Conference 7.286::sports_91

    You may as well include Barkley and even Milbury from his MSG attacking
    days....
    
    The fans pay their money to be entertained.  The players make a lot
    of money to entertain them.  When I go to a game, I don't expect
    players to suffer from Mike "I have a boo-boo because I don't play
    enough"  Marshall disease.  I admire players who give their all even
    when hurt.
    
    I think the fans have to remember the players are human beings though.
    You don't see hecklers at a concert or ballet (well, maybe JoRB or
    Lufay, I don't know (smiley goes here))... So the players should be
    treated with respect.  The guys in Cleveland and the guy at the Nets
    games were being complete jerks and I'm sure wouldn't say those things
    to their faces.  Don't know what the guy said to Canseco, besides
    something about Madonna.  
    
    One the one hand, if they're being paid to entertain me, I think they
    can sit there and take it if they're not playing well.  Or not
    running out fly balls, or taking a dive when it's obvious there was no
    real foul or penalty.  They get more money if they play well, but don't 
    get less if the screw up.  That gets no sympathy from me.  But I don't 
    think that just because you're in a crowd, you have the right to yell and 
    say things you wouldn't have the guts to 1-on-1.

 As long it's not a racial slur or extremely laced with profanity I think the
 fans have right to say, scream insult any player at any time. If I can get
 under a player's skin and help my team out by doing do so then great.

 Hey alot of us in here play sports and I'm sure we've had the opposistion
 talk trash at us while playing without retalating. It's all in good fun.
 Eample: your pitcher's is a little wild in a game doesn't the other team
 ride him hard? Do you come to blows over it?

 these over payed stars have been pampered all of their professional lives,
 I think it's made them thin skinned....

 They all should be more like Rodman. He gives it and he takes it no stupid
 BS type events with him...

 mike

    Been listening to Eddie Anvilhead, REK?
    
    BTW, did anyone see the damage Andre Tippett did on that guy in a
    barroom scuffle?
    
    Mark.

    Here, according to reports, is what transpired last night at Yankees
    Stadium:  Canseco was at bat and the fan was directly behind home
    plate; Canseco hits a ball to left field but is robbed of a hit by
    Hensley Meulins (sp?); upon returning toward the duggout, Canseco
    instead goes toward the fan pointing his finger at the guy and mouthing
    to him; teammates jump out to restrain Canseco but not before he and
    the fan are face to face trading nasties; the fan is ejected by
    security.  What did he say?  According to those sitting in the
    vicinity, when Canseco was at bat, the guy was yelling stuff about his
    visit to Madonna's apartment.  When Canseco came over, the guy asked
    how Esther (Canseco's wife) was.
    
    For that you get thrown out of a game?  I think, if anything, it should
    have been the other way around.
    
    It comes as no surpise to me that this occured after Canseco was robbed
    of a hit.  Mr. Ego, have a seat.  We're tired of you.
    
    	--dan'l

I haven't thought a lot about this issue, but here's a few things to think
about.

If I go on the field at a ball game, I'm ejected, arrested and subject to
legal process.  If a ball player comes after me, what happens?

Fans tend to think that by being in the stands, there's a separation that
gives them total immunity.  

Players are a lot more thin skinned than they used to be.  If Jose wants
to diddle Madonna, good for him, but then he'd have to take the heat
when he goes through the whole National Enquirer trip, and the fans comments.

If I diddled Madonna, and we had a get together and you guys were heckling
me, what could I do about it?  Same thing for Jose.  (Agreed Dan'l, this
guys is a Mr Ego, who always falls back on the old discrimination rap
when someone calls him on it...)

Many things have changed since Gladiator days, when the crowd could decide
if the guys lived or died.  Now, all the pampered little rich boys are
out on the field, and if they come into the stands, like they did in the
Civic Center one night years ago, it's usually the fan in handcuffs who's
trying to protect himself from the pampered athlete beating the shit outta
him....

Fans shouldn't be ejected unless they pull a Donnie Wahlberg and try to
set the stadium on fire.....

'Saw

>>    For that you get thrown out of a game?  I think, if anything, it should
>>    have been the other way around.
  
  dan'l

  Hit that sucker right on the head.  I would have thought that nothing a fan
could say would give a player the right to react like that.  I mean, if fans
make noise and comments during a tennis game I get upset because there should
be silence before a serve, for example.

Hell, at a ball game, you're *supposed* to yell and make noise.

