Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Caughtwatch III, Day IX!
                                    Denny

    Oh please, not more about Dean.  I'm sick of him.
    
    John

    Yeah, but John, the intent of this note is to provide all those who are
    sick of the Deanster an opportunity to hit NEXT UNSEEN here and then
    not worry about reading any more about him.
    
    'Course, one never can predict the wacky, wild and wonderful mind of
    the SPORTS_NOTER.
    
    Rich
    

    Dean Smith discussions are going to be all over the ACC note (heck,
    they probably make up about 90% of the ACC note) and have infiltrated
    all other college hoops notes.  Dean Discussions don't belong in the
    rugby note - that man cannot be allowed to pollute that noble sport.
    
    I'm afraid the ratholes will continue everyplace else and spread to
    here.
    
    John

    And here I thought that the ACC Basketball note was the semi-official
    "Dean Smith" note....  
    
    Rich, do everyone a favor and write-lock this one.  Based on past
    history, having a dedicated note is only going to make the whole
    situation worse, not better.  And while the on-going LDUC on Smith has
    a certain Sports tradition behind it, there really isn't sufficient
    *new* material to warrant its own note.
    
    A&W 

 � And while the on-going LDUC on Smith has a certain Sports tradition
 � behind it, there really isn't sufficient *new* material to warrant its own
 � note.
 
 Time and time again, I (with help from others) have proven this misguided
 observation to be wrong, wronger, wrongest.  There is *ALWAYS* something
 new in the Great Ongoing Snuff Debate.   Hell, lasted week, I went out and
 *personally* recruited a new entrant, a genuine North Carolina alum who
 then went and set the new all-time record for quickest SPORTS nickname.
 
 The past 12 months have seen so many new datapoints on the Snuff Radar
 Scope that I can't even begin to recount them all.  The 1991 Kansas loss
 alone provided months worth of new cannon fodder.   And this year we saw
 Snuff pervert "The System" I don't know how many times ... if it wasn't
 the Big East-ish Thug-A-Thon win over Duke then it was Hubie Davis scoring
 a "ridiculously high" 30 or more per game.
 
 Think about it ... If the Great Snuff Debate really and truly did suffer
 for lack of fresh new material, it would have died on its own years ago.  
 But it lives ... cause the main protagonist, the Reverend Snuffy E Smith,
 consistently dishes up new and exciting bashing ingredients.  We don't ask
 him to sub 93 times in a Final Four loss, we don't ask him to replace
 Montross with Salvadori as soon as Eric does something good, we don't ask
 him to faux-act nervous about Miami (Ohio) ... He just does it ... He's
 his own Nike commercial.
 
 However, I do agree that Snuffer doesn't deserve his own Note ... just
 like he doesn't deserve a plaque in the Hall Of Greatness, either.   The
 ACC Note is the primary battleground.
 
 Bob Hunt

       It seems to me the Grate debate is over! The chief Snuff Smoocher
    has headed for the hills. And it's obvious, probably to all but him,
    that Snuffy isn't even the best coach in N. Carolina anymore. Although
    it's been obvious to most others for quite some time!
                                      Denny

    Oh contraire, mon amis. The creation of this note was in conjucntion
    with the establishment of the all new Dean Watch Corps. The DWC reports
    to the Dean Smith Memorial Committee (Run DSMC) which has a dotted line
    reporting group; the Dean Patrol (DP). The DP is responsible for
    patrolling the notes and reporting to the Smith is God Police (SGP)
    any notes referring to the Right Reverend Dean D (for Dome) Smith. The
    SGP, then, is empowered by the Run DSMC to impose those transgressors
    to 5 hours of reading Candlepin Bowling notes.
    
    Rich
    

    
    	*I* for one like this special note for snuffy, maybe then we can
    get back to Basketball in the ACC file instead of the typical Dean
    this,Dean that!
    
    Thank you!
    
    B.A.

       Well Snuffy and the Socks do have one thing in common. They've both
    won 1 champeenship the last 74 years!
                                   Denny

    .13�                              -< "THE GREATEST" >-
    
    	Choker?
    
    B.A.
    

 This is *not* the Muhammed Ali note, Big Zero.
 
 Bob Hunt

    re.-1
    
    Wrecruited  Weasel
    
    Rod.

    Too slow.... sorry!
    
    re. -14
    
    Wrecuited  Weasel
    
    Rod.

    .17�    Too slow.... sorry!
    
    	Yep!  Too slow and too sorry that UNC doesn't have a better coach!
    :*)
    
    B.A.
    

     Okay weasels, I have a "SERIOUS" question for everyone...
    
    Is greatness based on championships alone, or are there other
    criteria involved to be considered a great coach.
    
    I may have went overboard when I said he was the greatest, but
    I do consider him one of the greatest.
    
    IMO, Championships are not the only measure to base a coach
    abilities on.
    
    BIG "O"
    
    

    	The greatest coach would let his seniors players determine the
    punishment for a law breaker?

    	The greatest coach would slap the player on the hand for breaking
    the law?
    	
    	The greatest coach would get all the top recruits and still not
    win the *big* one?

    	The greatest coach would keep his players from being the best
    player ever in the college ranks?...Jordon,Worthy,Scott..etc...

    	The greatest coach would smoke right in front of his players?

    	The greatest coach would get his own dome while he's still living?

    It's makes you wonder how you keep from going under sometimes!

    B.A.
     

    B.A. You forgot one thing.
    
    The greatest coach also has never let his program go on probation!!!
    
    Do you know what I mean...
    
                            SURE YOU DO!!!
    
    
    BIG "O"
    
    

    .21�    The greatest coach also has never let his program go on probation!!!
    
    	That's because Deano sleeps with the NCAA..fwiw...he gets want he
    wants(read no probation) and they get what they want..need(someone to
    look utlerly stupid while walking off the court after his 2nd
    technical!)
    
    B.A.

 Okay, Big "O", I'll give you an attempt at an objective answer to your
 question ...
 
 No one in here has *ever* questioned Dean Smith's ability to ...
 
     1. Recruit top-notch basketball talent
     2. Win lotsa basketball games
     3. Run a squeaky clean and honest basketball program
     4. Qualify for post-season play
 
 In my opinion, his distinct lack of national championship titles over his
 long career violates statistical probability and thus I believe that his
 bench coaching philosophies have to be seriously questioned in order to
 rationalize this "problem".  
 
