Conference 7.286::sports_91

    I will go ahead and enter the first reply to this topic too.  I
    have seen on T.V. the so-called long and short list of players that
    will most likely be asked to participate on the Olympic team.  I
    have one problem with the list, and that is:  CLYDE DREXLER IS NOT
    ON THE LIST!  I think that if he is not asked to play, it will be
    a travesty!  The Tournament of the America's will be held in Portland
    next year and there will be a lot of unhappy people if Clyde doesn't
    make the team!
    
    Glen.

    Does anyone have a copy of the Olympic "charter"?  Is the overall goal
    of the Olympics to have the best athletes of the world compete or the
    best amatuer athletes of the world compete?

    
    I was under the impression that it was for the best amateur athletes in
    the country.  But where the U.S is one of the only countries in the
    world that doesn't have a 'state' supported Olympic program, my guess
    is that the Olypic committee is looking for increased competiveness.
    
    "Competiveness".  Is that a word?
    
    C-meister

    
    Make everyone else go back to the strict interpretation of "amateur",
    as well as us (my preference, of course, not the direction things are
    actually going...)
    
    glenn
     

    I don't think the Olympiocs ever cared about the amatuer thing.  I
    believe it's been the USOC that's decided.

    That should be "competivosity."  Unless you are in marketing, that is,
    in which you use the word "competitivize."
    
    HTH
    
    	--dan'l

    The thing that annoys me the most about this supposed "amateur"
    high-mindedness of the IOC and other Olympic bodies is that they
    increasingly fail to recognize the modern world. In 1896 when they
    first came up with the idea of the modern olympics, society was still
    geared toward the Victorian romanticism of the "Gentleman Sportsman" who,
    naturally, was independently wealthy. The ban on "professionals" was
    mainly a class bias aimed at keeping the poor stiffs who actually had
    to work out of these kind of competitions. 
    
    Naturally, this was long before anyone had heard of Marx & Lenin, and 
    they could have never forseen how some countries would later have their 
    best athletes living a priveleged life, but being theoretically "amateur."
    Do you really think Vladisav Tretiak (USSR goalie in 70s) made the same
    money that the average Army Colonel made?
                   
    What's the fuss? Why shouldn't each country be allowed to put its BEST 
    players out there, regardless of whether they are college, pro or
    anything in between. Arguments like "Player X should be on the team
    instaed of Player Y" will ALWAYS happen, regardless of where the
    players are drawn from. Let the coaches decide that.
    
    Especially in basketball, the rest of the world has caught up to the
    Yanks, so until there is an equivalent of soccer's World Cup, the
    Olympics is the de facto basketball championship of the world, and the
    US should treat it that way.
    
    Tom 
    
    

    Tom -
    Good points - also, one of the amateur rules was that an amateur was no
    longer an amateur if he/she competed with, or against professionals in
    a sport - any sport - or at a sporting event where an admission charge
    was in effect.
    
    Taken literally, the Russian hockey players were professionals simply
    because they took the ice against NHL teams...
    
    The USOC enforced this rule with an iron fist - thanks to the biggest
    blight on US sports in history - Avery Brundage.  Why do you think
    people like Renaldo Nehemiah were first banned from competing in
    amateur track and field simply because they signed a pro-football
    contract?  Its why Jim Thorpe was striped of his medals for accepting
    payment in a semi-pro baseball game - even though there was no Olympic
    sport called baseball then.
    
    The Olympics has not been a competition of amateur athletes.  Many of
    us in the US have been brainwashed into thinking our pros are the only
    pros in the world - we have a 'let the kids play' type attitude.  
    
    I agree with Glenn - if amateur meant the same thing for every athlete
    from every country, I'd be all for banning professionals.  
    
    Yeah, with pro-NBA players, the US should be able to easily win the
    Gold medal.  They will play other teams that have pros - such as the
    Yugoslavs, but no one will have our depth.  There is NO SHAME in having
    the deepest talent pool in certain sports.  No country can match the
    USA's talent pool in sprinting, swimming, and hoops.  However, the USA
    and most other countries cannot match the Soviets talent pool of
    gymnasts, biathaletes, cross country skiers, hammer throwers, and women
    shop put and discus athletes.   The Finns draw from a deep talent pool
    in ski jumping and javelin throwing.  The Kenyans have the deepest
    talent pool in distance runners and especially, steeplechase in the
    world.  
    
    None of those countries are bashful about making sure their best are at
    the games.  We shouldn't either.  
    
    
    JD

    	Nice to see there's one constant whether our basketball team
    has "amateurs" or "professionals" and that is, it's all politics and
    b.s. when it comes time to picking the team. 
    
    				/Don

    I recently stated my $.02 about professionals competing in the
    Olympics.  Either allow it in every sport, or keep it strictly amateur
    across the board.  It strikes me as unfair that pros are allowed in
    basketball, but not in other sports such as baseball. (Then again, can
    you imagine an already strong Cuban nine if Jose Canseco and Rafael
    Palmeiro were allowed to represent their native land?).
         
    
    py

                 
    > (Then again, can
    > you imagine an already strong Cuban nine if Jose Canseco and Rafael
    > Palmeiro were allowed to represent their native land?).
      
    Dunno 'bout Palmeiro, but Jose's as much a red-blooded 'Merican citizen 
    as any one a us.  Left Cuba when he was a month old or something.  Knows
    more about Madonna than either Havana or Castro...
    
    Seriously, though, even if the pros were allowed to play, the US would
    be no clear-cut favorite in baseball.  It's my opinion that we've 
    already ceded the rights to any claim to true excellence in the
    development of baseball talent to the Dominicans, considering their 
    continued improvement in *all* aspects of baseball (not just at the 
    middle infield positions as popularly assumed) and their tiny population.
    What has happened to baseball in this country is a crying shame; it 
    really is.  Undernourished kids without any formal training or
    equipment at the younger ages, from a small half-island country in the 
    Caribbean, are growing up and wiping up the diamond with our kids, even 
    our kids from California and Florida who have the opportunity to receive 
    year-round instruction in the finer points of the game.  Who woulda ever 
    thunk it, even twenty years ago?
    
    glenn
                                                            

    Pros are allowed to compete in tennis, track & field, and soccer.  To
    me the question isn't why are they letting pros play basketball, but
    rather why aren't they allowing pros in baseball (and other sports).
    
    The age of the pure amatuer are long gone.  Professionalism is even
    creeping into my favorite sport, rugby.  It's there to some extent
    (some say to a huge extent) in college athletics.  I say let's get it
    above board and out in the open.  
    
    It is expensive to compete at the international level in any sport. 
    The amount of lost work time alone can discourage athletes from
    competing at higher and higher levels.  In some way the amatuer status
    does put a type of caste system in place.  I seriously doubt DEC would
    allow me enough vacation time to do what it would take to compete for
    the US on the Rugby World Cup squad if I were good enough to do so. 
    Many of the Eagles are self employed for this very reason, or doing
    extended school work.

    re .12, I stand corrected.  (Maybe Fidel could lure El Tiante out of
    retirement instead? :-))
    
    
    py  

    Mac -
    
    Good points.  I doubt DEC would give you time off to compete for the
    Eagles.  Tim Lewis, who works out of CXO, is the US race-walking
    champion (for many years) and has gone to a couple of Olympics. I don't
    think DEC gives him time off.  Another person I know made the 88 trials
    in track and field. He had to use vacation time and get back to work as
    soon as they were over.
    
    JD

    re -1
    
    But like I said - other countries use pros, why shouldn't we?  And even
    though we've thought our athletes were 'true amateurs', in the major
    sports they really weren't.  Bill Rodgers, a pure amateur, was
    estimated to have made ~200,000 running marathons - all money under the
    table - while retaining amateur status.  Same was true of many our
    other 'amateur' athletes.  In the US, many of us have a matyr syndrome
    - our kids vs. their grizzled veterans.  
    
    The only real problem I have with 'pros' playing in the Olympics is
    that the 'pros' probably won't represent us in other World
    Champeenships.  
    
    Even when we've started to get our butts whipped in hoops, the
    underlying grumbling has been 'so what, they just beat some of our kids
    - if the NBA players - our best - played em, we'd whip them."
    
    Since the Olympics are events that cause many phoney patriots to swell
    with pride, why not have 'America's best' compete....
    
    JD

>    will most likely be asked to participate on the Olympic team.  I
>    have one problem with the list, and that is:  CLYDE DREXLER IS NOT
>    ON THE LIST!  I think that if he is not asked to play, it will be
    
    that's because they want players that know how to play team ball.

 Personally I hope that our NBA players get their butts whipped. Unless of
 course Larry decides to play in which case it'll be go USA...

 ;^)

 Seriously though count me as one of those who took pride in the fact that our
 kids could whip other countries pros. Had Hershey Hawkins not got hurt and
 Robinson and Manning showed up we probably wouldn't even be discussing this.
 
 And for the Mr T's of the world had we had a real coach with an offensive 
 game plan we'd have won the last time out.

 I really think Hawkins should be invited. We need a bomber he fits the bill..

 mike

    > Had Hershey Hawkins not got hurt and Robinson and Manning showed up 
    > we probably wouldn't even be discussing this.
 
    If by this you mean "John Thompson blew it big-time.", I agree 1000%.
    If we bring back Gold in 1988 we're not even having this discussion,
    which points out the hypocrisy of those who would argue we're using
    pros for any other reason than cause we don't like getting spanked
    in "our" sport.
    
    Here's an easy trivia question though, that carries a wholelotta irony
    relative to this notes conference:
    
    "Who are the only two (2) coaches to bring home Olympic Gold in the
     last 20 years for the USA?"
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re .21
    
    Let's understand that our 1980 hockey team, although not professionals
    in the NHL scheme of things, were about as amateur as UNLV's basketball
    team - perhaps even more so.
    
    Certain colleges recruit strictly for athletic skills. Don't let the
    Boston University deceive you. O'Callahan and Eruzione, although nice
    guys, were not Rhodes scholars. Jackie Parker recruited them for their
    hockey skills. Both attended BU but, to my knowledge, up until last
    year, niether had received a diploma from BU.
    
    The Olympic hockey team played for over a year together prior to the
    Olympics. They didn't attend  classes during that time. Their room and
    board was paid for. So was their equipment, rink rental fees, etc.
    
    These guys were hockey players first and foremost, let's no lose sight
    of that. Attending classes was a way to justify their spot on the
    university's roster prior to being selected for the Olympic team.
    
    Does that make these guys amateurs? Pros? 
    
    Sure I was proud when we won the gold that year. But that team was no
    different from the Finns, Swedes or Russians. The only difference was
    age and years of experience.
    
    Rich
    

    RE not being thrilled if NBA players beat up on Yugoslavia, hate to
    disappont you, but they WONT beat Yugoslavia by 50 points... The rest
    of the world is catching up to the US in Basketball VERY fast. Look at
    how many foreign players there are in the NBA and in major colleges.
    Also, look at how many Americans play in foreign leagues. Both of these
    factors increase the level of play in those countries.
    
    As for this Amateur vs Pro thing, do any of you people REALLY think
    college players are amateurs? If you do, you might be interested in a
    piece of land I'll let you have REEEEL cheep...
    
    Not to keep bringing up soccer analogies, but that seems to be the only
    sport that is big-time at the pro and international level.(In 20 years,
    basketball could be like this too, but that's another story.) Players
    for the Soviet soccer team CSKA Moscow (the Army team) are amateurs in 
    the strict (East bloc) sense of the word. They might get their army
    salaries based on rank, but lots of other perks too, like cars,
    apartments, resort homes, etc. They play in the Soviet League, and since 
    they won the country's cup, this year will be playing against other 
    European teams, pro, (Italian powerhouses like AS Roma, who can/will
    sign any player they want) semi-pro (leagues in Finland, Ireland, etc.
    are not full-time pro leagues) and "amateur" (Bulgaria, etc.) in the
    European Cup Winners' Cup. 
    
    NO ONE CARES where these players come from (other than rules limiting 
    the number of foreingers), how much they are paid ($50 a week to �3 
    million a year) or how the club got them (development of trade/transfer
    from other clubs). The ONLY thing that matters is what happens on the
    field. BTW, it's not unusual for clubs from weak leagues like IFK
    Malmo (Sweden) to knock out powerful clubs like Internazionale Milano
    (with 9 World Cup Internationals - 3 Germans, 6 Italians), which
    happened last year. 
    
    As for the national sides in any sport, they pick the best available 
    players, period. Why is Eric Lindros skating for Canada in the Canada 
    Cup, even though he hasn't played a minute in the NHL? Because he's 
    better than the NHL players he had to compete with to win the job. 
    
    There is a difference between allowing NBA players and being onlu NBA
    players. If Alford is good enough to win a spot, good for him. The
    biggest dangers are 1) overconfidence - just having to show up to win,
    which clearly is no longer the case, and 2) not adjusting to the
    different rules/style of play for the international game. It seems that
    a good 3-point shooter is a MUST. Hopefuly, whoever is running the team
    will be wise enough to HAVE a system AND know what kind of players fit
    best in that system. This ain't an NBA All-Star game...
    
    Tom
       

    re .21
    
    It wasn't too long ago that our college players were beating the
    Yugoslavians and others by 40 or 50 points.  Thanks to US coaching
    clinics and other factors, the rest of the world has caught up and can
    now regularly beat our college players - which represent the 2nd level
    or hoop talent in the US.  Sure the pros *might* beat teams by huge
    margins - but just like before, the world will catch up - and it will
    make hoops *BETTER* world-wide - just like before.
    
    As for the Steve ALford analogy - oh BOO HOO.  If the NBA represents
    the BEST in hoops players this country has to offer - then why should a
    guy, that you admit, wasn't good enough to make it in the NBA have the
    *RIGHT* to compete in the Olympics for the USA.  Hey, I've known lots
    of track athletes who would have *LOVED* to make the US team - but they
    weren't GOOD enough.
    
    In other sports, we send our best - we don't send guys we like, etc. 
    IN fact, hoops players and other team sports players have it relatively
    easy when it comes to making the team.  No way in the world Steve
    Alford deserved to be on that team - NO WAY at all.  But his college
    coach was the coach of the Olympic team, so he beat out guys who were
    betterthan him due to favortism.  Most athletes are NOT afforded taht
    luxury when trying to make the US Olympic team.
    
    As for 'marathoning' and track & field not being a major sport - you
    are right in one sense - no TV contracts, not much national coverage in
    the papers.  However, in terms of participation - track and field is
    one of the largest participation sports in America.   
    
    What they should do is hold true open tryouts for the Olympics in Hoops
    - like they do in other sports.  
    
    The Olympics should be a venue to see the BEST in the WORLD in all
    sports.  
    
    RE ACC Chris -
    
    Actually Chris, the talk of allowing professionals to compete in the
    Olympics - in all sports, started WAY before the 1988 games - and it
    involved the entire Olympic movemment - which is not just the USA -
    although it sometimes seems that way, given the bucks we shell out for
    it.
    
    The 'amateur' rules in the Olympics - for all sports, are out of date -
    as Tom Hill pointed out before.  
    
    We would never think of sending to the Olympics runners, archers,
    soccer players, volleyball players, bicyclists, fencers, gymnasts,
    bobsledders, or swimmers that were ranked between #100 and #300 on
    the depth chart.  So why should we in Hoops?  Just because we are the
    best in the world?  
    
    JD

    
    
    >>  ...a few fries short of a happy meal....
    
    
    Hahahahahahahaha!  I haff to laugh!
    
    
    Cath
    

    
    re .24 - Completely agree.  Why should we send second best?
    
    Yes there will be an imbalance, but certain countries seem to excell in
    some sports anyway.
    
    Kenyans are famous for long distance running
    East Germany - swimming
    Japan - gymnastics
    
    We excell a basketball, why be ashamed of it and send second best -
    just to be good sports.    The Olymipics are an opportunity for each
    country to display its best athletes in a given sport period.
    
    Pat
    

    re .25
    
    >>Sure there are foreign players in the NBA but the best
    >>of them are average or barely above average NBA players 
    
    I'd bet the Chicago Bulls would get a kick out of this. Seems Vlade
    Divac put a heck of a scare into them..
    
    >>and sure there are Americans playing in foreign leagues but the vast 
    >>majority couldn't cut it in the NBA which is why they're playing in foreign
    >>leagues.
   
    Well, lets see. Brian Shaw, Danny Ferry played in Italy. Reggie Lewis
    was on the verge of going there. Seems to me that the "vast" majority
    of US players who play in Europe are not a bunch of side show
    attractions.
    
    To be honest, I would give the Yugos, Ruskies and maybe the Brazilians
    a shot at regularly beating the Clippers, Nets and Kings. I'll bet that
    they could do very well in certain NBA divisions, also.
    
    
    And, JD - AT last, my friend.....we are in absolute, full, total,
    absolute agreement on a subject. 
    
    Rich
    

    Hey, I wish someone like Steve Alford had been on the last Olympic
    team-- we could have used *someone* who could shoot the damn ball.
    
    It's a presumption that *everyone* wants to see the absolute best
    athletes in the world in every sport.  I'd just as soon see a fresh
    bunch of athletes every four years in every event-- and as close to
    dedicated amateurs as is humanly possible, instead of highly-paid 
    guys I get to see every night of the year anyway, if I pay my cable 
    bill.  The Olympics don't mean the same thing to everybody, obviously...
    
    glenn
    

    
     re. last
    
     Vlade wasn't scaring anyone. In case you missed it, he and his Lakers
    got smoked and he was regularly outplayed by the not so legendary Bill
    Cartwright. If that's the best they have to offer why don't we save
    everyone some time and expense and award the US the gold medal now. As
    far as Americans playing overseas you named one decent player, Brian Shaw,
    however there are dozens more who went overseas because they couldn't make
    it here. And for the pas few years in a tournament which I believe has
    been sponsored by McDonalds aa NBA team competes against the national
    teams of a few different countries and the NBA team has yet to lose. The
    rest of the world is catching up but they still hav a long way to go.
    
     This whole lets play our best spiel would have a lot more credibility
    as far as I'm concerned if all the hue and cry had started in earnest
    before we'd lost not after.

    re .30
    
    I've felt for years - like since I was old enough to understand the
    difference between amateur and professional - that we should send our
    best.
    
    I agree with your on one thing - right now, the rest of the world is
    not up to par with NBA teams.  There are, however, some damn good teams
    out there in the rest of the world (remember, the world is not our 50
    states and some scattered colonies, er, possessions...)
    
    Shaw, Ferry (who, BTW was what, the #1 or #2 pick in the NBA draft?,
    Bob MacAdoo, Olden Polynice,...) have all played in the Italian League.
    Yep - they ain't the best we have to offer.  But, they ain't chopped
    meat.  Vlade Divac easily outplayed Cartwright, IMO.  
    
    The Yugos would probably, IMO, make the playoffs if they were an NBA
    team.
    
    And, its a typically American arrogance to assume that the world won't
    catch up to our 'best' in hoops - over time.  LIke I said, in the 50's
    we genearlyy whipped teams with ease.  Even Div. III college teams were
    beating the best of the rest of the world.  No more.
    
    The US used to be the world's best in many other sports and events -
    and had the attitude of 'they'll never catch up' - in some of those
    events and sorts - the US is a second or third rate power now.
    
    I have no doubt that if the US wanted to become a world power in sports
    like, oh, biathhalon (winter olympics) - that given time, resources and
    support - we would.  And I have no doubt that other countries can catch
    our best at sports like Hoops over time.  
    
    A perfect example would be soccer.  The US has never been very
    competitive in soccer, compared to the rest of the world.  Slowly, the
    US is becoming more competitive.  Why?  Well more soccer youth leagues. 
    Some more interest.  Better coaching, etc....
    
    The US uses foreign coaches to help better our soccer program.  Thisis
    exactly what countries like Yugoslavia has down with their hoops
    program.   And I can forsee a day, sometime in the future, when the US
    may be a real world power in soccer - and even vie for the World Cup.
    Many in Europe, or Brazil, or other soccer powerhouses would scoff at
    such remarks - just as many of us scoff a the thought of others beating
    our best in hoops.  
    
    JD

 By this time nexted summer, the United Stats will have had *20* full
 years to deal with the "problem" of international basketball
 competition.

 Immediately after the horrendous rip-off loss to the Russians in
 Munich 1972, a giant wake-up call should have gone off in the minds
 of every American basketball fan.    

 The worst thing that could possibly have happened did happen ... We
 had legitimate reason to blame the referees and thus ignored the
 obvious fact that someone else, in this case the Russians, had caught
 up to us.   Think about it ... suppose the refs did not engineer the
 Russian win and the game ended in our favor.   It still would have
 been a nail-biting 1-point squeaker that should have *still* served
 as a wake-up call.

 But we sulked about the refs for 4 years and did nothing about it.  
 And, yes, we took the gold in Montreal in 1976 but don't forget that
 we beat the Puerto Ricans by only one slim point in the early rounds. 
 That should have been the next wake-up call.   You know, the one that
 comes ten minutes later after you punch your snooze button.

 1980 and 1984 were a wash.  Forget about 'em because the playing
 field was incomplete with all the political hoo-hah going on.   But
 we were still asleep.   The 1984 home-court romps in LA were
 enjoyable but they didn't reflect the reality of improvements in
 international hoops.

 Now, we have no excuses left ...  No top spot in *any* international
 competition since the Worlds in 1986.    Lost the Pan-Am's in 1987
 and 1991, the Olympics in 1988, Goodwill Games in 1990.  Lost the
 Worlds in there again somewhere.   So, now we've heard enough alarm
 clocks and we're wide awake and sending Michael, Magic, Charles,
 Karl, and Patrick out to so battle.

 Two ways of looking at this ...   

 One is to say "It's about time we woke up and smelled the coffee
 burning!   Might as well sprint out in front again.  C'mon, Air, dunk
 it!"   

 The other is to say "Okay, we need a systematic, all-encompassing,
 well-funded, long-range plan to regain the lead.  We need youth
 programs, we need a national team with national coaches, maybe even
 we need a global NBA with teams from around the world.   Maybe then
 we can *earn* some medals and stay on top for a while."

 Bob Hunt
 

    Or - Bob - we can look at the rest of the world and say, "They sure
    have improved." Why should we assume it's because we have let the ball
    drop, so to speak? 
    
    To a certain extent, perhaps we are to blame in that we still take our
    superiority for granted. But the talent of our international teams is
    better than it was in Munich.
    
    Let's just say that the Yugos, Italians, Russians and Brazilians have
    improved.
    
    It's like JD's analagy, which I liked. It's not that soccer in Europe
    or South America is going down the tubes. The fact is that our soccer
    player are getting better.
    
    Rich
    

    Bob -
    
    Very, very good note.  Munich saw the end of 2 US dominations - the
    first loss ever in Hoops, and the first loss ever in pole vaulting.
    Now, I'm not equating hoops with vaulting - but there are some
    coincedences.
    
    Bob Seagram was the best vaulter in the world - the odds on shoo-in
    candidate to win the gold.  He was also using a new type pole.  At the
    Games, it was decided that the poles he used were 'illegal' - so he
    used some old poles.  He lost the gold, settling for silver.  As
    withthe hoops team, the US T&F association spent a good deal of the
    time whining about how Seagram was 'ripped off'.  IN the next couple of
    years, US vaulters started to get beat at a few meets.  In 76 - the US
    did not win gold.  As you say, 80 adn 84 are a wash.  In 88, US
    vaulters weren't part of the worlds elite anymore.  In less than 20
    years, the US went from the world's deepest, most dominant pole
    vaulting force to a complete also-ran.  
    
    And its happened before.  The US was once a dominent bobsledding
    country.  Bobsledding hit ground zero and is just now starting to try
    to make a comeback.
    
    Right now, the only event the US is truely dominant in is the long
    jump.  for the last ~55 years, only one non-american has held the world
    record.  Heck, you can include the 100m dash in there too.
    
    And for the most part, the US has brought it upon themselves.  The
    national sports bodies have forever bickered - with the lowest times
    coming with the AAU and Avery Brudage.  The USOC was full of cronies
    and old men who held onto the 19th century ideals of amateur athletes.
    
    Perhaps the super wake-up call would happen if our pros DID get beat.
    Imagine the teeth gnashing then...
    
    JD
    

I think that what they shoulda done was to let some college team play
here. I'm talking coach, staff and all the players. I remember a ways
back when Dean Smith had a team with 3 or 4 Tar Heels on it and they
rolled. They knew how to play a team game and that's what's lacking with
our current selection process which gives a sort of all-star team a
couple of weeks to learn how to play together.

TTom

    TTom-
    
    What I'd like 'em to rally do is choose a national team - oopen to pros
    or college players, with the stipulation they have to play for the US
    National team for a year *before* the Olympics.  A pipe dream - yep -
    but that's sort of what we do with other 'team' sports like Volleyball.
    
    re -2
    
    Here's what my team would look like:
    
    Forwards (4):  Larry Bird, Chris Mullin, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone 
    Reason:  Have two bangers and musclemen in Barkley and Malone - both
    can run the floor.   With Bird and Mullin, you get two great passers,
    and both have good outside shots.  Great complement.
    
    Centers (2):  David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.  Don't feel like I have
    to elaborate on this one.  Get defensive pillar in the pivot, plus good
    offense.
    
    Guards (4):  Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Hersey
    Hawkins
    
    Reasons:  Get two great point guards in Magic and Isiah, and Hawkins is
    the designated bomber, while Jordan is Jordan.
    
    I'd have 2 teams, call 'em Red and Blue.
    
    Red would be the starting team:  Bird, Barkley, Robinson, Magic, Jordan
    Blue would be the replacement team:  Mullin, Malone, Ewing, Isiah,
    Hersey.
    
    JD

    Haas, the Tarheels can't even win the NCAA, let alone the Olympics...
    
    REK
    
    My team... BTW, how many players can you carry?
    
    Coache Don Nelson
    Centers  Ewing, Robinson, Daugherty
    Forwards Bird, K. Malone, Worthy, Wilkins, Mullins, Barkley, King
    Gueards  Jordan, M. Johnson, Stockton, Drexler, K. Johnson
    
    
             REK

 Not a bad team JD and your logic is good but Isiah isn't number 2. Hasn't been
 for years. Number 2 has to be Stockton. He's not as flashy Zeke but he leads
 the league what the last three years in assists plus his assists to turnover
 ratio is larger. Both are quick, both can score and both are adequate defender.

 If he was healthy a bit more often and given the nature of the bomb I'd 
 actually drop either Zeke or John and use Mark Price for his bombing...

 Hershey and Mark together could open up the court better than any other guard
 tantum I could think of...

I like KJ as the 2nd point.

TTom

    MNike-
    
    Yeah, I like Stockton - I only chose Isiah to piss Jordan off ;-)
    
    JD

    Dean Smith is the last USA Basketball coach to bring back a gold medal
    when all significant countries participated.  (Did it without benefit
    of a home court, too.)
    
    :^)
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    re Why Larry Bird?
    
    Well first off, I can't believe you even mentioned Dale Ellis!  He
    could maybe play for Ghana or Surinam or Korea - but he's far down on
    the depth chart.
    
    As for Chambers - he's not multi-dimensional.
    
    I chose Bird because if he's healthy, he's the best passing forward in
    the game.   Mullin is second.  I won't a well rounded team.  My
    designated bomber is Hawkins.  If you noticed, I basically named team
    players - and Tom Chambers does not fit that category.  
    
    I'd pick Worthy, McHale and others over Tommy-gun.
    
    I chose a team that could hit ya in numerous ways.  
    
    Tough pressure defense, running game on offense, half-court set-up, low
    post, 3-point bombs away.
    
    Imagine the ball movement if Larry, Mullins, Magic, Jordan and Robinson
    were on the court!  It would be a thing of beauty.
    
    
    JD

    IN other news, Bill Laimbeer is exploring legal channels to force
    tryouts to make the US Olympic team.
    
    This I agree with.  Just because 'pros' are being used, it shouldn't
    preclude having tryouts.  And if some of the 'stars' refuse to go
    throught tryouts - then fine, they don't have to play.
    
    I all other sports, some sort of tryouts or trials are used - why not
    in hoops?
    
    Also, Friday's USA Today had a good chart on Olympics hoops results.
    
    Many of the 'anti-pro' players complain that the US will romp and stomp
    and kill the opposition.  
    
    35 years ago, the US Olympic hooops team, led by U of SF stars Bill
    Russell and KC Jones, rapped up the gold, winning games by an average
    margin of victory of 53 points.  
    
    4 years later, a team that included the Big O and Jerry West won by an
    average of 42 points.   
    
    In 1964, Bill Bradley and Walt Hazzrd led the US to gold, winning by an
    average of 30 points.  Excep for the 1984 'Sham' Olympics, when the US
    won by 34 points on average - the average total has been coming down
    steadily - until the US started to lose regularly in international
    competition.
    
    So, with the pros playing, we are possibly facing a hoops margin like
    our fathers did 35 years ago - a team that might win by 50 points.  But
    our kids might see pro teams that have to fight and claw to beat the
    rst of the world.  That can only be good for international competition.
    
    JD

    Not to mention the thoughts that the main rivals USSR and Yugoslavia,
    will be weakened by the current politics.  Kukoc (sp?) and Radja are 
    Croatian I think, Sarbonis and Marchilonius (sp?) are from Lithuania 
    and would play for them...  So the big threats would be Lithuania and
    Brazil...
    

    re -1
    
    Don't take this personally, but you exhibit 'ugly American ' syndrome. 
    You assert that basically, the rest of the world can't catch up to
    the US, and that the margin of victory is a result of the competition
    going from pathetic to poor.  
    
    It's exactly that smug attitude that has seen America gone from the
    world's greatest economic power with a trade surplus to a waning
    economic power with a huge deficit.  We have the tendacy to laugh off
    competition, thinking we are so superior, and then decades later,
    wonder what went wrong.  
    
    There's no doubt in my mind that the rest of the world can catch us in
    hoops - just like we can catch the rest of world in soccer.  
    
    I don't underestimate the competition.  It wasn't too long ago that 
    Japanese products were considered junk - especially electronics...
    
    JD

    IMO, tryouts for the Olympic basketball team are absurd.  Do you mean
    to tell me you need a tryout to figure out that Ewing and Robinson are
    the best centers in the NBA????  Oh sure, I know there's some young kid
    out in Sh*twater, Indiana who's been shooting hoops in his driveway 
    since he was two, and now he's attending Anonymous U, a Division II
    school.  But he's gonna be a senior this season, and if he just had a
    chance, he'd show Michael Jordan a thing or two!
    
    Yeah, right!
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz -
    
    TOUGH CRAP, IS WHAT I SAY.  IN all other sports, they have tryouts.
    
    I can't even begin to tell you how many times the #1 ranked sprinter or
    other sportsperson in the world, a US citizen, has had to try out to
    make the Olympic team, only to have an injury or a bad performance see
    them not make it.  The pro hoops players should have to go throught the
    same trials.
    
    Selecting a team is logical only if the selectors are afraid of
    bruising these pampered million-dollar egos masquerading as hoops
    players.
    
    Maybe they should let the 'fans' vote for the Olympic team - heck let
    them vote for all Olympic athletes.  That way, the US ends this messy
    trials business - which is the only 'fair' way to select Olympians.
    
    It may seem meaningless - but it will also show committment.  Will
    Jordan or Ewing or Bird or Magic want to be on the team if they have to
    work for it?  Or they simply want to get selected and a limo drive to
    the arena?
    
    They had tryouts for the team when collegians were on it.  And we had
    things like Charles Barkley not making the squad.  
    
    THey used to invote ~65 collegians to the Olympic tryouts - they should
    do the same now.  And yeah, Jordan would probably make the team -
    unless he got hurt in the tryouts...
    
    JD

    Yeah, JD, but don't the try-outs in those other sports consist of real
    competitive trials, to determine who can run the fastest, etc., where 
    there is no room for subjectivity?  How can you do that with basketball, 
    especially in one week?  After watching the players closely throughout 
    an 82-game NBA season you're going to be able to come to an unbiased 
    decision after a week of passing drills in the gym?  I thought you 
    wanted to guarantee that we bring the best team...
    
    Tryouts would do absolutely nothing to solve the problem of "egos", if
    that is indeed a problem (I don't think it will be nearly as big a
    problem as unfamiliarity...)
    
    glenn
    

    re .53
    
    My comment about fan voting was sarcastic.
    
    And what do you mean there's no time to have tryouts?  THe damn
    Olympics are next summer - there's plenty of time.
    
    Glenn:
    
    Other team sports have tryouts, hoops should too.  I am for the pros
    being able to vie for spots on the team - but to simply hand them
    engraved invitations is stupid.    And guys who dont' want to play -
    like Jordan said originally - shouldn't be forced to play.  It's a
    media circus and a Madison Avenue Wet Dream.
    
    And where's the one week thing?  They have plenty of time to have
    tryouts - if they get their act together.  They could have already had
    them, for gosh sake.  
    
    
    JD

    Jordan Was Instructed to say He was not going to play due to time
    constrainst by the committee in order to keep some element of suprise
    in the announcements.  Quick Question ?
    
    Michael Jordan Played for the 1984 Team (gold Medal), robinson played
    for the 1988 team.  Is there anyone from the 1980 Olympic Team
    available are are any of the other 10 previous Olympian's.  Thanks
    
    I dont think Magic should be on the Team hes too old and Ugly and
    he should step aside and let a younger more talented player have his
    spot on the team... I hear Isiah wants to play.  Really If they have
    tryouts Magic wont make the team, but for others arguments I think
    Pippen would beat out some of the other Old Timers Mentioned.
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

    I hope you were trying to be funny.  Isiah was a member of the 1980
    team, but didn't play due to the boycott.  Mullin and Ewing were on the
    84 team.
    
    Michael was instructed to say he wasn't going to play?  Can't Michael
    think for himself - or is his every move a calculated ploy to send the
    most shivers over his onanistic followers?  What element of surprise?
    There was none.  Everything about the selection was a cheap, tawdry
    show of Madison Avenue glitter.
    
    Magic deserves to be on the team, because he's easily in the top 5 best
    players in the world.  Only someone who doesn't understand the game
    of basketball wouldn't know that.
    
    JD

    Ths whole tryout issue could be solved the same way hockey did it with
    the Canada Cup. Have a training camp with about twice as many players
    as you need. (Steve Yzerman was CUT from the CC team!) Divide them into 
    groups and make 'em work. If Jordan, Robinson, etc. already have a 
    guaranteed place on the team, and if the prevailing attitude is that 
    with the NBA players, all we have to do is show up, the USA is in BIG 
    trouble. I'm not saying these guys won't work hard, but if there's a 
    player coming off a long tough NBA season, he may be too exhausted to 
    put everything into winning the gold.
    
    This talk about the rest of the world never being able to catch up the
    the US is the biggest load of crap I've read since the "Dean Smif
    Does NOT/Does TOO Choke" note. The Soviets used to be pretty weak in
    hockey at one time... It wasn't even until 1972 that the NHL realized
    that the Soviets are at least their equals. 
    
    Political issues aside, the Yugoslavs LOVE basketball (I couldn't believe 
    how many kids playing on outdoor courts I saw when I was there in '84). 
    Mark my words, it will be a matter of time before there will be several 
    top rate Yugoslav players in the NBA. Also, other European leagues, Italy, 
    and Spain in particular, will only get better. Whether the country these 
    players represent in international competition is called "Yugoslavia" or 
    "Croatia," "Serbia," "Macedonia," or "Bosnia-Hezogovenia," you will find 
    good players there. The question is how watered down they will become if 
    they break up the Yugoslavia team. These political issues are best left 
    out of a basketball context, but from a standpoint of competitiveness, it 
    would be a shame if this happens. 
    
    Tom
    
    PS. If the US wins the Gold by 15 points, everyone will say "see our
    guys are better," without thinking that our guys might NOT be better
    too much longer unless we start doing something now.

    Tom -
    
    Exactly.  Have a training camp like they do for Canada Cup - make it
    at least a little competitive.  Suppose Magic goes through the 
    motions, but Kevin Johnson really comes to play - cut Magic and go with
    KJ (and you can substitute Magic and KJ with any player combination you
    want...)
    
    Hockey is a good analogy.  Canada *NEVER* lost in hockey.  *NEVER*. 
    They won an Olympic game by the score of ~32-0 once.  The Canadiens
    *assumed* the Gold was automatically theres.  They expected it. 
    Slowly, the rest of the world started to make the scores respectible.
    Canadiens always had the excuse "Yeah, but if we used our pros, we'd
    whip 'em - we just send our juniors..."  (sound familiar??)
    
    Then, the Canadiens started to lose.  And Lose.  The Soviets were all
    of a sudden considered to have a team *better* or equal to the
    Canadiens.  And they proved it.
    
    To bring it closer - remember when it was *rare* to find an *American*
    on a NHL team?  Remember when you count them on one hand?  It wasn't 
    too long ago.  Now, there are American players everywhere.  And Swedes.
    And Finns.  And Soviets.  And Czechs.
    
    And you know what an old Canadien arguement used to be?  The one that
    said that hockey was Canada's national sport and other countries would
    never catch up?  That it was in the blood of the Canadiens.  You could
    go anywhere and find kids playing hockey.  In cities, in towns, in
    rural villages.
    
    Remember when it was absurb to think of a foreign-born national on an
    NBA team.  Wasn't that funny!  Now there are a few...
    
    JD

    re .61
    
    Aren't there already about 3 Yugoslavs in the NBA?  Didn't the Bulls
    want to offer a Yugoslavian a huge (over a million?) contract to come
    play with them?  
    
    Ever read anything about Yugoslavia, except for the current political
    unrest?   Ever read the SI article on hoops in Yugoslavia?  You'd think
    you were in Indiana.  Everywhere are hoops, and kids bouncing balls,
    playing basketball.  
    
    NBA talent scouts have been saying that the Yugoslavs have some great
    ball players, and the same scouts say the Yugo's could be competitive.
    
    But, I guess you know better then they do.  
    
    JD

re .62
        
>>>    Aren't there already about 3 Yugoslavs in the NBA?  Didn't the Bulls
>>>    want to offer a Yugoslavian a huge (over a million?) contract to come
>>>    play with them?  
   
       Gee, they must be pretty good because you can't even name them in fact
       you're not even sure how many there are. And a million dollars is not
       huge by NBA standards.

>>>    Ever read anything about Yugoslavia, except for the current political
>>>    unrest?   Ever read the SI article on hoops in Yugoslavia?  You'd think
>>>    you were in Indiana.  Everywhere are hoops, and kids bouncing balls,
>>>    playing basketball.  
   
       Honestly, no I haven't read much about Yugoslavia but I did see Vlade
       playing with their national team this past summer and there were fans 
       in the stands with "Vlade is God" banners. Gee, if Vlade is God what
       does that make Michael Jordan?  
 
>>>    NBA talent scouts have been saying that the Yugoslavs have some great
>>>    ball players, and the same scouts say the Yugo's could be competitive.
   