So, I suppose it depends on the sport how the fans are supposed to act.

The players should in any case always act professional, unless they are really
abused.  I recall hockey players going into the stands at the Gahden and in
New York years ago and everyone was appalled until it was known that the fans
were throwing cups of p*ss at the players.

rick

dan'l

After reading 'Saw's note, I guess you wish that you were in Valbonne again 
this year, 'cause you'd be in a real good position to diddle Madonna with her
being in Cannes right now.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

BTW, you'd have to move into something downtown, a bit kinkier than that silly
Ibis thing they hid you away in last time (they try it every time).

;^{)�

rick

    One thing that could have been behind the fans ejection is that he
    might have been drunk.  Therefore, security could have hauled him away
    for public intoxication...but then I think they'd have to arrest him
    too...no word on that.  
    
    And none of the other fans in the area said anything about the guy
    being drunk.  And they guy seemed to have all his faculties about him
    when Canseco got in his face.  Of course, I think a prune could win an
    argument against Canseco's brain power.  
    
    I think we may be in for a lawsuit here, folks.
    
    	--dan'l

    If that's all the guy did, he shouldn't be thrown out.
    
    Mike, I'd add Laimbeer to that list with Rodman.  The most hated man
    in sports, just sits there and applauds to the fans when they get on
    his case.  You don't see him throwing chairs or getting in fans'
    faces...
    
    

                                   
    I actually thought the line the guy supposedly delivered to Albert
    Belle was pretty clever ("keg party after the game at my house, Joey").
    I mean, if that's all he was saying that's pretty mild.  Tasteless
    maybe, yes, but not the out-and-out profane viciousness that you often
    hear at the ballpark.  The thing with Canseco is a little different.
    When Canseco barked back at the guy, he came down to the railing
    looking for a piece of Jose (bad idea, dude)!  The Madonna line is one
    thing, but once the guy started moving towards the field he's outta
    there, no questions asked...
    
    I was very surprised that Belle only got a seven game suspension (this is 
    why I felt Roger Clemens' suspension was overly severe given baseball's
    normally lenient punitive standards).  What Belle did could set a very 
    dangerous precedent.  He quite literally could put someone in a coma
    firing a ball into the stands, and it could just as easily be a kid
    sitting next to the drunk as not.  Dr. Brown struck out looking on this
    decision.
    
    glenn
    

 True Walt and lord knows Lambieer gets more insults hurled at him than Dennis.

 Man, if i diddled Madonna I's expect you guys to throw me a party and I just
 might move in front of Dan-l on the all time envious list....

 ;^)

 mike

    
    Didn't one of the nasty boys Dibble of the Reds get suspended for
    throwing a baseball into the centerfield stands?  I read in the
    paper that he was sorry it happened and the worse thing was that
    he could have injured his arm.  I guess he threw the ball from
    the pitchers mound.  How many games as he suspended for?
    
    \pjb

    Maybe I'm in the minority, but if I was in Jose's shoes and a fan
    started making comments about my wife or something racial, I'd knock
    his teeth out and be prepared to deal with the consequences.
    
    Mark.

    You have to give "Don't Call Me Joey" credit.  Instead a embarrassing
    baseball by flinging a wild throw up there, he took his time, kept 
    his delivery natural, and plunked the guy square in the middle of the
    chest.  Thump.  That's the way things are when you're going right, and
    the Indians are on a roll!
    
    MrT

    You guys are unbelievable. "Gotta give the fans (and I'm using the word
    loosely) some leeway" ... Players are too thin-skinned.
    
    Part of the problem with society today is that people are too willing
    to shirk responsibility for their actions.
    
    People go to games to say things that they would NEVER, EVER say to
    another person's face (without risking serious injury) - and have the
    gall to get offended when someone else has a problem with it.
    
    Geez ....
    
    The idiot who made the alcohol crack to Belle - why did he say it ? To
    be as hurtful as possible. He knew damned well that Belle had a
    drinking problem, and it's a safe bet that he knew that Belle didn't
    have the longest of fuses.
    
    Now ask yourself, would this guy have said that to Belle on the street?
    Or to you or I ? Hell no. 
    
    And you know why too. 
    
    So what does the fact that Player X's salary is read as a green light
    for personal abuse ? Player X is paid to play sports, PERIOD. Not to
    have his intimate personal life dragged in the mud by a fool with more
    guts than brains - and juding by most of them, they have precious few
    guts.
    