 In other words, the mathematics of 1-for-31 are too improbable to accept
 as just bad luck ... Dean's "system" and his gameday tactics are somehow
 flawed.
 
 Therefore, when his loyal fans exercise their intense hero worship and
 insist that claims of all-time greatness be awarded to him, I believe that
 is a clear case of blind faith.  And *THAT* is what I crusade against. 
 You read those letters to the editor I posted yesterday in the ACC note. 
 Those are rock solid datapoints on the graph of blind faith.
 
 I have no problem giving unto Dean his rightful due.  I can understand why
 his fans like him and the success he gives them.  I cannot understand why
 they hold him so completly sacrosanct and above all reproach for what
 appear to me to be obvious shortcomings in the clutch.   He can not win
 the Big One and his rival 8 miles away has dealt him a killer blow with
 his latest win on Monday night.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Big "O"
    
    My logic says since Snuffy has more rings than LOUIEEEE, who I consider
    a good coach who has none and is a good coach, then Snuffy is a greeat
    coach.
    
    Add to the fact that in 32 days LOUIEEEE gets into the Basketball of
    Fame (!) ;^)he's considered by others more BBall knowledgable than I to
    be a good coach;
    
    therefore I acknowledge Snuffy is a great coach.  I have grave
    reservations, however, about lifting him to "greatest" status (as I do
    for LOUIEEEEE).
    
    my $0.02
    
    I remain,
    waiting for May 11
    Kev
    

     Thanks Bob on your honest reply. 
    
    Even though you bring up alot of valid points, which I do agree with,
    we're still at odds over how we measure greatness. This argument
    will probably go on and on forever, because there is no one way to
    measure true greatness.
                                                                         
    Lets start with Championships,
    
    Yes, I do feel like Dean should have won more Championships, but I do
    not measure greatness on Championships alone.
    
    If this was the case, would Steve Fisher been considered a "great"
    coach if he had won two titles in three years??
    
    
    
    
    Alot of you in here think Baby Blue fans have 2 Gods, and one of them
    is Dean. Well I'm a Baby Blue fan but I think he is far from being a
    God. Dean makes mistakes just like every other coach (Actually Alot
    Fewer) 8^) but anyway, the consistency he has shown over the years
    keeping the program on top in the TOUGHEST conference has to say
    alot for him, no matter how much talent he has had over the years, it
    still is very remarkable feat on his part. 
                                                      
    
    
    
    Objectively yours, 
               
    BIG "O"
    

    WHAT...
    
     Two honest and objective replies in one night.
    
    
    Thanks Kev,  Your measurement must be similar to mine.
               
    BIG "O"
      
    
    

I think Meat has started a very disturbing trend. First criticism of Dean
by a real Tar Heel. And now, "Dean is not God". 

What the sam hail is going on here...

TTom

    My own personal measure of greatness in a coach is whether or not he
    enables the players on his team to perform *better* than their native
    ability alone would enable them to play.  A coach could, therefor,
    never win a title and still be great if all of his players were poor to
    mediocre, but he kept his teams consistently in the hunt for game or
    conference wins.  This definition also implies flexibility on the part 
    of the coach to teach, motivate, and showcase the best points of
    his/her players.
    
    A&W

    Alison, the one thing that bothers me about your definition of
    greatness is a guy like Pat Riley when he was with the Lakers (or even
    KC Jones when he was with the Celtics).  These are coaches who had a
    lot of talent to work with and kept it playing together.  To me, that
    can be a harder job as a coach.
    
    John

    Good note A&W.  There are MANY great coaches who have never come close
    to the Final Four.  Alot has to do with available talent.  You may be
    an excellent teacher and motivator, but without athletic talent, you're
    not gonna win any titles.
    
    I believe Bob Hunt has a valid point regarding Dean.  Dean can't
    complain about not having had the talent to win the Big One!  On the
    contrary, he's had some of the best talent in the nation for the past
    16-20 years.  For this reason I don't believe you can put Dean up there
    with some of the coaching legends.  This doesn't mean he's not a great
    coach.  I believe he is.  His record proves it.  However, I'm not ready
    to put him in the same league as Wooden, Rupp, etc.  
    
    What's upsetting is that Carolina fans seem oblivious to these facts. 
    A little objectivity goes a long way folks!
    
    SET MODE/RAMBLE
    
    On the other hand, is Bob Knight as GREAT as some noters in here think? 
    I don't believe so, and I'll tell you why.  I believe there are several
    factors we need to look at in determining greatness.
    
    	 - Good Teacher
    	 - Knowledge of the Game
    	 - Good Game Coach
    	 - Good Motivator
    	 - Positive Role Model
    	 - Recruiting
    
    We all acknowledge that Bob's a good teacher and obviously knows the
    game.  Is he a good game coach?  Not sure if he's great at it.  Look at
    the Duke game where no adjustments were made and IU went greater then
    10 minutes in the second half with only 5 points scored!  Not trying to
    flame anybody, that's a fact.  Look at the OSU game in Bloomington this
    season where IU had a 20 point lead and let OSU run off 20 straight
    points or so before calling a timeout.  Sure, they ended up winning the
    game, but we certainly can't attribute that to great bench coaching. 
    More so we can attribute it to the unruly style OSU tends to play.
    
    Can't knock Bob on motivation.  It's proven that he certainly gets the
    most out of his players.  In fact, IMO, this may be the best quality
    Knight has.  
    
    We all know what kind of role model Knight is.  He falls down big time
    in this category.  It's an integral part of coaching, and I'm afraid
    his ego gets in the way big time with this one.  This bullet needs no
    further elaboration.
    
    Recruiting.  Simply put, Knight is not known as one of the best
    recruiters.  There was a period in the mid to late 80's where IU's
    recruiting was horrible.
    
    I've said all of this to hopefully enlighten some that there is alot
    more to coaching then just W's.  Knight certainly is a great coach.  No
    doubt about it.  However, I don't believe he's the best coach in the
    country for the reasons mentioned above.
    
    ROPE

    And WHO said it was a waste of space to enter this note????
    