       Correction. NBA scouts have been saying they have some GOOD players and
       with some NBA experience could develop into decent (by our standards)
       players. They don't hardly have the equibalent of a Charles Barkley or
       Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. Those are GREAT players.

>>>    But, I guess you know better then they do.  
   
       Kill the patronizing tone JD. It doesn't become you. I had no desire to
       engage in a silly flame war. All I said was that it would take the rest
       of the world a couple of generations to catch the US in basketball if
       they ever do and I stand by that. If you have a different opinion fine
       we allow that in America.
    
    

    
    
    Yeah, I can't remember their names - Divac, Stroko (Celts) and I think
    one other.  Th bulls were going to sign the guy for multi-million,
    multi-year deal, I believe, but Pippen would have been p.o.'d and they
    wouldn't make the salary cap.
    
    As for your last paragraph - I've repeatedly said that the rest of the
    world would probably catch us over time - just as its happened in other
    sports with other countries.  We seem to acutally agree with that.  
    
    Michael Jordan is God - just ask any of his fans.  To Yugo's, Vlade is
    God.  He's done pretty well in the NBA.  
    
    DO I think the NBA stars will win the Gold?  Yep.
    
    Do I think they will win by a lot?  Yep.
    
    Do I think the rest of world will benefit by playing them?  Yep.
    
    Do I think the rest of the  world can become competitive?  Yep.
    
    Will it take time?  Yep.
    
    I believe we'll see some sort of 'world' pro league in the near future.
    Football already experimented with it.  Hoops has the MacDonalds'
    challenge, plus ex-pro's like McAdoo playing in Europe.  Top draft
    picks are opting to play in Europe.
    
    All of that will make the international hoops arena much better.
    
    JD

    > football already experimented with it
      Didn't the WLAF use all, or almost all, Americans on the foreign
    teams?
                                 Denny

    Kukoc is supposed to be the European Magic...
    
    Kukoc and Radja are Croats, and if they become independent would
    probably not play for the Yugo team...
    
    I thought I said this before, maybe not...

    Toni Kukoc was indeed offered a pretty HUGE contract by the bulls
    that would have pissed off pippen but they would have found a way
    to keep them both happy im sure.  Kukoc opted to take something like
    a 15million 5yr deal.  Toni and Dino Radja are 2 drated Yugo's (:-)
    that opted to not play in the NBA but were good enough to get drafted
    Then again Michael Smith was GOOD ENOUGH to get drafted, by the same
    team that Drafted Stoyko....hhmmmm.  Then there's Vlade Divan the only
    Yugo thats really made an impact in the NBA.  If these are the 4 best
    Yugo's available to play basketball Id say they have a shot a beating
    an Amature USA team but with Pro's playing will get squashed.  I too
    agree it will take many, many, many years for any country to field a
    team (basketball) to compete with the USA in the olympics.  I may not
    see it happen....
    							MaB

    With 4 or 5 Yugoslavs who could be decent NBA players today, how many
    similar quality players do you think will be around 10 years from now?
    Perish the thought, but who's to say that there just *might* be a kid
    in Yugoslavia who *could* grow up to be a genuine mega-star in the NBA?
    
    The reason why I think other countries will catch up more quickly than
    some of you is due to the shrinking of the earth. There are at least 2
    cable channels (Sky and EuroSport) who regularly show NBA games in
    Europe. They DO have VCRs there, and you can bet your bottom Dinar that 
    every "Bill Fitchjanovic" type coach has tapes upon tapes of NBA games 
    and analyzes them to death. This is how inferior (for now) players, 
    coaches and teams LEARN to become better - at every facet of the game.
    Combine this with travel being reasonalby easy, so foreign coaches can 
    go to clinics in the US without TOO much expense, as well as teams
    coming to the US to play colleges or junior teams playing high schools,
    one can understand how a lot of progress can be made.
    
    Let me reiterate that what happened to Canada in hockey could easily
    happen to the US in basketball. My "load of crap" comment may have been 
    a little harsh, but I'm sick and tired of Americans having this smug, 
    self-assuring attitude that regardless of any reality, we are still 
    Ay-number-one in the good ole Yew Ess Ay! 
    
    The world is a very competitive place in every aspect. One could easily 
    have made the same types of smug assumptions we're making about basketball 
    about American indusrty around 1950. Sure, that dinky little country made 
    up of a buncha islands that we just bombed may be finally cleaning up
    the rubble and getting their act together, but they can't come close to 
    us! Sure let 'em HAVE the little car market! Who the hell wants to buy a 
    four-cyllinder car when you can have a V-8 with fins? The US was the 
    country that laughed W. Edwards Deming out of the country because he
    had some cockamamie idear about quality. Whadda we need quality for, 
    we're the Yew-Ess-Ay? The Japanese were a little more willing to listen 
    and lo and behold.....   
    
    Tom
    
    PS. Doc, you're title says it all (.68 - Basketball is to USA what
    soccer is to GBR). The English invented soccer. Many clubs around the
    world have English names and leagues are based on the English system.
    BUT soccer is a worldwide sport. The English are still very good, but
    they are clearly NOT the best (unless you only read the English press).
    The rest of the world HAS caught up over the years, and the sport is
    better off because of it. The same could happen in basketball.        

    re last
    
    Oops! case of mistaken identity....Meant to address The comment to "Air," 
    not Doctor 00:00

    
     Everyone that claims that the rest of the world will catch up to us
    tomorrow seems to be making the assumption that basketball in the US
    is stagnant. It isn't. Think about it. From Mikan to Michael is a
    mighty long stretch.
     The shrinking of the earth argument and the comparisons of basket-
    ball to American industry while compelling on the surface just don't
    hold up. You can sit in front of a VCR all day long but if you can't
    play ball, you can't play ball. The other thing is that basketball
    more than any other game allows for the personality and creativty of
    each individual player. Creativity and personality are two things Amer-
    icans have never lacked.
     The tone of some of the arguments of how the rest of the world is
    catching up to us in basketball make it sound like some sort of nation-
    al crisis. Its not. We have enough real crises in this country with-
    out creating artificial ones.
      

    
    Y'know, I don't want to get branded as a communist or anything, but I
    kinda think I might get some kind of perverse pleasure outta seeing
    these NBA prima donnas at least get the bleep scared out of them by the
    Yugos or the Brazilians or someone.  I've never really been into this
    nationalistic thing as concerns the Olympics, but have more enjoyed the
    competition.  It's pretty hard to get *too* pumped up for Goliath, even
    if he's on your side.
    
    Anyone else got this feeling?
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn -
    
    I doubt it will happen, but it would be kind of funny.  So many
    Americans think that all the US has to do is go 'BOO!' and the rest of
    the world will run away.
    
    re -2
    
    No one has said the rest of the world will catch up tomorrow.  Everyone
    has said over time they will catch up.  And it isn't a national crisis
    - yet one of the main reasons the US fought to have the 'Dream Team'
    was to restore American hoops pride - since its been 6 years since
    we've won a major tournament.
    
    And yes, you are right that hoops hasn't remained stagnent, and that it
    won't become stagnant in the USA.  And yes, creativity is pretty darn
    nice.  Yet it is teamwork that wins championships.  That's an
    undeniable fact.  The Celtics fo the 50's and the 60's had incredible
    teamwork, along with talent and just the right amount of creativity. 
    Those teams weren't a bunch of guys being creative doing their own
    thing - those are teams that watch the playoffs.
    
    All that has been said is that some of feel that the rest of the world
    can, and probably will, catch the US in hoops and become competitive.
    It does not mean that the US will fall off the Hoops map.  
    
    I'll be interested to see how international rules hinder/help the pros.
    
    JD

    If the question is "Could we ever get beat in hoops at the Olympics
    with our NBA stars?", the answer is obviously 'Yes'.  In a best-of-1
    series *anything* can happen, especially when other teams have
    reasonable talent and a huge advantage in teamwork.
    
    If the question is "Will any country catch up to the USA in hoops?",
    the answer is (IMO) 'No'.  Basketball is *way* too popular in this
    country, particularly in the inner city where the top-notch talent
    comes from.  (Considering this point further, one could conclude that
    if our economic status continues to decline, our lead in basketball
    will correspondingly increase.)
    
    The depth of basketball in this country is unparalleled, what with 
    close to 300 colleges playing at the Divison 1 level.  Nobody in the
    world can even come close to the sheer numbers of quality players this
    country turns out.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

And besides, no one in their right mind would ever let Dean
coach the Olympic team....

[many 8^)]

'SAaw

    I always felt that the concept of "amateur" athletes competing for
    honors was the best.  However, that only works when all countries truly
    send "amateurs".
    
    Since that hasn't been the case for quite some time, if ever, I now
    feel that this condition should be eliminated and let's just see the
    best of one country against the best of the others.  
    
    While we don't like to think of it as such, this has, to some extent,
    been the condition with track and field.  A number of athletes have
    been "subsidized" by equipment manufacturers and athletic clubs.  Where
    do you make the cut?  I won't even get into the tangle of Eastern
    European countries disguising their best as members of their armed
    forces.
    
    Cut the restrictions, define the rules of play, and let's get on with
    it.  Until the IOC can come up with a better way of enforcing the
    "amateurism" condition, it's a sham to continue it that vein.
    
    lEe

    
     First of all thanks ACC Chris for that dose of sanity.
    
     This probably belongs in the quote note but here's Bill Laimbeer
     on why he wants tryouts for the Olympic team: "My point is the Ol-
     ympics are about sacrifice and earning. It's not about just giving
     things out". He goes on to say that if there were tryouts and he
     didn't make it he could live with it. He also questions how McDonald's
     came up with a commercial featuring the "dream team" so soon after it
     was picked. Gee, its almost like it was in the bag. Naaah, couldn't
     happen. That would be commercialising the Olympics and that's beneath
     corporate America. 
    
      To all of those who say lets send our best and that the rest of the
     world is catching up. Aren't those two sentiments a tad contradictory ?
     Think about it. On the one hand you want to display American dominance
     but to do so you deny the younger guys a chance at international comp-
     etition.
    
      -Tommy

�     First of all thanks ACC Chris for that dose of sanity.
    
    Yeah, I especially liked the part about you have to be poor to be a
    good basketball player.
    
�That would be commercialising the Olympics and that's beneath
�     corporate America. 
    
    If it weren't for "corporate America" there would be no US Olympic
    team.  There are no government funds for American athletes, and private
    contributions just wouldn't cut it these days.  The thing that bothers
    me about that McDonald's ad is that a team made up of NBA stars even
    needs sponsorship.
    
    My thoughts on the selection process:  Who needs a tryout?  The first
    cut was made by the NBA.  If you aren't good enough to play
    professionally, are you one of America's best?  I don't think so.  For
    those who say this is depriving our college kids, I say how.  They will
    have a chance if and when they are drafted by the NBA.  Tryouts are
    useful to look at a large number of athletes the selectors might not
    see during the course of the year.  How many more times do the
    selectors of the basketball team need to see these guys play if 80 some
    odd games won't do it?
    
    

    Interesting article in today's Boston Hearld. There is the possibility that
    seems that we all might be coming down too hard on Jordan w.r.t. Isiah. 
    the Hearld's take on the situation is that Magic is the biggest power 
    broker in the NBA among players, and if Magic was going to push for his 
    buddy on the team, Isiah would have been on the team ...
    
    To quote from the article :
    
    " .... 'Magic's the most powerful guy in the league', said an NBA coach who
    prefers anonymity, said referring to the Los Angeles conglomerate and
    creative basketball genius. 'They had a selection process and
    everything, but if Magic wanted Isiah on the team, it would have been a
    done deal.'
    
    The contention makes sense when you consider that Magic waited until two 
    days after the selections were announced to voice his support for
    Thomas. And the 10 picks were essentially an open book until July....
    
    Those who persist in focusing on the Jordan-Thomas matter should note
    the harmonious way the two performed in the 1990 All-Star game. And be
    advised  that Jordan is petrified of being attached to open
    manipulation. He saw what abuse Magic took when Paul Westhead was fired
    ...
    
    So did Magic block Isiah from the Olympic team ? No ....But was he
    upset at Thomas' exclusion ? Probably not as much as he'll try to make
    you believe.
    
    And lest you think the afreomentioned source is doing PR work for
    Isiah, the coach stated flatly that Joe Dumars is far and away the
    most deserving Piston ..." 
    
    Even when you consider the source (the Hearld), and the potential bias,
    it is very plausible ....
    
    Dr M

    Well, I'd be the first to say it's not a "national crisis." The analogy
    of American industry was to illustrate that smugness has a way of
    catching up to people, if they are not careful. Y'know, you could
    substitue "cars" for "basketball players" and it would have sounded
    like an undisputed truth in the '50s.
    
    The point is if the USA thinks it can send a bunch of NBA All-Stars to 
    Barcelona without having them practice/play together and without taking as
    seriously as other countries, they WILL get beat. It may not happen in
    '92 or even '96 but unless they take their opponents seriously, it WILL
    happen sometime. Also, there are a ton of players who *COULD* be on the
    team, but it should be up to the coaches and management of the Olympic
    team to decide who those players are. Because Magic and Bird are among
    the best in the NBA (based on their play with the Celtics and Lakers)
    to assume they would mesh on the court playing with the same team is
    stretching it a bit. Could Bird be as effective if he played for a team
    with the Nuggets' run-n-gun style? Obviously the Celtics management has
    decided to play a certain style to best exploit the abilities of their
    aging players. A different system wouldn't work too well. This is why they 
    need a training camp.
    
    Take a page from other sports. The First Canada vs USSR series in 1972
    had a bunch of NHL All-stars playiong a few exhibitions at home, then
    off on a nice junket to Moscow. The only question was how many goals
    would we win by. It didn't quite work out that way. They went 1-2-1 at
    home, an finally woke up and took 3 of 4 games in Moscow, the last game
    on a goal with :02 left. Sure, they "won" the series, but nothing has been 
    the same since. Ever since then, when making up these teams they have 
    looked for just as many "grinders" and "unsung workman" type players 
    instead of only the stars and glamour players that were on the '72 roster.
    
    A little healthy competition is GOOD. Let Michael FIGHT Isiah for the
    spot on the team. If one works harder and seems to complement the
    other players better, fine, he deserves the job. If they hand guys jobs on
    silver platters, there is little incentive to be in a competitive frame 
    of mind. Sure, more than likely most of the same players will be on the
    final team, but they will be in much better shape to be at their best.  
    
    Tom

    RE Tom -
    
    I'd like tryouts for no other reason then to mold a team.
    
    To bring up T &F again - the US, without question, has the best and
    deepest squad of sprinters in the world.  NO one, and I mean no one,
    its close.
    
    Yet, the French held the 4 x100 record until the US team broke it at
    the recent world champeenships.  Why?  Teamwork.  The 4 sprinters on
    the french team would not even be considered for a US team - they'd be
    second tier talent.  But they passed the baton and worked the zone to
    perfection.  Without a doubt, the best technical team I've ever seen in
    sprint racing.  The US lost the 4 x400 to the British - and it was due
    to team work.  At numerous big meets, including the 88 Olympics, the US
    has had a team disqualified for dropping the baton or running out of
    the zone - because of lack of practice and discipline.
    
    Now, I know there's a big difference between the relays and hoops - but
    I'd like to see the guys have to fight it our, even just a little bit,
    to make the team...
    
    One thing I don't understand is talk of adding a couple of players, one
    a collegian.  Why?  Why have a college kid play when you have another
    couple of hundred NBA players you could choose from?
    
    JD

>    Yeah, I especially liked the part about you have to be poor to be a
>    good basketball player.
    
    I've been misquoted before, but *NEVER* this blatantly.  What a
    completely bogus paraphrase.
    
    NEVER, EVER, NEVER, ... did I ever say "you have to be poor to be a
    good basketball player".  100% garbage.
    
    The fact that a high percentage of top-notch basketball talent comes
    from the inner-city is a fact, and if you don't believe it you're
    simply ignorant on the subject.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

�(Considering this point further, one could conclude that
�    if our economic status continues to decline, our lead in basketball
�    will correspondingly increase.)
    
    I didn't have to reach far to get "you have to be poor to play
    basketball" from the above statement.

    
    So what is the difference between NBA and international rules anyway?
    
    I understand the lane is a different width and the 3-point line is a
    little closer, but I thought the ball was smaller too.  That could
    either throw off the timing of the NBA shooters, or conversely, make
    them feel like they're throwing the ball in the ocean.
    
    Any other differences?
    
    Dickstah
    

    Yeah on a turnover the ball does not have to be touched by the ref...
    
    
    Make a very quick fast break...
    
    REK

    
     Another couple of differences between NBa rules and international
    rules are that zone defenses are allowed. Hence the need for three
    point shooters. And the ball on the rim is in play.

    From memory here, but ... isn't the lob-pass-for-a-dunk illegal in
    international rules also?  I know that once the ball touches the rim,
    its fair game, however.  Any shot clock or in-bound time-limit
    differences?
    
    Also, its been asked once, (not answered) what is the roster limit for
    the Olymics?
    
    RE: allowing pros
    
    I was always against the pro-ban at the games.  I thought it was
    amusing that the gold medalists in the original Greek Olympiads
    recieved free housing and complete tax-exemption for a year.
    
    Commander Scott

    Well, as you all know, I've been a staunch supporter of the US sending
    pros to play in hoops, because I've felt we should send our best.
    
    however, I have now changed my mind, and have decided to now watch any
    hoops played by our 'Dream team'.  This has nothing about our use of
    the Pros.  I stil l believe they should play.
    
    I've learned some information about the team that makes my want to
    puke.
    
    As you probably know, making the Olympics is the penultimate thrill for
    most American athletes.  Years of training and hard work go into making
    the team.  Athletes have to compete to get on the team - with the
    exception of the NBA prima donnas, who get selected by a couple of guys
    and MacDonald's.
    
    If this method was used in 1976 for all sports, Edwin Moses would not
    have made the Olympic Team (Edwin won the gold AND set a world record
    in his event...)  Ditto for other folks.
    
    But, what really galls me, besides the fact that there are no tryouts,
    is the special treatment they will get.
    
    The U.S. Olympic team - the Dream Team - you know, the guys that will
    let us 'strut our chests' by bringing back the Gold and restoring honor
    in Madison Avenue, will not:
    
    * Have to attend opening or closing ceremonies.  They are exempt.  They
    are too special to parade around the stadium with mere peasants like
    wrestlers, team handball players, and hurdlers.
    
    * Have to live in the Olympic Athletes village.  Nope, these little
    darlings can't stay with the rest of America's best in the olympic
    village - they have to have special treatment - cozy rooms, chauffered 
    transportation, special meals....
    
    I assume the USOC is going to pick up the tab (though I suspect the
    sneaker companies, gatorade, etc... will make a 'contribution')
    
    This is 100% horse hockey!!!  If they want to play in the OLympics, and
    be olympians - then damnit they should have to abide by the rules
    everyone else DOES!!!!
    
    
    What a load.   
    
    Here's one American that hopes we fall flat on our faces.
    
    JD

    JD, do you happen to know how this came about?  That is, were these
    things demanded by someone, or did the USIOC simply make the changes?
    
    You're right, something stinks about it.  
    
    Lee

    Lee,
    
    I read two articles which stated the same thing.  Not sure if they were
    demanded - but I suspect it was part of the 'agreement' between USOC,
    commercial sponsers, and players agents in exchange for players
    being named to the team.
    
    In all, it seems that hte players themselves would be cheating
    themsevles of a wonderful opportunity - at least those like Barkley
    that have never been on an Olympic team.  They would miss the whole
    spirit of being on the team.
    
    I'd rathers send Suffolk University's Hoop squad to the games and have
    them be real olympians, then these guys.
    
    The whole way they did this stinks.
    
    JD

     The only thing shocking about the developments you mentioned JD
    is that anyone is shocked. Did you really expect the pro players
    to be as happy as some wrestler from Sheep Dip, Iowa just to be
    a part of the Olympic experience ? The Olympics is NOT the pen-
    ultimate thrill for these multi-millionaires, the NBA championship
    is. There's an old addage that the worst punishment would be the
    granting of  your fondest wish. I think I saw it on "Fractured 
    Fairytales". Hope you're happy. "Strut your chest" big guy. 
    Personally I'm still waiting for the winner of the Holyfield-Tyson
    fight (provided he's not in jail) to demand to represent the US
    in Barcelona. Wouldn't it be beautiful to see (fill in the blank)
    ascending the stand to the strains of the 'Star Spangled Banner'
    after having just rendered comatose some brave young soul from
    Minsk. Yeah, let's send our best.
    

�    wrestlers, team handball players, and hurdlers.

	Speakin' of 'rasslin why don't we send our professionals in that 
sport too!  I'm sure REK agrees wif' me 100%

				/Don

    Slasher... All the pro asslers would fail the drug test... and most
    liklysome of the gender tests too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
    
    REK

    Talk about opening up a can of worms...
    
    If you don't think someone told Isiah "you'd better cya or you're
    in big trouble", then you're dreaming.  Then he walks off the court
    against Chicago and people get on his case?  Either way he's in a
    can't win situation now, but if the guy can play, he should be there.
    
    As far as Bird goes, explain why he's on the team.  He didn't do much
    last year.  Thomas was told (officially) you need to prove yourself
    after the injury last year.  What's the deal with Bird, unless there
    was something to what Rodman said...  Bird's better than Drexler?
    Wilkins?  Kemp?  Chambers?  Assuming they needed a forward.  They've
    got Jordan, Stockton and Magic at guard, and 5 forwards?  Why do they
    need 5? 
    
    Oh well, they must know best...
    

    Perhaps not putting the pro hoops players into the Olympic village was
    to protect them from the rush of autograph hounds and adoring fans.

    Nobody would come up to Carl Lewis?  Janet Evans?  Matt Biondi?

 �   Perhaps not putting the pro hoops players into the Olympic village was
 �   to protect them from the rush of autograph hounds and adoring fans.
 
 ... and gun-toting terrorists.
 
 Somehow I can't see the Dream Team skipping out on the Opening Ceremonies.   
 That's a great photo opportunity.    Magic with his million dollar smile
 walking with the rest of the American contingent ... how could he pass
 that up ???    And Sir Charles who was so disappointed when Knight left
 him off the team in 1984.   How could he pass up the chance ???
 
 Maybe I'm being naive but I'd like to think that they'll get caught up in
 the spirit and atmosphere and chuck the spoiled brat routines.   If not
 then JD's right ... who care ???
 
 Bob Hunt

Bird does not belong on the team.   I've read that of the 10 players currently
selected, probably only 7 or 8 will actually be on the team when the games
come around.  Larry's inclusion on this roster was a publicity ploy.

What's the starting lineup look like?

	F - Malone           
	F - Pippen  {rather see Barkley off the bench}
	C - Robinson         
	G - Jordan
	G - Magic

I personally wouldn't want Isaiah on the team either.   He's good, but I don't
think he could be a truly unselfish POINT GUARD like he would have to be.  I'd
much rather see Dumars than Thomas.   

Apparently, there's going to be one college player named to the team.  Guess
it will be either Laetner, Shaq O'Neal, or Jimmy Jackson.

    
    Mac -
    
    Wouldn't they be hounded by autograph seekers even more out in the
    public?  At the hotels, in restaurants, etc?  Wouldn't they be easier
    targets.
    
    Re .93
    
    So basically, you don't give a crap about anything as long as
    a_AMerican wins a gold medal.  
    
    Sorry, but the Olympics should be more than 'Rent-A-Gold' for the US.
    
    We shoulda just nuked the commies when we had the chance.
    
    JD

    This is why I have been arguing from the start of this topic that they
    should have a training camp. I don't care for Thomas, but he certainly
    is good enough to be considered for the team. If there were tryouts Isaiah 
    and any other players who wanted to play could either EARN their spots or 
    shut up, plain and simple. The same goes for Larry Bird. If he had to
    earn his slot and he did, fine, but if another guy comes in and beats
    him out, so be it.
    
    Tom

    As usual in this discussion, Byrdie has aced the hole.  How can anyone
    be surprised by this?  The whole deal stink, stank, stunk from the
    git-go.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Forget all this crap, send the 2 time World Champion Chicago Bulls
    as a team to the O's.   I dont think Thomas should be on the team,
    I dont think Tryouts are realistic and Im not sure about bird...But
    Jordan/Pippen/Robinson... I cant wait
    							GO BULLS

I second the nomination of sending a team. 

Just send the Bulls or the Lakers or whoever and forget the tryouts, who
should be on it, etc.

TTom

    I can't say that I'm thrilled that the basketball team won't be staying
    in the Olympic Village.  However, there is precedent for athletes
    staying somewhere else if they choose to - several, including Chris
    Evert, did in Seoul.  As far as I know, athletes aren't *required* to
    participate in the opening and closing ceremonies, either.  Most
    athletes who have competition the day after the opening *don't* go to
    those ceremonies (and some of them complain about it).  I'm pretty sure
    that Janet Evans left the '88 Olympics after her events, and wasn't in
    the closing ceremonies - I'm sure there are others.  Edwin Moses (I
    think) has been among those who complain that their celebrity in the
    Village causes a significant amount of distraction from preparation to
    compete.
    
    To me, the real shame is that the competing is overlooked in the
    pressure to *win*.  Some of my favorite shots from each Olympics have
    been of the athletes who come with no expectation of winning, but a
    sincere wish to be part of the games.  Eddie the Eagle, for example. 
    Or the Costa Rican skier (I think) shown snowplowing down the giant
    slalom course.  I remember more of these folks from winter than summer
    games, although I hope they are there in the summer also.  For me, they
    are the heart and soul of what the "Olympic movement" is all about.
    
    A&W

    Why don't they hold try-outs, then on the first day, shoot everybody!!!
    
    Then send an all-star team comprised of ::Sports_Noters!!!
    
    JaKe
    

    I want to be on the SPORTS noters swim team.  I been practicin'!
    
    	--dan'l

>    Some of my favorite shots from each Olympics have
>    been of the athletes who come with no expectation of winning, but a
>    sincere wish to be part of the games.  Eddie the Eagle, for example. 
>    Or the Costa Rican skier (I think) shown snowplowing down the giant
>    slalom course.  I remember more of these folks from winter than summer
>    games, although I hope they are there in the summer also.  For me, they
>    are the heart and soul of what the "Olympic movement" is all about.
    

Den dere's de Jamaican Bobsled team, mon.  Here's hopin' de be
brangin' back a gold to Jamaica.....

Finally:


		TO WIN THE GAME IS GREAT
		TO PLAY THE GAME IS GREATER
		TO LOVE THE GAME IS GREATEST......

    I read that the reasoning behind selecting Bird to the team was to honor
    him for what he did for the NBA.  It was recognized that Bird and Magic
    were 2 big reasons for the turnaround in popularity of pro-hoops in the
    US.

    
    >>I want to be on the SPORTS noters swim team.  I been practicin'!
    
    >>	--dan'l
    
    
    Hope you're wearing a wet-suit in case of water pollution!!!
    
    (8^)*    (8^0*
    
    JaKe
    

Why not send a ragtag team of kids from a HS. in Indiana and provide Kathy 
Ireland as coach. 
If anything team would put out 100% effort. 

:*)

    	The whole thing is such a joke we should just send the Globetrotters.

    Re Byrdie-
    
    First, thanks for the compliments.  Nothing like personal attacks. 
    Good style.
    
    Second - no, I didn't compare America's losses in hoops to the decline
    of American industry.  However, by the comment, it's fairly obvious
    that you never understood or comprehended the arguement that Tom Hill
    was making.  It was all about how it was possible for other countries
    to catch the USA in hoops - maybe not this Olympics, but sometime. You
    happened to put forth the view that it would never happen.  An opposing
    view was put forth.  I put forth the history of how Canada had the same 
    smug attitude about hockey.  Now do you understand.
    
    I was for the Pros playing because I felt we should play our best. 
    However, I never said "Let's get McDonalds and Nike to pick a team..."
    Which is basically what happened.  I advocated tryouts from the
    beginning.
    
    And no, I don't assume smiley faces, because there has never been
    anything in your replies to warrant that you would ever use smileys.
    And I didn't forget my smileys in the 'nuke em' statement.  I pegged
    you for that mentality, and I wasn't disappointed.
    
    
    Re Alison -
    
    You make some points.  I guess what I read was that the team would jet
    in for the games, and jet out as soon as possible.  Also, there's a
    possibility that they will practice less than 6 times together - not
    that it will matter, cuz they will win the gold with their eyes closed.
    
    I've always thought the opening ceremonies were mandatory - except for 
    athletes competing the next day.  The closing ceremonies have always
    been looser when it comes to attendance.  
    
    I've also heard what Mac said earlier about some of the 'named' players
    may not compete...
    
    JD

    I take it that this is the 10 that were selected:
    
    >G   Michael Jordan
    >G   Magic Johnson 
    >G   John Stockton 
    >C   Patrick Ewing 
    >C   David Robinson 
    >F   Chris Mullin 
    >F   Larry Bird 
    >F   Charles Barkley
    >F   Karl Malone 
    >F   Scottie Pippen 
    
    No matter who you pick, someone will be slighted.  Open tryouts are the
    only way to go.  In my opinion, 4 of the above wouldn't make the team
    under an open tryout format, except for Isiah.  Between the Bird
    comments, ignoring Jordan at the All-Star game, and walking off the floor
    prior to official elimination, he has sealed his fate.  I've lost
    respect for Magic over the Isiah controversy too.  He and Jordan were
    on TV together in an interview about the Olympic team.  Jordan
    explained his side and Magic never defended his "best friend" until 2
    days later off camera!
    
    If I was the coach, the following would be probable to make the team 
    under an open tryout format (based on pure talent):
    
    >G   John Stockton - with so many scorers on this team, he'd be a
    refreshing role player.  There is more talent out there though, and all
    of them have better stats than Isiah.
    
    Kevin Johnson - quicker, better scorer, routinely eats Stockton's lunch.
                    Only Jordan and Magic have better averages for all NBA
                    guards.
    Ron Harper      -  does it all and is deadly when healthy.
    Fat Lever       -  ditto
    Michael Williams - this guy opened a lot of eyes last year under the
                       new system at Indiana, especially in the playoffs!
    Joe Dumars      - still say he's the best player in Motown.
    Tony Campbell   - another that can really light it up
    Terry Porter    - another that can do it all
    Clyde Drexler   - ditto.  Only question mark here is his poor judgement
                 in critical conditions and overall approach to a team sport.
                 Third best averages of this group of alternates.
    Tim Hardaway    - another 4 star guard.  only KJ has better numbers
                      than him.
    
    >C   Patrick Ewing 
    >C   David Robinson 
    
    Hakeem Olajuwon is the only challenger here.  I haven't heard if he will, 
    but wouldn't be surprised if he played for his native country.
    
    >F   Chris Mullin - great shooter and passer, susceptable on defense
         because of foot speed.
    >F   Larry Bird - as a Boston fan, this hurts, but I'd have to be
         realistic (being the coach).  A early to mid '80s Larry would be a 
         lock on this team.
    >F   Scottie Pippen - good all-around talent, but I think there's
         better out there.
    
    Dominque Wilkins - coming off the best year of his career where he
             finally matured and learned the team concept.  He should be a
             lock on this team.
    Bernard King - he's hurt right now, but after last year, he proved he 
                   still has it.  
    Charles Smith - great Clippers' forward.  Excellent scorer and
                   rebounder.  Number slightly higher than Worthy's.
    James Worthy - I hate his team, but will give credit where its due. 
                 His numbers are as good or better than those in question.
    Larry Nance  - sort of a Scottie Pippen clone.  Would at least have to
                   be looked at.
    Roy Tarpley - if he could stay sober, would also be a lock
    Derrick Coleman - possible but doubtful
    Terry Cummings  - ditto
    Tom Chambers    - ditto again
    Sean Kemp       - the forward of the future.  As hungry as he is, he'd
                      probably rise to the occaision in tryouts.
    
    Mike

    Re Byrdie,
    
    Well in .103, you make the crack about killing parents and then the 
    intelligence crack.  I consider those personal attacks.
    
    Other than that, all is well.
    
    

    Why don't you guys pull an Isaih and Magic, and just kiss and make up!
    
    8^)
    
    Conan
    

    Mike -
    
    That list ain't bad, but I'd consider Reggie Miller (zone buster),
    possibly Scott Skiles and Rodman as invitees.  I wouldn't invite
    King (too old, 1-dimensional), Lever or Harper (until he heals)
    right now...
    
    
    
    I would the Hakeem would play with his native country.  That would
    eliminate guys like Bol, Rolando Blackman, and a couple of others
    too.

    Mike 
    
    Last I heard, Hakeem was going to play for Nigeria.  Canada will 
    probably have Bill Wennington and a few others on the squad.  Blackmon
    could play for Puerto Rico (?).
    
    They used to invite 65 college players to the tryouts....
    
    JD

    What if Ewing played for Jamaica mon? ;-)
    
    Re: Reggie Miller
    
    Yeah I forgot about him.  His numbers are up there too.  I only
    included King, Harper, etc., because they all have the stats to justify
    their selection.
    
    Mike

 Cmon now anyone who doesn't think that despite his old decrepit body that
 Bird isn't still one of the best in the game is just an ole anti-green
 meanie. Before his injury last year the teeam was 29-5 because of Bird.
 He stopped trying to take all the shots yet he still rebounded, he still
 passed, he still scored and he still played one of the best one man zone 
 defense in the game.  Drexler, Nigue and all these other fancy high slamma
 jammas can't compare to Larry in brains, passing, rebounding, foul shooting
 and desire. Daly said from day 1 the one player he wanted on his team was
 Bird...

 wonder why?

 mike

  >>Daly said from day 1 the one player he wanted on his team was Bird...
    
  >>wonder why?

    Cuz McDonald's told him to. 8^)
             

    
    
    	Basically, I think Bird deserves to be on the team.  Granted he
    is not the old Larry, but he is still a great player.  Even through
    these injuries, he has still given 100% and is a great team player
    which can't be said about many of the current NBA players.
    
    	Bird is still reguarded as one if not the best passing forwards
    in the league.  He can still rebound and shoot.  But most of all, he
    has that ability to elevate his teammates play.  On the other hand,
    Nique and Drexler have hardly showed that they are in this class.
    The stats are there, but I don't see the other qualities.  When's
    the last time you've see a majority of these guys go for the loose
    ball by sacrificing their body, especially when they are hurt?
    
    	A lot of people will complain about his selection, but I feel he
    should be there.  He is still in that best group of forwards and
    baring any further injury this year, could have a very respectable
    season.
    
    	I guess for me, given the last shot of the game to win it, I'd
    still take Bird over 99% of the current players available.  Not that
    it will take such a shot to win the gold, but Bird brings other 
    qualities to the team then just overall stats.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    As I said before, Drexler has loads of talent, but the team concept is
    foreign to him.
    
    I made my comments about Bird with my green glasses off.  Knowing his
    competitive spirit, he would more than rise to the occaision in an
    open tryout format.  Yet another reason why we should have them.  Weed
    out the wannabes...
    
    Mike

    I was thinking about this note overnight (yes, I'm a very sick puppy).
    
    I'm looking for reactions to this as a suggestion.
    
    What if selection to the Olympic team meant that the player committed
    himself to playing from 6 months to a year on the international team,
    using international rules, as preparation for the Games?
    
    Basically, that is what the 1980 hockey team did.  It is what our
    volleyball teams do.  It would give the selected players and coaches an
    opportunity to gel as a team and get used to the changes in rules and
    equipment between NBA, NCAA, and the international game.  The
    commitment might not be for *exclusive* international team play, or it
    might be.  While we might not get the superstars, we also wouldn't be
    looking at an ill-prepared All Star team.  Those superstars who wanted
    to compete under those guidelines, could.
    
    A&W

    A&W -
    
    It is exacctly what I'd like to see.  However, it takes a very special
    individual to make that sort of committment.
    
    No way pro players would/could do it.  Unless they did it after a
    contract was up...
    
    JD

   First of all you *are* one sick dude.

   Secondly I think in a perfect world your suggestion might have merit
   but as we all know this is not a perfect world. There's way too much
   money involved, both for the teams that have these players under con-
   tract and for the players themselves. Also no one feels the need. The 
   general perception (right or wrong) is that there's no one to present
   anything even remotely resembling a challenge to the US especially
   with the turmoil in the Eastern Bloc. Why practice? So we can win by a
   hundred instead of forty ? 

   BTW- I don't use smiley faces. I think they're the noting equivalent of
        canned laughter so when I say you're sick you'll have to decide for
        yourself whether or not I mean it.
  
   In other news Stojko Vrankovic, who I assume will be playing for *somebody*
   in the Olympics, is being called a big disappointment by unnamed sources
   in the Celtics organization. Apparently the Celts feel like they've in-
   vested too much time and money to totally write him off so chances are
   he'll be given every opportunity to prove he's NBA material. Food for
   thought for those of you who honestly believed the Yugoslavs could make
   the NBA playoffs.

    

>>   First of all you *are* one sick dude.

>>   BTW- I don't use smiley faces. I think they're the noting equivalent of
>>       canned laughter so when I say you're sick you'll have to decide for
>>        yourself whether or not I mean it.
  
 
Speaking strictly as a MODERATOR:

	I think I'm gonna let this go on like this....NOT


I've been following this "discussion" for a couple of days.  I'm having
a hard time figuring out just how "personal" this debate is getting.

Normally I err on the side of "letting the lads play on", but in this
case I'm gonna whistle this up.

Personally, I don't care what your interpretation of smilies are.  They
are more or less an established noting point of etiquette.  They save
us Moderator types a lot of gray hair trying to figure out just what
is what, and who means what.


And for everyone involved in this debate, let's lighten it up a little.


Okay, lads, we'll resume play with a scrum to the Blue team.......


frank
    

�   BTW- I don't use smiley faces. I think they're the noting equivalent of
�        canned laughter so when I say you're sick you'll have to decide for
�        yourself whether or not I mean it.
    
    Unfortunately, NOTES is not a perfect means of communication.  The
    readers do not have the normal indicators of conversation such as
    facial expressions.  You haven't been writing in the conference for
    very long, and I doubt many of the people here have met you face to
    face, so it is asking alot from them to determine whether or not you
    are kidding based on your written word.  If you choose to allow others
    to misunderstand you, stand by your policy.

>    
>     You have a point and I'll start using them although I won't
>    like it. I'm gonna feel like Isaiah Thomas or something. I've
>    never intentionally insulted anyone in here nor would I and I
>    apologize if that's what the impression I've given.


Speaking strictly from my point of view, I couldn't tell if someone
was being insulted or not.   If I had enough information to go on and
I thought the possibility didn't exist, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
But I couldn't be sure, and rather than have to deal with all kinds
of mail messages at a later point in time, I decided to say something.

Mac must've decided the same thing at the same time...


Anyway, no harm done.  If you don't want a 8^) in there, then do what
I do sometimes, which is a big ol'  "[JUST KIDDING!]" at the end....


