit murder to greaten your own life then all the
    better for you.  I don't see how HM can be linked to this philosophy.
    Unless you consider the individuality of each of the listeners and
    performers.  You have to admit that all who listen to metal have
    been considered a bad element just because of their taste in music.
    Someone, somewhere has commented on that same taste in music, but
    do any of us care what the hell they think.  No.  So maybe in that
    aspect it may be considered linked to the Satanic philosophy.  I
    seriously doubt it,  if that was the case even Christian HM groups
    like Stryper would be considered Satanic.  I don't buy that one
    bit.
    
    
    The Sentinal
    

    
    re.63
    
    	I also read the book...and tried to convey the message that
    Satanism dosen't condone rape or sacrafice (human or otherwise)
    to the people on WAAf but I was rudely cut off by that pigheaded
    Karen Grace.
    
    They believe in putting yourself first.  I think what was shown
    on TV was either a lesser form of magic of was the idea of someone
    who after seeing a TV show decided ..wow..that's what it's like
    so I'll go commit crimes or kill myself and blame it on Satanism.
    
    	If that person was truely interested in the real thing they
    would read the book and see that killing yourself is not a favorable
    thing to do....nor is killing someone else. 
    
    	What the people are doing is finding all these problems with
    some teens and looking for an excuse for the behavior and finding
    a weak excuse....Tv satanism...which it totally wrong.
    
    Bk
    _who is a catholic but believes if you are going to pin an excuse
    on a religion at least know a little abut the religion before you
    claim knowledge (from watching TV).
    
    Ps To prove the ignorange of people.  On WAAF they played Number
    of the beast by Iron Maiden.  That included the intro...and pig
    head... I mean Karen Grace said...,"That sounds Satanic to me.."
    In all her ignorance she forgot to read the part where after the
    intro it tells where the intro was taken.  What she claims to be
    Satanic is actually a quote from the Book of Revelations from the
    New Testament...it's funny... I never considered the Catholic Bible
    to be Satanic.
    
    BK
     

    
    RE .65
    
    A pentagram is the center of the star..the whole thing is called
    a pentacle..
    
    Bk
    _who might be wrong but atp dosent think so...
    

    
    	RE: 65
    
     	Look at the inner photo from Too Fast for Love (at least on the
    tape).
    	The star is upside down, there are a couple candleabras (SP)
    and 4 skulls in the photo.
    
    	Hey, this is what the scene was in 1982. The image was in, and
    Motley Crue was at the forefront of the image/look.
    
    	Even though the boys from MC are/were the baddest ever, I doubt
    they are Satanists.
                                                      
    /Motorbreath... who thinks that the beginning of the Looks That
    Kill video (with the pentacle ? and the Doberman) roolz (as
    Pete would say)
    

                
                The upside down penticle is the sign of a warlock
                leader, not a satanist.
                
                

    
    	The Satanistic PENTACLE has the goat head in the middle with
    the horns in the two upward points.
    
    	what Mc has is just for show...do you really believe that those....
    boys...would put that there cause they were into it.....I thought
    not.
    
    Bk
    

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Note 99.988                   Metalhead Mutterings                   988 of 1016
SACMAN::FRANCINE "dark deception kills the light"    25 lines  16-FEB-1989 08:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    Hi dudes and dudettes.
    
    I had an argument with someone last night and I know I'm right..
    
    This person thinks that Metallica are devil worshippers - this is
    totally absurd, but kinda besides the point..  I said, why don't
    you read the lyrics here's some  - etc. etc.  
    
    When this person saw them in concert he said they sang that song
    
    I got something to say  (waa naa)
    I killed your baby today  (or mother)
    
    I KNOW this isn't a Metallica original, but can't think of the
    original band that did this!!  Its in my head somewhere... just
    can't find it!
    
    Can someone tell me so I can yell and scream at this person with
    the correct information?
    
    thanks
    
    F.

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Note 99.990                   Metalhead Mutterings                   990 of 1016
YODA::MCCARRON "What?"                                6 lines  16-FEB-1989 08:59
                                -< The Misfits >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    Re: .988
    
    
    
    Paul

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Note 99.991                   Metalhead Mutterings                   991 of 1016
YODA::MCCARRON "What?"                                8 lines  16-FEB-1989 09:01
                              -< Re .988 & .990 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    And I believe the song is "Last Caress".
    
    
    
    Paul
    

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Note 99.992                   Metalhead Mutterings                   992 of 1016
BUSY::KELLY "What's this hell you've put me through?" 6 lines  16-FEB-1989 09:01
                          -< Last Caress/Green hell >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    Glen DAnzig/Hell Bent Music BMI.
    
    Bk
    The Ghost
    

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Note 99.994                   Metalhead Mutterings                   994 of 1016
BUSY::KELLY "What's this hell you've put me through?" 7 lines  16-FEB-1989 09:51
                                -< Am I right? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    	The tune you are talking about is called The Last Caress...
    Green Hell is a totally different tune..  METALLICA just slides
    right into it on their EP..vut font get the two tunes mixed up.
    
    BK
    

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Note 99.993                   Metalhead Mutterings                   993 of 1016
SACMAN::FRANCINE "dark deception kills the light"    13 lines  16-FEB-1989 09:44
                          -< good tune, at any rate >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    No no no!!  8^)
    
    Its, I got something to say..  WA NA  I killed your..
    
    not wa na na na na  , am I right?  8^) x alot
    
    I think...
    
    The album name is Green Hell?  I've gotta pick that one up!
    
    F.

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Note 99.995                   Metalhead Mutterings                   995 of 1016
CSC32::G_HOUSE "Which way did they go?"               6 lines  16-FEB-1989 10:14
                    -< Besides that, how is that Satanic? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ...and as Paul said, the tune was written by Glen Danzig (currently
    in Danzig) and was originally performed by one of Glens old bands,
    The Misfits.  Sorry, I don't know what album it was on.  Pete Cook
    may be able to tell you, I know he was looking for it awhile back.
    
    gh

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Note 99.996                   Metalhead Mutterings                   996 of 1016
SACMAN::FRANCINE "dark deception kills the light"    16 lines  16-FEB-1989 10:27
                        -< ready to strangle the dude >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    None of its satanic, really.
    
    You should have seen how pissed I was about the discussion of Metallica
    being satanic.
    
    We've been into this before and he thinks I'm a devil worshipper
    because of listening to heavy metal music.
    
    Kinda kidding around, I think, but..
    
    Some people will just never understand, I guess..  or they just
    don't want too..
    
    F.

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Note 99.997                   Metalhead Mutterings                   997 of 1016
NEEPS::IRVINE "Dark is the lack of light not the op" 11 lines  16-FEB-1989 11:10
                                -< more & more >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hey Francine,
    
    	I agree with ya but......
    
    Any none Metalhead seeing a Dio Vid would think that we are all
    into the Black Magic type of thing. I mean he ain't the worst but
    he does get quite a bit of exposure.
    
    just MHO,
    
    Bonzo.

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Note 99.998                   Metalhead Mutterings                   998 of 1016
AYOU48::MMADSEN "Justice is raped..."                 7 lines  16-FEB-1989 11:45
                                    -< FYI >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The album with Last Caress on it has been deleted - can't remeber
    the name. Green Hell is on "20 Tracks from Hell" and "Earth AD"
    
    I've got a live version of LC on a Misfits live EP. - it kills the
    Metallica version.
    
           Mike   

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Note 99.1005                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1005 of 1016
CISM::JANCZYK "Bless me father, for I have sinned"   22 lines  16-FEB-1989 12:48
                   -< Don't let em get cha all bothered!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Re: F. and Devil Worshiping..
    
    Francine, I know what your saying, devil worshiping/suicidal junk,
    will always be in the minds of those who don't want to open up and
    broaden their horizons.., they want to stick with the "norm", it's
    what their used to...."if you don't understand something/or not
    like it, critize it, put it down" that's the kind of attitude alot of
    people have.  They can't accept that we are all diffrent in one
    way or another, what would this world be like if we were all the
    same, I think pretty SCARY! These people are the misinformed, I am
    open to "all" kinds of music, I at least listen to something and form
    my own opinion.
    
    Hey, use reverse psych on em, I do and it works.. "O.k... I am a
    devil worshiper... would you like to be my first sacrifice" ?
    
    Cindi 
    
    oops CJ
    
    who loves METALLICA
           

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Note 99.1006                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1006 of 1016
GBMMKT::FALT "I'm an adult now"                       7 lines  16-FEB-1989 12:56
                           -< I'm not Superstitious >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    Back at it again we always come back to the same topics.
    Personally, I like the whole mysticism aura that some metal bands
    use to promote themselves.  Kind of adds an uncertain dimension
    to the music.
    
    Kat

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Note 99.1009                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1009 of 1016
SACMAN::FRANCINE "dark deception kills the light"    17 lines  16-FEB-1989 13:35
                                    -< ... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    Well, I gots to agree with the Dio thing.  I like Dio alot, but
    I don't play the albums I have of his at all anymore, because of
    the Devil stuff.  I totally enjoy it at someone elses house though.
    
    But Dio is just one band in a whole big huge world of heavy metal
    music.  Thats being wicked close-minded!   I mean, thats like listening
    to one disco tune and saying you don't like anything by that style
    of music.  
    
    Good idea, Cindy.  
    
    Well, it started out nonrelated - cat..  !!
    
    
    F.

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Note 99.1010                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1010 of 1016
CSC32::G_HOUSE "Which way did they go?"              24 lines  16-FEB-1989 13:59
                            -< My opinion on this >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I find it interesting that people will say that heavy metal music is
    all devil worship and Satanic and all that because someone sings a song
    about demons or the supernatural, but will not say a peep about an
    author such as Stephen King who writes about this type thing almost
    exclusively. 
    
    I can appreciate why people would dislike and fear devil worship, but
    these type inconsistancies make their arguments very weak for me.  If
    you are going to make certain presumptions based on certain lyrics,
    then make your statements universal.  The inconsistancies make me
    believe that these people are just using this as an excuse to attack a
    musical form which they personally dislike.  The 'pick on one musical
    (or whatever) genre', for reasons other than the real on ("I don't like
    it"), type attitude is to me a form of prejudice and shows gross
    ignorance. 
    
    Personally, I strongly dislike the Satan, demon, death type lyrics. For
    this reason, I avoid bands like Slayer, authors like Stephen King, and
    the occult in general.  Please read what I'm saying carefully, as I'm
    *NOT* saying that Slayer or Stephen king are devil worshippers, simply
    that they chose these topics for some of their material and I don't
    care to read/listen to it. 
                              
    gh

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Note 99.1011                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1011 of 1016
SACMAN::FRANCINE "dark deception kills the light"    12 lines  16-FEB-1989 14:07
                                   -< amen! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    re gh
    
    I agree totally!
    
    on everything you said, including not listening to certain bands.
    Sometimes I do read the books though, but not that often.
    
    Personally, I think the devil sucks!
    
    F.

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Note 99.1012                  Metalhead Mutterings                  1012 of 1016
BTO::PORTERC "SHORTEST STRAW,has been pulled for yo" 24 lines  16-FEB-1989 14:10
                          -< listen before you leap! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    		i agree that people should listen before they form their
    opinions, i mean, just today i brought in one of my tape cases to
    work to show one of my friends some of the music i listen to. well,
    this other guy says (in a sarcastic voice) it's probably full of
    HM. I said, well it is so what. so he says well i hate HM. Have
    you ever listened to any?,i said.......NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
    		of course not!!!! so he went on to say he thinks most
    dress like qu**rs and don't have any real talent, blahh blahhh...
                   
    		then there's this other guy i work with who is also
    a minister. he's pretty young (20's)...and he knows that i like
    HM so he let's me borrow some of his Christian Rock tapes which
    was cool but he's always making smart remarks about the concert
    T's i wear and he tells me things like even though i'm a christian
    i'm being influened by the music i listen to (satanic or otherwise)
    and that i'm sublimualy (sp?) picking up these awful messages from
    some of the groups i listen to. I don't buy that! but he is very
    serious... so i don't know? as far as MetallicA being a satanic
    group,i think that's way off! Slayer...well maybe? but MetallicA...
    NOOOOWAAAYYYY!!
    
    				I hear this sh*t all the time!,
    				JAM

    Ok, I've read most of Metallicas lyrics and the only thing I've ever
    seen which could remotely be considered devilish are the cryptic lyrics
    to the song "Battery".  For the life of me, I can't figure out what
    this song is about.  "Cannot kill the Family, Battery is found in me"
    *could* be interpreted as being about demonic possession. Being
    familiar with the rest of the music, I doubt this would be a correct
    interpretation.  Does anyone know any background on this?
    
    gh 

    
   Yes, the song is Last Caress written by Glen Danzig when he was in
    the Misfits. Never appeared on a LP as far as I know until Metallica
    covered it.
    
    Chain Reaction covers it too!
    
    /prc

    Battery is a song about Metallica and it's fans. It's dedicated
    to the fans.
    
    /Motorbreath...that's fact!

>  "Cannot kill the Family, Battery is found in me"

I beleive the actual lyrics are "battery has grounded me".....

cat

    
    	It sounds like "found in me", and that's what the lyric sheet
    says.
    	I have, however, seen transcriptions that read "grounded me'.
    
    	I opt with the former.
    
    						Les
    

    It is definitely "cannot kill the family, battery is found in me"
    
    we're not talking electronics here, more like ammunition supply!
    
    The only song I can think of that may be regarded as even
    anti-Christian is Leper Messiah... but you can take that song
    in a number of different ways.
    
    /Motorbreath...hypnotizing power, crushing all that cower...

>    	I have, however, seen transcriptions that read "grounded me'.
    
That's where I got the other words from. I stand corrected....

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Note 485.0                      Evening Magazine                      No replies
LANDO::QUEBEC "Its too late when we die"              9 lines  21-FEB-1989 10:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    
    Did anyone watch Evening Magazine last night??  They were supposed
    to do a story about teens and Satan.  I forgot to watch and was
    wondering if as usual Heavy Metal music was dragged thru the mud.
    
    Any comments?
    
    Rae

    
    From "Star Talk" in the  March 89 issue I bought in February.
	Reprinted without permission.
    
    This month's question....Have you ever had your fortune told?
    	If so, did it come true?  (Asked by Pamela Gabrielle, 
    	Los Angeles, CA)
    
    	
    EDWARD VAN HALEN:  "Never.  I think that's silly stuff.  I don't
    		wanna know what's gonna happen to me, even if the fortune
    		tellers aren't full of sh*t.  Even if these people can
    		really tell you what's gonna happen to you, I don't
		want to know.  That takes all the excitement out of
    		life.  It's better to make your own fortune."
    
    VINCE NEIL:	"No, I've never had my fortune told.  I don't even know
    		if I would go to a fortune teller.  I probably wouldn't
    		wanna hear what they'd have to say.  I figure that 
    		whatever happens is gonna happen.  'Cause there ain't
    		nothin' I could do to change it."
    
    NIKKI SIXX:	"Yea, I HAVE had my fortune told.    And it was right,
    		too!  I went to a psychic and some of the sh*t she
    		told me was so strange.  And believe me, those psychics
    		fill you in on the bad stuff too.  They tell you about
   		stuff that will happen in six months and when it 
    		happens, you're decked.  I was told I would be married
    		to Vanity when I thought I would be, which was December
    		of '87.  At the time I was so sure it was gonna happen.
    		Then our tour came up and eventually, we broke up.
    		So it was ALL true.  It's so scary how true that sh*t
    		is."
    
    Two more people in the next reply!!
    