    Lesse, Is Bobby Bowden a great coach?
    
    Is Terry Donahue a great coach?
    
    Was Tom Landry a great coach?
    
    Was Bud Grant a great coach?
    
    Was Darrel Royal a great coach?
    
    Is Tom Osborne a great coach?
    
    Is Joe Paterno a great coach?
    
    What do these guys all have in common? They all had/have winning
    college programs but they seldom, if ever, won championships. They all
    had pretty good talent. Does Dean Smith belong in this list?
    
    Rich
    

    
    > Is Joe Paterno a great coach?
    >
    > What do these guys all have in common? They all had/have winning
    > college programs but they seldom, if ever, won championships. They all
    > had pretty good talent. Does Dean Smith belong in this list?
    
    I demand that Joe Paterno be removed from this list!  Paterno has won
    two championships and had three other undefeated, untied teams where
    the issue was decided by the pollsters, not on the playing field.  Joe
    Paterno does not deserve such shabby treatment as to be placed in the
    Snuffy Smif' note!
    
    Darrell Royal also won two championships and shared a third, and Tom
    Landry won two Super Bowls.  The rest of the coaches on your list did
    not attain greatness, though...
    
    glenn
    

I agree with Glenn concerning Paterno.

I don't think anyone is saying that only titles count. Also, lack of
titles doesn't necessarily mean that much either. Concerning titles, the
issue is whether the coach won when he shoulda. 

TTom

 Titles are *not* the sole measurement of greatness.   They're just one of
 several factors including lifetime winning %age, program integrity, talent
 levels, innovative additions, motivational appeal and so on.
 
 "Greatness" is achieved by scoring well in *ALL* categories and criteria. 
 You can't be great in all _but_ one category and still expect people to
 ignore the one blemish.  Snuff's title dearth kills him.  He's had the
 talent *and* the chances for at least 4 or 5 more titles than just '82 ...
 '77, '81, '84, '87, and '91 at the very least, in my opinion.
 
 Suppose, for example, that John Wooden's UCLA program was found to be
 horribly corrupted during the time he won 10 titles in 11 years.   Suppose
 there was rampant grade-fixing, cash payments, loose women, fast cars,
 point shaving and so on.   Would we take his "Greatness" plaque away ???
 
 Absolutely.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Joe Paterno meets every single measure of greatness ever dreamed of.

	re .30

	Disagree with your methodology, Bob.  Schneid used to use something
similar in the great Bob vs. Dean debate.  To parphrase him, "Sure, Knight's 
won a lot of titles, but Dean's a better recruiter, so at worst Dean's even
with him."  It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

	Recruiting, motivation, game adjustments --- all of these exist for 
one reason in college sports.  That reason is winning.  I'll agree that a 
coach can be a great coach without winning a lot of championships under some
circumstances.  But the idea that someone who produces the results of a Knight,
or Wooden, or Rupp, or Krzyzewski (I've been practicing, did it help?) can be
labeled as less than great because they happen to not be perfect at one or more
parts of their job seems to me to be illogical.  Maybe it would be possible for
each of these coaches to be **BETTER** than they are, but greatness isn't 
measured by the factors you listed.  Greatness is measured by what the sum of 
the coach's performance in each of those categories produces.  The results, 
after all, are the point.

	Now, if you want to propose that great coaches have to be great role
models, you can make a valid case that Knight isn't a great coach.  I'd still
disagree, but the argument would at least be supportable.

tom

    
    >We all acknowledge that Bob's a good teacher and obviously knows the
    >game.  Is he a good game coach?  Not sure if he's great at it.  Look at
    >the Duke game where no adjustments were made and IU went greater then
    >10 minutes in the second half with only 5 points scored!  Not trying to
    >flame anybody, that's a fact.  Look at the OSU game in Bloomington this
    >season where IU had a 20 point lead and let OSU run off 20 straight
    >points or so before calling a timeout.  Sure, they ended up winning the
    >game, but we certainly can't attribute that to great bench coaching. 
    >More so we can attribute it to the unruly style OSU tends to play.
    
    Well Rope, name a coach that hasn't lost these type of leads, included
    your beloved Pitino(are you willing to say Kentucky hasn't lost big
    leads this year or have lost to inferior teams).  Two very weak examples
    in an illustrious career.  Not a good game coach?, very weak examples and
    even weaker analysis.  Got to do better..... For each one of these 
    examples I can provide one where IU won a game that they were not 
    favored to win, plus with a little digging I'm sure I could apply
    your above scenario to any coach that you would name as a 'good' game
    coach.  Please provide a in-depth analysis on the mistakes Knight
    consistently makes during games over his career and provide specific
    examples that prove he's a poor game coach.

    >Can't knock Bob on motivation.  It's proven that he certainly gets the
    >most out of his players.  In fact, IMO, this may be the best quality
    >Knight has.  
    
    The best out there....

    >We all know what kind of role model Knight is.  He falls down big time
    >in this category.  It's an integral part of coaching, and I'm afraid
    >his ego gets in the way big time with this one.  This bullet needs no
    >further elaboration.

    Again no doubting that Bob has his faults and made mistakes but there
    is also no doubting that the press has blown alot of situations way out
    of proportion.  I do not agree with many of his actions but I certainly
    don't base my opinions based on only part of the story.

    However the media does not report the positive things this man does like
    giving Landon Turner's family $60,000 dollars when they could not afford
    some hospital bills or the numerous charitable events he attends and 
    raises money for or his donating his 6-figure shoe contract to charity
    or to the school on a yearly basis or insuring that his players get an
    education and graduate.  How many of these stories do you hear?  

    I have yet to hear one quote from a former player that said I made a 
    mistake by attending IU, even the players that transferred(such as 
    Ricky Calloway and Delray Brooks) say that Knight was a positive influence
    on his life.

    But I'm not goint to get into a rathole over this is Bob Knight a 
    good or bad person.  I'm just surprised that you would prejudge a person
    Wildcat without knowing the full story of a situation or without knowing
    the person.  Do you always base your opinions on limited facts and
    heresay?
    
    >Recruiting.  Simply put, Knight is not known as one of the best
    >recruiters.  There was a period in the mid to late 80's where IU's
    >recruiting was horrible.
    