    And it's double trouble for players in the 90's. In the old days,
    players could deal it back just as well as the fans. But if you do that
    now, then you get castigated for "not being a good role model".
    
    Hell, *PARENTS* are supposed to be the real role models - what message do
    kids get from adults who sling racial slurs and other below the belt
    comments ?
    
    I don't condone Belle's action, and while Canseco may not get sympathy
    votes, at least he didn't touch the fool, and I bet the sight of Jose
    will cause any idiot to develop some common sense quick.
    
    I like to razz players as much as anyone, but I have to beleive there
    are some subjects off bounds - race, drug or alcohol problems, stuff
    like that. Tell it to your friends - but don't submit to mob behavior.
    And I beleive that those of you endorsing crude 'fan' conduct indict
    yourselves as well. 
    
    People who are willing to go with the mob, IMO, are dangerous. They'll
    do things in a group that they would never do alone.
    
    Remember that the next time you moan about society ... :-(
    
    DrM

    Wasn't Clemens blasted not too long ago for riding one of the As'
    pitchers (Welch) about his past drinking problems?  Now when a fan does
    the same thing it's no big deal?

    
    > Wasn't Clemens blasted not too long ago for riding one of the As'
    > pitchers (Welch) about his past drinking problems?  Now when a fan does
    > the same thing it's no big deal?
    
    No, what I'm saying is that if Belle is close enough to the heckler to
    plunk him in the chest with a fastball he's also close enough to point
    the clown out to an usher and have him escorted out.  What Belle did
    was completely inexcusable, and this apologetic "poor Albert has a
    known temper problem and the fans should respect that" is ridiculous
    and irrelevant.  Belle is paid to play the game, and especially
    considering his own spotty track record of respecting others' person 
    and property, *not* to serve as stadium enforcer.  The same goes for 
    Canseco.  There are people who get paid to watch the crowd, and no 
    matter how offensive or degrading a fan may be, the ballplayer 
    absolutely has to maintain control and let those folks do *their* 
    job.
    
    glenn
    

Mike --

I wouldn't diddle Madonna, even with YOUR diddler ;^)

She just doesn't do it for me.  She used to, but then she got all
fit and severe looking.  Right now I think the girl needs a good enema....8^)


Dr M. --

Read your psychology books.  EVERY human being (you and I included) have the
potential to be a mob animal.  It's a danger in every one of us.
Perhaps that is one reason why I don't particularly care for crowds.



Getting on my soapbox:

	Personally, I think this goes much deeper than fan and player.
	
	I remember one time at New Britain, when a Red Sox player
	Julio something-or-other, was attempting to play his way back
	up to the bigs after a statutory rape scandal.  Part of the
	crowd was on him about that.  Soon, another part of the crowd
	were yelling encouraging things to him.
	
	Why are some people so intent on hurting another?  Perhaps because
	they feel inferior themselves.  Don't those on the bottom of the
	ladder feel as if they need someone one rung lower?

	I can't answer it.  Perhaps it all comes down to something that
	comes out of that walnut sized lump of an animal brain left over
	at the top of our spinal cords.... who knows.


	On the other hand, when someone sees a walking ego like Jose,
	it's probably hard to resist heckling him.....

'Saw

    Agree with you, Doc.  Unfortunately, it's not just sports fans that are
    jerks.  
    
    Anyway, I can't figure out something here.  If players are supposed to
    just let these things go by, that would indicate a non-agressive
    behavior.   I want athletes who ARE agressive. Not to a Pete Rose
    level, where one hurts another during an allstar game, but at least
    where the player gives all he's got, in an attempt to help his team win
    the game.
    
    It's up to baseball to try and control this fan behavior.  The players
    shouldn't, and shouldn't have to, but I'll take the players side in
    many cases where the insults are racial in nature, or refer to a
    medical/mental problem.  Anyone recall the crap that Jim Eisenrich
    (sp?) took because of a medical problem?  Jimmy Piersall, too.  It
    isn't something new, but it may be more prevalent.  Whatever, it's out
    of place.  
    
    lEe

    
    Hawk, do you remember what the Sox "fans" did to Eisnrich (sp)
    of KC now and Minny then?
    
    Its one thing to cheer your team on and its another thing to be
    a total jerk at the game.
    
    Yes, you are still going to get people who go to games and get 
    falling down drunk. These people should have saved the price of
    a ticket and bought another case of beer.
    