    	Tigg~~	

    
    RE: .0 (way back there)
    
    	perhaps there isn't such a thing as bad publicity
    
    Craig ;-)

    RE: .63
    That must be The Satanic Bible, by Anton Szandor LaVey. This book's
    got a deceptive charm to it, but it's basically rebellion against
    religion again. In the beginning of the book, the author tells how
    he would watch his father conduct sermons in church, but that night
    would be at the carnival watching belly dancers.(something like
    that, anyway!) So now we have:The Mother's against everything plan!
    Step 1, eliminate heavy metal. Step 2, do away with writers like
    Stephen King. Step 3, all media must be approved by Mothers, or
    whatever group decides to be our "moral majority".
    Question: Did'nt something like this start with a book called
    "Mein Kampf"?
    
    In closing, a qoute from Oingo Boingo:
    "They say you're stupid, that you're too young to vote..."
              Spaceknight
    

    If there's anybody still interested in this note, reply because Tuesday
    night I'm going to a local high school because of a show about
    Satanism. It is aimed towards the parents to tell the signs of Satanism
    in their children. If anybody is still out there reply and I'll post
    some of the groups the people metioned.
    
    JeFf (should be interesting)

    
    You mean they still think that kids are posessed by the likes of
    Ozzy and Motley Crue? Give me a break! Why don't these people get
    it through their heads that their kids are coming home Stoned out
    of their minds or took a couple of hits of TRIP and come home and
    listen to their music on headphones? I hope when I have kids I am
    not that clueless.
    
    Gerry

    My son is 13 and quite the metalhead.  I won't let him listen to
    stuff like Slayer, because it's just too twisted.  But he's aware
    enough to know that there *is* some garbage out there, and that
    Ozzy is *not* the anti-christ.  
    
    The people that make the biggest noise about it are the people that
    are very uneducated about it.  I listen to enough of it to know
    the sick sh*t when I hear it.  These critics assume too much, and
    we all know how that story goes  ....
    
    
    					Scary

    
    I couldn't agree more...I listen to alot of Metal I've read the
    lyrics to many of bands and think that alot of the stuff is just
    to get the kids to buy the stuff and then the bands deny that it
    is satanic and that it is about jesus or something.
    
    IMO
    
    Gerry

    Don't get confused.  They may say that most kids that are into satanism
    listen to heavy metal.  They're probably right.  However, if they say
    that most heavy metal promotes satanism, that's a different story.
    It sounds like it might be an interesting meeting to go to.  Just don't
    go with your mind already made up that they will be attacking you and
    heavy metal.
    
    Chris D.

    I have an open mind about it. There might not be any mention to metal
    at all but.... I've heathat there is a local policeman there to show a
    slide show on some of the "sacrafices". This promises to be
    interesting.
    
    Jeff

    
    The way I look at it is,if your kid can turn his head around like a gas
    station sign,there might be a problem.
    
    
    
                             DEEBS

    Sorry it's taken me to get back with you. There wasn't a large part on
    heavy metal. Some groups that were mentioned though were: Maiden, Crue,
    Ozzy, Slayer, Venom, and for some reason Metallica. It was real
    interesting to see that the program didn't have alot of time devoted to
    metal. The show was really intereseting.
    
    
    Jeff

    
    
    Well, here we go.  With thanks to Buck for the title.  I suppose that
    this topic is relevant to the metal scene.  Though I don't really want
    to get drawn into it too much myself.  I just want a suitable place to
    reply to Francines note.  I tried mail but can't get through!
        
    
    > Gaz,
    
    > please remember that you cannot make remarks that any form of religion
    > is "sick".  I personally do not like or beleive in Satanism, but there
    > is a Satan's Bible, and some people read it, and some people practice
    > and beleive it.   Ranking on ones religion is a serious offense,
    > regardless of how ridiculous you may think it is.
    
    I am afraid that I disagree with you on this.  For one thing Satanism
    is, for intents and purposes, the celebration of all that is evil and
    sick in the world.  It is not a recognised religion so I can 'rank' ?
    on it as much as I like.  There is no law passed (either in this
    conference or in the real world) that says that I can't have a go at
    things like this.
    
     
    > Now, can we take this topic to Mutterings or just end it?  This is the
    > Led Zeppelin note!
    
    No.  Not and leave you the last word on it.  It is not possible to
    simply accept things like this.  No more was it possible to accept
    Sadam Husseins little incursion into Kuwait or the Yorkshire Ripper or
    Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler (known satanist), etc, etc.  If you
    think otherwise then I feel a little sorry for you.  The cult of Kali
    was outlawed in India because of the inherent evil behind it.  We in
    the West are to eager to embrace sh@t like this.
    
    Death Metal I find disgusting, but these kids are just playing with
    stuff they mostly don't have a clue about.  The same is probably true
    for other metal bands who get drawn into the slightly darkside of the 
    genre.  I try not to worry to much about influences behind people like,
    say Ozzy.  I kind of like Black Sabbath after all, but I only listen to
    the music, I don't take the sentiments at all seriously.
    
    
    
    GAZ

    I think it all comes down to Valuing Diversity.
    
    

    
    
    >  It is not a recognised religion so I can 'rank' ?
    >    on it as much as I like.  
    
    Buzzz......Wrong.  All a group of people need to do to become a
    "religion" is to say that they are.  There are, in a sense, many forms
    of Satanism that are considered "religions."
    
    >There is no law passed (either in this
    > conference or in the real world) that says that I can't have a go at
    > things like this.
    
    Please re-read Digital Policies and Procedures then, because you
    must have missed it.  Digital employees have the right to not have
    offensive, disparaging remarks made about them and their beliefs.  You
    can say how YOU feel about it, but you can't make blanket statements
    as if they were truth.
    
    Sort of the difference between saying:
    
    	X is sick and perverted.
    	I feel that X is perversion because of .....
    
    kath

    Nope.  I already covered that one Buck.  You don't value evil, you
    fight it!
    
    
    GAZ

    Re -2.  Well if what you say is true Kath!
    
    
    I am extremely sorry and appologies without reservation to all you
    satanists out there.  Now please could you turn me back into a human
    being again, I really hate these warts you know!
    
    
    GAZ

        I believe the  issue  about  `satanism'  being  a religion is
        different through the world.    Apparently, from what I heard
        on some documentary a couple  years  ago,  it is considered a
        `religion' in the United States.  
        
        It's very unnerving that such things can be allowed.  I  just
        hope they don't start knocking door to door !
        
        METALord"�

    Knock, Knock.  Open door to two rather odd looking individual dressed
    in black robes, clutching daggers in their hands and a wild look in
    their eyes.  "Excuse me Sir, we were just wondering if you have the
    time to discuss with us your misguided beliefs in God and his place
    in....."....  "Mabel get the dogs out, it's those damn Satanists
    again, touting their rubbish".
    
    
    
    Anonymous

    
    What Kath said!
    
    What Buck said!!
    
    Gaz, don't get me wrong.  I am not someone who supports the Satanist
    religion.
    
    What you all should do, before writing a sentance, is insert a well
    known relgion before it, and see how that sounds.
    
    
    Example:
    
    "Imagine if Protestants started knocking door to door"
    
    or
    
    Knock, Knock.  Open door to two rather odd looking individuals dressed
    in cashmere sweaters, clutching gefilte fish, with horns protruding out
    of their foreheads...  "Get the dogs out, its those damn Jewish people
    again!"
    
    
    Again, I am not supporting Satanists in any form, rather I am extremely
    anti-bigot!!
    
    Understand what I'm saying!!
    
    Goddess F.

Re: 39.386, 39.389

Frizkid,

>    Most people find things they don't know too much about that way.

Very true!  It applies to both sides of the fence too.
    
>            I'm not being defensive about Led Zeppelin.....because no
>    matter what the do or use to do I will alway love their music.8*)
    
>       Mike said Mr. Crowley's action of trying to make Satinism an
>    alt. to Christianity was "gross sicko man".

No I said he was a "Major sick man".  If you're going to quote someone, get
it right dude.

>    I thought it was close-minded!

I think it is close-minded to defend someone like Mr. Crowley.  I agree
with GAZ on this point.  It can be dangerous to accept everything that
comes down the pike.  That's how people become "vegetated yes-men"(tm).
You can't hide in your little corner of the world and let others decide how
you should live.  

>    If everybody jumped into one of your favorite bands and just started
>    busting.....Wouldn't you "try" to defend them??????????
                          
You just said above that you're not being defensive about LZ.  Which one
should we believe?    
    

F. Goddess
    
>    please remember that you cannot make remarks that any form of religion
>    is "sick".  I personally do not like or beleive in Satanism, but there
>    is a Satan's Bible, and some people read it, and some people practice
>    and beleive it.   Ranking on ones religion is a serious offense,
>    regardless of how ridiculous you may think it is.

...but is it a legally recognized religion or alternative to Christianity?
I may be wrong, but I don't think it is.  
    
>    I live my life the way *I* want to and *I* look at things the way I 
>    want to.......and who are you to sit in judgement of me?!?
    
I don't think GAZ is judging you.  That is his perception based on your
input.  It is the wise man that can objectively listen to counsel from his
friends and take a chance at learning something. 
    
Mike    

    
    
    Mike..  Read notes 1 through 8..

    Im my opinion, non-Christians believe ANY religion to be an
    alternative to Christianity.

�    >  It is not a recognised religion so I can 'rank' ?
�    >    on it as much as I like.  
�    
�    Buzzz......Wrong.  All a group of people need to do to become a
�    "religion" is to say that they are.  There are, in a sense, many forms
�    of Satanism that are considered "religions."
    
    When a church is officially recognized by the U.S.A as an alternative
    to Christianity, they usually received all the benefits that come with
    it (i.e., non-profit tax status).  I don't think the "religion" in
    question has achieved that.
    
    Mike

>        It's very unnerving that such things can be allowed.  I  just
>        hope they don't start knocking door to door !
    
    They're more likely to come at night to kidnap family pets, or in
    severe cases, the children we see on milk cartons.
    
    Mike

    Sounds like the perfect answer for those who don't like pesky pets or
    annoying little children!  ];^> 

    
    
    But Mike..
    
    I am sure there are Digital employees who belong to a religion that
    hasn't been recognized by the U.S.
    
    I have no idea if Satanism is recognized by the US.. also there are
    houses of worship that have been built for that reason..
    
    Wonder how you could look it up!
    
    Goddess

        I believe  the show was something like `48 Hours' that I saw.
        They were saying  that alot of the satanists were joining the
        Armed Forces because they  were  somehow  protected from such
        things as `hate crimes' After some controversy, it was argued
        that  it  is  a    SO-CALLED  `religion'  by  the  courts  or
        government, I'm not sure.  I can't remember their reasons for
        deeming it as such. . .
        
        If one truly wanted to  know,  I guess you could always ask a
        lawyer ! :^)
        
        METALord"'

    It was stated somewhere earlier, by Buck I believe, that different
    countries have differing views on the so-called religion of satanism (I
    will give it a small 's' from now on).  I know that satanism is
    definitely NOT a recognised religion in the UK.  It enjoys none of the
    benefits of other religions in this sense.  I was not aware that it is
    a recognised religion in USA.  It is my opinion (note phrasing please)
    that anyone who supports a cult of evil really needs to take a good
    look at him/herself.
    
    We are not talking about sects like 'the moonies' here, who can best be
    described as 'shady' or 'odd'.  So far as I am aware, they are not into
    ritual sacrifice or deflowering young virgins (or are they?) or even
    worshipping demons.  The cult of satanism is into these sort of things,
    anyone think that this is OK behaviour??  I don't think it is
    eccentric, I think it is unnacceptable and evil!  Oh yes, and I believe
    that the Moonies have had THEIR religious status revoked!  Is this
    true?
    
    
    GAZ

    Oops one last thought here.  Who was that idiot that once said
    something like:
    
       "I don't agree with what you are saying, but I defend to the death
        your right to say it."
    
     Voltaire I believe.  Completely correct.  People can say what they
    like so long as it is not defammotory(sp?).  However, they do not and
    should not have the same rights when it comes to DOING!

    Interesting topic, glad I was in a scanning mode.
    
    There is one thing that you have thing you have to understand, not all
    satanism is inherently evil based (on the surface that is). There is
    one strain that has been around for some time and has found its way
    into many christain believers. The theory is based on the concept of
    satan leaving heaven based on his jealosy for Jesus and not for power
    or trying to overthrow God. Remember sunday school--oh yes I know I
    do--Lucifer was 2nd to God untill Jesus came along. Many believe that
    Lucifer just left to set up his own kingdom and his acts against Jesus
    in the New Testement were based on jealosy and not evil. This belief
    is more wide spead than people think. I agree with one of the earlier
    noters, most of the bands that dwell on the satanic concept really
    don't know what they are dealing with and are just doing it for the PR. 
    Crue, Cooper, Slayer--just to name a few, and alot of the music was
    just in tune with the time during the late sixties (fight the
    establishment=Christianity) the seventies and early eighties when
    satanic interest was at a peak (The Exorcist and other occult based
    movies and books) thus powering lyrics from acts like Sabbeth and Ozzy
    solo. I am a HUGE Ozzy fan and being a preachers kid (you know how bad
    us PK's are) and an intermediate authority on the occult, most of
    Ozzy's songs are moody and dark but if you know what to look for you
    would realize that he really just trying to answer questions on
    satanism and not make statements unlike say King Diamond and Celtic
    Frost(sp?). Just enjoy and dont blow your head off or anyone else's is
    my motto.
    
                                                      Nate
    

        I believe the only part that was truly argued about the whole
        thing had to  do  with  the  human  rights  and  animal right
        activists.  Kinda' makes sense. . .
        
        RE: `Door to door'
        
        They (insert merchandise/religion/etc) can try  to  drill  it
        down my throat by knocking on  my  door,  but they'll get the
        same treatment that other `sales people' get.  A slammed door
        in their faces !  See, I'm not  bigoted.    .    .I treat ALL
        sales  people  the  exact  same way regardless of their  sex,
        gender,  race,  religion or veteran status !  Kids I am  more
        lienient with though.  .  .call me a softy, since I know most
        of them in the neighborhood anyway, but even then you have to
        be careful cause some people  USE children to get to the soft
        side of people.  (Oh yeah, that's not  supposed to read `Most
        of the kids in the neighborhood ARE mine' either !  :^P )
        
        METALord"�

    
    
    Re:
    
    .18  When you referenced "Crue" were you saying Motley Crue's "Shout at
    the Devil" LP?  That song means to shout at the devil as in anti-devil.
    
    Re:
    
    .19 Matt I'm not saying anyone is a bigot around here.. you just have
    to be careful what you say sometimes..  I beleive Satanism is wrong
    myself.. but you have to be careful not to offend any religios order,
    especially in a corporate based worldwide reading file.  Myself,
    even though I may violently disagree on someone elses way of living,
    try to treat that person as I myself would want to be treated.. that
    is just MO though.
    
    Look at Hitler, or slavery during times of the Civil War..  While most
    people may agree that Satanists should all be hung or thrown in jail or
    expedited, you have to see how that way of thinking is wrong.  After
    all, this is America.
    
    Well, thats enough of that!!
    
    
    Back to whatever:
    
    I seem to remember clicking through channels one day and they had some
    Satanists on Phil Donahue or something.. this married couple.. and from
    what I remember them saying is that first of all they ran this church
    or he started the Satan's church somewhere in California.. and second
    they were all pissed off because Satanists were having trouble getting
    into the armed forces, just like homosexuals.  Whatever this means!!
    
    Goddess F.

    
    I wouldn't say that Satanism is wrong or right,its purely up to the 
    individual concerned.I personally do not believe in god or the devil
    and would never knock anyones beliefs but it bugs the arse off me when
    people think because I've got long hair and listen to rock music that
    I'm immediately gonna do drugs or worship Satan.In my mind its these
    narrow minded cretins that are more dangerous than anything.
    
                                     feelin' mean
                                        Staynz

    RE: .126 (PK)
    
    I'd like to know what denominations believe that jealous rivalry fable
    between Jesus and Lucifer.
    