    Knight's terrible recruiting landed him a championship in 1987, I 
    guess since he couldn't recruit he must be one hell of a game coach.
    Which is it Wildcat poor recruiter or poor game coach.

    I think he is a poor recruiter.
                                                           
    >I've said all of this to hopefully enlighten some that there is alot
    >more to coaching then just W's.  Knight certainly is a great coach.  No
    >doubt about it.  However, I don't believe he's the best coach in the
    >country for the reasons mentioned above.
     
    I don't think he's the best coach in the country either but he's certainly
    one of the best.  I certainly believe that Coach K is the best coach in
    the game and have said on many occasions that Pete Carill is a fantastic
    Coach.  There are many coaches not as publicized that are certainly
    better than a certain glitzy coach that wears $3,000 suits and tries
    to make it seem like the NCAA was wrong to punish a corrupt program.:-)
    
    Cap

 Actually, I think Bob Knight's a solid role model.  I'd have *no* problem
 sending my kid to learn about hoops and some of life's rich pageant from
 him.  I *love* the way he handles the media and I believe he's one of the
 most honest and direct public figures the sports world has ever seen.
 
 I don't give a rat's butt about throwing chairs or stuffing LSU fans in a
 trash can.   That's genuine emotion resulting from intense effort and
 caring.  One thing's for sure ... *if* Bob Knight ever smoked a joint, you
 can be sure he definitely inhaled.
 
 Bob Hunt

    I won't remove Joe P's name, Glenn. The point I was trying to make with
    the list I published is that you have a group of coaches who have been
    very successful. How many years has Joe been coaching? He has 2
    national champs. If you use the champeenship ratio arguement, Joe
    might be close to catching the Snuffman. I know, I know, Joe, in my
    mind is the best college coach the game has seen at the big college
    level. 
    
    And with Landry, the guy had some fantastic talent in Dallas yet only
    had 2 SuperBowls to show for it. Should he be left off the "great
    list"? How abouit Bowden? He has to have one of the top 2 or 3 Won/Lost
    records over the last 10 years. Got the FSU program on the map by
    agreeing to play all the heavyweights away from Tallahasse. Because the
    national title has passed him by is he a mediocre coach?
    
    As Bob Hunt has said, the mark of a great coach is not simply one
    aspect of what he/she has accomplished. Motivation, planning,
    recruitment, dedication to the best interests of the players/students, 
    personal character all contribute. That is why I consider Bud Grant a great
    coach.
    
    Come to think of it, could we place Bear Bryant and Dean Smiff in the
    same category?
    
    Rich
    

    
    I don't know, Bob.  I'm not sure that all of this effort by Knight to 
    calm himself down in the last few years is working.  I'm sincerely
    worried about Knight's sometimes aberrant behavior and that he might
    slip over the edge Woody Hayes-style one of these days.
    
    Knight's way is only one way, and I'm not sure that it's the best way
    (I'd prefer Coach K, who obviously demands toughness, but keeps it
    behind closed doors and never humiliates a player in public).  I do 
    think that Knight's still the best basketball mind in the game, but I
    think that his personal approach with players has been overrated by 
    many because of the results he's produced.  In other words, if Knight
    weren't winning, I think 100% of the people would think he's a
    certified lunatic instead of the 50% who already do.
    
    I *would* give a second thought to sending my kid to play for Knight if
    his goals were more than just to play basketball.  I think I'd have to
    be worried about that transfer rate and the abuse these guys take in
    order to become better basketball players (and supposedly better
    people for it, which is a sports cliche that just won't die, apparently).
    It all seems a bit much to me for a simple thing like college 
    basketball...
    
    glenn
    

>    Come to think of it, could we place Bear Bryant and Dean Smiff in the
>    same category?

When Dean quits, they would both be ex-coaches.

TTom

    Cap, you questioned my reasoning on poor recruiting and game coaching
    and brought up the 1987 championship season for IU.  The only reason I
    brought up bench coaching was that all I hear in here is how Bob never
    makes a mistake, he's the greatest, blah, blah, blah.  I have no desire
    to try and make a case either for or against him being a good bench
    coach.  I was just pointing out two highly visible instances this
    season where IMO, he coached poorly.
    
    In regards to the 1987 championship, Knight recruited 2 JUCO players
    (Smart and Garret) which were integral parts of the team.  Never mind
    the fact that Knight had previously stated he would never go JUCO!  He
    still wasn't recruiting well in 1987.  I don't believe IU was the best
    team in the country in 1987.  Do you?  If so, please explain why.  I
    won't go into the reasons of why not unless you differ with me on this
    point.
    
    WILDROPE

    re -1.  
    
    Incredible note Glenn.  You said in a couple short paragraphs what I've
    been preaching in the Great Midwest for years now!
    
    ROPE

    AGain Glenn, 
    
    How much of this is media hype and how much of it is real?  Knight's
    done nothing in recent years including this year to show that he's
    going to slip over the edge ala Woody Hayes.  Let's not push reality
    here.  Knight is no angel but he has certainly done nothing recently
    that warrants such a comparison.
    
    I'm sure that Knight's transfer rate(where it was direct transfers and
    not just leaving early) is probably no higher than the average within
    college sports and many of the players transfer not because of Knight
    but because they either don't play or don't fit into his team's style
    and he urges them to transfer(like he did for Delray Brooks).  We can't
    assume that because Knight can be an ass that his players transfer
    because of that as there is no overwhelming evidence of that or should
    we just assume that every player that transfers from say Penn State
    does so because of Joe Paterno.
    
    Can you give me recent examples of when he has humiliated his players in
    public.  Coach K certainly has similar methods with his players when it
    comes to game situations(getting in kid's faces during games).
    
    >I *would* give a second thought to sending my kid to play for Knight if
    >his goals were more than just to play basketball.  I think I'd have to
    >be worried about that transfer rate and the abuse these guys take in
    >order to become better basketball players (and supposedly better
    >people for it, which is a sports cliche that just won't die, apparently).
    >It all seems a bit much to me for a simple thing like college 
    >basketball...
    