Have fun,
'Saw

    Like WOW!!!!
    
    Back-to-back fascists!!!!!!
    
    So where's the <set hidden> dudes??????
    
    Musta been going through a power drain?????
    
    Fwap!!!!
    
    many, many ->  ;^) (don't forget the little wink there)
    
    Kev
    

Kev, 

Though you've never seen a rugby match, (that I know of) what
just occured between Mac and I is very much like what the perfect
ruck is like on the field.

Bam, you see the ball carrier go down, or the ball laying there, and
you just RUCK.  Nexted thing you know there's two or three or more of
your guys right there with you.....


Not bad, eh?  8^)

    Well, back to A&W's suggestion.... 
    
    Actually I think this sort of thing has been done before, with limited 
    success. The old NASL had it's Washington franchise consist of all the 
    better American players in the league, with the idea that by playing 
    together they would be better prepared to take on the world. The goal was 
    to qualify for the 1982 WC in Spain. It didn't happen. Players like
    Rick Davis argued that he learned more from practicing with the Cosmos
    (and Beckenbauer, Chinaglia, etc.) than he would with "Team America."
    That was the beginning of the end of the NASL. Too bad... 

    In basketball, if the US national team did something like this, they 
    would have to schedule a bunch of exhibitions (against both college & 
    pro teams), but on a "home" court somewhere with an international-size 
    setup. So much for the idea of barnstorming. Who knows, maybe in our 
    grandchildren's lifetime the NBA, NCAA and FIBA could come up with a 
    standard court size/shape of lane, so this could be done. In theory, I 
    think it's a great idea, but I don't know how practical it could be.
    
    Tom 

    A&W ain't no dude
    Dudette, dudette
    A&W ain't no dude 
    O Dudette day.

    I *just* got back in here after my note yesterday.  For the record,
    both Mac and 'Saw know me personally, and I hope they realize that I
    assumed smileys in Tom's reply.  *I'm* assuming that their action was
    more to help Tom survive against possible problems later from other
    noters, rather than me.  I don't take this conference particularly
    seriously most of the time, and I try to handle any problems between me
    and the other noter directly, rather than involve the mods.
    
    Seriously rollward on the "dudette" jingle.  Folks are asking what I'm
    laughing at.  I can understand the default assumption that I was a
    "dude", too.  Particularly in a sports-related conference, it's a
    natural.
    
    I understand what you guys are saying about the pros and their teams
    not giving up the money/time to a 6 month commit to the international
    team.  (I didn't realize that the NASL had tried and failed. 
    Interesting.)  Could it improve things any if there were blocks of time 
    used for the international team?  Sorta along the lines of a week here
    and a week there to play several games - kinda like an invitational
    tourney kind of deal?  Potential injury is one issue that I can see,
    plus the loss of a star player for several games.  
    
    A&W

Tommy....

Regardless of what A&W says about understanding, we feel that you
should know that she has several arrests but no convictions for
hideous crimes with an axe.  Just fyi....


[A big JUST KIDDING here]

8^)

'Saw

    Hmmm... Has any one ever seen A & W and Lizzie Borden in the same
    place?????
    
    REK

>    � [A big JUST KIDDING here]
>    
>    In other words, a gigantic Isiah Thomas here.  :-)
>    
>    Hawk

No, more like a big Robin Williams after he's just gone on some
improvisational flight of fancy.....

;^)    

    re: A&W 
    
    Glad to hear ya acknowledge what most already knew.  Namely, that the
    smilies were obviously implied.
    
    I like Byrdie's style.  He thorougly dominated JD in this Olympics
    hoops "debate", finally forcing the white flag.  (i.e. JD sees the
    light of day and realizes we shouldn't be sending our pros ...)
    
    I'd appreciate you sending me some p-mail (RHETT::KNORR) to let me know
    your feelings on Carolina basketball.  I could use ya over in 17!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chriss,
    
    As usual, you get things wrong.  I haven't said we shouldn't be sending
    our pros.  I've stated all along we should be sending our best.
    
    I've advocated tryouts (the American way, BTW - them 'commie' countries
    'select' athletes...), and have advocated that the hoop players should
    be treated just like the rest of America's Olympians.  Cause in my
    eyes, whether one is a Greco-Roman wrestler, a gymnast, a vollyeballer,
    a runner, an archer, a swimmer, or a HOOP player - they are all on the
    U.S. Olympic team - all equals.  
    
    What 'white flag' did he force?  The last white flag I saw was waved by
    the Tar Hell bench last March.
    
    HTH.
    
    JD

    Chris -
    
    Rather than personal mail, I'll do it in public.
    
    I basically don't care about college b-ball.  Haven't since I found it
    impossible to get to home games as a student at Purdue.  I have watched
    some of the NCAA tournament the last couple of years because of this
    conference - other than that I refuse to support what I regard as a
    blatant rip-off of the campuses while the NBA fails to support and
    develop a minor league system for developing players.
    
    So I don't have any opinions, pro or con, about Dean Smith, or Bob
    Knight, or any other college coach.  I do feel that 17 hasn't made any
    progress for about the last year, at least, and it would be a good idea
    if everyone involved could simply let it go.  Given that they won't,
    the continuing discussion has all the earmarks of being an institution
    in this file. 
    
    A&W

    re .149
    
    They DO allow for breaks in the league schedule play when international 
    soccer matches are held. Sorry to keep using soccer analogies, but that 
    seems to be the best parallel to draw. 
    
    Anyway, here it goes. For Example, every couple of months they play
    qualifying games for the 1992 Euro Championships in Sweden. The next 
    ones are at the end of October. These games are held in the middle of 
    the week, usually Wednesday nights. Usually the club teams will have 
    scheduled games the weekend before and after. Sometimes they will 
    reschedule games involving international players (If the clubs can agree 
    on a later date) for the benefit of the national team. The Italian 
    League usually cancels it's entire weekend, sicnce all the Azurri players 
    as well as a ton of foreign internationals play in the league. Since 
    only the best players play for the national side, clubs would be without 
    their most important players.
    
    The issue here is that the national teams are given priority over an
    individual country's league. In basketball, the NBA is bigger than
    life, so there's no way this could work. Maybe much later on, if the
    international emphasis continues and basketball becomes more popular
    worldwide, this might change. 
    
    RE NASL
    
    It's not that the idea of the US national team playing as a league
    franchise didn't necesarily work, it's just that the league was so 
    badly mis-managed. Also, the US team wasn't anything close to what it
    is now, and had NO chance of qualifying for the '82 WC in Spain. (They
    would lose to Haiti, Bermuda, Aruba - countries they don't even PLAY
    anymore because it would be such a romp.) Believe me, I could go on a 
    tirade about the downfall of the NASL, but the bottom line is that the 
    league itself suffered from weak leadership at the top, and big-mouthed 
    egotistical owners were able to bully the league into stupid policies 
    that led to its eventual demise. (Sorta like Zeigler's NHL, come to 
    think of it...) 
    
    Tom

re: .156

Hardly a vote of confidence, Chris.

I like the part about 17 being an institution. I've always wanted to be
in a_institution.

TTom

 Isn't it shameful how Carolina fans will suck up to anybody in effort to
 get someone outside the program to say Deanweenie isn't a choke? 

    
     In yesterday's Boston Globe sportswriter Jackie McMullan said that
    she has spoken to three different members of the committee that sel-
    ected the Olympic team, and all three had the same thought;"Frank
    Layden said what everyone was thinking."
    

    Yeah, suuuure she did. If they don't have the filberts to stand up and
    be counted, then who cares ?
    
    Isiah delivers the ball we enought ot have won two more titles than "Mr
    Unselfish". He used to hold the single-season record for assists, and
    nobody should question his on-court credentials.
    
    Fact is, the USOC may have provided the Pistons with the incentive
    needed to pass the Bulls nexted year.
    
    And Layden should stick to ridiculing himself - at least he comes off
    as knowledable ...

    So, what did folks think of Jordan snubbing the President a few weeks
    ago.  His teammates were pissed.  FWIW, I was in Chicago last week, and
    there were still a few articles in the local papers about it.  Folks
    were not happy with Air Snub.  Horace Grant was  extremely pissed.
    
    A letter in USA TOday says that Jordan's invite to represent the US
    should be rovoked...
    
    His  excuse, BTW, was that he wanted to spend more time with his
    family.
    
    The day before, however, Michael was seen at the golf course all day -
    I guess his family didn't need him that day.  The Chitown papers had a
    few examples of what Michael was doing in other days - away from the
    family.  Amazing how on the one day that he has something scheduled
    with his teammates, that he can't make it...
    
    JD

    re. Doc

 >>>    Yeah, suuuure she did. If they don't have the filberts to stand up and
 >>>   be counted, then who cares ?
    
       If your contention is that either Jackie McMullan or myself is lying
       I can assure you that neither one of us has anything to gain by doing
       so.
   
 >>>   Isiah delivers the ball we enought ot have won two more titles than "Mr
 >>>   Unselfish". He used to hold the single-season record for assists, and
 >>>   nobody should question his on-court credentials.
    
       Crediting Isaiah's passing for the two Piston championships is about
       as accurate as the revisionists who would have you believe that Bird
       won all those championships by his lonesome. And while maybe no one
       *should* question Isaiah's on court credentials, obviously someone
       is.

 >>>    Fact is, the USOC may have provided the Pistons with the incentive
 >>>   needed to pass the Bulls nexted year.
    
       Fact is the USOC didn't pick the squad and it's going to take alot
       more than just getting slighted to elevate the Pistons to Chicago's
       level.

 >>>    And Layden should stick to ridiculing himself - at least he comes off
 >>>   as knowledable ...
   
       The only point I'll concede. {insert smiley face here}
    

    I don't blame Jordan for snubbing the President.  These events are far
    more for the political benefit of the President and not for the thrill
    of the athlete.  Heck, the team gives him a jersey or a jacket or
    whatever and it goes into a museum, never to be seen again.  If an
    athlete disagrees with the President or has something better to do,
    fine, let him skip it.
    
    What I do object to is the double standard where Horace Grant
    supposedly didn't want to go and was told he had to go.
    
    John

    	Hey I don't even like golf, but if I had to choose between that
    and a meeting with His Bushness...  FORE!

 What a hoot.   People pissing and moaning because Be Like Mike didn't show
 up at the Rose Garden.
 
 There's another thread in here today about the bicameral Congress and how
 our forefathers had such wisdom to design a political system that's still
 relevant today and all that ...
 
 Think about that and think back to your history books ... Madison,
 Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and all those other immortals were unanimously
 against any kind of a royal or imperial head of state.   The office of
 President was to be occupied by a common man elected by representatives of
 the common people.
 
 Yet in many ways today's modern First Family is treated just like royalty.  
 Those ridiculous gatherings of title teams at the White House are nothing
 more than photo opps for His Bushness to "strut his chest".    Nothing of
 substance is ever accomplished at one of those things.  He's got closets
 full of different winning teams' jerseys with "BUSH" and "1" on the back.
 Lots of photos, oodles of schmoozing, sound bites, the whole thing ...
 
 100% USDA Grade A Perception Management.    Our forefathers had hoped to
 prevent this.   Sorry to say that they didn't do it.    
 
 I'm actually glad that Be Like didn't go.   It was for Bush's benefit, not
 his.   If Grant was forced to go, he's got a legit gripe, too.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Bob -
    
    To tell the troof - i think the sessions with the President are
    useless.
    
    I am amazed - totally - in the power of 'Be Like Mike'.  I have no
    doubts that he could kill someone and no one would point a finger at
    him.  Imagine the uproar of 'lack of class' is say, Isiah Thomas, Bill
    Laimbeer, or Dennis Rodman had snubbed El Presidente.
    
    In the last year, we've had Mike do some character assassination, some
    whining, and some snubbing, with nary a mark against his Madison Avenue
    Hide....
    
    JD

    x = 20 X "Beat Dead Horse"
    Print X
    
    	Actually I think the Problem here is that IT WAS JORDAN who 
    	skipped out.  If it had been say scott Williams would anyone
    	in this notes file be bitching about it ????
    
    Jordan is not perfect, on or off the court.  But he tries damn hard
    at everything he does !!!
    							M_Air_Brooks

    Tommy -
    
    Re-read my note.  I said I don't really care about the Prez welcoming
    sports teams.
    
    However, his *teammates* and *coaches* aren't too pleased with
    Michael's snub.  And it isn't for the snub, per se, it is for the
    double standard.  Horace Grant, as it has been noted, requested not to
    have to go.  He was told he had too.  In the Chicago paper, it said
    that all players had to go.  Jordan wasn't the only guy who would have
    liked to spend time with his family (but as the Chicago papers also
    pointed out, Mr. Jordan has had ample opportunity to spend time with
    his family and hasn't - and this was a scheduled event - they didn't
    just decide to go at the last minute....)  So his teammates, esp.
    Grant, are pissed, because they feel it wasn't a 'team' thing to do.
    
    And you just reinforce the double standard.  Isiah Thomas gets vilified
    for smiling.  Other players get torn down for acting 'classless'. 
    Michael gets cheered and praised for doing such things.  
    
    And if Michael can handle all the positive publicity he gets - he, and
    his fans, should be able to handle the negative publicity.  
    
    Do I dislike Jordan?  Nope. Don't know him personally.  Seems like a
    nice guy.  One hell of a hoops player, that's for sure.
    
    Do I dislike the pedastal his fans have built for him?  Yep.  I hate
    fans who make athletes out to be perfect gods or beings.  Right now,
    Jordan's fans are the worst at this.  
    
    As for you and I agreeing - big deal.  I'm almost positive I could say
    that this month is October - and you'd find something wrong with it!
    
    You have no problems dredging up the Isiah/bird incident - even though
    Bird pushed it aside.  Jordan's teammates - as of last Sunday - hadn't
    pushed this issue aside.  It really is about being a good teammate. 
    The visiting the Useless One in the White House is really secondary.
    
    JD

    One more thing - you call it an 'alledged snub"  - there was nothing
    alledged about it.  It happened.  It's documented.  There are tens of
    witnesses.  Nothing alledged about it at all.
    
    You also mentioned the Olympic thing.  It really is too bad that
    Michael couldn't have said "No, I don't want to play" and been able to
    - instead of being 'forced' to accept due to pressure.  But Mr. Jordan
    has no one to blame for himself.  He's whole-heartedly and without
    hesitation flown into the hearts of the public with a perfectly slick
    madison avenue crafted image.  Not being able to enjoy as private a
    life as he might like is something he freely gave up for more bucks.
    Other superstars are less in the public eye (Larry Bird a perfect
    example - even in his best years when he was the best player on the
    planet - he was not thrust upon the public psyche as Air Jordan has
    been).
    
    Michael made the decision which road to superstardom he wanted to
    travel.  He has to pay the consequences.
    
    JD

I agree with JD, Mikey made his own bed, now he has to sleep in it.
The guy is all over the tube and in the magazines and every cereal
aisle in the country! I'm sorry but Mr. Jordan should've burned one
day on the course to go see the prez with his team. I wonder what the
folks at Coca-Cola, Gator-Ade, Nike, and General Mills thought about this.
I mean this is THE PRESIDENT we are talking about here. Granted Mike has
every right as an individual not to go, but IMHO, he used poor judgement
not to go.



Steve

    Again, I agree with Jordan on not going to see the President but
    disagree with the double standard being applied.  These visits to the
    White House by teams are yet another example of athletes being used by
    politicians and I applaud Jordan for not going for that reason.  I
    would love to see a team (either its players or management) have the
    cojones to turn down a White House invitation.
    
    To the folks in the White House, these events are nothing special.  One
    White House staffer was quoted as saying "We've had so many teams go
    through here this past year we quite frankly can't remember them all." 
    I'm not sure how the WH operates but in the Massachusetts State House,
    there are two adjacent rooms used for these ceremonial "grip and grin"
    events.  Governor Weld walks into one room and visits with a group for
    15 minutes while another group is being prepped in the next room.  He
    leaves room A and goes into room B, while the group in room A leaves
    and is replaced by another one.
    
    Again, these are programmed political events and I'm absolutely happy
    that Jordan didn't go.  I'm not happy that Grant had to go when he
    didn't want to.
    
    John

John, do you think this had any impact on the many youths who may
wonder why Mike snubbed the president of the U.S.A. After all 
isn't the main marketing goal advertiser's seek to exploit from
Jordan, one that makes him out to be All-American?? Now you and
I may not give a rats ass about these idiotic visits, but what
about the youth of america? What are they to make of this?



Steve

    I don't care what the Youth of America think of Jordan not making the
    visit.  It will have a negative effect on children who see it as "I'm
    Michael Jordan, I can do whatever I want."  If you've read my notes
    about similar issues over the years, I believe that children should be
    taught their heroes are human beings and so on.  I also believe that
    children should be taught that no one, including the President of the
    US, is necessarily worthy of being worshipped just by virtue of the
    position.  I also believe that parents should be able to teach their
    children just what these visits are and why they are happening.  I also
    realize that not all children will be taught this information.
    
    I'll admit that my stand on this issue is probably not popular and I
    see the negative side of it too, but remember, I've always said that
    athletes should not be role models just because they're athletes, that
    they have no higher responsibility to behave in a certain way (ie, stay
    off drugs) than any other member of society, that they shouldn't be
    drug tested (except for steroids or other performance enhancers) and
    above all, should not be used for political purposes.  I realize I'm
    probably splitting hairs but the objection I have to Jordan's not
    making the trip to the White House isn't that he didn't go but that
    Horace Grant wasn't allowed to bag it to.  If I criticized Jordan for
    not going then I would be inconsistent with other beliefs I have.
    
    As far as the advertisers go - if they don't like what Michael Jordan
    did, then fire him!  He's an adult - he can take the consequences for
    his actions, which is something our society as a whole is unwilling to
    do today.  The watchword is "it's not my fault, it's someone else's."
    
    John

�    there are two adjacent rooms used for these ceremonial "grip and grin"
�    events.

	Geez, if PeeWee had one of these rooms he might not be in such 
legal hot water.  But seriously, kudos on note .176  

				/Don

 Re .171    

 >>>    However, his *teammates* and *coaches* aren't too pleased with
 >>>   Michael's snub.  And it isn't for the snub, per se, it is for the
 >>>   double standard.  Horace Grant, as it has been noted, requested not to
 >>>   have to go.  He was told he had too.  In the Chicago paper, it said
 >>>   that all players had to go.  Jordan wasn't the only guy who would have
 >>>   liked to spend time with his family (but as the Chicago papers also
 >>>   pointed out, Mr. Jordan has had ample opportunity to spend time with
 >>>   his family and hasn't - and this was a scheduled event - they didn't
 >>>   just decide to go at the last minute....)  So his teammates, esp.
 >>>   Grant, are pissed, because they feel it wasn't a 'team' thing to do.
    
       Teammate(s)? Coach(es)? The only one I've heard complain is Grant
       and as I said before his beef should be with management.

 >>>   And you just reinforce the double standard.  Isiah Thomas gets vilified
 >>>   for smiling.  Other players get torn down for acting 'classless'. 
 >>>   Michael gets cheered and praised for doing such things.  
    
       I never villified Isaiah for simply smiling. I don't like his phony 
       attitude.

 >>>   And if Michael can handle all the positive publicity he gets - he, and
 >>>   his fans, should be able to handle the negative publicity.  
    
       So far in this conference a whopping two people care. Not exactly an
       outraged public. And as John Hendry said, if advertisers don't like
       his act fire him.
     
 >>>   Do I dislike the pedastal his fans have built for him?  Yep.  I hate
 >>>   fans who make athletes out to be perfect gods or beings.  Right now,
 >>>   Jordan's fans are the worst at this.  
    
       So basically your problem isn't that the emperor has no clothes. It's
       that everyone else loves what he's wearing. Makes perfect sense.

 >>>    As for you and I agreeing - big deal.  I'm almost positive I could say
 >>>   that this month is October - and you'd find something wrong with it!
    
       That first line seems a bit harsh, JD. I don't respond to everything
       you write in this notes conference and you were the one who went off
       about women's road races in response to one of my notes. Furthermore
       if you didn't think it was such a big deal why'd you bother to write
       two notes in response ? 


 
    

 When George Bush holds a Rose Garden "grip and grin" ceremony for every
 kid in this country who scores a perfect 1600 on their SAT's, then I will
 applaud the man for recognizing true accomplishment and true worth.
 
 Not holding my breath, though ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    As far as what I'd tell a kid, I'd say "The president is a man. 
    Period.  He was elected to do certain functions, one of which is NOT to
    become an official greeter.  When these visits were few and far
    between, they were somewhat special.  However, they are now an everyday
    event.  So what's so special about them anymore?"
    
    I'd also tell them that I'd much prefer the president to be working on
    unemployment, and the economy, and Aids and other national problems.
    
    Now, if someone *REALLY* important came along, say like the World
    Horseshoe Champ, then that would be different!  :*)
    
    Lee

    First,
    
    I agree with Ninj on most of his notes.  The double standard is what
    irked me the most.  ALl I've ever heard about Air is what a wonderful
    person he is, what a wonderful teammate he is, etc... And this seems to
    go against that.
    
    Tommy -
    
    I read and heard a lot of negative talk about Air while I was in
    Chicago.  And believe me, the man is GOD in that town.  folks were
    disappointed in him.  And from what I read, it was more than just
    Horace Grant.  
    
    Of course, I'm sure the Boston-area media has more insight to this then
    the Chicago-area media.
    
    There was supposed to be a smiley at the end of the October line...mea
    culpa.
    
    Re Isiah - so you know he's a phony?  How - by what you've read and
    heard (I assume you don't know him personally...)  So, you can believe
    everything negative you've heard about Isiah, but you can't accept that
    folks are p.o.'ed at Air Jordan??
    
    Hmmm.
    
    JD

    
    
    re .181
    
 >>>   I agree with Ninj on most of his notes.  The double standard is what
 >>>   irked me the most.  ALl I've ever heard about Air is what a wonderful
 >>>   person he is, what a wonderful teammate he is, etc... And this seems to
 >>>   go against that.
            
       You've been bashing Jordan for months (see note 159) but for what-
       ever reason you just don't seem to be able to come out in the open 
       about it. So you use red herrings like this Prez non-issue. 
   
 >>>    I read and heard a lot of negative talk about Air while I was in
 >>>   Chicago.  And believe me, the man is GOD in that town.  folks were
 >>>   disappointed in him.  And from what I read, it was more than just
 >>>   Horace Grant.  
       
       If people hold an athlete up as a God they're setting *themselves*
       up to be disappointed.
    
 >>>   Of course, I'm sure the Boston-area media has more insight to this then
 >>>   the Chicago-area media.
    
       Frankly, no one here in Boston and I'm sure no one in most of the
       rest of the free world cares. It hasn't been in the papers except 
       for the day after it happened and even then only a snippet. If it's 
       an issue at all in Chicago it's probably only to sell newspapers.

 >>>   There was supposed to be a smiley at the end of the October line...mea
 >>>   culpa.
    
       No problem
       
 >>>   Re Isiah - so you know he's a phony?  How - by what you've read and
 >>>   heard (I assume you don't know him personally...)  So, you can believe
 >>>   everything negative you've heard about Isiah, but you can't accept that
 >>>   folks are p.o.'ed at Air Jordan??
    
       I've said all I have to say about Isaiah elsewhere in this notesfile.
       And I never said I couldn't accept that people are pissed at Jordan 
       just that the only one who's openly criticized him was Grant and yet
       you keep using plurals when descibing the supposed outcry over this 
       alleged snubbing. Bottom line, it's a non-issue.
    

    
    Re .182
    
    I've hear/read about the Jordan 'incident' in the Seattle papers, the
    Chicago papers, USA Today and seen it on national TV outlets.  TO say
    it was a non-issue is  not totally true.
    
    So be it.
    
    My views on Jordan are well known.  I have no problems with Jordan. 
    Just as I have had no problems with guys like Larry Bird and Cam Neely
    in the past.  I do have problems with *fans* who hold certain athletes
    up as Gods.  Athletes who whore up to every endorsement and TV camera
    to get multiple exposure - and then whine about their lack of privacy.
    Athletes who whine about other teams and players.   
    
    
    And I like to speculate what would have happened if one of the *hated*
    athletes had done something one of the *GOD* athletes had done. 
    Usually, the hated athlete is decried as 'classless', while the GOD
    athlete's actions are brushed off as a *non-issue*....
    
    JD

    
    
    re .182        
    
> >>>   Chicago.  And believe me, the man is GOD in that town.  folks were
> >>>   disappointed in him.  And from what I read, it was more than just
> >>>   Horace Grant.  
       
>       If people hold an athlete up as a God they're setting *themselves*
>       up to be disappointed.
    
    That's the problem. People *DO* hold athletes up as "Gods" and either
    feel let down or gloat should they stumble. Like it or not, that's the
    price these guys pay for all the perks. Michael Jordan will never be
    able to go out to a restaurant without being hounded. Call it Faust's
    (not the ex ND coach!) deal with the Devil...
    
    I remember a big deal was made when Doug Flutie made an appearance at a 
    pro-Reagan rally in Boston in 1984. Flutie was going on about economic 
    recovery being soley due to Reagan's policies, etc. Well, Doug has read 
    a lot more zone defenses than books on economic theory, I'll guarantee 
    that. Sure, he can say what he wants as a private citizen, but all of a 
    sudden athletes are to be consulted about something well beyond their 
    area of expertise? Would they have cared what just ANY college senior 
    would have had to say on the subject. Flutie was a pawn for Reagan,
    just as any team that wins something is for the White House. 
    
    I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I would venture a 
    guess that Jordan's views on society in general would be somewhat 
    different than Bush's. Jordan is freinds with Spike Lee and has been
    photographed wearing a "40 Acres and a Mule" T-shirt and baseball cap.
    
    Oh yeah, I agree, it's Bulls management that should be criticized if
    there was a double standard, not Jordan.  
    
    Tom

    Like Stated in other notes, there's only a couple people in this entire
    notes file that keep bringing this up....Want to guess what team they
    dont support.  As for who has a problem with it as far as I can tell
    its just grant ? No big deal.  If management made grant go he has every
    right to be pissed off at THe Ruler of Guam, becuase he has as much to
    do with it as jordan :-).... I dont see why grant had to Mouth Off at
    jordan over something he did not decide.
    
    As for making his bed and sleeping in it the reason he went with Gator
    rade was they are not demanding as much time from him as other sponsers
    wanted.  Your talking about a person who loves 3 things, basketball,
    golf and his family.  Now us DECCIES proberbly cannot understand this
    inless of course everyone in here TRUELY LOVES there job(s).
    
    Lastly I bet if the Average sports noter (jd) had a choice of either
    attending a game of his favorite team or meeting Mike Dukakis hed snub
    Mikey. :-)
    
    							M_a_Brooks

 Hell, I'd snub the Duke to go running in the rain...and I voted for him
 too..now if I had a chance to meet Bush, I think I'd rather be Rosanne
 Barr's loveslave for a night....

 ;^)

    See Brooksie, you just don't get it.  I don't dislike Mike Jordan. 
    Never said I did.  Never said I didn't like him as a player.  He's the
    best guard in the world right now, no question.  
    
    And I've stated in here that the issue wasn't seeing the President.  I
    wish our "education, environment, and economy (HA!)" President would
    spend more time doing something constructive then shaking team's hands
    and taking vacation in Maine.
    
    I just have never bought the marketing angle of "Air" Jordan.  You
    have, hook line and sinker.  ANd so have others.  And you can't
    stomach even one modicum of criticism, no matter how slight, against
    your hero.  I didn't write any of the articles in the Chicago papers,
    nor was I on any of the local TV stations.  OF course, in your eyes
    (and T.B's, this is only my issue).  And typically, you blame Horace
    Grant, and not Air.  SImply Amazing...
    
    JD

    Ha ha, nice "P" name there, JD.  :*)
    
    Lee

    I guess I just dont understand how you can blame Jordan for something
    the Management Decided.  I Guess you think that Jordan basically runs
    the team.  But in case you dont realize it no matter how good you are
    you can only push your luck so far before management dumps you (trade)
    Can you imagine what they would want for JORDAN. (Never Happen).
    
    I dont Praise Jordan I dont worship Him I just stick up for him when
    people make totally one sided comments for no other reason then to
    bitch about him.  Hes a great basketball player and just like any other
    person in the world he is marketing himself to protect his and his
    families future.....  Bottom Line is he has to make his money now to
    live the rest of his life.  I for the life of me just cant understand
    what the real issue is here and how Jordan name seems to be the one
    that keeps coming up.  Now if you would just admit that this was a
    management problem/mistake/dbl standard and had nothing to do with
    jordan then fine.
    
    I keep hearing about others that skipped the White House Trip from
    other sports but yet dont recall the media making big deals about it.
    
    Like others had brought up that if Isiah or Lambrain had done this 
    there would be an uproar.  If your team #1 guy had skipped out on
    it for personal reasons would it be an issue to you ?  I dont care
    if jordan skipped it to wipe his but if he didnt want to go he should
    have the choice and nobody not even the high and MIghty JD should be
    able to judge him.
    
    My last note on this topic... YOu  can read JD's replies coming up
    shortly :-)
    								MaB

    Brooksie -
    
    But as I said - it isn't me.  I simply repeated the news that I read in
    Chicago (you know, the city in Illinois, where the Bulls play).  Now I
    thought since it seems to be an issue there, that SPORTS folks might
    have opinions.  Obviously, since its Michael, and not say, isiah, it
    isn't an issue.
    
    For what its worth - management was not happy with Michael - but Mike
    isn't a dummy - he CAN do whatever he wants.  They arent' going to get
    rid of him - he's the franchise.  That's it.  
    
    And Air - if you read the notes, you'd know why the folks in Chicago
    were mad at Michael.  It wasn't me.  That's why I didn't comment about
    it after it happened.  Since Michael is of such an interest to some
    folks in here - especially you, I figured you'd love to know the story.
    
    What folks were mad about was what they felt was a lame excuse - since
    he's had ample time to spend with his family, and instead has been off
    persuing other things.  Which is fine.  He can do whatever he wants
    with his time.  What they were mad at (not me - understand the
    difference between THEM and ME???) was that despite his knowing months
    in advance about this committment with his teammates to be at the White
    House - he blew them off cause he didnt' want to do it.
    
    Michael is big in Chicago.  Bigger than Larry Bird ever was in Boston.
    Bigger than Roger Clemens is in Boston.   And since Jordan is used to
    'sell' the city - folks didn't like the image.  The BIG TIME DIE HARD 
    Bulls fans that I were with were ALL openly critical of Jordan.
    
    So, you can reject all of that - but don't take it up with me.  And
    don't blame me.  I had nothing to do with any of it.  I'm the
    messenger, don't shoot me.
    
    Ta-Ta.
    
    JD

    And, I'm not upset with Jordan either.  I'm upset at Bulls management
    about the double standard being applied to Jordan and Grant over this
    issue.  I support Jordan for not going to see the President.
    
    John

      Thanks for reporting on this burning issue, JD. Mankind will be 
      forever grateful. You deserve some kind of an award. Now can we 
      bury this dead horse ? This is starting to make that Dean Smith 
      thing look like the Nixon-Kennedy debates.
 
    

    	Here!  Here! ::BYRDIE  The Lincoln/Douglas debates this ain't

    re .194
    
    You're entirely welcom, TB.  I will forever know that MJ is a taboo
    subject.  Unless praising him. ALso, if you want, I can clear 'issues'
    through you before entering - so that you can decide their worth.
    
    Ta-Ta.
    
    JD

    
    JD, perhaps that was a bit inflammatory. My point is this, this 
    whole "Jordan is or isn't a jerk" issue is beginning to sound
    like the Dean Smith thing only with you in the role of ACC Chris
    (no offence Chris). You're both intractable so it doesn't make any 
    sense to go on and on about it because it's not going to accomplish
    anything. 
    
    If you still want to clear all of your notes through me I'd be more
    than willing to look them over. [insert smiley face here]

    Tommy -
    
    The thing is, I don't think Michael Jordan is a jerk.  And I've never
    said he was.
    
    Overall, I never had an issue with him not seeing the President - at
    face value.  I did think that his snub was in direct contradiction to
    the image that he portrays, and it was something that many of the folks
    in the town he plays in took exception too.  
    
    That was it.  No one gets more praise than Air Jordan.  But with praise
    oft times comes criticism.  
    
    No biggie.  I always have fun when brooksie comes to Air's defense
    anyway...
    
    Veteran noters would have noticed that it was the same tact as I used
    with Larry Bird, though I'll admit the Bird fans were more fun to
    banter with than Brooksie is.
    
    Have a good weekend - the Series is on, footballs are flying, and I
    don't know the forecast out their, but it is going to pretty nice out
    here.
    
    JD

JD: serious noter or Chris Knorr clone?

If you think JD's for real, call 1-900-NOCHRIS.

If you think JD's gone the way of Slasher, call 1-900-HELP4JD

TTom

 
 
	PARIS (UPI) -- Magic Johnson scored 16 points and handed out 17
       assists and the Los Angeles Lakers held off Joventut Badalona of 
       Spain 116-114 to win the McDonalds Open Basketball Tournament in 
       Paris.
	It was the closest a European team has come to beating an NBA team
       since the start of the tournament in 1987.
	The Lakers looked like they would win easily, as they held a 61-42
       lead midway through the second period. But Badalona closed to within
       114-112 with 2:10 remaining in the contest, before Johnson's layup with
       1:48 remaining gave the Lakers the winning margin.
	Byron Scott and James Worthy contributed 22 points apiece to the
       Lakers attack. Jordi Villacampa paced Badalona with 23 points.
    

  
     Scotty Pippen put another nail in the coffin of Isaiah Thomas'
    Olympic hopes when Pippen flat out stated that he would not play
    in the Olympics if Isaiah were on the team. Pippen called Isaiah
    a "cheap shot artist" after Tuesday night's Bulls-Pistons game which
    was marred by a tussle between Laimbeer and Grant and also by 
    Thomas shoving Pippen to the back. I was watching the game and quite
    frankly, I was shocked and a little disappointed in Isaiah.

    I've had enough of primadonnas and If Pippen doesn't play, then he
    should stay home.
    
    Dennis
    

    So, thin, IMO, neither Isiah or Pippen should play.  The players are
    'supposed' to be playing for the U.S.A. - and NOT themselves, right? 
    So they should damn well take the honor of wearing the red, white, and
    blue jersey and play with anyone else that is named to the team.  Just
    who the hell does Scottie Pippen think he is?  Does he think the US
    couldn't win without his whiney self-centered ego prancing around the
    court?  Sh*t, name someone who will play the frigging game - no matter
    who the teammates...
    
    This whining by Bulls' players is getting tiring...
    
    JD

     Well by golly, I watched that game the other night and like
    I said earlier I was shocked and am still barely over it. I 
    never respected Isaiah anyways but after last year's playoff 
    loss when the Pistons, led by the smiling thug, walked off the
    court without shaking the hands of the Bulls in what was the 
    worst display of poor sportsmanship it's ever been my misfortune 
    to witness and after Tuesday night's cheapest of cheap shots,
    I don't blame Pippen one iota.  Scotty never said he wouldn't be 
    honored to represent the USA or that the US couldn't win without 
    him. I think he's just trying to prevent this country from being 
    disgraced by Isaiah if Isaiah should absent-mindedly let his cher-
    ubic facade drop and cheap shot some poor kid in front of the world. 
    Thank you, Scotty. 
    
    

    I agree, Tommy.
    
    lEe

    The Bulls_Pistons series has long been marked by cheap-shotting by both
    sides, and some of it doesn't take place in camera range. Not to
    mention an inordinate amount of trash-talking by both sides. 
    
    FWIW who CARES what Pippen says ? For my money, I'd rather had seen
    Clyde Drexler on the team anyhow ... Pippen is no friggin choirboy, and
    I won't pass judgement unless I see the whole game, because refs and TV
    always catch the *2nd* shot, not the first.
    
    Doc

    So, I gots a question to axe all of you 'Olympic Policeman' that want
    to make sure Isiah don't go as to not do something rash.   Shouldn't we
    JUDGE all the players on the team the same way?
    
    What about Larry Bird - suppose on the Gold Medal stand he says
    something like "Yugoslavia east SH*T!" - that's pretty bad.  Perhaps
    HE should be banned.
    
    Suppose Charles Barkley spits on some spectators at courtside?  Suppose
    he GETS IN A FIGHT?  Suppose he does any of the things he does in the
    NBA that get him fined and suspended?  Shouldn't he get banned - using
    the "Isiah" rule?
    
    How about Patrick Ewing?  Suppose he FIGHTS during the Olympics?  BAN
    HIM!
    
    Chris Mullin?  The guy was treated for dependency!!! Not a good guy to
    have represent this country!  Isiah him!
    
    ETC.. So Lee, Tommy, etc - is it just Isiah, or do your guys high and
    mighty attitudes extend to everyone on the team?   Or are you guys just
    a bunch of biased hypocrites?
    
    JD (Who's seen poor ol' Scottie Pippen push guys  from behind during
    games...should HE be banned???)
    

    I agree with JD.  It's not Pippen's place to decide who's on the team,
    it's the committee's decision.  He should show up and play.  If he says
    no for that reason, so be it.  Why not say "let's win it for Magic"
    or something like that?
    
    I honestly didn't see what caused Thomas to go nuts.  I looked for it.
    Hope the team turns out to be team players and not a bunch of egos.

I think we should find five short, slow, cain't jump white guys
and send them.

Then we wouldn't have to listen to all the whining about who's going,
who's not going, who's got a_ego, who's gettin' more from Gatorade,
who's got a woodie, who doesn't, who eats shit who doesn't.

Of course, the five short slow cain't jump white guys would probably
lose to Rumania in the firsted round, but that's okay, who gives
a hoo-hah about the Olypics in the first place...  I prefer the Cascades
myself....


'Saw

   You're right, JD. None of them bums should go. Hey, I've got an idea
   let's send the kids !!!

   But seriously....

   JD, I ain't been a notin' here for nary a year and I knows where all a 
   yur buttons r already. All have to do is mention Jordan and there you 
   go with your "HE AIN'T GOD !!!" spiel. Or I rag on sweetie pie "I-say-
   ya-know-anyone-more-sickening?" Thomas and here you come to his defense. 
   Relax, you're too predictable. I was just having you at it.

   [isfh](tm)

 
    

      This is starting to sound like a hockey game;^)

    > I think we should find five short, slow, cain't jump white guys and
    > send them.
    
    Sounds good 'Saw, where do I sign up?  :-)
    
    
    py

>    Sounds good 'Saw, where do I sign up?  :-)
    
Paul, when I find out I'll tell ya!

I just wanna do the Magic Circle like the Harlem Globetrotters were
doing on SNL before Sweetriver Baines joined them....  You know, bounce
passes, chest passes...