    Mike

    I didnt want to say anything.. but I would question what
    church/regligion taught that (I KNOW i didnt** sllep **that much thru 
    church :* )   )
    
    		wendy o'
    
    
    

    Lucifer was an Angel. In Isaih 13-14 there is a prophecy against
    Babylon. In verse 14.12 we read (NIV version) ��How you have fallen from
    Heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! �� You said in your heart, "I
    will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I
    will sit enthroned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights
    of the sacred mountain. v14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the most high." v15 But you are brought down to
    the grave, to the depths of the pit.
    
    So Lucifer's revolt wasn't jealousy against Jesus, rather it was more a
    power trip to overthrow God himself. 
    
    I'll do some more research this weekend. 
    
    
    
    Revalation 9.1  12.7

    re/ last
    
    
    thanks!!  
    
    you better do some more research, i never heard of this.. i guess i was
    sleeping to much in church ;*( 
    anyways, i'm diffinately checking this out tho'
    oh yea i think i remeber how this goes ...
    
    later
    
    			wendy o'
    
    
    
    

    OH i can see it now, this note will trun into the 
    DEATH/OCCULT/RELIGION/SUICIDE LYRICS TO LIVE BY :*) in HM
    	[metal from the darkside ]
    
    			wendy o'
    
    
    
    

    I had that exact same passage in mind.  That is why I asked what
    denomination preaches that false teaching.
    
    Most excellent work Jesse!  
    
    Mike (who's impressed)

    Well, basically it suprised the hell (no pun intended) out of me also.
    I am a student of philosophy it was in philosophy classes inwhich I
    heard this perticular concept and if you think about it you can
    understand how I heard about it in philosophy class. 
    
    .132
    I know that verse well but anyone who knows religion well, especially
    when biblicaly based, people can read just about anything into the
    scripture and I agree with you.
    
    So far as being taught as a Christianity based concept, I did not say
    that, I said it now was taught as a "satanic" concept. The only
    contrary to this was that I heard (now remember I just heard this and
    am not trying to piss anyone off so don't write me any hate mail) that
    this concept was a strain in early catholicism and I do mean early,
    like 15-1700's. Based on non-biblical rationalization one could
    understand the jealosy between Lucifer and Jesus because the bible is
    just an infinite story written in finite terms for our understanding
    and Lucifer once being 2nd to God I'm sure he knew of Jesus emanate
    creation regardless of the time frame set up by the bible.
    
    
                                          Nate

    This reply isn't generally to do with HM, but I think (and this is a
    personal thing coz I have always been a bit cynical) that when looking
    at the Christianity v's Satanism thing.... every one should read Terry
    Pratchetts GOODOMANS.
    
    It is not knocking or Glorifying either Christianity or Satanism... it
    seems to look at it from a different perspective.
    
    What I have learned over the years is that Good & Bad ain't Black &
    white, just a very big gray area.  It depends on your perspective.  I
    haven't read the bible in years, I don't feel I need to read it again 
    (though I have read certain passages to cross reference the above
    mentioned book).
    
    This isn't coming across very well when I type out what I am actually
    thinking (there again some people say that nothing would from my mind),
    it just that I can't see how people can be so easily led.  I thought
    that thinking for oneself was the best way to figure things out, and
    never taking things at face value.
    
    All this stuff you read about, satanic lyrics and stuff.  I find them
    amusing but nothing more (product of a very limited imagination IMHO). 
    What really gets me is when certain types of people give metel a bad
    rep just cause they can't understand something.  Hell I don't
    understand Quantum Mechanics but I can't say it was the devil's work.
    
    Bonzo (I think I just rambled there... If it dosen't make sense it's
    coz I'm just back from Holiday)

    
    Last night there was some metal-bashing show on the Family channel.
    I called their 800 number and gave them a real big piece of my mind.
    It was so one sided and misinformed I wanted to throw the TV set
    out the window.

    
    	RE: -1 You beat me to it,  I was tempted to call too.
	
	I just happened to catch one of those these-bands-are-corrupting
	your-children-type TV shows last night.

	The general message was "these bands are evil and you should send 
	us your money (they call it a gift) for our books and videos so you 
	can learn more about the lyrical content/powerful messages contained
	in their songs".

	Some of the featured performers were Danzig, Jane's Addiction, Gwar, 
	and Faith No More.

	They were particular critical to Spin magazine for writing about these 
	bands in a favorable manner.  

	I didn't catch the name of the show.  from what Pete says it was
    	the Family channel.  You're right it was so one-sided.

	- Jim

    
    
    	Hey Pete? what did they have to say when you called?!
    
    	JW-

    
    They didn't have a chance, I hung up after I was done venting. 8-)

    
    
    
    
    Janes' Addiction?!?!  Faith No More?!?!?   How ridiculous!!
    
    You'd think they would at least pick an easy one like Sabbath!  8*)
    
    
    Goddess

>    What I have learned over the years is that Good & Bad ain't Black &
>    white, just a very big gray area.  It depends on your perspective.  I
    
    ...and what I've learned over the years is that this world's problems
    are the result of too many gray areas.  Nobody want's to stand up and
    be responsible for right and wrong anymore!
    
    BTW - I went to the Heavy Metal church on Saturday night.  A friend's
    band was headlining their open band night so I took the opportunity to
    check both out.  This church is AWESOME!

    This discussion reminds me when TIME mag did a cover story on "evil"
    a few weeks ago.  The cover was in all black, with black lettering
    which said "EVIL".  Just goes to show that even TIME mag is dumb enough
    to sterotype the color black with the concept of "evil".  I'm sure
    People_of_color did not appreciate the association either!! 
    
    It's attitudes like this that keep us in the 1950s!
    

    Re: -1
    
    I don't know who you were talking too, but it is pretty ridiculous to
    base the concept of evil on color alone.
    
    BTW - don't knock the '50s.  They didn't have half the problems we have
    today.  Not EVERYTHING advances over time!  
    
    It's attitudes like this that keep us apathetic to our world's
    conditions as it gradually degrades.

    
    
    
    The 50's might not have had half the problems, because they were less
    knowledgeable to what was a problem.  There was no such thing as
    bigotry, for example, so it wasn't a problem, even though it was
    rampant.  
    
    Buckelee - you should write a letter to TIME!!
    
    Goddess F.

>    The 50's might not have had half the problems, because they were less
>    knowledgeable to what was a problem.  There was no such thing as
>    bigotry, for example, so it wasn't a problem, even though it was
>    rampant.  
    
    I'll grant you that, though it wasn't what I had in mind.  I was
    thinking along the lines of AIDS (and many other STD's), drug abuse
    (especially down to the grade school level), blatant occultism,
    abduction of children, various forms of pollution, etc.
    
    The world didn't experience these problems, at today's alarming levels,
    until our generation ('80s).  The state of the world shows up in
    various forms of art too, including music.  Maybe that's what the
    Family channel program was indirectly pointing out.
    
    Mike

    
    >The world didn't experience these problems, at today's alarming levels,
    >until our generation ('80s).  The state of the world shows up in
    >various forms of art too, including music.  Maybe that's what the
    >Family channel program was indirectly pointing out.
    
    Art imitates life!
    
    >I'll grant you that, though it wasn't what I had in mind.  I was
    >thinking along the lines of AIDS (and many other STD's), drug abuse
    >(especially down to the grade school level), blatant occultism,
    >abduction of children, various forms of pollution, etc.
    
    True...all of the above are pesky problems, but along the lines of
    Goddess' reply, if this country, which is built on the words of the
    consitution, which states 'all men are created equal', does not back
    it's statement of basic human rights, then we have a much greater
    problem IMHO.

>    Goddess' reply, if this country, which is built on the words of the
>    consitution, which states 'all men are created equal', does not back
>    it's statement of basic human rights, then we have a much greater
>    problem IMHO.
    
    Also, you have to remember that the men that wrote those words were
    Christians and based our foundations on Biblical principles, including 
    the quote above.  The people that I'm sure you are referring to are
    already covered under those basic human rights as much as we are.
    Are their needs greater than ours that they need special rights that
    are diametrically opposed to the Biblical principles that this country
    was founded upon?
    
    Mike

    -1
    
    Yes, in some ways.  Re: back in the 50s...women didn't have a say
    in much just because they were women.  It took their movement to change
    all of that (for the better, IMHO).  Blacks didn't have any respect or
    social power in the 50s until the whole black movement started.  All
    this repression based on gender, race, etc...are these the "foundations 
    on Biblical principles" you were referring too?!?
    
    This is where I kind of have a problem with your earlier comment
    (loosly quoted here) that "we're straying from our moral principles and
    becoming desensitized to the decaying society around us".  Just as it
    now seems silly to think that at one time, women and blacks could not
    vote, or have the basic rights of white men, becuase of their
    difference, is the same principles I base my beliefs on continued power
    for all minority groups.  While this may be in direct contradition with
    "Biblical priciples", I feel my stance is well founded.
                              

>    this repression based on gender, race, etc...are these the "foundations 
>    on Biblical principles" you were referring too?!?
    
    Not at all.  Since you mentioned before that you do social work for
    homosexuals, I thought that was what your "equal rights" was alluding
    to.  Man's oppression against women and non-caucasians was his own
    doing.  As I stated before, the "all men created equal" Biblical quote
    was twisted by man's racial predjudice against non-caucasians. 
    Predjudice IS NOT scriptural.  In the case of women, read Genesis
    2:18-25 and Ephesians 5:22-33,6:1-4.  These are regarded as some of
    the best passages on Man-Woman relationships.  In Genesis 2:18, God
    said he was going to create a "help meet" for Adam.  The original
    Hebrew translations refer to a "companion fit for" a man.  In Genesis
    2:22 where God takes the rib from Adam to make the first woman, there
    is a great significance in the symbol of the rib.  God used to rib to
    show that women are to be man's EQUAL.  This is what its all about
    kids!  Men & Women meet each other's needs as equals!  God didn't take 
    from Adam's head to make the woman superior, or from his feet for us to 
    dominate over women.  As for Ephesians 5:22-33, many lose the meaning
    here too.  Wives are called to submit to their husbands, but people
    don't realize that a woman can't submit to a man that she doesn't love.
    Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church and
    gave himself for it, and also called to love their wives as their own
    bodies.  You cannot bestow a greater love on your mate.  God knows that
    the male tends to be self-centered, but giving this love to your mate,
    allows the woman to respect and submit to her husband and completes the
    cycle.  
    
    Anyway, I don't expect everyone to comprehend this, but does this sound 
    like something man has been following prior to the women's liberation
    movement?  I'm sure some decent men have practiced these beliefs, but
    in general I'd say men have been missing out on the potential for a
    beautiful relationship with their wives.
    
>    for all minority groups.  While this may be in direct contradition with
>    "Biblical priciples", I feel my stance is well founded.
    
    Again, see above.  Man, for whatever reason you wish, has twisted and
    perverted the guidelines God has given us.
    
    Mike

    
    		
    
    	re. heiser..
    
    
    who said that?? are you reading Ghosts notes or WHAT there DUDE!!!!!
    
    
    
    			wendy o'
    
    
		


	
    
    	
    
    

    
    Mike.
    
    �...and what I've learned over the years is that this world's problems
    �are the result of too many gray areas.  Nobody want's to stand up and
    �be responsible for right and wrong anymore!
    
    I would have thought that everyone is responsible for their own
    right and wrong doing.  I had a great experience a number of years ago
    where I had a door step minister, preaching to me about how my life was
    not following the scriptures, and that I should be more like him.  He
    was later arrested for harrasing women and his excuse... God told me to
    teach them the errors of their ways...!!!
    
    BULLSH*T!  God did not tell him anything.  He was and still is
    personally responsible for his own actions.  Hiding behind the
    Church/Establishment/Etc dosen't cut it with me.  So basically I agree
    with what you said in 109.143 Mike, but I believe that it's people who
    make the difference.  You get good, bad, and gray people, but it's
    their attitudes to each other that causes problems.... As `Bill' would
    say....
    
    "Be Excellent to Each Other".
    
    
    Bonzo
    

    i was reading an article in Spin Mag. the other day that was rather
    interesting...it seems that most of the new Death Metal is coming out
    of Florida these days and the new rage is for the bands to throw cat
    guts (yes CAT GUTS!) into the audience and then the audience throws it
    back on the stage so the guts stick to the band's suits of armour with
    spikes all over... they really get off on the stench of rotting flesh.
    
    F*ckin' sicko man!

>>    this repression based on gender, race, etc...are these the "foundations 
>>    on Biblical principles" you were referring too?!?
    
   > Not at all.  Since you mentioned before that you do social work for
   > homosexuals, I thought that was what your "equal rights" was alluding
   > to. 
    
    Woah, Mikey...lets get something straight here.  I do volunteer AIDS
    work.  AIDS IS NOT A GAY DISEASE!!!  I see kids, teenage girls, gay
    men,  IV drug users, women, men, lesbians, people from all walks of
    life! In fact, the highest rate of infection/risk group are currently
    IV drug users (1.1 million amercians are IV users, and 25% of them are
    already infected with HIV...in NYC, 60% of the city's IV drug users are
    infected).  That should give you an idea how HIV will weave it's way
    into the heterosexual community VERY quickly!
    
    B.

    re:143 
    
    Is the church your talking about in South Carolina, When I was
    down there on vacation I went to a Heavy Metal Church, I think
    it was called The Home Church of Rock n Roll, awsome place they
    had some pretty good bands.
    
    Tony
    

    re: Bonzo
    
>    �...and what I've learned over the years is that this world's problems
>    �are the result of too many gray areas.  Nobody want's to stand up and
>    �be responsible for right and wrong anymore!
>    
>    I would have thought that everyone is responsible for their own
>    right and wrong doing. 
    
    I think that's exactly what he was trying to say!  He wasn't saying
    anyone should take responsibility for someone ELSE'S problems.  
    
    gh

    
    	'pril said I should post this here after she read 'em, so I will.
    
Title:   Armageddon. 
Lyrics:  Peter Cook
Music:	 Steve Garry

He has sent the angel of death,
to bring the evil one forth.
Seven bells raises Him,
The battle has begun.

He overtakes the slaves of hell.     
Satan's house is falling well.     
Devil's minion's cry in defeat,
His power, they will meet.
        
The holy torment the ghosts of sin.
Darkness infected, He will win.
"He rules supreme", 
I hear Satan scream.

Demons fall as Angel's thrive.
Satan's worshipers take their lives.
Haunting Hell, the angels prevail,
Life has come, Satan has failed.

>    where I had a door step minister, preaching to me about how my life was
>    not following the scriptures, and that I should be more like him.  He
>    was later arrested for harrasing women and his excuse... God told me to
>    teach them the errors of their ways...!!!
    
    That's why God gave us his word (the Bible) to follow.  Placing your
    trust in man will always lead to disappoinment.  I'm sure the people
    that supported the ministries of Swaggart & Bakker will vouch for that!
    
>    F*ckin' sicko man!
    
    yeah, but at least they're using cats ;-)
    
>    Woah, Mikey...lets get something straight here.  I do volunteer AIDS
    
    Yeah I get your drift, but who is seeking the special rights above and
    beyond what we all have:  the Gays or the AIDS stricken?
    
    As for AIDS coming into the heterosexual community, *MOST* of it is a
    result of people doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first
    place.  You reap what you sow!
    
>    Is the church your talking about in South Carolina, When I was
>    down there on vacation I went to a Heavy Metal Church, I think
    
    The one I went to is in Phoenix and is called David's Cave.  They are
    affiliated with Calvary Chapel out of Costa Mesa, CA.  I've been to
    that Calvary Chapel too and it isn't a coincidence that a LARGE number
    of Christian rockers (famous ones too) attend there.  Very music
    oriented!
    
>    I think that's exactly what he was trying to say!  He wasn't saying
>    anyone should take responsibility for someone ELSE'S problems.  
    
    gh, thanks dude!
    
    Mike

    Re: Armageddon lyrics
    
    I like it, but one question comes up.  Who is the first line referring
    to?  The rest is obvious.
    