    Who to say that IU players take more abuse than a Carolina player or
    a Duke player or a Penn St Football player.  Do you have any concrete
    evidence to back this up or do you just ignore the good things that his
    former players say about him?  I would venture to guess that you have
    never attended an IU practice, never talked with an IU player and only
    base these opinions of this supposed abuse on 2nd hand reports or 
    on the limited views that the media provides.  So you probably have 
    about 1% of the total information available, what happens in the other 
    99%?
    
    Cap

	<Never mind the fact that Knight had previously stated he would never 
	<go JUCO! 


	Don't believe that is a fact, Bob.  Knight didn't WANT to go JUCO, and
still doesn't.  But *I* never heard a statement like the one you cited, and
I listen VERY closely.

tom

    
    > Who to say that IU players take more abuse than a Carolina player or
    > a Duke player or a Penn St Football player.  Do you have any concrete
    > evidence to back this up or do you just ignore the good things that his
    > former players say about him?  I would venture to guess that you have
    > never attended an IU practice, never talked with an IU player and only
    > base these opinions of this supposed abuse on 2nd hand reports or 
    > on the limited views that the media provides.  So you probably have 
    > about 1% of the total information available, what happens in the other 
    > 99%?
    
    Calm down, Cap.  I didn't say that I would forbid, out of hand, my son 
    to play basketball for Bob Knight.  As opposed to Bob Hunt's glowing
    recommendation of Knight as more than just a basketball coach but a
    "role model", I said that I would give it a second thought, and look 
    into these things.  I think there's enough there to do at least that.  
    Just last night SI had some numbers on Knight's record with transfers, 
    but I must admit that they didn't give a national average or anything.  
    What they did say was that in the wake of this bullwhip non-scandal, 
    that Knight exaggerated his graduation rate with minority players (he's 
    graduated 8 of 11 in the four years over his 20-year career; many others 
    have gotten out).  I guess I have to admit that I was less than 
    impressed at first glance...
    
    Knight's behavior is not something that's hidden, something that some
    reporter has to dig deep to find and then twist to fit his story. 
    Contrary to what some would have you believe, that's not what John
    Feinstein did (and there's plenty of documented humiliation in that
    book, as well as evidence of the other side of Bob Knight).  Knight's
    very out in the open.  Just in the last couple of weeks in his press
    conferences Knight has entertained with his non-stop streams of 
    profanity mixed in with his insults of the media (and yes, sometimes of
    himself).  Some of it was funny, some of it wasn't.  Big deal, you say?  
    Well, I for one thought that it was more than just a little bizarre and 
    fairly poor public behavior from a supposed educator and "role model".
    And I didn't have to pick up some scandal rag to find out about it...
    
    glenn
     

    >I don't believe IU was the best team in the country in 1987.  Do you?  
    >If so, please explain why.  I won't go into the reasons of why not unless 
    >you differ with me on this point.                                 
    
    Well let's see Rope, I don't have my sources with me but I believe that
    IU was ranked #1 heading in the final AP poll prior to the tourney, 
    they finished the season at 30-4, they had the best coach in the game
    at the time and won the championship.
    
    I don't know how I would rank that team that year without studying the
    rest of teams that were in it but if you'd like me to I will this
    weekend.
    
    And if you don't feel they were the best team than it must have been
    one incredible coaching feat by Mr. Knight to drive that team to 
    the championship.
    
    So since you think he was recruiting poorly than you must agree that he
    was a great coach to lead mediocre talent to a title in 87 and an
    entirely unexpected Big10 title in 1989?
    
    Like taking candy from a baby,
    
    Cap :-)

	It certainly seems, Cap, that you and T have given us plenty
	of the good sides of Knight, and I suspect we have far more
	than 1% of the information available.  As far as whether or not
	we would send our kids to play basketball for Knight (which is
	what Glenn was discussing), what information would you expect
	us to use when making that decision ?  Information that we do
	have, or information that we don't have which may or may not
	"exonerate" Bob regarding his personal behavior ?

	Personally, I'd steer my kids away from Bob's school, if they
	really wanted to play basketball were good at it.  He is a
	great game coach, and his team might beat my son's team in a big
	game, but I feel they'd get more from a lot of coaches as compared
	to BK.  On the other hand, if the whole objective in a student's
	life was to win an NCAA basketball title, IU would be one of the
	2-3 schools to which I'd send him.

    
    Perfectly calm Glenn, but since there is absolutely no evidence that
    Knight's players take any more abuse than players in any other program,
    I just thought that you would not make such a vaugue and unsupported
    accusation.
    
    >Just in the last couple of weeks in his press
    >conferences Knight has entertained with his non-stop streams of 
    >profanity mixed in with his insults of the media (and yes, sometimes of
    >himself).  Some of it was funny, some of it wasn't.  Big deal, you say?  
    >Well, I for one thought that it was more than just a little bizarre and 
    >fairly poor public behavior from a supposed educator and "role model".
    >And I didn't have to pick up some scandal rag to find out about it...
    
    I have no problem with your opinions based on something like this if
    you don't agree with it, however I felt that the general labeling
    was unwarranted since you did not focus on positive aspects.
    
    The 8 out of 11 stat is I believe players who graduated within 4 years.
    Players that graduated in 5 years or came back to complete their 
    degree are not included in this.  I would have to get an IU media guide
    to confirm this though.  
    
    I certainly agree with you on many of Knight's actions, there's no
    doubting that he says and does stupid things.  However this is a small
    fraction of the time he spends with these players and the media
    certainly never focuses on 'good' Bobby Knight stories as they don't
    sell papers.
    
    Cap

    You're right Rich, I might not even send my own kid to IU.  But I
    would certainly sit down with any coach who would be interested so
    that I could form my own opinion based on that person's inputs to 
    me and how he could help my child become a better overall person.
    It's quite possible that my ideals would not match Knight's.

	Surely one should get Knight's input if he were recruiting
	your son, but to say that there is "absolutely no evidence"
	that Knight isn't a good role model compared to any other
	coach is just being blind.  Of course there is evidence.
	There may be evidence on the other side as well, but there is
	evidence, and a lot of it.  It may not be CONCLUSIVE, but there
	is a lot of evidence, and it is persuasive.

    Rich,
    
    Reread my notes as you've misintepreted something.  I have never
    said that there was no evidence that Knight isn't a good role model.
    In fact I've said that he's done stupid things and said stupid things
    in the last few notes(I've also said that I don't agree with many of
    the things that he does).  I did however say that there is no evidence
    that says his players take any more abuse than other programs.
    
