Conference 7.286::sports_91

    I think they're only doing it for attention because its the World
    Series.  People have been doing this stuff for decades.
    
    Mike

      My protest is the chant the braves fans do.  It seems to just echo in
    my head.  Besides,  didn't they copy that chant from Florida State?
    
      Kill the Chant!!!
    
    	Tim

       Like Eddie Anvilhaid says. Even hockey teams cain take a joke. Look
    at the Canucks. I always thought that was a derogatory term too. Like
    Eddie says, it's like calling them the Vancouver 'Dumb Frenchmen'.
    Nobody in Canada seems to be all torqued about it. It'll blow over
    after the TeeVee lights go off.
                                 Denny

 Yes, the Braves did copy it from the Florida State Seminoles.
 
 "Neon" Deion Sanders is the connection here.   Sanders played football at
 Florida State and introduced the "Chop" to a couple of fans in late spring
 training.   It caught on following the All-Star break when the Braves got
 hot and caught up with the Dodgers.
 
 Still more "see how you like it" comparisons ... 
 
 There is a current commercial for a car sound system that has a car parked
 out in the middle of what looks to be "Indian country" somewhere and the
 sound system is playing a cassette tape of an Indian raindance.   And, of
 course, raindrops soon start falling on the car attesting to the sound
 system's high fidelity in "fooling" the Indian rain gods, I suppose.
 
 And there is a car actually called the "Sundance".   I forget who makes
 it.   But that, too, has been pointed out as an offensive use of a Native
 American religious symbol.
 
 Some institutions have already dealt with this issue.   Back in the
 1970's, Stanford University dropped the team nickname "Indians" in place
 of "Cardinal", the color.    
 
 And just lasted year, Eastern Michigan University dropped the nickname
 "Hurons".   Recall that there was some media publicity about EMU's
 decision to do this since they were in the NCAA Sweet Sixteen at the time.   
 Also, somebody correct if I'm wrong, but didn't Dartmouth drop "Indians",
 too ???  They're something like the "Green Wave" now, aren't they ???
 
 So, somebody at least has decided to stop offending Native Americans.  
 Should all teams now follow suit ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    I'm not at all upset about it and I don't plan to get upset about it. 
    As someone who is part Irish, as long as the Celtics and Notre Dame
    keep their logos, not only won't I get upset but I can't because it
    would be hypocritical for me to support banning Indian logos (Bob, you
    forgot the Chicago Blackhawks, which to me is the nicest uniform in all
    sports).  I'm more upset at the schools such as Dartmouth, Stanford and
    above all the University of Massachusetts which succumbed to political
    pressure and dropped the Indian as their mascot.  Before we became the
    Minutemen, we were the Redmen and a lot of neat songs, symbols and
    traditions went out the window with it.
    
    John
    
    PS - Funny story from this past Saturday's game - 5 UConn students
    (faces painted, bare chests spelling out UConn, the whole bit) were
    doing the Seminoles/Braves chant.  Little did they realize they were
    actually supporting the visitors by doing so)

    Yes, Dartmouth did drop the name Indians after people complained. They
    are now called "The Big Green". Growing up in the shadow of Dartmouth I
    seem to remember that Dartmouth was originally a school for Indians...

    REK

 They have a legit gripe but they're going about it the whole wrong way. 
 What they ought to do is trademark the names due to their heritage and
 then charge the teams using the name and then get a percentage of everything
 sold bearing the names, plus a royality on the name.

 Why I dare say those dirty ole skin flintin good boys (ie NFL) would change
 the names of the teams so fast it'd make your head spin...

  change the name to something more civic minded like say the Washington
  Sleeparounds.....

 mike

REK, you're right.  In fact, I don't know if it's still the case, but at
one point, if you could prove that you have enough Indian blood, you could
go there for free.

There's a little bit of Indian blood in my family on my father's side,
no doubt from one of our ancestors marrying an Indian...  (I haven't
seen the family tree in ages, so I don't have the facts in front of me).


My feeling here, as in all types of cases like this, runs something like
this:

	Is there a deragotory intent here.

I mean, do the Chicago Blackhawks really intend to demean Indians by
the use of their logo?  I doubt it.

And what is so utterly wrong with having been warriors?  Jeez, I'd have
to say that most of the Indian warriors had more honor than a lot of
the Cavalry troops.

And I agree with John.  It's a damn shame that years of tradition go out
the window when some wishy-washy people bow to political pressure and
change something like that.

I honestly cannot believe that any major league sports team intends to
demean any group.


Jeez, before you know it we'll all be a bunch of pansy-ass people who are
so afraid of offending anyone that we'll have sports names like:

		The Buffalo Waterfalls
		The Hartford Actuaries
		The New York Skyscrapers
		The Washington Politicos
		The Seattle Sounders  (fyi, their logo is based on Innuit art)
		The Denver Pine Trees...

I mean, this whole thing is stupid.  

Yes, the Indian problems should be addressed, no doubt, but gimme a 
break on this logo thing....


And before anybody says "how would you feel if their was a team,
the Hartford Honkies... it would not bother me in the least if they
had a winning record....

Sports is Sports, Politics is Politics.  I think it's a mortal sin to 
mix them.......


'Saw

    	If it weren't for "Dances with Wolves" most non-native Americans
    wouldn't give a damn about this protest.  Proving once again that
    it's better to get a Kevin Costner (or some other photogenic big
    name) to champion your cause than depending on folks being able
    to do the right thing on their own.
    
    				/Don

    
     Nice note /Don. Which of course when translated means I agree.
    
     I don't for a moment profess to know how deeply the Indians feel 
    about the 'tomahawk chop' or the 'Redskins' and neither does anyone
    else who isn't an Indian but I seriously doubt that they're only doing 
    it for the attention.
    
    The comparisons with the Celtics and the Fighting Irish don't apply 
    either because those names were chosen by people of Irish descent as 
    far as I know. And people of Irish descent would be the most vehement 
    protesters if those names were to change. Cannuck from what I under-
    stand is the equivalent of calling an American a 'Yankee'. Neither 
    the French Canadians or the Irish have been regularly depicted in the 
    movies and on television as bloodthirsty savages and I believe that's
    the problem the Indians have with the 'tomahawk chop', the war paint
    and everything else.
    
     After the way that Native Americans have been systematically screwed 
    in this country I think they're owed at least this one courtesy. 
      

    I think our "Native American" neighbors have every right to make the
    rest of us aware of these stereotypical characterizations of "Indians"
    It seems as if the protest was timed solely for the national limelight
    of the World Series. I never heard of any appreciable protest at
    any of the afore-mentioned pro teams or the history of the FSU Seminole
    chant. With that said, I believe strongly that the "Native Americans"
    have a right to educate society on the past history of their
    culture. I stress educate. Most semi-intelligent people are aware that
    the chop and chant are nothing more than exaggerated stereotypes and as
    long as the intent of the individual is not to offend, then I see
    nothing wrong in people continuing to do so. Understanding, of course,
    that you cannot read intent and is all subjective.  Using this forum
    to raise our awareness is perfectly fine. To take it one step further
    and attempt to ban it or legislate agin it ( how the hail you do that
    is beyond me ) will simply cause anatagonism. I fear that we are
    becoming "too politically correct" and sensitive. I would not want to
    live in a society where everyone spoke and acted in aenethesized
    trepidation. Common sense and respect for other cultures is so
    important in shaping our country's future, let's do it through
    education, not legislation.
    
    One small nit. Any group or culture has every right to call themselves
    by whatever label they choose. The collective peoples " Native
    American" are no more native to these continents (North and South)
    than Caucasian,African, or any other peoples. Perhaps, IMH(umble)O,
    the term "Original American" might be more apropos. No preachin',
    just opinion. Depends on how you interpret "native"
    
    MikeL
                                                       
    
     
    

    
    What's with this post-"Dances with Wolves" era business?  The protests
    and the calls for the removal of Indian nicknames goes way back.  Try 
    post-Wounded Knee, for starters.  The movie's impact pales in
    comparison...
    