    
    REK
    

    Heckling is a time-honored part of baseball.
    
    At one time, heckling was limited to a player's on-field performance. 
    I think that's ok.  Call him a butterfingers or whatever.  :-)  Many of
    our old-time heroes were of less than sterling character off the field,
    but their off-field exploits weren't reported on.  So fans couldn't
    yell and scream about anything *but* their on-field performance.
    
    Personally, I don't like loud and obnoxious fans.  However, in every
    case that I remember, when a player reacted to abuse from a fan, that
    abuse was targetted at some aspect of the player that *was not related
    to his on-field performance*.  For me, that's the key, the point where
    it ceases to be "good sport" and becomes grounds for ejecting the fan.
    
    A&W

    I was impressed by Belle's throw as well.  They showed it in slo-mo on
    ESPN, and all I could think of was "You mean he actually hit the guy he
    was throwing at?!"
    
    Another thing that's troubling is that every single punishment is
    automatically appealed.  Clemens, Dibble, Belle, etc.  Why can't they
    just take their punishment and put the incidents behind them, and the
    fans, instead of keeping them in the headlines?
    
    But remember, it might seem like a recent trend but if you look back,
    it's not really.  Kevin McHale applied the sleeper hold to a Milwaukee
    fan some years ago; Jim Rice went into the stands at Yankee Stadium;
    Dave Righetti once heaved a ball out of Exhibition Stadium in
    frustration (didn't hit anyone as Dibble did).  I'm sure people can
    remember lots more.
    
    Dan

    
    
    	You gotta wonder what it would of been like if Jackie Robinson and
    the other "first" blacks reacted to the slurs and garbage they heard.
    
    	To think that these guys endured all this abuse for quite a few
    years from fans and teammates, the stuff that goes on now looks pretty
    trivial.
    
    	I saw the incident last night and the fan wasn't within 15 feet 
    of Jose.  
    
    	I do think that the fans shouldn't be given a free license to abuse
    any player, but said player does not have the right to react in an
    abusive manner either.
    
    	It still upsets me to remember a game I went to at Fenway where
    some jerks were abusing Rice with some really racist comments.  I'd
    simply never heard anyone talked about like that let alone heard
    someone yell those things.  After a while, I had to tell the jerks that
    if they couldn't say it to his face, they'd better shut up, or I'd 
    take care of it.  I mean, here I am at a game, paying good money to see
    it, and I gotta listen to two clowns yell garbage at a player for an 
    entire game.  Geez, some of these "fans" should get a life!
    
    	Overall, I just think these incidents are reflections of our
    society.  Sad to say it, but if you say it long and loud enough, people
    will believe it.
    
    	Whatever happened to just going to the game to enjoy it?
    
    
    							bill..g.
    

    The flip side a this burning issue  8^o  is the fack that player's
    are nowadays held to a different set a behavioral standards.
    
    Take Nails' crash the other night.  I mean, big deal.  Anybody else
    does that it makes the Police Blotter, he hires a lawyer, gets fined,
    his insurance rates skyrocket, and nobody in the neighborhood has 
    a_inkling.  What does Nails' crash have to do with baseball?  When 
    Joe Schmoe crashes his Plymouth Valiant why no haidlines, isn't his
    boozy driving every bit as dangerous?  Tabloid journalism.  Bah.
    
    Only thing about Nails crashing that brand new 500 SL like he did he
    should be horsewhipped (by a_auto writer, although I'd volunteer).
    
    Also, noticed how athletes no longer have constitutional rights against
    unreasonable search and seizure or invasion a privacy?  A guy knocks down 
    a six pack nowadays and his former team's owner leaks it to the press who
    happily report it.  
    
    My compliments to Joey Belle.  After undergoing public sessions a maudlin
    psychobabbalysis, he took his time and delivered a "treatment" to a fellow
    behavior problem no doubt teaching him a valuable lesson.
    
    MrT

    Wait a minute.  Jose, in coming back to the dugout, pointed to the guy
    and started yelling back.  To me, he is the instigator regardless of
    what the guy said...and the fact that it WASN'T racial makes it all the
    worse.  
    
    Jose got jobbed of a hit and decided to take it out on a fan.  That's
    his nature.  My x-galpal, Linda, went to high school with Jose and
    Ozzie and she is one of his biggest detractors.  It's not often that
    Cubans don't stick up for one another because they feel they share this
    common brotherhood.  But those who know Jose personally really don't
    like him.
    
