Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Oops.  My new P-name is too long.  Oh, well.
    
    As the old SPORTS was in its last days, the question of whether or not
    the X-man for Eddie Johnson + picks trade was a good one for the Soups.
    
    I think the record speaks for itself.  Seattle has been winning way
    more games without X than with him.  McKey is finally out of his stupor
    and is playing very well.  Kemp is inconsistent, but has also been 
    playing much better since X left.  
    
    I keep reading the box scores, and I'm glad to see X is doing well with
    the Suns, but by moving him, the Sonics are becoming the team that
    KC wants.  They're moving the ball well, rebounding, taking good shots,
    playing good D, and just generally are playing more as a team since
    X and his 1 assist average are gone.
    
    Pete
    

    The lineup changes involving Kemp and McKey might have more to do with
    their streak than X leaving.  Kemp deserved to start.
    
    Afterall, EJ can't be playing that much can he?  Do you have his
    averages since becoming a Sonic (i.e., minutes, points, rebs, asts)?
    
    X had his best game as a Sun on Friday night vs. Houston.  I'm not sure
    what his line was, but he had 33 points.
    
    Mike

    re: .2
    
    Stats for Johnson?  From the Seattle Times???  HaHaHa!  You're lucky if
    you can find out who leads the NBA in scoring in the Times.
    
    Actually, last night I did dig out EJ's stats for the season to date.
    For some reason, they don't have EJ's Seattle-only stats.  Here they
    are:
    
      Games        30
      Minutes    21.0
      FG's    170-349
      FG%        .487
      FT's      62-72
      FT%        .861
      Pts ave.   13.7
      Rebs        2.7
      Assists     1.1
    
    My feeling is that his Seattle stats are up from his Phoenix stats.  
    I'm pretty sure he's been shooting over 50% for the Soops.
     
    Maybe Jeff Needle can help out with EJ's Seattle stats.
    
    EJ is playing fairly well.  He's shot them back into a couple of games,
    but his usefullness has diminished since Ellis came back.  But, if you
    believe the papers, Ellis is on the block and might not be around much
    longer.  Ellis has been incredibly inconsistent.  He had no points
    through three quarters, then poured in 12 in the 4th in the win last
    week over the Lakers.  Plus, Ellis is keeping Barros on the bench.  
    Dana has been a great jump-start for the team on the few occassions
    he's played substantial minutes.
    
    Pete
    

>    My feeling is that his Seattle stats are up from his Phoenix stats.  
>    I'm pretty sure he's been shooting over 50% for the Soops.
    
    I'd guess the same, but I like to know for sure.  I don't think it is a
    big enough difference for me to not trade him though (rotis owner).
    
    Mike

>>    Maybe Jeff Needle can help out with EJ's Seattle stats.

Unfortunately, USA Today On-line no longer breaks out the stats for previous
teams.  I'd guess that they also don't in the paper but I haven't bought one in
a long time.  Today's paper has the NBA stats in it if anyone has a copy.

Here are the 'sonics stats as of today:

SEATTLE SUPERSONICS
Player              G  MIN   FG  FGA   FG%   FT  FTA   FT%
MCKEY,D            33 1164  224  424  .528   90  106  .849
KEMP,S             33  936  192  372  .516  119  182  .654
THREATT,S          33  892  202  388  .521   64   84  .762
ELLIS,D            16  384   92  188  .489   24   32  .750
JOHNSON,E          32  684  182  386  .472   68   78  .872
PAYTON,G           33  981  121  273  .443   27   38  .711
DAILEY,Q           19  239   57  124  .460   29   47  .617
BARROS,D           31  412   86  162  .531   45   48  .938
POLYNICE,O         31  617   97  194  .500   31   56  .554
CAGE,M             33  890   84  167  .503   24   36  .667
MCMILLAN,N         31  494   38  104  .365   21   34  .618
CORZINE,D          13   80   10   23  .435    7   11  .636
MEENTS,S            8   30    4   14  .286    2    2 1.000

From the Elias Sports Bureau as of 15Jan91.

SEATTLE SUPERSONICS
Player              3FG 3FGA OREB TREB  AST STL  TO BLK  PF  PTS  AVG
MCKEY,D               1    5   67  189   77  42  85  27 101  539 16.3
KEMP,S                0    2  119  268   44  31  86  49 123  503 15.2
THREATT,S             2    7   12   43  105  46  74   5  87  470 14.2
ELLIS,D              13   47   12   41   31  17  25   1  29  221 13.8
JOHNSON,E             9   37   35   92   39  20  40   4  71  441 13.8
PAYTON,G              1    9   43   95  231  78  93   6 111  270  8.2
DAILEY,Q              0    1    8   24   16   5  16   1  19  143  7.5
BARROS,D             12   29   10   45   69   8  33   1  26  229  7.4
POLYNICE,O            0    0   67  166   10  14  34  14  64  225  7.3
CAGE,M                0    1   69  241   32  34  30  17  80  192  5.8
MCMILLAN,N            5   15   30   87  133  35  43   8  79  102  3.3
CORZINE,D             0    0    7   17    1   1   0   2  12   27  2.1
MEENTS,S              0    0    2    3    1   4   1   3   2   10  1.3

I don't have today's USA Today yet, so I used last weeks.  EJ's minutes
went up 2 to 22.5 min/pg.  X's minutes have stayed the same at 35 min/pg.
EJ appears to be pretty much the same.  X has dropped off in scoring and
increased in rebounds and assists.

Name          Team   G  Mins  Pts  Reb  Ast  Pts/pg  Reb/pg   Ast/pg  DEC/pg
Eddie Johnson PHO   16  324   209  46   18    13.1    2.9       1.1    17.1 
Eddie Johnson SEA   16  360   232  46   21    14.5    2.9       1.3    18.7

X. McDaniel   SEA   16  562   344  90   38    21.5    5.6       2.4    29.5
X. McDaniel   PHO   13  455   234  98   36    18.0    7.5       2.8    28.3

    Last night the Sonics played a good game for 3 quarter before losing
    to the Lakers in LA by 9.  Kemp had 9 blocked shots!  The bench was
    nonexistent, with EJ going 0-6.  The Soops went 9-19 from the line,
    which didn't help either. 
    
    Payton had a good game against Magic, with 11 assists and 12 points.
    One the other end, however, Magic showed Payton a few things, scorching 
    him many times on drives to the hoop.  Magic had about 33 points.
    
    Mike H, I see where X finally had one of his patented 2-10 games in the
    win over Detroit.  Expect more of these.
    
    There was an interesting column in the paper comparing Payton's rookie
    year with those of other elite point guards: Stockton, KJ and Price.
    It was meant to mute the fans' disappointment with Payton's season so
    far.  None of the above guards did much during their rookie years.  In
    fact, Payton's numbers are better than all of them.  
    
    If Polynice keeps playing well and becomes a legitimate center, the 
    Sonics could be a very good team by next season.  That's a big "if",
    but not out of the question.
    
    Pete
    

>    Mike H, I see where X finally had one of his patented 2-10 games in the
>    win over Detroit.  Expect more of these.
    
    everyone shot poorly in that game.  Defense on both sides was
    impressive.
    
>    There was an interesting column in the paper comparing Payton's rookie
>    year with those of other elite point guards: Stockton, KJ and Price.
>    It was meant to mute the fans' disappointment with Payton's season so
>    far.  None of the above guards did much during their rookie years.  In
>    fact, Payton's numbers are better than all of them.  
    
    KJ didn't start until he came to Phoenix.  He rode the pine in
    Cleveland because of Price.
    
    Mike

Re. .7 -- Pete, for us Laker fans back east, could you give us
some details about how the Lakers played?  Sounds like Divac
had a good game.  Did the Lakers run at all, or was it more
of Dunleavy's half-court offense?

Thanks,

Laker_Ken

    re: .8
    
    Mike, granted, not all of the comparisons were exactly fair.  Some of
    the guards named didn't start, some did.  The point was that the fans
    should lower their expectations of Payton.  If guys like KJ, Price and
    Stockton didn't exactly set the league on fire their first years, there
    is hope that Payton can become a first-rate point guard like they are.
    If Payton can become 2/3's the guard KJ is, I'll be overjoyed.  IMO, 
    KJ is THE reason Phoenix is such a good team.  The Chambers-McDaniel-
    Ellis Sonics from 4 years ago had comparable personnel except at the 
    point.  If they had a point guard then, they'd be in the position
    Phoenix is now.
    
    re: .9
    
    Laker_Ken, I didn't know you were an easterner.  Someone who's a
    fervent a fan as you usually has a connection with the team's city.
    You from LA?
    
    Anyway, the Lakers played half-court until the 4th quarter.  Worthy
    was held in check by McKey, but Vlade has a great game.  He even
    brought the ball all the way upcourt a couple of times.  The Lakers
    looked pretty sluggish through the first 3 quarters.  They needed 
    someone to light a fire under them.  Scott did in the 4th, popping in
    several long jumpers.  The Lakers took advantage of poor play by the
    Sonics reserves when they got the running game going.  
    
    The Lakers just aren't the "showtime" bunch of recent years.  AC seemed
    lost out there.  Perkins didn't do much either.  They are still a very
    good team, but seem to lack that certain something that made them
    the best team I ever saw.
    
     Pete

    The think they lack is Riley. DontLeaveMe(tm) is a pure half court guy. 
    
    I saw the Seattle game and feel the same about how sluggish L.A. is.
    Vlade is playing good of late but where the hail is Perkins? Byron gets
    hot from time to time, Magic is still Magic but something is missing. 
    
    I still think they will overtake Portlyland(tm) and win the Pacific,
    then they will romp thru the West and finally crush the Eastern Champ.
    I have forseen it!!!

Re. .10 -- No, Pete, I'm from the east originally.  No connection
to the city of L.A.  Thanks for your observations on the game.
Sounds just like the way they've played in games I've seen this
year.  No running, no intensity, very sluggish.  Any chance the
Sonics would do a Teagle for Ellis deal?  

Re. .11 -- I agree completely; Dunheavy is the problem.  He's
got a fast break team, more talent than Riley had last year, the
best push-man in the history of the game, and he wants to play
a bloody half-court offense!  Yeach.  Send Dunsleepy back to
the eastern conference where there are still a few teams playing
that primitive style of game.  Then, hire someone who will get
this team running again.  How about Jerry Tarkanian?  

Laker_Ken

    Laker_Ken,
    
    I don't know that anyone would want to pick up Ellis.  He's been
    incredibly erratic since he got back from his "injury".  But, for
    the right price, I'm sure he can be had.  Personally, I'd like to
    see Barros get Ellis' minutes.  Dale's an over-the-hill head case,
    can't dribble and can't play defense.  
    
    Anybody notice Olden Polynice's line from Sat. night's game?  He 
    had 27 points on 12-15 shooting, plus 11 or so rebbies.  WOW!
    He was suspended a while back for undisclosed reasons.  Story is
    he had some kind of blow-up about his lack of playing time.  The
    suspension made him realize that sulking about it wouldn't help, and
    he's been focusing his frustration on playing intensely, rather than
    whining.  He's had several >10 rebound games in a row, and is scoring
    in double figures fairly often.  Look for him to start in place of an
    ineffective Michael Cage if he keeps it up.  He still can't hit a
    free throw, though.  I cringe when he goes to the line.  I've figured
    out why he walks up to the shooter when his teammates are on the line,
    pats their butt and says something.  He's saying "Geez, Derrick.  How
    in the heck do you get that big ball to go in that little round metal
    thing up there??"
    
    Pete
    

But now Cage is whining about his lack of playing time....


Nothing changes about hoops in the Emerald City...


Metz

    Y'know, Metz, with all of the mediocrity to choose from on the bench,
    KC's having a tough time keeping them all happy.  I do think that some
    moves need to be made.  With Dana stuck behind Payton, Ellis, McMillan,
    and Threatt, he's not getting much of an opportunity, even though he
    plays very well when he's in there.  I think KC should stick with the
    pre-season plan and bring Nate in as a forward.  Either Dana or Sedale
    would come in at the point for Payton.
    
    As it is, there are only 3 forwards who get PT, Kemp, McKey and EJ.
    This plan would give them 4 guards and 4 forwards to rotate, instead
    of 5 and 3.  
    
    As for Cage, he's not a center, and it's just not working.  Trade Cage
    and Ellis for a real center, or package one of them and their two first
    round picks for a lottery pick.  Hell, trade the whole team except Kemp
    for the rights to Shaquille O'Neill.
    
    The Soops are in the middle of a dismal road trip.  They played well
    against San Antonio, only to get blown away in the 3rd.  They came
    back, but fell just short.  Then, they got whipped by Dallas with a 
    lackluster effort.  They squeaked by Houston, then lost to Indiana.
    Ellis has been pathetic recently.  And, McKey is slipping back to his
    old disappearing act again.  Bright spots: Polynice and Payton are
    coming around and playing very well.  
    
    Pete

Too bad you couldn't get a GM to take Ellis and McKey for a real center.
Getting a real center has to be one of the toughest aquisitions for a GM.
There's plenty of large men to bad had that masquerade as centers but an
Akeem,Ewing,Duckworth or even a West isn't going to be had with an Ellis,
Mckey package...

I say keep O.P. and give him a shot for the rest of the season. The Supes
aren't going anywhere this year and this should be the put up or shut up
season for Polynice.

I agree about Barros. Give him some more PT. Make him the first guard option
off the bench to replace Peyton. 

Get rid of KC and get a coach that knows how to develop youngsters in there.
Kemp, peyton and Barros should be the cornerstones of a rebuilding franchise
and KC isn't going to develop them. Grab Doug Moe or Frank Layden if he's 
willing and grab some prime college studs (Oliver Miller comes to mind)
and let them run.


8 days till the Celtics come to town.....


Metz

    Larry Smith??? Don't give Bob Whitless any ideas!
    
    The real bitch is that over the years, the Sonics have had a few
    adequate centers.  Jack Sikma, James Donaldson and Alton Lister come
    to mind.  Donaldson and Lister won't make anyone forget Wilt, but
    they were certainly better than having a forward playing center.
    
    I agree that Polynice should be given a shot at starting.  He'd be
    inconsistent as hell, but with the PT he may develop into a decent
    center.  He's already a rebounding animal.  He has no outside shot
    and doesn't block shots, though.  
    
    Pete

    So, Metz and Pete, youse guys ready for tomorrow night's Sonicsmania
    (tm) ;-)
    
    JD

most definately...