    I wouldn't really see a problem with the use of American Indian 
    nicknames, logos, and mascots as long as they're used respectfully.  
    That's not the case in many instances, though, like with the names
    "Redskins", "Redmen", the Cleveland Indians' logo, etc.  Such terms
    and stereotypical caricatures are generally considered to be derogatory
    to American Indians, so I can see their point at least to that narrow
    extent.  Last night in Atlanta some of the Tomahawkers were taunting 
    the Indian protesters outside with their chops and chants upon
    entering the park (there's a picture in today's Globe vividly
    depicting such).  So much for non-offensive, no-harm-intended
    behavior.  That's totally uncalled for, and there is a line in there
    somewhere that shouldn't be crossed.
    
    glenn
    

Article 2452 of clari.sports.basketball:
From: [email protected] (JEFF SHAIN, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.misc,clari.sports.baseball,clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: American Indians should redirect energy
Date: 22 Oct 91 21:53:33 GMT
Priority: major

Commentary
	A message to American Indian protesters at the World Series: It's
been well over 100 years since your ancestors lost control of the
American continent. Get over it.
	The pickets set up outside the Metrodome and Atlanta-Fulton County
Stadium, protesting the ``tomahawk chop'' used by Atlanta Braves fans,
comes across as a silly way to gain a national outlet for their
complaints over the loss of their land during the western expansion of
the United States.
	How much longer are American Indians going to play the martyr? The
last ``Indian territory'' became the state of Oklahoma way back in 1907.
	There have been 16 presidents since then. During the interim, the U.
S. has been involved in two world wars, three other major military
conflicts and countless political scandals.
	We've seen both the rise and fall of Communism in the last 84 years.
Entire countries have been born and died during that time. Remember
North Yemen? Or South Vietnam? East Germany?
	Life goes on. It's time for the American Indian Movement and other
groups to stop complaining and focus their attention on how to become a
more productive segment of American society.
	The protesters say the tomahawk chop -- a downward motion of the arm,
similar to chopping wood -- and other antics by Braves fans such as the
beating of drums and chanting present a negative image of American
Indians.
	``It's not just the tomahawk chop, it's 7-year-old kids wearing war
paint and signs that say 'Braves massacre Pirates,''' longtime Indian
activist Bill Means said. ``It's the old John Wayne mentality that the
only good Indian is a dead Indian.''
	What? ``Braves massacre Pirates'' seems to suggest that fans would
prefer to see a dead swashbuckler than a dead Indian. And anybody that
thinks today's Indians still wear war paint and headdresses has either
been living in a cave or seen one too many showings of ``Dances With
Wolves.''
	Never mind that the tomahawk chop is a routine stolen from Florida
State football games and makes some yearn for the good old days of the
wave. It's simply good, clean fun by Braves fans who want to exhort
their team on. And not every Indian finds it offensive.
	``They're not speaking for the entire Indian community,'' said Rick
Jenson, a resident of St. Paul, Minn., with Sioux heritage. ``There are
many people of Indian heritage who go along with the symbolism used by
Atlanta.''
	Even Hall of Famer Johnny Bench, an Oklahoma native who is one-eighth
Indian, said he sees nothing negative associated with the tomahawk chop.
	Instead of protesting the tomahawk chop, perhaps the AIM should
devote more time to alcoholism counseling or working to improve the
quality of education on Indian reservations.
	Alcoholism has been a major problem on Indian reservations for a
number of years. In fact, it wasn't too long ago that a series on Indian
alcoholism won a Pulitzer Prize for an Albuquerque newspaper.
	But it seems the AIM would prefer to run around crying racism
whenever sports teams make reference to anything Indian.
	Indian groups recently complained about a poster showing Kansas City
Chiefs defensive linemen in war paint, chest plates and feathered
headdersses. What they neglect to realize is all proceeds from the
poster go to a tutoring program at the Heart of America Indian Center in
Kansas City, Mo., which also helped coordinate the photo and provided
the regalia.
	Members also have been handing out flyers asking people to write to
Baseball Commissioner Fay Vincent demanding the Braves and Cleveland
Indians change their names. Same with the NFL's Washington Redskins and
Kansas City Chiefs.
	``If you were to have any other religious group or any other cultural
group portrayed in a similar manner, this would not have continued,''
said Jo-Anne Stately of the Indian Affairs Council of Minnesota.
	She obviously hasn't seen the Boston Celtics play basketball or the
Vancouver Canucks play hockey.
	Anyway, the Cleveland Indians were named in honor of Louis F.
Sockalexis, a Penobscot Indian from Maine who was the first American
Indian to play in the major leagues.
	Sockalexis played three seasons for Cleveland just before the turn of
the century, hitting .338 in 1897. When a contest was held in 1914 to
rename the franchise, a fan suggested ``Indians'' as a tribute to
Sockalexis. What was an honor in 1914 has become racism today.
	What's next? Are the country's Irish descendents going to demand that
Notre Dame change its nickname from the Fighting Irish, saying they
don't want their people to be stereotyped as a bunch of pug-nosed
brawlers?
	Or is the NAACP going to ask the NFL to do the politically correct
thing and have the Cleveland Browns renamed the Cleveland African-
Americans?
	Ugh.
	If the American Indians want to become a vibrant part of current
American culture, they will have to move forward instead of continually
looking backward. Bury the hatchet, so to speak.
	``The people think we're a thing of the past,'' said Bill Pensoneau,
another Indian leader. ``Most people don't even know we're alive
anymore. We want to be known as a people of the future.''
	The best way to start would be to get over the past.

    I can proudly say that I've participated in the Seminole war cry.  A
    few years ago, I attended the Fiesta Bowl that placed FSU against
    Nebraska.
    
    That chant, when done properly, is *VERY* contagious.
    
    Mike

    The Native Americans' protests are not some world series stunt.  These
    protests have been going on for several years now.  The fact that
    Atlanta has chosen a chant that brings the protest under the microscope
    should not be confused with jumping into someone else's spotlight.
    
    I recall several years ago (perhaps as many as 10) seeing an article in
    Sports Illustrated about it.  They ran this poster that the Native
    American association was sending to all athletic orgs and colleges.  It
    depicted pennants for teams such as:
    
    	- Purdue Caucasions
    	- Washington Negroes
    	- USC Jews
    	- etc.
    
    I'm probably in the minority here, but I can understand very easily how
    a name such as the Washington Redskins can be offended and I think the
    team should change its name.  
    
    On the other hand, I can't understand how taking the name of a tribe
    (Hurons, Seminoles, Chippewas, etc.) is offensive.  If that's the case,
    we need to change about 35 names of states in this nation, countless
    rivers and lakes, hundreds of counties, thousands of cities, millions
    of street names, and so on.  It's the mascot and warlike emblems
    associated with these tribe names that is offensive.
    
    But I ask you this: how many average college football fans would even
    know of or be curious about who Chief Osceola was if not for FSU?
    
    And another thing, they interviewed two costumed Braves fans outside
    AFCS last night and the female of the two said this: "Imitiation is the
    highest form of flattery.  I researched my outfit and it is very
    authentic."  Painted on her cheeks along with warpaing was the words
    "Scalp Twins."  Yeah, real authentic.
    
    Did any of what I wrote mean anything to anyone?
    
    	--dan'l

       Those MIT Engineers are in big trouble!!
                                     Denny

Gee, I guess the New Zealand All Blacks might wanna stop doing
The Haka, since it could be considered offensive to the Maori tribesmen
who originated it......

'saw

    I think I heard this on WEEI...  some guy was saying that why do they
    get all bent out of shape when almost all you can buy at say the little
    shops around the Mohawk trail are tomahawks and bow & arrows?
    

    Please, this is an attention ploy... Like they siad the Cleveland
    Indians were named that in tribute to an Indian player !!! How can
    you relate that to a team called the Negroes.  The Article entered
    back is the only note that really made sense...This is an old issue
    and if they would spend time on the real issues and the real problems
    maybe they would get something done.
    
    This reminds me of something kind of funny, I dont know about other
    towns but my father works for the town of maynard and they had to
    replace all the sewer caps with the words MANHOLE on them with just
    sewer becuase it was sexist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Some group actually put
    pressure to have MANHOLES removed, now if the same people who are
    spending all there time working on ways to protest and getting funds
    to protest more and more would put that money to something more usefull
    maybe there wouldnt be alcohol problems on the reservations and maybe
    there schooling and housing would be much more improved.  
    
    Nhaaa that would make sense why would I want to spend my time improving
    the problem, then I would have nothing to protest....  Except MANHOLES
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    I think the difference between the Chicago Blackhawks and the
    Washington Redskins is clear. The Blackhawk were a tribe in the upper
    midwest, and the logo is, and always has been done in a dignified and
    tasteful manner. The idea was to honor the Blackhawk tribe. 
    
    The Redskins logo has never been anything like Cleveland's Chief Wahoo, 
    but the name is about as derogatory as you can get. The 'skins were 
    originally the Boston Braves, back when it wasn't unusual for football 
    teams to name themselves after the local baseball teams. Their logo was 
    an indian head on a maroon shirt. The football Braves had a dispute 
    with their baseball namesakes and moved to Fenway Park. They didn't 
    want to keep the name, but they already had the uniforms. A few years 
    later, they moved to Washington.   
    
    I think what a lot of the American Indians are bothered by is the trivial 
    use of what is to them, sacred ceremonial costumes. It would be as if
    people wer to don priests' robes and chant with rosary beads for
    something unrelated to their normal intended use. For these people,
    this has the same symbolism that the American flag has to other
    Americans - a symbol of a certain set of values and ideas, which is not
    to be taken lightly or misused.
    