    Fans are part of the game and the players have to deal with it and not
    become the enforcers.  Here's one of my favorite stories:
    
    1982, Ohio University Basketball game.  We always sat directly in back
    of the OU bench.  Ball State was in town with their big Purdue transfer
    who was the hotest shooter in the NCAA at the time.  (Can't remember his
    name, strange last name if I recall.)  Gene Keady told the kid
    (Palombizio?) he couldn't shoot, so he transferred to Ball State to
    avenge this insult and he was doing quite nicely.
    
    But from the moment the game started, my friends and I screamed at him
    over and over, "Gene Keady was right!"  He shot 30�% that night and I
    remember Danny Nee turning around to us at one point and giving us a
    look like, "You guys are brutal but keep it up."
    
    I really feel I helped my team win that night.  There are limits to how
    far you should go and everyone views those limits differently.  I view
    yelling things about Canseco's visit to Madonna's place not beyond
    those limits and Jose should have restrained himself.  Face it, he was
    just POed about getting robbed of a hit and decided to take it out on
    someone other than himself.
    
    	--dan'l

I think a player can be 100% agressive on the field and be a gentleman
at the same time.  FWIW, I don't  hold that agressiveness on the field 
correlates to an agressive, "in your face" attitude off the field.

When I'm on the pitch, and I get the chance, I'll drill someone as hard
as I can, but most people who REALLY know me, know that I've not raised
a fist in anger since Jr High....


I don't like hearing people yell racial things, or things about problems
a player has.  If someone wants to hold those beliefs, it's their God
given right, yet when those views are expressed to abuse another person,
who is, for all intents and purposes, defenseless (ie on the field -- what
can they do?) it pisses me off.

On the other hand, I can't condone a person who would reply to heckling
by beaning them with a ball.  First off, the potential for injury to
other innocent folks (ie the girl that received Barkley's loogie) is there.
Second, these people would present a far better example by ignoring it.

Imagine a young child who idolizes a ball player.  The guy next to the kid
in the stands is constantly haranging the player, on subjects from the
size of his penis to the heritage of his mother, to his latest diddlee.
The ball player climbs into the stands, and before security gets there,
beats the shit outta the fan.

What has this youngster learned?  That the way to solve problems is with
your fists.  NOT smart.


Sorry to get on this soapbox, folks.....

'Saw

    Dan'l, what about the comments regarding Jose's wife?
    
    Mark.

>    Dan'l, what about the comments regarding Jose's wife?
    
    According to reports (those sitting in earshot), the guy was yelling
    things about Jose and Madonna.  Then when Mr. Ego confronted him, the
    guy asked, "How's Esther?"   There is nothing insulting about the
    latter at all...and think about this...if Jose were innocent of
    "diddling" would he be so defensive?
    
    But regardless, whether Jose is like a prayer to Madonna or making her
    feel like a virgin, he's still married and had to know the consequences
    of visiting the biggest vamp on the scene today.  If he didn't, he's
    dumber than I thought.
    
    	--dan'l

>    As far as rudeness of fans go, when you go to a ballgame, you take your
>    chances.  If you're that concerned REK, buy tickets for the non-alcohol
>    section/s.  That still doesn't guarantee that some fans near you won't
>    be rude, but it probably helps...
>    
>    Hawk

  This is what I was referring to Hawk, I mention drunken fans (males)
ruining the game for kids who will always remember going to the ballpark
and watching their favorite players on the field. My 11 year-old has saved
every program of every game I took him to, this is something he will
always remember. 

I remember the first games that I went to, I don't remember the "fans" 
getting on the players back about their personal life.

REK


That person who got hit by the ball in Cleveland. What do you think he's 
doing right now... Bragging to all his friends on how he got Belle 
suspended.  He brought Belle down to his gutter level... Its called the 
"Nibble Effect". You pick on other people until you bring them down to
your level....

    What they (Canseco and Belle) did was wrong. Plain and simple. I woulda
    yelled back and I really don't know how much it woulda taken to get me
    into the stands stomping some ignorant fan. When I was in litle league
    I useta get heckled by the same family every time we played their son's
    team. Somehow they found out my grandfather was an alcoholic and
    grilled me about it while I was pitching. Our coach asked them to stop
    and they didn't. It hurt and I yelled back at them, then I beaned the
    son and he came after me. After I fed him his teefs I was tossed. I was
    11. I've hated hecklers ever since. I almost got in a fight at a Dodger
    game cuz the guy was grilling Steve Garvey about his soon-to-be
    divorce. If someone screws up then ok get on him but private lives
    should be left private. That doesn't excuse what Canseco and Belle did.
    Funny you guys mention Laimbeer. I hate Laimbeer as a player and saw him in
    Denver 2 years ago. He took a lot of heat from some guys a few rows
    from the bench but he barely acknowledged them, even when they tossed
    beer on him at halftime. I always thought he was a jerk on the court and 
    hell, I still think so, but that day I thought he had class. 
    