Sonics-mania.....Watch kemp dunk over Mchale and Parrish...


Is the bird-man going to be playing? you know...larry, the bird-man, birdareno,
birdman at the copier making copies...the birdmeister, bird-guy, larster, larry
at the coffee machine making coffee,,,,



Metz

    
> Is the bird-man going to be playing? you know...larry, the bird-man, birdareno,
> birdman at the copier making copies...the birdmeister, bird-guy, larster, larry
> at the coffee machine making coffee,,,,
    
    Ever since that episode aired, the guy in the next cubicle to mine and
    I have addressed each other like this while at the office.  The best 
    one was with Sting.  Hey, Sting-man, der schtueben Schting, 
    Stinglehoffer...
    
    glenn

    Metz and JD,
    
    Should be fun.  Once again, I'll be the dateless guy.  My wife works 
    for a CPA firm, so from Jan to April, I not only hardly ever see her,
    I have to go everywhere without her, and worst of all, I have to do
    the house cleaning.  Her criticism of my idea of what constitutes a 
    clean house has been declining recently, however.
    
    It'll be interesting to see how all the guys who are rumored to be on
    the trading block respond.  The latest I've heard: Cage to Chicago for
    Stacey King, Polynice and either Barros or McMillan to the Clippers for
    Benoit Benjamin.   Gawd, I hope these rumors aren't true.  Why in hell
    trade for a guy (Benjamin) who will be an unrestricted free agent in
    half a season?  And, trading for King would be a replay of the Brad
    Sellers fiasco.  How stupid can the Sonics' front office get?  
    
    Pete

    Hawk,
    
    Au contraire!  My wife would chortle with derisive laughter if she
    heard that!  I'm usually in big trouble for ditching her.  During the
    summer, I usually golf one day, go water skiing two days and play
    tennis one or two days after work, all without her.  Seattle summers
    are so short that I have to get all my recreation in over a 4 month
    period.  This period coincides with when my wife isn't busy at work,
    and wants to spend time together.
                                     
    In this situtation, however, Metz, JD and Metz's old neighbor from
    Beantown will all be there with their wives.  A couple of weeks ago,
    I went skiing for the weekend with 3 guys and their wives.  
    
    Of course, I still catch hell from my single buddies for being P.W.ed
    if I just call her to tell her I'll be late.  I guess I deserve it
    since I used to do the same thing when I was single.
    
    BTW, I've been married almost 4 years, no kids yet.  My two sisters
    had kids recently, one is real cute, the other looks like someone 
    inflated him with an air compressor and whacked him with the ugly
    stick.  It made me a little reluctant to have one, lest it look like
    his/her butt-ugly cousin.  But, then again, I'm so damn good-looking
    that my kid would have to be a beauty 8^).

   � the other looks like someone 
   � inflated him with an air compressor and whacked him with the ugly
   � stick.  It made me a little reluctant to have one, lest it look like
  

Sounds a little Schwarzeneggerian to me.  Will probably be Mr Olympia
seven times in a row in the world...  No girly mon flabby belly, 
und big bulging biceps.....

Franz

Pete-man,petester,peterino,pete-meister...

Your wife's meeting us at the game though, right?.
Looks like we'll only have 5 for dinner. Tom's wife works as a nurse night shift
this week so she'll be sleeping up till game time and then going to work right
after the game.

I've got a soccer game at 11:00 tonight if we the gmae doesn't go into O.T. like
the knicks game did.

I heard the rumors about trading for Benjamin also and couldn't believe them.
Why don't they just trade Kemp for Ralph Sampson while they're at it? Sonics
management has to learn not to rush and build through the draft. They've got
3 good, young players (kemp, Peyton, barros) that they should be giving major
PT to and building....building...building....but that's not KC's style.

At least the Bird-man,birdarino,birdmeister will be playing tonight.
I dunno who to root for but it'll probably be the home town Boys.


Kemp monster slam over McHale would make my night....


Metz

�Pete-man,petester,peterino,pete-meister...

For some reason this evokes a scene in my brain of the science teacher
from Wonder Years, droning on and on in his monotone voice as he
teaches a sex education class.....

    we'll give you Andrew Lang for Kemp ;-)

    >Sounds a little Schwarzeneggerian to me.  Will probably be Mr Olympia
    >seven times in a row in the world...  No girly mon flabby belly, 
    >und big bulging biceps.....

    >Franz
    
    Oh, were it that this was true, 'Saw.  Actually, the kid carries most
    of his weight in his cheeks (facial ones).  He's also a big weenie
    mama's boy.  His tiny cousin can make him cry just by touching his
    toys.   He was even scared by his birfday cake on his first birfday.
    
    
    Metz, yes my wife will be at the game, probably at the end of the first
    quarter.  Then, she'll ask if she missed any touchdowns!  Just kidding!
    She enjoys basketball, but when we go to Mariners games, she reads a
    magazine.  Of course, this doesn't mean she doesn't like baseball.  A
    good argument can be made that people who like the Mariners DON'T like
    baseball.
    
    Pete

�    >Sounds a little Schwarzeneggerian to me.  Will probably be Mr Olympia
�    >seven times in a row in the world...  No girly mon flabby belly, 
�    >und big bulging biceps.....
�
�    >Franz
�    
�    Oh, were it that this was true, 'Saw.  Actually, the kid carries most
�    of his weight in his cheeks (facial ones).  He's also a big weenie
�    mama's boy.  His tiny cousin can make him cry just by touching his
�    toys.   He was even scared by his birfday cake on his first birfday.


Wow.  The kid doesn't even have a plate stackable butt. 8^(

Sounds like a candidate to go to the Children's Scorpion Petting Zoo....


'Saw

    Hey, Metzie, el Metzo, the big Metzerino, Metz-dude, the Big Metz...
    
    Why was I waiting for Dick Vitale to come out during that skit with
    some Windex and a nice plate of Mrs. Valvano's pasta?  He's the first
    one I thought of during that skit.  Definitely Rolls Royce material.
    He should have shot some paper in the trash can for the trey....
    
    
    When the copy machine comes back will he say "AWESOME, Baby!!!"?
    
    Soccer at 11:00?  Geez, that's worse than here....

�    Hey, Metzie, el Metzo, the big Metzerino, Metz-dude, the Big Metz...
                                    ^^^^^^^^^

Metz discovers a new subatomic particle.....News at 11.....

�   Metz discovers a new subatomic particle.....News at 11.....

               HEY! Was that a new subatomic particle...
                  or were you just happy to see her?

Mike JN

    JD, Metz and I attended the Celtics-Sonics game last night.  Great
    game!  Celts won by 3.
    
    The Supes led 88-80 at the end of the third quarter.  Some incredible
    personnel moves by KC doomed the Sonics in the third.  Sedale Threatt
    was on fire in the 3rd, hitting everything he threw up.  But, did he
    play in the 4th?  Of course not!  Eddie Johnson played great in the
    first half, hitting for 18 points.  But, in the 3rd, he cooled off.
    In fact, he couldn't hit anything.  Neither could Ellis.  Guess which
    two players played almost the entire 4th quarter?  Right again!
    
    The Sonics still could have won with decent free throw shooting down
    the stretch.  Oh, well.  Maybe someday I'll see the Sonics beat a 
    good team.
    
    Pete

Must have been a typo (sorry, JD - printo) in my paper this morning.  It had
Dale Ellis for 13 assists.  That would be 30% over his previous career high. 
It also had Payton for none.  Could they have mixed the two up?  Ellis was
listed as only taking 9 shots, something which is also very unusual, although
the Payton line was only 5-12.

j.

    Jeff,
    
    If Dale had 13 assists, I'm clean-shaven ;-) 
    
    As the Crouch-meister put it - typical Supes game.  Big lead in the
    firsted half, crowd whipped to frenzy by the Sonics Gals (20 pounds of
    cellulite and not an ounce of rhythm), KC goes into the tank, Supes
    blow lead, stage frantic comeback, and fall short.  They missed foul
    shots down the stretch, and also fouled Larry Bird at the end.  Good
    move.  
    
    Bested play of game was Shawn Kemps dunk in 4th quarter over Parrish
    and company.  Yowza.  Best part of game was watching the clangster from
    Boston shoot in one of the promos.  Guy kept walking away after
    shooting, like he had a swish, only to realize he chucked up a brick or
    an air ball.
    
    I did have someone spill beer on my back.  Two funny frat types, who
    had a stream of conversation that was really funny - ran the gamut from
    Micheal Cages "Hairstyles through the Ages", to KC's suit selection, to
    the thighs of the Sonics gals, with a little rendition of "Super Freak"
    throw in.  Memorable.
    
    JD

    Jeff,
    
    They reversed Payton's and Ellis' entire lines.  Payton had a career
    high 13 assists.  The only thing Dale had 13 of was the number of
    thousands of people in the Coliseum who thought he should be traded
    for a 3rd round draft pick.
    
    Pete

�    If Dale had 13 assists, I'm clean-shaven ;-) 

You growin' somethin' on your face that we should know about?

    
�    As the Crouch-meister put it - 

Better be careful NOT to make a printo on that little moniquer....

    
�    I did have someone spill beer on my back.  Two funny frat types, who
�    had a stream of conversation that was really funny - ran the gamut from
�    Micheal Cages "Hairstyles through the Ages", to KC's suit selection, to
�    the thighs of the Sonics gals, with a little rendition of "Super Freak"
�    throw in.  Memorable.
    
Those are the best kind of folks to have sit behind you sometimes.

I remember a concert I went to when I visited my brother at college one
time.  The tix were free and it was in the college auditorium.  Some
hick from the hills someplace named Speedy, and he played the dobro.

Well, the concert sipped sincerely, except for the two guys behind us.
They carried on this running conversation that had them running away
to become Nazerenes, and various other funny topics.  Every once in a
while, when Speedy, backed up by the Bull Hooey Kickers Five Hand Band,
would actually play something that resembled a blues lick, they'd yell
out as if they were at a Gospel Music concert or something.  too funny.

Finally, by the end of the night we were all yelling "Free Bird, Free Bird".

As you've said JD...Memorable....

'Saw

Good game but Poor officiating. One of the worst officiated games I've ever 
seen.

Pete...Does today's paper mention why Kemp sat out most of the game and then
came back to play the 3rd quarter?

The more I watch this team the more convinced I am that they are among the
top 10 teams in the league as far as talent. However they are at the bottom
of the league in coaching. Doug Moe would have this team 5 games over .500 right
now instead of 2 games under.

Barros comes in for 5 minutes sinks a couple, has no turnovers and gets yanked
to sit on the bench for ht rest of the game. Eddie Johnson lights up the nets in
the first half then starts to miss and is obviously extremely tired and KC keeps
him in the game in the 4th. Sedale Threatt can't miss and gets yanked for the
stretch run, Ellis clanged from all over and stays in in the 4th quarter.

O.P. played some good defense on Parrish. Kemp will be the one of the top NBA 
stars in 2 years. 

Sir Larry of Bird looks and plays OLD. They don't isolate him down low any more
because he can't dribble and most of his shots come from 3pt range or 2-3 feet
closer because he can't work himself free on the inside and he misses a large
amount of those shots that he gets. He still does the little things well like 
break the Sonics full court press and make the nice inside pass. It's sad to 
see a great player like he was obviously on the rapid downside of his career.

The Sonic gals were impressive as usual. It's definately the emotion that they
display and generate from the crowd. My wife was particularly impressed with 
them. Plus the addition of the Frito,Cheeto and Dorito scoreboard race was 
something to come back to the Center for.

Celtics have an amazing almost all-white bench. McHale('s Navy) sprained his 
ankle in the 4th or the Celtics would have won by more. Hope it's not serious.

Metz

�        -< How come JD is always involved in these spill altercations? >-

We're gonna have to start calling him the Exxon-Valdez!!!!

�Celtics have an amazing almost all-white bench. 

Funny, I thought they used green folding chairs these days  [lotsa 8^)]

'Saw

    One thing that was evident, the Celtics better win this year, or forget
    it folks.  This team is old, slow, and painfully decrepit. Larry Bird
    is finished.  Sorry folks.  I've railed on him in the past, but its a
    sorry sight seeing him lug himself up and down the court.  The Supes
    were daring him to shoot.  He's starting to remind me of Willie Mays
    around 1972 or so.   Larry isn't even one of the top 10 players in the
    league anymore.  And IMO, he's maybe the 4th or 5th best on the
    Celtics.  Best move for the Celts would be for Lawwy and Wobert to
    wetire, KEV-in to get traded for a pick or so, and let this completely
    be Reggie's team.  
    
    
    Metz did forget to mention the inspiring play of Olden Polynice ;-)
    
    Oh, and don't ferget them Nestle Cruch Sonics Gals!!!
    
    JD

>Good game but Poor officiating. One of the worst officiated games I've ever 
>seen.
    
    I agree.  Looked like the Celts owned the refs down the stretch for
    their comeback and putaway.  But what else is new.  Two consecutive
    plays stick out with about 3 minutes to go with the Celtics needing to
    score.  Lewis drove by his man (EJ) and took off down the lane. 
    McMillan gave great help and stuffed Lewis with all ball both times (on
    the replay.  Lewis did the spread-the-arms-like-you-been-shot thing,
    and gave the McHale Hurricane Howl, and got the bogus call.  Both times
    on consecutive possessions.
    
>Pete...Does today's paper mention why Kemp sat out most of the game and then
>came back to play the 3rd quarter?
    
    They said on ESPN that they thought he broke his forearm.  He went to
    the hospital for X-rays, which obviously were negative.
    
    Dan

 >   One thing that was evident, the Celtics better win this year, or forget
 >   it folks.  This team is old, slow, and painfully decrepit. Larry Bird
 >   is finished.  Sorry folks.  I've railed on him in the past, but its a
 >   sorry sight seeing him lug himself up and down the court.  The Supes
 >   were daring him to shoot.  He's starting to remind me of Willie Mays
 >   around 1972 or so.   Larry isn't even one of the top 10 players in the
 >   league anymore.  And IMO, he's maybe the 4th or 5th best on the
 >   Celtics.  Best move for the Celts would be for Lawwy and Wobert to
 >   wetire, KEV-in to get traded for a pick or so, and let this completely
 >   be Reggie's team.  
    