    Tom  

    Re: .21
    
    I thought the Redskins were at one time the Boston Yankees. I also
    think the Cleveland Indians used to be the Cleveland Spiders.
    
    John

    
    
    	I've got some Cherokee in my blood and this doesn't upset me one
    bit...But then again, I could care less who wins the series anyway.
    
    	As far as the Chops and Chants go...let them do it...how often do
    you think the Braves will get to the W/S anyways?
    
    Chief B.A.

    The Tel Aviv Christians!

    First, Mike H. - I'd love to know the person who wrote the 'commentary'
    in note 14.  What a typical attitude.  "Hey, we screwed you over
    royally - still are - so stand up, act like a WASP (but don't come to
    our country clubs or live near us), and be quiet..."  is the message I
    read from it.
    
    American Indians have been protesting these names and stereotypes for
    many years - not just since the Braves surge to the top levels of
    sports consciousness.  
    
    The one team that really seems to tick them off is the Washington
    Redskins.  Jack Kent Cooke said that American Indians should be proud
    that the Redskins are using the name - and that the Redskins help keep
    the people of Washington together.  The American Indians see it as
    another form of the crap they've taken from Washington for years - from
    broken treaty after broken treaty, to deception, near genocide, and
    indifference.
    
    However, I don't think the Braves' fans mean any degradation to
    American Indians.  Doesn't make it right, but it isn't done in malice.
    Heck, I'll admit that the war cry is infectious - I'll take it and the
    chop over hanky waving and the wave any day.  
    
    As for the fighting Irish - well I don't know if any Irish groups are
    against that - but Irish groups have started to protest the way that
    Irish folks are depicted around St. Patrick's day.  Drunks.  Drunks,
    and more Drunks.  Not cool at all.  
    
    Living out here now, I see and hear more about American Indians than I
    ever did back east.  Lots of Indian reservations.  Have also heard my
    first real derogatory remarks about the Indians.  And seen some of the
    squalor some of the tribes live in.  Pretty sad.  
    
    I do think that at the least, those teams with nicknames that are
    considered derogatory to Indians - such as the Redskins and the Redman
    be changed.  
    
    JD

    I've just gotten a sun burn and happen to recently find Washington 
    Redskins a very upsetting name.
    
    How about a compromise, "Washington Red Necks"?
    
    Do you think my Alma mater (Eastern Kentucky Colonials) has the army
    guys all upset?  (Or maybe Chicken lovers, I get so mixed up...)
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

>    As for the fighting Irish - well I don't know if any Irish groups are
>    against that - but Irish groups have started to protest the way that
>    Irish folks are depicted around St. Patrick's day.  Drunks.  Drunks,
>    and more Drunks.  Not cool at all.  
    
JD, if you ever saw the way the New York Irish RFC play rugby, you'd
swear that all the stereotypes are true 8^) 8^) 8^)

'Saw

    re Air Brooks -
    
    Well you may think it silly - and see nothing wrong with it.  But
    calling American Indians 'redskins' or 'redmen' is like calling
    African-Americans derogatory terms (which I won't type in here).  
    
    And, I don't think there is much of an analogy with your manhole story
    - but I will admit that is a pretty stupid think - I mean, if folks get
    all upset, call them 'womenhole' for all I care.
    
    JD

    I don't think the name 'Braves' in itself should be considered
    demeaning.  Weren't Braves warriors?  Seems analagous to using names
    like "Minutemen", Colonials, Federals, etc...
    
    JD

    For those of you who think that it's OK for these teams to be named
    Redskins and such, let me throw this out to you. 
    
    Charlotte is in the running for an NFL team.  Say they get it and call
    the team the Charlotte Rebels and have a confederate flag as their
    emblem.  Is that OK?  Ain't hurting anyone, is it?  The south should be
    proud of its herritage, right?
    
    	--dan'l
    
    

The only one I find really objectionable is Redskins.  I mean, I could
see where that would be offensive.

As to the Cleveland Indians "logo", what makes that demeaning?  It's
a caricature.  Personally, I don't find caricatures demeaning.  I mean,
if someone did one of me, there's be this HUGE butt, and a head etc....


I can understand the plight of the Indian.  But I think there are a lot
more important things for them to protest than whether or not a sports
teams has what they feel are deragotory names.   Put the effort into
getting things like better housing, more educational breaks etc etc...

Next thing you know, the animal rights activists will be protesting
that there are teams like the Cougars, the Buffalos, the Broncos, the Bruins.
I mean, someone should protest, because Lord knows those animals can't
speak up for themselves.

       Sounds okay to me dan'l. It's not like the South is trying to hide
    the past, the Confederate flag is still everywhere anyway, 100 years
    later.
                                    Denny

      
    Gotta be careful when you use satire like that, dan'l.  You don't
    know who might take you seriously...
      
> I can understand the plight of the Indian.  But I think there are a lot
> more important things for them to protest than whether or not a sports
> teams has what they feel are deragotory names.   Put the effort into
> getting things like better housing, more educational breaks etc etc...
                                        
    These are exactly the same arguments you hear from libertarians
    on the issue of the treatment of the flag, which is the best 
    analogue to sacred Indian symbology that I've seen to date.  While 
    you will hear some claim that we shouldn't be spending a lot of
    time and energy on an issue like flag burning, you won't hear many
    people defending the practice or trivializing it as you do with
    these Indian symbols.  The difference?  As JD alluded to, simply
    who's calling the shots.
    
    glenn
      

    I haven't read anything except .0, so if I repeat something someone
    else has said in here, tough sh_t.
    
>> beliefs, and the ancestors' memories.    They say it also unfairly
>> promotes an undesirable racial stereotype that depicts them as savage,
>> non-white warriors.     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    If I had someone like the Cleveland Indians usnig my name, I'd be
    embarrassed.
    
>>> Or are they just
>> using the hot glare of the World Series to grab some politically expedient
>> air time ???
  
    IMHO, yes to the above.
    Too many people walk around today with a chip on their shoulder just
    waiting and hoping that someone will find a way to knock it off so's
    they can start something.
    
    
    JaKe
    

    Jake -
    
    One error is that this isn't a new protest - yep, it is getting more
    light because of the World Series.  In fact, one native american writer
    up here said it might be good - because it has gotten more publicity. 
    Up til now, it was rarely depicted as an issue except around areas that
    have large native american populations.   I think Glenn W. mentioned
    Wounded Knee - that was a while ago - and the protests have gone on
    even longer than that...
    
    JD
    
     PS:  Regarding Florida State - the school went to the Chief of the
    Seminoles and told them about wanting to have someone dressed in native
    garb, riding a horse, with a flaming spear.  The Seminole Chief
    basically blessed it - and Seminoles designed and produced the outfit.
    I think that's why you don't have complaints about the Seminole's name.
    
    Someone suggested changing the Redskins to the "Washington Politicians"
    and said the logo could be hands reaching into a till, and the mascot a
    big dollar bill.
    
    

    How's about the "Washington Fornicators"??  With the logo being Teddy
    Kennedy behind the wheel with a crazed look on his face!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    --dan'l
    
    Actually, I like it.  Put the team in grey and yellow.  Make the team
    song a variant on Dixie.
    
    
    General -
    
    My high school team was the Indians, too.  While I was there, we opened
    up a second high school in the same school district.  They were the 
    Cowboys.  That was kinda neat, I thought.
    
    Team names and logos are always a potential bone of contention with
    someone.  I can understand the Native American distress at the
    ridiculing of their traditions which is inherent in some of this.  I
    don't think that changing the team names is necessarily appropriate
    even most of the time.  (The obvious exception is the Redskins/Redmen,
    as already noted.)  But being reminded that the names and logos and
    chants and all the rest are rooted in the traditions of real people who
    hold those traditions in some degree of reverence isn't all bad,
    either.  And sometimes you need to feel some self-respect and
    self-worth before you can believe that you *can* work out your
    problems.
    
    Trying to find a moderate stand isn't easy, but it's often worthwhile.
    
    A&W

JD,

I'm surprised no one is up in arms about Seattle.  The Seahawks logo
is from Innuit art.

And what about the Thunderbirds.  The Thunderbird was an Indian diety,
right?


I guess before you know it we'll have a law about how you can name
a sports team....   I hope part of that law is that it has to be 
plural...None of this "Birmingham Flame"...  That's STUPID....


'Saw

My high school was the Tomahawks.

In midget football in town we had the Tomahawks (green and white) and
the Warriors....


I dunno, I don't see anything wrong with the Tomahawks.  I mean, it was
a formidable powerful weapon.  I don't see it any different than
The Sabres, or the Long Rifles...


'Saw

And how come all the Born-Agains aren't up in arms about:

	
		The New Jersey Devils
		The Duke Blue Devils

etc etc etc?

    Team logos are already trademarked by the league and/or team, I can't
    remember which.  To me the solution is simple - take a portion of the
    money earned on royalties by these "native American" teams and donate
    it to the cause if the protesters will shut up.
    