>   He has sent the angel of death,
    
    BTW - Anyone know the lyrics to Maiden's "Number of the Beast"?  I
    always wanted to read them.
    
    Mike

    Mike, I'll post them tomorrow...
    
    Coolness Pete!

    
    re: .160
    
    Refer's to God himself.

    >Yeah I get your drift, but who is seeking the special rights above and
    >beyond what we all have:  the Gays or the AIDS stricken?
    
    Both, actually, but for different purposes.  AIDS activists are
    lobbying for anti-discrimination laws, more lienient regulations from
    the FDA on experimental drugs, restrictions placed on those companies
    currently marketing drugs for AIDS patients (their price hikes are
    going through the roof), needle exhange programs for addicts, Intl
    travel restriction appeal, etc.
    
    Gay rights activists are lobbying for basic human like housing,
    anti-job discrimination, insurance coverage for life spouses, etc.
    
    IMHO, I can see both groups needs, and personally don't feel either
    are asking for "special rights above and beyond what we all have",
    as you so put it.
    
    B. 

    
>>    That's why God gave us his word (the Bible) to follow.  Placing your
>>    trust in man will always lead to disappoinment.  I'm sure the people
>>    that supported the ministries of Swaggart & Bakker will vouch for that!
    
     Is this not rather a sweeping statement to make Mikey.  Who are you to
    decide that all men are disappointing?  Open mouth and hold back foot
    next time please.  I hope that the people who were disillusioned by S &
    B (and yes we even heard of them in Europe) don't think the way you do
    as it is not very christian!
    
    >    F*ckin' sicko man!
    
    >>   yeah, but at least they're using cats ;-)
    
         Way sicko Mike!  I don't like cats either but to joke about it is
         a wee bit overdone mate!
    
    >    Woah, Mikey...lets get something straight here.  I do volunteer
         AIDS
    
    >>  Yeah I get your drift, but who is seeking the special rights above and
    >>  beyond what we all have:  the Gays or the AIDS stricken?
    
        I don't think that you got his drift at all!  It was perfectly
        clear to me that he wasn't seeking preferential treatment for AIDS
        sufferers, but simply a fair crack of the whip!
    
    >>  As for AIDS coming into the heterosexual community, *MOST* of it is a
    >>  result of people doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first
    >>  place.  You reap what you sow!
    
        How biblical of you!  But I suspect not even close, as if
        capitalising the word MOST justifies you coming out with claptrap
        like this (SNORT).  I also suspect that you are out of both your 
        emotional experience and your intellectual depth in this matter.  I 
        certainly am!
    
    
    GAZ
>    Is the church your talking about in South Carolina, When I was
>    down there on vacation I went to a Heavy Metal Church, I think
    
    The one I went to is in Phoenix and is called David's Cave.  They are
    affiliated with Calvary Chapel out of Costa Mesa, CA.  I've been to
    that Calvary Chapel too and it isn't a coincidence that a LARGE number
    of Christian rockers (famous ones too) attend there.  Very music
    oriented!
    
>    I think that's exactly what he was trying to say!  He wasn't saying
>    anyone should take responsibility for someone ELSE'S problems.  
    
    gh, thanks dude!
    
    Mike

    Oh yes, and as a final killer for you!  Wasn't Christ first and
    foremost a man!
    
    
    GAZ

    
    I can't believe they do that with cats. I love cats. They are WAY
    superior to dogs.
    
    I mean, if they were REAL men, they would use dogs because their
    inards are bigger. 8-)
    
    [it's a joke, son!]

    
    
    I don't think anyone can make the judgement or assumption that God
    decided to punish these people for doing something "they shouldn't have
    done in the first place" with a fatal disease.
    
    First of all, everyone's interpretation of the bible is different, and
    there are *different* bibles.  
    
    You can make the decision that the religion you practice is the correct
    one or "right" one for you, but only God can tell what is the absolute
    "right" religion.  I can understand if you beleive that your religion
    is correct.
    
    Homosexuality or drug abuse may or may not be wrong.  It may be
    something that is forgiven.   At any rate, there are many different
    theories.
    
    Again, my main point here is that noone can assume or explaine God's
    actions.  That is, if there is a God.
    
    Goddess F.

    Maybe someday when we meet face to face, we can chat about this.  This
    medium is obviously causing some hard feelings and miscommunications.
    I know I'm not the best of communicators.
    
    but anyway...
    
>    IMHO, I can see both groups needs, and personally don't feel either
>    are asking for "special rights above and beyond what we all have",
>    as you so put it.
    
    I see your point and respect it, although I don't 100% agree with
    everything.
    
>               -< Give us a break, come down off your pedestal! >-
>     Is this not rather a sweeping statement to make Mikey.  Who are you to
>    decide that all men are disappointing?  Open mouth and hold back foot
>    next time please.  
    
    First of all, I'm not on a pedestal.  I'm human and make mistakes as
    much as anyone else.  The Bible calls us to place our trust in God. 
    What I was saying there is that man isn't perfect and somebody will be
    disappointed no matter what.  Can you honestly say that no person has
    ever let you down?  Seems to me that we may both have feet in our
    mouths.
    
    > I hope that the people who were disillusioned by S &
>    B (and yes we even heard of them in Europe) don't think the way you do
>    as it is not very christian!
    
    See above.  They let an awful lot of people down.  I feel sorry for
    them, and I can pray for them, but I was never associated with their
    ministries.  
    
>         Way sicko Mike!  I don't like cats either but to joke about it is
>         a wee bit overdone mate!
    
    Did you have your coffee today?  I even put a smiley in there.  It's
    funny how you didn't rag on Pete for his remark about the dogs.
    
>        How biblical of you!  But I suspect not even close, as if
>        capitalising the word MOST justifies you coming out with claptrap
>        like this (SNORT).  I also suspect that you are out of both your 
>        emotional experience and your intellectual depth in this matter.  I 
>        certainly am!
    
    You can set the Bible aside for this one if you wish.  There are
    universal laws of sowing & reaping that apply to all.  I don't care
    what religious orientation you have!  If you do a lousy job for DEC, 
    you may not have a job very long.  If you cheat on your wife, you may 
    not be married long.  If you play with fire, you're going to get burned.  
    If you use dirty needles, you will get sick and have a good chance at 
    getting AIDS.  It's pretty cut and dry...
    
>                        -< Just to put my seal on it! >-
>    Oh yes, and as a final killer for you!  Wasn't Christ first and
>    foremost a man!
    
    No he was God incarnate!  If he was just a man, millions of Christians
    and religious people around the world have been wasting their time for
    milleniums!  If you wish, I can back it up scripturally.
    
>    decided to punish these people for doing something "they shouldn't have
>    done in the first place" with a fatal disease.
    
    God's not punishing anyone.  We have free will (freedom of choice). 
    They chose to do what they've done and are now reaping the results of
    their actions.
    
>    First of all, everyone's interpretation of the bible is different, and
>    there are *different* bibles.  
    
    It's possible, but there aren't very many translations that go from the
    original Hebrew and Greek directly to English.  Most of what you call
    *different* bibles are just modern English revisions of the King James
    version.
    
>    You can make the decision that the religion you practice is the correct
>    one or "right" one for you, but only God can tell what is the absolute
>    "right" religion.  I can understand if you beleive that your religion
>    is correct.
    
    First of all, I don't practice a religion.  Secondly, you left out a
    third option above.  God can tell you which one is right.
    
>    Again, my main point here is that noone can assume or explaine God's
>    actions.  That is, if there is a God.
    
    ...and nobody can blame the results of their choices on God.  If you
    make a decision, you are responsible.
    
    Mike

    
    
    I mostly agree with you Mikey.  The comment I was referring to was the
    one where (loosely quoted) you had made some direct or indirect
    reference (can't remember, I'll have to check back) on that because
    someone had homosexual sex, and contracted AIDS, they were "reaping
    what they sow."  i.e., this is God's way of punishing them, or
    something to that effect.
    
    There are many people that beleive (one good friend of mine who is in
    bible study) that there is nowhere in the bible that says homosexuality
    is committing a sin against God.  There are actual homosexual
    ministers, reverands, and rabbi's.  Not many, but there interpretation
    of the bible is different, obviously!
    
    Also, from what I know about Judiasm (which is not much at all!) it is
    beleived that Jesus was just a man.
    
    Goddess

    Just for clarification, I have no hard feelings over this discussion,
    you, your views, etc.  My noting style may seem a tad direct at times,
    but I respect your views, and that's fine.  I may not agree with them,
    but isn't that what the spirit of VoD is all about anyways?
    

    I am sorry Mike, but I am finding your high-handed approach here a bit
    tough too swallow!  This is funny, because usually I follow your point
    of view on these matters!
    
    Sticking a joke in about dead cats while otherwise sermonising is out
    of place.  That is the reason I didn't 'rag Pete'.  He was simply
    making a joke and was not trying to lecture us in the process.  Any way
    the coffee here is terrible!
    
    I am not going to try and argue the scriptures with you, I don't have
    the ability, but I was always under the impression that Jesus was first
    a man then a god.  It is probably open to interpretation though!
    
    I think the statement 'to reap what you sow' always seems to come from
    those who believe they hold the moral high ground.  I find it a trifle
    snotty to say the least!  Especially when young babies are born with
    AIDS!  Did they reap what they sowed?  Did the Ethiopians caught
    between two bands of thugs 'reap what they sowed'.  Me, I think that it
    is time that people threw away such pathetic ideas and started showing
    a wee bit more compassion!
    
    
    
    GAZ

    >snotty to say the least!  Especially when young babies are born with
    >AIDS!  Did they reap what they sowed?  Did the Ethiopians caught
    >between two bands of thugs 'reap what they sowed'.  Me, I think that it
    
    I guess they fall out of that window of "MOST"...

    Re: .169
    
    F, 
    
>    There are many people that beleive (one good friend of mine who is in
>    bible study) that there is nowhere in the bible that says homosexuality
>    is committing a sin against God.  There are actual homosexual
>    ministers, reverands, and rabbi's.  Not many, but there interpretation
>    of the bible is different, obviously!
    
    Yeah I've heard of "Gays for Christ".  I'm not sure what based their
    beliefs on, but the KJV has plenty of references to it and it is called 
    sin in every case.  The Episcopalian (sp?) denomination was one of the
    recent protestant denominations to discuss ordaining homosexuals.  They
    had their convention here last month and it received quite a bit of
    press.
    
>    Also, from what I know about Judiasm (which is not much at all!) it is
>    beleived that Jesus was just a man.
    
    Well all the protestant and pentecostal denominations are
    Judeo-Christian and none of them believe that.  If you think about it,
    they're wasting their time if that were true.
    
    Re: .170
    
>    Just for clarification, I have no hard feelings over this discussion,
>    you, your views, etc.  My noting style may seem a tad direct at times,
>    but I respect your views, and that's fine.  I may not agree with them,
>    but isn't that what the spirit of VoD is all about anyways?
    
    Aw Buck, you only say it cuz you mean it! ;-)  (nonsequitir joke)
    
    Re: .171
    
    GAZ,
    
>    I am sorry Mike, but I am finding your high-handed approach here a bit
>    tough too swallow!  This is funny, because usually I follow your point
>    of view on these matters!
    
    Sorry if I'm coming across as high-handed.  That really isn't my style.
    
>    Sticking a joke in about dead cats while otherwise sermonising is out
>    of place.  That is the reason I didn't 'rag Pete'.  He was simply
>    making a joke and was not trying to lecture us in the process.  Any way
>    the coffee here is terrible!
    
    Oh so now I need a new personality because I like to tell sick jokes
    while having a discussion! ;-)
    
>    I am not going to try and argue the scriptures with you, I don't have
>    the ability, but I was always under the impression that Jesus was first
>    a man then a god.  It is probably open to interpretation though!
    
    Well, in addition to what I mentioned before, a mere man couldn't have
    done all the things he did.  Even if you ignore the miracles, how many
    men do you know that went into the desert for 40 days & nights without
    food or water?  You don't appreciate that until you live in the desert.
    
�    >snotty to say the least!  Especially when young babies are born with
�    >AIDS!  Did they reap what they sowed?  Did the Ethiopians caught
�    >between two bands of thugs 'reap what they sowed'.  Me, I think that it
    
>    I guess they fall out of that window of "MOST"...
    
    Exactly!  Ryan was a perfect example of the exception.  Don't ask me
    why it happens, but I don't believe God can be blamed for it.  That's
    like blaming God for wars and everything that comes with it.  Man is
    the one that makes the decision to start them in the first place.
    
    Mike

>    Oh so now I need a new personality because I like to tell sick jokes
>    while having a discussion! ;-)
    
    Get a personality, Mike!

    can I get a life, job, and a new Marshall � stack too? 

    If you're a good boy (and you have about $1250 for the new Marshall)...
    8^)
    

    Well my son, you have my permission on the first 2.  Afraid you will
    have to ask your wife for the last!
    
    
    
    GAZ

    Don't ask!
    
    Just buy it.  If she complains, turn up until you can't hear her
    anymore...

    re -1.  thus spaketh a single man if ever I heard one!
    
    
    Little does he know!
    
    
    GAZ

    
    
       We're all searchin' for deliverance
       when there ain't no where to run
       Lay your spirit down easy
       we're always gonna be
       a little lost sometimes.
    
    
    
    GAZ 

    >Exactly!  Ryan was a perfect example of the exception. 
    
    Not to tangent here, but it's somewhat relative in concept...
    
    What bugs me about the whole AIDS pandemic is the public reaction to it
    is so severe, and segratory.  Example...that young woman in FLA who is
    lying on her death bed, infected 3 years ago by her dentist...Ryan
    White...the woman who was raped by an HIV+ IV drug user...Liz
    Glaser...they all the get the press, they all get the sorrow, etc.  But
    what about the gay man, or hopelessly drug dependant (you can't say
    those people are capable of reason)?  They deserved a fatal disease? 
    They deserve the scorn and abandonment?  I don't think so.  None of
    them "deserve" it.  It really makes me mad when I hear about people
    burning other people's home, beatings, grave desicration (most noteably
    in Ryan White's case), and general hate crimes.  People don't treat Cancer
    victims this way?!  How ironic it was to read in the news of that man
    in NYC who used to hang around in front of Hospice's which treated AIDS
    victims, then would bash them as they left the treatment center.  He
    bashed one too many people, and wound up infecting himself with HIV.
    Now, he's on the other side of the fence, and life has taken on a whole
    new outlook for him.  Funny how it takes something like that to produce
    change in people, eh?
    
    This pi$$-poor attitude is std fare by far too many people IMHO, and
    it won't solve anything.  This includes all religious groups involved.
    IMO, a good christian is not one to hate someone for an illness!

    re: .179
    
    No way, old married fart here!

    Re: Coop
    
    He's still married and does that?  Wow, what a woman! ;-)  If I bought
    the Marshall and then cranked it, I'd be in the dog house for sure!

>If I bought
>    the Marshall and then cranked it, I'd be in the dog house for sure
    
    Make sure you take your guitar and the Marshall with you!
    
    gh

>    Glaser...they all the get the press, they all get the sorrow, etc.  But
>    what about the gay man, or hopelessly drug dependant (you can't say
>    those people are capable of reason)?  They deserved a fatal disease? 
>    They deserve the scorn and abandonment?  I don't think so.  None of
>    them "deserve" it.  It really makes me mad when I hear about people
    
    Nobody deserves anything like that.  We're all guilty, but I wish
    people would think about long term consequences before making certain
    decisions.  It's funny, 10 years ago, I'd NEVER say something like
    that.  Some people have to learn the hard way...
    
>    This pi$$-poor attitude is std fare by far too many people IMHO, and
>    it won't solve anything.  This includes all religious groups involved.
>    IMO, a good christian is not one to hate someone for an illness!