    Please don't misinterpret my comments as I certainly agree with you 
    and others that Knight has done some pretty stupid things(as we all
    have).  I just don't agree with blanket statements that cover a broad
    spectrum and are unsupported by evidence.
    
    Cap

     I absolutely REFUSe to talk about Dean Smith in this note.  I've
    nexted unseen them all since .4
    
    Instead, I'm going to talk about other things.
    
    I was teaching a class at Hughes aircraft in El Segundo this week, and
    the class was a mix of computer nerd technoweenies from Hughes, and two
    woman from TRW in San Diego.   I ate lunch every day with the two TRW's
    gaLS AND the one Hughes guy that was in a normal state of social
    functionality.
    
    Well, yesterday at lunch I almost split my gut.  The conversation got
    onto the subject of cars. Now the onle TRW lady drove a Mazda RX7
    Turbo, as did the HJughes guy.   The other TRW was this cute Pixie of a
    woman, married to a Marine Semper Fi dude, but she was absolutely cute
    -  could just make ya melt.  Well, I asked her "Kathy, what do you
    drive?"
    
    And in an enthusiastic tone, she blurted  "I drive a woodie!"
    
    Well, Gentlepeople of SPORTS, I almost spit my grilled cheese up
    through my nose.  She was perplexed about my reaction, so I just
    mumbled the old "Wentdown the wrong pipe..."
    
    Of course, she was talking about them cars - but the image of her
    driving a woodie had me, well woodward.  ;-)
    
    JD
    
    PS:  I found Supermarket Heaven.   In El Segundo.  Babe-a-lon.  
    Bigtime.
    
    

    Cap, what's some of the blanket statments you've seen made about Bob
    the Great?  Also, what more evidence would you like to see produced?
    :-)
    
    Regarding 1987 once again.  I believe you stated Bob K. was the best
    coach in basketball that year.  Got any *evidence* to back that up Cap? 
    Or is that your *unbiased* opinion?
    
    No, IU was not the best team in basketball that year.  Obviously they
    won the title.  However, they were not the most talented team in
    college basketball.  LSU choked in the Final Four by not hitting their
    throws after having a big lead.  Syracuse did the same thing. 
    Remember?  One Derrick Coleman standing at the free-throw line at the
    end of the game 'Cuse up by one.  Knight received alot of breaks that
    year that had absolutely NOTHING to do with his coaching ability.
    
    Took my candy back,
    
    ROPE

Who is more repsonsible for the free-falling nose dive of the Digital
stock:

	Dean or Bobby.

Send your votees to Chris Knorr.

TTom

    >No, IU was not the best team in basketball that year.  Obviously they
    >won the title.  However, they were not the most talented team in
    >college basketball.  LSU choked in the Final Four by not hitting their
    >throws after having a big lead.  Syracuse did the same thing. 
    >Remember?  One Derrick Coleman standing at the free-throw line at the
    >end of the game 'Cuse up by one.  Knight received alot of breaks that
    >year that had absolutely NOTHING to do with his coaching ability.
    
    Whew, opened my eyes with that incredible, fact-filled, expose on 
    how Bob Knight lucked himself into a title.  You should write a book
    Rope, stop hiding that intellectual talent from the world.  They
    deserve to share in your intellectual mastery of analysis. :-)
    
    I guess a 30-4 record, a Big10 title, a #1 ranking and an NCAA title
    was all due to luck since his rotation consisted of the following
    players: Steve Alford, Daryl Thomas, Keith Smart, Ricky Calloway(who
    played with a broken wrist), Dean Garrett, Steve Eyl, Joe Hillman
    and Todd Meier, surely any coach can win with that talent.  They 
    match up well with the 84 Carolina squad of Jordan, Perkins, Smith,
    Daugherty, Popson, Wolf, etc.
    
    Keep it up, you have me wanting to read more....
    
    (Stealing a line from Mr. Farley)
    
    I remain soundly beaten,
    
    Cap :-)
    
    P.S. Of course I have never said they were the most talented team in 
         the country, I simply said they were the best team.

    Cap, sounds as if you're a bit sensitive today.  Truth hurts don't it.
    
    :-),
    
    Rope

    Rope,
    
    Is that the best comeback you can come up with?  Truth didn't hurt at
    all, your 'truth' had me laughing so much that my sides hurt and I'm
    going to have spend all afternoon cleaning the diet pepsi off my screen
    from laughing with my mouth full.
    
    Thanks for the comedy, it really put me in a good mood.

    Maybe there ought to be an "Official Bob Knight Note" to discuss Dean
    Smith...  :-)
    
    

 I thought UNLV was the No. 1 ranked team going into the 1987 NCAA's. 
 Armon Gilliam, Gerald Paddio, and so on.
 
 Wasn't Knight's Final Four win over them an upset ???
 
 Bob Hunt

       Anyone think Knight Jr will transfer to Caroliner where he won't
    have to worry about these little scrapes with the law?
                                       Denny

    re 253.57
    
    >> your 'truth' had me laughing so much that my sides hurt...
    >> Thanks for the comedy, it really put me in a good mood.
    
    Golly Cap, nice to know your so easily amused.  Sounds like you've been
    listening a little too much to Bob's humor filled press conferences.
    
    ROPE

    Wildcat & Cap, take it easy, 'kay?
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I think Dean Smith is terribly overrated.  I feel sorry for those
    mega talented Carolina kids that have never reached their full
    potential.  It's such a shame.
    
    Thanks for slapping me out of it Dan'l.

    Here's an amazing Dean stat:
    
    UNC has finished the regular season in the top 10 in the final regular
    season AP poll 19 times in the last 25 years(10 times in the top 4
    teams).  Should this be a measure of his greatness or proof that 
    he chokes when the pressure of winning a tournament is on.
    
    To add to the discussion, I present this fact.
    
    In the last 31 years, a team ranked in the top 3 in the nation in the
    final regular season AP poll has won the NCAA title an amazing 23 times
    (this is from the sports almanac).  Teams ranked in the top 10 have
    won it, 28 of 31 times.  Only two unranked teams have won the tourney.
    