    John

>    take a portion of the
>    money earned on royalties by these "native American" teams and donate
>    it to the cause if the protesters will shut up.
    
    Because money doesn't buy pride, especially to a race such as the Human
    Beings (what most indians called themselves).  We bought them off
    before, then renegged.  I doubt they'd ever let anything like that
    happen again.
    
    	--dan'l
    

    Frank -
    
    A guy in the letters column of the USA Today raised many of the points
    you did - he said how come single kids aren't protesting Minnesota's
    favoritism towards Twins.  The animals-right groups protestings,
    Christians protesting the Saints and Padres, etc...
    
    However - it really isn't the same thang.  I mean those aren't
    derogatory names, are they?
    
    As for the Seattle thang - funny, but there are a few 'Indian' names
    out here - and a large Indian population.  One of the local High
    School's is Chief Sealth High School, named after the Indian Chief that
    Seattle is named after (I believe...)
    
    The Seahawks - don't know how they came aobut the logo - and maybe they
    used a local native american artist.  The Thunderbirds - I thought they
    were named after cheap wine ';-)
    
    JD

What would Seattle area people be up in arms against ? The fact that the 
SeaHawk logo was done Inuit Indian style ? No biggie..in fact the Inuit art
style is starting to get widespread recognition. I think it's neat artwork.

Metz who thinks the Yankees should be forced to change their name because it's
derogatory to New Englanders :-)

    
>    Team logos are already trademarked by the league and/or team, I can't
>    remember which.  To me the solution is simple - take a portion of the
>    money earned on royalties by these "native American" teams and donate
>    it to the cause if the protesters will shut up.
     
    Why is the natural assumption that all these people are after is
    money?  That completely misses the point.  That's *our* thinking.  
    Hey, I grew up in Oklahoma (where in spite of the sordid history of 
    the origins of the territory and the state, assimilation is actually 
    quite well along, at least as compared to what I've seen in other
    western states, like Arizona in particular), and believe me, nothing
    could be further from the truth.
    
    You guys act like American Indians are just another hands-out,
    me-first, political action committee descending on our government
    and our institutions looking for a free ride.  You're wrong.  For 
    the most part, they're sincere.
    
    glenn
    

    As far as a design goes, I don't think you can criticize the Seahawks
    for using an Inuit-based design. (What IS a Seahawk, anyway?) Although
    with any of this we run the risk of subjective tastes, but the Seahawks
    helmet isn't particularly tasteless or garish. It might look like
    something froma totem pole, which fits in with the region. 
    
    This isn't much different than ANY team incorporating something regional 
    in their logo/uniform. Examples: Twins - old logo was 2 identical guys 
    shaking hands over a river, with the outline of the state in the 
    background. Mets - skyscrapers & bridge logo, Nordiques - Fleur de lis. 
    Washington Bullets & Capitals - Red White & Blue uniforms with stars & 
    stripes. 
    
    The differences is these is that they are done in a positive light,
    taking pride in the area. The Cleveland Indians' logo is a mocking
    cartoon, like a "Little Black Sambo." I think the issue is getting
    blurred in the scope of "political correctedness." Naming a team
    after a group of peopel in the name of taking pride in them is OK by
    me. Do you think blue-collar types such as steel and oil workers have a
    gripe with the AFC Central? Only when they are viewed as sub-human
    savages (Redskins) is there a problem.
    
    Tom    

    
    >>me. Do you think blue-collar types such as steel and oil workers have a
    >>gripe with the AFC Central?
    
    
    The way the Steelers are playing right now, YES!!!!!
    
    JaKe
    

>    First, Mike H. - I'd love to know the person who wrote the 'commentary'
    
    JD, the UPI sports writers name is in the header.
    
    Mike

    Mike -
    
    Thanks - I must have missed it in the header...
    
    JD

>    Hey, I grew up in Oklahoma (where in spite of the sordid history of 
>    the origins of the territory and the state, assimilation is actually 
>    quite well along, at least as compared to what I've seen in other
>    western states, like Arizona in particular), and believe me, nothing
>    could be further from the truth.
    
    Well I've lived here for 11 years and don't see the problem Arizonans
    have in understanding American Indian culture.
    
    I'm going to file an official protest.  I find the names "Blue Devils",
    "Sun Devils", "Demons", and the like offensive.  Coming to a reporter
    near you...
    
    Mike

    
>    Well I've lived here for 11 years and don't see the problem Arizonans
>    have in understanding American Indian culture.
    
    I didn't say there was a problem in understanding; rather it was
    my perception from both visiting the reservation land (I got a coffee
    cup on my desk right now from Gray Mountain, AZ-- way out in the
    boonies) and from conversations with my hosts that the cultures there 
    are very separate.  That's not a value judgement, as it may just
    be the way that the Indian population wants it.  Again, just perception
    maybe, but in Oklahoma I had buddies in school and down the street who
    were American Indians, who would give presentations and demonstrations
    in school on their dances, customs, etc., but otherwise lived in
    every way like anyone else.  Probably a big reason for my interest in
    these issues comes from the time I spent there as a kid and the 
    first-hand education we got on stuff like the Trail of Tears (which 
    brought to Oklahoma most of the Seminoles and other tribes that the
    state of Florida now "pays tribute" to), although I have admittedly 
    forgotten most of it...
    
    glenn
    
    

    As I was walking into Game One and up to my executive box I saw
    the protesting Natives up here, which is fine.  But... they were
    out there beating drums and dancing.  If they can do it why cain't
    we?!
    
    MrT

Well I can understand how someone would find the term Redskins offensive.  
Just as the New England Palefaces doesn't sound right.  But I don't think you
can say that about all references to Indian names.   In fact some names bring
out in my opinion positive connotations. 

For example:  Braves, Chiefs, Warriors

Indians frequently used references to animals or nature in their own names. 
They had noble names for some, not so noble names for others.  As long as the
team's name is not derogatory I don't see a problem. 

Now I suppose someone can find something derogatory or offensive about just
about any name.   Warriors may imply too much violence for example.  

As an example of what I feel went beyond common sense - my hometown college
band had to change their name from the La Crosse Marching Chiefs to the La
Crosse Screaming Eagles.   If someone can tell me whats offensive about
Marching Chiefs please let me know.   Then again why don't they make my
hometown change its own name.  La Crosse being an Indian game, do we have the
right to take that without permission ???? 

Why don't we ask the Indian community for some suggestions or alternatives.
What name or names would represent them and remind all US citizens of the
goodness of their heritage.   Maybe some wouldn't want any reference at all.  
Who knows?

We gotta stop all the whining in this country.    

Pat

    First, I find it ironic that Dartmouth is a school that was founded to
    educate the Indians and then it was among the first school to give up
    its Indian logo.  I believe they used the logo to honor Indians, not
    deride them.  There is also a strong sub-culture among Dartmouth alumni
    that is totally against giving up the logo and it continues even to
    this day.
    
    Second, my comment about the money is probably insensitive but in
    reality, what else is going to happen?  There is probably nothing
    anyone can do to force the Redskins, for example, to change their logo. 
    The fans who go to the games probably don't care and there are enough
    people on the waiting list to gladly take over ownership of the season
    tickets should someone feel strongly enough to give them up.  Unless
    there's some incentive for a pro team to give up its logo for something
    new, it isn't going to happen.  
    
    Third, how far can a pro team go in regulating the behavior of its
    fans?  Are they really going to stop anyone in Indian regalia from
    coming into the stadium or arena?  Do you think Atlanta management
    really could stop the Tomahawk Chop, even if they wanted to?
    
    I agree that the use of Indians as logos is probably wrong and
    insensitive to a point but I don't realistically seeing any pro team
    changing and given that, what do we realistically expect will happen? 
    I sure don't know.
    
    John
    

         Just to throw my 2 cents in.....Personally I see nothing wrong
    with the Braves Logo, shirts, ect... The problem I see is the war
    chants , head dress, and tomahawking action. These things are sacred
    in their rituals. Some Indians it doesn't bother and others it does but
    either way it is demeaning to their culture and believed in religion.

         I can not say what the Braves fans were doing before all of this
    tomahawk and chanting business as I do not follow them regulary but
    when I did watch them the last several years I didn't see any of that
    going on before. If the Braves fans had stuck to routing for their team
    without the use of Indian chants, head dresses, tomahawks, ect.... I do
    not think the uproar from some of the Indian community would have been 
    very vocal if at all.

         We have sh*t on these people for a long time and it is time we let
    them have a little respect. Our forefathers took them for everything
    they had and gave them some measly reservations to live on. We even go
    so far as to give them jobs making head dresses for our amusement. And
    of course they do it as it is income for them that they need and they
    don't have a whole lot of other ways to earn anything (except maybe 
    making pottery and having Bingo facilities). 