    Very true.  *MOST* (there's that word again ;-))
    mainline/traditionalist religious organizations are too judgemental to
    do anybody any good (the one's that say "hate the sin, love the
    sinner").  Especially of their "own kind".  Look at all the excrement 
    Stryper had to put up with!  I know the store owner in southern California 
    where they buy most of their equipment (at least they did prior to "To 
    Hell with the Devil").  He told me they weren't even allowed to play in 
    their own church!
    
    I really caught flack the first time I brought my Ibanez RG550 to
    church.  I heard sarcastic statements like, "...that must be a rock 'n'
    roll guitar!"  Being the smart-ass that I am, I said, "Yeah that's why
    I bought it!" ;-)  Then I heard all the whispers when I started shaving
    the sides of my head!  Now I'm going to start using the distortion
    channels on my M1! ;-)  I've always used the clean channel, but not any
    more!
    
    Mike

    Hey Greg, did you ever get promoted out of the dog house?  Is that why
    you use 4x10s? ;-)

>    Hey Greg, did you ever get promoted out of the dog house?  Is that why
>    you use 4x10s? ;-)
    
    I'm constantly in the dog house!  But I sold the 4x10s to Randy Bronson
    (remember R.B.?), they're gone! (actually I still have to ship him one
    of 'em...lazy slack rear that I am).  Anyway, I'm going to be using a
    Marshall 4x12 straight front loaded with 30wt Celestions, all freshly
    reconed and ready to roar!  I just have to do a little work on it first
    to get it ready for duty, as it was kind of torn up when I got it.
    
    I can't believe they'd give you flack about *your* guitar, it's really
    pretty conservative looking, with the white paint and all.  Not like
    some of them, like the lazer blue or road hazard pink ones that Coop
    has or something!  Some people...
    
    gh

>    I can't believe they'd give you flack about *your* guitar, it's really
>    pretty conservative looking, with the white paint and all.  Not like
    
    Think about the people I'm dealing with here though.  After all, it
    does have a pointed headstock and, though its a strat type body, some
    of the body points come to a point.
    
    Mike

      POINTY=EVIL
    
                  Frizkid
    

    I still don't get it.  That's not a particularly pointy headstock, try
    out my Charvel...
    
    gh

    no thanks, keep the Shovel ;-)

    I don get it...are pointy guitars s'pposed to be any more phallic
    in representation than non-pointy guitars?!?

    No just more radical looking.  I'm such a rebel ;-)

        Does that mean  I'm  an  evil  bass  player  cause  I  have a
        Warlock ? 
        
        METALord"�

       Way evil............
    
                        POINTY HELL!
    
                     8*)!!!!!
               Frizkid
    

    
    Bet it's an NJ :')
    
    I loved the look of those things since the moment I saw Sixx with one
    back during SATD.
    
    

        RE: NJ Warlock
        
        Yeah it is, but hey, for the price I paid, I cannot complain!
        Got it at EU Wurlitzers in Woosta' back a little over a month
        ago for $250.  
        
        METALord"'

    >    Yeah it is, but hey, for the price I paid, I cannot complain!
    >    Got it at EU Wurlitzers in Woosta' back a little over a month
    >    ago for $250.  
    
    Mr. cheap n easy...that's the Matt Bagdy *I* know!!  ;^)

    Woah dudes, it's...

    
|    Mr. cheap n easy...that's the Matt Bagdy *I* know!!  ;^)
        
        Nah, more like, that's  all  my  wallet  could  afford and my
        girlfriend was the one who `financed' the purchase for me.
        
        (Hey, nobody likes credit, but  when  the  interest  is  THAT
        good. (^; )
        
        METALord"�

    
    
    Bassist for M.P. has a warlock, a bich, and a one other which the name
    escapes me. REAL pointy. wish I could think of the name of it.

    
    
    
    Ironbird?
    
    Those are REAL pointy....

    Mockingbird?

    
    Iron bird is correct!!
    
    Hey Jim, you gonna be around at lunchtime? I wanna drop off that tape
    and may some tix if ya want some.

    
    
    I have a mockingbird guitar... had it for about 8 years.. the real
    BC Rich!
    
    
    Yup, I'll be around... and Ya! bring some tixs.. I'm pretty sure
    I'll be able to check you guys out Sunday..
    
    

    Jim,
    
    You have a REAL one?  Was it the maple one with Koa stripes or the Koa
    one with maple stripes??  Also, was it the STD model (rosewood board
    with diamond inlays) or the custom model (ebony board with cloud
    inlays)??
    
    Buck, who wants a Mockingbird Custom in a REAL bad way!!!

    
    
    
    I believe its the one with maple stripes.. the STD model... 
    
    I like the old style headstocks too.... 
    
    It was my first guitar.... I have'nt picked it up in a while!
    (seeing I play bass now...) almost sold it once... but could'nt
    part with it....
    
    
    JW- 

    
    
    
    The only thing I did'nt like about the Mockingbird was that it's
    top heavy...

    I WANT ONE!!!

    
    
    
    	Yup, played bass for the last.. ummm... hmm.... lets see...
    	4 years?
    
    	played git first.. for about 2...

    Glen Benton, the guitarist from Deicide, is a proud new daddy.
    His son's name is Daemon-the latin version meaning master of the
    supernatural...He's already got a song dedicated to him called "Satan
    Spawn the Cacodaemon"...
    Benton tried to talk the doctor into letting him take the placenta home
    with him after Daemon was born...he's already got his tonsils and his
    grandmothers kidney stones in a jar of formaldehyde at home...
    
    He has in inverted 6 inch cross branded into his forhead that he
    reburns every third sunday of each month..."My crosses would always go
    flying off when we played, so I figured I'd make it permanent...It's a
    trademark of my beliefs"  
    
    Re: cat guts..."The whole place becomes encased in the smell of rotting
    flesh and it becomes one large food fight.  When the meat is going
    around with the nails on the armor and there's guts hanging off you,
    it's insane.  This stuff is real."
    
    These bands make Slayer look mellow!
    
    
    "you can almost guarantee that if you're from Florida in a death metal
    band, you'll get signed..."
    
    
    paraphrased with absolutely no permission!

    -1
    
    Def. sick puppies IMHO

    Yea, can you imagine???
    
    "Excuse me, you have a liver on your shoulder..."

    
    
    	What talent..... please...

    I'd like to meet his wife or girlfriend or whatever.  She must out of
    her mind (Honey, remember the placenta...)
    
    Jim

    Oh, now *where* did I put that placenta?  I know I had it here
    somewhere?
    
    Gimme a break...

    there is a famous tv doctor here in the UK who eat her placenta,she
    claimed is full of nutrients,bollocks to that,she a devil worshipper 80
    
    
    
    
                                                      Staynz
    
    

    If I remember correctly, I had a health teacher once who told me
    that placenta was used in certain shampoos and other hair products because
    the nutrients or whatever had beneficial effects.  I can't remember if
    it was human placenta or bovine placenta or what.  How'd you like to
    get that in you eyes?
    
    Jim
    
    Oh yeah, keeping with the topic... SATAN RULES

re. last and then some..
    
human placeta (sp?)
    they use in comsmetics, hair care etc... yes you are correct.
    scarey thougth huh???
    
    
			wendy.

		


	
    
    	
    
    

    Re: -1
    
    right you are WendyO, and most of it comes from France where abortion
    is so legal it is encouraged ;-)

    Placenta-the vascular organ in mammals except monotremes and marsupials
    that unites the fetus to the maternal uterus and mediates its metabolic
    exchanges through a more or less intimate association of uterine
    mucosal with mucosal with chorionic and usu.allantoic tissues.
    
                    Crazy-Very-internel_dudes_AL

    sounds like a drum head
    
    

    
    
    BLECH!!!
    
    Well maybe someday they will come up with a line of "placenta-free
    cosmetics".
    
    ACK!

    Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
    
    
    later,
    Jim

    since I couldn't find a "Death" topic, I'll just put it in here...
    
    I was hanging out with some death rockers this weekend and I have a few
    things to say.  I had to sit there and listen to their death rockin'
    music for what seemed like and eternity!  I must say that after a while
    this stuff really starts to grow on ya...At first I just cringed up and
    tried to forget about it, but after a while, it's hard NOT to hear it
    (basically because it's so f'n loud!)  I have to say this:  There are
    some VERY cool guitar riffs on this album (Spiritual Healing)  And if
    it wasn't for the vocals, I would probably rrrrrreeeeeaaaallly like it. 
    The vocals are what really turns me off.  And they would say "NO!
    that's what makes it so HARDCORE!"...I don't see any musical talent
    whatsoever in the vocals, but some of the stuff does have merit.  And I
    had to keep telling myself over and over:  These people are just people
    and this music is just music.  it worked.  But I can only take this
    stuff in very small doses.
    
    Well, that's my .02$  
    
    'pril

    Re: lyrics
    
    It's funny, that's the same argument Christian rockers have.  The music
    is rock, no matter how you cut it.  The lyrics are what *makes* a lot
    of different styles.  
    
    Obviously, I could never compromise myself and my beliefs to support
    death metal/satanic lyrics in any way, shape, or form.  I refuse to
    rationalize it too.
    
    Mike

    None of the following are meant to reflect my beliefs, nor are they
    meant to support anyone else's beliefs.... just a few interesting
    points.... IMO
    
    
    Lyrics.... I can rarely make out what is said, and I don't really like
    Death metal so I can't fully comment.  If they are promoting what could
    be concidered harmful ideaologies (suicide, abuse, etc) then why not
    ban them.  If they are putting forward suggestions that one religion or
    belief is better than an other, and people want to ban this, then they
    will have to ban all sorts of religious suggestions regarding one
    religion being better than an other.
    
    Musically.... as long as it rocks & it ain't out to hurt people, or
    warp their minds one way or the other... Why not.
    
    Looking at this subject, and not getting involved in peoples beliefs,
    you have to objective enough not to forget there are two sides to this
    discussion.  If you take the example of politics where there are
    differing beliefs, if you wanna ban one point of view... you gotta ban
    them all.
    
    As for bands like `Deicide' if thats there name..... I don't agree with
    their particular beliefs but I think they do have the right to their
    beliefs.... it's only when they act out these strange beliefs and it
    causes harm / injury to a third party that I can say it's wrong.
    
    Should we be trying to protecgt the weak minded, and poorly raised
    people from every possible thing that might harm them ?
    
    I think that is a parents responsibility!
    
    Bonzo

    Death Metal is a joke.

    It may be a joke to me & you... but some people believe in this stuff!
    
    

    
    I don't mean death and occult was a joke, but the music (I use the term
    loosley) that thrives on this stuff is pathetic.

    911 is a joke!

    I also think death metal is a waste of resources.  I don't think death
    metal lovers listen to that style for pure musical reasons.  I mean
    give me a break, they judge quality by how fast it is! ;-)  It is a
    more rebellious style than rock 'n' roll.  I think people that get into
    this stuff are rebellious against their families, government, religion,
    and society in general.
    
    Mike

    correction:  MOST people.
    
    and, yeah, that's pretty much the size of it.

    Goodgrief!
    
    It looks like we are all agreeing on something!
    
    Bonzo

     No debate from me.......
    
                      Agreed!
    
                  Frizkid
    

    this is too good to be true!  Okay, I change my mind and disagree with
    myself! ;-)

    
    Ahhh, but there is always one....
    
    I tend to agree about the vocals (they suck so bad) and the lyrical
    content, but the music itsef... I must say I do think SOME of those
    bands have talent.. I.E. Sepultura, Death Angel, ect..., Maybe if these
    guys applied themselves they could actually make really good music. 
    So my vote is a sort of YAY for the music. And NAAAYY for the
    lyrics/vocals
    
    Chris, who likes death's music, but can't stand the guys voice....
    

I think Death Metal music covers quite a wide range which is not well delimited
by itself. I've tried to listen some DM bands like Obituary or Morbid Angel but
it's not exactly my cup of tea.
I like very intense heavy metal and thrash when it keeps precise and musically
creative. Speed for speed is just musical atlethism and I'm little impressed.
Now, if we take in consideration Slayer and Sepultura, what do they play ? 
intense thrash only or death metal ? Both are excellent bands (Sepultura has
improved much the vocals on Arise).
I think "Gore metal" is a better term to distinguish extremist bands which 
search to shock just like gore literature. And I'm not an amateur of gore 
related art.
Vocals are a problem for many fast playing bands, but bands like Death Angel
have excellent singers. For the gore bands the voices are also gore oriented
(just listen Obituary).

The culture is allways a mirror of the society at some time. It just reflects
the human thinking and cannot be directed. Death and after death issues are
reflected in different arts since few thousand years. We can see death reflected
in many old paintings by famous artists. I think some people just want to put
this into music also. It's interesting to see that quite many bands, like
Celtic Frost with "Into the pandemonium" have used photographs of classical
paintings showing religious death related subjects.

For me personnaly, gore metal has the same effect and value as glam rock, I
care little about at this time. I don't think one presents more danger than
the other.

Sorin

    I agree with the comment about the music being like a horror film.
    That`s how i regard it. Lyrics about satan and bloody dismemberment
    are good fun,like a Freddy Kreguer film.
    
    As for death metal bands being talentless,i`ll have to disagree.
    Have any of you muso`s tried playing complex riffs at a million
    miles an hour,with all the band staying in time? It takes hours
    of practise,and (speaking from experience),most can`t cut it.
    Believe me,heavy metal ala Iron Maiden,AC/DC is far,far easier to
    play.
    
    If you don`t believe me,have a go.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    What's Putrefication?

    ANyone read the interview with Anton Zandow Levee in the recent
    Rolling Stone??  he explicitly states that bands like AC/DC,
    Iron Maiden, etc. are not Satanic.  He said true Satanic music is
    that music which is never played...then when someone plays it,
    it releases the power of the music.

    is he on acid or what?!?!

    WOAH!, like trippindicular dude!  8)

    
    
    Anton Levay started the Church of Satan in 1966.

    Yup. interesting article.

    RE: F.
    
    >Anton Levay started the Church of Satan in 1966.
    	- I've been reading that book "The Church of Satan"  
	  just few pages.  It's pretty cool to me so far.
    
    -Dle                                          
      !
      !
     -+-
      !
    
    

    Fdot
    
    whats that breakoff church...The Temple of ???
    
    

    I know very well who Anton is.  Unless Buck was using the WendyO tool
    suite again, I thought that passage was just plain nonsensical.
    
    It doesn't surprise me though, the Bible says Satan is the author of
    confusion.
    
    Re: -2
    
    Dle, sounds like your hooked dude.  Next thing you'll be reading the
    "Book of Shadows" too.
    
    Mike

    What's the Book of Shadows?!?  Sounds kind of neat
    .
    
    Buck, who likes shadows

    Re: Mike,
    
    >Dle, sounds like your hooked dude.  Next thing you'll be reading the
    >"Book of Shadows" too.
    	- Well, all of the books I've read like:
		* Satanism (A guide to the awesome power of Satan)
		* Satan wants you (The coult of devil worship in America)
		* The Satanic Rituals (Companion to The Satanic Bible)
		* Necronomicon		
		* The Satanic Bible
 	
    	 - Be honest with you, I see some point out of those books, but 
	   that not mean I am.....
	   
     -Dle
       !
       !
      -+-
       !
    

    Is the satanic bible easily available? I`ve always fancied reading
    that.
    
    And remember kids,just `cos you read about Satan,it don`t mean
    you`re possessed or a weirdo.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    For a while, the Satanic Bible was a best-seller here at the mall
    bookstore...they couldn't keep that baby in stock!

    
    
    Hey Buck, its the Temple of Set.

    Thanks GoF
    
    I could only think of Temple of Syrinx
    ;^)

    
      Dousen't that Anton dude reside in Manitou Springs CO.?
                                                           jazzzzzzzzzzzz

    Re: all
    
>		* The Satanic Rituals (Companion to The Satanic Bible)
    
    This is also known as the "Book of Shadows".  It's full of verses taken
    from the Holy Bible and twisted into nonsensical blasphemy.  A prime
    example of this is found in one of the songs on Pink Floyd's "Animals"
    album.  The song (I think its "Pigs") has a section in it where an
    electronic voice recites the 23rd Psalm from the "Book of Shadows".
    