    So is Dean great or a choker?
       
    Cap
    

    Another interesting tidbit is that Dean Smith has never been honored
    by the UPI, USBWA, AP or Naismith foundation as a coach of the year.
    However Knight has won these honors 2, 3, 3, and 1 time(s) respectfully.

 >I thought UNLV was the No. 1 ranked team going into the 1987 NCAA's. 
 >Armon Gilliam, Gerald Paddio, and so on.
 
 >Wasn't Knight's Final Four win over them an upset ???
 
 >Bob Hunt
    
    Bob, I'll check tonight but I'm pretty certain that IU had the top
    ranked team that year.  Of course Roper would consider that IU beating
    UNLV an upset since they didn't have the 'best' team that year :-), 
    so we actually could have had IU ranked #1 and still had them upset
    UNLV.
    
    Anyway it's already been proven that squad did not accomplish anything
    and was poorly coached(see Professor's Roper's thesis) and they were
    just lucky in achieving that title, their #1 ranking, the Big 10 title
    and a 30-4 record(if that makes sense).
    
    Cap
    

>    ... Only two unranked teams have won the tourney.

NC State in 83 and who else?

TTom

    Partially correct Tom,
    
    Villanova in 85'
    
    NC State was actually ranked #16 in 1983, Kansas was the other unranked
    team in 88.  I believe this was based on their amazing run through the
    ACC Tourney that year.

     Okay Okay, enough about Bob Knight in the Dean Dome file. 
    
    Many of you in your replies stated that there is more to being
    a "GREAT" coach that Championships itself, such as Recruiting,
    Positive Role Model, Game Coach, Motivator, and Overall Knowledge
    of the Game.
    
    Using this as a tool of measurement, I'm curious to know who
    would be your top 5 (in order) coaching today...
    
    
    
    Here's mine.
    
    1. Coach K
    
    2. Dean Smith
    
    3. Bob Knight
    
    4. Rick Pitino
    
    5. Roy Williams
    
    
    
    
    BIG "O"
    

  1.  Dean Smith

  2.  Jim Boehiem

  3.  Lute Olson

  4.  Lou Henson

  5.  John Thompson.....

  top 5? oh I though you said worst 5 well my top 5 would be

   Knight, K, Dicky Tyrant, Gary Williams, and PJ Carlismo..

  Dale Brown and Nolan Richardson run neck and neck with any in that list of
  5

 Pitino and Williams probably belong on with Knight and the gang...


 mike

 Top 5 college coaches ...
 
    1. Mike Krzyzewski
    2. Bob Knight
    3. Roy Williams
    4. Rick Pitino
    5. PJ Carlisemo
 
 Special mention to Pete Carrill, Rollie Massimino, Lon Krueger, Lute
 Olson, Wimp Sanderson, Bobby Cremins, Johnny Orr, Randy Ayers, Lou
 Carnesecca, Rick Barnes, George Raveling, and John Calipari.
 
 And you cannot ignore Steve Fisher's two runs thru the Big Dance, no
 matter how bad he might be at times.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Terry Holland, at his finest in '84 and '89, woulda made this group,
 too.

    Top...Coach's
    
    
    	
    	1.Coach K
    	2.Coach Knight
    	3.Coach Kennedy
    	4.Coach Williams_Roy
    	5.Coach Cremmins
    	6.Coach Robinson
     	7.Coach Williams_Gary
    	8.Coach Estes
    	9.Coach Brown
       10.Coach ??????  ah heck, I can't thunk of any more Great coachs!
    
    B.A.

    re .71
    
    Pretty impressive list of coaches Bob.  What do you think of these
    guys?
    
    Pete Gillen - Xavier
    Bob Huggens - Cincinnati
    Gene Keady  - Purdue
    Eddie Sutton- Oklahoma State
    Billy Tubbs - Oklahoma
    Tom Penders - Texas (still there?)
    Jim O'Brien - University of Dayton
    Denny Crum -  University of Louisville
    
    Gillen is an interesting fella.  He withdrew his name from the
    Villanova list this week.  Nova almost certainly would have offered him
    the job.  Gillen as you know could've also had the Notre Dame job last
    year.  I'm a bit surprised that Denny Crum wasn't mentioned on anybodys
    list.  Wildcat and Cardinal fans like to go at it, but there's no
    denying what Crum's done at the 'ville over the last 20 years.
    
    Not necessarily my top choices, just wanted to add a few interesting
    choices to the list.
    
    WILDCAT

    
    Bob,
    
    Checked my sources, you were correct, IU only had a #1 seed and were 
    ranked 3rd behind in the regular season poll behind NC and UNLV.  So
    IU's accomplishments that year were a #3 ranking, 30-4 record, a
    victory over the #1 team in the country, a Big10 title, a NCAA title
    and this was done with a coach who was voted the best coach in the 
    game that year by the coaches, sportswriters and broadcasters who 
    vote for the Naismith award for Top coach(of course Rope says there
    is no evidence that anyone thought he was the top coach that year).
    
    Cap

    NOt a bad list Rope, but you did include a convicted cheater in 
    your list which of course makes your list less impressive.  I'm
    surprised that you had forgotten that, but when you root for a program
    as corrupt as Kentucky has been over the years I can see how you 
    might overlook Mr. Sutton's transgressions.
    
    Cap :-)

    My top 10:
    
    1. Coach K
    2. Knight
    3. Williams
    4. Carlisimo
    5. Kennedy
    6. Ayers
    7. Pitino
    8. Carill
    9. Huggins
    10 Cremins
    
    Other who deserve recognition are; Dick Harter, Rick Majerus, Pete
    Gillen, Jim Calhoun, Denny Crum, Mike Montgomery, MK Turk, Alan
    LaForce, Dean Smith, Tom Penders, Neil McCarthy, Tom Davis, Steve
    Fisher, Louie Carnesecca and Rollie Massimino(this is in no particular
    order).

 Pete Gillen, Tom Penders, and Denny Crum should also make the special
 mention list.  Major faux-pas to leave off Crum.
 
 Rick Majerus, Jim Calhoun, Pat Kennedy, Gary Williams, and Dick Tarrant
 are sniffin' at the door, too.   Hard to ignore Haskins at UTEP also.
 