         At this point it is almost too late to stop the Braves fans as
    they are enjoying themselves. It's either change the name or try and
    confiscate tomahawks and head dresses at the gate but, you still can't
    stop them from chanting if they want to. Maybe someday people will give
    the Indian some respect. One can only hope!

                                                   Night Flier    ~~v~~

    John's point about money is well taken.
    
    Last night, on one of the network news shows, there was a report on
    this controversy.  One group of Native Americans were NOT upset at all
    by the goings-on in Atlanta.  They were Native Americans who derived a
    income from making and selling tomahawks, which were sold to non-Native
    Americans (geez, I was born here, aren't I a Native American?).  War
    bonnets, too.  So, one's perspective *CAN* be skewed by the thoughts of
    filthy lucre.
    
    I agree with those who find certain terms derogatory, such as Redmen,
    Redskins, etc.  I also agree with those who find other terms as either
    non-derogatory or even complimentary, such as Blackhawks, Chiefs (or
    should it be Chieves?).
    
    JD, I find the term "womenhole" to be offensive.  Now what?  :*)
    
    lEe

I was thinking about this last night.

When I think of the Washington Redskins, what do I think of?  Do 
I think of Indians?  No.

You know what I think of?  I think of HOGS.  I think of all these
people dressed up with Hog noses.


I wonder what people would do in this country if everyone magically
had nothing to whine about.


I can understand the plight of the Indian.  I'm sympathetic in some ways
to that plight, but I've never been one to condone whining about something
that won't amount to a hill of beans.  There are many, many problems they
could address.  If they were out protesting lack of educational opportunities,
then I could say "Sure, go for it, where do I send some $$$ (because there
aren't that many places to volunteer for them around here)"

Look at the tribe in Ct who got the casino passed and it's being built
on their land.  Those folks did the one thing the rest of us whities
couldn't -- beat out Governor Bozo Weicker....8^)


'Saw

    --JD-- I didnt say it was OK TO CALL INDIANS redsking or Redmen.
    These are sports team names, nobody is going around calling them
    names.  I see nothing wrong with RedSkins or redmen.  Again I truley
    feel that if these protestors were really intrested in making life
    better for there people they would spend there time improving their
    situation.  Oh well....This is just another example of how we in this
    country overlook our own, If you dont think there are Irish/Italian/
    Black/Hispanic/etc people with alcoholism/Money problem your blind.
    And what we did to the Indians is nothing in comparison to what we
    did to the african americans.  Face it you Pale Face Honkies we have
    been screwing the minority for a long time and its imposible to make
    up for it now.  This can be siad for what the Germans did to the Jews
    (++) and more recently what the Iraqians did to the Kuwaitees.  We
    do not live in a perfect world..... Id say protesting to get a sports
    team to change its logo, stop its chants or change its name is very
    shallow in comparison to what they could be doing.  Its also pretty
    funny that these are the issues talked about in sports....Oh well
    
    On to Sports...Them Nasty Braves have tied it up at 2 apiece

    	Frank, I don't think anything "passed" to get the casino on
    the reservation.  It's my understanding that according to the treaties
    signed with the U.S. government they can pretty much do what they
    want on that land (they withold no taxes from winning bingo players)
    and the State of Conn took legal action to stop the casino from being 
    built.  The State knew they would get no revenue from the casino and
    that money otherwise spent on the state's legal gambling could be
    spent there.  So they tried to stop it by legal action and lost.
    That was my understanding of what happened, but I could be wrong.
    
    				/Don

>             <<< Note 208.59 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "Smith > Knight" >>>
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You're wrong here.



�    	Frank, I don't think anything "passed" to get the casino on
�    the reservation.  It's my understanding that according to the treaties
�    signed with the U.S. government they can pretty much do what they
�    want on that land (they withold no taxes from winning bingo players)
�    and the State of Conn took legal action to stop the casino from being 
�    built.  The State knew they would get no revenue from the casino and
�    that money otherwise spent on the state's legal gambling could be
�    spent there.  So they tried to stop it by legal action and lost.
�    That was my understanding of what happened, but I could be wrong.
    
You're right here.  I just meant that they had won, and that they
"beat" Bozo Weicker....

btw, I can't wait to GO there.  We'll have to have big get together
after it opens....

'Saw

>         I can not say what the Braves fans were doing before all of this
>    tomahawk and chanting business
    
    There were none.  All the people you see in the stands now were then
    out in their BMW's and Volvo's calling the Brie Delivery Boy on their
    car phones.  The fans in the stands before were mostly transplanted
    folks from other MLB cities rooting for the visiting team.
    
>         At this point it is almost too late to stop the Braves fans as
>    they are enjoying themselves. It's either change the name 
    
    Don't put anything past Ted Turner.  
    
    	--dan'l

    re .58
    
    At the risk of getting into a discussion over which group got screwed
    the most, I would have to disagree with your assessment of African
    Americans having it worse. You're right, both groups suffered grave
    injustices, but I don't think much can compare with a president like
    Teddy Roosevelt, who, as one of the points of his campaign in 1904 was
    to wipe out the entire Indian population. Sadly, he nearly succeeded.
    How is he much different than Adolph Hitler? (To be fair to Roosevelt,
    he DID do a few good things like regulate child labor laws and force
    sanitary inspections of food processing plants, etc.) The irony of it
    all is that his face adorns Mount Rushmore in South Dakota, right next 
    to Lincoln.
    
    People in the US criticise S. African whites for the mistreatment of
    "native" people, but if they had done anything close to what European
    settlers did here, they wold have "taken over" the whole continent,
    which is basically waht was done here. Not to say I support anything
    to do with the Apartheid system there, but just to offer a perspective.
      
    Genocide is genocide, whether it is in Central Europe, Armenia, Africa,
    Kampuchea or North America.
    
    Tom

    
     I really can't beleive that this kind of carp goes on in a country
    that already has a many problems as this one does today.  Don't people
    have anything better to do than whine about the name of a sports team
    or what that teams fans chant or do to pull for the home team.  Don't
    get me wrong....  I think the native americans have and still are
    beeing screwed by the system but to protest about this kind of junk
    only tears down the credibility in my eyes...  Lets work the real 
    issues and not the BS...
    
    Big Game  (Should I change my moniker because it may be offensive to 
    	       Clay Wade who happens to be an avid "Big Game" Hunter where
    	       I am not ???  Where do you draw the $%^&*$%^& line)
    
    P.s  Chances of any of these teams changing there names or the actions
         of their fan is slim to none and slim left with the ticket $$$ in
         his hand already)

    
    Protest movements are by definition opportunistic and political.
    It's fallacy to think that there are no other important or even
    related issues behind the front-line debate over demeaning 
    stereotypes.  The proof of the pudding is that most of us have no 
    idea what the issues are or how, where, or even if they're being 
    discussed.  If it weren't for something like the headline-grabbing 
    protests over the World Series, no one would think twice about 
    American Indian issues nor would anyone give a damn.  Don't kid 
    yourselves otherwise...
    
    glenn
    
               

    Actually, most of the comments in this note directly reflect the
    problems that the American Indians faces today - a large percentage of
    folks have dismissed it as whining.  This issue is not about simply
    changing the g*dd*man name of some sports teams, its about racial
    stereotyping and insensitivity.
    
    No single ethnic group in America's history has been mistreated,
    discriminated or endured more hardships than the American Indian.  They
    had everything from 'germ warfare' (Smallpox-infested blankets to wipe
    out the population, poisoned meat, etc...) to outright massacre (in
    cold blood) to forced relocation (see Trail of Tears and many other
    historical facts).   
    
    And while other ethnic groups have problems wiht alchohol, etc, as Mr.
    Brooks pointed out, the fact is that teh American Indian has the
    highest incident of suicide, alchohol abuse, and the highest
    unemployment rates.  
    
    If, by the publicity, the American Indian gets even one more WASP to
    have a little better understanding of their plight, then its worth it
    to them.
    
    And finally, Mr. Brooks - yeah, the Redskins is a traditional name. 
    Suppose when the Cincinnati Red Legs were founded way, way back in the
    1860's, they had been named the Cincinnati Blackskins or worse.  And
    they kept the name.  Would  there be any outcry to change the name? 
    Would folks just be whiners??   Suppose they had a Amos 'n ANdy type
    logo face - or an AL Jolson face - or another black stereotype as their
    logo.  WOuld that be okay?  I mean, look at the tradition they'd have!
    
    
    JD

     Good point DEVLIN_JO.....  Never thought about it that way.
    Sometime the red-neck comes out in me before I think.
    