8^)
    

    Again, all the more reason not to "pick" the team. Let Drexler, Thomas,
    Pippen, etc. all TRY OUT and see who EARNS his spot. Now that it looks
    like Magic won't play, who is gong to find his replacement? S'pose one
    of the selected players gets injured and can't play? I cain't believe
    they've already selected the team without them ever playing together.
    
    Tom 

    Tyrouts?   What a concept........   

    Tommy -
    
    But the same is true for you.  When I heard of the Bulls/Pistons game -
    I *knew* you'd be in here using it as another reason not to sen Isiah.
    
    And if you think I take this at all seriously, then you don't know me.
    
    Actually, my 'anti-Jordan' stuff started in response to Air_Brooks
    inane babbling about Michael and the Bulls lasted year.  Before that,
    the only time I mentioned Jordan was either in awe, or in reference to
    North Carolina.  I thought the anit-Jordan stuff was pretty obvious as
    to why I did it.  
    
    As for Isiah - hey, I only defend him cuz he seems to be everyone's
    kicking bag lately - from Michael God himself, to Scootie, to Frankie
    LoserLayden to you and the proper etiquette crowd ;-)
    
    JD

    
>    As for Isiah - hey, I only defend him cuz he seems to be everyone's
>    kicking bag lately - from Michael God himself, to Scootie, to Frankie
>    LoserLayden to you and the proper etiquette crowd ;-)
     
    JD, how dare you worship at the temple of false idols!  You know
    there's only One True Kicking Bag-- Roger Clemens!  Not too but
    thee Sy Jungs!
    
    glenn
    

    
    re .220
    
    I knew you were going to say that.

    
    re .223
    
    I saw that one comin' a mile way.
    
    [isfh]

>           <<< CAM::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
>               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
>================================================================================
>Note 195.212                 1992 Olympic Basketball                  212 of 223
>COMET::JACKSONTA "You forgot the Violin again!!"       1 line  14-NOV-1991 12:52
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      This is starting to sound like a hockey game;^)
						     ^
    					  	     |
    						     |
    
    	I just want to point out the importance of this note.
    	For the first time ever in his entire sports noting
    	career, one Tim Jackson put in a smiley face correctly.
    	Although he didn't leave a space between the last word
    	and the SF, we'll cut him some slack.
    
    	Congrats Tim.  ;^)
    
    	Claybroon_Chief_of_the_SmileyFace_Police													
    

    If the Olympic committee wants to bypass the tryout method (for valid
    reason already presented in this note), yet still take the best, most
    committed players - why not just take the 1st two All-NBA teams.  Take
    the most recent selections - 2 (or 3) players per position.
    
    If I remember right, the all-stars are voted on by the players.  In any
    case, this *should* be a less subjective way of selecting the best
    players.  If nothing else it would cut MacDonalds etc-all out of the
    loop.  It might even elimate some of this bickering and politicing.
    
    Scott

    Scott, sounds good to me.  Maybe the selection method does need a
    change.
    
    I'll go along with any reasonable method that may be developed, as long
    as Isiah isn't picked.
    
    lEe
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    :*)

 JD way back, the big difference between what Larry, Charles, etc did and
 Isiah is that those were one time instances. They have shown that they
 learnt from their mistakes.

 Now let's look at Zeke, he reveled in the Bad Boy image until going to the
 White House, he has attacked Mahorn, now Pippen, he even gave his bestest
 buddy Magic a shot one time. He's been involved in other fights as well.
 He let his guard down on the Bird thing and got bailed out. His supposed
 Jordan snubbing at All-Stars..etc. The man has a record of being two-faced.
 Like Tommy said why take a chance on him disgracing us when there are clearly
 better choices out there?

 Glenn NO WAY!! Roger is my own personal kicking bag and I ain't share him. 
 ;^)

 Please Doc give me a break will ya. Drexler's a good player but Pippen
 is much more talent. Much Much more...

 mike

    Mike -
    
    My favorite player is Charles Barkley.  But his instances are not
    one-time affairs, as you alledge.  Charles was the most heavily fined
    player last year, and has been right up there every year.  I assume
    that if Charles wore a Pistons uniform, and did everything *exactly*
    the same - he'd be universally hated.  
    
    As for Pippen - as I've said, I've watched Scotty give his share of
    shoves and little cheapies - and then whine to the refs.  He did it
    with flair lasted year.   He's no angel.
    
    I'm for tryouts.  I'm not for spoiled brat whiney a**es like Scottie
    Pippen declaring who should be on the team or who he'll play for. 
    Without Michael, Scottie be another player on another team putting up
    decent numbers.  ANd no one would care what the hell he said.
    
    Heck, Ewing (another Fav from my favorite team) was in another fight
    the other night.  That's not his first either.  But since he's not on
    the PIstons, or Isiah, he's okay to play for the US?
    
    C'mon...
    
    JD

        The problem I have with Isaiah is the duplicitous nature of his
        actions. On the one hand he plays the happy little gnome with a
        child-like enthusiasm for the game. Then I see the cheap shots 
        the poor sportsmanship, the Bird incident and the starting fights
        and smiling his way out of it and I can only conclude that he's 
        either the biggest phony that ever lived or a schizo. His playing
        with the Pistons has nothing to do with it. I like the rest of the
        Pistons, including Laimbeer, because at least they don't try to pass
        themselves of as something they aren't.

        As an aside, awhile ago Dick Schaap was on the 'Sports Reporters' 
       on ESPN and he was saying how he had asked different players at the
       NBA All-Star game what they'd be doing if they weren't playing pro
       ball. Magic gave an honest, realistic answer and said he'd be back
       home in Michigan working on an automobile assembly line just like his
       dad is. Isaiah said he'd probably be a U.S. senator. Yeah, OK Isaiah.
       And if I weren't working here at DEC today, I'd probably be in a
       mansion having Suzanne Sommers buck nekkid demonstrating the Thigh-
       master for me. Get real.
    

    Well, Isiah did get his college degree, by going back to school for
    several years during the off-season. He strikes me as being intellgent,
    articulate, and (for the most part) personable. I think his major was
    pre-law.
    
    Men have won office with a lot less.
    
    What is your problem with that ? Or should he fit your stereotype ?
    
    Doc

    ... oh yeah, if all you and Suzanne are doing is the Stairmaster, you
    need to be slapped upside da heiad ... :-)

    re .232 and .233   

    It's not about stereotypes. The odds of anyone becoming a senator 
    are 2,000,000 to 1. Furthermore, there hasn't been a black senator
    since Ed Brooke although there have been several eminently qualified
    candidates who are far more articulate, personable and intelligent than
    Isaiah.  So you tell me, what are the chances that if he wasn't playing 
    in the NBA he'd be a U.S. Senator ? 
    
     If he had said that if he wasn't  playing basketball he'd own his 
    own company or be a lawyer, I'd say 'Yeah, that's within the realm of 
    possibilty' but a senator ? He stands a better chance of winning the 
    Betty Crocker Bake Off.
   

     Your second note is one the problems I have with smiley faces.
    People think they can call you a f.a. as long as they put a smiley 
    face in there.
   
    
    

    What ? Are you saying that I ws serious about .233 ?
    
    Come on ....

    Since you watch the Sports Reporters, what did you think about the
    "Parting Shot" about Pippen's attitude?
    
    Let's see, US Senator odds 2,000,000:1.  What's the odds of being
    an NBA All-star in the past 10 years?  Say 250,000,000:100?  Or
    around 2.5 million to 1?  Could probably add to that since you've
    got guys from Lithuania, Nigeria, Bahamas, and Yugoslavia competing
    for that too.  It's all relative and how much determination you have.

    I loved it. Pippen needs a reality check big time. And like I said
    before, if he wants to stay home - don't let the doorknob hit him on
    the way out ....

    For those of us who missed it - could you post (or mail me) what they
    said about poor, misunderstood Scottie.  
    
    JorDan (wif my tongue hanging down..)  ;-{>___
                                               ^^^
                                               tongue..
    
    

    No matter how much determination you have, you need lotsa, lotsa,
    LOTSA dough to become a US Senator.
    
    How 'bout this for an Olympic team?
    
    PG - KJ, Hardaway
    SG - Drexler, R Lewis, R Miller
    SF - Rodman, D Wilkins
    PF - Kemp, McHale, Laettner
    C  - O'Neal, Daugherty
    
    That could be USA's second team - give the first team some competition!
    
    NAZZ

    Basically JD, that Pippen should realize it's an honor to be named
    on the team, that rowers, divers, lugers, etc. worked all their
    life to have the opportunity and that he should go out and do what
    he can for his country, rather than acting like a crybaby.  Anything
    less would be a slap in the face to the other athletes.

    Walt, are you saying that Pippen didn't work hard all of his life to
    get to where he is today?

    It's an honor for Pippen, not the olympics...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    I'm saying that when he puts up the kind of career stats that other
    people on the team have (not 1 or 2 years), then he may have the
    right to pop off about it.  I agree with Chip, it's an honor for
    Scottie, something he shouldn't take lightly.
    
    So, does the Olympic committee have to deal with the egos of Barkley,
    Malone and Jordan after this past weekend?

    watching the Michigan Duke game a couple weeks ago, the announcers
    mentioned that Christian Laettner was USA Basketball's player of the
    year last year, and he has a good shot of making the Olympic team...
    
    say it isn't so. This guy is the most obnoxious no class player I have
    ever seen. He reminds me of Ted Knight's nephew in Caddyshack, only
    taller. And he doesn't deserve it based on his basketball talents
    either, Webber outplayed him in that game. Especially if they only pick
    one college player, I really hope its not him. I'd have a hard time
    cheering for any team with him on it, I found myself rooting for the
    Russians when they played Duke.
    
    Has anyone else heard any rumors as to who they might pick from the non
    pro ranks? I'm sure ONeal has a good chance as well. Jimmy Jackson was
    the best player on the Pan Am team.
    
    I still believe a well coached non profesional American team could 
    bring back the gold. I think the biggest obstacle to overcome is 
    lack of playing time together. But if you gave Bobby Knight or Roy
    Williams an All American team and six months to prepare, I think they
    could do it. The problem is, the NCAA teams don't even consider giving
    up one season for the Olympics. Perhaps they could do something like
    Hockey. Let the players go for 6 months/1 year and play together
    against various pro-college teams. They'd miss out on a season of NCAA,
    but isn't it worth it once every four years for the Olympics? The
    problem is the NCAA is such a big business, and the great players can't
    afford to not look towards the pros, there's too much cash involved.
    
    RE: the pros, the one thing that I am really looking forward to is
    (hopefully) watching these prima donna all stars get treated fairly
    by the officials for a change. One Bird walking call or a Jordan
    offensive foul would make it all worth while. I'm no expert on
    international officiating, what do people expect from these guys? do
    you think they'll call it all the same regardless of name? I hope so.

>    say it isn't so. This guy is the most obnoxious no class player I have
>    ever seen. He reminds me of Ted Knight's nephew in Caddyshack, only
>    taller. And he doesn't deserve it based on his basketball talents
>    either, 

    What basketball games have you been watching?  Any besides the Michigan
    game?  Laettner has been a force and inspiration for Duke since his
    freshman year.  He's either the #2 or #3 bigman coming out next
    season...Alonzo Morning has yet to prove himself.

    Did you see Laettner against UCONN in the NCAA's last March.  He got
    beat up...once while he was on his back on the floor, yet all through
    that game he kept his cool and was the deciding factor down the
    stretch.

    I think you just don't like him because he's a prep pretty boy.  But
    that's no reason to say he's a bad player.  I don't root for Duke on a
    regular basis, but I do know enough to recognize a great player based
    on demeanor and spirit and clutch play alone.  Laettner is the best
    bigman to come out of Duke since Gminski.  He will not be another Mark
    Allare.

    	--dan'l

    ok, I admit I don't like his pretty boy attitude, but I never
    said he wasn't a good player. I don't think he's the best player in
    the country though. ONeal, for one, is better. Webber, for another,
    is already better. He had several slams over him, and he made him look
    like a washington general on a fake under the basket. I watch my share
    of college hoops, so I've seen plenty of Christian, and I must admit he
    never annoyed me as much as he did in the Michigan game. At one point,
    he was tied up for a jump ball and started laughing/tauting the
    Michigan player, totally inappropriate. Maybe he's taken on a new
    attitude this season, maybe the press and the success have gone to his
    head. 

    re: -1
    
    Christian is a tremendous player who might play PW in the pros rather
    than center.  I agree that he sometimes comes off as an arrogant @@@#$
    but he backs it up with his game.   
    
    A die-hard Duke Fan,
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    I really didn't mean to get going on a I hate Laettner rampage,
    I am curious to see who else might be a serious candidate for the 
    team besides Laettner and ONeal. I wonder if they'll consider taking
    more than one non pro. 
    
    -dennis 

Hey dennis....

Shack would probably clean the floor with Laetner simply because Christian needs
to beef up his upper body still. But Leatner has been paying his dues for 3 years
now and has shown me that he's a fitting candidate for the Olympics...

Of course being in the final 4 every year certainly boosts your TV exposure...

How come there was never any rumors about Laetner leaving school early ?
Does he come from wealthy blue blood stock or something?

John

> How come there was never any rumors about Laetner leaving school early ?
> Does he come from wealthy blue blood stock or something?

  Actually Metz the pay's better at Duke....


 Seriously though, you're probably dead on in that he wouldn't qualify for
 hardship. Of course he could always hire an agent then get himself DQ'ed.
 Coach K stress education first and foremost he does not advise his Star
 Studs to go pro like the Snuffer. He went as far as to not hang a championship
 banner because 3 players (Henderson, Brickey and ???) hadn't completed their
 degrees....

 Besides being BOC has many many perks that life as Rookie doesn't...

 :^)

>How come there was never any rumors about Laetner leaving school early ?
>Does he come from wealthy blue blood stock or something?
    
    He does come from an upper-middleclass family, but that's not the
    point.  The point is, he attends Duke.  Most of the players are brains
    to begin with.  You don't get into that school undeservedly, and like
    most Duke players, he does not take that for granted.
    
    SI had a great article on Laettner in their basketball preview issue. 
    Even explored the story going around that he and Brian Davis had a
    little thing going on the side (i.e., they were gay).  Laettner's
    view toward that was let people think what they want, doesn't
    bother him.  Great attitude...offensive to no one.  
    
    	--dan'l

    
    Hardship qualifications?  Hardship qualifications consist of signing
    your name on a piece of paper that says you're declaring yourself
    a professional.  If Laettner had wanted to turn pro, he'd have done
    it.
    
    I don't have any problem with Laettner on the Olympic team.  Since
    the pros are going the supply the bulk of the talent, I do think
    the extra slots should go to the most fundamental college players,
    as role players.  Laettner is one of those players, and Jimmy Jackson
    probably the other.  Shack has regressed.  He'd better pick it up
    a notch or he's going to end up with JR Reid in the Land of College
    Phenoms Who Never Were...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, I don't know if Shack has regressed or if it's just poor
    coaching by Dale Brown.  I vote for the latter.  Brown has really
    under-achieved with this bunch the last three years.  He did nothing
    when he had Chris Jackson.  IMO it's been 5 years since Brown did a
    decent job of coaching.
    
    WILDCAT

    re: a few back, hey metz, hope all is well in the great north west.
    
    re the team, the team should take the best all around players available. It
    shouldn't matter how many times they're in the final four, or 
    how they are interviewed in Sports Illustrated.
    
    True, you don't want someone who will be a bad influence off the court,
    but I still don't think Laettner is the best available.
    
    I cannot believe that he would help this team more than ONeal would.
    I would take Hurley over Laettner. Also, I'm biased since I went to 
    Michigan, but I really think Webber would also help the team more than
    Laettner would.
    
    -dennis 

    
    In note 151.455 Hawk-a-mania writes:    
    
  >>    And, Magic officially announced that he intends to play 
        in the Olympics.
    
        My question is, why does he think that even though he won't
        have played competitive basketball for about a year he's got
        a guaranteed spot on the roster ? 

Probably because both Dave Gavitt and Chuck Daly have told him
they want him on the team.

    Because NBC and MacDonalds have told Gavitt and Daly who they will
    allow to play.
    
    JD

 don't forget Pepsi, JD...

       Hey! How about some time for Converse while we're at it!
                                     Denny

   According to a story on the radio this morning the Australian
  basketball team will likely boycott the Olympics if Magic is
  allowed to play. They had a sound bite of the Australian coach
  basically saying it wasn't worth the risk of someone else be-
  becoming infected.
    

>   According to a story on the radio this morning the Australian
>  basketball team will likely boycott the Olympics if Magic is
>  allowed to play. They had a sound bite of the Australian coach
>  basically saying it wasn't worth the risk of someone else be-
>  becoming infected.

The thing that cracked me up was the quote I heard:

	"Don't the Americans know what a bloody game it is"


And I went 

	HUH????


'Saw
    

    
    Will Magic now back down rather than keep other other teams or
    individual players from competing?  (he's not really keeping anyone
    from competing at all - it's their decision not to play.)
    
    Will Magic insist on playing to make his AIDS awareness statement to
    the world?
    
    Stay tuned.
    
    My hunch is that the controversy will simmer for a while, then the
    Olympic Committee will step in.
    
    Dickstah
    

From USA Today... 1/23/92

	MAGIC THREAT: Dr. Brian Sando, an Australian Olympic Federation
	official, has recommended a boycott against the U.S. Olympic men's
	basketball team if Magic Johnson plays in the Summer Games at
	Barcelona, Spain. Sando, senior medical director of the federation's
	basketball program, said Wednesday that Johnson, who has tested HIV-
	positive, represent a realistic threat of passing on the infection.
	Johnson has said he would like to play for the U.S. Olympic team and
	in the NBA's All-Star Game.

    
    This was the piece I was waiting for when I said that it will spur
    conversations that need to happen.  With Magic getting named to the All
    Star game, the issue will be on full boil for a few weeks.

    Geez, do they expect the man to *bite* them or something?
    
    I know basketball isn't a genteel sports, but unless the game has taken
    on the element of professional wrestling, I don't think people have
    anything to fear.
    
    
    kim

    With the support of all of the players in the all-star game and with
    his play in the game I believe Magic showed that he belonged on the
    team. Can you imagine the extra audience that will watch *just* because
    the Magic man is playing?
    
    
    Drew
    

    
    Hey, this is for all you who feel that the pro's really shouldn't play
    and for those really like the idea of the most powerful team in history
    (at least on paper).
    
    It's been reported that Dave Gavitt has told those players who have
    exclusive contracts that they either allow their likenesses to be sold
    (assumed for Olympic purposes-my thoughts) or to resign from the team.
    
    This showdown is going to be interesting... Jordan, Ewing, Stockton and
    Mullen are some of the players involved.
    
    hth,
    Kev
    

    re .269

    Well, well, well was there ever any doubt that it was all nothing but
    a marketing exec's wet dream come true ? All that "let's send our best'
    bull that most of the American public bought lock, stock and barrel. It's
    a damned shame is what it is. And who suffers ? Fans for one because the
    games are going to be more boring than 'Small Wonder' reruns. The young
    studs like Laetner, O'Neal and Hill who should have rightly gone will
    suffer too. But it's all about money, ain't a damn thing funny so screw
    the college kids and send a buncha jaded millioniares who will no doubt be
    looking for their share because the licensing fees will be phenomenal on
    everything from t-shirts to black velvet paintings of the holy trinity -
    Jesus, Elvis and Michael Jordan. Sure, the team'll do their best to win 
    the gold because it'll mean even more dough and that's what's really im-
    portant, isn't it ? It all stinks like yesterday's diapers.    
    

    re: .-1
    
    Amen, Amen, and AMEN. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I think putting our BEST players on the Olympic team is LONG overdue!!
    
    Our best vs. the World's best......the way it should have ALWAYS been!!
    
    
    HTH,
    
    Nelly

    
    	From the news wire...
    
    	Jordan and some other will have to give the NBA their *likeness*
    rights in order to play in the Olympics.  Seems that somebody want to
    make more money than the players.
    
    B.A.

�The young
�    studs like Laetner, O'Neal and Hill who should have rightly gone will
�    suffer too. But it's all about money, ain't a damn thing funny so screw
�    the college kids and send a buncha jaded millioniares who will no doubt be
�    looking for their share because the licensing fees will be phenomenal on
�    everything from t-shirts to black velvet paintings of the holy trinity -
�    Jesus, Elvis and Michael Jordan. 
    
    What's the difference?  These "young studs" will be in the
    multi-millionaire category as soon as they graduate anyway.  And won't
    all the money that can be drawn in because of having the best players
    (i.e NBA All-Stars) benefit the US Olympic Program in general?

    Has anyone heard the list of "practice" players for the Olympic hoop
    team? I heard it was 8 players including Webber and Hurley, but not
    including ONeal.  So I'm guessing the team will only include returning
    college players. If anyone has seen a full list, I'd be courious to see
    who the other players are.
    
    Also, when does the practice begin?
    
    -dennis          

    It was only returning college players.  I saw the list but forget who
    was on it except Webber, Hurley, Grant Hill, Rodney Rogers and
    Montross.

    
    Is there a list (somewhere) of "alternates" to the US squad?
    
    Suppose Larry drops out or something like that.  What happens?
    
    deen to wonk,
    Kev
    

 Mashburn's on the team as is Anfree Hardeway and maybe Byron Houston?

    Houston's a senior (used up his eligibility), I don't think it's him.
    

                <<< Note 17.4300 by HBAHBA::HAAS "WTOE Radio" >>>
                            -< ACC against the US >-

Four ACC players have been invited to field a college team to play
against the Olympians. They'll meet the US Team in San Diego June 22-26.
The college team will be used to help prepare the US Team but won't be
part of official competition.

The ACCers: Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill, Duke; Eric Montross, No
Carolina; and Rodney Rogers, Wake Forest.

Duke will also be represented on the US Team with token collegian
Laettner and Assistant Coach K.

Also invited: Jamal Mashburn, Kentucky; Anfernee Hardaway, Memphis St;
Chris Webber, Michigan; Allan Houston, Tennessee.

TTom

FWIW, USA Today is letting people phone in and vote for who they'd like
to see starting for the Dream Team. It's only a public opinion thang and
not binding on the U.S. Olympic officials who'll really make the call.

The toll-free number:	1-800-523-6565

Call them from a touch tone phone and here's the players' numbers:

	1 Barkley	 7 Laettner
	2 Larry		 8 Malone
	3 Drexler	 9 Mullin
	4 Ewing		10 Pippen
	5 Magic		11 Robninson
	6 Michael	12 Stockton

You can vote up through Sunday noon EDT.

TTom

    	Call 1-800-JIN-GOISM to vote for what you would like to see
    as the final spread when TEAM USA plunders its way through the
    Olympics!
    
    				/Don

       Remember when playing your over/unders that the games are only 40
    minutes, so wins may only be by 50 instead of 60!
                                     Denny

    Already you've got guys like Michael Jordan saying that the Olympics
    are only a free vacation to Europe to him, that it'll take 7-8 minutes 
    to bury China, etc.  I'm sure he's not the only one who feels this way.  
    Pretty much all of my potential regrets around having the NBA 
    professionals compete have been realized...  
    
    glenn
    

    USA Baske*ball will have a* leas* one nailbi*er, and I be* several 
    games *ha* are decided by fewer *han 10 poin*s.

    They'll win all their games by at least 20.
    
    Joe

    Depends on how they call travels, palming, handchecking...
    

    Doug, you forgot about the "t"s in your p_name.  HTH.
    
    I'm 50-50 on our Olympic team.  Part of me is very curious about how
    they'll do, and the pther part of me would like to see them crushed and
    humiliated, just like Mikey C. does...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    
     So, basically it's no longer a question of who is going to win but
    by how much. And now even some of the most vocal proponents here in 
    the Sportsnotes community of the pros playing in the Olympics are 
    now talking about not watching because the team doesn't represent
    the Olympic spirit and about how boring the games will be. Well, no 
    kidding ! Sometimes the naivete of people just amazes me. 

I ain't gonna watch it cause they're charging for it.

I might catch a game or 2 at a local bar, if'n they're allowed to show it
but no way am I gonna sign up for no pay for view. Talk about unamerkin.

TTom

    Are any of the games, or even any of the Olympics, gonna be on any
    non-pay-per-view channels?
    
    Hawk
    

    NBC will have prime time Olympic coverage (all on tape) during the
    nights of the Olympics and will have some expanded coverage on during
    the days on the weekends.  It will be very similar to the hours CBS
    covered the Winter Olympics.
    
    The pay-per-view is generally during the weekday hours.
    
    John

 	Hey I plan on signing up for the Gold Package.  I mean you haven't 
really lived until you've watched the Liechtenstein archery team or the 
Zimbabwe high diver.  I don't wanna miss a minute!

				/Don

    
    check me on this for accuracy, OK?
    
    Aren't we gonna get our first opportunity to see the Dream Team in
    action this weekend on free tee vee?  Or is it next(ed) weekend?
    
    Kev
    

Slasher,

Are you and Dinz entered in the Synchronized Swimming again this time?

Will there be any filbert tickling?


Enquiring Minds Phoe Shit Schlep,
'Saw

      I am kinda divided like Hawk?  I want to see these guys do great and
    bring home the gold,  but then again their egos (or should it be
    eggos?) need deflated!!
    
      IMO, the players should have had to go through the tryouts to try and
    make the team just like in years past.
    
      Maybe the Bulls should go since they are the best TEAM that the 
    U.S.A. has.
    
    
      Maybe we should send the Jamaican bobsled team.
    
    
      I won't pay for any coverage.  The cable companies rip us off all
    ready just for basic, not to mention if you decide to get the movie
    type of channels.
    
      Tim

    Yeah, it's natural to want the USA to win the gold, but really, the
    toughest teams in past years would be Yugoslavia and the USSR, which
    don't even exist as countries any more, Brazil might be OK, too. For
    any of these countries to expect to beat the US is dreaming, but in
    some ways, it will be better for the sport as a whole if some serious
    contenders emerge (Croatia? Estonia?)  
    
    As for playing the pros, If Hakeem Olajuan can play for Nigeria and
    Detif Schempf and Uwe Blab can play for Gemany (since they're the best 
    they've got, it would be a shame if they couln't) everyone else should 
    be allowed to bring in the best players they have, regardless if they 
    play for UNLV, Chicago Bulls, Trevisio Benneton or YugoPlastika Prop 84.
    
    In 1992 it will be a massacre, but maybe not in 1996, 2000, 2004, etc.
    
    Tom

�      IMO, the players should have had to go through the tryouts to try and
�    make the team just like in years past.
    
    The tryouts were the NBA and NCAA regular season and playoffs.  How
    much more do you need to see?
    
    Tommy (or anyone), please define "Olympic Spirit".

    Yabbut basketball is a *team* sport, and these guys are all on
    different teams. If'n they started out with twice the players they
    needed, then no one would be guarateed a spot. Some players might be
    tired from playing a 120 game season, some may not take it very
    seriously, expecting a walkover, other combinations might not work well
    together, etc. Let the coaching staff decide who works best by tryouts. 
    
    Tom

As someone put it to me,

How is TEAM USA gonna play without 5 balls on the court at the same time?



'Saw

    re .299:
    
    > it will be better for the sport as a whole if some serious
    > contenders emerge (Croatia? Estonia?)  
      
    How about Lithuania -- they supplied past Soviet teams with some
    excellent hoopsters (most notably Sabonis (sp?), center for the Soviet
    teams of a decade or two ago).  
                                  
    Saurunas Marculionis and Arturas Karnishovas are two pretty fair
    players to start a team with...
    
                     
    py 

                            
    > Tommy (or anyone), please define "Olympic Spirit".
    
    I think it's explicitly defined in the original Olympic charter. 
    There's supposedly stuff in there about brotherhood, the absence of
    politics and nationalism, sportmanship, etc...
    
    glenn
    

Mac -

IMO, Olympic Spirit died completely with the Peter Uberroth CommericIal highly
jingoistic 1984 L.A. Olympics.  Prior to those games, I always felt that 
everything, from coverage to the athletes themselves, tended to focus more
on the joy of being at the Olympics = instead of USA chants, flag waving, etc.

Part of it, IMO, stems from the money these guys make.  Basically, we went
from 1976 (Montreal) to 1988 (Soeul) without the big boys competing.

IN the years before 1984, the sports were covered, and the coverage seemed
to pick  up on the joys of the likes of Lasse Viren, and events were covered
even if Americans didn't have a chance to win a medal.

IN 84, the USA was able to medal in sports that we never do - bicycling,
greco-roman wrestling, men's gymnastics, etc...and the coverage was aimed
totally at the flag.  It was packaged to show dominance and superioty - and
commercial might.  It had little to do with sports or the "Olympic Spirit"

THe Olympic SPirit lives on now in the  smaller countries, and in Bud
Greenspan highlight films.  

You can see it in  the way NBC covers other events.  Witness the 45 minutes
of coverage/hype given the *TAPED* coveage of last years 100M in the World Track
Champs.   Of the hype given to ROcky and whatsherface the Ice Skaters...

Since Peter Ueboroth, the Olympics are about making money, sell products, and
boring fluff pieces.

JD

-

Glenn -

That's basically it.  The olympic charter stresses sports as a way to
unify or something like that - and not as a competition to see which
country wins the most medals.

JD

    True Glenn and JD,
    Seems the CCCP and East Germany also forgot to read the charter.
    
    MikeL
    

    You know, I recall when Alan Eagleson put together the first Canada Cup
    series with the Soviets. A group of the NHL's best would put an end to
    this silly notion of Soviet hockey superiority.
    
    I mean, Bobby Orr, Esposito, players from the Broad St Bullie, some of
    the Flying Frenchmen from Rue de St Catherine. It'll be a blowout,
    n'est pas?
    
    We found out different, didn't we?
    
    The way I see it, the remnants of the Yugos and Sov will be playing for
    different teams and, frankly, they don't have anything to lose. I
    recall when Puerto Rico gave a highly touted USA team all it could
    handle. 
    
    Anything can happen. Players from Italy, Spain, Brazil, Lithuania,
    Croatia, Canada, Cuba, China, Mexico, Germany and Puerto Rico are going
    into this with nothing to lose. How can you feel ashamed losing to the
    USA?
    
    So they just may play with more heart and more guts and more pride than
    the assembled US megastars. And the international refs may just take
    the USA totally out of their game by not allowing the travelling,
    3-second violations and other things that are so integral a part of the
    USA teams' repertoire.
    
    A word of caution: Do not take the other Olympic teams lightly!
    
    Rich
    

    
     Get real, Rich. I think you've been watching too many 'Rocky' 
    sequels. The US will skate to the gold and forever cheapen the 
    Olympics.

    re .309
    
    OK, so you think it will be a cakewalk. That is your perogative. I am
    simply saying that the 1980 US hockey team pulled of an upset. There
    have been numerous upsets in the past. The world has become nuch better
    at basketball in the past 20 years.
    
    Without a doubt, there is NO team with the individual talent of the US.
    Nobody comes close. If these guys play with fire and intensity and
    listen to Coach Daley, they should demolish the opposition.
    
    But, can you see these guys destroying Surinam in the first game by 70
    points and the cameras are scanning the smirking players on the bench.
    They think it's so easy. Then you get a semi-talented team that is
    disciplined, knows how to play roles and starts to frustrate the US.
    There is a good chance that, if the US gets into trouble, they will go
    to BM (Blazer-Mode) and embark on a case of 1 man Bball. 
    
    Rich
    

    
    I think it will take the US basketball team a little while to get
    used to the international rules.
    
    1.  Touching the ball while it is on the rim.
    2.  Time limit to shoot free-throws
    3.  Not waiting for the ref to throw the ball in.
    4.  ZONE defenses
    5.  Defending the 3 pt line.
    
    Phil

Another appalling example of the commercialization of the 'lympics is the 
switch to the staggered year format (the next winters are in two years, not 
four).  This will allow the world to stir up 'lympic "spirit" (read: sell 
'lympic merchendise) every two years instead of four.

Ya know, sending da Bulls wouldn't be such a a bad idea.  Kinda like how the 
Stanley Cup winner would play the all stars in the six team NHL.

=Bob=

    re .311:
    
    Good point, although the US hoopsters who played in previous Olympics 
    would already be aware of these rule changes.
    
    
    py

    So it's not in the "Olympic Spirit" for the best athletes to compete or
    to have fans?

      How can you (whomever it was) say that the NBA and NCAA seasons were
    basically the tryouts?   Are you saying Scottie Pippen deserves to be
    on the team?
    
      I would think someone else can out do him.  SAme goes for Laettner,
    Drexler and the rest for all that matter.  Yes it would be very unusual
    to see somone knock Jordan off the team,  but at least let people try. 
    Other benefactor is you might find some "hidden" talent by tryouts.
    
      Yes this USA team probably will turn the olymipic Bball into a joke. 
    They already have by deciding who is on the team without tryouts.
    
      Doesn't all the other sports competitions have tryouts?  Look at the
    people that train for 10 years and never make the team,  yet a player
    that someone gave a name to is automatically on.....incosistent
    descision making IMO....
    
    
       Tim

    Bob Ryan had a good point in today's Globe - why should we apologize
    for sending our best players to a tournament?  
    
    John

    Hey Ninj, who's apologizing (seriously)?
    
    I'm still 50-50 on this, but leaning more and more for some major
    underdog, like Team Nepal, to score the winning hoop over Team NBA with
    no time left on the clock...  
    
    Hawk

    John Thompson had a good point in today's Globe - why should we apologize
    for sending our best Hoyas to play UC-East Podunk?  
    
    -Walt
    

    Thompson should apologise for SCHEDULING teams like UC-East Podunk.

    >                 -< Shouldn't be there to begin with >-
    
    Maybe that's the whole point...

    OK, I'm starting to understand now.  The Olympic Spirit means not
    rooting for the hometown team and sending mediocre athletes to
    competiton so everyone can feel warm and fuzzy about having a chance
    to win.

    re .316
    
    HHAHHAHAHAAAA !!!!!!!!! You slay me Tommy ! Too funny !

    You think a team of Shaq, Laettner, Jimmy Jackson, Chris Webber and
    Bobby Hurley would be mediocre?  Filling in with guys like Walt
    Williams, Adam Keefe, Tracy Murray, etc...  it was until '88...
    
    I think the Olympic Spirit is having fun with the rest of the world
    and not a shot at extended jingoism... Let's not have Olympic hockey
    and instead have the NHL have the Canadiens be all Canadian, the Red
    Wings be all Russian, the Kings be all British and the so on.  Or send
    Evander Holyfield for boxing.  I'm not a fan of Jim Courier
    representing the US either.  Or Brian Boitano if he's already joined
    Ice Capades.  Like they need the extra endorsements... I guess I'm still 
    a fan of amateur sports, color me silly... (figuratively, not literally) 
    
    Otherwise  we can hire someone at Camp Northstar to beat "The Stomach" 
    instead of seeing if the regular guy slob winning and upsetting the 
    competition.  

    Walt's .324 outlines the problem I have with the policies on allowing
    pros in the Olympics -- they're not consistent from sport to sport
    (i.e., professionals are allowed in basketball, but not other sports
    like baseball or boxing).
    
    Either keep it entirely amateur (my preference), or allow professionals
    in across the board; the current policies in my opinion are a
    mish-mosh.
    
    
    py

    The "Olympic Ideal" clashes with modern reality. Let's just say that I
    was talented enough to be a_olympic hopeful. Unfortunately, not being 
    independently wealthy means that I have to work at a job in order to
    eat. Now if someone comes along and tells me I can train for my sport
    and not have to worry about financial matters, I might be able to reach
    my potential. Trouble is, that someone happens to be the local pro team
    in my sport, and in allowing me to train they are hiring me to play for
    the team and put buts in the seats. Why is this different than say, a
    track athlete who gets sponsorship from th AAU.
    
    In the Victorian era when the modern olympics were conceived, it was
    the age of the "gentleman sportsman." No Olympian came from a working
    class background (cause he always had to work). The reasoning of
    keeping it amateur was to keep out the non-aristocrats, plain and simple.
    
    The sooner the pompous old windbags of the IOC like Avery Brundage,
    Juan Antonio Smarach and others give up this hypocritic sham, the
    better off we all will be. Sure, it's a crime if an ath-u-lete gets a
    little cash to help him/her train, but it's OK for host cities to bribe
    the hell out of Olympic officials, usually at local taxpayer expense.
    
    Tom  

Mac -

As I stated a long time ago.  No matter what, there should be tryouts.  Hey - Carl
Lewis is the Greatest, I mean greatest, Sprinter, and Long Jumper - to EVER,
and I mean EVER lace on a pair of track spikes.  He's easily the equal - and IMO -
the better - of a Michael Jordan.  But while Air gets a free ride - Lewis has
to QUALIFY - and as happened this week - didn't MAKE the squad in the 100 meter.

That's fair.  Having McDonalds and Coke and NBC handpicking them isn't.  Sure,
99% of the time, Air Jordan will make the team - just like 99% of the time
Carl Lewis will make the team.  All it takes is one injury, etc...

I've never agreed with the pampering free ride the McDonalds team has gotten.

JD_waiting_for_Mac's_next_cynical_remark

    re: professionals
    
    Walt, what is the difference between a Soviet or Yugoslav top player
    (befoire 1992 of course) being in a cushy army job, getting paid,
    getting housing, getting perks and all they do is play basketball than
    a pro from  the US in the Olympics. Same thing only one is less blatant
    than the other.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    JD, how did Jordan not qualify?  He was a top NBA draftpick and he now
    has 2 champeenship rings and a couple of MVP trophies.  I wouldn't call
    those 80 game seasons + playoffs a free ride.  And the last time I
    checked, Dave Gavitt worked for the Boston Celtics, not McDonald's.
    
    Comparing the qualification process between a team and an individual
    sport is apples and oranges.  It's a lot easier to measure the
    performance of a sprinter than it is a firstbaseman or a pointguard.
    
�JD_waiting_for_Mac's_next_cynical_remark
    
    Just fighting fire with fire, JD.

Mac -

using your logic, then why did Carl Lewis have to qualify.?

World record holder.

2 gold medals in the 100meter.  

Reigning world champion.

And that's just starter.

ANd c'mon Mac - even you know that this team has been picked for commercialization-
heck, MacDonalds had commercials about 2 nanoseconds after the team was
picked.  You aren't that sleepy to have not noticed the, ahem, coincidence.

Gavitt was a stooge to MCdonalds, Coke, etc...

JD

�using your logic, then why did Carl Lewis have to qualify.?
    
    Cuz that's the way the governing body of his sport chose to do it. 
    Maybe your beef should be with the T&F folks.  Or maybe that's the
    nature of the sport, that trials are appropriate for individual events?
    
�You aren't that sleepy to have not noticed the, ahem, coincidence.
    
    No, but I'm also not blind to the fact that these guys earned their
    commercial appeal by being some of the best basketball players in the
    world.

My only problem with having the team picked without tryouts is this:

	You are presenting the coach with a fait acoompli.  