    >	 - Be honest with you, I see some point out of those books, but 
>	   that not mean I am.....
    
    You can say that all you want, but personal experience tells me you've
    already taken the first 2 steps.
    
    >Is the satanic bible easily available? I`ve always fancied reading
    >    that.
    
    from bookstores and libraries.
    
    >  And remember kids,just `cos you read about Satan,it don`t mean
    >    you`re possessed or a weirdo.
    
    no, but it doesn't take long.  You people don't realize how dangerous
    this stuff really is.  You never underestimate your adversary.  Satan 
    doesn't play games, and is in it for keeps.
    
    >For a while, the Satanic Bible was a best-seller here at the mall
    >    bookstore...they couldn't keep that baby in stock!
    
    yeah the occult is now the 2nd fastest growing "religion" in the world.
    
    Mike

    I cant sy I agree with all these comments, just as long as all this
    isnt done/or creates a harmful situation.. 
    
    being Christen myself , its hard for me to read this stuff and its 
    also had to associate with anyone on that side (so to speak)
    however....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    everyone is different and for someone to make a statement : it 
    wont take long, me thinks is out of line.. What about the people who
    dont believe in God/satan?? anything gunna happen to them?? How can
    it..
    They dont believe..
    
    I know I would never read the stuff because when I was like in 2nd
    grade I did a report and started it on witches, I picked up a 
    witchcraft book and two day later it went back to the library ..
    nothing but bad things happened to me... :*)  I didnt question either
    side.. just wanted to have no part of it..
    
    so there!
    
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

    2-60 REPLIEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    
    
    		
    
    		wendy o'
    
    

        But Mike, are you saying that `ignorance' is the way of God ?
        Is there a problem  with  being  knowledgable  about good AND
        evil ?  
        
        Does this mean that because  I  read  a book about incest and
        rape that I'm on my way  to becoming a sicko ?  Will I end up
        raping someone because of it ?
        
        Get real Mike, I'm a Christian too  (Methodist) and have been
        all my life, but being on the extremist side and finger point
        is far from being a Christian.  If I  felt  like  making  the
        attempt at reading something like the `Book of Shadows', then
        I think it would be more for my benefit of `understanding and
        knowledge' before it would become an obsession.
        
        The devil won't consume you unless you allow him to !  Didn't
        you ever do a Bible study ?  Do you think with an  open  mind
        or do the  `Bible  thumpers'  dictate what you can and cannot
        read/do ?  
        
        I remain. . .
        
        METALord"�

    re? 
    
    
    i think the way the words are written (on any type of regligion , good
    or evil) {i had to stick that in :*) }
    the words are they type of poetry that is the capture the mind , it a
    chanting way ...
    
    and merely just reading it will only tell you of new words :*)
    
    		wendy o'
    

>    everyone is different and for someone to make a statement : it 
>    wont take long, me thinks is out of line.. What about the people who
>    dont believe in God/satan?? anything gunna happen to them?? How can
>    it..
>    They dont believe..
    
    Because I've been down that road before.  Besides, God gave everyone
    free will.  And as Rush says, "If you choose not to decide, you still
    have made a choice!"
    
    Mike

        Okay, I'm  going  to  go  out on a limb here for a minute and
        digress.  This  is  NOT  meant  to start a war, but to make a
        point.    Please take NO OFFENSE to these  statements  and  I
        apologize in advance to any I may offend.

        Shall  we  assume  that  because one person studies  God  and
        another person studies the devil that one is better  than the
        other ?  How can one be better than the other ?  
        
        Does  that  mean that a Christian heterosexual is better than
        a non-Christian homosexual is better than an athiest/agnostic
        bisexual ?  Only in the eye  and mind of the person doing the
        name calling !
        
        Christians are  not  supposed to point fingers and tell other
        people WHAT they  are  doing wrong and how they're doomed for
        the fires of hell  for  what  they  do.    All  people have a
        choice, and with that choice, decide what they want.  Whether
        it be for the time being (searching for something  to believe
        in) or for their life.  They are the ones  that  have to live
        with the  consequences,  no matter what.  Finger pointing and
        name calling is  a  way  to cover up ones OWN inadequacies by
        making someone else look  lower  than  they  are, so they can
        feel better about themselves.
        
        Although I don't agree with  everything  everyone  does, it's
        not up to me, as a  Christian  and  human being, to fall to a
        level of finger pointing and name calling.  
        
        To each their own !
        
        METALord"�

>        But Mike, are you saying that `ignorance' is the way of God ?
>        Is there a problem  with  being  knowledgable  about good AND
>        evil ?  
    
    It is when you become preoccupied with the evil.  Besides, the Bible
    tells you all you need to know about dealing with your adversary.
    
>        Does this mean that because  I  read  a book about incest and
>        rape that I'm on my way  to becoming a sicko ?  Will I end up
>        raping someone because of it ?
    
    this is ridiculous.  Even as a Methodist, you should know that the
    spiritual realm is much different than the physical realm.
    
>        The devil won't consume you unless you allow him to !  Didn't
>        you ever do a Bible study ?  
    
    Pretty much the same thing I said above.  I've taught them on
    occaision.
    
    >Do you think with an open mind or do the `Bible thumpers' dictate what 
    >you can and cannot read/do ?  
    
    I'm more open minded than most people in here.  And nobody tells me
    what to read.  If you're a Christian, one of your goals is to grow
    spiritually.  Common sense tells you that growth doesn't not take place 
    from reading occultic literature nor does it glorify God.
    
    Mike

>        Christians are  not  supposed to point fingers and tell other
>        people WHAT they  are  doing wrong and how they're doomed for
>        the fires of hell  for  what  they  do.    All  people have a
    
    Ephesians 4:14-32
    
>        with the  consequences,  no matter what.  Finger pointing and
>        name calling is  a  way  to cover up ones OWN inadequacies by
        
    Show me where I was doing that.  I think you're blowing this out of
    proportion.
    
    Mike

    I have a question...
    
    >The occult is the 2nd fastest growing "religion" in the world.
    
    "occult"?!?  What's that mean?
    
    I mean, Satanism is it's own religion, and Witchcraft is it's own
    religion, etc.  Both fall under the umbrella of the "occult", but
    neither have anything to do with the other, and are pretty far apart
    in the whole spectrum of things...

>    "occult"?!?  What's that mean?
    
    The Occult or Occultism is the belief in supernatural forces, but it is
    always associated with Satanism and Witchcraft.  I've never seen it
    used in any other context.
    
>    I mean, Satanism is it's own religion, and Witchcraft is it's own
>    religion, etc.  Both fall under the umbrella of the "occult", but
>    neither have anything to do with the other, and are pretty far apart
>    in the whole spectrum of things...
    
    That's what they want you to believe, but anyone who has been involved
    with them knows better.  The names change, but the players remain the
    same.  It is no coincidence that a lot of their ceremonies are very
    similar.  So what if one calls him Lucifer and the other calls him
    Samhain, its the same being.

    >The Occult or Occultism is the belief in supernatural forces, but it is
    >always associated with Satanism and Witchcraft.  I've never seen it
    >used in any other context.
    
    Well, if we go by the textbook definition of "occult", the Christianity
    falls under the "occult" umbrella as well.  I mean, the Trinity is a
    supernatural force, no?
    
    
>>    I mean, Satanism is it's own religion, and Witchcraft is it's own
>>    religion, etc.  Both fall under the umbrella of the "occult", but
>>    neither have anything to do with the other, and are pretty far apart
>>    in the whole spectrum of things...
    
    >That's what they want you to believe, but anyone who has been involved
    >with them knows better.  The names change, but the players remain the
    >same.  It is no coincidence that a lot of their ceremonies are very
    >similar.  So what if one calls him Lucifer and the other calls him
    >Samhain, its the same being.

    I disagree.  Their ceremonies are very similar.  Which came first?
    Witchcraft.  It's been around a few tousand years before Christianity.
    And Satanism had to wait for Christianity to come into being before it
    could be formed.  IMHO, all religious ceremonies hold similar traits,
    wether it be Buddism, Catholicism, Paganism, whatever...  I just find
    it hard to associate Witchcraft with Satanism due to the historical
    backgrounds of both.  In fact, a few close freinds are pagan witches,
    and they're closer to Buddists than anything out there, fwiw.

>    I disagree.  Their ceremonies are very similar.  Which came first?
    
    If you use the Bible as a historical reference, Satanism came before
    Witchcraft (as evidenced by Lucifer and his followers being thrown out
    of heaven).
    
>    Witchcraft.  It's been around a few tousand years before Christianity.
    
    Since God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, that can hardly
    be true.  After all, he created the first pagans ;-)
    
>    could be formed.  IMHO, all religious ceremonies hold similar traits,
>    wether it be Buddism, Catholicism, Paganism, whatever...  I just find
    
    It is well documented that Catholicism compromised itself out of greed 
    back in the early centuries (A.D.) by adopting Druid customs into their 
    ceremonies (as evidenced by all the name changes of the holiday 
    Halloween).  True Judeo-Christianity does not have those compromises.
    
    Mike

    
    Oh please.  These books are all a bunch of fiction.  Some of them even
    make for interesting reading.  I've read some version of the bible, i
    own a copy of the necronomicon, i've read the book of thoth, i've read
    star wars.  all a bunch of fiction.
    
    you are what you make of yourself, no book reading is going to sway
    some supernatural powers to take more notice of you or influence you in
    anyway.
    
    Brings to mind that cool QR tune, Roads to Madness :')
    
    

    
    There's going to be a death metal show at Escape in Salisbury.
    
    Death and Pestilence are playing. Mystic Powers is opening.
    
    Tix are available.
    
    Since we've been talking about death metal so much why don't 
    ya'll take a field trip up there and check it out first hand!

    
    I might do that. One of my friends is a wicked big DEATH fan....and as
    far as he knows they are split up, he'll be happy when I tell him they
    aren't
    
    
    Chris, who has never heard Pestilence, but likes Death's music

    Re: Chris,    

    >I might do that. One of my friends is a wicked big DEATH fan....and as
    >far as he knows they are split up, he'll be happy when I tell him they
    >aren't
    	- Yes, they broke up.  But, Chuck found a new line up.  Their new 
	  album should be out pretty soon.
    
    >Chris, who has never heard Pestilence, but likes Death's music
 	- They from The Neitherland.  Last year they supposed to play with
	  Death, Carcass. But their visa expired.  So, from there they 
	  cancelled the U.S. tour.  Myself, they are wicked killer band.

     -Dle
       !
       !
      -+-
       !

    DEATH`s new album is called 'HUMAN',and has gotten rave reviews.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    
    I'll have the advanced tix for the Death show after the 20th.

     I feel that this entire conference catagory is designed as a sounding
    board for the most prejudice-finger pointing hypocrites who ever walked
    the face of the earth.  All the discussions of how Satanism
    influences the minds of children and causes so many of societies 
    problems is spouted from the mouths of brainwashed cowards who are	
    too afraid to look at things from a different point of view.
         I might point out the fact that most violent crimes, including
    rape and murder are perpetrated by God fearing individuals confused
    more often than not by the very principals of the religion that the 
     person involved favors.  
         Please take note that when someone commits a crime and gets 
    caught with an Ozzy Osbourne(eg.) tape in his hands, the press creates
    a "satanic" image around the individual solely because of a drunken,
    aging rock stars image, while if an individual commits a similar crime
    with a Buck Owens tape, the tape is ignored and the crime is
    attributed to either the individuals home problems or a psychological
    disorder.
         Remember God created EVERYTHING!!
         If God created everything, then God also created evil.
         He also gave himself an excuse.
         He created the devil to blame his mistakes on.
         If you blame religion for everything that goes wrong, then
    everybody, no matter whom is blameless. Either the devil made me do it
    or God came to me in a dream. Who is right?
         Perhaps if we look at the bible as a simple teaching tool,
    reminiscent of a Grimm fairy tale or a similar tale with a moral
    involved, perhaps we can gleen the true message that its trying to
    impart. True evil is blamelessness, the ability to pass the blame from
    yourself to someone else.  Using a scapegoat if you will. True good is
    admitting to your mistakes, learning from them and choosing your own
    moral code. There is nothing wrong with being human, there is something
    wrong with trying to be something you're not.  To me the bible is a
    fairy tale.
         Remember Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic.
                                               Lighten up you
                                          holier than thou *ssholes.
                                            Loki.
    
         
      
         

    I *wonder* what that is...

    I guess it all goes back to what you believe, of course. You can say
    that most of what you read is fiction and the only thing thing that
    will change that opinion is experince. Due to my background in
    christianity and an interest in the occult, I have been through some
    unexplainable events both secular and non-secular. I'm no nut and I'm
    deeply into philosophy and logic, so I can tell you, I wasn't drunk
    during these times. Is it all the power of the mind? That question is
    still debatable. So far as influences in behavior, it is based on what
    you continuously feed your mind on. As most of you know an over-zealous
    christain is someone who only deals with Christ in thought and the same
    is said for someone who is deeply into the Devil. No, reading something
    about rape will not cause you to inact this action unless you are a
    psychopath to begin with, but a contiuous exposure to this stimulus will 
    influence your thinking and possibly your actions. Some people can
    handle this but unfortunatly, most people can't, hence your
    self-rightous christians and hell-bent devil worshipers. Anything can
    be carried too far and cause problems.
    
    
    My 2 cents FWIW
    
    Nate

    Most of what you said makes sence, but I disagree with one point which
    may have been a typo...
    
    "No, reading something about rape will not cause you to inact this action 
    unless you are a psychopath to begin with, but a contiuous exposure to 
    this stimulus will influence your thinking and possibly your actions. 
    Some people can handle this but unfortunatly, most people can't, hence your
    self-rightous christians and hell-bent devil worshipers."
    
    Although I agree with most of this, should it read "*most* people canb
    handle this but unfortunately, *some* people can't".  I firmly believe
    that most people generally will never consciously harm an other.  It is
    the few who have the biggest problems.
    
    
    				Bonzo
    

    agreed,its the "few" you worry about,the kind that are metally
    incapable of judging between right and wrong,most human being have a
    grasp on reality and can determine what is bollocks and what is not
    
    
    
                                                Staynz
    
    
    

    
    
    I agree with Bonzo..  I a friend of mine just bought a really gross
    book that explains in explicit detail of a mass murderer..  she has
    lots of books like that..  she finds them interesting, how twisted some
    peoples minds get..  these are true life stories, but they don't have
    an influence on her mental health..
    
    
    Goddess F.

    I don't think that reading books of that calibre will mean your friends
    mental health will go down hill,its all a case of "is she mentally
    unstable in the first place?"If yes,run like f*ck.If she is unstable,
    these books may have an effect but its all a case of her initial mental
    state.
    
    
    
    
                                                 Staynz

    
    I think a lot of mass murderers are sane, and they have always been.
    Just look at Jeff Dahmer, just cause he liked to chew on a human rib
    bone, does that make him a bad person. Even if he killed for sport,
    that doesn't make him insane, just makes him unique. BTW I have no idea
    why I am talking about this, probably cause I watch too much cartoons
    8)
    
    
    Chris

    I didn't say insane,I said mentally unstable,there is a difference.Not
    much but a definate difference.
    
    
    
                                                  Staynz

    
    Yeah, I know what you mean. Mentally Unstable is what leads to
    insanity. You're on that fine line leaning back and forth between
    insanity and sanity. And all it takes is one person to say 'BOO' and
    there you go. Off to the hardware store to buy a model nine, kx
    shinning stainless (not for long) steel, Bricker 10 incher, double
    bladed axe.
    
    chris
    

    
    
    I don't know if mentally unstable means you are on the road to
    insanity.  It just means you are more suceptible (sp) to harmful
    influence.
    