  Remember that Bird's been out about a month which probably accounts for him
  looking older than usual.  He may not be MVP material anymore, but he's
  a lot better than people are giving him credit for.  Plus he's more 
  important to the Celtics than people give him credit for.  I hope people
  continue to underestimate the Celtics and Bird.  They need any edge they
  can get.   

		Bob 

 Thanks Dan for that OBJECTIVE view of last nights game..  ;^)

 hahahahahaaa

 mike

    Last night you saw a Larry Bird who is still trying to get his legs
    back and his timing after being on out a long time. I agree he did not look
    as sharp as he had been during the first half of the season. He makes the 
    Celtics running game work!! And he may not be in the top ten but he was 
    almost averaging a triple double, 19.2 points, 8.7 rebounds and 7.7 assist!!
    
    Don't judge on one game........Gamble did not look so hot either and he
    has been playing super!
    
    BTW: I thought Kemp looked great last night, he can only get better
    

    RE Bird,
    
    My observations are based on the lasted two seasons, but last night,
    IMO is just a fore runner of what'll you'll see in the future.  What
    was his line last night?  He certainly clanged quite a few.
    
    Does Robert Parrish ever leave the zone?  The illegal defense calls
    against the Sonics killed them.  The one technical was the difference
    down the stretch.
    
    "Oscar" Gamble was horrible.  
    
    JD

    Some tidbits from lasted night.  Metz not only plays soccer, but he
    plays at 11:00 at night in an unheated warehouse.  He mentioned
    something about clam necks, but I didn't catch it all.  Also, while
    everyone was ordering Nortwest Beers, he ordered a Corona.  Draw your
    own conclusions.  ;-))
    
    I do know I won't be having to talk the wife into going to games
    anymore.  She found the NBA much less than FANtastic.  In fack (TM),
    she almost fell asleep during the 3rd quarter.  She was amazed at the
    Sonics gals - saying they looked 'dumpy' - except for one, that she
    said at least "has a cute figure and shows some pep".
    
    The stupid crowd did get the wave going in the 4th quarter. 
    Arrgggghhh.  These morons really ENJOY the wave.  Unreal.
    
    JD

    re .49, last paragraph:
    
    Didn't the wave originate in Seattle (at Seahawks games)?
    
    
    py

It originated at U of Washington during a football game. JD knew all about it.
At least I don't drive one of them Yuppy 4WD vehicles like JD :-)

I based my Bird observations over last season and this one. Ever since he
had that mano eh mano basket for basket duel with Dominique he hasn't been
the same. First he hurt his heels, then last years disappointing season and
now this years back injury...As I said he still does the little things but
he's not top gun on the C's any more. Reggie had 30 after a quiet 1st half.
It's his team now....

And I meant the officiating was awful both ways. The Sonics weren't victimised
by the officiating. It was a horribly called game both ways. Mucho travelling,
mucho offensive charges not called, lots of bashing under the basket and 1
horrible call where peyton was pushed out of bounds and the ref gave the ball
to the C's. But we know Dan only sees the game his way.....

My wife had a good time but it wouldn't be hard to cinvince her to stay home
for the next one and make it a guys only thing....then we can spill beer on the
people in front of us.

BTW - We learned from Jd's wife that the reason he didn't make it out to see
       the super bowl with us was because he was dressed head to toe in Giants
	garb and wouldn't leave his house because he didn't want to be seen
	kneeling in prayer as Norwood attempted the final field goal :-)

The Center was probably 1/4 filled with Celtic fans last night.
Seattle a city happy with sports mediocrity......


Metz

    JD, Metz, et.al.:  Weren't people saying the same thing about Bernard
    King?
    
    I think it's a little early to write off a guy who missed a whole year
    in the NBA with foot surgery, then missed a month this season with a
    back problem.

     >>-< JD has what he calls a beard on his face...my 5 o'clock shadow i >-
    
    Metz,  I'm kind of surprised you get a 5:00 shadow, getting up and
    shaving at 9:30 AM or so 8^).  Actually, I believe it.  You're kind
    of a swarthy meditteranean type.  You probably have to shave your
    fingernails.  Maybe Betsy is getting tired of all that hair.  I thought
    I caught her looking longingly at Sedale Threatt a couple of times
    during the game!
    
    Re: Larry Bird.  With all of his injuries and back problems, it's no
    suprise he's slowing down.  It was painful to watch him.  He looked
    like he belonged in the old-timers game.  If he recovers fully, I'm
    sure he'll be more like his old self.  But for now, it's not pleasant
    to watch him.  It's kind of like watching Ali at the end of his career.
    
    Pete  
      

>   Metz,  I'm kind of surprised you get a 5:00 shadow, getting up and
>    shaving at 9:30 AM or so 8^).  Actually, I believe it.  You're kind
>    of a swarthy meditteranean type.  You probably have to shave your
>    fingernails.  Maybe Betsy is getting tired of all that hair.  I thought
>    I caught her looking longingly at Sedale Threatt a couple of times
>    during the game!


   meditteranean my butt :-) 1/4 Irish, 1/4 german and 1/2 french canadian 
decent here pal.

and I get up well before 9:30....it's just it takes me sooooo long to feed the
cats in the morning you never see me here till then....yeah..that's the ticket.


oh yeah..you're wife called up our house this morning for O.P's number...I think
she and my wife are double dating the Sonics dynamic duo tonight....

:-)


Metz

I just had to share a quote from todays paper...

There is a feature article on Dale Ellis and his recent scoring woes...


Here is a quote from Eddie Johnson

"The main thing I've found out about Dale is he's a very unselfish player. He
doesn't force things. If he doesn't have the shot he doesn't take it. That's a
good example he sets for the team."


Obviously Eddie hasn't been with the team too long....        :-)


I think Eddie is on SPORTShrooms (tm)


Metz

 Heu Supes' fan did ya catch the old man last night? Wish I could age so
 gracefully.....

 mike

              <<< Note 71.56 by CHIEFF::CHILDS "IS Saw, Evan?" >>>
                                                        ^^^^^

Who's Evan?

 He's the guy in one of the Bud Dry commercials, who the women ask why
 can't you be more like Evan. cause Evan, cooks, cleans, like dried
 flowers, art exhibits, etc....

 ;^)

mike

Evan sounds like he's got a little problem.  Has anyone thought to
check his underwear drawer to see if he has cute little silk panties
in there, and perhaps a bra or two?  

Does Evan wear Dockers?

Just what does Evan do with these dried flowers?

Enquiring.....etc....

'saw

    Well, Dale Ellis' tenure as the resident Sonics' malcontent is over.
    Under the circumstances, I think the Soops were very fortunate to
    get Ricky Pierce for him.  I thought Dale's market value would be much
    lower, but maybe Witless finally found someone as incompetent as
    himself at Milwaukee.
    
    Ellis' jump shot is gone.  He still can't play defense or handle the
    ball.  He's a very good post-up guard and rebounder for his position,
    but without his trademark jumper, he's not worth an all-star in a
    trade.  
    
    The only downside is that this deal didn't solve the Sonics problem
    of an overload of guards.  For that reason, look for this to not be
    the last deal the Sonics make.  Rumors are flying in Seattle about
    another deal involving Cage and Pierce or EJ.  They would be sent
    to Chicago for Stacey King and Cliff Levingston.  This would prove
    once again that Witless is a moron who made one good trade.  Stacey
    King????  Bob, buddy.  Does the name Brad Sellers mean anything to
    you?
    
    The Sonics need a center badly.  Not another power forward.  I think
    they should wait until the off-season and package one of their first
    rounders with Cage and a guard to try to move up in the draft and get
    a center.  Shaquille is probably too much to hope for, but maybe they
    could get Motumbo.
    
    Pete
    

Dale is gone...Hip Hip Hooray...

I was very pleased that they got Pierce for him. I can't figure out why the 
Bucks would trade the best 6th man in the league for a malcontent streak shooter.

On the bad side KC is still here which means I see Barros getting frozen out of
PT with the addition of Pierce even though Pierce is a shooting guard. With 
Peyton, Threatt and Pierce I don't see Dana getting a lot of time. He did play
a lot Saturday night in the loss vs. the Hawks and looked decent.

With the latest Ewing rumors going around maybe they can package Cage and 
somebody witha draft pick for Ewing. I can't see how NY would ever trade him 
though. I still can't believe that the team that played the Pistons yesterday
is under .500

Good game vs. the Hawks except the outcome. Spud Webb killed them in the first 
half and then after climbing back to be within 4 'Nique caught fire and killed
them down the stretch.

Had a good discussion at a party about the Merits of KC. I stated my opinion that
he isn't a good coach for a rebuilding team and caught it from all sides that
thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. I left the discussion with
a wait and see opinion about what happens to this team in the next 2 years.

They have some great talent (except for being virtually centerless) but I can't
see KC putting it all together.


Metz
 

    Best line from the Seattle times:  The Sonics now have 3 sixth men:
    Eddie Johnson, Rickey Pierce, and Sedele Threatt....
    
    Shoooot, Rickey,m Shoooot 
    
    Hmm, has a nice ring to it..
    
    JD

    Metz,
    
    So you got a first-hand dose of Seattle know-nothing moronic sports
    fans, huh?  I'm sure you've heard the call-in radio shows.  If some
    of the comments you hear there don't convince you of the sub-freezing
    level sports IQ in this town, maybe your experience at the party will.
    
    I remember last year when someone called in and (seriously) suggested
    that the Seahawks' problems would be solved if they'd just re-sign
    Jim Zorn.  What a dork!
    
    Anyway, anybody with any knowledge of B-ball can see KC's shortcomings
    as coach.  After Bernie's "coach 'em to death" philosophy, I can see
    why some local fans think KC's great.  But, all you have to do is look
    at his inexplicable benching of guys who are shooting great to wonder
    if KC's even watching the game.  I think this team can win despite
    KC's sometimes baffling substitutions if they get a center.  
    
    Get used to the atmosphere here, Metz.  Nobody criticizes the local
    teams.  Did you notice during the Atlanta game, the announcers barely
    even mentioned the Ellis trade, which had just occured?  That was real
    strange.  
    
    Pete

I agree with the previous comments on the Ellis/Pierce trade. Sonics got good
value in the deal, but still have a big gap to fill in the middle. 

I guess Olden Polynice (physically the only true center on the team) is not the
future?

Surely there's a youngish, second-rank center wasting on the pine somewhere 
in the league, or playing for a team that needs better shooting guard play.
I'd settle for a journeyman like James Donaldson. Heck, I'd even take a chance
on Benoit at this stage. But if he's old, he better bring some offense ...

Brian

    Brian,
    
    It's about time you showed up in here!  Where ya been?
    
    Last night's game was aggravating to no end.  The Soops missed 6 of 10
    free throws down the stretch, gave away an almost-uncontested layup to
    Dumars with 2 seconds to go, then McKey threw up a 10 foot air ball at
    the buzzer that would have tied the game.  They certainly played well
    enough to win, but found a way to lose, as has been their habit.
    
    McKey had a tough night.  He shoots 85% from the line, but missed both
    shots with a couple of minutes left.  EJ had a great game.  So did
    Payton.  Dumars and Rodman had good games for Detroit.
    
    Rodman pulled one of the most dickheaded moves I've ever seen, though.
    He went after a loose ball, and crashed into the Sonics' bench.  Fat,
    65 year old trainer Frank Furtado helped him up, and Rodman thanked him
    by trying to go after him.  KC had to restrain Rodman.  I hope he would
    have been proud of himself if he'd punched poor Frank.  
    
    Pete

>    It's about time you showed up in here!  Where ya been?
 
Trying to become a NJ Nets fan ... ;-)

Seriously, their starting five is better than the Supes (bench is getting
better recently). Unfortunately, they have a long tradition of losing and just
about zero homecourt advantage due to lack of fan support.

I'm still a Sonics fan, but I realized the other day that this is a TOTALLY
different team from the one that hooked me during the 86-87 season. 

Remember "The Big Three"? 
Remember veterans like Mo Lucas & Clemon Johnson?

The only thing that stays the same is Bob Whitsitt (and Nate McMillan) ...

Brian

BUCKS TRADE KEMP/JOHNSON/PAYTON TO KNICKS
-----------------------------------------

The Seattle SuperSonics today acquired forward/center
Bullwinkle Moose from the Washington Bullets in exchange for
guard Eddie Johnson and forward/center Shawn Kemp.  When
informed by coach KC Jones that Bullwinkle is only a cartoon 
character, General Manager Bob Whitless hastily added point 
guard Gary Payton to the deal.  Persistent, KC tried a 
different tack.  "But he's a free agent, Bob", said KC.
To which the general manager promptly added forward Derrick
McKey to the deal "if we can get the squirrel in return".
When KC pointed out that Rocky is probably only 7-8 inches
tall, Bob made it Dana Barros instead, explaining that he
didn't realize that Rocky was a guard.

The trade puts to end a rumored three-way trade between the
Bucks, Clippers and New York Knicks involving Patrick Ewing.

HA - Ha ...good one Jeff....


Sonics played well enough to lose again last night. The remote control was 
getting a workout trying to cover both the Celtics-Suns game on TBS and the
Sonics-Sixers game on Prime Sports Northwest....

Sonics had a 3pt lead with 30 seconds left only to allow a 3 pt shot and
then blew the chance to win it with the last shot. I knew they were doomed
in OT because  Kemp had fouled out with 1:30 or so left in the game.

Pierce looked good and McKey played well. O.P. played some good defense but
once again they blew it in the end. Sonics are now 23-27 and trade rumors
are brewing with several clubs trying to get a guard for the stretch run.
Sonics are overloaded at guard with McMillen, Threatt, Peyton, Pierce, Barros.

Of course KC was happy just to be close.....ugh,


Metz

    Mertz,
    
    That was a vintage Sonics game, wasn't it.  Don't you just love those
    announcers!!!  Especially like there fumbling with Ron Anderson and
    3-point shooting.  After Anderson hit the 3-pointer at the end of
    regulation, they were saying how he was a pretty darn good 3-point
    shooter.  Then they said, whoops, maybe he isn't that good - he was
    shooting 11% from 3-point range before making the shot.  I was rolling.
    
    Typical Sonics game.  Rickey Pierce looked damn good, though.
    
    JD
    
    PS:  Jeff, I know you're pulling our leg - the rumour out here is that
    Whitstats wanted Mr. Peabody instead of Rocky.
    