If I'm the coach, I want to be in on the selection process, and hopefully
choose players that I can mold into a TEAM.   The success of Team USA
hinges on their ability to play as a 5 man team, and not as 5 All Stars.
Very important point there....


'Saw

    I equate today's Larry Bird to today's Carl Lewis, in other words, had
    there been a basketball tryout, a younger, stronger, healthier,
    less-famous NBAer would probably have Bird sitting alongside of
    Lewis.  IMO, of course...
    
    Hawk
    

    Tryouts for team sports either seem to be long, drawn-out affairs
    (hockey), confused messes (gymnastics) or end up in court (rowing,
    bobsledding).  I'm just as happy basketball avoided the entire mess.
    
    John

    re .327
    
    Re Carl L.
    
    1) Can he go to the 100m as an alternate ?
    2) What events will he participate in ?
    
    3) Remember Steve Williams ? A great sprinter, back in the mid-70's. He
    got injured in '72 and '76, didn't make either Olympics - and deserved
    to. Neither did Houston McTear.

    re .334
    
    Hawk, Lewis set the world record in the 100m just last year - and broke
    the 29 foot barrier in the long jump.
    
    That's like Bird winning the MVP, or avg. 40ppg while winning the title, 
    and we know that didn't happen.
    
    Right ? (heh heh heh)
    
    Doc

    Dock, ok, poor analogy, but my direct point was, in a fair race, man to
    man, Lewis lost, and now he won't compete (in that event anyway)...
    
    Hawk
    

    re .336:
    
    The US takes the top six finishers in the Trials 100m as its 4 x 100m
    relay team (two extra to serve as alternates and/or run preliminary
    heats). Since Lewis finished 6th, he could be part of the relay team.
    
    As far as being an alternate in the individual 100m, wouldn't the 4th
    and 5th place finishers be considered ahead of Carl?  
    
    
    py

    re TCM:  The same Yugo and Russian athletes scraping for helps so they
    can train now? That was then, this is now.  No East German factory.  No
    USSR subsidizing.  No Yugo team in the games (as of now).  Only ones
    who are living the cushy life really is Cuba.  I'd rather not put them
    in that category. Maybe a few others, but I don't see why we have
    to "Be Like" them...
    
    Why should I send $$ to Colorado Springs if all they're going to do is
    let guys like Courier, Jordan and Matt (leave the Bruins for at least a
    shot at the team DelGuidice?  I know rowing teams, biathletes, etc. are
    drawing from the same sponsorship, but to me it's not the same.  Let
    Jordan tryout and miss some time if he's that dedicated.  Let Courier
    train for 2 months in Colorado instead of going to Wimbledon...
    

                                                                   
    We've been through this tryout nonsense before.  How does anyone
    propose to set up the basketball tryouts in an objective way such as 
    exists with the sprint trials?  Three-point contest?  H-O-R-S-E?  Layup 
    drills; first one to miss goes home?  Guess what guys; the coach and 
    the USBA are going to pick the the guys *they* want, tryouts or no, and 
    not through some "fair" measure of ability... 
    
    Tom H. is absolutely right about amateurism.  It never was and never
    could be a fair system.  Amateurism is inherently elitist, and while 
    the amateur ideal of playing sports for the love of sport can be 
    (and is by many of us) realized on a local level, it could never work 
    on a national or international level, at least not where any kind of 
    premium at all is placed on being competitive, where full-time 
    intensive training is a requirement.  The only true amateurs are then
    indeed the independently wealthy.
    
    However, there's a big difference between not embracing amateurism and
    not having a problem with professionals competing and having those
    same professionals exempt themselves from the spirit of the Games by
    isolating themselves from the Olympic community, making inflammatory
    and unsportsmanlike comments, etc.  That's elitism all over again.
    The first guy to rub it in on the court negates the meaning of the gold
    medal in my book, and it has nothing to do with professionalism...
    
    glenn
     

    How do they decide in hockey?  Baseball? Bobsledding.  They do what
    they do best as a team and then the powers that be decide.  If they
    did it the same way in bobsledding, why wasn't Herschel on the team?
    
    I agree it's the attitude too.  If Pippen had to raise a finger to
    get on the team he wouldn't be making "If Isiah's on the team, I'm
    not going" statements.  He'd appreciate it more.

     As it is now, the team has less than a week to practice.
    
     If there was a long drawn out process of tryouts, the team would have
    no time at all to practice and get comfortable with each other style
    of play.
    
     The same group who selected these players, would probably select
    the same players if there was a tryout, due to the players fan
    appeal.
    
    
     All of you in favor of a tryout, What criteria would be used to
    determine who got invited to the tryout.
    
    Lets see,   Would it be, Who ever averaged 20+ pts. in church league
                and up, be invited.
    
     
    
    If thats the case I'll see ya at the tryouts.  :^)
    
    
    Big "O"
    
    
        
    
              

    Walt, even though the Red Army sports teams no longer exist, you can't
    tell me that professionals from other countries aren't competing. 
    Those leagues in Italy and Eastern Europe are professional, you know. 
    Soccer, tennis, hockey, and track and field all allow pros.  Why not
    basketball?
    
    Why should you send money into Colorado Springs?  Like you said, there
    are plenty of other sports which don't enjoy the TV sponsorship which
    can use your money.  If anything, the inclusion of professionals into
    the Olympics helps these smaller sports out.  The pros don't need the
    money to subsidize training facilities and travel thus making more
    money available for the biathaletes, water polo players, etc.

    As far as who gets selected for a team sport, yes, that is all up to
    the coach/management of the team. Player selection all depends of the 
    type of team you want to build. If USA Basketball had their pick of all
    the NBA and college players, there are way too many good players, and
    someone "deserving" will always be left out. If the powers that be
    wanted a run-and-gun team like the Denver Nuggets they would pick
    certain players who would not be on the team if it were modeled after
    the defensive-oriented Pitons or Knicks. 
    
    In international soccer these issues are dealt with all the time. The
    major pro leagues in Europe end in May, and the National teams play
    in tournaments like the Euro Championships, the US Cup or friendly
    internationals. Who gets picked for the national team? Depends on who
    the coach wants, plain and simple. England had a terrible time at the
    Euro 92, losing in the first round. A lot of armchair coaches are
    calling for Graham Taylor's scalp because he selected certain players
    instead of others. Right or wrong, it has always been his perogative to
    build a team in a certain image, whatever he thinks will help them win.
    
    The same analogy can be used with the NHL/Canada Cup teams. The first
    times they played the USSR, it was a collection of All-Stars. Only
    later did they realize they needed some diggers/grinders/checkers to do
    the job too, even though these guys were not by any means the stars.
    Bottom line is that NHL/Canada Cup teams did MUCH better once they
    figured this out.
    
    So leave it up to Daly, Gavitt, etc. to select the type of team they
    want, then bring in about twice as many players as they need and see
    who works best together. 
    
    Tom

     I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and pick the US men's basket-
    ball team to win the gold in Barcelona. Call me crazy but there's
    something about this scrappy band of kids that I like. I think they've
    got moxie. And maybe just maybe *if* these kids can bring home the gold 
    maybe then America can recover from the downward spiral we've been in 
    ever since we lost the gold in Seoul. Maybe if this group of punk kids 
    can bring home the gold then maybe each of us can dig down deep and say, 
    "Hey, I can make these widgets just a little better than I've been making
    them" or "Hey, I don't need two hours for lunch. An hour and 45 minutes
    is plenty." It could happen.
    

    Re: Tom, are you by any chance the speech-writer for George Bush?
    
    
    REK

Rek -

Did you hear 'whoosh' when that went by your head?

JD

    Yeah, I tole him he should eat pork rinds, lissen to country music and
    talk down to people so they wuddint think he was one of them wealthy east 
    coast intellectual type collij boys. I also invented the cliche "the 
    vision thing." Trouble is, he has vision about as good as Ray Charles.
    
    Tom

    Re: JD No, Why?
    
    
    REK

    re: Walt
    
    The argument you make that this year the Russians and Yugoslavs don't
    have all that backing is totally irrelevant. They do not have backing
    because of political events and lack of money in the country. If the
    money were still there they would probalby still get a nice chunk of
    it. 
    
    I have no objection to making the Olympics a competition for amateurs
    but if that is the case then the same rules need to apply to athletes
    from all countries. Since that is not going to happen each country
    should be able to send their best athletes/teams.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

well Rek, it seemed like Tommy's reply went whizzing right on by ya...

    re .Tommie
    
    Tom, don't forget to play "Battle Hymm Of The Republic" after you're
    done !

    No Jd, i read it and understood... What do you mean it went whizzing
    by me?
    
    REK

    1) The team has less than a week because they went with the NBA
    players.  If it was college players, they could have been playing
    for at least a month and had some practice games to learn the offense,
    defense and each other's style.
    
    2) I think it is relevant about the Eastern countries.  I saw a piece
    a week or 2 ago about what Sariunus Marciulonis (sp) and what he had to
    raise money to get the Lithuanian team to the Olympics.  A lot of
    fundraisers here, calls back home etc.  A lot of those cushy jobs are
    gone.  A lot of players that were in that situation are now heading
    toward leagues in Europe and the US.  Granted, they play over there
    professionally, but then, so can guys like Sampson, McAdoo and Tim
    Kempton.  You don't think a well-coached team of non-NBA players could
    beat them?
    

Fergit it REK.

    I also saw that piece on the NBAer from Lithuania (won't try to spell
    that name!).  He's getting lots of support from Don Nelson as well as
    his NBA teammates through fund raisers.  It also mentioned about him
    racking-up $3K a month (!) phone bills, paid for out of his own
    pocket, from calling his Lithuanian Olympic teammates, organizing it
    all himself.  Now, that's Olympic spirit!
    
    Re: what kind of try-outs for the NBAers to make Team USA?
    
    I dunno, but my high school JV hoops try-out comes to mind.  From day 1
    to final cuts took less than a week.  And, we were "graded" on a wide
    range of basketball skills, individual and team, as well as
    athleticism, which included stuff like endurance.  Or, is this too
    simple and basic a concept for our pampered millionaires?
    
    I know, I know, it would never happen/work....
    
    HTH.  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    re: .356
    
    I must not be making myself clear, so what else is new :-)
    
    For years other countries (mostly East Bloc) have been sending their
    best athletes and who's status as amateurs was dubious at best. Just
    because this year they happen to have run into some tought times does
    not mean that the US should not send its bets players now that it can.
    Yeah college players might have been able to win, but Marcilaunus is an
    NBA player and will be playing why shouldn't Malone, Jordan, etc. be on
    the US team????
    
    The Crazy Met
    
    

    I'd feel better if they weren't hand selected vs. a tryout.  But I 
    understand why.  I just think it's overkill and overshadows other
    people perhaps as if not more deserving (Michael Johnsons, Teresa
    Edwards, etc...)
    

    
    doesn't mean much but.....
    
    
    	well they lost their first game to a bunch of college kids
    	88-80......
    
    
    	Lou

�    I dunno, but my high school JV hoops try-out comes to mind.  
    
    Hawk, there is a huge difference between trying to select a team from a
    pool of 20 players all in one location, and trying to select one from a
    pool of thousands playing all over the country.

This 'pick out of thousands' stuff is really stupid.  Before Air and the boys
agents' decided a gold medal would help endorsement money come in, the USA
had tryouts consisting of college players (and afew high schoolers, I believe).
Bob Knight had 65 players at his camp.  Now, if they could do it then, they
could do it now.  This thousands of players crap is a cop-out.

There are thousands of sprinters and rowers out there, but there are qualifying
standards.

Inviting 40 players for hoops tryouts would pose no logistical problems at all.

JD

�There are thousands of sprinters and rowers out there, but there are qualifying
�standards.
    
    So you still can't see the difference between a team sport which
    competes against another team, and an individual sport which competes
    against the clock...
    
�This 'pick out of thousands' stuff is really stupid.  Before Air and the boys
�agents' decided a gold medal would help endorsement money come in, the USA
�had tryouts consisting of college players (and afew high schoolers, I believe).
    
    And there were still complaints because someone was overlooked because
    they didn't play for a big name school.

    
    >So you still can't see the difference between a team sport which
    >competes against another team, and an individual sport which competes
    >against the clock...
    
    So we should hand pick the USA hockey team next time?  Why was that
    different?  If these guys are so great, they shouldn't need the 3-6
    months of play they hockey team needed right?

    Now that the Dream Team is officially playing together the all-time
   team record for clich�s set just this year by the Chicago Bulls is in 
   serious jeopardy. For you folks scoring at home some phrases to watch
   out for are "team concept", "it's a team sport" ,"team effort" and 
   "we have one goal". Others that you're sure to hear are "America's game",
   "no egos" and "it's an honor".
   
    

And Mac, you still show a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to those
'against the clock' sports.  Stick to cynicism and rugby.

JD

    JD, how come some sports always seem to end up with the competitors who
    didn't make it going into court?  If anything, that's what I'd want to
    avoid with the basketball tryouts.
    
    John

John -

Don't know exactly what you mean.  But IMO, all sports should have tryouts, or
none.  Mac's fragile grasp on sports other than rugby and the like shouldn't mean
that superstars in those sports shouldn't get the same red carpet treatment
that these pampered NBA brats are getting.

The hell with the NBA season being the tryout.  If these guys really want
to do - let them try out.  If their egos can handle it, and they really,
really want to represent the USA, then a tryout shouldn't be any problem at all.
Instead, its a joke.  Voting via USA Today, etc.

For the benefit of one certain moderator, team sports are NOT limited to
those that need the competitors to caress a ball to make them feel macho or
something.

JD

    JD, you criticize Mac for being cynical, yet you offered that beauty of
    a reply in the Sox note regarding Clemens and Sox fans in your very
    next note.
    
    I don't get it.
    
    Mark.

Mark -

Each note is different.  Mac has been Mr. Cynic for over a week now.

I'm sorry - but over the years, I've run into too many fans that take solance
in a players individual glories (and yes, other fans do it - but Sox fans are
oh, so easy to tweak...)

JD

    1.  At least one rowing team ends up suing the organizers of the rowing
    competition over some sort of procedural matter.  Usually when the
    races are re-run, the suers get clobbered, thus proving the decision
    was right in the first place.
    
    2.  The bobsledders have sued the organizers time-after-time over how
    the team was picked.
    
    I see the point about the tryouts, but by letting pros in (which is a
    move I agree with, I think we should send our best players) it cuts
    down on the time to have a proper tryout camp.  With college kids, the
    tryout camps can conceivably start in April.  With pros, the tryout
    process would cut down on the limited amount of time the team has to
    practice together.  It might be fairer, but it might also hurt the
    quality of the team in the long run.
    
    Referring to my points above, we'd probably also get some sort of
    amateur idiot who wants to live the Impossible Dream and play against
    the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans of the world and when he was
    refused, sue to be included in the tryouts.  That would make things
    even worse.
    
    I don't particularly care whether there was or wasn't a tryout camp,
    but I see the reasons for not having one and I'm satisfied that the
    right thing is being done.
    
    John

John -

The bobsledding suits mostly came from special considerations being made
to accomodate the 'name' folks who flocked to it, like Gualt, Hershel, Moses, etc.

Hey, I'm all for that - but let EVERYONE play by the same rules.  If Willie
Gualt wants to be an Olympic bobsleder - then let him spend the time and
train and be part of the team - and not expect to be put on the team cuz
he's Willie Gualt.

Don't know about the rowing incident.   Most  of the problems stem from the
governing bodies, which have been screwed up for decades.

JD

    
    I must have missed something.  The point about sports involving a time
    against a clock isn't that those athletes are not part of a team or are
    somehow inferior, but that their performance is very easy to evaluate
    because it's right there in front of you in flashing scoreboard lights.
    
    It seems to me that if Chuck Daly had pre-picked his team, held the
    "tryouts" behind closed doors to satisfy a requirement and then sent 
    the people he originally didn't want home (like Bob Knight did with 
    Charles Barkley, for instance, and not because Barkley didn't 
    outperform any of the others in some set of objective tests) no one 
    would have a problem with the process.  Whatever it takes to yield the
    same result, I guess...
    
    glenn
    

                                                  
    > So we should hand pick the USA hockey team next time?  Why was that
    > different?  If these guys are so great, they shouldn't need the 3-6
    > months of play they hockey team needed right?
    
    The difference is that the decision was made, for good or bad, to go
    with professionals.  The coach of the team has seen the players who are
    up for selection hundreds of times, scouting them in minute detail in
    preparation for games with own team.  By contrast, the coach of the
    Olympic baseball team had never even seen some of the players
    considered to be the best in the college game before his tryouts...
    
    glenn
    

    >The difference is that the decision was made, for good or bad, to go
    >with professionals. 
    
    Nope, the hockey team had professionals.  LeBlanc was one, Moe Mantha
    was another.  Guys like Lane McDonald who played overseas was invited.
    Not to mention DelGuidice before he got sent back home to Maine.
    
    The problem was that you had to find player willing to give up the
    bucks and teams willing to let players out of their contracts to play
    in the Olympics.  Like Moog or Sean Burke did to play in Canada.  If 
    the Summer Olympics were in May, you'd probably see a lot different team
    granted, but I'm sure if it could be worked out legally, Pat LaFontaine
    would have been welcomed on the Olympic team if the Sabres said ok.
    

    > What does 2-3 weeks tell you after 10 years in the NBA?
    
    That's part of it, glenn.  For example, Bird's been in the NBA what, 12
    years now?  Yeah, he's most certainly proved to be a top player, upper
    echelon, whatever, but he's well past his prime now, and there's
    probably many other younger players who are right now in their prime
    who could eat Larry's lunch, but because they haven't done their time
    like Larry, Larry gets the spot.  And, look at Magic- he's retired for
    chrissakes!  Did Coach Daly hand-pick him too, or did Magic go up to
    him and say that he'll play?  Regardless, but the fact remains, Magic
    hasn't played pro ball in a year.  Furthermore, why don't we just get
    Kareem back?  Heck, he's only been retired for a mere 2 years, and he's
    arguably the best center the NBA's ever seen?
    
    The more I look at this picture, the more I see a popularity thing,
    moreso than a group of allstars in the athletic sense.  And, we all
    know that popularity is "in bed with" good ol' money, once again...
    
    I'm even agreeing now that our best professionals should be there. 
    But, I just don't see everyone on Team USA as being the best.  Best for
    the most part, but what's not really the best (again, right here and
    now) is certainly there because of popularity, IMHO...
    
    Hawk
    

    
    I'm not claiming that the best players are being represented-- hell
    yes there are politics involved.  I'm just saying that I don't think
    these magical tryouts where the best 12 definitively emerge from the
    pretenders would occur.  I don't think John Thompson had the best 
    team out there, either-- as I recall very few in here did.  He got who 
    he wanted, the players he thought would make the best team for his 
    game...
    
    glenn
    

    You KNEW this was going to come up sometime...I heard that Patrick
    Ewing injured his thumb. They didn't say how serious it was, but the
    other big man in camp, David Robinson had a thumb injury keep him out
    otf the playoffs this past year.
    
    Suppose for a second that it IS a serious injury, NO contingency plan
    was made for having other players ready to fill in. If, as I have been
    suggesting all along, they had say, 4 top rate centers to choose from,
    if one goes down with an injury, it isn't a problem.
    
    This is the main problem with having the "dream team" hand picked 9
    months before the first international game. Things can go wrong, and
    invariably they will. It may not cost them this time, but some day this
    foolhardy arrogant way of thinking will.
    
    Tom 

Just think, if this was tryouts, just like Andre Cason (torn achilles in 100m
heats), Ewing would be gone, and they'd be others to evaluate to take his
place - ditto with Robinson...

JD

       Actually, I think I heard it was Adm Robinson that jammed Patrick's
    thumb while blocking a shot. HAd to have some stitches too.
                                    Denny

    This morning's Globe had a list of scores from the European Olympic
    qualifying -- the CIS (aka "Unified Team"), Slovenia, Germany, and
    Lithuania made the "final four".  Finals are next week...question:
    does only the winner out of the four qualify for the Olympics?
    
    
    py (who'd love to see Lithuania knock the CIS out of the running)

Ewing said it was Malone and the rim that got him. I heard that they're
working Malone and, get this, Christian Laettner at Center.

TTom

�And Mac, you still show a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to those
�'against the clock' sports.  
    
    So educate me.
    
�Stick to cynicism and rugby.
    
    I should probably give up on cynicism since I cain't hold a candle to
    you.

    Top 2 in each region I think...

    The Dream Team defeated Cuba by 79 this weekend in their first
    international match.  Next up is Canada.

       As many of you who know me are well aware I've been against the
      US sending a team of professionals to compete in men's basketball
      from the very beginning. Well that changed this weekend when I went 
      to visit my uncle Wendell at UMass Medical Center. When I ever saw 
      the look of pure joy on Uncle Wendell's face when he became the first 
      one in his ward to get an official Dream Team colostomy bag well, I 
      don't mind telling you the tears just started flowing. Aunt Mabel
      tells me that he's been wandering around the hospital showing his
      prized possession to anyone fortunate enough to cross his path. If
      the Dream Team can bring that much happiness to one old man with a
      failed digestive tract...
    

Hahahaha.  Rollward Tommy. Simply Rollward.

    I bet Uncle Wendall bagged a brick watching yesterday's excitement, eh
    Tommy?!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    

Tommy,

My condolences to your Uncle.  However, it's his own fault.

If he had had the brains to pick a surgeon who was familiar with
those fine laproscopy instruments from US Surgical, he'd still be
buying toilet paper.....


8^)

'Saw


PS  On the off chance that you really DO have an uncle who really DOES
    have a bag, please forgive my disrespect.....

    	Grandmama will be happy to get that gold too!

    
    
 >> On a semi-serious note, I was pleasantly surprised at the line up to
 >> shake opponent's hands after the game.  I really didn't expect to see
 >> that.  I figured our pros would simply do it the way they do "back
 >> home", ignore the other team and head right for the showers.  The 
 >> Olympic Spirit is alive! :-)
    
    That *was* a real nice touch. What better way to add insult to injury 
    than to totally embarass living hell out of your opponent and then force 
    them to be good sports about it. This game was just a small sample though 
    of the type of mind numbingly boring basketball that we're condemned to
    now that we've decided to 'send our best' and the really sad part is that
    not even the staunchest advocates (Mac, John Hendry, JD, etc) of the pros 
    playing will be able to sit through an entire game. Then again competitive
    basketball was never the issue was it ?
    

Tommy -

YOur right.  I probably won't sit through a full game.  And remember, while
I feel pros should be able to compete, I think they should have to try out -
and not get selected as if they were gods by some committee made up of
Madison Ave. execs.

JD

    Cuba just played Canada the night before and lost by a point. I dunno
    what they may have been thinking, but a loss is a loss, by anyone's
    standards, so they couls have been mailing it in. Who knows, if they
    meet the Cubans in the Lyimpics, the USA could be thinking back to this
    game and figgering they wouldn't even have to show up. Then....BAM!
    Cuba plays well over their heads and it looks like it's an entirely
    different team out there, and....
    
    Hey, it could happen. Didn't Cuba win a bronze medal in '88? If'n it
    did, bevembah where you heard it first.
    
    Tom 

       I agree! Those crafty Cubans have us where they want us now!!
                                 Denny

    I seldom sit through basketball games anyway, since basketball has
    gotten more and more boring to me the last few years.  Also, my desire
    to see the pros in the Games doesn't have much to do with my desire to
    see the US of A kick butt on the rest of the world.  It has to do with
    sending our best athletes when other countries in the world have been
    doing the same thing for the lasted few years.  That's all.
    
    John

    US won the Bronze medal in the 1988 Olympics. US beat Cuba for the
    bronze in the Pan American games in 1990.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    During the game yesterday they put up a graphic showing that Cuba's
    best finish in the Olympics was winning the bronze in '72.
    
    Joe

    From this morning's Boston Globe, scores from yesterday's European
    qualifying:
    
    CIS 88, Chechoslovakia 60 (30 points for Alexander Volkov)
    Germany 85, Israel 71 (Detlef Schrempf 29 points)
    Lithuania 99, Croatia 89 (Arvidas Sabonis 33 points 16 rebounds...for
    	some reason I thought Sabonis was no longer playing, don't mind
    	being wrong about it though :-) )
    Slovenia 91, Italy 78
    
    The paper didn't say who plays who next or when.
                                           
    
    py

    > (30 points for Alexander Volkov)
    
    I dunno, there's something about the name Volkov.  For some reason, I
    just can't visualize a basketball player.  More like a rassler... :-)
    
    Hawk
    

       I was thinking the exact same thing HAwk!
                                  Denny

    
    
    
    
            Go Lithuania.......  Silver medal is in your grasp..

I thought I heard that Stockton broke his leg in the game lasted night - did 
anyone else hear this?

>                        -< Stockton and Mike Leary... >-

Did Mike Leary break his leg????????



'Saw

    Mike Leary broke Stockton's laig?  Or, Stockton broke Mike Leary's
    laig?
    
    Hawk
    

    You did hear correctly that John Stockton broke his laig lasted night. 
    They are hoping for Stockton to be ready by the time the Games start.
    
    John
    
    PS - Mike Leary had nothing to do with Stockton's injury and I didn't
    even know Mike had a broken laig

>    PS - Mike Leary had nothing to do with Stockton's injury and I didn't
>    even know Mike had a broken laig


Somebody a few back said that Stockton AND Leary had broken laigs!


'Saw

    
    >    Slovenia 91, Italy 78
    
    Slovenly basketball ROOLZ!!
    

       Danny Ainge bit off Stockton's laig!!
                                      Denny

     Well the Dream Team blew away another opponent last night making
    Canada the recipient of a 45 point ass-whipping. This team just
    gets more and more entertaining with every game don't it ? I mean
    the Olympics haven't even started and we already have admissions by
    two defenders of the pros playing that they won't even bother to watch
    and who can blame them.  But it does raise the rather obvious question 
    of why they cared who played at all ? I know, I know it's because they 
    think the world's best should play and in basketball that means NBA 
    players. Well, I have news for 'em not only are the US's twelve best 
    players NBA players so are the world's twelve best. For that matter so 
    are the world's 300 best. This isn't going to be a tournament of the 
    "world's best" it's going to be twelve of the best players against a 
    bunch of mediocre teams and if you think that is as it should be then you 
    deserve to be strapped down ala the Ludeveco Procedure from 'A Clockwork 
    Orange' and be forced to watch the Dream Team against it's next inept
    opponent. 
              
    

    Slovenia's laig's broke too?!
    
    Hawk
    

    re Hawk:
    
    No, Ainge didn't break Slovenia's leg, that happened when Nikolai
    Volkov jumped off the top rope.  :-)
    
    
    py

    So, Tommy, where're we gonna go for tonight's game?  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

    
  >> So, Tommy, where're we gonna go for tonight's game?  :-)
    
     I'd rather watch Dinz make fart noises with his arm pits for an
    hour and a half than endure the drudgery of a Dream Team game.    
    

    re .410
    
    Why don't you get off your horse, huh? Did you ever follow the Soviet
    hockey prelim rounds when they used to beat up on Norway 19-1? Or how
    about the Cuban boxers who used to routinely clobber everyone in the
    Pan Am games? Or the cast of East German swimmers?
    
    Face it, we are catching up. You sound ashamed of the fact that the US
    has the best basketball players in the world. Why the heck should we
    apologize for this? 
    
    It's like the 1927 Yankees, knowing they were the best in baseball,
    feeling bad about beating up on the Red Sox and fielding their minor
    league team instead.
    
    Hey, in case you haven't noticed yet, the "world" has been using pros
    in the Olympics for years. The Alpine ski teams of Switzerland, Austria
    and, for heavens' sake Lichtenstien, could trounce the best the US has
    year after year. Should they feel guilty?
    
    Iffn you want true amateur representation by the US, perhaps we should
    send a bunch of junior high kids to Barcelona.
    
    Rich
    

    
    >> Why don't you get off your horse, huh? Did you ever follow the Soviet
    >> hockey prelim rounds when they used to beat up on Norway 19-1? Or how
    >> about the Cuban boxers who used to routinely clobber everyone in the
    >> Pan Am games? Or the cast of East German swimmers?
    
       Thank you , Rich for pointing out three countries that placed far
       too much emphasis on the Olympics and winning medals and thereby 
       making my point for me. 

     >> Face it, we are catching up. You sound ashamed of the fact that the US
     >> has the best basketball players in the world. Why the heck should we
     >> apologize for this? 
    
        What exactly are we catching up in ? We won by 79 and 45 points. How
        much catching up do we have to do ?

     >> It's like the 1927 Yankees, knowing they were the best in baseball,
     >> feeling bad about beating up on the Red Sox and fielding their minor
     >> league team instead.

        No, it's more like being the bully of the playground , getting your
        ass whipped and going home for your big brother.

     >> Hey, in case you haven't noticed yet, the "world" has been using pros
     >> in the Olympics for years. The Alpine ski teams of Switzerland, Austria
     >> and, for heavens' sake Lichtenstien, could trounce the best the US has
     >> year after year. Should they feel guilty?
    
        What's this sub-conscious thing all defenders of the Dream Team have
        with feeling guilty and apologising ?
        
    

   The 1958 US Olympic basketball team won it's 8 games by margins of 58,77,68,
41,62,30,63,and 34. The '60 team won it's 8 by 34,59,44,62,58,34,31 and 27.
                              Denny

       Make that '56 not '58!!

    Nyah I broke ma foot, not my laig and in the process broke my water.
    And I had nothing to do with slovelny John Stockton breaking Voilkov's
    Lithuanian laig!
    
    Listen, the whole point IMO to the Olmpics is to send your best
    athletes to compete. Just so happens that this year there seems to be
    no competition. So what do we do? Look at the anticipated level of
    our competetion and send a similarly talented group. So why don't
    we send the wheelchair BBall team since all our opponents seem
    mediocre in talent ( no offense to handicapped people, ah was in
    a wheelchair yesterday)!. You don't think the Russians did this when
    the sent their drug-enhanced athletes to the Olympics? Or do you
    think the East Germans thought twice about packing their she-males
    to compete? Big difference is that they used artificial methods.
    We're just sending OUR best athletes, no artificiality introduced.
    
    JMHO
    Trounce on,
    MikeL
    

    Russell must have been the starting center then.  Of course, Wilt came
    off the bench.

    	Yeah but Denny the '56 team had Bill "Greatest Winner Of All
    Time" Russell on the team, so what could you expect?
    
    				/Don

Olympic basketball, as it stands today, can trace everything back to the 
Russian's 51-50 "victory" in 1972 in Munich.   That's as clear a "before and 
after" bellwether moment as there will ever be in such a sport.

Prior to that monumental event, American "amateur" basketball teams kicked 
the living crap outta every other team on the planet every 4 years like 
clockwork.   Other countries "caught up" to us in 1972.   Yeah, sure, it took 
blatant referee favoritism to seal the USSR victory but the fact remained 
that they were within winnable range and had, in fact, caught up to the US 
regardless of the final score.   Competition had been born.

But, did the US change anything to meet that competition ???  Nope, we stayed 
with the same program every 4 years.  Yep, Dean Smith won a gold medal in 
Montreal in 1976 but few remember that we almost lost to Puerto Rico in the 
opening game.  Butch Lee went wild in that one (and would torture Snuffy 
again one year later in the 1977 NCAA Finals).   The 1976 win was seen as a 
vindication against the Munich screwjob but that was the *wrong* approach.  
We still igKnorred the fack that the rest of the world had caught up.

Then came 1980 and the Carter boycott.  There was *NO* guarantee that we'd 
win that gold medal in Moscow.  The Yugoslavs had a helluva team that year 
and beat an equally good Russian team.  Still no change in Camp USA.  Toss 
together a dozen top collegians, mix in a high-profile coach, stir once or 
twice and serve to the world.  Uh-uh, it wasn't gonna work anymore.

And so came 1984 and Bob Knight's turn to run roughshod over the free world 
in LA.   But this was an illusion, too.   Knight, as good a coach as he is, 
had to admit that his collection of talent (Jordan, Ewing, Tisdale, ...) was 
a once-in-a-lifetime freak.  Hell, he could afford to cut an obvious talent 
like Barkley and still demolish the free world teams.  And, of course, the 
Russians and thir allies were on the sidelines in a payback for 1980.

[Aside: I didn't hear any "apologizing" for the routs in 1984.  I guess they 
were okay since the players were "amateurs" ... yeah, right.]

And then came Thompson's flop in Seoul.  But was it a flop ???  If you watch 
that Russian loss again, you'll see a Soviet team that knew *exactly* how to 
play the international game and had both the talent and the experience to 
beat the raw unharnessed talent and coaching mediocrity of Thompson's squad. 

Seoul was 1976 all over again except we didn't survive the "scare" game like 
Snuff did against Puerto Rico.  The rest of the world had caught up and 
passed us while we had slept for the 16 years since Munich.

And so now we come to the Barcelona Dream Team.  I suppose it was inevitable 
given this country's obsession with the "quick fix" solution to all its 
problems.  Hey, we need to get the Iraqis outta Kuwait ... let's launch the 
cruise missles.   Yo, we need to stop the Japs from selling all their cars 
over here ... let's force 'em to import only their most expensive, 
option-laden models.   Yikes, we need to kick some Russian hoops ass so let's 
ask His Airness and a few of his pals to lace 'em up and do some of that 
tongue-stickin-out, joe-face highlight footage.  So what if we've sold out 
the amateur ideal ... we need some trophies, Jack.

We've got sound bite politics ... We might as well go for highlight film 
hoops.   But the "problem" ain't solved.   Sooner or later (probably later), 
the rest of the world *will* catch up to the NBA players.   There's nothing 
in our air or water that produces better hoopsters.   It will happen if 
we keep insisting on quick fixes like this one and igKnorr the grass roots 
development efforts.   

Hell, we invented volleyball too and saw that "lead" evaporate when we didn't 
pay attention to our development efforts.   Only after we'd gotten our butts 
kicked a few hundred times did we figure out that perhaps we ought to comb 
the SoCal beaches and find a couple of Valley Dudes and make a *NATIONAL* 
team out of 'em.    Since then, we've been untouchable on the volleyball 
court ... I enjoy watching Olympic volleyball more than any other team sport 
and I will do so again this summer.   I caught the first half of the Dream 
Team's romp over Fidel's Fellows and I doubt I'll watch much more of that 
kinda whupping.  I don't have to cause I'll see all the best plays on 
SportsCenter that night.

For me, the one truly positive aspect to the Dream Team is seeing Magic 
Johnson again.  He is really a joy to watch ... both on and off the court.  
The NBA will miss him more and more as each season goes by without him on the 
court.   He's everything good about hoops.

Bob Hunt

P.S.  And Larry Bird must be the whitest person God ever created.  Geez, 
doesn't he ever get outside and get some sun ???   Those USA whites make him 
look whiter than the Pillsbury doughboy.

    Tommy wants entertainment.  I guess we should have sent the Harlem
    Globetrotters.

    BTW - Stockton only has a stress fracture near his knee.

One point not mentioned, which could be another "bellwether" event is the
change in the college players attitude about the Olympics.

Prior to the 68 Olympics, the very best of the college crop tried out for
the Olympics. Then Big Lew Alcindor, Elvin Hayes, etc., decided for
purely personal reasons that they couldn't be bothered. Another era was
ushered in. 

Certainly the continued development of the rest of the world was a big
factor but this change was also important. The 84 team was a_aberation
but it's been a long time since the best amateur players were on the
Olympic hoops team.

TTom

    Given the emphasis on college hoops and pro hoops in this country, it
    will damn near impossible to have any sort of decent National Team. 
    These outfits simply won't let their guys be away for any decent length
    of time.  In any pro team sport, the closest thing we have to a
    National Team is the hockey team and that's because the college kids
    and marginal pros are allowed to give up a season to prepare for their
    Olympic effort.
    
    Unless the system is changed in this country, I don't know what we
    could do to get a true National Basketball Team.
    
    John
    
    PS - Wilt never played in the Olympics, I don't think.  Russell and KC
    Jones led the 1956 effort in Melbourne and Russell gave up part of his
    Celtics season to play there (1956 Olympics were in November and
    Russell didn't join the Celtics until December).  Chamberlain was at
    the University of Kansas then and had turned pro by the time of the
    1960 Olympics in Rome

    Well said, BobHunt. 
    
    This years DreamTeam games are a bit of a farce now, but in the
    years to come, the rest WILL catch up. Look at how many non-American
    players there are in the NBA now vs 10 years ago, and that should tell
    you something. Also note how many DIFFERENT countries are represented
    in the world's premier basketball league. 
    
    The Italian basketball League is still well behind the NBA, but it's
    the 2nd best pro league. A lot of border-line NBA players go there, and  
    those players are the best learning examples of European players. In
    Africa, there is a tremendous amunt of talent, but very little coaching
    and equipment. If players like Manute Bo, Diekembo Motumbo and Hakeem
    Aloujawan can influence young players there by doing clinics, donatig
    equipment etc. we will see more African players in the future. In fact
    there are quite a few already in US colleges. 
    
    In 20 years time we will be back where the US was in 1972. The rest of
    the world will have caught up enough to make things competitive. A
    reasonably talented, well-coached, well-disciplined team on a mission
    WILL beat the US in the Olympics if they continue to treat this as a
    "just-for-fun junket, let's hand-pick the team" kind of operation. If,
    however, they develop a national team that is a seperate entity from
    the NBA, with seperate managemnet/coaching and a limited tryout camp,
    then they migght have a chance.
    
    Ironically, the NBA is doing more to speed up the process of someone
    somewhere around the worls pulling off an incredible upset that will
    completely embarass the US than anything else.
    
    Tom 

    Heck, I'd have no problem sending the Globetrotters to Barcelona, in
    fack, I like the idea alot!  Meadowlark Lemon, Curley Neal, get Marques
    Haynes back, recruit Hawthorne Wingo!  Wow, what a line-up!  Skeery
    too!  :-)
    
    Hawk
    
    P.S.  Excellent, excellent reply there, Bob!
    

    
    The premise of the world catching up as evidence in behalf of the 
    professionals is only valid if you accept it, that is you accept that 
    losing is this terrible embarassment that is to be avoided at all 
    costs.  Personally, I could care less.  As much as I enjoy professional
    baseball, I'm looking forward to seeing the top college players in the
    Olympics before they start their pro careers, and if it means losing at
    our national pastime in the Olympics, then so be it.  Big deal...
    
    I guess I like the idea of one-time representation in the Olympics, 
    amateur or pro, and then it's time to move on.  The Olympics shouldn't
    be a career.
    
    glenn
    

    re: .430
    
    Just curious about one thing. Should this non-career thing apply only
    to US atheletes, or to players from all countries. Lots of countries
    have had the same players in olympic after olympic.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
   > Just curious about one thing. Should this non-career thing apply only
   > to US atheletes, or to players from all countries. Lots of countries
   > have had the same players in olympic after olympic.
    