    Oh well, end of sermon.

    If you get paid you have to be sportsmanlike, but if you pay you don't?

Re: Hawk, REK

I think there are two separate issues here.  

As far as hurling insults at a player is concerned, I generally agree that a fan
has the right to "ride" a player, but only to the extent that they would to the 
player's face.  In other words, it goes beyond the barrier to say racial slurs, 
or attack a very personal weakness (drugs, alcohol, etc.).  That doesn't, of 
course give the player the right to go after them, but everyone has their limit.

The other issue you guys are barking at is the old debate about people getting 
drunk at games and causing a nusence.  Each of the past three Red Sox games I 
have gone to, I have ended up near some drunkards who get toatally tanked, and 
decided they wanted to start a fight.  Last night it was between them and the 
guy in the row in front of me.  You'ld better believe that they impacted my
enjoyment of the game, and that I resented it.  I wasn't there with a family, so
I did not feel compelled to take seats in the family section, and those seats 
sell very quickly anyway.  I think something needs to be done about this.  How 
does it work out in Foxboro these days, selling only light alcohol beer?

=Bob= 

    Ya got me thinking there, Hawk.  Was it worth it?  At the time, yes. 
    Now, looking back it's hard to say and probably inappropriate since I
    was a different person back then.  However, I still have respect for
    the creativity of the Duke fans so that might give you some insight to
    how my mind works.
    
    But aren't we all knocked during different points in our lives, either
    verbally or physically or psychologically?  I have and every time, I've
    become a better, stronger person...mainly because I didn't lower myself
    to that level of knocking back, or if I did I learned what little I
    gained from it.  
    
    I don't think people like Canseco will ever better themselves as people
    as long as they keep fighting back and ignoring authority...and maybe
    they don't want to.  Their choice.  And it's my choice to dig them for
    it if I so choose (not that I would, though sometimes that college
    sophomore attitude I had still slips out...especially during softball
    games).  
    
    I guess what this comes down to is, "what are you willing to do to win
    or atleast defend yourself."  Everyone has a different level. 
    I myself, wish I could emulate Christian Laettner's coolness and am
    making strives to do so (especially during softball games).
    
    	--dan'l

    
> What does Nails' crash have to do with baseball? 
    
    Well, it put he and a teammate on the shelf for a couple months.
    That's pretty hard to ignore no matter what the journalists know and
    report.  Other than that major blow to his team (which will continue 
    to pay him under his guaranteed contract), your point is valid...
    
    Some other points of clarification: 
    
    From the testimony of ones who were there, that Eisenreich episode in
    Fenway has been extremely exaggerated and now approaches the status of
    urban myth.  Apparently when Eisenreich went into his seizure, some of
    the fans thought he was joking around with them and, naturally, they 
    responded with laughter and good-natured catcalls, etc.  No one really
    knew what the hell was going on as it's not something you see every
    day.  The incident was far from a drunken mob cackling hideously over 
    an invalid.  I usually sit out in the centerfield bleachers, and 
    from my experience there's occasionally some rowdiness but rarely 
    have I seen anything overtly vicious.  More often not the
    centerfielder, especially the more good-natured ones (Hendu, Darryl 
    Boston, Mookie Wilson to name a few) give it right back and have fun 
    with the crowd, and I think that's part of the appeal of the game.  I 
    certainly have no problems bringing my kids out there...
    
    As for Canseco, my perception is that part of the problem is that he
    *wants* to be in the limelight, and relishes it.  Who brought the
    personal 900 number to baseball so that fans could keep up on his every
    intimate thought (now that's scary!)?  As such, and while there's a
    breaking point, I think Jose's got to be able to take some heat if
    the likes of jetsetting with Madonna is the image he wants to 
    cultivate...
    
    glenn
    

    I think the million-dollar question here is, what Madonna song did the
    Yankees Stadium organist play on Canseco's next at bat?  The organist
    at Three Rivers wouldn't have hesitated, I can almost guarantee you.
    