    JD

    Last night's game was a classic, alright.  It had it all - a missed
    layin by O.P. to tie it, two missed free throws by Sedale (not to 
    mention his two missed layins in the 4th quarter), a missed put-back
    by Pierce that would have won it in regulation, and I can't remember
    the rest.  I was too busy weeping.  Gawd, they just keep on booting 
    these games they have won.  Let me see if I can remember all the games
    they had in the bag, only to work like mad to choke them away: New York
    at home, Portland twice,  Atlanta, Detroit and Philly on the road,
    Boston at home.  I'm sure I'm missing others.  I've never seen such
    a bunch of choke artists in my life.  AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
    
    On another note, I can't believe the negative press Payton is getting
    lately.  The Seattle Times gave him a "D" at mid-season.  The fans are
    on him.  Give the guy a break!  I think he's playing pretty well.  He
    needs to be a bit more aggressive, but he's a rookie, fer crissakes.
    His jumper has been coming around lately, and he has some nice moves
    close to the hoop.  To me, he hasn't been a real pleasant surprise, but
    he hasn't been a flop either.  He's doing what I expect from a rookie
    point guard on a mediocre team.  There's only one Magic, folks.  Relax.
    Payton will become a very good point guard.  All he needs is a little
    better jumper, and to be a bit more aggressive, but that will come.
    
    Disgustedly,
    Pete

RE. < Note 71.66 by WYNTON::BMCWILLIAMS "Improvise if you have to ..." >

>I guess Olden Polynice (physically the only true center on the team) is not the
>future?

>Heck, I'd even take a chance on Benoit at this stage. 

;-)

    /Brian,
    
    Does this mean you're now as smart as Bob Whitsitt?? 8^).
    
    I don't know about this trade.  Benoit is a free agent at the end of
    the season.  What possible reason is there to believe he will sign with
    the Sonics?  Last I heard, most players want to win.  Good centers are
    a rare commodity, and the bidding for Benoit will be high.  The only 
    hope the Soops have is that salary cap restrictions will give them the
    advantage they need.  
    
    As for the price they paid, I think it was about right.  Olden showed
    no signs of becoming more than a journeyman center, and the two first 
    rounders were probably late-rounders.  They were the Phoenix picks from
    the X-man deal.  The Sonics sure don't need more young players.  Now,
    they need a backup center, though.  I don't see Cage doing that for 
    long.  
    
    The Sonic deals this year boiled down to Benjamin, Pierce and EJ in
    exchange for Ellis, X and Polynice.  Not bad *IF* they sign Benjamin.
    I hope Ackerley told Whitsitt he was betting his job on signing him.
    If they don't, the price was way too high to get a center for 30 games.
    
    Pete

    Benoit....hmmmmmm
    
    I keep getting this scenario in my haid - actually a couple of
    scenarios.
    
    One is that the SOnics deal Benoit TODAY to another team - say the LA
    Lakers, for (knowing the Sonics) AC Green and Divac (and maybe a draft
    pick) or, they don't sign Ben and they blow it big time.
    
    However, a lineup of Benoit, McKey, Kemp, Payton and Pierce, with
    Sedele, Cage and EJ off the bench reallly isn't that bad.
    
    JD

    	I doubt the Lakers could trade enough bodies to get Benoit in
    under the salary cap.

I'm still undecided about this trade...


On the plus side they now have a legitimate center. Benjamin has good shot
blocking ability and rebound stats. 15 PPG is pretty good from a center in
a league full of Kites and Bols.

On the minus side...

Unrestricted free agent...Can the Sonics sign him? Did they even talk to him 
before they made the trade?

Didn't solve the guard problem...they've still got 5 good guards on this team
without enough playing time.

Low Post game...I haven't seen enough a Benjamin to know if he has any post
up moves but the Sonics need somebody that they can go to down low and isolate
1-1 matchups with. Kemp can't be the man every time down the floor.

The price...If the Sonics don't sign him after this season then the price was
far too high. They would have shot themselves in the foot because they wouldn't
have anybody to play center for the forseable future. Too bad they couldn't
have packaged McMillen and Cage together instead of O.P.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude on this one. If they go .500 down the
stretch with a team that is totally different than the  one they started the
season with then the whole season and all the trades went for naught. I still 
think KC is a large part of the problem....


Metz

Sonics are in an okay position vis Benoit this season: he will have to play his
ass off and average close to 20 ppg if he wants to really test the free agent
waters this summer. Now that the Sonics have freed up Xman and Ellis' salary
space, there must be a lot of room for Benoit's $$$ needs. He'll definitely
take them to the cleaners!

With horses like Kemp, Cage, and Benoit, I think a team can stand to be a
little guard-heavy. After all, EJ can play small forward, as can Nate. (Don't
know about Pierce.) Sedale might be the one on the hot seat, but nobody plays D
like that SOB (surely not EJ!). 

This IS a very talented nucleus, with both role players and scorers off the
bench. Good mix of youth and experience.  Main thing now is to try to get some
kind of chemistry established fast, with all these new faces. Hold on to that
playoff spot for dear life, and hope things gel by April. 

I say Sonics over Bulls in six; parade in June. ;-)

    I believe seattle beat NY last night (not positive only caught a glimps
    of the scores scolling of the old tube) can anyone put up the #s from
    last nights game, seattle is holding the #8 spot right now, this trade
    should put them into the playoffs and hopefully in a spot higher than 8
    
    						Id be happy with a seattle
    						bulls finals, but bulls in
    						4 wouldnt be that exciting.
    
    							M_Air_Brooks

      I didn't know whether or not to put this in the NBA or this
      topic.
    
      I'm a Bucks fan and I haven't the faintest idea why they made
      the trade they made.  Does anyone have a clue why they did so?
    
      I am totally clueless unless it was just a totally ridiculous
      trade.  Does anyone know WHY they made the trade they made?
    
                                             Tony

    Tony,
    
    I think that the Bucks were tired of hearing Ricky Pierce's whining
    about his contract.  He wanted an extention for big money, and the
    Bucks didn't want to oblige.  So, they traded for a guy who they
    figured has similar skills.  I think they'll be very unpleasantly
    surprised when they find out Ellis is a has-been.  I think this was
    a front office boner, pure and simple.  It's about time the Sonics
    got one in their favor, since they've been giving up good players for
    garbage for years.  
    
    BTW, Pierce was the Sonics' leading scorer with 26 in the win over
    the Knicks last night.  
    
    Pete

    Maybe the bad press Payton has been getting helped.  Saturday night,
    I attended the Phoenix game.  The Sonics lost (combo of McKey being
    out, Hornacek never missing and a great disparity in fouls did them
    in), but Payton had a phenomenal game.  He had a triple double with
    18 points, 12 assists and 10 rebounds.  He also had several steals.
    
    Then, he followed it up with 16 assists last night in the win over
    Utah.  He's been much more aggressive lately.  Against Phoenix, he
    repeatedly pushed it all the way upcourt, and took it in for a layin
    if KJ didn't stop him.  
    
    Pete

    The following is the entire text of a memo from the NBA office to
    the league's PR directors, explaining the Sonics/Clippers trade.
    
    "Because deals involving the Seattle Supersonics are always highly
    complex and impossible to understand, here is a detailed explanation
    of how the draft picks that were involved in the Polynice/Benjamin
    trade work.
    
    In 1991, Seattle has its own pick and Phoenix's pick.  The Sonics will
    keep the better of those two picks and send the other to the Clippers.
    
    In 1993, Seattle has its own pick and either Phoenix's or
    Philadelphia's pick (via Phoenix).  Seattle will keep the better of
    those two picks and send the other to the Clippers, UNLESS ....
    
    .... unless Phildadelphia's pick is a lottery pick.  In that case, 
    Seattle will simply have its own pick in 1993, and then in 1994 will 
    keep the better of its own pick, and either Phoenix's or
    Philadelphia's pick, and send the other one to the Clippers."
    
    NAZZ

    Great news on the Benoit deal.  It sounds like the Sonics are going to
    sign him soon.  They have reportedly agreed on terms, and Benoit was
    on the news saying that Sonics fans don't have to worry that he is 
    going somewhere else.
    
    He's been playing very well so far.  He makes Olden look like a high-
    schooler.  The Sonics should quit dealing for about 5 years now and let
    this team gel.  They have a good chance to become a very good team now.
    They have one of the deepest benches in the game, with Cage, EJ,
    Pierce, McMillan and Barros.  If the Sonics can gain a couple of games
    in the standings, surpass Golden State and thus avoid Portland in the
    first round of the playoffs, they could go a ways.  They'd play Utah,
    who they usually match up well against. 
    
    Pete

    Pete,
    
    The Sonics look real good right now.  I don't think anyone would want
    to play them in the playoffs.  Benoit frees up Kemp - Shawn no longer
    has to guard guys like Akeem - and that will make Shawn better.  Also
    since Ben is a shot-blocker, it allows Peyton to make more gambles on
    defense.
    
    Cage is adjusting to backup status - he pulled down 10 boards the other
    night.
    
    But where will they find P.T. for Scott Meents??
    
    JD

    We will find out tonight how seattle plays together, they are on a 4
    game win streak and I think they just hit .500 for the first time this
    season.  Tonight they play the team they need to catch the Golden State
    Warriors, there 2 games behind golden state so this is a big one for
    them.  They are however 7 games ahead of dallas who is there only
    threat for that last playoff position.  As far as Utah keeping the top
    of the Midwest I think San An will wake up and recover that top spot
    before too long....So it would more than likely be seattle VS San An
    in the 1st round....
    								MAB

I'm pretty sure that they are 1 game under .500 right now. They've been at this
plateau several times during the season and have yet to make the leap to .500

The more I watch the more I'm convinced that the EJ for X trade was the one
that really got the ball rolling for this team. EJ has been the leading scorer
for the team in several of the past few games. I really hope that he doesn't
pull his usual disappearing act during the playoffs.

I certanly hope they ink big ben within the next few days. this team could 
really pull it together for the stretch run then. I only hope that KC doesn't 
kill them.

JD and Pete...you guys should read an editorial in the paper yesterday accusing
the Sonics of dismantling a team that was going to be the NBA's elite and 
drafting "scrubs" like McKey and Barros while "players" like Reggie Lewis were
drafted after them. People seem to forget that Lewis was a real project coming 
out of Northeastern and nobody was sure that he would adjust to the NBA. He was
a gangly kid with great scoring ability who really didn't play against the big
boys in college. I remember the hubub that drafting Lewis caused. Most NE sports
fans were sure that it was a move to keep fans coming by drafting the local boy.

The editorialist also had nasty things to say about Cage,McMillen while praising
Tommy-gun and X and Ellis. Methinks this guy couldn't see that what had developed
was a team of shooters without enough balls to go around. I like the makeup of 
the current Sonics much better....


Kemp should light the world on fire now......


John

    Tne National has them listed as 28 and 28 on a 4 game winning streak
    and they play GS tonight....So .500 has been reached..Now can they
    stay there.
    								MaB

    Metz,  "Air" is right.  The Soops gained the mantle of Monarchs of
    Mediocrity on Sat. night when they beat Sacramento.  
    
    Their schedule the rest of the way is pretty strange.  All their tough
    games are bunched up in late March and late April.  In one stretch,
    they play Utah, LA Lakers, Phoenix, Lakers, Portland (back-to-back,
    home and away).  Then, they play Minn, Dallas, Sac, Clippers, Denver
    (back to back), Clippers, San Antonio and Orlando.  If they can get
    through that first group with a couple of wins, they could finish the
    season well over .500.  
    
    They have been playing well with McKey out.  Hmmmm?
    
    Metz, on the editorial deal, get used to it.  I remember a few years
    ago.  Steve Kelley from the Seattle Times spent all season getting all
    over Chambers for being a selfish, no defense, no rebounding SLOF. 
    Then, they lost him to free agency.  Kelley spent the next year saying
    how the Sonics problems were caused by losing Chambers.
    
    Funny thing was that the Sonics reprinted a bunch of his contradictory
    columns in a promo brochure the next year.  They highlighted blatantly
    incompatible statements.  It was damn funny, and Kelley got what he
    deserved.  But, he didn't see it as being very funny and wrote a whiny
    column, which as along the lines of "doesn't the Sonics staff have any-
    thing better to do than dig up this junk?"  
    
    Seems like the writers like to cover their bases, but don't want to be
    called on their assertions when they are wrong.
    
    Pete  

    Anybody know if McKey played last night, or exactly what his status is
    (besides the always-helpful "questionable")?
    
    thx,
    -b

    -b,
    
    McKey didn't play.  Every game, they say he'll be back, so who knows?
    I'm pretty sure he'll be back in the next couple of games.
    
    The Sonics and Warriors played one of the most hideous games I've ever
    seen last night.  The Sonics won, winning only their second game on the
    road against a team above .500.  It was quite the turnover-fest.  There
    were about 25 on each side.  
    
    The Soops have won 5 straight.  They should win their next two, also:
    tonight at home vs. Cleveland and Thurs. at Minnesota.
    
    Pete
    

That was one Ugly game....

Bodies flying all over the place, people getting smashed with no fouls and then
having touchy feely fouls called 15 seconds later. Bricks and airballs galore.
Officials that lost total control of the game and then make an incredible 
offensive charging call on Mullin in the closing seconds when McMillian slides
in front of him like a hockey goalie.

They don't get much uglier than that...


Metz

    Who one the 2 late games last night
    	Cleveland at Seattle
    	Golden ST At Sacramento
    								MaB

Benoit Benjamin's agent -- Don "Lightsocket" King -- was ranting on CNN Sports
last night about how Ben will be looking for "$20 million over 5 years. He'll
be making about $3.5 million per year."

The announcer had some fun with King's math, but the Sonics are not going to
have fun paying that kind of jack ...

Loved the brief film I saw of the Sonics v. Golden State game: Benjamin
power-moves THROUGH ex-Sonic Alton Lister and thunder jams the ball, while
Lister ends up on his kiester shaking his head ...

Brian

    Sonics lost in OT last night to Cleveland.  Ahh, a return to the Sonics
    of old.  Had the ball with the score tied and 22 seconds left in OT.
    EJ tosses the ball out of bounds with 5 seconds left.  Morton for
    Cleveland tosses a prayer at the hoop.  It goes in.  Sonics lose at
    home to a piece of crap team.
    
    Brian,  you're a little late getting the news back there.  Benoit
    signed.  I think he did get almost 4 mill a year.  He signed for 5
    years.  Look for a renegotiation in two when the Scott Meentses of
    the world are making 4 million.
    