    Big Game

    There have been istances of a name change based on public relations 
    pressure. During the 1950s the Cinncinati Reds were known as the Red
    Legs (not to be confused with the Red Sox or Red Stockings, which they 
    were originally known). It didn't seem to matter that the team had been
    playing ball about 50 years before anyone had heard of Marx and Lenin. 
    This was the McCarthy era, so there would be NO QUESTION that the good
    'Mrcans on the banks of the Ohio wouldn't support a team called the
    "Reds." I don't think the name change was official, but most printed 
    material (baseball cards, programs, etc.) refer to them this way. Looking 
    back, it's pretty spineless of management to kowtow to pressure, but then
    again it's hard for us todat to accurately judge what the prevailing 
    attitudes were in that part of the country 35 years ago.
    
    Tom   

�    Third, how far can a pro team go in regulating the behavior of its
�    fans?  Are they really going to stop anyone in Indian regalia from
�    coming into the stadium or arena?  
    
    Fenway Park is certainly more restrictive about inflatable objects
    these days.

    
    
    I may admit to being a Tewksbury Redmen and an avid Redskin fan but
    for the many years that I have been watching/attending/following
    all sports, I have never seen the "chop" before. The chant is something
    that any movie watcher knows means there are indians in the area. Maybe
    the indians are hostile, maybe they won't but it is like the power of 
    conditioning from advertisers everywhere. If you watch Bugs Bunny or
    the Three Stooges or any show where the producers have indians in for
    any reason war or peace related you always have the drum beat in the
    background and the first indian that shows up on screen is sending a
    smoke signal or saying "How". These do not seem to be that derogitory
    to me. The chop is a motion that further conditions the indian 
    assimilation when the beat or chant is heard. It is allready the latest
    craze and will spread like an Oakland wildfire throughout the country
    right down through colleges, highschools and grammar school sports. I
    would wager that the cheerleaders from any school with a Native-
    American mascot are practicing now choreographing the "chop" into 
    their routines. I think it may be annoying at best for being to 
    redundantly repetitive (intentional) but there is no racial intent
    or malice directed at our native countrymen, unless there are some
    drunken rowdies who are just bigots no matter how you slice 'em 
    hooting and hollering about the publicity this non-issue is getting.
    The uniforms of the Braves have always? had a tomohawk on them and
    there was never this much todo about that. But it is prime time free
    advertising for the native-Americans who should make the best out of
    this attention and solve some of there more critical problems.
    
    I think the San Jose Sharks are a dirty hockey team with the best
    logo in the league,I like sharks though, but you won't see the 
    Greenpeace people or any activists saying much about this vicious
    logo. It has a shark biting a hockey stick in two on it. I like it,
    not them, Bruins are my team.
    
    ML
    

                                                                     

   > I think the San Jose Sharks are a dirty hockey team with the best    
   > logo in the league,I like sharks though, but you won't see the 
   > Greenpeace people or any activists saying much about this vicious
   > logo. It has a shark biting a hockey stick in two on it. I like it,
   > not them, Bruins are my team.
    
   > ML

      Now hold on just a gosh darn minute!  The Sharks are a dirty hockey
    team?! Boy, just jump right on a new franchise team that has been
    playing together maybe 10 to 11 games in it's entire history. Cut them
    a little slack will ya! Sorry the Bruins have been playing hockey soooo
    long that they may be a little bit more polished than the Sharks. I
    sure would have liked to see the Bruins first year! I would go so far as 
    to guess that was the first and only game you have ever seen them play.
    If they are so dirty they sure aren't doing a good job of it as they
    have only one win in their inaugural season.

       As for associating Sharks with tomahawks vs Greenpeace and the
    Braves this almost does not make any sense. The Tomahawk is not the
    big issue here. It is the degrading of a people and their spiritual
    beliefs by using sacred head dresses and chants. I guess in our terms,
    "religion". As I am not an Indian I can not associate how important
    that may be to their society. But we have to try and understand and
    respect other people and their beliefs. If a baseball team in your
    town were to use a symbol of the Israel faith and your were a Israel 
    Rabbi wouldn't you feel that they were degrading your faith to bring 
    it down to the level of a Baseball shirt! I grant you I am using a
    almost unlikely scenario but maybe to allot of Indians this is what it
    is like to them! Besides that, I haven't heard of any sharks having
    religious beliefs.....but then again maybe they say a little prayer
    before thrashing their prey!
    

                                                   Night Flier    ~~v~~

    Ummm - Nightflier....
    
    I believe -2 was done in a predominantly light-hearted tone, particularly 
    the portions about the Sharks.
    
    Basically saying that the whole issue isn't worth the torque currently
    being applied  :-)
    
    A&W  

    i love the colors of the joisey of the sharks..
    
    

    Respecting ones believes should only go so far...Example what if
    they wanted to do human sacrafices...And only Pale Faces would
    qualify
    
    	Many :-)'s
    
    This topie will die after sunday oooppsss I mean saturday night :-)
    
    								M-a-B

�    Respecting ones believes should only go so far...Example what if
�    they wanted to do human sacrafices...And only Pale Faces would
�    qualify
    
    Smilies or not, this is exactly the kind of stuff the protestors are so
    mad about.  It's the stereotyping and disinformation.  I can't think of
    any North American tribe who participated in human sacrifice.  This one
    ranks right up there with the old Westerns where the Indians would
    attack anything in sight, of course after coming up and saying "How"
    and beating the drums and sending up smoke signals.

>    Smilies or not, this is exactly the kind of stuff the protestors are so
>    mad about.  It's the stereotyping and disinformation.  I can't think of
>    any North American tribe who participated in human sacrifice.  This one
>    ranks right up there with the old Westerns where the Indians would
>    attack anything in sight, of course after coming up and saying "How"
>    and beating the drums and sending up smoke signals.


Agreed, Big Mac.  I cannot say with certainty, so please don't quote
me, but human sacrifice was more in the domain of South American
tribes.

The North American Indian, for the most part (and that's a big most) lived
in harmony with the land, had a vast and intricate culture, and opened
the white man with open arms.

The white man, for the most part, screwed the **** outta the Indians.


Indians fought to protect what was theirs, and their way of life, no
different than you or I.

I'd better stop before I get on a roll......

    When I say THEY I did not SAY AMERICAN INDIANS I was talking of any
    group protesting anything for freedom of religion.  There has to be
    a line....
    
    Example Again.... A group I believe in california...Has a church, or
    so they call were for $50 you can become a member and any time you want
    to become cleansed of all your sins you pay another $50 and you make 
    luv to one of there High Princesses (sp) and you are cleansed...:-)
    
    I guess you think we should give them everything west of the
    Mississippi...Thats fine with me NO MORE LA LAKERS :-)
    								MaB

Dinz, 

Did field service FIX your keyboard, or just SWAP IT OUT?

If they SWAPPED it, you don't happen to know who got it, do you?????



Hawk,

See you tomorrow 8^)

    RE: -71

           Some of it was some of it wasn't but I was just joking around
    about the Shark bit also. As for the Indian bit I was more serious but
    not to the point of a coronary. 

                                                   Night Flier    ~~v~~

                                                   

       Shore got quiet in here once the big TeeVee eye went out eh?
                                        Denny

    You got that right Denny.... We won't hear of any more protest
    about teams names now..
    
    REK

    
>                                    -< Told ya so >-
>
>       Shore got quiet in here once the big TeeVee eye went out eh?
 
    Who ever disagreed that this would be the case?  What does it prove,
    other than that Indians, in general, have absolutely zero voice
    or representation in mainstream society?  Are we supposed to be
    shocked by the revelation that TV as a source of information controls 
    our lives in a major way?
    
    glenn
    

�    You got that right Denny.... We won't hear of any more protest
�    about teams names now..
    
    Which doesn't mean it won't be going on.  Those of you who travel the
    Mass Turnpike might not have noticed that the MTA logo has been
    changed.  There is no longer an arrow going through the Pilgrim's hat. 
    Many schools have changed their mascots.  It just doesn't get the
    national press that 50,000 people in attendance of a WS game get.

    Mac, where were all the protesters before the WS? AND where are they
    now?
    
    REK
    
    The portesters got their 15 minues of fame and now have gone back to
    where they came from.... I consider their protest more just to get
    attention than the Braves name....

    The Indians were protestig LONG, LONG before this World Series and will
    continue.  Those who don't give a damn about the issue will file it
    away and forget about it.
    
    They achieved, if only for a little while, a heightened recognition of
    their protests.
    
    JD

�    Mac, where were all the protesters before the WS? AND where are they
�    now?
    
    Just because they are no longer being interviewed on CBS and ESPN
    doesn't mean they have gone away.

    
    Mac and JD, yes the protesters have gone away fron the national public
    eye. The national media does not seem to think that this is a story
    they wish to follow and work on...
    
    Denny's right, the big is gone and so is its protesters
    
    REK

gee, they took away the arrow?

That sucks.

What's to say that it wasn't a miss from an errant bowhunter?????