    Seriously, anyone know how Canseco was treated by the Bronx fans during
    his post-incident at bats?  Must have been brutal.  For the record, he
    went 0-3 last night.
    
    	--dan'l

    Alot of people (the media included) like to fall back on the old "if he
    paid his way in, he can do just about anything he wants".  How far does
    this philosophy go when attending a Broadway show or a movie?

re Jose's 900 number:

	Press 3 to hear what it's like to diddle Madonna

    >	Press 3 to hear what it's like to diddle Madonna
    
    Saw, unless you'd say that to Jose's face I demand that you retract
    this comment RIGHT NOW!
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
     

I'd say that to his face, no problem.  (who's got a picture of Jose they
could send me so I can tell him that ;^))


Madonna, she's SUCH a babe, she could give a dog a bone....
Sha-WING!!!!!

'Saw

    >I thought (Laimbeer) had class.
    
    Jessie the Bob, he does have class.  Did you see that pregame 
    piece CBS did last year on Bill's family background?  Now, normally
    when I hear the leader to these too-frequent pieces a maudlin 
    pandering I switch channels, knowing that it's gonna be the usual
    race-voyerism/self-congratulations exercise explaining how the
    player's dad left, welfare, strong-willed mother, actually graduated
    from high school, bought Mom the nice house, actually never did any
    hard time... you know, the usual.
    
    But I had to watch Bill's piece.  It showed him and his old man 
    sitting in the family homestead, as I remember about a, oh, $3 million
    dollar pad overlooking the Pacific Palisades, and his old main mocking
    Bill Jr. for having gone to the NBA, where he steal's only making a 
    fraction a what he coulda been making in Pop's company.  It was a
    scream, the only time I wasn't fixated by Marv Albert's 38th street
    discount rug...
    
    MrT

    Yep, MrT - Laimbeer claims he's the only guy in the NBA who makes less
    money than his father does.  When he signed his first contract, his dad
    said "Not a bad starting salary" and then told him he'd make more
    working for Dad...
    
    JD

    Personaly, I think that in most case both the fans and the player are
    out of bounds.  Eject both of them. That should solve the problem of
    who's right/wrong, along with eliminating a few law suits.
    
    Also, the news this morning is that Mark Gasteau, (sp?) former NY Jet
    Def. End, broke some bartender's nose. Apparently, the bartender and
    some customers were harassing Mark about his playing ability.  So much
    for not saying things face-to-face.  As for the results, not too smart
    picking on someone twice your size.
    
    This business of invading the private life of celebrities is getting
    out of hand.  Razzing a player in the ballpark is one thing, but a
    person shouldn't be required to become a hermit just because that
    person is or once was a public figure.
    
    If you were in a resturant with your family, and say... someone came up
    and wanted to know the details of your sex life, what would you do? 
    The sad fact is that a TV personality would probubly be slapped with a
    lawsuit for defending him/herself.
    
    Commander Scott

    Mark Gastineau is the player you were thinking of.
    
    The only athletes I really know are the Patriots and when I've
    travelled with the team, we've been fairly anonymous.  Of course, we
    were in Knoxville, St Louis and Montreal (they only take me to the best
    places).  Then again, the players aren't on the road all that much.
    
    I'm surprised that more baseball players don't snap.  From the
    beginning of spring training all the way until the end of the season,
    they are playing just about every day and on the road at least half the
    time.  They are in contact with fans every day at the ball park and in
    the team hotels, which is a prime spot for autograph collectors.  I
    wouldn't want to be in their shoes for a minute.
    
    John

    
    
    At the Orioles-A's game last night, a row of shirtless guys had their
    chests painted with "I-<international symbol for diddle>-M-A-D-O-N-N-A".
    I plead guilty; I couldn't help but laugh...
    
    glenn
    

    Did Jose confront them too or is wearing it different than saying it? 
    

Too many guys....  Jose didn't have the 'nads to take them all on....


Question:  

	Can I trademark "diddle" and "diddler"?  I think I should since
	I coined the term in here and it is starting to get widespread
	use.....


'Saw

    Good think Jose' didn't play for the Celtics - he'd a_been a mass
    murderer - heck Johnny Most was always saying players were fiddlin' and
    diddlin' !!!
    