    Pierce also signed.  He's with the team for 3 more years.
    
    Pete

    Could someone post Benoit's numbers since he became a Sonic ?
    
    Thanks.

Big Ben and Pierce signing were the best thing about last night. I only saw the
high (low) lights on the news but they had 2 chances to salt this thing away
and blew it.

How they could let someone drive coast to coast with only 7 seconds left on the
clock astounded me.

The march (forward and backward) toward a .500 season continues.....

Has Barros logged any PT since Pierce joined the club?


Metz

So what's this I hear about ex-Sonic Dale Ellis getting fined, along with
Bullet's Darrel Walker, for fighting during a recent game?

And in at least two other Bucks games I've seen boxscores from, Ellis has
gotten technical fouls. 

Hope his wife and car(s) are okay ...

Speaking of Ellis, it occurred to me the other day that with 
Dale's past drinking problems, Milwaukee is not the place to 
be...

Good thing the NBA isn't in St. Louis anymore...

daryll

    Whole different team.  Same sorry-ass story.  Soups lose 3 of 4 on the
    road trip to Minn, San Antonio, Houston and Dallas.  The three losses
    included 2 two-pointers the last two games.  In both, they had big
    leads, lost them in a hurry, scrambled to get back in it only to choke
    it away at the foul line in the last minute.
    
    Last night, against a weak Dallas team, Benoit missed two free-throws
    with under a minute to go, McKey might as well been sitting on the
    bench, and Payton did his matador impression on lightning-quick Brad
    Davis to give up a game-winning layup at the buzzer to lose.  The only
    guy on the team that comes through in the clutch is Pierce and he can't
    do it all.
    
    This is an improved team, but they just can't win close games.  They
    clang more free throws in the final minutes than a jr. high school
    team.  They are 0-4 in OT games.  
    
    McKey has become a non-entity.  He was always reluctant to shoot, but
    now he's just refusing.  I hope the Sonics have learned their lesson
    and will consider a player's intensity when they draft him.  McKey just
    doesn't seem to care about anything: scoring, winning, etc.
    
    But, does it really matter?  The StuporSonics have a lock on the 8th
    playoff spot and a date with Portland (if they hang on to first).
    
    
    Pete
        

    >>Could someone post Benoit's numbers since he became a Sonic ?
    
    Heard on the radio that Benoit is averaging 11 rebounds and 14 points
    in about 32 minutes as a Sonic.
    
    I attended the Utah game Saturday.  Benoit didn't play at all after 
    a quarter and a half.  He had a pathetic 1-5 effort until then.  I
    think KC is fed up with the StuporSonics miserable performance of 
    late.  He's probably going to start EJ and bring McKey off the bench.
    
    The Stups figured out new ways to lose in the last two games.  Against
    Minnesota, they had a 20 point lead with 5 1/2 minutes to go in the 
    3rd.  They lost the lead, went to OT and lost (at home, no less).
    
    Then against Utah, they fell behind by 18 in the first half, fought
    back, then lost in OT.  They are now 0-6 in OT games.  
    
    The frustrating thing is that they are in every game, but just can't
    get over the hump.  Against Utah, they had the ball with 9 seconds to
    go in a tie game.  Kemp gets the ball near the baseline and steps on
    the line.  Everybody wants to be the hero and they all fail miserably
    trying to do it by themselves.  
    
    They have 5 brutal games coming up: Lakers, Phoenix, Lakers, Port,
    Port.  
    
    Pete

    How's the NBA's greatest pickup team doing?
                                       
    I see from the standings that they won two in a row (LA and Phoenix?), 
    but I presume the Lakers got revenge last night ...
    
    Brian 
    
    

    Brian,
    
    Lakers won 113-96.  Magic had 33 points and 11 assists, while Perkins
    and Worthya dded 19, and AC Green 15.  Kemp led the Sonics with 21.
    
    THey've shown signs of being good - but have been up and down.  I think
    they need more time to play together.
    
    However, the Seattle Times had a few letters from fans complaining
    about Benjamin, Pierce and EJ (couldn't quite understand the gripe -
    other than they aren't Akeem, Jordan, and Dominique)...
    
    JD

Don't forget the article that said 


"Don King wants to make Benjamin the Tyson of the NBA"


Great...Now we're going to have an NBA center who drives his car into trees,
marries a gold digger and gets beat up by 1 shot wonders.


Sonics have developed a new strategy.....Get way ahead in the early stages
of the 3rd quarter (15-30) points and let the other team make a furious comeback.
Then they can either;

a) blow the game at the free throw line
b) blow the game with poor defense down the stretch
c) blow the game by forgetting how to shoot down the stretch
d) win the game by giving the ball to Pierce or EJ every time in the 4th quarter.


They had the Lakers by 27 midway through 3rd and let them catch up to within
6 before they finally started giving it to Pierce every time down the floor and
let him draw the foul and go to the line.


I think they could gel into a good team given time and a real coach.


Metz

    EJ sure gained a measure of revenge against his old team on Friday
    night.  Suns were up by 11 at the half.  EJ nailed half of his 34
    points in the 4th quarter and he only had 4 points at intermission.
    
    After the game he said, "It feels great!"
    
    Mike

    Brian...
    
    You see Wynton at Troy Music Hall last month?
    

EJ had one of those halfs where a player can throw up anything and manage to 
hit Net against the Suns. He hit a couple of incredible fallaway jumpers that
had me amazed.

The best trade they made all season.....

Let's see if he keeps it up during the playoffs...


Metz

    Just when I was writing scathing notes about what a pathetic bunch of
    losers the StuporSonics are, they go and put together two great games
    to beat LA and Phoenix.  Yes, they almost choked away a huge lead
    against the Lakers, but they held on at the end.  They were blown away
    by an inspired Magic last night, but I'm encouraged by their recent
    games.
    
    The Phoenix game showed what they're capable of.  They played with 
    emotion and got tough late, just when they normally fold.  I loved EJ's
    spike of the ball at the buzzer after he'd just buried the Suns with
    a great 4th quarter display of scoring.  I agree with Metz.  EJ and
    Pierce are far and away superior to X and Ellis in crunch time. 
    
    As for Benoit, the fans are kind of disgusted because his worst games
    came right after he signed the mondo contract.  Coincidence?  I don't
    know.  I do know he was beyond pathetic against Utah.  Then, he was an
    animal in the first half against the Lakers.  They called in Bill
    Russell to tutor him between those games.  I think Ben's a head case
    and has motivational problems, but if he gets up for the playoffs, the
    Stupes could do some damage.  
    
    Biggest remaining problems: Payton gets eaten alive by the good point
    guards.  They have big lapses like the 2nd half against LA where they
    can't do anything.  The defense is still soft in the middle, even with
    Benoit.  Kemp has struggled a bit with the addition of a few more
    scorers to the team.
    
    Significant improvements of late: McKey has been hitting the 18 foot
    jumpers regularly, something he didn't do earlier in the season (or his
    career), the free-throw shooting has been a bright spot (getting rid of
    Olden guaranteed that),  Pierce and EJ give them a good option when
    things get tough. 
    
    Look for Seattle to give Portland (or LA or Phoenix) a battle in the
    first round.  They'll lose, but won't look overmatched.  They'll be a
    good team next year.
    
    Pete 

>    Look for Seattle to give Portland (or LA or Phoenix) a battle in the
>    first round.  They'll lose, but won't look overmatched.  They'll be a
>    good team next year.
    
    If you look at the first round matchups in the West, seeds 5-8 could
    literally beat any of the 1-4 seeds!
    
    Mike

    Sorry to hear Gary Payton is sputtering. Sounds like he has talent,
    just needs time. Next year, maybe he'll settle down like Pooh
    Richardson of the Timberwolves who has been awesome the last two
    games I saw him play vs. the Nets ...
    
    RE. Walt in .107:                                              
    
    I've seen Wynton twice in Seattle, but somehow I missed his Troy
    concert, thanks to the total lack of pre-show publicity in the
    Saratoga area. (Didn't hear about it until it was
    too late to get tickets.) Were you in the area -- able to go? 
    The Troy Music Hall is fun -- saw Chick Corea there last year.
    
    Brian 

    re: .110
    
    Mike, I'd love to see a first round matchup between the Sonics and
    Suns.  I have a feeling it would be a lot like the first round series
    between the Sonics and Dallas about 4 years ago when Dale Ellis was
    still steamed at Motta for not giving him any playing time.  The Sonics
    had been hammered by the Mavs every game during the regular season.
    Ellis almost single-handedly beat Dallas.  He as a man on a mission.
    I could see the same thing happening with EJ.  You can tell he's still
    a little p.o.ed at Phoenix for the way he perceives he was treated the
    last year or so.  The Seattle Times had a little box with the head-to-
    head matchup between X and EJ.  EJ had a huge advantage.  For better
    or worse, X doesn't seem to have that seething hatred that inspires
    players in the playoffs.
    
    BTW, you might have said something in another note, but if it's not too
    personal, could you let us know your fate once PNO is shut down.  If
    you don't want to make it public, just send me mail.
    
    Re: Payton.
    
    Brian, he's having a decent season.  His problem was high expectations
    and his own popping off before the season about how he'd make the team
    have 10 more wins.
    
    He has a pretty poor outside shot, but is a good assist man and can
    penetrate when he wants to.  He has a little of the Michael Cage
    disease, which is finishing the shot off once he's inside.  He's too
    intimidated.  I think he'll steadily get better, eventually being a
    KJ without the outside shot.  If he develops a shot, he could be very
    good.  Heck, if Nate could learn to shoot, so can Payton.
    
    Pete

The good thing with the sonics now is that they don't need Payton to shoot.
They've got a lot of scorers and with Payton not shooting it gives more 
opportunities for the scorers to let it fly. 

I'd love it if Payton would score only 10 ppg but get at least 10+ assists 
every time out. IMHO he's got to work on penetrating and then dishing it off 
to the big boys.

metz

    re Brian:
    Yeah, I went.  My parents have subscription tixs and (oddly enough)
    were in Seattle that weekend, so I got to go... Great show...

    Re: My question to Mike H.  I found the answer in the junk note.  Good
    luck to you.
    
    I missed a good game on the tube last night.  Soops fell behind
    Portland by over 20 points in the 3rd quarter and I couldn't take it 
    anymore, so I turned it off.  Then, I turned it back on later, and they 
    had cut a 27 point 3rd quarter deficit to 6.  They later cut it to 3
    with 2 minutes left.  Then, the Blazers pulled away to win by about 13.
    
    Funny thing was that the scrubs were in at the end.  Barros and Dailey
    were the guards.  Dailey was put in in the 2nd quarter.  
    
    Pete 

>    BTW, you might have said something in another note, but if it's not too
>    personal, could you let us know your fate once PNO is shut down.  If
>    you don't want to make it public, just send me mail.
    
    yeah I'll be looking for a job ;-)
    

    Mike,
    
    Glad to hear in the other note you'll be staying with DEC.  Now, I can
    taunt you when the Suns get blown away early in the playoffs 8^).
    
    Soops clinched a playoff spot last night by doing what they do best -
    being idle.  The Clippers lost, so Seattle's in.  Now they have to try
    to catch Golden State to avoid a first round humiliation at the hands
    of Portland.
    
    Big Ben has been pretty much a stiff since he signed his contract.  He
    was outplayed something bad by, of all people, Olden Polynice last
    week.  OP went nuts, with 18 points and 11 rebounds (or thereabouts).
    Ben had about 6 points and 5 boards.  
    
    The team has recently had incredibly balanced scoring.  EJ and Pierce
    usually lead with around 20 points each.  You can also usually count
    on double figures from Threatt, Kemp, McKey and sometimes Benoit.  Add
    a few by McMillan, Cage and Payton and scoring usually isn't a problem.
    They still seem to have a severe "chemistry" problem.  Payton had two
    games recently where he averaged 1 assist (0 and 2).  
    
    Pete

    Looks like this note is in the same state of malaise as the Stupes.
    
    Well, they finally beat the Blazers.  Incredibly, the game wasn't
    on TV, but I did catch the last few seconds when TBS cut to it.
    
    At least they salvaged some respectability.  Benjamin had a good
    game.  Pierce continues to kill them in the post-season, though.
    The Sonics probably could have won game 1 in Portland if it weren't
    for his bricks and some incredibly moronic substitutions by KC late
    in the game.  Payton was doing a great job keeping Drexler in check.
    So, what's a coach to do?  Bench Payton in the 4th, of course, and
    let Clyde run wild.  
    
    Pete

 National saya they won it with a 19-7 run in crunchtime (last six minutes).
 Not like the Supe's you guys have been telling us about all year...Payton
 and Nate stymied Drexler and Benoit played up to his contract by the report.
 Interesting must be the Ryan curse as Bob all but conceed the title to
 Portland a month ago....

 mike

    ...and EJ torched some Blazer for 30+ points for the 4th straight game.
    Who's trying to guard him anyway?
    
    Suns could've used his perimeter shooting the last week or so.  Too bad
    he never shot like that in the playoffs while here.
    
    Mike

    This Laker fan doesn't have his fingers crossed, Mike.  I'd have rather
    they played Phoenix and Portland (even though the matchups wouldn't
    allowed it).  I think the team needs the hard road for it to succeed,
    and I was very confident that they would have plastered the Suns and
    pretty confident that they could take the Blazers in 6 or so.
    
    Lakers have been largely the forgotten team during the playoff hype. 
    It suits me fine.  Obviously, you're starting to sweat.
    
    Dan

    You know Dan, you hit it on the haid. The Lakers weren't in the
    limelight, Portlyand(tm) and Detriot(tm) was and now they face extinction.
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! 
    
    The rest of the NBA better watch out cuz L.A. is gonan stomp 'em all!!

 Danny baby we own the Lakers 8-2 in the finals!!! I'm praying for a rematch
 so we can prove what a fluke 85 and 87 were.....We were all set to prove it
 back in 86 till youse guys chickenshitted out....

 ;^)

 mike

    Ancient history, Mike.  Let's check out the current era.  Who's that
    eating Magic and Worthy's dust?  Why it's Larry Bird, but McHale's
    right behind him with his forearm right in the small of Larry's back.
    
    Dan

    The Stupes, indeed, are a rejuvenated team in the playoffs, just like
    4 years ago when they played LA in the conference finals.  Big Ben
    and Kemp berating their teammates for not going inside paid off.  
    