    Obviously to everyone.  I'm not trying to say that the US is the
    problem, only that the original spirit of the games has been
    compromised and this is one of the reasons.  I don't know exactly when
    the trend started, but it used to be that an athlete generally
    competed once and then moved on to his life's work...
    
    glenn
    

 Other countries are already catching up to the NBA.  Didn't the Lakers
 struggle just a bit in that McDonald's tournament in Paris lasted fall ??? 
 And I seem to recall the Knicks barely won that thing when it was in
 Madrid the year or so before.   
 
 There are some damn good quality NBA players on several European squads. 
 Detlef Schrempf is no slouch.  Neither is Saronis Marcialonous (sp?) for
 Lithuania.  Neither of those two will be the least bit impressed by the
 Dream Team.
 
 Good point about the African players.  Geez, if a coupla Manute Bol's
 Watusi cousins and pals decided to really concentrate on hoops, we'd be
 looking at some serious height-age with a serious outlook.   A 7'-2" point
 guard, perhaps ???   Shudder ...
 
 As for a US "national" team for hoops, we should just send the current NBA
 champs.   I think these games would be a helluva lot more competitive and
 fun to watch if we were seeing Da Bulls playing instead of the Dream Team. 
 
 Paxson, Cartwright, Armstrong and so on aren't the best players in the
 world but they are part of the best *TEAM* on the planet today.  Send them
 instead.   So what if a really great champeenship team misses out (like
 say, for example, the 1994 Hornets) on Olympic Gold.   Too bad.  In 1996,
 we should send the 1996 NBA Champs.  Period.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S.  Christian Laettner must think he's died and gone to heaven.  
 Twelfth man on a 12 man team and it still feels good.   Gee, Mike, you
 were a little slow on that outlet pass.  Hey, Magic, do you mind boxing
 out on that guard so he doesn't get the O-board ???   Hey, Charles, pass
 the ball next time !!!   Unreal.

    Bob Hunt - excellent reply and analysis, as usual - an dats a fack!
    
    Clearly, 1972 was the turning point and, also, clearly, the US did
    little or nothing to change their approach to Olympic basketball since
    then.
    
    One thing keeps popping up in this string, though. The word amateur.
    And, as has been said (JD?, Mac?), this stems from the Olympic charter
    which, frankly, was written with elitism in mind. It is economically
    impossible for an athlete to remain amateur under the guise of the
    Olympic charter. 
    
    In many ways, the USA, UK, France, Canada and several other countries
    really tried to adhere to the original ideal. As did many African and
    Asian countries. 
    
    However, with the advent of the post WWII eastern bloc credo of using
    athletics as a banner for communism, the stakes changed. There was and
    is no way for athletes in the traditional "amateur" ranks to compete
    with a state subsidized Olympic factory.
    
    The equivalent to the old eastern bloc factories is professional
    sporting leagues. Like the European Soccer Leagues or NBA or NHL.
    
    Frankly, if an athlete makes his/her living on their athletic ability,
    it's OK, in my opinion, to see them compete against each other. 
    
    But Bob opened a door to an issue that could probably never be
    addressed. The way we approach the games. Is there any way we could
    cultivate a national basketball team for the sole purpose of playing in
    events like the Pan Am Games or Olympics when the NBA looms as an
    alternative? I don't think so and, for a talented player, he/she should
    not have to be confronted with that type of choice.
    
    Unfortunately, the closets thing we have to a national basketball team
    is in womens' basketball. This is because the Cheryl Millers and Dawn
    Staleys of the world can't make money playing the game. So, their
    chance at the gold ring is in the Olympics.
    
    I will watch the womens' Olympic games with more enthusiasm than the
    mens although I will root for both US squads to win.
    
    Rich
    

    I guess waht I'm having trouble with is the concept of a "National
    Team." Other countries make the distinction between the Olympics or a 
    "Canada Cup" or World Cup (soccer/hockey) team, which consists of the 
    best pro players available from a given country. 
    
    In soccer, they are able to avoid this issue by stipulating that any
    country's "Olympic" team is for players under 23. This way, you don't
    get the same players representing the Olympic team time after time, but
    the process is one of constant rebuilding. The "A" national teams are
    the ones where there are no rules as to who can pay (other than declared 
    nationality rules), and very often it is the same nucleus of players
    together for more than 4 years.
    
    With the growing internationalization of basketball, perhaps the future
    would include a similar rule for basketball Olympians, with a World Cup
    type event in odd years for the pros of various countries. This way the
    college or young NBA players would get their one chance, then, if they
    are REALLY good, they can play for the "A" national team with the
    equvalents of this year's Dream Team later on.
    
    Tom

Good note Bob.  As I've stated, I wanted tryouts.

Anyway, not only was 72 a turning point, but so was 1984, in general, for
US interest in the Olympics.  The L.A. Olympics were unashamedly jingoisitic-
so much so, that even though folks will balk at the idea, the last Olympics
to have such blatant shows of nationalism happened in a sleepy town called
Berlin back in the 1930's.

Americans lapped up the Ueborroth commercial Olympics.  Untethered by 
competition from those 'cheating, juiced-up commies', the USA won 
medals in events that we normally don't even qualify for the finals  in.
And the public lapped it up.  

The Dream Team isn't about bringing home the gold or restoring American
honor in hoops  (puleeze) - it's about bullying (as TB has said) and fits
in nicely with the current string of events to be 'proud to be 'merican':
Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm, Dream Team.   

And,  a few notes have made comments about the eastern teams being drugged,
she-males, etc.

While the US didn't have the sports apparatus that the eastern bloc had, one
would have to be living under a rock to not think that our fine boys and 
girls were guilty of performance enhancements.   I can name a slew of 
track athletes alone that have either been found guilty (including shot
put world record holder Randy Barnes) or have been considered to have been on
them and not caught (Flo-Jo).   And that wasn't the only sport.   

I still say, send the best, but make 'em earn it.  Just say no to corporations
deciding who goes...

JD

� Anyway, not only was 72 a turning point, but so was 1984, in general, for
� US interest in the Olympics.  The L.A. Olympics were unashamedly jingoisitic-
� so much so, that even though folks will balk at the idea, the last Olympics
� to have such blatant shows of nationalism happened in a sleepy town called
� Berlin back in the 1930's.

 Good analogy.  The LA Olympics were unquestionably the high-water mark for
 Reagan's Presidency.  Which was ironically fitting for such a telegenic
 politician.   Everything slid downhill for him after that.   
 
 Fortunately, for innocent children the world over, Reagan just liked to
 fall asleep in his staff meetings rather than think up new ways to wipe
 out entire races like Herr Hitler did.   Hitler was the very first world
 leader to grasp the *political* importance of staging the Olympic Games. 
 
 In a lot of ways, they haven't been the same since.   Politics and sports
 are still mistakenly intermixed ... Oh, you naughty Serbs and Croats,
 shame on you for killing each other ... just for that you can't send your
 triple jumpers to Barcelona.  Now, behave yourselves.
 
 � I still say, send the best, but make 'em earn it.  Just say no to
 � corporations deciding who goes...
 
 Like I said, we shoulda sent Da Bulls.  They earned it.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Rich, shame on you for rooting for the USA, you jingoistic, flag waving
    fool you.
    
�Anyway, not only was 72 a turning point, but so was 1984, in general, for
�US interest in the Olympics.  
    
    I wonder how much longer the Olympics would have survived if Uberroth
    hadn't enlisted the help of the corporate world.

    OK fro all a youze on the "Send da Bulls" (or whoever else wins the NBA
    title that year) bandwagon..... Suppose the NBA champ has a few key
    players who are <GASP!> Furriners!?!?! Yikes! 
    
    OK, It hasn't happened yet, but there are more than a few key foreign 
    NBA players who could easily be a very good reason why "Team X" wins the 
    title in a_Olympic year. Suppose the Warriors win in 1996 with
    Macaroni-us, Mullin, and a Serb-to-be-named later, with Vlade Divac
    coming off the bench, not to mention several other talented Americans. OK, 
    so we send the Warriors to the 'Limpics, but if you take away their 
    foreign players (who would play for their OWN countries, BTW) they aren't 
    close to the team that was good enough to win the NBA title. 
    
    Tom
    
    

Good point, Tom.

The way I figure it is this is the way this team was chosen. In the
memorable words of the General, I think everyone should just sit back and
enjoy it.

TTom

    Mac - I didn't see the smiley face but I think it was implied.
    
    Anyway, the only time I chanted USA - USA was in 1980 when the US beat
    the Soviets in hockey. I was living in Franklin, MA at the time and
    everyone refused to listen to any broadcast with the score. We all
    waited for the delayed telecast.
    
    Almost immediately, just as Jim Craig was looking into the crowd and
    asking, "Where My Fathah?", cars drove by my house honking horns and
    waving flags. The were impromptu celebrations and mini-parades all over
    the place. Al Michael's "Do you believe in Miracles?" was ringing in
    everyone's ears.
    
    That event, more than any other puts me in a situation where I almost
    wish we could send a college team instead of the Dream team. The fact
    that a bunch of college kids beat the finast hockey team in the
    universe, to me, was the essence of the Olympics. Will, guts and heart
    triumphed over the machine.
    
    Although I have cheered for many other US Olympians, nothing will ever
    match the enthusiasm and ultimate gratification of that one event over
    12 years ago.
    
    Rich
    

 Yeah, a very good point, DreadTom.  I completely forgot about that.   
 
 I still think the current NBA Champeens would make a damn good national
 "team" for any given Olympics year in question but, you're right, foreign
 nationals on an NBA champ would complicate things quite a bit.
 
 Not an impossible problem but it would have to be dealt with.  
 
 If Vlade Divac was an NBA champ and wanted to play for whatever's left of
 Yugoslavia in 1996, then we'd just have to replace him with, say, Hakeem
 Olajuwon ... that is, provided we could railroad his citizenship papers
 through INS.  :-)
 
 Bob Hunt

    
    re .441
    
    Somebody hand me a tissue.
    
    
    
    On a more serious note...
    

     I keep reading in here about the growing 'internationalization'
    of the sport and that the rest of the world is catching up. Yet
    the only evidence offered is a handful of NBA players from other
    countries - the best of whom got where they are by playing in the 
    US and in the NBA with the world's best. Now, unless the NCAA and
    the NBA are going to officially establish themselves as basketball
    training grounds for the world then this whole 'the rest of the 
    world is catching up' spiel is overblown.
    

    Yabbut, Hakeem would/should be playing for Nigeria.... They shouldn't
    bend the rools just to steal away the only first-rate player they have
    in a country that would have trouble qualifying from it's region, jest
    so he could run up the score on some poor country like....Nigeria.
    There are enough American players to do that.  
    
    re .441 I know the feeling exactly. So, just to turn the tables a bit,
    imagine the basketball equivalent of [some foreign country] with a
    makeshift lineup of, say, one starting NBA player who is not really a
    star, a couple of guys who played at a Div I. US collij (but not good
    enough to be drafted), a few guys playing in the pro leagues in Italy 
    or Spain, and the rest local amateurs who learned their hoops from 
    watching NBA games via sattelite.....
    
    This team saunters into the Omni, home arena of the world famous
    Atlanta Hawks (they even know the names of the teams "over there"),
    given NO chance at beating the Dream Team. Maybe the USA tanned their
    furrin hides a few weeks earlier in a_exhibition... But this team well
    coached in the nuances of NBA-style ball from watching that VCR, and is
    smart enough to know they cain't out-Air his Airness, so instead they
    hustle for every loose ball and play with a high level of emotion and
    intensity in the most important basketball game they have ever played.
    
    Less than a minute to go and it's a one point game.... {You can fill in
    the rest}
    
    If something like this ever happens (and that's a BIG IF), the real 
    winner will be the sport of Basketball. Sure, us Americans would feel 
    disappointed that we shoulda beat an inferior skilled team, (and there
    would be a motion to bring back Dean Smith to coach if we were going to
    choke:-), but if this were to happen it would make basketball a more 
    popular sport than soccer worldwide.... And this is coming from a
    soccer fan...
    
    Tom    

    Notes collision --- re .443
    
    Tommy,
    The rest of the world IS getting better. No doubt the USA is the best
    basketball nation on earth and will continue to be that way for a long
    time. BUT... Other teams can and will find a way to beat the US in the
    Olympics some time down the road if we continue to place all the
    emphasis on winning a NBA/NCAA Championship. The current hand-pick team
    is a perfect example of how they are not taking anyone else seriously,
    which, in this case, they don't really have to.
    
    If you wanted to make an "All-foreign" NBA team, you could put together
    a decent NBA team. Not to say they'd beat da Bulls, but they'd be
    better than most. Like it or not, the NBA/NCAA *IS* a developing ground
    for the better foreign players. These guys go back home and teach the
    moves, techniques, strategies, etc. to the folks back home, and that in
    turn helps local players get better.
    
    It may take a while for the Dream Team to get beat, but some day it
    WILL happen, and it will be the best thing for basketball, even if it
    will cause a lot of soul-searching and agonizing on how we Americans
    view the sport. 
    
    I've said it a million times before, but this is a mirror of Canada's 
    attitude toward international hockey until the pros played the Russians 
    for the first time in 1972. It caused a LOT of angiush and hand-wringing 
    and embarassment that someone else who had only been playing the game for 
    30 years could teach such a thorough, difinitive lesson to the people 
    that *invented* the game, but overall, the sport is MUCH better off as a 
    result of this in the long run. 
    
    Who knows, maybe some foreign coach will develop a style of play that
    will add a new dimension to basketball that had never been seen or even
    considered before. David Stern looks at overseas markets as a source
    for income, but the game itself could view it as a source for new ideas. 
    
    Tom

Wonder if the Canadiens once felt they were 'uncatchable' in hockey..

JD

(That's the Canadiens as in Canada, and not the NHL Montreal team...though I
suppose they may have wondered that a few times...)

 Remember the 1983 America's Cup ???   Best thing that ever happened to
 ocean sailing was Australia II's win over Dennis Connor's Liberty boat in
 October 1983.  That put the starch in those NYYC boys but good.
 
 And the 1972 Canada Cup is a good parallel, too.  It wouldn't bother me
 one bit if the Dream Team got a huge scare sometime in the next month or
 so.  It may just happen.
 
 Bob Hunt

    JD,
    I'm sure the Canadians felt that they were uncatchable but look at
    the population base. Once they saw the CCCP surprise them in '72,
    it should have woken them up immediatly. The Soviets had a much
    larger population base to draw from than the Canadians. And many of
    the Soviets' BEST athletes play hockey. The Canadians will continue
    to produce great hockey players, but the NHL and hockey in general will
    have much more of an international flavor because of simple numbers.
    The US produces great hockey players also but not in the same numbers
    as Russsia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, etc. because of the limited 
    population base to draw from as well as the fact that the BEST athletes
    generally speaking, are not playing hockey.
    Now if we look at the demographics for basketball, can we draw similar
    conclusions? You guys tell me, I'm not that versed in the international
    scope of the game. We can see that we in the US can draw our players
    from a HUGE population pool as well as having our BEST athletes play
    the sport. This may be the case in smaller countries like Cuba, and
    Yugoslavia to name a couple, where I presume some of their BEST
    athletes play basketball. How about CIS, Lithuania, Spain, etc.?
    Can the rest of the world catch up with us?  In time, possibly if
    the sport is marketed/systemized correctly. 
    
    MikeL
    

�The current hand-pick team
�    is a perfect example of how they are not taking anyone else seriously,
    
    Sorry, but I don't understand this statement at all.
    
    JD, are you saying that if it weren't for McDonalds, Nike, et.al., that
    Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird would be mediocre
    basketball players?  There is a reason corporate America wants these
    guys on their team (not that I'm buying JD's conspiracy theory).
    
    Who was on the selection committee?

    >Who was on the selection committee? 
      Ronald MacDonald and MArs Blackman?
                                 Denny

    
    
    Wasn't the pro/amateur issue voted on by some olympic committee?  I 
    heard it wasn't even close.  It seemed most of the teams felt the 
    competition would only help them improve.  I don't see how it can't.
    
    In fact, it may be sooner than you think.  All it will take is a 
    member of the "dream team" having a serious injury, career shortening.
    The line for volunteers may just shorten after a while.
    
    Meanwhile, other teams will improve and...
    
    			Bob Cohen

 You see, what we're really doing here with this Dream Team thang is making
 up for all those embarassing losses in the luge to those get-a-life Swiss
 and German dudes.
 
 Has to be ...
 
 Bob Hunt

Mac -

I'll ask you a question.  Do you seriously believe that the picking of
the dream team was not influenced by corporate sponsers?  Here's another one.
Do you think it was merely coincidence that the first Dream Team commercial
was release almost simultaneously with the announcing of the team?

Here's another one:

If tryouts were held, do you think Larry Bird would have been an automatic 
pick?

Here's another one:

DO you think the players are doing this for pride and country, or for the
prospects of more endorsements?

Here's another one:

From what I gather, Rugby isn't an American sport, and the US gets beat by
the best teams in the world pretty regularly, right?  Do you expect that at
some time, the Americans have a shot at being the best - an equal to the
studs (Which I gather are New Zealand, Australia, and from what I remember,
the South Africans and others....)?

Do you think some chaps in the British Commonwealth scoffed at one time at
the notions of American ruggers being their equal?

Has American rugby (internationally) gotten more respect as interest in
rugby has increased - you know more players, etc....  

See any possibility that some hoops playing nation may be treading the same
ground.

JD

    European Olympic Qualifying Update:
    
    Since yesterday's note, I found out that it's an 8-team round robin,
    top four go to Barcelona.
    
    Yesterday's scores:
    
    Italy 78, Czechoslovakia 74
    Slovenia 88, Germany 76
    Lithuania 95, Israel 85
    Croatia 85, CIS 81
    
    Standings through 3 games:
    
    Lithuania 3-0
    Slovenia 2-1
    Italy 2-1
    Germany 2-1
    Czechoslovakia 1-2
    CIS 1-2
    Croatia 1-2
    Israel 0-3
    
    
    py

>From what I gather, Rugby isn't an American sport, and the US gets beat by
>the best teams in the world pretty regularly, right?  Do you expect that at
>some time, the Americans have a shot at being the best - an equal to the
>studs (Which I gather are New Zealand, Australia, and from what I remember,
>the South Africans and others....)?

I can take a shot at answering this.


If Rugby in America can achieve some of the following things, then
they can ultimately compete on a level with that of the Seven (well
Eight now) upper echelon teams (Wales, Scotland, England, Ireland, Australia,
New Zealand, France, South Africa).

It would take a national sponsor, first of all, because all of this stuff
costs money.  Rugby is an amateur sport, and the players foot some of their
own bill, but sponsorship makes it easier (similar in a way to sponsorship
in auto racing).

It would take a rugby program of development at younger ages.  A lot
of players who take up rugby in college have played football, and
there are a lot of football skills that must be unlearned to become
a good rugger.

I looke at the US soccer program.  It is now moving up in the world.
Rugby, with some heads up leadership, can achieve the samet thing, but
it certainly won't happen overnight.



>Do you think some chaps in the British Commonwealth scoffed at one time at
>the notions of American ruggers being their equal?

Sure. Just as some Americans have laughed at Japanese and Russians
playing baseball. 


>Has American rugby (internationally) gotten more respect as interest in
>rugby has increased - you know more players, etc....  

Yes.  The US team has gained more respect.  Not a great deal more, but
more.

In fact, when Kevin Swords was chosen to the All-WorldCup XV during the
recent World Cup, as Captain, it was a great day for American Rugby.

At least ONE of our ruggers is recognized as World Class.




Just some of my opinions,
fw

    Sorry, but what is "CIS"?
    
    Hawk
    

    I'm getting the feeling that this year's Dream Team will be the last.
    
    Stockton is probably out with a stress fracture. Ewing had a thumb
    injury. That's what has happened in just 2.5 weeks.
    
    Robinson is, perhaps, trying to come back too soon after his injury and
    Bird continues to "rest" his back.
    
    I'm thinking that NBA GM's are taking a hard look at this and will,
    most likely, take some steps to try and prevent certain players from
    participating in future Olympics.
    
    Can you imagine the uproar in Chicago if Jordan was injured against
    Brazil? Or, how would Phoenix feel if Barkley got his leg broken while
    getting clocked by some Slovenian?
    
    The USA basketball committee will have to make up their minds by 7/15
    or 7/16 on the final roster. Will they keep Bird and Stockton? Will
    Ewings and Robinson's injuries be OK by that time? If replacements are
    named, will college players from the developmental squad be chosen?
    
    
    Rich
    

    CIS was Commonwealth of Independent States made up of the republics
    from the now defunct USSR. Who knows if it will be a viable entity
    or even a loose confederation in the future.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
       CIS = Commonwealth of Independant States(Russia Ukrane Siberia
    etc...)
    
    
                Vilnius I'll be there.
    Kielbasa, Glumpkies and Wodka in hand......
    
    
            For the silver medal celebration that is.....

       Lots of these guys play in Summer leagues where i'd say it's at
    least as easy to get an injury as it is in the Olympics.
                                 Denny

     JD, Mac and Saw,
      
     Please do not sully the Olympic basketball note with discussions 
     of rugby, soccer or any other un-American activities. Thank you.

     Tommy Brydie
    

    The CIS national team looks more and more like a temporary entity. A
    lot of the former republics are pushing to have their own national
    teams, which will probably be the case 4 years from now if this ever
    gets sorted out. This would be similar to say, Scotland being
    politically part of the UK, but has it's own national teams in soccer, 
    rugby, etc.
    
    Tom

    >	The CIS national team looks more and more like a temporary entity.
    
    As for as the Olympics go, the "Unified Team" is just a one shot deal.
    Starting with the 1994 Winter Games, there will be separate teams from
    each of the former republics.
    
    
    py

    You haven't answered any of mine, but:
    
�Do you seriously believe that the picking of
�the dream team was not influenced by corporate sponsers?  
    
    Yeah, look at all those endorsements Laettner already has under his
    belt.  As for the rest of those players, the reason the corporate
    sponsors love them is that they are some of the best basketball players
    in the world.
    
�Do you think it was merely coincidence that the first Dream Team commercial
�was release almost simultaneously with the announcing of the team?
    
    No, I think the corporate sponsors were given access to the information
    before the public was.
    
�If tryouts were held, do you think Larry Bird would have been an automatic 
�pick?
    
    For what Larry has done for US basketball, yes, I think they still
    would have found a way to put him on the team.
    
�DO you think the players are doing this for pride and country, or for the
�prospects of more endorsements?
    
    Pride and country must have something to do with it, otherwise they
    wouldn't be risking their careers over a simple piece of hardware. 
    Most of those guys already have megabuck contracts with the NBA and
    their sponsors.
    
�See any possibility that some hoops playing nation may be treading the same
�ground.
    
    What I don't see is the relevance of the question.  Perhaps you have me
    confused with someone else.

The current USA team, however it was chosen or shoulda been chosen, beat
Panama lasted night, 112-52. The backup point guard was Michael Jordan
who went 4-4 from the 3 point line. Chris Mullins led with 19 points, 4-5
treys.

Even though Stockton's leg is broken and he's out for this tourney, he
and Daly expect him to be on the team for the Olympics. The deadline for
submitting the Olympic rosters is July 15.

Meanwhile, it's back to the blow outs. Tonight's victim is Argentina. The
game will be show at 10 on TNT. Here's hoping that it doesn't conflict
with Buckaroo Banzai.

TTom

      The Dream Team aka the Cardiac Kids just squeaked by Panama
     last night to the tune of 60 points. It's beginning to look
     like NBC is going to have to air a disclaimer before future
     Dream Team games warning folks with heart conditions that the
     sheer edge of the seat excitement might be too much for them.
     Maybe they could build a whole ad campaign around it like
     Bill Murray was planning to do with his Christmas special in 
     'Scrooged'. They could show some poor slob being wheeled out 
     the door and into an ambulance on a stretcher with an oxygen 
     mask on his face with a voice over going, "Heart stopping
     action ?!? You betcha !!!" Or they could show some guy watching
     a game from his hospital bed and just as Michael Jordan hits
     the trey to send the game against Pakistan into overtime the
     poor guy's heart monitor flat lines. Yeah, that's the ticket.
     
    

    Tommy, I couldn't tell from your reply but, did you watch the game or
    watch Dinz making fart noises with his armpits last night?
    
    Hawk
    

    Tommy, why weren't you around showing us the light when Sweden was
    beating up on poor little Italy in hockey in the last Winter Games?

Actually, I'm pretty pissed off that these countries aren't giving us
much of a game.

I mean everyone is always complaining about the good ol' USA.  So along
come these little teeny countries who are always shooting off their mouths, 
and they have a golden opportunity to whup us but good, and show the world
how bad the USA is, and what do they do?  Roll over and die.

I mean, these guys could be trying LOTS harder.

Don't get on the Dream Team!  Get on their competition for not working
hard enough!


I'll bet if they instituted a rule where if you get down by 45 or more
points, they shoot one guy from the losing team, you'd see some close
action.  I'll just bet we would!


'Saw

Cuba beat the U.S. in baseball yesterday, 16-1.  According to news reports,
there is tremendous pressure on Fidel to replace the current baseball team
with high school kids so that the Cuban people, and the world, can witness
some exciting, close baseball games.  

In a related story, the government of Rumania apologized for sending Nadia
Comenich to the 1976 Olympics and embarrassing the rest of the world with
all those tens.  A government spokesman said, "We should have sent Nadia's
understudy instead.  She might not have won as many medals, but it would
have made for closer competition, and that's what really counts."

Ken

    
    re .470
    
     Why is it that when people try and defend the Dream Team they always
    point to countries whose economies are in a shambles,countries where 
    the seeds of hope can find no purchase, countries where tyrants appease
    the enslaved masses by pointing to a little piece of medal as evidence
    of rightness of their rule ? Is that what we've become here in the US ? 
    Excuse me, I think I'm going to have a good cry for myself.
    
    

    So what exactly is your point, Tommy?  That it's in bad taste to send
    your best to an athletic competition?  Should we tell NBA teams to stop
    drafting those All Americans and go after the Div. IV players so as to
    give the little guy a chance and have some exciting games?

    	Argentina tonight.  I wonder if Evita will be watching?

    ...so if these guys are only on the team to rake in endorsement bucks
    we cain look for all the injured players to use that as an excuse not
    to have to play now right? After all, they're already in the
    commercials and their pictures are already on the trading cards and
    Slurpee cups!
                                      Denny

    
    Hey, lighten up a bity on Tommy.  If ya wanna see a little guy have
    some exciting games, you can watch my son's t-ball games!  ;^)
    
    After being outa here for a week and having 799+ notes to work my way
    through, one thing struck me about this particular topic.  Many notes
    back somebody posted the winning margins for the late 50's and early
    60's US teams.  The margins seem to be almost identical to what the DT
    is winning by now. Right?
    
    OK, so 30+ years ago our college studs were kicking butt bigtime - we
    were many levels ahead of the world.  Today, the rest of the world
    seems to have risen to the level of our collegates of 30 years ago.
    I have every reason to believe that in 20 years or so, the rest of the
    world will advance to the level of today's professional basketball
    players.  I doubt the NBA level will get much better (point of
    diminishing returns).
    
    The 'merican sports fan (as a generalization, IMO) community as a
    whole, DOESN'T want competition.  They want good old stomp 'em, blowout
    crushing wins!  Case in point, growing up in "THE CITY" area, I always
    went to the Millrose games in Madison Square Garden (11 years
    straight).  In many (most) races when the runners were nit and tuck
    close, swapping leads and really dueling, the croud was (mostly) "ho
    Hum....".  BUT whenever a runner would take a 1/2 lap lead or a 1 lap
    lead or seem to be on a world record pace, the place would go
    absolutely nuts!  Miss the record by 1/10th of a second and I've seen
    the runner boo'ed!!!!
    
    Folks, the DT isn't about competition, it's about the attitude of
    "'merican superiority" in relation to the ROW.
    
    hth,
    
    I remain,
    finished digressing,
    Kev
    

    So what do we do Kev,
    Continue to play collegians, clearly for years not our best, and
    play DOWN to the level of our competition? Why? We send our best,
    and if they happen to prove they are vastly superior, that's sport.
    And I would love to see a close competetive game, but I can accept
    the blowouts because it accuratly reflects the level of talent of
    our BEST. It gives our opponents a chance to see our best and strive
    to match/beat it. And don't give me that American arrogance/ugliness
    jive. That's bull. I'm sure some of our Olympic team particpants are
    going to get their butts kicked by worthy Olympians of other countries.
    And that's sport also. We send our best but they losde out to superior
    competition. We strive to match/beat. I will agree with JD on the
    point that tryouts for the Dream Team roster would have been more fair,
    but the final makeup of the team would be so similar; we sent our
    BEST!
    How quickly we forget the 1980 Winter Olympics. Everybody and their
    brudder was conceding the gold to the USSR with the rest of the
    world vying (sp) for the silver and bronze. Did anyone tell the
    Soviets to send a more " competetive" team so that the contest for
    the hockey gold would be more fair? No way! Everyone accepted the
    fact the the Soviets were sending their best, admittedly superior
    to all others, and we all know the rest. Hey, maybe if Russia had
    sent the Vladivostok Vandals to the Olympics because they seemed
    the be a "equal" to the others, they might have won the Gold!!
    Beware, Dream Team!
    
    MikeL
     

    Good note, Kev.
    
    That's exactly why I wouldn't mind seeing someone give the yanks a game
    every now and then. I also realize it ain't gonna happen for a while,
    but once it does, it will be good for the sport. The most ironic thing 
    about this "American superiority" complex is that it doesn't take much 
    to become an American. Unless you are a native American Indian, your 
    ancestors came from one of those foreign countries we love to put down 
    
    I remember Matt Biondi swimming in the '88 games, and he had already
    won a medal at this point. The announcers were gushing all over him in
    the usual way. Don't remember which event it was, but Biondi kinda
    dogged it at the end, and a guy from Surinam nipped him at the wire. I
    was glad to see it, mainly because Biondi had a cavalier attutude that
    he woud still win, no matter what. It was the thrill of a lifetime for 
    the Surinamese guy, and it was also good to see someone else win for a 
    change. I dunno if any other Americans felt this way. BTW, the
    Surinamese guy was a swimmer at some US college, and that's really
    where he got a lot of his training, race competition, coaching, etc.   
    
    Tom

    
    > So what exactly is your point, Tommy?  That it's in bad taste to send
    > your best to an athletic competition?  Should we tell NBA teams to stop
    > drafting those All Americans and go after the Div. IV players so as to
    > give the little guy a chance and have some exciting games?
    
    I think the point has been made again and again and again that it's not
    an issue of pure competitiveness or "sending your best" or "everybody
    else is doing it" but rather that sending accomplished, celebrated 
    professionals who may or may not have passed up an earlier chance at
    the Olympics to move on to the business of making big money at their 
    profession IS NOT IN THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT.  I don't think pure amateurism
    is fair or even necessary, but I would like to see some sacrifice and
    dedication to the pursuit of the sport for itself, and I just happen to
    think that while no apologies are necessary from those wanting to make
    big money from their sport, they should be required to make that choice 
    versus participation in the Olympics or move on and forever forfeit it.
    
    In this particular case this violation of the Olympic spirit happens to
    result in the worst of all possibilities in the form of an ugly, 
    grossly uncompetitive series of boring mismatches, but that needn't be 
    the case for the Dream Team venture to be anti-Olympian.  It shouldn't
    matter...
    
    glenn
    

    Wait... Buckaroo's on tonight?
    

Mac -

So Larry Bird made it on his past accomplishments, and not necessarily on
his worth right now.  Doesn't seem to jibe with how athletes are usually chosen
to compete in the games.  Oh, that's right, he plays a game with a ball, so
that's different.  

He's not even the best player on the Celtics anymore (see Lewis, Reggie), let
alone one of the top 12 in the USA.    

Mike L. -

Hey, send the best.  But as I've said, did we send the absolute best - or
just a bunch of big names to appease the commerical interests?


re others:

face it, there are some folks who don't watch the Olympics for competition,
they watch it solely to get some woodies over seeing the Ol' Glory raised and
a gold medal won.   Too bad, they miss a lot of good action with that attitude.
Also, it's always amazing how when other countries win, its by cheating, etc.

To whomever about Nadia C:

Doesn't count.  Using the Mac the Moderator rules,
she only competes against judges, doesn't use a ball, so therefore, it
doesn't count.

JD

Glenn, you don't think people like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have 
sacrificed and shown a dedication to the sport of basketball?  We're
talking about people who have spent an incredible amount of time on
improving their games, year in and year out -- year round.  And, I 
might add, people who are largely responsible for the tremendous increase
in popularity of basketball worldwide over the past decade.  

Why should they be told that they have to make a choice between pursuing
a lucrative career in the field they most love and excell in and playing
in the Olympics?  Why should a player's desire to compete at the highest
level prohibit him from competing at the world level in the Olympics?

It seems to me that those who are bashing the Dream Team are also engaging
in a bit of condescension toward the rest of the world.  Why are you assuming
that basketball fans in, say, Italy do not want to watch the best basketball
players in the world?  From everything I've heard, the excitement about
the NBA players competing this year extends well beyond the United States.
Give sports fans in these other countries some credit; basketball fans like
to see great basketball, regardless of who is playing.  I'm sure most of
us enjoy watching Olympic events even if the U.S. does not have a competitive
entrant in the events.  Same goes for the rest of the world.

I fail to see what amateur/professional status has to do with the Olympic
spirit.  Why does it violate the Olympic spirit to have the world's greatest
athletes participate?

Ken

    re .477

    Been said already.



    re .478

    That 1980 Olympic hockey analogy has been beaten to death in here which
    would be fine except that the chances of someone beating the Dream Team
    are infinitesimally higher.


    re .479

    Yeah, yeah, yeah some day the rest of the world will catch up and some 
    day I'm going to spend a weekend in Vegas with all four members of En 
    Vogue.

 
    re .480

    Well said, Glenn.


    re .481

    Yes.

 
    re. 482

    Just can't bring yourself to admit that you were wrong about sending
    the pros can you, JD ? 
    
    
    re .483
    
    You're right. You've turned me around on this whole Dream Team thing.
    
    Un ! ('Un !' is my take on this whole 'Not !' thing) 

    No one's trying to turn your viewpoint around, Tommy. You've 
    presented your opinion on the subject, one which I disagree, but
    that's the stuff of sports. I'll be quite honest with you, I don't
    find the basketball games very entertaining beacause of the
    mismatches, but neither would I find a cricket match between Pakistan
    and the Us entertaining either because of that mismatch. I didn't
    find it written anywhere that the playing field in the Olympics
    had to be level. I finds it a unique time to watch all athletes
    in different sports no matter what their talenty level. And I assume
    as Ken pointed out that much of thw world would love to watch the
    US basketball team perform. They are a highly talented, superior-
    performing sport team. Isn't that what the world likes t see in
    this exchange, extremely-skilled athletes performing at their best?
    
    And I would agree with you that in comparison to the 1980 Winter
    Olympics, the odds of beating this US BBall team are much more
    infinitesmal than beating the Soviets. But what does that prove or
    tell us? That we should wade in with one arm tied behind our
    backs ( wouldn't make any difference in the results) and not
    send our best?  Nope, IMO, whether or not the selection process
    was correct, we are sending our best, which is correct and our right.
    
    We agree to disagree.
    
    MikeL
    

    MikeL,
    
    I guess my point is that no matter what my personal opinion is about
    the pro's in the 'pics, the fact remaiins they're there and nothing I
    say or do will ever change that trend.  I was just trying to see things
    from a "objective" perspective.
    
    I caught about 7 minutes of Sunday's trashing right abter the halftime. 
    What I saw was A) some pretty incredible basketball by the DT.  It was
    pretty good stuff, especially that one play by His Airness with the
    three defenders hanging on him and that backwards falling one handed
    toss for 2 points and B) there's no team on the planet gonna beat these
    guys (if they stay healthy).
    
    I was also disturbed by the thought that the shoe is on the other foot
    with these guys on the team.  What I mean to say is the 1980 Hockey
    team, made up of a bunch of kids, beat (primarily) the Russians and how
    extatic and happy I was that we won.  See any similiarity?  I usually
    root for the underdog (no suprise to most of you) and I really love the
    intensity of competition.  With this team, anything less than the gold
    is total failure - they have no way to go but down.  How can I really
    sit on the edge of my seat and root for them?  Rather I see myself with
    half hearted interest doing a "ho Hum".  Since I don't do "ho Hum's", I
    don't see myself sitting down and watching the anticipated romp.
    
    This is a very complex situation and depending on where one is coming
    from, it is/is not correct to send the pro's.  I'd prefer to see no 
    pro's because I'm a "romantic type" who likes competition first and if
    it's good competition, I don't often care who wins.  Sure, I'll root
    for my team but it's not a do or die rooting.  It's alot like me
    telling my son as long as he did his best that's what's important. 
    Winning is nice but it's not everything.
    
    <preparing for incoming>
    
    ;^)  
    
    I remain,
    a hopeless romantic,
    Kev
    

    
> Glenn, you don't think people like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have 
> sacrificed and shown a dedication to the sport of basketball?  We're
> talking about people who have spent an incredible amount of time on
> improving their games, year in and year out -- year round.  And, I 
> might add, people who are largely responsible for the tremendous increase
> in popularity of basketball worldwide over the past decade.  
    
    What a coincidence that these are the two players whose participation
    is most criticized by the "send the best" crowd!
    
    Yes, perhaps no one has done more for the sport worldwide than Larry
    and Magic and perhaps no one is more dedicated, but I'd still prefer to
    see money-making ventures like this one eradicated as much as is humanly
    possible and I don't think that can be accomplished without somehow
    removing the most blatantly promoted professional athletes from the
    Games.  It's kind of ironic, but I think the Olympic spirit possibly 
    could have survived with professionals in place back in the pre-TV 
    days when they'd strip a Jim Thorpe of his medals for unwittingly
    playing a little semi-pro baseball, but now that professionalism is 
    permitted without bounds, the result is exactly the opposite.
    
    I'm not even saying that it's said players' fault that the current 
    situation exists.  It's a difficult choice for a player to make but 
    when I see what the Olympic Games have become I think it's a necessary 
    one.  Why are the Olympics any different in anyone's mind than the 
    world championships or any other exhibition featuring "the best" at 
    this point in time?  In my mind, they're not...
    
    As for great basketball, I can't really speak for the Italians or
    anyone else, but from my viewpoint it's not possible to have a "great" 
    anything in team sports without viable opposition.  It just doesn't
    work without half the game there...
    
    glenn
                                     

    re:  Kev, the romantic
    
    Nah, you're just freakin' horny at the moment, admit it...  :-)
    
    Hawk, who's had no relations in 2 weeks cause a_the ivy, and shares
          Kev's feelings of romanticism immensely (but not with him!)
    