    JD

    
    re: Lambeer
    
    	I had a chance to eat lunch with Bill in November at the Hall of
    Fame banquet, and I asked him if he "still" made less than his dad.
    He replied with a chuckle, "Not any more!"  So that story about him
    making less than his dad was true at one point, but not now.
    
    	Just for the record, Bill was a pretty decent guy to sit and talk
    to.
    
    								bill..g.
    

Middle for diddle?

Qu'est-ce que c'est?

I'll admit I've heard it before....

Oh well, I'll just have to start using that comic Paulie-someone_or_other's
expression -- glazing a donut.....

'Saw

    OH, please, no......
    
    That's just too much, even for this conference.
    
    A&W

    In defense of the Fan:
    
    1.  A fan pays his money to see the athlete perform.
    2.  Fans make athletes the 'stars' that they are.  Without fans
        to buy tickets, watch games, etc. where would they be?  If the
        fans give their team undying support for winning why can't they
        give them flak when they lose?  Its a two-way street.
    3.  A lot of people go to a sporting event to wind down and relax.
        Each person has his/her own way of doing so.  What some find
        funny another may find repulsive.
    
    In defense of the Athlete:
    
    No, they shouldn't have to take abuse; but they should prepare
    themselves for it...over the course of a career anyone is sooner
    or later going to take some abuse.  This, in my opinion, is what
    separates the Professionals from the 'wannabe' professionals.
    
    Players get grief from fans all the time....they should ignore it
    or turn it in favor for them.  Two incidents that stick out in my
    mind are:
    
    1.  In the 89-90 Semifinals against the Canadiens last year, Guy
        Carbonneau got a penalty (game was at the GaHden).  While in
        the penalty box some stoooopid fan threw popcorn at Guy.  Well
        Guy musta been pretty hungry because he simply started eating
        the popcorn.....what a classic scene!  To this day I can remember
        thinking how mad he must've been but managed to turn the table
        on that fan.
    
    2.  Earlier this season, when the B's were playing the Quebec Nordiques
        at the Colisee in Quebec, Chris Nilan got ejected from the game.
        The fans, p.o.'d that Milbury didn't pick LeFleur to be an All-Star
        were extremely bad.  Well, Chrissy boy just went off the ice,
        smiling, looking up at the crowd and was blowing kisses to them.
        I don't think I stopped laughing for five minutes!
    
    In essence, Jos� should've just ignored the fan......had the fan
    realized that his taunting wasn't bothering Jos�, he probably would've
    stopped.
    
    Sheesh.....ya didn't see Wade Boggs pitch a fit when opposing
    teams' crowds would chant "Margo, Margo" everytime he got to bat.
    
    Oh yeah, and as mentioned earlier, if Jos� was so "innocent" it
    shouldn't bother him.  As my mom would always tell me "Only the guilty
    defend themselves before they're accused."
    
    J
    
    2.  

>>>>>>Middle for diddle?

>>>>>>>>Qu'est-ce que c'est?

No, no, take it 'Saw - it's yours!!

It's what you do at the beginning of - ready?:

a darts game!!

The player who throws his/her dart closest to the bullseye gets to start!!

rick

OH......

I knew you did that to start in darts, I just didn't know that's what
ya called it!

(Learn something new every day.....)

'Saw

    �>>>>>>Middle for diddle?  (in darts)
    
    Shouldn't that be "diddle for the middle"?

    
>>    Shouldn't that be "diddle for the middle"?

Well, in the case of Jose and Madonna, yes.

In darts it's middle for diddle although what you wrote makes more sense.  :*}
(Makes me think it can only be an English expression!)

rick

    In all the darts I've played, I've always heard it as "diddle for the
    middle".

    FWIW, it is reported that Canseco had the fan thrown out.  Security was
    only enforcing Canseco's will.  How nice.
    
    	--dan'l

>>    In all the darts I've played, I've always heard it as "diddle for the
>>    middle".

Mac,

This must be one of those England-does-it-differently jobs.  In Canada we didnt
play things like darts when we were kids - we canoed, chopped down trees, 
played hockey, etc. (:*{))), so I learned darts over here much later.
So maybe the diddle thing looks like this:

          UK                  Rest of World

       to-matt-o               to-mate-o   ( I get 'em with these two
       po-tate-o               po-tate-o     words every time!!)
       drive on left           drive on right - nearly everywhere
       middle-for-diddle       diddle-for-madonna
       beans for breakfast     beans for dinner
       curtsey for queen       fart at queen

HTH,

rick