    The first two games in Portland, the Sonics were hanging around at 4 to
    8 points behind, but when crunch time came, they settled for EJ or
    Pierce to launch the long ones.  Now, they're taking it inside.  It's
    working well.  Also, Payton is playing a great series.  He's running
    the offense well, not turning it over and playing some intense D on
    Clyde.  He's justifying his lofty spot in the draft.
    
    To win tomorrow, Pierce has to do something.  He has been horrible so
    far, shooting around 30%.  He was 1-6 last I heard last night.  They
    also need a fairly-officiated game.  The first two were blatantly
    pro-Portland.  
    
    In the interest of full disclosure, however, Portland would have won
    last night if they'd just made a respectable number of free throws.
    They finished around 21 for 40, I'd guess.  
    
    Pete

    Re: free throws
    
    We were talkin' about this in Celts notes the other day.  I can't
    believe these so called "pros" that can't hit the easiest shot in the
    game.  I can do it all day with my eyes closed.
    
    Both the Suns and Jazz were awful from the line in their series. 
    Phoenix might have won the series if they hit 80%.  They missed over 10
    of them in each of the last 2 games.
    
    Mike

Take the trash to the Celts and Laker files will ya?

I'd given up on the supes after their two losses in Portland. I was happy that 
they just kept both games repectable. Now I'm more than Happy. I've been waiting
for this team to gel for most of the season after their wheeling and dealing
at mid season. It looked like I was waiting in vain after their dismal 
performance in the 2nd half of the season. O.K. it wasn't dismal but it was
quite less than I expected for a team with all this talent.

I still think KC must go. They had a good chance at stealing one of the games 
in Portland because of the D payton was playing but KC sat him for most of the 
4th quarter and let Pierce get roasted.

I'm very happy with the way EJ has played in this series. Quite different from
his disappearing acts with the Suns. 

Here's hoping for a well officiated game........


Metz

    Well, no big surprise.  The Supes were blown out by an inspired Blazer
    team on Saturday.  They were up by 30 in the third, but ended up
    winning by 12 to make it sound respectable.  Oh, well.  The Sonics
    didn't embarass themselves, as I had feared before the series started.
    
    For next year, leave the team alone for once.  Let them get used to
    playing together.  The only move I'd even consider would be to package
    Pierce with their #1 pick to move up in the draft.  Then, take either
    a backup center or a good shooting guard.  If they're not going to play
    Barros, do him a favor and move him, too.  But, I'd leave the starting
    lineup and most of the reserves alone.  This team has talent, now it 
    needs time and chemistry.
    
    Pete

    Time to enter a note and see if there's anybody interested in the
    Supes anymore.  I'm not even sure I am.
    
    I got ahold of some 5th row tickets to last night's game vs.
    Sacramento.  The seats were right behind the Sonics' bench.  The 
    best I've ever had for a b-ball game.
    
    They've lost 2 of their first 3 at home, to Phoenix and San Antonio.
    They beat Sac last night.  They are incredibly slow and sluggish on
    offense.  Last night, they pulled away when they started running, but
    the half court game is pathetic.  They miss Kemp, who's out for another
    coupla games with a foot sprain.  He had on a walking cast last night.
    
    Bright spot so far: Payton is playing agressive ball.  He had 18 points
    and 9 or 10 assists last night, as well as a few steals.  The team D
    is looking good.  I don't think they'll miss Sedale too much.  I was
    never much of a fan of his.  I think Barros can do whatever Threatt
    can and more.  I thought the trade was a bonehead move though.  Second
    round picks from the Lakers???  Real smart, Whitsitt.  You get lots of
    good players with the 45th guys in the draft.  And, trading him to a
    division rival isn't commonly thought of as real shrewd, either.
    
    I have a feeling this will be another incredibly mediocre season.  Most
    fans must feel the same way.  The Coliseum was half empty last night.
    
    Pete

Hey, Sonics fans!! Time to wake up! The guys seem to have some life in them!

Sonics are tied for first in the division at 7-3 after winning their last three
games, all on the road. Most recent victim: Detroit last night.

I have only seen one game on the tube (TNT at the start of the season; don't
even remember who they played, but they lost) but I've been following the box
scores from the right coast. Cage lately has been a monster: scoring in double
figures and pulling in 10+ boards, with a 20-board showing the other night.
Must be trying to prove something with Kemp still out.

Big Ben Benoit doesn't look good in the stats, usually shooting under .500. But
he must be clogging up the middle pretty well on D, because opponents aren't
shooting too well against the Sonics.

Otherwise, the team seems to have nice balanced scoring. McKey, Pierce, Eddie
Johnson, Payton all have big nights from time to time. 

Brian                                                 

    Brian,
    
    Awright!  Maybe I won't be talking to myself in here all year.  Where
    ya been?  I thought maybe you got "rightsized".
    
    Anyway, I wrote a note in the NBA note (#6) about the Detroit game and
    the Supes performance so far.
    
    If I can put my finger on one reason for the Sonics' play, it would be
    the emergence of Gary Payton as an aggressive point guard.  He's doing
    it all, including scoring.  He a couple of critical hoops against
    Detroit, one a banked-in 3-pointer, another a nice reverse layin with
    time on the shot clock running out.  He's playing great defense, too.
    
    Cage has had two 20/20 games - rebounds and points.  Big Ben has been
    steady.  He has a nice shooting touch and is good on D.  Pierce has
    been excellent, also.  He is the guy they can turn to when the offense
    breaks down.  He can almost always create a good shot.  Barros has even
    been contributing.  They have brought him in if the team starts
    faltering late in the game.  He's a great ballhandler and has been
    hitting some big threes.  McKey is playing fairly well, too.  He's 
    seemed alot more aggressive and consistent this year, his 3-15 shooting
    against Detroit being an exception.
    
    All-in-all, they are playing some good ball, winning 5 of 6 on the road
    so far.  I hope Kemp's return doesn't disrupt the team's chemistry.
    
    Pete

Pete, I agree: McKey seems to be more aggressive offensively, judging from his
trips to the line. He and Pierce seem to get around 8 to 10 points a game each
via free throws. That's something the Sonics didn't have in recent years.

When is Kemp due back? 

Nice to be in a position of not needing to make a big trade, isn't it?! ;-)

RE. getting "rightsized": yes, my group (media communications) got
"outsourced", but I'm back as a contractor. They just can't shake me!

Brian

    Big Mac,
    
    Good to here from you.  I'm mostly a RON in here.  I still share the
    season tickets that you had with us a couple of years back.  I've been
    to 2 games so far, and woudn't you know it; I saw the 2 that we lost. 
    I witnessed a great performance by the Admiral, and I thought at the
    time that "THIS IS GOING TO BE A LOOOONG YEAR".  Maybe this chemistry
    thing that KC always talk about is paying off.  The guys had a good
    training camp.  Big Ben came into camp about 30 pounds lighter and in
    shape, even though I can't see the weight loss.  Pierce came in lighter
    and really focused.  Before the season began, Nate had a team
    BBQ/meeting at his place for the players only.  Focus and chemistry
    seemed theme.  
    
    Payton is a lot more aggressive this year, taking it to the hoop and
    going to the line a lot more.  McKey is also more aggressive this year.
    He's finally decided that he is going to get his 20 shots per game and
    he's consistently soring in the low to high 20's per game.  Cage has
    been a terror on the boards, going to make life interesting for Kc when
    Kemp returns.  I hope that this doesn't turn into a minutes problem
    like we had last year.  EJ & Pierce are both contributing as the vets
    that they are.  It seems that each of those guys are best when playing
    30 - 35 minutes.  KC did a good job of distributint PT during this road
    trip.  
    
    
    Al

Hey, Al ... glad to hear you're still enjoying the Supes! 

I'm sure there must be something positive to say about the recent nailbiter
losses to the Bulls and Clippers, but I can't think of anything.  These guys
have to win those close ones if they're going to make it to 50 wins this year
...

It may be a curse akin to making the cover of S.I., but the Sonics were cited
in yesterday's Wall Street Journal as one of the more exciting teams of the
early season. 

Brian

That's quite a respected sports publication...The Wall Street Journal....

The supes just got outlucked vs. the clippers. I still can't believe that 3
pointer that got thrown in. 

Pete Crouch, JD and myself will be at the Sonics game tonight. JD will be the
one getting beat up by all the Husky fans :-)


Here's hoping they start a home winning streak..


Metz

    
    Shawn Kemp is GOD!  What a steal for the Sonics grabbing this guy
    in the late first round.  

    Happy B'day to Kemp.  He's having his ankle tested by the doc today.
    Probably will suit up tonight.  He has missed all of the games of the
    season so far due to an ankle injury.
    

    The mini-SPORTS get together at the Sonics game was a success.  
    The Supes won in OT over the Warriors 136-130.  Kemp saved the day
    with 21 points in 23 minutes.  He must've had 8 slams.  He couldn't
    hit anything from the outside, though and took some incredibly ill-
    advised shots, including a 3-point brick in crunch time.  Barros was
    very good in the first half, but didn't play in the second half.  He
    sprained an ankle at the end of the first half.
    
    We did manage to sit by some ill-mannered vulgarians once again.  
    Actually, they were pretty funny.  When a rather rotund lady sank
    a free throw at halftime to win a $10 gift certificate to Safeway,
    one of them screamed at her to spend it on "big underwear".  They
    also had some equally witty comments to screech at this year's crop
    of lovely Sonic Dancers.  
    
    Pete

    Yep - A fine get together.  Pete was impressed with my "YES! MICHIGAN!"
    button.  
    
    The SONIC Gals have improved dramatically.  Still not in the SeaGals
    league - but much better than before.  Heck, they even led cheers!
    
    Michael Cage should be banned from shooting.  Ever.  The man is 6'10"
    or so and missed a dunk!  And other gimme's.    Shawn Kemp seems
    preparted to move on to another level.  He'll be in the Barkley/Mailman
    class soon.
    
    Payton got schooled, torched, lit up by Hardeway.  Chris Mullin can pay
    gawd anytime.
    
    Ben Benjamin looked like a 300 pound sack of potatoes - actually, the
    sack of potatoes showed more life then Ben did.
    
    Rich King will be the next Greg Kite.  Except he can hit free throws.
    
    One day K.C. will master the little things like knowing the
    substitution rules.
    
    Dana Barros was lighting it up - then hurt his ankle - never
    returned...
    
    Don Nelson gets more from nothing than anyone else.
    
    Sharunis Marcelanus (spelling) is fundamentally sound. It's funny
    watching him use his 1950's USA text book moves and faking guys like
    Pierce, Barros, And Doughnut Dailey out of their shoes.
    
    McKey looks better - but the jury is still out.
    
    Gary Payton HAS to learn to attack the hoop.
    
    Rod Higgins should be shot.
    
    Tolbert needs a new haircut - badly.
    
    Victor Alexander is a wide body.  ALton Listers' got no legs.
    
    Shawn Kemp can dunk.  But Shawn don't know 3-pointers.
    
    Billy Owens was a huge liability out there.  He started as the 2 guard
    - and he's useless.  He can't pick up the open man - he gets out of
    control, and he was picked clean about 4 times.  
    
    The guys in front of us must be part of a roving group that always sits
    near us.  They were loud and crazy - and sometimes funny.
    
    The Sonics cleaned up on the Hustle board.
    
    JD

If Kemp hadn't played lasted night the Sonics would have lost by 30+. He was
the only guy out there playing with any enthusiasm. 

Benjamin needs to have Kemp wallop him upside the head with the 2x2 that was
in the row behind us. Maybe he'd wake up then.

Hardaway burnt Payton to a cinder 5 times on the same cross over dribble move.

Tolliver goes on my NBA all ugly team.

Chris Mullin is gawd...but he's so white you can't tell where his socks begin.

The sonic dancers should change their uniforms again....as JD said only 2 women
in the world can wear spandex and not look fat in it.....

Why do promoters assume that watching amateurs attempt to shoot a ball through 
a hoop at halftime is exciting for the crowd ? (Pete Crouch's words of wisdom)

Metz
 

    Hawk, we went wifout the wives.  We brought 'em once last year, but
    I think JD's wife read a book the whole time.  We did the manly things.
    We had buffalo wings, potato skins and nachos for dinner, got some
    $1.50 happy hour brews and left our seats by climbing over seats to the
    back row, instead of the wussy method of walking politely down your
    row.  We also had the politically incorrect discussion of the relative
    merits of certain Sonics Dancers' buttocks.
    
    Metz, I think you mean Tolbert for the all-butt-ugly team, right?  Last
    time I saw a haircut that bad was when my 5 year old nephew cut his
    own.
    
    Big Ben should have cleaned up last night, but didn't do a thing.  With
    just talent and size, his stats are always respectable, but he's be
    a force with just a little motivation.  Maybe he'll come alive in the
    playoffs, when they really need it.
    
    The Supes snapped an 0-8 streak in OT games under KC.  
    
    Pete

    Soops predictably have gone sour lately.  Granted, they've missed
    McKey and Pierce the past 1 1/2 games.  They're both day-to-day with
    minor injuries, but they've lost their momentum.  After the hard-
    fought win over Golden State, they lost on the road to Denver.  That
    was the game in which McKey and Pierce got hurt.  They then got blown
    out at San Antonio.  They've lost 4 of their last 5.
    
    Kemp missed two straight practices for personal reasons.  Big Ben
    missed one, and one of the anonymous veterans is griping in the paper
    about the lack of commitment to winning these missed practices exhibit.
    Kemp didn't play much against Denver, as punishment for missing
    practice.  
    
    They have 3 games at home they should win this week: Washington, 
    Minnesota and Dallas.
    
    Pete

>    out at San Antonio.  They've lost 4 of their last 5.
    
    While Phoenix has won 4 of their last 5 and are breathing down their
    necks.

    
    >While Phoenix has won 4 of their last 5 and are breathing down their
    >necks.
    
    People in Phoenix must be mighty proud of that sub-500 team they've
    put together.  Go Phoenix, what a team!
    

    Pierce has stitches from a conk on the head.  He should be ready to go
    against the Bullets tonight.
    
    Mckey has a sprained groin, this can be tricky.  If he plays, he
    probably won't be 100%.  I say let him rest up for the road next week,
    when he'll be needed more.
    
    Barros is still hobbling with an ankle sprain that caused him to miss
    the Nuggets and Spurs games last week.  Day to day.
    