    IMO
    
    Goddess F.

    
    Another Idea here is...what is meant by Mentally Unstable. I think we
    are all referring to a Violent unstability. At least I am. Another
    reaction to Mental unstableness, is Phobias. A person could break down
    in one instance and that would forever make him unstable, in that area
    anyway. To use an example, take Indiana Jones. When He was a youngin'
    he fell into a box car full of snakes. At that moment he became
    mentally unstable in the fact that whenever he encountered snakes later
    on in life, he had someind of reaction, whether it is, violence or fear.
	To use an example from something real. Take Bob for instance. When
    bob is 9 he sees his mom get murdered by his dad. at that point bob
    becomes what everyone would expect mentally unstable. Bob's dad however
    offers bob false comfort and lies. Makes it seem as though it was
    alright that he killed his mother. Thus forming a sort of sand pile
    burying the memory. Now bob is 21 and he listens to an album by
    ********* . And one lyric says, "My father killed my mother and I'm
    happy cause the b_tch deserved to die" that causes Bob to have a
    relapse and he sinks into a psychotic demention where he relives the
    time in his life where the death occured. Now bob is walking home still
    in a delusion, he sees a prostitute, but through his distorted vision,
    he sees her as his mother. He picks her up. Brings her somewhere....and
    the rest is obvious....
    
    
    Class dismissed. Psycology 101 will pick up tomorrow in room b101. 8)
    
    
    Chris

    re Chris' pname. Ain't it, "smells like fish, but tastes like chicken."

    
    dude..if it smells like fish i don' wanna go near it.
    
    But I saw La Bamba too.
    
    chris

    
    
    Chris, I disagree on your definition of mental instability.  I do not
    beleive phobias are a condition of "mental instability".  Neither is
    childhood trauma.  
    
    If that were the case, we are all mentally unstable because childbirth
    itself is a trauma.
    
    I have and have had plenty of phobias caused by things that happened in
    childhood (I think most everyone does) and that does not make be a
    mentally unstable person.
    
    IMO, the character Bob is psychotic.
    
    
    Goddess F.

    
    I see what your saying, But at childbirth, you really don't remember
    much. 
    
    I wasn't saying (if I did oops) that Phobias are the only kind of
    Mental instabillities there are, I was just making one into an example
    of a mental instabilities. I mean I doubt Vegtaphobia (fear of
    vegtables?) could lead to anything horrifically violent. death by
    cucumber? (seen it in a movie once :) 
    
    But I must directly disagree about Childhood trauma. That is the
    highest ranked reason for violent mental instability. It is also the
    highest ranked reason for schitzophrenia (sp?). 
    
    oh and Bob loves you too 8)
    
    
    Chris

    
    
    I do not think phobias are a "kind" of mental instability.

    
    
                    I do think that Chris is mentally unstable and he's
    probably proud of it!
                                          jazzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    
                

    
    I see were never going to agree here.
    
    Mental : Pertaining to the mind
    Instability: Lack of stability
    Stability: Emotionally well balanced and sound
    Phobia: An intense or illogical FEAR of something.
    
    Fear is an emotion that is suppressed when the mind is stable. But when
    instable the fear is no longer balanced and it gets out of hand.
    
    I know your gonna disagree again, s'okay. It's yer opinion. And I
    admire that. So don't back down, I'll get bored. 8)
    
    
    
    Chris

    re .295
    
    Yes I am  Gubbaphobic (fear of guys named bubba) 8)
    
    Jazz I'm hurt.
    
    Does my name loo like Bob :)
    
    BTW Bob is an entirely fictional character, and is in no way connected
    to me :):)
    
    Chris

    me thinks anyone is unstable if they think mass murders and
    people eating people bone is stable
    
    			SO THERE ! :*)
    
    		
    			Wendy o'
    
    
    

    
    Hannibal the Cannibal Lecter ROOLZ (if only he didn't kill people).

    
    RE: .298
    
    Gang up on why don'tcha.
    
    Do you eat Turkey. How about Chicken. How about Spare Ribs. Do you
    think the animals enjoy you eating them??? They have feelings to. 
    Why don't you eat yer cat, or your dog, or your friend. If you like the
    taste go ahead and do it.
    
    see the above paragraph is a demonstration of Sarcasm. Do you actually
    believe I condone murder or killing in any way, shape, or form? I am in
    total favor for capitol punishment, too. 
    
    Hannibal Lector. His Mind was what intrested me the most!

    RE: -1...hey dude *300 REPLIEZ!!*
    
    Oh, yeah.  Remind me to steer clear of this "Bob" character!!  
    
    ;pril

    
    Why doesn't anyone like BOB. he's a nice guy and if people would show
    him a little love and affection. he might make something of himself.
    
    then again, if ya got close to BOB he'd probably chop you up and chew
    on your bones. He might even make christmas tree ornaments out of your
    vital parts!!!
    
    
    chris

         Mike....
         
         Regarding Religion and music....
         
         I know you were talking primarily about Christianity, I think 
         that all forms of religion has it's place, even when we in 
         the western world do not support their beliefs.
         
         I cannot there for criticise their music, if they are using 
         it as a form of worship, then who am I to say it's trash.
         
         I don't like thrash in general, though there are a few songs 
         the get me hyped.  If by using thrash as a medium they are 
         trying to lure the easily impressionable away from the dark 
         side of religion, then good for them.  After all belief in a 
         "GOD" must also include a belief in the opposite supreme type 
         being!
         
         We are seeing closer ties between Christians, budists, etc., 
         and from these closer ties, we will eventually see 
         (hopefully), a better understanding of peoples belief 
         systems.  However, if the religions of the world refuse to 
         accept that there are "alternatives" to the beliefs system 
         that they promote, then the bloodshed we have seen in the 
         middle east for instance will continue to grow.  In the U.K. 
         we have a similar problem in Northern Ireland, although the 
         religious leaders continue to push for a lasting peace, there 
         are organisations such as NORAD actively supporting the 
         violence in the province.  Until these organisations can see 
         the problems that their beliefs are causing, getting the 
         varying forms of religion to agree and to communicate will be 
         very difficult indeed.
         
         How I have strayed slightly from the point.  If it is an 
         art form, and there are many things which are called art that 
         IMHO should not be thus called, how can I criticise ?
         
         Bonzo (I seem to be getting deep in my old age!)

    
    
    "Live and Let Live"
    

    
    Did you know that a multi-religious church has been built in Milton
    Keynes which was funded by the heads of all the churches.  There are
    sermons at various times and on various days of the week for different
    religions, but on Sundays there is no split, the service is for
    everyone.  Believe it or not, it works.
    
    flip

    re: -1
    
    IMO, heavy metal is not only a sound, but an attitude.  Songs by Black
    Sabbath, have this evil sound to them... (some of them)   If Ozzy
    was to sing about flowers, and puppies, and "hey baby come on over to
    my pad", it wouldn't sound right.
    
    I used to think of heavy metal as "horror music".  This was before the
    term "heavy metal" expanded to include groups like AC/DC, and Def
    Leppard and the like...  
    
    Anybody who goes to the extreme of killing themselves because they
    think a song encouraged them to were probably suicidal to begin with,
    and it would have happened sooner or later anyway.  Similarly for
    killing someone else because of a song.
    
    Ken
    

    Also, I think certain bands focus on death, occult, destruction etc.
    because it fascinates them, as well as the fans.  Just like horror
    movies.   It's a genre of music.

    We're are the youth and we're pissed!!!! There's nothing that any bible
    banger can do to change that!!!!!!!!
    
                 Frizkid
    

Isn't Suicide Solution is an anti-suicide song?  Why does Ozzy always get
hit over the head about this song?

If you feel like suicide after listening to Heavy Metal it must mean you
were too wimpy to continue living anyway...

Tim

    I'll admit I've always been a bit curious about the occult.  That
    doesn't mean I'll become a devil worshiper or anything.  Ever since I
    was a little girl I've always wanted to know more about it.  There's a
    certain "mysticism" that attracts me to it, but it's really just a
    curiosity as opposed to an obsession (like some people...)  I listen to
    lots of music that would more than likely be considered "evil" by most
    devout Christians.  I'm not a very religious person, but I know the
    difference between good and evil and right and wrong.  I don't practice 
    Satanism, but I'll admit it intrigues me.  I'm sure there are more than 
    a handful of people in this conference who feel the same but wouldn't 
    dare admit it for fear of being damned to hell eternally.  It's really 
    all b.s. I know, and it's all in your head and Satan isn't REAL or 
    anything, or so I've heard.  The only way its real is if you make it
    real.  I'm a Christian and proud of it.  And anytime I even *hear* 
    anyone talking about Satan like they actually believe what they're 
    talking about, I tell them they're stupid and tune them out.  I don't 
    want to hear that sh*t...I have a right to my Christianity just like 
    they have a right to their stupidity.  Satan isn't the way to go
    unless of course you *want* to burn in hell.  If someone is stupid 
    enough to choose such a fate for themselves, why should I care?  The 
    reason I'm going on and on about this is because I've got a few friends
    who are into Death Metal and Satanism and all that crap...I don't
    particularly like it but they *are* my friends after all.  On the 
    other hand, I've got a few friends that are Bible thumpers and that
    gets on my nerves too.  But I'd rather hear about Jesus than Satan 
    any day.  I've sinned before and I'll more than likely sin again, but 
    that doesn't make me a non-Christian...does it?  
 
    Anyway, I'll shut up now.  

    'pril  

    At the risk of being burned at the stake by my fellow noters, I'm going
    to enter this...
    
    Just now, I was going through my albums because I was thinking of
    selling some of them.  I came across a Hendrix one, and noticed I had
    put a slip of paper inside the sleeve.  On it I had written some stuff
    years ago that I heard when I played it backwards once....  I listened
    again to verify it.
    
    So let it be known:
    
    On Jimi Hendrix's "Are You Experienced" song, if you play it backwards
    starting from the guitar solo (which itself is backwards BTW), it says:
    
    		Oh it's the most beautiful
    		Mmmmmmm Ohhh Yeah
    		How strange it feels my baby
    		And it's illegal, always
    
    I'm totally serious.
    You have to listen closely, but it's there!  It's not dubbed in
    backwards... it's the actual lyrics of the song which say this.
    Strange but true.
    
    Ken

> Isn't Suicide Solution is an anti-suicide song?  Why does Ozzy always get
> hit over the head about this song?
    
    That's what *he* says, but is it?  I don't know.  Reading the lyrics, I
    can't tell if it anti-suicide, pro-suicide, or just about drinking
    yourself to death.
    
    	Now you live inside a bottle
    	The reaper's travelling at full throttle
    	It's getting you but you don't see.
    	The reaper's you and the reaper is me
    
    Note the last line... It almost appears as though Ozzy's saying "your'r
    killing yourself and I'm killing you too!"
    Or how about this:
    
    	Where to hide?
    	Suicide is the only way out
    	Don't you know what it's really about?
    
    It almost seems like he's tempting the listener to commit suicide.
    I can see why he's gotten hit over the head for this song.
    
    Why the attitude Mike?  I think it all stemmed from Black Sabbath's
    first album.  I can't think of any albums before that with an evil
    tinge to them.  I can't really think of any after either except also by
    Black Sabbath.  Maybe Rolling Stones' Goats Head Soup, but that's
    questionable.  
    
    Kiss came out in '73, and Judas Priest in '74 I think.  Neither sang
    about the devil or the occult, but they both had that "sound". 
    Especially Priest.  With their hypnotic music, and Rob's "chanting"
    voice.  And Kiss, with their makeup, could certainly be said to "look"
    evil by some people.  Transfer that look to Motley Crue and their first
    two albums, both of which have pentagrams on them.
    
    Oh, I forgot about Alice Cooper too...  I imagine he had a big impact
    as well.  The whole look/sound of this type of music slowly caught on
    and grew.  To the point of Slayer and Mercyful Fate/King Diamond who
    seemed to be trying desperately to be as evil and satanic as they could
    be!  The group Trouble have a couple albums that sound so evil you'd
    think you'd be damned to hell just for playing them!
    
    But it sells!  Why?  Why do Steven King novels sell so well?!
    
    Ken
    
    
    

    
    
    it's pretty much a a sarcastic song claling suicidal people idiots. 
    anyway, i think i'll go kill myself because of metal music.....  no
    PLEASE, nobody try to save me.  i'm thru with life... so long cruel
    world.  metal music made me do it.  this will be my last note. 
    listening to bohemian now.  BANG!!!
    
    
    
    not!!
    
    :')
    
    what a bs note this is.  god bs indeed.  god is non existant, the devil
    is non existant.  what a load. 
    
    

    
    	RE: Rob
    
    	Geez, you had us all excited there for a second, too.  Next time,
    	don't be such a wimp.
    
    	8^)
    
    							GTI

    Re:Trouble being an "evil" band - they`re a Christian band,as it
    happens.
    
    All this devil/God religious stuff is all gobbldegook to me.
    

> Isn't Suicide Solution is an anti-suicide song?  Why does Ozzy always get
> hit over the head about this song?

Yeah, just like Lynyrd Skynyrd always got bashed for "That Smell" when it
was actually an anti-drug song.

Just goes to show that the "concerned parents" who keep bashing rock
music don't really listen to it and don't know what the f@#$ they're
yapping about.

-- 
Kevin "We the willing, led by the unknowing..."

    
    People don't read the lyrics to find out what it's about. They hear
    what they want to hear.
    
    We have a song like that called "Armageddon". Once through it and you'd
    think it was satanic, but if you stop and read the lyrics you'd
    see that it was very pro-God.
    
    BJ and Al had experiences with other people not understanding
    the song.

    
    There's a couple lines where you can the word "Satan" said. People get
    the wrong idea right there.

My mom yelled at me to turn the radio off and never listen to that 'terrible'
song again... I was listening to Jesus Christ Superstar on the radio...

After I let her read the insert with  the album, she sorta changed...

Droid

    re: .317             

    Ken, as I remember (don't have the words around right now), it's the
    last verse of "Suicide Solution" where it comes out that the song is
    really against suicide.  If you take isolated quotes from the rest of
    the lyrics, then yeah, you might think it was not clear what it was
    saying.

    There's a Christian band called Tourniquet which has a song about
    someone contemplating suicide (sort of similar to "Fade To Black"). 
    The narrator in the song finds a way out at the end of the song, but if
    you took a verse or two out of the context of the entire song, you
    could make it sound like they were saying "There's no other way", but
    that's not even close to it.
    
>    	Now you live inside a bottle
>    	The reaper's travelling at full throttle
>    	It's getting you but you don't see.
>    	The reaper's you and the reaper is me
>    
>    Note the last line... It almost appears as though Ozzy's saying "your'r
>    killing yourself and I'm killing you too!"

    To me, this verse is clearly saying that drinking to hide from your
    problems ("drown your sorrow") is slow suicide.  It was never my
    impression that he was promoting this by singing about it this way, in
    fact, it puts it in a very negative light.  
    
    I didn't interpret that last line the way you did either.  I thought he
    was saying that when you do that, you're killing yourself ("the reaper
    is you") and admitting that he had that problem too ("and the reaper is
    me").  It's common knowledge that Ozzy is an alcoholic, he's publicly
    stated that before.

    As I told Mike offline, I basically agree with what he's saying, about
    how consistently negative a lot of these bands are, but I didn't think
    his choice of examples were the best he could have found.  "Fade To
    Black" is not a pro-suicide song.  It's about someone who's feeling so
    down that they think there's no other way out.  I imagine that many of
    us have felt that at some time or other (some of us closer to it then
    others).  But the point is that I don't think the song actually
    promotes suicide, it just leaves you without a solution to the feeling
    it describes at the end.  
    