 Up-and-comers ... Dave Odom, Jeff Jones, Danny Nee, Bob Huggins, Les
 Robinson, and Joby Wright. [Aside: Jones bashers should recall that he's
 won 20 each of his first 2 years ... not so for Dean and K.]
 
 Ho-hummers ... Cliff Ellis, Tommy Joe Eagles, Clem Haskins, Dr Tom Davis,
 Bill Foster (N'western) and Bill Foster (Va Tech).
 
 Coaches I can do without ... Jim Boeheim, John Thompson, John Chaney,
 Billy Tubbs, Paul Evans, and Eddie Sutton.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Hey guys, heres one we left out, and I think he's gonna make some waves
    in the near future.
    
    Jim Crews of Evansville.  Crews was a player and asst. under BK.  Doing
    a heck of a job for the Aces (won conference this year).  I don't think
    Crews is long for Evansville.
    
    Another to watch out for IMO is Leonard Hamilton of University of
    Miami.  Not sure how good of a tactician he is, but the man can flat
    out recruit!  Leonard was the chief recruiter under Joe Hall at UK
    before he accepted the head coaching job at Oklahoma State.  Perhaps
    Leonard can do for the basketball program what Schnellenberger did for
    the football program in the late 70's and early 80's.
    
    Rope

 I left off Crum because he seems to be ok when he's got a loaded tank but
 without the stars he has done much. He's also let off on the murderous schedule
 he used to play. I thought of him but couldn't see a way to fit him in.

 

    Good coaches :
    
    (No particular order)
    
    Coach K
    Knight
    Ayers
    P.J. Carlissmo
    Penders
    Raveling
    Xaiver's coach
    Williams
    Pittno
    
    2nd tier
    
    Deano
    FSU's coach - Made a big splash in ACC ...
    Richardson - too many headcases in the last 4 years.
    Louie C. - Be nice to see him get some real talent.
    Fisher - How he handles Fab 5 will speak volumes.
    Thompson - better offense would make him great - best D in country.
    Chaney - It's what he does, not how well he (doesn't) brownnose.
    Calprxxxxx - Umass' coach. Can he make another great run ?
    
    Overrated :
    
    Dale Brown - Gag me.
    Baywhine - Next !
    Dr. T. Davis
    Tubbs - should have won it all in 87.

Top Dogs

1. BK (no brainer)
2. K
3. Pitino
4. Massamino (maybe I've been brainwashed watching him repeatedly beat talented
              SU teams, not to mention G'town)
5. Snuffy (caint win the big one, but has made a million sweet 16's)

Lext Level
  
 R. Williams, PJ, Tubbs (jerk, but teams play D and are slightly more diciplined 
 than Vegas), Louie, L. Olson, Crum, Sutton (cheater, but winner everywhere) 

Up and comers

 R Ayres(sp ?), Gary Williams, Gillian (sp), Penders, UTEP's guy
 
You got to be kidden me

 Kennedy ( rarely have I seen less dicipline, unless I'm watching 'Cuse or Vegas
           or anybody in the SEC cept UK.  The guy beats an awful UNC team a few
           times, and people are puting him in their top 5 ? please)

 Terry Holland (talk about havin' the best big guy on the planet for 4 years and
                never wining the big one. Even Thompson and his abolute lack of 
                any ofensive schema won one.)

 John Thompon (JT in the offensive huddle, OK guys, we really need a hoop, so 
               one of you take an ill advised, off balenced, shot, and the rest 
               of you crash the boards, ok break! Only  he could pick a team 
               loaded with D and no shooters, and have us get our asses handed 
               to us by slow deliberate diciplined (read:boring) europeans. )

 Boehiem (BK would have won 4 titles in the 80's at SU. Of course the Pearl, DC,
          The Show (Billy Owens to you "non upstater's"), Stevie Thompson, and 
          Sherman Douglas would have transfered.)

� Up and comers
�   ... UTEP's guy
 
Don Haskins is older than dirt.  He was the coach at UTEP (then called Texas 
Western) when they shocked the world and broke Adolph Rupp's lily-white 
Kaintuck heart in the 1966 NCAA title game.

� You got to be kidden me ...
� Terry Holland (talk about havin' the best big guy on the planet for 4 years 
� and never wining the big one. Even Thompson and his abolute lack of any 
� ofensive schema won one.)

If the "best big guy on the planet for 4 years" has no heart and takes 
numerous powders in the big games, what's a coach to do ???   And Holland 
silenced all doubters with a massive overachievement in 1984, just one year 
after Ralph left for Houston.   And they o'cheeved pretty good in '89, too. 

Besides, Holland's on the sidelines now so why bother bashing him ???

Bob Hunt

.-1,

Bob,

 didn't no much about Haskins, thought he was kinda new.  I only bashed Holland
 cause you (or someone else) had him on your list.  Have to agree with you a
 on Sampson's heart (or lack there of).  Whats the deal with Kennedy ? Why 
 is everyone so high on him ? I'll admit FSU get limited exposure in Syracuse,
 but in the four games I watched this year, FSU beat a bad UNC team (Hubert 
 carry us will ya) twice, got blown out by SU in the Big East/ACC challenge, and
 got handled by IU, looking rather undiciplined and reckless in each outing.
 Am I missin' somthin' ?

Stan.

I had Terry Holland on my list (conditional on him getting back into active 
coaching).  I watched him win lotsa non-Ralph games he had no business 
winning ... especially 1984, my fave year.  Plus he delivered the 1980 NIT 
when it still (sorta) meant a little something (pre-64 NCAA's).

As for Kennedy, I guess we'll wait and see.  He won *SIX* ACC road games this 
year and that was a major shock to the conference.  Trust me, no one picked 
them to finish 2nd in the league behind Duke in their very first year in the 
league.   Their best asset was their unbelievable quickness and speed and 
perhaps that's what caught ACC teams by surprise and not Kennedy's coaching. 
If he continues to do well, you gotta give him credit.

Remember also that the 'Noles won the 1991 Metro Tournament which was a mild 
upset, I believe.

Bob Hunt

    Clem Haskins of the University of Minnesota is relatively new while Don
    Haskins of the University of Texas-El Paso has been there for over 25
    years.  They aren't related, either.
    
    John