    They really need to win these home games this week because, 
    next week is going to be a tough one on the road:
    
    BULLS     TUE   DEC-10
    NICKS     WED   DEC-11
    CELTICS   FRIDAY THE 13TH
    76'ERS    SAT   DEC-14
    
    Feels like a 1-3 trip to me.

>    People in Phoenix must be mighty proud of that sub-500 team they've
>    put together.  Go Phoenix, what a team!
    
    About as proud as Cleveland was of their losers the past few decades!
    
    How long before they start playing with their hands wrapped around
    their throats?

>    Kemp missed two straight practices for personal reasons.  Big Ben
>    missed one, and one of the anonymous veterans is griping in the paper
>    about the lack of commitment to winning these missed practices exhibit.
>    Kemp didn't play much against Denver, as punishment for missing
>    practice.  
 
Any chance that "anonymous veteran" used to have the longest, greasiest hair in
the league (but now sports a proper `do' and still has the broadest shoulders
this side of the Mailman)?

Looks like the start of the Cage/Kemp controversy. Averaging around 12 boards
per game (5th in the league), Cage is finally doing what Bernie B. brought him
to Seattle for. Question is, does KC value such skills, especially when he's
got an impact player like Kemp ready to come into his own?

Reminds me a little of the controversy they used to have in Chicago, when a
rebounder name of Oakley was being challenged by the upstart Horace Grant ...

Brian

    re -.1
    
    Except that Kemp can be better than Grant ever DREAMED of being ....
    
    Doc

    
    Kemp is better right now than Grant!

    re: .150
    
    Brian, I suspect the veteran was either EJ or Pierce (or maybe Nate).
    Cage started out like a house afire, but hasn't done much lately, so
    he can't be popping off too much.  He's averaged 5 rebounds/game in
    his last several games.
    
    In fact, almost everyone has cooled off.  Payton has returned to last
    season's form (3 or 4 points, 5 turnovers, 5 assists).  The only
    players who give 100% every night are EJ and Pierce.  Kemp's a wild
    man.  He's heaving up 20 footers and missing layins.  He just doesn't
    play smart b-ball.  He'll come around eventually.
    
    I had the misfortune of attending the Washington game Tues night.  What
    a horrendous performance.  They pulled it out with a late rally, but it
    was undoubtedly the least inspired basketball game I've ever attended.
    The first half was a turnover fest.  Payton was invisible, as was
    Big Bone, err, Ben.  This team needs a heart transplant.  
    
    Pete

    
    Kemp must not have his head in the game yet.  He's putting up decent
    scoring numbers, but his rebounding is non-existent.

Sonics get chewed up on the road by Chicago and red-hot Knicks. Kemp injures
himself again. McMillan and Payton combine for 10 points and 10 assists per
game. McKey is  DNP again due to injury. EJ goes 3-10 again. Big Ben is
dominated by the likes of Will Purdue.

Besides Pierce, is anybody on this roster in the running for  an All-Star spot?

Brian

    Kemp ans Benji-man have gashed on there hands from rim and both may
    miss tonight's game with the Celtics.....
    
    REK

    The StuporSonics came off their dismal road trip (0-4 - all losses to
    good teams, though) to beat the red-hot Clippers (boy, doesn't that
    sound weird) last night at home.
    
    Payton must've read some of the negative press he's getting.  He played
    a good game finally.  He's been pathetic recently.  Against Philly,
    when he came out and Nate went in, the offense started to click.  Then,
    KC puts Payton back in during crunch time, and they fall further and
    further behind.
    
    The Stupes' problem is that they play hard, and fairly well against
    the good teams.  Only the Celts really blew them out on the road trip,
    but they play just well enough to lose.  Then they play half-hearted
    games against the dregs of the league, and lose or just squeak by.
    
    They have been devastated by injuries this year so far, but good teams
    play through that.  They've had three guys miss games due to cuts
    (Benjamin and Kemp's hands, and Pierce's head).  McKey's been out with
    a groin and wrist injury.  Kemp's been out with a sprained ankle.  Same
    with Barros.
    
    Starting this weekend, they'll have the starters all healthy for the
    first time.  I hope it helps.
    
    Pete

    Well, 'Eunichs fans, it doesn't get any more dismal than this.  
    
    Orlando, those inept, incompetent, cellar-dwelling, losers of 17 games 
    in a row, poor excuses for basketball players, beat the Eunichs by a
    point last night.
    
    How many ways can the Eunichs blow it?  Let's see:
    
    1. They blew a 7 point lead with 3 minutes left.
    
    2. They missed 8 of their last 12 free throws, all in crunch time.
    
    3. Maybe most incredible of all, they lost after they had the ball with
       a one point lead with 3 seconds left.  How is this possible, you
       axe.  If you have the most cretinous b-ball player in the NBA, it's
       easy.  Kemp grabbed the rebound with a few seconds left.  Does he
       just stand there and let time run out?  Of course not.  He heads
       upcourt, thinking he's Magic.  He loses the ball, Sam Vincent picks
       it up and Kemp fouls him.  He sinks two free throws with .6 seconds
       left.
    
    4. Orlando was playing without two of their best players, Scott and
       Skiles.  Sonic reject Vincent torches them for 35 points.
    
    The sad thing is that I don't think they even care that they lose games
    like this.  This team is the biggest waste of talent I've ever seen.
    They've been blaming their mediocrity all year on injuries.  Guess
    what, Eunichs?  You can't use that excuse anymore.  All your players
    are healthy.  
    
    It's time for KC to resign.  He's lost control of this team.  His
    hands-off approach doesn't work with guys like this as it did in
    Boston.
    
    Disgusted Pete  

I'm psyched that the Sonics finally had the filberts to fire KC. 
I'm sure that he's a great human being but he's a pretty horrible basketball
coach.

He won with talent in Boston and I've tried to impress that on Pete for 2
seasons now.

The Sonics management assembled a cast of quality players around him for the
past year and he's done nothing with them except guide them to a .500 record.

Here's hoping they get a butt kicking coach with enough gumption to bench the
players that aren't producing and start kicking some rookie swelled head butt
(Payton) and getting this team in order...

Let's also hope that he's a coach that advocates an up tempo game....


Metz

    Metz,
    
    I put a note or two in the NBA note about this.
    
    I'm also very happy a change is being made.  I've been a KC basher for
    a long time now.  I told my wife after the miserable loss to the Hornets
    that KC would soon be fired.  She couldn't believe it when it happened 
    the very next day.
    
    There was a good article in the Times about why KC got canned.  It
    sounds like he didn't care too much whether they won or lost.  After
    the most pathetic performace of the year (until that time - it get
    surpassed every game), the loss to Philly at home, KC held a 40 minute
    shoot-around as a practice the next day.  He never disciplines players.
    Kemp is looking more and more like an Orlando Woolridge every day.
    Payton still doesn't have a jump shot.  Kemp misses practices and 
    refuses to join the team at halftime and nothing happens.  Metz told
    me he read in another paper that Payton spent the pre-game warmup time
    in another game laying on the floor chatting with the opponents' bench.
     
    KC lost control and didn't know how to get it back.  I'm listening to
    KJR (the local all-sports station) and am surprised at the overwhelming
    animosity towards Kemp and Payton, and to a lesser extent, Benjamin.
    I think fans are getting real frustrated that those two do not seem to
    be doing anything to improve their games.  
    
    Pete

    George Karl is rumored to be the new Sonics coach.

    George, indeed, is the new coach.  Whatta change in styles: from
    KC's corpse-like demeanor to wild-man Karl.  If Karl can't get these
    guys going, nobody can.  Story is he once ripped the door off of
    Joe Barry Carroll's locker after Karl thought JBC didn't put forth
    adequate effort.  If that's true, several Sonics had better put
    heavy-duty hinges on their lockers.
    
    Pete

Nice p-name Pete.

Who is this guy and what has he done prior to coaching in the European league?

My guess is that Peyton had better get some sort of bank vault safe for his
locker...


Metz

    He was a coach for a while at Golden State.  Got canned.  Coached in
    the CBA for a while, last stop was at the Albany Patroons.  Coached
    the team the went unbeaten at home for the season and something like
    48-6.  Didn't win the championship due to management screwups (booking
    the arena for the Dead and Disney stuff so they lost home court the
    first 2 rounds), and call ups to the NBA.

|   <<< Note 71.165 by ROYALT::ASHE "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,Deliverance Dude" >>>

Walt,

GREAT p-name!


'Saw

    Yeah, but how many championships does the DD have?  Or Seattle?

    I got's TWO (2) CHAMPEENSHIPS!!!!!
    
    Schlep taht!
    
    I remain,
    back_for_now (hehehe)
    
    Kev
    

    Metz,
    
    I got the p-name after watching Dana Carvey chundering on SNL a couple
    of weeks back.  Too funny, but extremely disgusting.
    
    Karl also coached at Cleveland for 1 year, I think.  He's a disciple
    of Don Nelson's.  Even though he has an abysmal W-L record, he was
    2nd or 3rd in Coach of the Year balloting twice.  This will be the
    first team he's had with some talent.  
    
    I think he'll improve the team, if only because he won't tolerate the
    lazy, sloppy efforts that this team habitually puts forth.  
    
    Pete

    Karl coached the Warriors and Cadavers.
    
    "I'm gonna hurl!" - George Bush in front of Japan's leaders
    

    
    George Karl is an excellent coach.  He coached the Cavaliers in
    his short stint to as many World Championships as the Phoenix Suns
    have won in their entire history!

    But how many confer...., uh never mind ....

    I'll help you Doc!
    
    "HOW MANY CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS HAVE THE CADAVERS WON?"
    
    there you go!

    Watch it Mike, or you'll be called a puppet..

       How many playoff series have the Cadaverliers won?
                                Denny

    
    Mike Heiser is not a puppet, although I believe he owns a Wally Wee
    Puppet (made by DrM Inc. and sold exclusively at Lechmere) and he
    has an official DrM Bandwagon Jumper Card in his wallet:
    
            .----------------------------------------------.
            |                                              |
            |      DrM OFFICIAL BANDWAGON JUMPER CARD      |
            |                                              |
            |       Entitles bearer to jump onto and       |
            |       and off of any team's bandwagon        |
            |      with no notice and no explanation!      |
            |                                              |
            |        NOT VALID WITH ANY OTHER OFFER        |
            |  NOT TO BE USE MORE THAN 1,000,000 times/day |
            |                                              |
            |                       expires - 12/31/3000   |
            `----------------------------------------------'
    

    You are a good soul Mike .... but Walt is right, be careful ...

    Groaner, I guess the answer is 0 ;-)
    
    Mike (who has never shopped at Lechmere in his life and doesn't carry
          cards in his wallet)

    
    I think he works at 7-11 too and sells the dolls there... his talents
    have no limits.

    Sorry Paul, habit I have of warning friends if they're headed for
    trouble or lost causes.  Just something I do...
    
    Although it is interesting what the puppet criteria is.  Care to share?
    

    
    The puppet criteria... its in the dictionary... your face is next
    to the definition.

    Took you all weekend to come up with that?
    
    Sorry, my copy must not be the same as yours, but you must be right.
    Please stick to the topic of note and keep from causing ratholes
    in other people's topics...
    
    Any ideas on how Karl plans to change up the rotation or the style
    of play?  Too early to tell?
    

    
    re: .183
    
    Uh, no Wally it didn't take me all weekend to come up with that...
    Some of us actually do work that makes this company money.  Try it
    some time, the stock could use a boost.
    

    Let's get back to discussing Sports, OK guys?  Any more personal
    attacks will be deleted.

    Well Beaver or is it Honest Paul,
     
    1) Stick with the topic.  This is the Sonics note, not the "Bash
    Walt, George, Heiser and others who don't agree with me topic."
    If you have any other insults to toss my way, use mail, don't
    bore others with your taunts and accusations and general paranoia.
    
    2) Our division turned a double digit profit last fiscal year.  Did yours?
    If you would like more info on this and what we do, see the Fall '91 
    Digital Technical Journal.  I think if you ask the people in charge of 
    this division and the projects associated with it, they'll say I do my 
    part to make a contribution.  I'll stand on that record.
    
    Keep up the good work, maybe some of those less fortunate in this
    company will be able to hold onto their jobs.  

    yeah keep up the good work!  I wanna sell some stock so I can buy a
    Marshall stack ;-)

    Anyway, back to my question again..
    
    How does the rotation ,look with Karl in charge?  How does the style of
    play change?  How is EJ responding now that he has to start instead of
    being a 6th man?
    
    -Walt
    

    
    With Karl at the helm, Kemp and Payton will develop into star caliber
    players.  Karl did very well in Cleveland developing young talent.

    
    We'll have to wait and see on how the rotation develops with Karl at
    the helm. He really doesn't know the players yet. The Supes managed to
    snatch defeat from the jaws of victory over the weekend. 
    
    leading by one with under 24 seconds in the game Barros tossed an
    errant pass to a Jazz player to allow the Jazz to walk away with a W.
    
    Karl will intensify the defensive pressure as well as continue to run
    the ball. Supposedly he has made Payton the floor leader and he has
    responded with a few good games. We'll see if this continues.
    
    
    Metz
    

    Metz, I lied yesterday about the time left.  There was 24.7 seconds
    left when the Supes had the ball with a one point lead.
    
    This makes 3 games in 3 weeks when the Supes had the ball with under
    25 seconds left with the lead and lost the game.  Kemp wore the horns
    twice, now Barros has joined him in goathood.
    
    The team is looking better, though.  Payton has become a terror.  He
    is even burying the jumper now.  He's penetrating and scoring.  They
    miss McKey right now; with him they'd have a couple of more W's.  Karl
    has commented that Kemp needs alot of work.  Too bad DC didn't catch
    a clue about Kemp and Payton.  
    
    Karl's going to work out fine.  Look for the Supes to make the 7th or
    8th playoff spot and do some damage in the first round.  Next year,
    they should gel and actually get a playoff spot where they could win
    a round or two.  Tragedy is they let KC drag this team down for half
    a season.  Why is Whitsitt the only guy in America who couldn't see
    that KC wasn't the right coach for this team?
    
    Pete  

    The Eunics have been playing much, much better under Karl.  They have
    won 5 of their last 6, including wins over tough teams San Antonio and
    Phoenix.  They have been doing all of this without Derrick McKey, who
    is out for another few weeks.
    