    
    If fans are alike the world over, they'll want to see their teams play
    the best teams.  Do the Pat's draw more fans when the Colts are in town
    and there is a greater chance of winning, or is it a team like the
    Niners that packs 'em in?  Was it the Washington Senators or the
    Dynastic Damn Yankees that brought the fans to Fenway back when there
    were plenty of seats?
    
    Dickstah
    

       Git a room you 2!

�    Folks, the DT isn't about competition, it's about the attitude of
�    "'merican superiority" in relation to the ROW.
    
    Sorry, Kev, but I'm not buying that either.

�IS NOT IN THE OLYMPIC SPIRIT.  
    
    I'm still waiting on the definition of this.  The one that seems the
    most accurate is the one that said something about the Olympics being
    designed for competition among the world's upper class.
    
�I don't think pure amateurism
�    is fair or even necessary, but I would like to see some sacrifice and
�    dedication to the pursuit of the sport for itself, 
    
    Are you saying these guys didn't pay their dues on the way to the NBA? 
    Granted they are making megabucks these days, but they are still
    putting in the hours to stay on top of their game.
    
    And how about those sacrifices made by Britain's royal family to
    compete in the equestrian and marksmanship events...

�So Larry Bird made it on his past accomplishments, and not necessarily on
�his worth right now.  
    
    I think it was a bit of both.  Some folks are concerned there won't be
    enough balls to go around for the Dream Team.  Guys like Larry and
    Magic, (and Stockton) are there to make sure that's not an issue.
    
�Oh, that's right, he plays a game with a ball, so
�that's different.  
    
    I see we're getting into the sophisticated methods of LDUC: try to make
    fun of those who disagree with you, read things that aren't there into
    arguments, and only read what you want to read of others replies.

    The Olympic Spirit and Amateurism died a long time ago when the
    communists started sending professionals.

    Some other thoughts on this Ugly American Bully stuff.  I think it was
    Ken Tessier who hit it on the head when he said that this in itself is
    condescending.  Nothing ticks me off more while engaged in a sport than
    to have someone play down to what he perceives as my level.  I'm sure
    others of you have experienced it.  You know the type.  The softball
    games where the opponents right handed hitters start batting
    lefthanded.  The teams that won't schedule you, or send their JV
    because your team's not good enough.  That smacks of arrogance and
    superiority more than anything.

    
    > And how about those sacrifices made by Britain's royal family to
    > compete in the equestrian and marksmanship events...
    
    Trow da bums out!  ;-)
    
    I honestly don't know if I can define "Olympic spirit", but I know it's
    something I used to feel while watching the Olympics but don't anymore, 
    and it didn't have anything to do with winning and losing.  It's not so 
    much that these guys have made the big bucks in the past as that they 
    are directly or indirectly making them from the Games themselves
    precisely because of their existing stature as celebrated professionals.  
    That doesn't qualify as "sacrifice" for the love of the sport.  Hell, 
    Michael Jordan and Larry Bird admitted a couple years ago that they 
    didn't want to play (something I have no problem with) but they were 
    talked into it.  I honestly don't get a feeling of sacrifice and
    dedication *to this event* from this bunch (and no, "tryouts" wouldn't 
    have fixed that).
    
    If the feeling of this "Olympic spirit" is not the same for others, then 
    I admit I can't rebut that.  It's not something quantitative.
    
    glenn
    
         

                            
    
    Top 10 reasons why these NBA players want to be on the dream team.
    
   10) A chance to play on "The best basketball team in HHHIIISTORY"
    9) Hey, it's fun (i.e. they can play at 75% and still blow people away)
    8) A chance to be idolized WorldWide and treated like demi-gods (ok so
       they have egos too...)
    7) Spain is just beautiful this time of year, nice golf courses, great
       beaches
    6) Gold medal will look nice in between the MVP awards and championship
       rings (Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen)
    5) All-American trophy looking kind of lonely on the mantel (everyone
       else)
    4) Get all misty-eyed whenever the national anthem is played
       (Getting 2+ million a year playing a game?  What a Country!)
    3) Can't let those DAMM fureners dominate MY sport and ruin my POE
    2) Agent says appearance on team will up my endorsement fee by 200%
    
    
    
    1) Babes on Swedish basketball team need help with their game.
    

Mike H -

SOrry to burst yer bubble, but the communists weren't the first to send
'professional' athletes, though we like to think so.  They simply did
things over the table - for years competitors in sports from many
nations were paid big bucks by promoters and sponsers to compete.  Even
good old BOston BIlly - Bill ROdgers, while an amateur, regularly made
over 200,000 a year.    Many of Britains olympic stars of the past were
simply the youth of the ruling elite - with access to the best of everything,
with no worries of having to work, etc....  ANd there are more examples.

And know, especially with the shambles the former east bloc is in - one could
say that we are the ones with the subsidized sports complex that has the
goal to win golds to show the superiority of our system.   

The whole issue is folks didn't watch the games for the athleticism, but for
medal and flag lust.  Once you start keeping tallies, you lose the essence
of the competition.

And I'll reiterate, the east bloc folks weren't the only ones juiced up on
roids and hormones.   They may have had more - especially the woman's team -
but we were hardly angels in that respect.


Mac -

Just because folks aren't enamored with the dream team, or may not like it, 
doesn't mean its AMerican bashing - a term that you seem to swing around
everytime someone makes a criticism.   As for the LDUC - you started it.

Olympic spirit - someone with your cynical views would never understand.

IN general:

Actually,  by sending the pros, we are being nice guys.  It isn't as 
embarrassing to lose to his Airness, et al, as it would to a bunch of
college kids.  SO actually, we are being nice.

    
    "There are none so blind as those who will not see"
    
    It's a known fact that the rules of amateurism were created
    specifically to maintain a class distinction between the elite and the
    working class.  Avery Brundage tried his dammnest to keep the little
    folk out of the way so the comment about the sacrifices made by the
    British Royal Family was (unknowingly perhaps) in tune with the way the
    original rules were written.
    
    However, many levels below the "world class athlete" real competition
    existed (and still does).  Sure, HS kids get all woodied up when their
    team wins a championship but there's more than just that.  Any former
    jock has to agree with me on that (I hope).  Having more than 10 years
    experience enjoying real competition (and getting whumped frequently
    :*(  I've become the sort of person who enjoys mano-a-mano (or
    woman-o-womano) the best.
    
    Of course I understand that there are many more factors to be
    considered which is why,
    I remain,
    Da Helen Keller of da locker room,
    Kev
    

    We interrupt the Dream Team Pissing Contest for my daily update on
    what's up on the other side of the pond...
    
    Yesterday's European Qualifying Scores:
    
    CIS 83, Italy 75  
    Croatia 93, Slovenia 70 
    Czechoslovakia 89, Israel 80
    Lithuania 100, Germany 84
    
    Lithuania is still perfect at 4-0, Israel drops to 0-4, everyone else is
    2-2. 
    
    
    Question -- top four from this tournament go to Barcelona, as do the
    top four from the Tournament of the Americas.  Who will be the other
    four teams that make up the 12-team Olympic field?  (Is Australia one?)
    
    
    py

I'm very sure that the Olympics have moved far, far away from the original
intent of the French dude who started them.


Amateur is a very relative term in any society.  Nowadays, to be a TRUE
amateur in any sport seems damn near impossible.  

One of my favorite marathon runners is Pat Peterson.  He's not done very
well of late, but on the other hand, he works a 40 hour week, THEN trains
for the marathon, and is world class on top of it.   That's impressive.


I think that the Olympics *competition* moved away from the so-called
Olympic Spirit a long time ago.  Probably when television coverage started
becoming so all-encompassing, and the medal tallies started, and they
started having to test for drugs and blood doping.

Yes, you still see some phenomenal examples of "The Human Drama of
Athletic Competition" -- the Kenyan runner who feel in the '68 Olympics
and came back to win the race, the American wrassler who battled cancer,
then won a medal.

But on the whole, the Olympics is now a showcase wherein athletes hope they
can get endorsements -- at least the athletes from countries with highly
successful programs.   Yes, you still have the cross-country skiers from
Morroco, or the Downhill guys from wherever the other place was, but even
the IOC is thinking about not allowing them to compete.  Hell, they're
closer to any so-called Olympic Spirit than anyone else.



As to our hoops team, I don't feel it's bad that they are there.  Switzerland
sends their very best lugers, and the Soviets and Swedes send their best
hockey players.  So, why shouldn't we send our very best.

My only concern is in how the team was picked, vis-�-vis how much influence
the coach had.  If I'm a coach, I'd want to pick players I know I could
mold into a team, not just a bunch of all-stars.


There is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best, or sending your best,
and we shouldn't have to apologize for that.


Finally, where is Olympic Spirit still alive?  In the friendships and
fellowship that the competitors share with one another.  I still believe
THAT is there.....


'Saw

>    Czechoslovakia 89, Israel 80


Does anyone know if former UCONN star Nadav Henefeld is playing for
Israel?


'Saw

    
> Finally, where is Olympic Spirit still alive?  In the friendships and
> fellowship that the competitors share with one another.  I still believe
> THAT is there.....
    
    Kind of hard to develop these friendships when you're sequestered
    outside of town far away from the Olympic village, no?
    
    glenn
    

Saw -

Of course, the Dream Team athlete's aren't takingg part in your last point -
since
they won't dirty themselves by living in the athlete's village with the
peasants...

Also, while the wrestler with cancer is a great story, and I'm glad for him,
I also know he won the gold because of the east bloc boycott.  No way he
would have won if they were there (and to be fair,  some of the 1980 gold
medal winners wouldn't have won if the U.S. had been there).

Only athtete I ever heard acknowledge the effect of the boycotts was
West German Harold Schmidt - who was one of the greatest 400 hurdle
runners ever - his only problem was his career coincided with Edwin Moses -
who he could not beat.  Schmidt won the 1980 gold medal - and he said basically
"hey this is great - but the world champeen and greatest hurdler is over
in the U.S. - Edwin Moses - no boycott, I get silver..."  Perspective.

JD

>    Kind of hard to develop these friendships when you're sequestered
>    outside of town far away from the Olympic village, no?
>    
>    glenn


Well, I wasn't referring specifically to the Dream Team here, but I will
admit that I did not know they were not to be in the Olympic Village.

If we're speaking generically, I think that I'm right though.  yes?


'Saw    

>Of course, the Dream Team athlete's aren't takingg part in your last point -
>since
>they won't dirty themselves by living in the athlete's village with the
>peasants...

Yeah, I just responded to Mr. Waugamain about this.  I was not aware of
this. I haven't really followed the story too closely, to be honest.

>Also, while the wrestler with cancer is a great story, and I'm glad for him,
>I also know he won the gold because of the east bloc boycott.  No way he
>would have won if they were there (and to be fair,  some of the 1980 gold
>medal winners wouldn't have won if the U.S. had been there).

Good point.  I couldn't remember when he won gold.  I think in a way,
though, his story tells us that there are many things much more important
than sports.  


>Only athtete I ever heard acknowledge the effect of the boycotts was
>West German Harold Schmidt - who was one of the greatest 400 hurdle
>runners ever - his only problem was his career coincided with Edwin Moses -
>who he could not beat.  Schmidt won the 1980 gold medal - and he said basically
>"hey this is great - but the world champeen and greatest hurdler is over
>in the U.S. - Edwin Moses - no boycott, I get silver..."  Perspective.

Another good point.

'Saw

Saw -

Also, I did think Blatchink (something like that) story was a great one.  Cancer
is one of those words that makes folks shrink back, and assume the worst.  No
matter what, he did win the gold against the competition that was there - and
that's what counts.  To his credit he kept wrestling, and from what I've read
has done a lot.  He really is what the OLympics should be about - even
if he does compete in a sport without a ball.

JD

> If we're speaking generically, I think that I'm right though.  yes?
    
    Generically speaking, even if the Dream Team is the extreme, I think the
    Olympics are moving in the same direction where the competition is
    becoming more and more businesslike, or to use the word again,
    "professional".  Show up, do your thing, and leave.  The spirit you 
    refer to still exists in the lower-profile events but I think it's 
    vanishing from the major events like basketball and track-and-field.
    
    glenn
    

�They simply did
�things over the table 
    
    I think you meant UNDER the table.
    
�The whole issue is folks didn't watch the games for the athleticism, but for
�medal and flag lust. 
    
    Thanks for telling me why I watch.  I forgot.
    
�Just because folks aren't enamored with the dream team, or may not like it, 
�doesn't mean its AMerican bashing - a term that you seem to swing around
�everytime someone makes a criticism.   
    
    "I don't like the Dream Team" isn't American bashing, and I never said
    it was.  "Look at those bullies embarrassing those other countries'
    players" and "Americans are just a bunch of jingoistic flag wavers who
    don't the meaning of sport" is American bashing and that's what I was
    taking issue with.  Sorry if I went too fast for you.
    
�As for the LDUC - you started it.
    
    I beg your pardon?  Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to disagree with you
    anti-dream teamers.
    
�Olympic spirit - someone with your cynical views would never understand.
    
    I choose to believe that Olympic Spirit means competition among the
    world's best.  That even if someone has alot of money, and even if that
    money was made playing a sport, they can still enjoy the Olympic Games. 
    I disagree with those that say this is all a farce, the US is just out
    to humiliate the rest of the world by playing a bunch of jaded,
    over-hyped basketball players who have been hand picked by corporate
    America, and I'm being called cynical.  I think someone needs to take
    another look in their DEC issue American Heritage dictionary.

    
>    Question -- top four from this tournament go to Barcelona, as do the
>    top four from the Tournament of the Americas.  Who will be the other
>    four teams that make up the 12-team Olympic field?  (Is Australia one?)
    
Australia - won Oceanic Tournament (or something like that)
African tourney champ - Can't recall who won this, was it Angola?
China - won some Asian or Far East (or something) tourney
Spain - host country

Something I discovered last night while watching the game is that the last
gold medal winner also gets an automatic bid, but since the Soviet Union is
no more there isn't an automatic bid coming from that this time around.  I 
wonder if (for example) the USA was the defending gold medal team, where 
would the extra spot be taken away?  Would they only take 3 teams from the
Tournament of the Americas?   
 

Joe

Mac -

Calling folks jingoistic isn't american-bashing.  It's the sad truth - something
that you don't want to hear.  But, it seems you suffer from Ostrich-syndrome-
hide yer haid in the sand and things will be okay.

My point about hte dream team - if you can remember and understand - was the
selection process.  You seem to favour giving the jersey out as some sort
of award for meritourious service or something.   I disagree with that - but
you caint stand anyone not agreeing with your views, so you hide behind 
american bashing and cynicism.  

Hey like I said, its more embarrassing and in-yo-face to have some
college kids beat on the rest of the world then it is to have these, lets
see, let me get into Mac-think:  These fine american, hard-working, paid-me-dues,
patriotic, country-before-bankbook, struggling, clean-cut, all-american, flag
drenched, blue-collar, midwestern, dragged up from the bottom of the basement,
unbelievable success-story, embodiment of the AMerican dream athletes that
so wonderfully wear the U S A emblazoned across their chests, striving to
carry this countries honor on their overburdened shoulders, professional
boys who make up the so-called dream team.   When I think of the sacrifices
these poor guys made to carry this burden of saving American face, I get
all goose-bumply.

Hey, I like this Mac-think - no American bashing.  Ain't no flies on 'merica.
Ain't no problems either.  And if you think there are - you just a basher.

Oh rapture....

JD

�Of course, the Dream Team athlete's aren't takingg part in your last point -
�since
�they won't dirty themselves by living in the athlete's village with the
�peasants...
    
    And I'm being called cynical...
    
    They are between a rock and a hard place on this one.  They don't have
    the luxury of being anonymous to most of the world that most other
    Olympic athletes have.

       You're becoming a parody of yourself JD. Care to quote where MAc
    said any of that?
                                     Denny

�Also, I did think Blatchink (something like that) story was a great one.  Cancer
�is one of those words that makes folks shrink back, and assume the worst.  No
�matter what, he did win the gold against the competition that was there - and
�that's what counts.  
    
    Somehow, I don't think the same sentiments will be expressed about
    Earvin Johnson...

Denny

Anytime anyone criticizes the dream team or dares to say that perhaps there's
a little too much nationalism in Olympic coverage, etc. - he does his
American-bashing routine.  

And he's talked of guys like Bird getting on the team for long-time service,
the no-need-for-tryouts for this special group of dues-paid athletes.  

JD

Mac -

Blatchink had to win a spot on the Olympic team.  He wasn't handed a jersey
by ROnald McDonald and serenaded by the Uh-Huh girls...

JD

�Calling folks jingoistic isn't american-bashing.  It's the sad truth - something
�that you don't want to hear.  But, it seems you suffer from Ostrich-syndrome-
�hide yer haid in the sand and things will be okay.
    
    When someone starts saying the same thing about New Yorkers, you go
    ballistic.
    
�My point about hte dream team - if you can remember and understand - was the
�selection process.  
    
    I remember that point.  You've told us over and over again.  You've
    also made a few other points.  Not all of my notes have been directed
    at your arguments either.
    
    OK, so I'll go to the JD approach and rather than explain why I
    disagree with some of the things said in here, I'll just keep repeating
    my stance cause it's the gospel truth.

And when folks say it about Boston - you go ballistic.  And no one has
ever said New Yorkers are jingoistic.  

Gospel truth.  Hardly.  Never claimed it was.   I'll leave gospel truth to
the bible=-thumpers.

JD

    
    	Hey 'saw, what is it about this 'french guy' who started the
    Olympics?  I thought they started in Greece about a million years
    ago.  Or were you referring to the 'modern day' Olympics?
    
    	In the above, it was only at the re-starting of the Olympics
    which was named the 'modern-day' Olympics that professionals were
    banned.  The original Olympics were for anyone who wanted and could
    compete.
    
    	So, the spirit of the Olympics, that is the original spirit of
    the Olympics was to include anyone.
    
    	The whole point is moot.  Right now we have the best athletes in
    the world, period.  And it just so happens that we are sending some
    of them to the summer Olympics.  So, I guess the world has another
    excuse to hate the U.S. of A.
    
    	Personally, the dream team will do more for the sport of basketball
    around the globe than has been done over the past 50 years.  And
    speaking for myself who really doesn't like the pro game, I've totally
    enjoyed the dream team so far.  It's great to see great athletes 
    compete and it's a plus when they all are friends too.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    It's times like these (ie. the lasted 300+ replies) that I'm glad that
    we're separated by miles of wires, and not in a real bar.  Chairs would
    be flying right about now...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

�Anytime anyone criticizes the dream team or dares to say that perhaps there's
�a little too much nationalism in Olympic coverage, etc. - he does his
�American-bashing routine.  
    
    It's too bad that's all you read, because I think you've missed some
    interesting stuff, if I do say so myself.  I've mentioned American
    bashing a couple of times and little of it had to do with the criticism
    of the Dream Team.
    
�And he's talked of guys like Bird getting on the team for long-time service,
�the no-need-for-tryouts for this special group of dues-paid athletes.  
    
    Again, you've apparently skipped over alot of what I wrote.  Let me try
    to summarize.
    
    In my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of those that really
    count, the selectors) tryouts were held.  They are normally called the
    NBA draft and the NBA and NCAA seasons.  The selection to a team sport
    is always a subject of controversy since there are very few objective,
    quantitative measurements to go by like you have in sports like T&F,
    swimming, skiing, etc. where you have clocks and tape measures which
    individuals compete against, and to some extent gymnastics, skating,
    diving where judges use a (although a bit subjective) rating system.
    
    Corporate America may have had a hand in the selection process, but
    there is a very good reason why Corporate America would want some of
    those players on the team.  They earned their status of meal-ticket
    endorser by being among the best basketball players in the world.
    
    I haven't said much about the selection of Larry Bird, other than
    acknowleding that his selection was probably due in part on past
    service rather than present performance.  I don't see that any of his
    teammates have a problem with it (except maybe Scottie Pippen ~/~), and
    I haven't heard too much from the rest of the basketball community
    against it.  What I have heard is what Bird can still bring to the game
    is very valuable, especially in Team dynamics.
    
    Maybe I've missed some of what JD has written, but I haven't seen any
    rebuttal to these arguments.  All I've seen are personal attacks, and
    repetitive statements of "I don't like the way the Dream Team was
    picked".

    
    
        Stara flaszka Z piwa 
        Pijaki Pijaki 
    
     Zrodlo pragnienia Oberek
    Cztery Pory Rokw........

>    	Hey 'saw, what is it about this 'french guy' who started the
>    Olympics?  I thought they started in Greece about a million years
>    ago.  Or were you referring to the 'modern day' Olympics?
    
yeah, bill, I meant the modern day Olypmics.


What would be really cool was if they had to compete in the modern
day Olympics like they had to back in Greece in ancient times.  They
competed naked back then....   8^)



re Hawk and the Chairs:

	Nah, I don't think so.  JD would stand there expanding his
	lats like a roughed grouse at mating time, and we'd all
	be impressed.  Mac would buy JD a beer, JD would buy Mac
	a beer, everyone would abuse me about Kelly Bundy being
	a lot like rugby, and that would be that.....


'Saw

    Pierre DeCoubertin formed the modern Olympic movement modelled after
    the ancient Greek Olympics.  The standard used in the Modern Games was
    strict amateurism.  It was intended to limit sports to the upper
    classes who didn't have to work for a living as opposed to those who
    did.  In other words, from the very beginning it was intended to be
    elitist.
    
    John

    > What would be really cool was if they had to compete in the modern
    > day Olympics like they had to back in Greece in ancient times.  They
    > competed naked back then....   8^)
    
    yeah, but there were also no women participants and women who tried to
    watch the games got thrown off a cliff if caught.  :-(
    
    
    py

    
    I thought the announcers mentioned lasted night that the B-ball team
    *would* be in the olympic village.  But I may be wrong, as I may have
    been wrong before....
    
    The ancient olympics were held in the nude.  Good concept, with the
    possible exception of fencing, and the high hurdles.
    
    Dickstah
    

    I did finally have some free leisure time last night, so I decided to
    sit down and really take a look at this Dream Team.  The impression
    that I got of this whole thing was brought up many times by the
    commentators, whoever they were.  Anyway, it was about how these teams
    don't expect to beat the DT, nonetheless, they are thrilled just to be
    on the same floor playing hoops with them.  Whether this be the case
    with all the teams, I dunno.  But last night's Argentina team, from
    what I saw of the 1st half anyway, seemed to have this attitude.  They
    looked like they had fun, regardless of the blowout.  That one time
    where the Argentine guy was at the foul line and the ball did a Don
    Nelson and luckily went in, the smile on his face, and Magic shaking
    his hand was priceless.  [Could this, perhaps, be the "spirit" we're
    all looking for?]  Unfortunately though, the camera didn't pan over to
    Magic during & after the handshake, but I imagine he had his famous
    mile-wide on :-).
    
    One unrealistic commercial though, the one with the little kid shooting
    around by himself and pretending he's on the DT, and the game's on the
    wire, and he scores the winning basket.  The DT's winning basket
    usually comes around the 15 minute mark of the 1st half...  :-)
    
    Hawk
    

And Mac, those other sports (ones without the little spheroid) aren't simply
"against the clock".  

If the NBA draft was part of the selection process, why did #3 get picked
ahaid of #1 AND #2?

Why would Scottie Pippen even be on the team.

Why should corporate America have a say in the selection process?  And why
ONLY for hoops?  After all, corporate America has lots of athletes it uses
to shill its products on the dazed masses.

Bill G -

Your statement about america having the greatest athletes and another
reason to hate the usa - was that just for hoops, or in general.  Cuz if
it was about sports in general, you miss the boat.  Lots of countries 
have great athletes, not just the USA.  (Oops, is that American bashing?)

Saw -

If this was a bar, we wouldn't be talking about this.  

JD

    re .499
    
    Good note JD, but you calling someone else cynical ? Haa ....

    If there's one good thing about the Dream Team (and it's the only
   good thing) it's that they will showcase America's unique brand
   of basketball in the world's premiere sporting event. 

    Basketball American-style is physical jazz. It's structure and yet 
   it's improvisation. It's cool and it's hot and it's nasty. It's in 
   your face and it comes from the soul. Olympic basketball isn't going 
   to be very competitive and the international rules aren't as con-
   ducive to the American style but these games will no doubt have 
   their moments. There will be times when Jordan will soar with all 
   of the beauty of a Charlie Parker solo or Magic will make a pass
   with the detached cool of a Dizzie Gillespie and folks will be going, 
   'Dig those cats' much as they did at Massie Hall at the 'greatest
   concert ever.' More than just about any other team sport, basketball 
   allows for individual expression. It allows for any one person to step 
   out and show his wares, to show the style that he has honed through 
   years of practice and a pure love of the playing. And when one cat is 
   'feeling it' the others fade to the background. Just like jazz. And 
   much as every jazzman must find his own 'voice' so must each basketball
   player. Althought all must know the basics - Larry's game is as diff-
   erent from Michael's or Magic's or Stockton's as Dizzie's playing is 
   from Miles or Wynton. Basketball Dream Team style is as uniquely American
   as jazz. 

    And that's the only positive thing you'll ever hear me say about the 
   Dream Team.

    

Re. 

>> Why should corporate America have a say in the selection process?

JD, you keep saying that corporate America picked this team, but I haven't
read where you've sited any evidence of this.  I was under the impression
that the team was selected by a committee composed of NBA GMs or former
GMs and some college coaches.  Please enlighten us on exactly what the
process was that enabled corporate America to pick the team.

Thanks,

Ken

    .531 Good note, Tommy.
    
    That sport-as-art analogy is what they used to say about the Brazil
    soccer teams in the heyday of "Samba Soccer." Individual or team 
    creativity and imagination, and the spontaneous nature of the game will
    make sure it will continually evolve. This is a contrast to foolball,
    where there are set plays, and the only individuality comes from an
    open field runner.  
    
    Tom  

Hawk, you make a good point, even if it is one that also comes from
the commentators.


We had an opportunity to practice with the Eagles before their Scotland
game last year.  It was fun just to be on the pitch with them, and while
they were purportedly the best ruggers America has to offer, and they
could probably outscrum, outrun etc etc etc us "regular guys", there
was a big fun element to be there.


I think that Hawk is right.  For a lot of these small teams, it is 
an opportunity of a life time.  And imagine the stories they can tell:

	Yes, my grandson, it happened only once, and we lost the
	game, but I once stole the ball from Michael Jordan.


It's conceivable, and must be mentioned...


'Saw

    
    Now you've gone and done it, Tommy.  We don't want any of that damned
    individualism on our Dream Team!  This is a team game!  ;-)
    
    If there's one good thing about this whole affair, for me it's Magic
    Johnson.  I know a lot of people think he shouldn't be there for a 
    number of reasons, but with Magic more than anyone I get a touch of 
    that warm-all-over Olympic feeling because I think he understands 
    what it means to be there and genuinely feels honored and privileged 
    (I'm not saying that others don't, but on the whole...). 
    
    glenn
    

       I caught a glimpse lasted night of 1 of the Argentines having a
    pretty good time with Chris Mullin. The way I look at it, if these teams
    are having a hell of a good time getting the snot beat out a them I
    have no problem with the 'Dream Team'. From all accounts I've heard and
    read the opposition is thrilled to be on the same court with
    these guys.
                                       Denny

    	I watched last night's game while munching on my Dream Team
    Happy Meal (official Olympic sponsors), drinking from my James
    Worthy Slurpee (official Olympic sponsors) and relaxing on my Kevin
    Duckworth LazyBoy Recliner (official Olympic sponsors).
    
    				/Don

    
    re: JD
    
    	No, I didn't miss the boat with my comment about the USA having 
    the best athletes becasue we do overall.  Up until a few years ago,
    our best athletes weren't able to compete, so we sent the others who
    for the most part held there own if not outperformed the other
    countries best.  Now we are getting a chance to send 'some' of our
    best, and some are crying foul.  Maybe sometime in the future we can
    send a dream team of baseball players too.
    
    	Granted, we sip in certain 'events', but for overall athleticism,
    I doubt you can beat the product produced between the Atlantic and
    Pacific.  I have no doubt in my mind that if we wanted to, our country
    could be No. 1 in soccer, skiing, hockey etc.  We've proved that with
    good coaching and good instructional camps that we can compete in the
    once unheard of event called gymnastics to the point that we now have
    the best female gymnast in the world.  In less than 20 years, our
    womens gymnastic team has gone from obscurity to one of the best.
    
    	Simply put, with our diversity, freedom of selection, and so forth,
    the USA has, and will continue to produce the best all round athletes
    in the world.  And that's not slighting the other countries, because
    they all have capable athletes, but I still believe we produce the
    best overall.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    It's a combination of several things that allow Americn athletes to
    be regarded as the best. Main factors include large population, first
    rate sports facilities/coaching etc., larger portion of disposable
    income available for leisure, and good nutrition.
    
    These are generalizations, but by and large, they make the difference.
    China, the old USSR, India, etc may have larger populations, but in the
    other areas, particularly general heath of the average citizen, there
    isn't much to compare. Other countries in W. Europe or Japan,
    Australia or New Zealand are close to the level of wealth, and probably 
    surpass us in leisure time and overall healthcare/fitness/nutrition, but 
    they have a much smaller pool of people. The best athlete in, say France, 
    might not even be in the top 50 of Americans.
     
    Tom

    Bill -
    
    And I say you are showing a lot of elitism.   Hoops, we have the best.
    No doubt.  Swimming - for the most part, yep.  Overall in track and
    field, yep - though at certain events other countries are very
    dominant.
    
    Other than hoops, we always sent our best.  Did you miss something?
    
    Our best track athletes, swimmers, fencers, bikers, wrasslers, boxers,
    etc.   We aren't the best in boxing, are we�  Seems the cubans have
    been beating the hell out of us lately.  IN track, anything over the
    800 is the domain of the kenyans, ethiopians and morrocans.  In the
    hammer throw, the russians have always dominated.  I think its a pretty
    narrow view to think that we have some divine right to be the chosen
    best at all sports.  It's the kind of attitude that gets other folks in
    other countries to hate us.  The kind of cultural snobbery that has, in
    my opinion, no place in our thinking.   
    
    In the summer 'pics, other than hoops, we have sent our best, for hte 
    the most part.  And we've done damn good - as expected a country with
    our population base and economic resources.
    
    JD

    Looks like MtM is in need of a moderator :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    JD,
    I didn't interpret Bill's response as an elistist statement at all.
    I'll agree with you one one point; yes, we have always sent our best
    excepting bball, and occasionally got beaten by better athletes.
    Accepted in the spirit of sport. 
    I think you are reaching in trying to interpret anything in people's
    response that could bolster your argument. You're starting to read
    things that aren't there, IMO. You have raised several good points
    in your arguments; some I agree with others I don't. Don't try to
    twist everything people write as an overlying theme of cultural
    elitism to reinforce your theories. No offense, JMHO
    
    
    MikeL
    

    MikeL
    
    Didn't Bill say that he feels we have the greatest athletes in the
    world, and that if we wanted to, we could be the best in everything?
    
    That's smacks of elitism to me.  Has nothing to do with bolstering 
    an arguement.
    
    I simply think that it is possible for non-americans to be damn good
    athletes.  Sure, Lawrence Taylor could crush a Kenyan distance runner -
    if he could catch him - the point is that BOTH are fantastic athletes.
    
    In many ways, Mike, it doesn't seem we are very good sports about
    losing - many folks seem to either get on the 'the other guys are
    cheaters, pros, older' bandwagon or the "well, if we had our best..."
    bandwagon.
    
    Point is, in many sports, we simply don't compete with other folks -
    which should be fine, IMO, because sports should be about sports, and
    not, IMO, phoney nationalism.
    
    JD

    
      JD, if you stop and look the sports that we don't do very well 
     in are sports that we don't care very much about. It's not elitist 
     or Rickey Hendersonesque or anything else to say that if we put
     our minds to it we as a nation could excel at anything. It's just
     one person's educated opinion.

    > Stara flaszka Z piwa 
    > Pijaki Pijaki 
    >
    > Zrodlo pragnienia Oberek
    > Cztery Pory Rokw........
    
    Let's see...
    
    Something about drinking beer.
    Oberek is a dance ???
    Cztery = 4 ( I assume four in a row for the Lituanians)
    
    -Pawel
    

Folks,  

Let me step in here for a minute with my moderator hat.

I cannot quite put my finger on what I'm trying to get at, but let me give it
try.





We're having a really intense discussion here about some pretty deep
sports things.  Okay, no problem so far.

I'm not wrong if I say people are getting very "enthusiastic" in making
there points.  Again, no problem.


But I'm getting a feeling that it's getting close to a line here, that
I'm not sure we all want to cross over.  I can't say it's been TOO 
personal, because it hasn't -- YET.  I can't say that there are any
emotionally charged, attacking statements -- YET.   But I can say that
i see a tremendous potential for there to be...real soon now.


So, let's all just take a few deep breaths, think about how good that
first ice cold beer of the long weekend is gonna take, let's step back
and put our objectivity glasses on, and then let's try all of this
again.


Okay?   


Okay.



thanks,
frank

TOmmy -

And most other countries don't give a rats ass about a lot of the sports we
excel in - like hoops and baseball and American Football.  But if they
put their minds to it, I bet they could get good at it.

The world is diverse - as is the sporting world - and for me, that's absolutely
fantastic.   I can enjoy cricket, or hurling, or the super bowl, or 
bobsledding or biathlon or track and field, swimming or hoops.  

Many seem to have a very smug attitude of "Well, if WE don't play it, it 
isn't worth being played..."

JD

    
    I live for the day we outclass the world with our Syncronized Swimming
    Dream Team and kick the collective ass of the rest of the world right
    out of the water.
    
    Dickstah
    

       Way to go 'Saw step in here and straighten that MAc guy out for a
    change. You might have to pay him a visit and slap him around a little
    though!
                                       Denny

 >> And most other countries don't give a rats ass about a lot of the 
 >> sports we excel in - like hoops and baseball and American Football.  
 >> But if they put their minds to it, I bet they could get good at it.

    Seems like you've gone full circle and pretty much agree with Bill's 
    note that you once deemed elitist.

 >> Many seem to have a very smug attitude of "Well, if WE don't play it, it 
 >> isn't worth being played..."

    Nope, you're missing the point entirely. It's not that it isn't worth
    being played it's because there either isn't any money in it (always a 
    big consideration here in the US) or there is no tradition of a particular 
    sport being played here or it's just not a part of our culture. There
    are alot of sports that fall into one or another of these categories 
    that I like but don't get to see during the Olympics because they get 
    bumped for the more commercially viable sports.
    

    
    
    	Call it elitism if you wish.  I have no problem with the statement
    I made.  I believe we have the best athletes in the world.  Does that
    mean we are 'better' than anyone else?  No.
    
    	As for sending our best, you gotta be kidding.  I'll agree that
    we've sent close to our best in some sports, but I don't see us sending
    our best.  You mentioned boxing.  The only reason why Cuba kicked out
    butts repeatedly was due to the fact that our 'kids' were boxing 28-35
    year old men in the prime of their life.  Why not have a box off
    involving all the available boxers and then send those.  How do you
    think Hagler would of faired?  How about Holmes?  I'm sure we could
    of fielded a better team if our pro's would of competed.  Next, take
    baseball.  Again, Cuba is superior because they send seasoned 'men'
    instead of a bunch of untested college kids.  I'd love to see Clemens,
    Puckett, Bonds etc. get a chance to play.  I dare say that Cuba would
    have the same success it has now over our team if we sent our best.
    How about hockey?  Not that I'm an expert on hockey, but it seems that
    we could field a much better team if we sent some of our pro's. 
    Granted, it would be tough since Canada has a monopoly on the best, but
    we would still fair better than we have.
    
    	I could go on and on, but what's the point.  We do send plenty of
    our best, but plenty of our 'very' best have been left home because 
    they were labeled as professionals.  
    
    	Again, I'm not saying that the American is superior as a human
    being or master race.  I'm saying that because of what America is and
    because of the superior training and technology, we produce the best
    athletes in the world.  Why else would the rest of the worlds athletes
    want to come to this country to attend school and compete?  If the
    best were elsewhere, they would go there, but they all choose to
    come here and take advantage of what is available.
    
    
    								bill..g.
    

    
    Now that the Soviet Union has dissolved, it's hardly outrageous to say
    that as a nation the US has the greatest athletes in the world.  I
    don't think that statement implies any elitism whatsoever (and this is
    coming from someone who doesn't care if we're the best or we win the
    most medals or whatever).  It doesn't imply that we could be the best in
    everything or even close to everything regardless of the question of
    whether we "want" to be.  But while this country or that country might 
    dominate in this event or that event, who has the least weak spots?
    
    By definition, some country must have, on the whole, the greatest
    athletes in the world.  It's a legitimate question.  If it's not the US
    as JD claims, then I ask which country does he dominate as the answer
    to the question?
    
    I think it would have been very difficult to support a claim for the
    US athletes as the best 10 years ago, though.
    
    glenn
    

                     Magic, Bird Are the Real Show
    				-- S.L. Price
    				   Miami Herald
    				   June 30, 1992

    There are reasons aplenty to dislike the whole Dream Team
    bonanza, what with that bullyboy joyromp over Cuba and the fact
    that this new world order of USA hoops dominance isn't exactly
    going to shatter the image of American arrogance.  But for two
    very fine friends, all that doesn't matter much.  This is their
    game now, and that alone is enough to make this enterprise mean
    more than just hype.

    Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have come together for the first,
    and likely last, time and much of what basketball is today is
    due to them.  They are both old and ailing now, futures unclear,
    but when USA Coach Chuck Daly named them co-captains last week
    no one saw it as anything but exactly right.

    "Getting a chance to play with all these guys, especially Larry,
    means a great deal to me," Magic said before the team's game
    against Canada late Monday.  "If you look at what we've been
    through together since coming into the league - just look at the
    player salaries from then compared to now.  That should tell the
    story of how far it's come.  In fact, some of these guys should
    be thanking us.

    "But more than that, this could be the last hurrah for both of
    us.  You never know."

    At its best, that's what this Dream Team thing is going to be: 
    a demonstration of how good the best can play.  In Sunday's
    opener, no one was more excited than Bird and Magic, who played
    against each other in the 1979 NCAA final, than on through a
    decade's worth of battles that verged on epic.

    "It was great, no question about it," Bird said.  "I didn't
    think much before the game, but after we got the lead he started
    coming up to me and saying something about, `Aw, you missed a
    shot,' or `That was a bad pass.' It's always fun when you're out
    there run-and-gun, moving the basketball."

    Magic smiled and nodded as Bird said this, and it was good to
    see.  In their later years the who men became so close they said
    they would retire at the same time.  But back at the beginning
    they didn't speak to each other at all, Bird the jump-shooting,
    trash-talking Indiana white kid, Magic the smooth-passing black
    kid who could play any position on the floor.

    The rivalry was a natural, Bird in Boston and Magic in L.A., and
    since the league marketed it and the media fueled it the two
    didn't realize at first that they could like each other, that
    what they had in common - how they see the game, lift their
    teammates - was something only they could understand.  Bird was
    the harder one to crack, I suspect.