'Saw

    No doubt there exists a calculated political hypocrisy in what 
    Clyde and his AIM buddies are doing to get media time.  But so
    what?  We're regularly bombarded with similar crap from many other
    groups, which has left us with political disasters such as affirmative
    action, a million trumped up sex harrassment scams each year, Israel,
    unconstitutional non-safety blood testing for drugs, unconsitutional
    restrictions of free political speech on campuses and in certain
    cities, and the odd overthrow of our tricameral form of government 
    by the military-security crowd (October Surprise, Iran-Contra, 
    Cointelpro, etc.)
    
    What harm cain the Indians wreak?  Let 'em at it.
    
    It's odd that the big-time college athletic program most closely
    associated with natives is the UND hockey team, the Fighting Sioux.
    Their logo is a profile of a warrior, a good looking chap with the
    aquiline nose and strong bearing.  Never a peep from the natives 
    about the Fighting Sioux mascot.  But, then again, it's their team
    and many of the students in there throwing frozen gophers (U of M)
    and frozen badgers (UW) on the ice are either Sioux or Chippewa...
    
    Historians, anthropologists, and archeologists now estimate that the 
    "empty" North American continent at the time of Columbus' landing
    held about 30 million people.  Most of them were butchered en masse
    (as with the Armenians, Ibos, Jews, and several other peoples down
    through the ages), or forced out into the winter fields to die of 
    exposure and hunger (like the two so-called potato famines in Ireland,
    where millions died as families, slowly, in one another's arms praying
    to God that the Queen and her infamous hatchetman would show some 
    Christian mercy).
    
    Minneapolis has the nation's largest urban native population.  When
    the Redskins show up to play the Super Bowl, look for Clyde and Co.
    to do a even better job of capturing sound bites...
    
    MrT

    The Mass Turnpike Authority logo was a true picture of irony.  The US
    has a national holiday based on a feast held back in Plymouth when the
    Indians bailed out the colonists and the state chose to proudly display
    a Pilgrim hat pierced with an arrow on a highly used roadway that
    pierces the heart of the Commonwealth.

 For what it's worth, I read in a recent edition of the "St. Paul
 Pioneer Press" that an Indian representative from Minnesota had
 indeed filed a lawsuit in US District Court in Atlanta against the
 Atlanta Braves.
 
 The suit seeks to have the Braves change their team nickname.
 
 So, yes, the high-profile protests have stopped but the "underground"
 efforts continue.
 
 Bob Hunt

                                   
    > Historians, anthropologists, and archeologists now estimate that the 
    > "empty" North American continent at the time of Columbus' landing
    > held about 30 million people.
      
    Wow, that many?  They used to teach us 7-8 million in school.  There
    are 2 million American Indians in this country now, and that's
    including non-full-blooded persons who have placed themselves in the 
    American Indian category in our census.
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn,
    I too was taught 7-10 million at that time. I don't dispute T's
    numbers as I've read estimates ranging from 15-35 million inhabitants.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    Between Florida State and the 'Skins...  (In my best Terminator voice)
    Injuns say:  I'LL BE BACK...
    
    Go Bears!  I dun wanna hears nomores Injuns con-trived-versey!
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    I read that estimate in a magzine article (forget which) a few weeks
    back regarding the furor surrounding next year's Columbus
    Quincentenniel.  The estimates now range from 15 - 75 million, the
    later number disregarded by the academicians as political puffery.
    
    What's happened is thascientific advances in the archeology field
    have drastically improved capabilities in understanding and sizing
    nomadic peoples, who are characteristically quite difficult to 
    define because of the absence of permanent structures such as
    buildings, diketc. and artifact deposited in concentrated area.
    single area.
    
    Based on new scientific data using thestechniques, the estimate
    has balooned from a few million to, according to most creble
    scientists, about 30 million.
    
    MrT
     

    Re: .93
    
    And that suit will probably be thrown out of court at some level for
    being either completely frivolous or completely without merit.  If I'm
    working for the Braves, I'm probably not losing any sleep over it.
    
    Sports Illustrated is taking the Redskins (specifically, Jack Kent
    Cooke) to task for not changing.  They said it's a chance for the
    Redskins to not only do the right thing but make a lot of money besides,
    given the sales of items bearing the old logo and then sales of all the
    items bearing the new logo.
    
    The University of North Dakota hockey uniforms, for those who have
    never seen them, are exactly the same as those of the Chicago
    Blackhawks with two exceptions - the base color is green and there is
    an "S" on the sleeve with the tomahawks going through it instead of the
    "C".
    
    John

    What Im curious is now many meetings were held to
    	
    	1.) Decide what the new signs (no arrow, no hat ??) would look like
    
    	2.) Decide who they would contract out to replace the signs and
    	    how much to pay them.
    
    	3.) Decide who to pay to design the new signs
    
    	4.) Decide who to pay to create the new signs (Mass produce)
    
    How much of our tax $$$ went to something this petty...This has turned
    into MANHOLES VS SEWER !!!!!!!!!  I hope no heritage or group has
    anything against to the HIGHWAY signs being green...Well have to spend
    mondy to change all the signs to another color...Hope there's no Alien
    Nations out there :-)
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

     
Hawk,

Changing the signs over a petty issue should be the concern. 

Afterall, frivolous spending in the PRM has never been a 
concern...

Daryll_who's_Polish_but_won't_sue_over_being_called_a_Pollack

    If the Boston Celtics had a logo of an Leprauchan carrying around a
    pint of whiskey and a dazed look on his face instead, we wouldn't hear
    the Irish community being called petty should they get the Celts to
    change their slanderous logo.

I've yet to meet an Irishman that looks like the Celtics logo. 
Politically Correct Irishmen should find this caricature 
slanderous shouldn't they?

�I've yet to meet an Irishman that looks like the Celtics logo. 
    
    Of course you haven't.  I doubt you'd be working for DEC if you did,
    cause if you had seen one you'd probably have a pot of gold for your
    trouble.

Just wondering, would an all-Indian team calling themselves, the 
"Braves" be acceptable?

daryll

    I don't think the problem was over the use of the name Braves.  It was
    over the misuse of Indian regalia.  There is a problem with the name
    Redskins, however, just as if the Boston Celtics were to be called the
    Boston Micks or somesuch.  Darryl, you might not be offended by the
    term pollack, but wouldn't you be offended by the common belief that
    all those of polish decent are stupid vodka swilling louts (Polish
    jokes certainly aren't in vogue anymore are they)?  This is where the
    Indians are coming from.  They are tired of being portrayed as blood
    thirsty savages with the IQ of a buffalo.

Mac,

I can understand that. But look at the Braves logo. Is it 
deregatory?

Look at the Indians logo. Now I can understand how that could be seen as 
derogatory.

It's already been mentioned in here that other teams like the 
Seminoles are publically supported by the Seminole tribe in FLA. 
What's the difference?

This type of "sensitivity" is getting out of hand in this 
country.

I'm Catholic and protest the San Diego baseball team being called 
the Padres. Have you seen their logo? Oh, and I protest the 
Angels too. Oh and the Saints also..

Why aren't the Canucks being protested? Isn't Canuck a considered 
a derogatory term by some? Is it ok since they're calling 
themselves Canucks?

The Danish should be protesting the Vikings.

The University of Missouri just came out with a Polically Correct 
dictionary of word that shouldn't be used because they can be 
construed as "derogatory".

Watermelon
Fried chicken
warpath
pronto
chief

among others are on it. It really is getting ridiculous.

daryll

    From the Novemeber 1, 1991 Philadelphia Daily News
    
    **without permission**
    
    Native American protesters trying to get the Washington Redskins to
    change their name said that they will hold a protest outside RFK
    Stadium before Sunday's game with the Houston Oilers.
    
    Vernon Bellecourt, a spokesman for the American Indian Movement, said
    that Indian leaders are particularly incensed that team owner Jack Kent
    Cooke has hired a woman Bellecourt described as "an Indian wannabe" to
    sing the national anthem. The singer, who goes by the name of Princess
    Pale Moon, describes herself as a Cherokee-Ojibwa Indian, but Bellecurt
    said "she's really a caucasian masquerading as an Indian."
    
    
    Boy... it sounds like Jack wasn't reading the newspapers during the
    World Series.
    
    Dennis
    

       I heard she got married and went to collij (jist like Hawk.) I saw
    her a 'couple' of times at the I myself. Didn't hear she was on the
    comeback trail though.
                                        Denny

�< Note 208.114 by SASE::SZABO "Where's your sister Lucille?" >
�                 -< Senn her at The Naked Eye back in '79... >-

�    Speaking of Native Americans, I heard on the ride home on friday that
�    Princess Cheyenne(sp?) was performing that evening at the Foxy Lady. 
�    It was supposedly a big thing seeing how she's been out of circulation
�    lately.  Anybody go?  /Don?  Chap?  Denny?
    
�    Hawk.
    

	 I haven't seen the Princess since her Naked Eye days, probably
been about 10 years now.  I did catch her radio call-in show on 'BCN a few
times though, again that was awhile ago.