    I remember reading an interview with James Hetfield awhile back where
    he said basically the same thing about the song.  He said they write
    songs about things which involve strong emotions because of the
    character of the type of music they play and that FTB was just a view
    from the perspective of someone going through that emotion, that it was
    just a view of it and that it wasn't intended to be a "recommended
    action".
    
    FWIW, that song meant something to me because I had gone through the
    feeling it describes.  Didn't make me want to go through it again.  I
    think that if they'd wanted it to be a pro-suicide song, it could
    easily have been that with only subtle changes.  As it is, I think it's
    only an introspective point of view on it, not really advocating it.
    Anyone that knows me well knows that I have very strong feelings about
    the issue of suicide.

    gh

    re.-? cooks
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gobbldegook to me.
    
    
    NOw THERES A WORD :*)
    
    
    
    		wendy o'

    >    NOw THERES A WORD :*)
    
    Uh oh, looks like another product....  Wendy'o Auto Unshift!
    
    :')
    
    Ken
    

    Yes. It sounds like something out of Dungeons & Dragons or wot not
    doesn`t it?
    
    "..And the Elf Gobbldegook put a spell on the evil Wizard" etc.
    
    

    
    new product for wendy o'? I wish I was rich ;*)
    
    oh great spirit , hear my verse, with health and wealth , fill
    wendy o' purse ;*)
    
    UMNA UROTH NEMA.. etc..
    
    
    :*)
    
    			wendy o'
    

    
    that must have either been toenail or wacked al using wendy's account
    :')
    
    

    ...or maybe all three in a satanic ritual involving VAXnotes?!

    You know, I've been thinking of the occult and it's general meaning
    in life.  I've sort of come to the conclusion that it's not the
    religious denomination of an individual, but moreso their overall
    personality.  I mean, there are self-proclaimed Satanists like
    Glenn Burton, who have really negative and brutal personalities.
    To me, that is an evil person, regardless of the religion.  But
    then there are individuals like our very own Duy who are very 
    polite and sincere individuals, regardless of their religion.
    
    On the other spectrum you have the self-proclaimed Christians.
    Those of the ilk like Pat Robertson may be *PC* in their Bible
    circle, but to me, the vile hate and caustic propoganda they spread
    in an effort to control people is as evil in nature as the Glenn
    Burton's of the world.  To me, the "Jesus" attachment at this point
    is natch!  Of course there are people like Mother Theresa who 
    are truly holy individuals whos faith makes a poitive difference in
    the world.
    
    Summary:  Doesn't matter what you call yourself, matters what kind of
    person you are, and how you treat others...

ditto!  I really can't understand those that say they are "saved". To me, you
are never saved until your time comes.  But nobody is going to convince me that
a person is 'doomed' because of what types of music they listen to. There's
plenty of good and bad in *all* styles of music as well as everything else in
life.

Everyone will do good/bad things in their life. Making the 'good' percentage
of your deeds as high as possible would seem to me the ultimate way to run
your life. Forget the bad times, and keep on plugging.

I'll shaddup now 8^)

Droid

>ditto!  I really can't understand those that say they are "saved". To me, you
>are never saved until your time comes.  But nobody is going to convince me that
    
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
    whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
    the world through him might be saved.  John 3:16-17
    
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man 
    cometh unto the Father, but by me.   John 14:6
    
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
    under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.  Acts 4:12  
    
    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
    saved, and thy house.  Acts 16:30-31 
    
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it 
    is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  Ephesians 
    2:8-9  
    
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt 
    be saved.  Romans 10:9  
    
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but
    unto us which are saved it is the power of God.  I Corinthians 1:18
    
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
    because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be
    saved.  II Thessalonians 2:10  
    
    Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his
    prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according 
    to the power of God;  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy 
    calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and 
    grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.  II
    Timothy 1:8-9
    
    I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go
    in and out, and find pasture.  John 10:9  
    
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth
    not shall be damned.  Mark 16:16  
    
    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our
    Lord Jesus Christ.  I Thessalonians 5:9
    
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God
    unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also
    to the Greek.  Romans 1:16
    
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
    confession is made unto salvation.  Romans 10:10

    .....slow day at work mikey?................

    
    
    
    Thanks Mike, seriously, for putting that in.. 
    
    
    

    Hey Whit I just noticed your p_n; going by a rapist theme song now?!?
    				Rat

    No way, Ratt, that song rooolz!

    
    
    Definitely a cool tune!!!! 
    

    For rapists!!
                 Rat

    
    It's just a song.
    
    

    ...re:-1...."but he plays one on t.v."...................

Hey Mike, 

I've read a lot of bits and pieces of the Bible, and I'm not going to enter any
more notes after this. But I was talking about man declaring himself saved. You
hit it on the head in a couple of them:

   > Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man 
   > cometh unto the Father, but by me.   John 14:6

   >I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go
   >in and out, and find pasture.  John 10:9  

So, how many living people have been face-to-face? I know you are talking 
about 'living the way of the Lord', and .334 is too IMHO. But if you go by
"Judgement Day", then this day has to be just that. People can't say to 
themselves "I'm on my way to heaven" just because they say they believe in
God. Seems that's what life is for, proving it.

   >Summary:  Doesn't matter what you call yourself, matters what kind of
   >person you are, and how you treat others...

Sounds like one of the Ten Commandment to me dood. "Love thy neighbor as thy
self". 

Sorry if I bugged anyone with my replies to this note...  Back to HM!

Droid

    The arguement is that unless one accepts JC as his Lord and Savior,
    it's no dice for Heaven.  But my question is -- what about all those
    millions of people who are born into cultures that have never heard
    of JC or even a Bible for that matter??  What if they were born into
    a culture that worships the earth or something??  I find it hard to 
    believe that all these people are automatically condemned for all
    eternity due to something as small as cultural traditions and regions.

Damn straight!!

Thankyouverymuch...

jc

And what about those coaster-worshiping pagans...

Now where are my leggings?

>So, how many living people have been face-to-face? I know you are talking 
>about 'living the way of the Lord', and .334 is too IMHO. But if you go by
>"Judgement Day", then this day has to be just that. People can't say to 
>themselves "I'm on my way to heaven" just because they say they believe in
>God. Seems that's what life is for, proving it.

    Well you ignored a few other verses and I assume you don't trust those 
    that have had "beyond & back" experiences.  By the time you get to
    Judgement Day, it will be too late.  You also have to realize that if
    people make this sort of commitment, God will work in their lives to
    help them to prove it with their life.  Try explaining this:

        That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
        believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou
        shalt be saved.  Romans 10:9

>Sounds like one of the Ten Commandment to me dood. "Love thy neighbor as thy
>self". 

    If it wasn't for the 10 Commandments, we wouldn't know sin.  The law is
    what defines sin and death.  It exposes our imperfections and makes us
    realize how hopeless we were before Christ's sacrifice.

       For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the
       promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no 
       law is, there is no transgression.  Therefore it is of faith, that it 
       might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; 
       not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the 
       faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.  Romans 4:14-16

    Christ is the new law (covenant) and his new commandments cover all.  

       And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name
       of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
       And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And
       hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath 
       given us.  I John 3:23-24  

>    The arguement is that unless one accepts JC as his Lord and Savior,
>    it's no dice for Heaven.  But my question is -- what about all those
>    millions of people who are born into cultures that have never heard
>    of JC or even a Bible for that matter??  What if they were born into
>    a culture that worships the earth or something??  I find it hard to 
>    believe that all these people are automatically condemned for all
>    eternity due to something as small as cultural traditions and regions.

      For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  Being justified 
      freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom 
      God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to 
      declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through
      the forbearance of God;  Romans 3:23-25

      For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life
      through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Romans 6:23

    However, there were righteous, God-fearing people that went to heaven
    before Christ's sacrifice for sin and before the law was given. 
    Abraham is the best example.  I'm sure that the Abrahams of today's
    world that serve the one, true Creator will also go to heaven.  Those
    that worship the creations rather than the Creator is a different
    story (i.e., paganism).

    Mike

    I hope none of you concider me Ignorant for not Puttin in My view here
    about this Subject...But I wouldn't Touch_It_Here fer Any_Thing.
    
                  Crazy_Not_The_Place_Ask_Me_To_My_Face_Al

    Gee, ah, sorry... guess I got off the basenote but Mr. Buckley's reply
    made sense to me...
    
    Droid_who_has_several_JW_door_ornaments  :^)

    Driod,Don't_Get_Me_Wrong..  Buck showed balls to Open_This_Up.
    It's just that I'm not gonna touch it..
    
    And Chris,If_Ye_Can       DO_It!!  Or_Lose_it!
    
    
                  

    So what does everyone think of the new EUC logo?

    What does EUC mean?

    It's the new United Europe (European United Commonwealth?).

    Donno, I haven't seen it.  What does it look like?
    
    gh

    I'd like to hear a description from a resident HM European to verify
    what I saw was authentic.

    -1
    
    Anything similar to a pentagram?

    So whats the other half?!?

    Yeah, what is it??  The goats head??  Wha...

    It`s a buxom wench dressed in leather sat on an alter with "i love
    satan" coming out of a bubble. 
    
    er,not really.
    

    Ok, since I've had confirmation of this from residents of Europe here
    is a description.  I saw the new EUC logo for the first time on
    Wednesday night.  It is a picture of the Tower of Babel being rebuilt.  
    There are 9-10 floors built with a crane mounted near the top to signify 
    it is still under construction.  There are 10 stars that encircle the 
    peak of the Tower in the sky.  All of the stars are inverted in the 
    typical goathead-pentagram style.  The caption on the logo says, 
    "Europe: Many tongues, one voice."
    
    So what is the significance of this you may ask?  First of all, Saddam
    Hussein started a project to reconstruct the Tower of Babel when he
    took over Iraq.  They believe they have found the original site and
    construction will start this year.  The Jews are still looking for the
    original site of the Jerusalem temple and the Ark of the Covenant. 
    They also plan to rebuild the temple and place the Ark in it.  This is
    key because the Antichrist will take up residence in the Jerusalem
    temple (as predicted in Revelations).  Also, last week's Boston Globe
    had an article covering Saddam Hussein's killing of the Shiites in the 
    south of Iraq.  He is damming the Euphrates to dry up the marshes so his 
    armies can get to them. The article and the editorial both said these 
    marshes have been there for 6000 years and for the first time they will be 
    dry (as predicted in Revelations 6:12). 
    
    Back to the EUC logo, there are several significances, most of them are 
    found in the book of Daniel, chapter 2.  Here Daniel deals with various 
    empires that we have seen throughout history (and described long before 
    they appeared on the earth).  It states that the 10-nation EUC will be 
    the final empire known to the world before the Second Coming.  The 
    Antichrist will rise out of the EUC.  Right now, there are 13 nations in 
    the EUC, three will drop out.  More importantly, there are no more 
    prophecies left to be fulfilled before the infamous rapture takes place.
    
    it won't be long gang,
    Mike

    Fascinating!

Is Antichrist like antifreeze? 

    It is fascinating!   Will we see the year 2000??     I think so....
    

    Headlines read:  "Ronald Wilson Reagan to sell CA ranch for sun spot in
    Jerusalem"
    
    
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    HhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

    Ok, besides me wanting to get this 69...

    you do realize I felt like I voted for the anti-christ himself when I
    voted for Reagan cuz each name in his name is 6 letters long ...

    ...but we don't know if 666 applies to an English, Hebrew, Aramaic,
    etc., name.

    What's Saddam's middle name?

    I don't know but weren't him and Reagan born on the same day......
    
    
    	June 6, 1906

    what a pile of utter shite!!!
    
    
                                                staynz

    re .364
    
    >> It is a picture of the Tower of Babel being rebuilt.  
  
    I have'nt seen this one. Sure it is'nt Blackpool Tower being 
    rebuilt under the EC presidency of Bernard Manning? "Europe:
    Many toungues, all foul mouthed." :^)
    
    No seriously, I am interested in this stuff, albeit accompanied
    by the odd pinch of salt (and that phrase in itself has Biblical
    leanings?).
    
    >> So what is the significance of this you may ask?  First of all, Saddam
    >> Hussein started a project to reconstruct the Tower of Babel when he
    >> took over Iraq.  They believe they have found the original site and
    >> construction will start this year.  
    
    I would'nt be at all surprised. I do know that he did commission the 
    rebuilding of Babylon a few years back. There was a feature in the 
    Sunday Times during the mid eighties which covered this. Seems that 
    the reconstruction, obviously located on the old site of Babylon, 
    included bricks engraved with "Built during the rule of Saddam Hussein"
    or similar. Saddam, in the tradition of all good despots, obviously 
    wants his name to echo down the centuries and it's not as if, by 
    birthright, he has descended from the ruling families of old Babylon; 
    if I'm not mistaken he's a bastard son of a poor family who managed 
    to muscle his way into power. Still, a loony come to that.
    
    I don't think the re-building of Babylon was completed as the Gulf
    War and subsequent financial problems may have put paid to that. Who
    know's, perhaps he's putting the finishing touches to it complete 
    with the Hanging Gardens. Personally I find the Gardens come in
    very handy when I'm playing "Civilisation". Keeps the natives 
    happy :^)

    >> It states that the 10-nation EUC will be 
    >> the final empire known to the world before the Second Coming. 
    
    Does the Bible hint at the location of the Messiah's birth/Second
    Coming. I've been led to believe it will be in "The Isle of Angels" 
    or England as it's otherwise known. Odds on are that it won't be
    in Basingstoke. Mmmmmm I'm curious about that. We'll have enough 
    problems holding the 2000 Olympics (should we get it) never mind 
    staging the Seccond Coming. I can just see it now "Coca Cola, 
    official drink of the Second Coming".  :^) No offence intended.
    
    >> The Antichrist will rise out of the EUC. 
    
    She already has. Her name's Margaret Thatcher but we managed to put
    her back in her box. :^)
                                                                 
    barry.  

    
    1906???  they can't be that old...
    
    

>    Does the Bible hint at the location of the Messiah's birth/Second
>    Coming. I've been led to believe it will be in "The Isle of Angels" 
    
    There will not be a birth, ala God incarnate, like there was the first
    time.

    
    Let it be known -- the Lord works in mysterious ways....
    
    About 15 years ago, I was in this metal band with this weird guy.  He
    was our Drummer, and he was heavy into the substance abuse.  Over time,
    he got involved in Satanism, etc. (we didn't really care, as long as he
    showed up sober for gigs and rehearsals!).  Anywho, lo and behold, one
    day this dude sees the light, becomes a Born-Again Christian, and quits
    the band.  That is all well and fine, but he subsequently BURNED all of
    my rock albums he had borrowed over the years!!!  ;'(  I lost over $200
    in albums that day!  ;'(
    
    Well, years go by, and time passes.  Who do I run into in the grocery
    store last night but this guy?!  He has like 7 kids now and is actively
    preeching the good word.  Since we sort of parked near one another, he
    says "Hey Buck, this friend of mine just got saved...he gave me his 
    entire CD collection to destroy (er, what is this connection between
    Salvation and destroying musical albums?!?).  I'm just gonna burn them
    or somthing, you want em?"  So I said "Sure"...
    
    Actually got back some of my albums I lost over a decade ago in that
    similar scenario ... weird, huh?

>    entire CD collection to destroy (er, what is this connection between
>    Salvation and destroying musical albums?!?).  I'm just gonna burn them
    
    The belief that there are supernatural forces behind the works of some
    of these bands and this verse:

 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing
 of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and
 perfect, will of God.       Romans 12:2

     Rep :Buck
    
        15 years Ago...How OLD were you 12 ?  or 15 ?
    
    /Sax
    

    I was 15...have been playing in bands since I was 13.

    
    
    I was 9 and though all girls had kooties...
    
    ;')

    
    
    Don't worry Mike, you'll overcome this problem... ;')

    I don't know, Whit.  Some people have maintained their sanity that way. 
    Ever meet a sane harem owner?