    He came literally from the wrong side of the tracks in French
    Lick, Ind., full of that small-town suspicion of anyone who
    could work the star system so easily.  One summer I went to
    French Lick to talk to Bird, armed with the recommendation by
    one of his friends that I use his name.  Stubborn, I figured I
    didn't need his help.  But Bird wouldn't talk until, as a last
    resort, I said so-and-so said hello.  Walking away, Bird turned
    and smiled and said, "What's that SOB doing anyway?"

    You always have to pass some test with Bird.  So it made sense
    that when a thaw came between him and Magic, it came on Bird's
    turf, one mid-'80s summer when the two men were filming a
    commercial in French Lick.  Magic fit in, hung with the boys. 
    He passed.  They were superpowers, the two most dominant
    personalities the sport had, and when they became friends people
    around the league reacted as if detente had been declared.

    They have been close since.  When Magic announced his retirement
    last November because he had contracted the AIDS virus, Bird
    said it was the worst he had felt since his father killed
    himself with a gun.  The two had never played on the same team,
    except for charity.  Back problems hindered Bird, 35, all
    season; retirement looms.

    This team, this Olympics:  it belongs to them.  They're sharing
    it.  When it came time to carry the U.S. flag in the opening
    ceremonies, Bird told Magic, "`Go ahead, you do it,'" Johnson
    said.  As for Barcelona, "maybe it'll be his turn there.  I'd
    like to, but we'll work it out either way."

    Magic is younger, 32, but if he wants it Bird will let him. 
    Because the problem is, his friend is dying.  And Bird knows
    that being the man again, playing again, means everything to
    him.  He stared at his lap when Magic began describing his first
    game back.

    "You can't even touch on how I feel," Magic said.  "I was up at
    5:30 this morning just waiting, waiting to get back in that
    competitive atmosphere.  It was just...it was just great...like
    an automatic switch that just goes on, like a light that's been
    off for a long time."

    So, yes, there are reasons to be disillusioned or even bored by
    the U.S. team's easy perfection.  There is cause to mourn the
    loss of amateurs. But Magic and Bird together will last too
    short a time:  good friends finding each other on the court,
    pointing and smiling as much as they can before the light goes
    out.

    
    
    Watching the first game against Cuba was very entertaining.
    NBC did a good job with how Chuck Daly arrived at the captains
    for the team.   Chuck went to Jordan and asked him if he would
    mind Larry and Magic being the captains.  Jordan said no problem.
    
    
    They also showed Jordan, Magic and Bird getting a picture taken.
    The photographer was asking Magic to get closer to Jordan.  Magic's
    response was if anyone got this close the Jordan a foul would be
    called.
    
    'pjb

Hey guys, Glenn and Bill - if for some inane reason you have to feel all
snugly and say we have the best - then go ahead.  Sing "Amerika Ubber  Alles"
if you want.

I just find that kind of talk to be 'ugly americanism' at its worst.  

Bill - I don't think there is any one who would refute we have the best
of baseball stars - although I'm sure some of the caribbean countries could
put together a decent team.  Not as deep as us (but that's to be expected, given
populations).    

With Boxing - aren't there a lot of good 'foreign' boxers
in the lower weight classes?

After all - you did claim that we have the best - and could be the best at
anything if we wanted to.   I refuted that.   

Perhaps, Bill and Glenn, its a matter of semantics.  In sheer numbers and
depth, given our population size - we probably do have a great number of great
athletes.   You'd have to go by percentage of population, and decide - do we just
rate athletes in American sports - like football, baseball, hoops - or in
all sports.  After all, is it fair to include football players, since other than
some Canadiens in the CFL, there really isn't a world wide pool of players.

If you take the really international sports - those played by almost everyone -
we do pretty good, but aren't as dominating as I guess you'd all like.

Tommy B -  No, not reverse elitism.   Nice try though.   Merely showing that
we tend to judge everyone by our sports - and dismiss those we don't play 
or understand - sort of like your poo-pooing of Cricket.  They had over 85,000
in the stands for the world cup final in Cricket, did you know that.  Just because
it isn't big in the states, doesn't mean its  not a world class  sport.

JD

    No doubt it's hard to compare who is the better athlete, a football
    lineman or a track sprinter. The two require vastly different skills
    and physical characteristics. Since there are only a few sports where 
    the U.S. excels that the rest of the world also competes in, (Track & 
    field, basketball, boxing) this is even more difficult to judge. 
    
    However if you rate all the sports on an equal footing, i.e. the best
    soccer player in the world is equal to the best baseball player in the
    world, in many cases a lot of the best overall athletes are American.
    (Of course, this doesn't even consider the age-old arguments in determining
    who the best in a particular sport may be.) 
    
    They used to have this "Trash Sport" stuff on TV in the 70s that had
    athletes from different sports competing. Although it wasn't serious,
    it was intersting to see which skills were transferrable between
    sports. A hockey player would have excellent upper-body strength, but
    wouldn't do to well in a sprint (different laig muscles for skating)
    Football linemen could do a great job in rowing, rope climbing, but in
    a baseball throw, they could barely do it. Each of these were
    phenominal athletes in their own right, but you couldn't compare them
    across the board.
    
    As for all American athletes vs all athletes from other countries, what
    I said before holds true. Combination of large population, first-rate 
    training, nutrition, coaching and facilities make American athletes
    better overall. BUT, if you wanted to pro-rate it by population, take
    all of the European Community (similar population) and compare the 
    athletes from all 12 countries, you'd get a better comparison.
    
    Tom

�And Mac, those other sports (ones without the little spheroid) aren't simply
�"against the clock".  
    
    Please read the rest of the paragraph.  Then, if you can provide some
    additional insight, please do so.
    
�If the NBA draft was part of the selection process, why did #3 get picked
�ahaid of #1 AND #2?
    
    PART was the key word there.  As in, it is a screening tool to help
    pare down the field.  The question of why the guy named College Player
    of Year and Member of the Dream Team wasn't the #1 pick can just as
    readily be asked.  I think the answer would be the same -- the picks
    were based on team needs.
    
�Why would Scottie Pippen even be on the team.
    
    Why not?  Wasn't he drafted by the NBA?  Hasn't he played in one of the
    toughest basketball leagues on the planet and been a member of 2
    championship teams from that league?
    
�Why should corporate America have a say in the selection process?  
    
    You should answer that one since you believe that was how the selection
    process was done.
    
    

Here are the Dream Team's Corporate Sponsers:

 AT&T, Bulova, Champion Products, Chock Full O'Nuts Coffee, Coca-Cola, Converse,
Gatorade, IBM, ITT Sheraton, Kraft, McDonald's, Phillips LIghting, Skybox
International, Spalding, Visa USA, and Warner-Lambert.

JD

    
     re .556
    
     May I suggest that you cut a hole in the wall to get out of the 
     corner you've painted yourself into ?

�And most other countries don't give a rats ass about a lot of the sports we
�excel in - like hoops and baseball and American Football.  
    
    I think there is alot of evidence that proves otherwise.
    
�Many seem to have a very smug attitude of "Well, if WE don't play it, it 
�isn't worth being played..."
    
    Americans don't have exclusive ownership of this attitude.

    I have noticed the smugness expressed towards us in our relative lack
    of interest in soccer during previous World Cups.
    
    John

JD, you still have not offered a single shred of evidence that corporate
sponsors had any say whatsoever in the selection of the Dream Team.  
Incidentally, it's a little misleading to say that those corporations are
the Dream Team sponsors; they're sponsoring the Olympics period, not 
one particular entrant into Olympics.  And they would be there whether
the U.S. basketball team was made up of NBA players, college kids, or
members of the Miami Tropics!

You act as if corporations never spent big money on advertising during
the Olympics until the Dream team came along.  Tell it to Bruce Jenner
and Wheaties.

Ken 

       Ken's right JD. Let's have some facts! Not just accusations.
                                       Denny

    Somebody mentioned in here that the Dream Team thought they were
    special...too special to stay in the athletes village.  Well, they will
    be joined in some luxury hotels by hihg-profile members of the track
    and swim teams.
    
    	--dan'l

Ken and Denny -

Prove that they didn't have a say in it.   

Ken -

WRONG!  The article says those teams are sponsers of the DREAM TEAM!  Of the
DREAM TEAM. Not of the Olympics.    The BRUCE JENNER and Wheaties thing is
lame - because Wheaties gave Bruce money only AFTER he won the gold - not
before.  And there's a decent chance he wouldn't have made the box if
he didn't win th gold.   

There was one short blurb in the paper about complaints about how other teams
are selected - you know, by trials etc - saying it wasn't fair - pointing
out Dan O'Brien.  So perhaps from now on we'll just have all olympians
picked by committees and sponsers.

Dan'l -  Yep.  And they are wrong about it too.

Tommy - Yawn.

Mac - Double Yawn.  



I just wonder that now that the SOviets and the east bloc'ers are out of the way,
who will become the big, bad, cheating villian of the international sports
scene for the US population?

JD

�    I have noticed the smugness expressed towards us in our relative lack
�    of interest in soccer during previous World Cups.
    
    You're right, John.  And alot of these people will also say things like
    "If the Americans would put their minds to it, they could be quite a
    force".  I've heard it in other sports.

    European Olympic Qualifying Wrapup:
    
    Lithuania made it through the round-robin tournament with a perfect 7-0
    mark.
    
    Also qualifying -- CIS, Croatia, and Germany.
    
    
    The complete 12-team field:
    
    Group A -- Angola, Brazil, Croatia, Germany, Spain, USA
    Group B -- Australia, China, CIS, Lithuania, Puerto Rico, Venezuela
    
    
    re the Dream Team debate, Jan Hubbard's "NBA Column" in this week's
    Sporting News is a must read.  One point that has been overlooked in
    here of late -- in 1989, when FIBA took the vote on letting NBA players
    participate in the Olympics, *the US voted against it* and it still
    passed by a 56-13 margin.
    
    
    py

�There was one short blurb in the paper about complaints about how other teams
�are selected - you know, by trials etc - saying it wasn't fair - pointing
�out Dan O'Brien.  
    
    So, when is Dan's court date?

Re.

> The BRUCE JENNER and Wheaties thing is
> lame - because Wheaties gave Bruce money only AFTER he won the gold - not
> before.  And there's a decent chance he wouldn't have made the box if
> he didn't win th gold.   

Ok, so exactly how many gold medals did Dan and Dave win before Reebok
started running ads featuring them?  They started running those idiotic
Dan versus Dave ads six months ago when the vast majority of Americans
didn't have a clue who these guys were.  Like I said, it doesn't matter
who the participants are, the companies are going to spend money on the
Olympics because it is always a big spectator event.

Re. 

> Prove that they didn't have a say in it.

You're not going to be very successful in getting folks to believe an
accusation that you've made when this is the best evidence you can offer.

Ken

    There's a chance that the Olympic draw may be expanded to include 2
    more teams.  
    
    The FIBA committee is voting on whether to allow Yugoslavia back in (if
    the fighting there stops).  If so, then they will need a 14th team and
    they have stated it will come from the Americas.  It would likely be
    Canada since of the 2 quarterfinal losers (Canada and Argentina),
    Canada won the game between the two.
    
    There is also the chance that Spain will drop out (the players are
    striking over the increasing of the # of `import' players on each team
    in the Spanish pro league from 2 to 3).  If they do drop out, then
    Yugoslavia might simply take their place and the draw would remain at
    12 teams.
    
    pete

    
  re .566    

     Before you go yawning and double-yawning, JD, read the last x number 
    of replies you've made to this note and if you can drag yourself out 
    of the cataleptic state that such an endeavor is sure to induce then
    report back to us because so far all you've done is use the McCarthyistic 
    tactic of 'guilty until proven innocent' in this case labelling folks that
    don't agree with you jingoists and shills for corporate America. If you 
    can't do any better than "Prove they weren't" and it appears that you 
    can't then...  
    

       Rat on Tommy. Obviously JD is making things up as he goes along.
    Maybe he cain prove T&Fers aren't staying in hotels while he's
    researching his data?
                                       Denny

    	I read that TSN arcitle Paul.  Pretty good and it seems like
    the international community is willing to get their butts kicked
    to get better.  They're willing to wait 10 years or more to become
    competitive with the USA.
    
    				/Don

    For other countres to vote "yes" on whether to have Pro players, it
    makes sense. Sure, the best NBA players are American, but the best
    players in Lithuhania, Croatia, Germany, Spain, etc. also play
    professionally, with some in the NBA. 
    
    No doubt they'll get their butts kicked, but in the long run, they will
    be better. A Silver will be like a Gold for practical purposes
    
    Tom

Okay guys, good-bye.  I'll leave ya alll to swap spit and get collective
woodies as you stroke yer dream team corporate inflatables.   Tommy B - yer just
too self-righteous fer me.  

Ken - so, I've never believed anything you've put in here anyway.

Amazing how spoon fed by the mass media you all are.  Believe it all.  Watch
the electronic eye - and slowly put yerselves to sleep.

Hey, of course the corporations who shelled out millions for a dream of
an endorsement ffor a dream of a team had nothing to do with it.  Heck, that's
why an aging pasty white guy who can't even stand up straight and isn't the
best player on his team makes it.  And another guy who doesn't even play
anymore makes it....just good fair objective selection.

And while our greatest athletes in the world bound around artificial domes
beefed up with hormones and steroids, we can call other athletes cheaters...

Ken again - the difference with Dan and Dave is that they had to EARN a spot on
the team - and not be annointed - because Reebok surely would have 'dream teamed'
them to a spot if they had been allowed.

Denny - I'll criticize any athlete who doesn't stay in tthe village.  So you
barking up the wrong tree.  In fack, I've criticized T&F a lot - so nice try...

Tommy B- you don't like it - don't read it.   Maybe you can put in some more
of those self-serving IMO notes again....

And boy, isn't it funny how a bunch of ya are acting like I was against the
pros in the Olympics - which I wasn't, and still aren't.  But for some of ya,
that has a hard time staying put in the old domes...

Ta-ta and may you all have pleasant dream team dreams...

JD

                  
> Perhaps, Bill and Glenn, its a matter of semantics.
    
    Perhaps it is and perhaps the rest of your paragraph (on population and
    other factors) makes sense, but since you've already responded to
    Bill's and my opinions with insults, why bother to backtrack?
    
    glenn
     

�Okay guys, good-bye.  I'll leave ya alll to swap spit and get collective
�woodies as you stroke yer dream team corporate inflatables.   
    
    I'm real sorry that you choose not to participate in what could be an
    interesting discussion.  Many were offering up good questions and
    backing up some of their opinions.  Oh, perhaps that's why you are
    dropping out, because you don't want to discuss but rather want to
    pontificate and tell us all what a bunch of blind idiots we all are.
    
�Amazing how spoon fed by the mass media you all are.  Believe it all.  Watch
�the electronic eye - and slowly put yerselves to sleep.
    
    Oh, I get it now.  JD is just trying to soften the blow of T leaving. 
    Well, I never bought most of what T was selling either.

Glenn -

If you find that insulting, then I apologize.  

JD

Note to all readers.

Please note it was Mac the Moderator who called you blind idiots, and not I.

Don't want any of you bleating to personnel or anything.

JD

    Speakin' o' Bruce Jenner, did he have a face lift and a nose job?  I
    saw him on TV this week and he looks worse than Micheal Jackson.
    
    	--dan'l

     Only JD could say, "Tommy B too self-righteous fer me" then go on to 
    say "Amazing how spoon fed by the mass media you all are. Believe it all. 
    Watch the electronic eye - and slowly put yerselves to sleep" and "And 
    while our greatest athletes in the world bound around artificial domes 
    beefed up with hormones and steroids, we can call other athletes cheaters.
    .." I just wonder if he can manage to keep a straight face while he types 
    that stuff. Oh well, he's kissed this note off so I guess I'll never
    know.
    
    

       Don't count on it Tommy, He'll be back!
                                        Denny

    
    	Amid the Stars, Daly Does the Worrying.
    
    	La Jolla - The Dream Team, until Monday a gleam in NBC's eye, came
    to life when 11 of the planet's best players plus collegian Christian
    Laettner opened training camp.
    	Whatever else it is-greatest basketball team ever, symbol of
    national pride, marketing vehicle for cereal and telephone companies,
    standard-bearer for the Olympic TV network that squeezed in the NBA
    finals around its promos-the U.S. men's team finally exists.
    	The Olympians will spend four more days at UC San Diego, then will
    open the American qualifying tournament at Portland, Oregon on Sunday
    against Cuba.
    	Coach Chuck Daly, once dubbed "the prince of pessismism" was seen
    Sunday, poring over a scouting report of Cuba.
    	Said Daly: "Coaches worry."
    	He acknowledged that the report ended with the words: "I think we
    can post them up."
    	All participants showed up as scheduled.
    	Larry Bird, who sat out the last month of the season and seven of
    11 playoffs games because of a bad back, was here.
    	David Robinson, sidelined for the last month of the season after
    thumb surgery, was here.
    	Michael Jordan, who had hoped to be touring the world's 100 best
    golf courses, was here.
    	And Magic Johnson was here.
    	"It's a relief," Johnson said.  "I don't have to answer that
    question: `Are you going to play?  You get tired of that.
    	"And then the anticipation was wearing me out because I was so
    excited.  And now I'm finally here, and I can relax and do what I do
    best, and that's play basketball.
    	"It's a thrill.  What it is, too, is the respect for each other. 
    We understand that everybody is great in their own way.
    	"That's what people fail to realize.  The minutes don't matter. 
    It's a matter of us winning and being together.  That's all that
    matters.
    	"I don't care if I never start.  When I get my shot, I'm going to
    be ready.  I remember a lot of all-star games when I was in college. 
    Larry and I sat on the bench for three weeks.  Same thing here.  If
    [Daly] gives me five minutes, I'll take five minutes.  If he gives me
    15 minutes, I'll take 15.  If he gives me 30, I'll take 30.
    	"You miss being one of the boys, and last night I was back to being
    one of the boys.
    	"Larry and I both understand.  We're both cheering for each other. 
    We both understand this could be our last situation.  It's beautiful to
    watch him and just play with him-finally, us together."
    	If chemistry, depth, size, quickness, post-up players, outside
    shooters and everything  in between aren't a problem, what is?
    	Only overconfidence.
    	"That's one of the things that can beat us," Daly said.  "I think
    the perfect example was the U.S.S.R. hockey team that came to the
    U.S.A. and defeated all the NHL teams, went to the Olympics and lost to
    a bunch of college kids.  It could happen, but that's what sport is all
    about.  Villanova wasn't supposed to beat Georgetown [for the 1985 NCAA
    championship], but that's basketball."
    	The honor of selection seemed to embrace even Jordan, talked into
    participating by Johnson and who knows how many sponsors.
    	Jordan stayed up Wednesday night playing cards with Johnson, Ewing
    and Charles Barkley.
    	Jordan and Ewing went chest to chest in the Bulls-Knicks playoff
    series, but laughed at the memory.
    	"He said he wasn't going to hit me," Jordan said.  "I said I wasn't
    going to hit him."
    	"It's the golf, the card-playing, the camaraderie we enjoy with
    each other.  It's like summer camp, except I can't swim, so I'm not
    going near the pool."
    	OK, so they have one weakness.
    	Don't tell Cuba.
    
    	Basketball Notes
    	More signs the players like each other: Karl Malone on Phoenix's
    acquisition of Charles Barkley: "We're going to see if he can get that
    Milk-Dud-looking head up and down the floor.". . . The Olympians are
    practicing against a team of collegians, including Michigan's Chris
    Webber, Duke's Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, Wake Forest's Rodney
    Rogers, North Carolina's Eric Montross, Memphis State's Anfernee
    Hardaway and Tennessee's Allan Houston.  Most will be NBA lottery
    picks.
    	Magic Johnson, not happy to be asked if his participation is
    controversial: "I'm over that. Next.". . . Coach Chuck Daly on Johnson:
    "Basically, he hasn't missed a beat.  He's the same player he always
    was, except he's trying harder than he ever always has.  He looked
    very, very good."
    
    	from LA Times
    
    
    

re: 576

Calling everyone who disagrees "drugged sheep of corporate AmeriKa" is a
bit much.   I haven't heard this much rhetoric about the evils of facism 
since the late sixties.

		Bob Cohen

    So when Mr T left, did he just inherit JD's account? Lemmie think for a
    sec, wasn't it JD who put in a note about leaving, etc., and when
    several people wished him well, he pulled the ole "gotcha!" that he was
    only leaving Seattle and moving to New Hamster? What other common
    ground can we come up with linking them? Maybe I'm on to something...
    Anyone have Oliver Stone's phone number handy?
    
    Enquiring mimes deen to wonk

>    What other common
>    ground can we come up with linking them? Maybe I'm on to something...
    
    JD's lats are as big as T's plate stacker?
    

    
    I was just thinking about this DT's performances and I'm
    pretty sure that of the 5 games they played ( x 40 minutes)
    they were NOT in the lead for what, 9 or 10 minutes total?
    
    Say it's 10 minutes.
    
    They were in the lead for ONLY 95% of the games!  They need
    improvement!!!!!!
    
    Anybody have the actual # of minutes they played when they were NOT
    in the lead?
    
    I remain,
    dastsistically curious!
    Kev
    

    Sorry, I've only read the last 15 replies and skipped about the 80
    before so if things have been argued, reguratated, etc... I missed it.
    
    I don't think the sponsors selected the "Dream Team", but I'm sure they
    gave more money of certain players that used their products were on it.
    That and the NBA marketing push that Gavitt and Stern had should be
    factored in as well.
    
    Now, we've seen the ratings start to fall and with all but the finals
    on tape delay unless you're one of the lucky 5000 or so, nobody's gonna
    care that much anyway unless they like massacres or wrasslin'.  So
    here's my proposal.  What do you think, do I send it Reebok and Dave
    Gavitt?
    
    Dear Mr Gavitt,
    
    Congratulations on the Dream Team so far.  It seems that so far the USA
    basketball team has to be the favorite to win in Barcelona.  I think
    it's so good, in fact, that you need another angle to keep people
    interested.  It's been obvious that we've coasted or not played teams
    as tough in the second half as we have in the first to not embarass the
    competition, but enough to still send a message.  I also understand the
    concern about players getting injured, such as Stockton, Bird, Ewing,
    Drexler, Robinson, etc.  Perhaps this will help keep things
    interesting, and help lessen that concern.
    
    It seems to me that the top 10 guys on the team can put away anyone in
    the world.  In the event that players can't make it Barcelona, instead
    of reloading and sending a Thomas, an O'Neal or a Daugherty or
    Hardaway, why not send 2 "real" Olympians.  Someone who's willing to
    take time for a month or so from a job and put them at the end of the
    bench.  Two players who haven't played anything higher than Division I
    college basketball.  Reebok or some other company could sponsor them
    and people would watch the last 5 minutes of the game to see if these
    guys got in and how they did.  
    
    For example, myself and my roommate, Peter Baust.  Neither of us played
    varsity basketball at any level.  I've only played intramural ball in
    a company league and some in intramurals.  We'd go in with the
    understanding that if the game was within 30 or 40 points, we'd sit the
    game out.  But if we got it, we could have one of the world's greatest
    playmakers get us the ball for a shot, perhaps pass to an open man on a
    drive, etc.  We'd stay in the village, we'd do the drills and learn to
    play with the guys on the team.  We'd be there to counteract the
    criticism that the team is overkill.  People would be interested in
    what the "regular guy" (Sorry Hawk and 'Saw) would do.  
    
    Imagine the chants at the end of the Tournament of the America's games.
    Instead of "Clyde Clyde" or "Larry Larry", it would be "Pete Pete" or
    "Walt Walt".  Sort of what home fans do now in the NBA for a Scott
    Hastings, a Bobby Hansen, or a Wayne Cooper.
    
    Let me know what you think of the idea, and get back to us.  We would
    be proud to serve our country in this manner.           
    
    Sincerely, 
    Walter Ashe

    Couple of things:  1) Why us?  Like Al Franken, we thought of it.
    2) We wouldn't take any pay, outside of showing up at Arsenio,
    or on Upper Deck hoop rookie cards.  We'd even let Digital sponsor us and 
    we'd dump the "Let's talk to the terminal/printer/workstation" ads.
    Unless we gave some proceeds to charity or maybe the "Regular Guy"
    bar.
    3) Rebbok can sponsor us and give us Dan and Dave's spots:
    "Pete can dribble the ball between his legs"
    "Walt can hit an occasional 3 point shot"
    "Pete can pass to anyone given enough time"
    "Walt got at least a rebound per game in his DEC league days"
    "Who will score more points?... to be settled in Barcelona"
    Or...
    
    "Who's the better player?  Pete or Walt?"
    Or...
    "Who in America can play hoops better than Pete and Walt?"
    Throw in Dee Brown, Roger Clemens, maybe Dinz on a good day or ACC
    Chris.  It would be the perfect spoof for them...
    
    I mean if an outsider like Perot can get people excited, why can't
    this idea take off?
    
    

 I watched about two minutes yesterday of the DT and there's no way they'll
 be touched cause either they imported NBA refs or the international refs
 have been thoroughly schooled in NBA semantics....

 Sure everyone else is sending their pros but we weren't that's what made
 it so enjoyable for me. Now that we are and they're allowed to get away
 with there bad habits as well...shame on us is all I can say....It reeks
 of as I think Tommy pointed out going home and getting your big brother
 to come do the job you couldn't.....

 Here's a tasty tidbit of a morsel from yesterday, Fratello points out that
 the USA had 56 dunks in the tournement. He goes on to point out that all
 the other teams in the tournement combined had 56. OH Wow, thigh-shuddery...

 Anybody know where I can get a go Lithunia T-Shirt???

 mike

    Dear Mr. Gavett,
    
    Please disregard that letter by that carpetbagger Walt Ashe.  Select me
    instead.
    
    I remain,
    an underdog in more ways than one!
    Kevin Farley
    

Priceless, Walt.  Way too funny.

On a side note, the Charlotte sports page ran an interesting article over the 
weekend ... "What If FIBA Had Said 'No!' To NBA Players?"

If we had picked our '92 Barcelona Olympic team the same as we always had 
before, it still would have been a major league kickass team ... much better 
than Thompson's 1988 fiasco.

How 'bout Shaq, Alonzo, Laettner, JJ, Anfernee Hardaway, Jamal Mashburn, 
Rodney Rogers, Chris Webber, Bobby Hurley and Tracy Murray just to name the 
few I can remember.   That's still one helluva team there, boys.

Start Shaq, Laettner, Mashburn, JJ and Hurley.  Bring in Alonzo and Webber 
off the bench first.  Ouch.

Best of all, no Montross to slow things down.

Bob Hunt

    One interesting thing NBC did was compare this DT to a DT from 1960, if
    the Olympics allowed pros then. 
    
    Wilt       	
    Baylor
    Pettit
    Big O
    Cousy
    
    Russell
    Sharman
    West 
    .
    .
    .
    
    Who'd win? 

   � Wilt        
   � Baylor
   � Pettit
   � Big O
   � Cousy

Wilt Chamberlain vs Patrick Ewing

Hands down to Wilt.  And Russell is better than David Robinson, too.

	1960 1, 1992 0

Elgin Baylor vs Charles Barkley

Very tough one.  Big edge to Baylor for his moves and his shot but Barkley 
overcomes that with his better inside game.  Add in Charles' bulk, his board 
work and his speed on the run and we'll give Sir Charles a whisper-thin 
margin here.

	1960 1, 1992 1.

Bob Pettit vs Karl Malone

I'll take Pettit but Malone's no slouch either.  Malone might be the 
strongest man to ever play the game ... besides Wilt.  We'll call this one a 
tie.

	1960 1, 1992 1, Even 1.

Oscar Robertson vs Michael Jordan

A dream matchup of 2 guards.  Have to go with Jordan.   Oscar is the 
granddaddy of all 2 guards and, as such, Jordan owes him a lot.  But, as is 
often the case, the pupil barely outshines the long-ago mentor.   Jordan is 
the composite of all the best of all the guards (Frazier, Erving, ...) that 
have followed the Big O.

	1960 1, 1992 2, Even 2

Bob Cousy vs Magic Johnson

Sorry, Cooz, but Magic's got the unteachable height advantage over you. I'm 
sure your open court moves were every bit as dazzling for your era as Magic's 
are for his but if you matched up against him, he'd post you to death and 
kill you with that junior junior junior sky hook.   If he were 6'-0" like 
you, I'd give it to you.  He ain't.

	1960 1, 1992 3, Even 1.

Add a healthy Bird, Clyde Drexler, an assist machine in John Stockton, and 
yet another dead-eye shooter in Mullin and I think this 1992 team beats the 
1960 squad.  Barely though 'cause they ain't got nothing to stop a prime-time 
Wilt and a nasty Russ.   Plus Oscar's gonna get his triple-double despite 
Michael's best efforts.

This would be a dream game for the ages.

Bob Hunt

    No way Kev, not even if you teamed with Ken Screven...
    

    
     How much is USA Basketball paying Bob Ryan to defend the DT on 
    a daily basis ?

    Did anybody read the Bob Ryan article in lasted week's SI on the
    Olympic BBall teams?

  >> Did anybody read the Bob Ryan article in lasted week's SI on the
  >> Olympic BBall teams?
 
     No, and if it was anything like the series of articles he's been 
     writing for the past couple of weeks I'm glad I didn't. I ain't
     got nuttin' on him in the dead horse beating department. If you
     can imagine that.
    

        <<< OOBIE::OOBIE$DKB300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOSTON_CELTICS.NOTE;1 >>>
              -< Welcome Back to the Boston Celtics Conference! >-
================================================================================
Note 110.86                    Olympic Basketball                       86 of 97
SWAM1::AMBRAY_JU                                    139 lines   2-JUL-1992 22:15
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    	Team USA Routs Its Fan Club.
    
    	Another one happily bit the dust.
    	Argentina fell under the wheels of the Dream Team, bowing, 128-87,
    Wednesday night.  The U.S. (4-0) secured one of the top four spots in
    the Tournament of the Americas and has qualified for the Barcelona
    Olympics.
    	Actually the Argentines put on a good show, seeing as how they
    would rather have been collecting autographs.
    	"I played with great happiness against the monsters," center Hernan
    Montenegro said.  "we dreamed of playing the 11 monsters. . . This
    obviously is the highlight of our careers."
    	Other highlights of their careers included:
    	Michael Jordan throwing down a dunk and the Argentine bench
    cheering.
    	Guard Esteban De la Fuente coming to the interview room in a USA
    Basketball T-shirt.
    	Forward Sebastian Uranga interrupting himself while shooting free
    throws  to shake hands with Magic Johnson.
    	"He said, `Hey, Magic!'" Johnson said laughing.  "It was funny.  I
    think we had a little thing going.  They were just having a good time. 
    They'd look to us for approval, like, `Good shot?' I"d say, `Yeah, good
    shot.'
    	"I must have had my picture taken at halftime with their whole
    team.
    	"That guy, No. 9 [guard Marcelo Milanesio] told me, `I've got to
    have your jersey.' I told him I couldn't give it to him, but he didn't
    understand me.  So he kept asking for it through the game.
    	"You never know how popular you are and how you move people in
    other countries.  We must have been doing something right.  I guess. 
    That's what the college players could never bring.  People say: "The
    pros shouldn't be there.' But that's what they don't understand."
    	Then there was the game, such as it was.
    	The U.S. was down to nine players, Clyde Drexler having taken his
    sore right knee to the bench to join John Stockton and Larry Bird.
    	If anyone was wondering if nine Americans could still dominate, the
    answer was. . .
    	Yes.
    	The Argentines got the lead once, 5-3, when Milanesio made a three-
    pointer, but after that reality set in.
    	By halftime, the Americans led, 68-37, suggesting a heavy-duty rout
    was coming.
    	Instead, the second half-turned into garbage time and a mere
    41-point margin, the Dream Team's smallest of the tournament.
    	"We came out for the kill," Johnson said.  "We got up on them, but
    manpower-wise, we only had nine bodies.  With that many, it's tough to
    play all-out and kill them.  Plus they can play.  That one guy, No. 10
    [Juan Espil] has some nice NBA moves.  No. 8 [Montenegro] had a tryout
    with Philadelphia."
    	Johnson laughed.
    	"And one time when Mike did his thing [dunking], their whole bench
    erupted.  HOw can you go down and play defense against them?"
    	Milanesio later describe his joy at finding out that the American
    with whom he would be trading gifts before the game was none other than
    Johnson.
    	"When we met at center floor, I was very excited that it was No. 15
    shaking my hand," Milanesio said through a translator.
    	"Without any doubt, not just for Argentina but for everyone playing
    in this tournament, it is great to play with Michael Jordan, Magic.  I
    was so overwhelmed with joy."
    	
    	Notes
    	Michael Jordan led the U. S. with 24 points, eight rebounds and
    nine assists. . .Charles Barkley, who called the Canadian game a grudge
    match and said the U. S. "won back the canal" against Panama, was asked
    what this victory meant.  "I don't know," he said.  "Argentina, what
    are they famous  for? Is that where Juan Valdez is from? Oh, that's
    Colombia.  Well, I don't know what we won tonight.". . . Jordan on the
    experience this year as opposed to his '84 Olympic team: "It's similar
    in terms of fun, but I didn't know how to play golf in '84.". . . Larry
    Bird, asked if he will play next season: "Don't know.  Are you going to
    be alive when you're 90? OK, well I am. . . probably on my back."
    	In other games, Canada clinched a quarterfinal berth by defeating
    Panama, 71-62, and unbeaten Brazil scored the most points of the
    tournament in a 139-93 rout of Uruguay.  Canada got 16 points from
    former Syracuse star Leo Rautins and Panama (1-3) never recovered from
    a first half during which it shot 31% (nine for 29).  Brazil-Uruguay
    was a matchup of the 10-team fields top two scorers.  Brazil's Oscar
    Schmidt, who came in averaging 30 points per game, had 35, and Horacio
    Lopez, who averaged 31.7 in the opening three games, finished with 41
    on 16-for-25 shooting.
    
    	Boxscores
    
    United States	128
    Player		Min    FG-A    FT-A   R  A  P  T
    C. Mullin		 25	6-10	4-6   3  3  0 18
    K. Malone		 18	3-5	0-0   4  1  1  6
    D. Robinson		 18	7-9	0-0   4  0  1 14
    E. Johnson		 30	2-2	5-6   6 14  1  9
    M. Jordan		 25	9-16	2-2   8  9  1 24
    P. Ewing		 22	5-8	5-8   8  0  2 15
    C. Barkley		 22	9-14	4-4   4  1  0 23
    C. Laettner		 17	4-7	0-0   6  1  3  9
    S. Pippen		 23	5-8	0-0   2  8  1 10
    Totals		200    50-79   20-26 45 37 10 128
    
    3-point goals -  Jordan 4-8, Mullin 2-6, Laettner 1-2, Barkley 1-4, 
    		     Pippen 0-1
    Team Rebounds -  3
    Blocked Shots -  6 (Ewing 3, Robinson 2, Jordan)
    Turnovers	  - 14 (Barkley 4, Robinson 3, Pippen 3, Johnson 2, Malone,
    			Ewing)
    Steals	  - 11 (Mullin 2, Johnson 2, Ewing 2, Barkley 2, Robinson,
    			Malone, Laettner)
    
    Argentina		 87
    Player		Min    FG-A    FT-A   R  A  P  T
    H. Montenegro	 19	5-9	2-4   3  1  3 12
       Perez		 20	4-10	0-0   1  1  0  8
       Tourn		 17	1-4	0-0   2  0  1  2
    M. Milanesio	 21	2-4	0-0   2  3  1  6
    J. Espil		 16	4-10	0-0   1  4  1  9
    H. Campana		 24	8-17	0-0   4  2  3 19
    S. Uranga		 15	1-2	2-2   3  1  0  4
       Osala		 14	1-1	1-2   2  1  2  3
    E. De la Fuente	 14	1-6	0-0   3  3  1  3
       Cortijo	 	 19	1-3	0-0   1  3  0  3
       Villar		 14	6-8	5-5   3  2  3 18
       Scolari		  7	0-0	0-0   1  0  3  0
    Totals		200    34-74   10-13 26 21 18 87
    
    3-point goals -  Campana 3-3, Milanesio 2-2, Cortijo 1-1, Villar 1-1,
    		     Espil 1-3, De la Fuente 1-3, Tourn 0-1, Uranga 0-1,
                     Perez 0-2
    Team Rebounds -  1
    Blocked Shots -  2 (Montenegro 2)
    Turnovers	  - 17 (De la Fuente 3, Montenegro 2, Milanesio 2, Espil 2,
    			Campana 2, Osala 2, Tourn, Cortijo, Villar,
    			Scolari)
    Steals	  -  7 (Milanesio 2, Espil 2, Perez, Campana, De la Fuente)
    
    United States		68	60 - 128
    Argentina			37	50 -  87
    
    from LA Times
    
    
    

    	I think if the 1960 team started Russell and kept Wilt out of
    any close game they would beat the 1992 team.
    
    				/Don

    Larry flew into Boston yesterday ~11:30AM to undergo 2 weeks of
    physical therapy on his back.
    
    It's been reported that the C's will make a determination as to his
    playing in the 'pics sometime nexted week.
    
    FWIW, the official roster is due to be submitted on 7/15 (I'm pretty
    sure of the date).
    
    Any bets he won't be on it?  Any guesses on who the replacement will
    be?
    
    I remain,
    yer curious reporter,
    Kev
    

   
    I'm sitting here bumming in a big way. Shame has been brought upon my fam-
    ily name. My brother, trendoid that he is, was wearing a USA basketball t-
    shirt the last time I saw him <true fact>. I didn't ask him if or why he 
    bought it. I was too deep in shock. I couldn't have been more in shock if I
    saw him french kissing a rotweiler. Poor mom is at her wit's end and she 
    doesn't dare tell dad who has enough on his mind what with that tumorous 
    growth that looks uncannily like Richard Nixon growing out of the side of 
    his head so I guess it falls on me to straighten little brother out. So now
    the question is, what to do ? I suppose I could try and reason with him but
    I don't think there's any reasoning with someone who'd wear a DT t-shirt. 
    I've considered de-programmers but those guys charge big money and while I
    love my little brother I really have my heart set on this bamboo fly rod.
    Violence is usually a wise solution to most problems but he can kick my ass
    so that's out too. What to do, what to do...
 
    

    re: .603
    
    Ever see how Indiana Jones dealt with the guy who was doing tricks with
    his sword in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 Give him a Bob Knight t-shirt.  That'll cure him instantly.   Make sure
 it's got all the highlights of Bob's career on it ... you know, the chair,
 the Chung, the trash can, the phone, the whip, a hammer and sickle, all
 the famous BK accessories ...
 
 He'll be a new man.
 
 Bob Hunt