	Speaking of the Foxy Lady, our nexted scheduled rendezvous is 
scheduled for Dec. 8, after the Pats - Colts game (won't that be a thriller),
maybe we could make it a SPORTSters gathering.

Chap

    re .88
    
    REK - the protest moved to RFK.  I guess some folks still practice "Out
    of sight, out of mind."
    
    But, then again, that's how our President governs, so it isn't
    surprising.
    
    JD

	It is disgraceful that the Native American's even have to protest at
RFK.  The name should be changed, no ifs, and or buts about it.  It is an
insult that should have been changed years ago. 

	Of course they're just being PC or overly sensitive....yea right.  
Hell they've even been refered to as 'injuns' in here.  They should be
happy that we have portrayed them as warriors, blood thirsty scaplen injuns.
Certainly makes the genocide of their people easier to justify.

mc

While I agree that the Redskins name is offensive. I fail to see 
how the Atlanta baseball club naming their team the "Braves" 
portrays Indians to be blood thirsty savages. 

For cryin out loud, when I was out west many Indians referred to themselves as 
Indians. Now, anything but "Native American" is considered derogatory.

Guess I better call them and tell them they're slurring 
themselves.

daryll

For the record, I believe that the way the American Indian is 
treated and has been since settlers set foot on this continent is 
a national disgrace. I'm fully aware of the deeds that the 
founders of this country inflicted on innocent men, women and 
children. I know all too well of the small pox infected blankets 
given out to freezing families in the dead of winter. I've been 
to Wounded Knee. Changes have to be made.

Demanding that the Braves change their name isn't going to do it.

daryll

�While I agree that the Redskins name is offensive. I fail to see 
�how the Atlanta baseball club naming their team the "Braves" 
�portrays Indians to be blood thirsty savages. 
    
    They weren't protesting the name!!!!!!!!!  They were protesting fans
    dressing up in Indian attire, sing a "war chant", and waving tomahawks
    around.

    This was taken from the San Jose Mercury News from the (AP) out of
    Washington on 11-4-91. (It was done so without permission)

         A dozen American Indians protested outside RFK stadium before the
    Houston Oilers - Redskins game as a part of their campaign to get
    Washington to change it's nickname.
         The group, which included members of the American Indian Movement
    and the Congress of American Indians, banged on drums, recited Indian
    chants, and carried signs that read "The Team Has a Racist Nickname"
    and "if I'm a Redskins, Jack Kent Cooke is a Honkie."
         Cooke the Redskins owner and other team officials maintain that the
    term of "Redskin" speaks to the proud, loyal heritage of American
    Indians. But the Indian groups maintain the term is derogatory and
    racist.
         "They don't understand our culture", said Daniel Love, a Cherokee
    who lives in Greenbelt Md. "We're a very spiritual people, and we take
    the nickname and all the antics as an insult."

                                                  

                                                   Night Flier   ~~v~~

�While I agree that the Redskins name is offensive. I fail to see 
�how the Atlanta baseball club naming their team the "Braves" 
�portrays Indians to be blood thirsty savages. 
  

	Maybe the name alone doesn't but 60,000 people doing the WAR chant and
waving tomohawks does.  And why do Braves have a tomohawk as a symbol and 
not a peace pipe, teepee, or some other 'peaceful' symbol??  

mc

    If the aim of the boycotts and protests are to change the team names
    they might have some luck (and I personally don't think any of these
    teams should be forced to change their names due to these protests, nor
    do I feel court action by the Native American groups would have any
    merit).
    
    Even if the team names are changed, there is no way to stop the
    chanting.  Team security may be able to stop fans from being admitted
    while wearing war paint, while carrying tomahawks and drums or wearing
    headdresses but there isn't any way to stop the chanting.  In fact, I
    predict there will be more chanting as a result of these actions, not
    less, as a backlash, and even among teams (pro or college) with names
    that have nothing to do with Native Americans.
    
    John

> And why do Braves have a tomohawk as a symbol and 
>not a peace pipe, teepee, or some other 'peaceful' symbol??  


This one is easy.  Sports, no matter how you cut it, is driven by the same
emotions and energies that war is.  It's the stop-gap in a lot of ways
that prevent the annihilation of the human race.

There is nothing wrong with a people being proud of their heritage as
warriors.  While war is nothing pretty, it is a reality and a fact.
As long as men have an id, an ego, and a superego, there will be war.

And as long as there is war, there will be people who are good at 
fighting it.


If Sports, as a microcosm of the human society, has a war faction, why
would a team that seeks to psychologically strike fear in the heart
of its opponents, choose to put a peace pipe on their shirts?


Whoa, I've got to stop these philosophical discussions....


'Saw

>    Even if the team names are changed, there is no way to stop the
>    chanting.  Team security may be able to stop fans from being admitted
>    while wearing war paint, while carrying tomahawks and drums or wearing
>    headdresses but there isn't any way to stop the chanting.  In fact, I
>    predict there will be more chanting as a result of these actions, not
>    less, as a backlash, and even among teams (pro or college) with names
>    that have nothing to do with Native Americans.

Is chanting solely the domain of the Native American?

I mean, suppose I wanna sit there and chant?  If I'm not sitting in the
stands in war paint and a headress, am I being deragotory to the
Indians?


'Saw

    mac -
    
    The Braves symbol could never be a peace pipe:
    
    First, the anti-smoking crowd would demand it be banned, because it
    would be seen as a symbol to kids that smoking is okay.
    
    Second, some religious group would protest claiming the peace pipe
    represented some sort of pagan ritual.
    
    Third, war mongers would claim it was a symbol of pinko-commie peace
    hippies trying to undermine our fine society..
    
    JD

	But the tobacco companies would get a collective woody,
	and buy the Braves from Ted Turner.

	Then, all the Braves baseball cards would feature players
	smoking, doing dip, or chewing longcut.

	The Braves would lobby heavily that lung cancer is caused
	by going to baseball games in domes, not smoking.


Oh yeah, I can see it now.....

�    mac -
    
    It wasn't me
    
�    Second, some religious group would protest claiming the peace pipe
�    represented some sort of pagan ritual.
    
    It's not a pagan ritual, it's an American Indian ritual.

    Mac 0
    
    I meant Mike C.
    
    According to many missionaries, the American Indian - since they were
    'natives' (or better yet, savages) were pagans because they had their
    own religious beliefs.
    
    In British Columbia, for example, the tribes celebrated "Potlutch",
    which was the equivelent of their Christmas.  Celebrating this most
    holy of their holiday's was OUTLAWED and they were thrown in jail for
    celebrating it.   They could celebrate the white man's Christian
    holiday's - or none at all. 
    
    JD

    
>    In British Columbia, for example, the tribes celebrated "Potlutch",
>    which was the equivelent of their Christmas.  Celebrating this most
>    holy of their holiday's was OUTLAWED and they were thrown in jail for
>    celebrating it.   They could celebrate the white man's Christian
>    holiday's - or none at all. 

Sounds a lot like what the Christians suffered under Communist rule
in Russia.

A taste of their own medicine perhaps?  (Next on Geraldo)

    Okay, I know that a lot of the experts in here claimed that this issue
    would die as soon as the World Series was over, and some asserted that
    Native Americans were just looking for cheap publicity - but the
    following is taken from the USA TOday:
    
    Meeting Open Today in Atlanta on Team Name:
    
    Negotiations between Native Americans and the President of the Atlanta
    Braves begin today in Atlanta.  A meeting with other Indian leaders and
    Commissionar Fay "I ain't Wray" Vincent is planned.   
    
    The meeting is the first attempt by sports officials to broach the
    subject.  "We all have to take people like Ted Turner and the
    commissioner at their word, until they prove otherwise,"  said Don
    Messec of the National Congress of American Indians.
    
    Stan Kastan, Braves President, said, "I can promise that on an issue
    like this, no one will have a problem dealing with me.  We've spoken
    some and we will in the future.  I'd rather leave it at that.  In the
    media is the wrong place to achieve anything."
    
    The low-key approach is a madate by the Braves.  "This first meeting is
    probably going to lay the groundwork, see what are feelings are," AIM
    director Cllyde Bellecourt said.  "But the name has to go.  There's no
    way the behavior of fans will cease unless the name is changed."
    
    Discussion and protests do not stop with the Braves.
    
    Indian leaders look toward the Washington Redskins as the next target,
    as they have asked the Justice Department's Community Relations Service
    to help set up a meeting with Redskins' owner Jack Kent Cooke.  To
    date, no meetin.
    
    "'Redskin' is one of the most detestable names," said Lakota Times Time
    Giago (publisher ofthe largest Native American newspaper in America).
    "I do not expect anybody to sit up and say, 'We're wrong.'  It just
    doesn't happen that way.  It takes time for the message to eventually
    sink in.  But it's going to happen a lot sooner than later."
    
    Taken from USA Today (not in its enterity), without Persmission.
    
    JD