    Karl has a great feel for which players work best together.  He has
    been starting Nate McMillan at forward and bringing Kemp off the bench,
    where he has been playing very well.  
    
    Payton says he was about to ask for a trade under KC.  Now, he's
    staying after practice to work on his jumper, which is paying
    dividends.  KC's own non-existent work ethic was emulated by his
    players.  
    
    Big game tonight against the struggling Lakers in the hideous Kingdome.
    If they win, they are only a game and a half behind the Lakers.
    
    Pete

>    The Eunics have been playing much, much better under Karl.  They have
>    won 5 of their last 6, including wins over tough teams San Antonio and
>    Phoenix.  They have been doing all of this without Derrick McKey, who
    
    They have been playing better, but they barely beat a Phoenix team that
    was missing a starter and a 7th man.
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

>   They have been playing better, but they barely beat a Phoenix team that
>   was missing a starter and a 7th man.
    

   Mike, report to note #17....Slasher and Chris are looking for all the
   friends they can find....

  ;^)e+10

    Yeah, they beat the Lakers on a shot at the buzzer by Ricky Pierce.
    Byron Scott, shooting 87%, missed two free throws with about 30 seconds
    left to help out the Stupors.  The Stupes almost blew a 12 point lead
    with 7 minutes left, mainly due to consecutive 3-pointers by Threatt
    and Worthy.
    
    Mike, how do you figure that Phoenix missing a starter hurts them more
    than Seattle missing McKey?  And, who is the 7th man?  After losing at
    home to the likes of Orlando and Charlotte, a win over Phoenix is nice
    no matter who they're missing. 
    
    Pete

    Mike -
    
    As far as I know, a 2 point victory counts as much in the standings as
    a 50 point victory.
    
    HTH.
    
    JD

>    Mike, how do you figure that Phoenix missing a starter hurts them more
>    than Seattle missing McKey?  And, who is the 7th man?  After losing at
    
    I didn't realize Derrick was out.  He and Chambers would've been a
    wash, but KJ's backup is out too (Negele Knight).  KJ's been playing
    way too many minutes and will probably get injured because of it.
    
    Re: JD
    
    My your observant!
    
    Mike

    Mike -
    
    I'm not the one whining about injuries and offering excuses.  Phoenix
    lost - your mighty Suns lost.  Waaaa.
    
    JD

    What that's Mike?  You're still crabby over the Mods stopping the great
    Religion debate.  You've been sniping ever since that happened....
    
    JD

    re: .201  Mike, glad to see you're living up to the credo expressed
    in your p-name 8^).   
    
    Could I axe that we stick to the subject of the note?  This is turning
    into the noters-bashing-noters note.  
    
    Pete                                

    Where'\s the hate, Mike.  Oh, and never said I wasn't capable, just
    that I didn't.  What's the matter Mike - don't like when someone plays
    your game back at ya?    You infering that I hate you? Don't make me
    laugh.  You're hardly worth the effort.
    
    JD

    Pete -
    
    Sorry.  No more from me.
    
    Nice shot by Pierce last night.  Ben Benjamin's been doing a nice job
    too.  So far Karl looks like he's got them thinking out there.  Does
    McKey start when he comes back?  Or does Karl use him off the bench. 
    I've always thought McKey would be good off the bench - less pressure
    on him.  He's never struck me as a guy who handles pressure very well.
    
    JD

    ...but can he motivate Benjamin?  

    Mike -
    
    Benjamin has been playing good - I think he's about 14 ppg, decent
    bounding, and shot blocking.  I think the key is to keep him involved -
    but not make him feel like he's the go-to guy.  He doesn't want to be
    THE MAN, if you know what I mean.   
    
    I think Cage has been a good influence on Ben also. 
    
    Jd

    Awwww, isn't that sweet?  They kissed and made up....  :-)
    

    For whatever reason, Big Ben is the target of fan discontent here
    just like in LA.  I can't figger it out.  The guy has a nice fallaway
    jumper, rebounds, passes well and plays good D.  It seems like people
    like to get all over him because he isn't David Robinson or Ewing.
    His problem is he doesn't look like he's busting his butt every game,
    and he doesn't fare well in head-to-head matchups against the elite
    centers of the NBA.  I suppose these "fans" would like Alton Lister
    or Olden Polynice (or Brad Sellers) back in the pivot.  I'd contend
    that Ben is the best center the Eunichs have had since Jack Sikma.
    
    Did Pierce miss at the line last night?  Watch out Calvin Murphy.
    Pierce is making a run at your consecutive free throw record again.
    
    Pete

The rag has Pierce at 5-6 from the line last night....


Metz

    Supes continue to roll.  They beat the Blazers Sat night without
    McKey and Pierce.  To be fair, the Blazers were playing the back end
    of back-to-back games in LA and Seattle.  But, I wouldn't have given
    the Supes a chance.  The game was played in the Kingdome in front of
    38,000+, with about half the crowd being Blazer fans who made the
    three hour drive.
    
    It's too bad they waited so long to replace KC.  They would probably
    have 5 more wins if Karl had been coach all along.  They definitely
    wouldn't have lost the 3 games in which they had the lead and the ball
    with less than 24 seconds to play.
    
    Pete

    Maybe these guys are for real.  The Stupors beat Utah at Utah in
    OT last night.  The Jazz have only lost three times at home this
    season.  Once to the Knicks and twice to the Sonics.
    
    Last night's game had a playoff intensity atmosphere.  It was a
    phenomenal game with Utah getting 10-12 point leads and the Sonics
    coming back.  George Karl got a T, as did Karl Malone when he slapped
    the ball out of a ref's hands.  Cage almost squared of with Malone and
    with Blue Edwards.  
    
    They've won 9 of 10 against some very good teams, and on the road.
    Everybody is participating.  They are playing good team ball.  Karl
    has a great feel for substitutions, and which players complement each
    other.  If they get up to the 4th or 5th spot, they could win a couple
    of playoff rounds.
    
    Pete   

    
    
    Karl is an excellent coach with young players.  I said it before and
    I'll say it again.  He did a great job in Cleveland and he will in
    Seattle.  He'll get the best out of Kemp and Payton, and those two,
    in my opinion are the key.  Can he motivate Benjamin though?  I don't
    know.  I like this team.  I think they can do some serious damage in
    the playoffs.
    

    It also sounds like Seattle matches up well with Utah (especially at
    forward!).
    
    Mike

    Yes they do, Mike, mostly because the Supes have good defenders at the
    key positions, point guard and forward, to slow down Stockton and
    Malone.  McKey, even though he's out now, is an excellent defender, as
    are Payton and McMillan at guard.
    
    They had a letdown at Sacramento Saturday night and lost, but turned 
    around and beat an excellent Cleveland team at home last night.  To be
    fair, I saw the second half of the game Saturday night and the Kings
    were playing like a team possessed.  They played defense like every
    Sonic possession was the last one in a 106-106 tie in the seventh game
    of the championship series.  The Kings also couldn't miss from the 
    outside.  The Supes could have done alot better rebounding, though,
    but they outboarded the Cavs something like 52-29.  
    
    They have now won 10 of 12, including wins over San Antonio, Portland,
    the Lakers, Phoenix and Utah.  All this without their most versatile,
    talented player, Derrick McKey, who should be back in a week and a
    half.  It'll be very interesting to see if Karl can get Derrick to play
    up to his considerable potential.  
    
    Pete 

Are the Sonics ready for the playoffs or what? Won 7 of 8 (before last night's
game). 12 games over .500. Fighting it out with San Anton for the 5th playoff
spot? George Karl, what did you do to these guys?

Brian

Brian,

I caught a glimpse of the ESPN coverage and it looked like Nate McMillan
had a very good game. Anything you can add to that or how he's been
playing during this streak would be appreciated by this fan o' Nate's.

TTom

    It looks like the Suns are making the mistake of being content with the
    #4 seed and are going thru the motions until the regular season end.
    KJ should have played!
    
    Mike

TTom,

All I get out here (Albany, NY) is box score{, but Nate seems to be putting the
ball up a lot and hitting threes as well. He's probably getting a lot of clear
looks at the basket with all the other scorers on the floor. Woe to the team
that plays Ricky Pierce one-on-one.

Maybe Pete Crouch, J.D., or another Left Coaster can provide details?

Brian

(Still wondering about Benoit!)

    Brian,
    
    Geez, where have you been?  I was talking to myself in here for so
    long, I just gave up.
    
    Big Ben is in the IR for a few more games.  He broke a bone in his
    hand or wrist or something.  They haven't missed him much.  
    
    Nate's been great.  He almost had a quadruple double last night.  He
    nearly had double figures in steals and rebounds.  George moved Kemp
    back to the bench, and he's been playing well, too.  Payton is very
    inconsistent, scoring 18 one night and 0 the next.  McKey is his usual
    underachieving self.  EJ and Pierce have been shooting great.  
    
    More later.
    
    Pete

Thanks for the info on Nate.

A lot of what is happening with him seems to be coming from Karl. Can't
say enough for this former Tar Heel.

TTom

    TTom,
    
    Had to be brief in the last note.  I was writing it while I was
    supposed to be paying attention during a conference call.
    
    Anyway, more on Nate.  He has been playing both at backup point guard
    and as a small forward.  In the past couple of years, he has developed
    a very nice outside shot.  He's hitting threes, even.  He's hit a few
    that have come at crucial times in games.  This from a guy who bricked
    free throws his first couple of years in the league.  His development
    gives one hope for Payton.
    
    Karl has been great for Kemp and Payton, and to a lesser extent,
    Barros.  He has them working on their weaknesses after practice,
    something they refused to do under KC.  He has the team running, which
    KC should have done.  Most of the players do better in an uptempo game.
    They are still learning, and their fast break isn't too pretty yet, but
    it'll get there.  I can't say enough about Karl as a coach.  He looks
    even better because KC was so pathetically bad for this team.
    
    With the M's playing the way they are (they suck bigtime), it's great
    to see the Supes playing so well.  If Karl had been coaching from the 
    start of the season, they'd be battling for second in the division.
    
    Pete

Pete, I confess: I'm a fair weather fan. The Supes are on a winning streak and
it's sunny and 65 degrees out here. 

I'm looking for a Sonics v. Nets matchup in the finals! ;-)

Brian

    Well, it's sunny and about 60 here.  (Well, maybe 58).  We've had
    an incredible last couple of months.  I went waterskiing on Lk
    Washington in late March!  I didn't go until June the last two years.
    
    Let's hope we all survive the upcoming layoffs.  I think we're sitting
    pretty good here, but who knows?
    
    Pete

Nate had 10 pts (2 for 3 for 3-pointers) and 10 assists as Seattle beat
Minnesota 126-116. 

TTom

    The awesome Sonics frontline showed last night how weak the Warriors
    are up front.  You can't go very far in the playoffs with no beef up front.
    
    Mike

    
    Cleveland - Seattle... that's what I said before the playoffs started.
    GO Cavs/Sonics.

    The Stupors indeed played a great game Thursday night.  I was down
    in Palo Alto on a business trip and watched it down there with the
    GS announcers.  What a couple of homer clowns.  I sure hope the 
    Sonic announcers don't sound that idiotic to non-Sonic fans.
    
    I looked at that game as Kemp's arrival to the big time.  He played
    under control and dominated the game.  There was no signs of his
    previous out-of-control style at all.  Karl had a great game plan to
    neutralize Mullen and Hardaway.
    
    Nelson came back with a plan of his own on Saturday.  Mario Elie went
    wild in the third quarter, and the Warriors cleaned up on the boards.
    It was the GS team I expected to see on Thursday.  
    
    The Eunichs still have home court advantage.  They will have to play
    very well to win the series, though.  I think GS is a better team, and
    is certainly capable of handling the Supes in Seattle.
    
    I'm probably going to the game on Thursday.  If they can get by GS,
    look for them in the Western Conf. finals.  They should be able to beat
    Utah in the semis.
    
    Pete

    I'll be surprised if this doesn't go 5 games, but I'd love to see
    Seattle win it.
    
    Mike

Karl blew that 2nd game. He shouldda realized that his small lineup was 
getting their doors blown off by Golden state's small lineup and brought
Benjamin,cage and Kemp all back in at once. Then they shouldda pounded the
ball inside instead of trying long range jumpers and watching GS blow by them
on the fast break....

Is that Hardaway a little water bug or what? He's gotta be faster with the
ball than anybody except KJ and that would be a close battle.


Metz

I messed up bigtime and missed the Sonics-GState game that was on TNT Saturday.
Now, no TV unless they advance. (Maybe the Saturday 5/2 game will be on NBC?)

Was this Kemp-Lister altercation really the turning point in game 2, as the NY
press describes it? 

I see that McKey fouled out in game 2. I guess Mullin did it to him.

THe Sonics haved fared this well w/o EJ or Pierce lighting up the joint? I look
for one of them to step up in 2nite's game. 


Brian

Tonights game will be on TNT for those of you farther than 35 miles away from
seattle....You must be at least that ,eh Brian?

Look for Karl to go with a big lineup of Big Ben and Kemp right from the start.
Look for Kemp to go to the line a lot now that the game is back here and the
officials favor the Sonics a bit. 

I have a feeling that this one is going to be a pretty ugly game with Seattle
trying to pound it in down low and GS trying to clamp down on anything that 
moves to try and negate their height disadvantage. 

Metz
 

    Whatta game!!!  It took some searching, but I finally was able to see
    the game last night.  First, I called a local sports bar, and they 
    indeed were showing the game.  I went there an hour early, but the
    place was packed, and there was no hope of seeing it there.  I was with
    my boss, who's a big b-ball fan and was visiting from Nashua.  We 
    decided to go to my house and split the $24 pay-per-view charge.  I
    got through to them, but found I lacked the "addressable converter
    box" to get PPV.  But, the guy on the phone told me about another bar
    close to my house that was showing the game.  We rushed down there
    and got the last two seats in the place.  People in front of us left
    and we got front seats.  We were set.
    
    The game was fantastic.  The Supes led most of the way, with very
    balanced scoring.  McKey was phenomenal, 12-14 from the field.  Barros
    hit three straight threes in the second quarter.  They led by 11 with
    about 4 minutes to go.  Golden State put on a big run, helped by a few
    bonehead Sonic moves, to erase the lead with a minute and a half to go.
    The led by one, and I figured it was all over.  The turning point of
    the game was a very risky lob pass from Payton to Kemp on a break. 
    Kemp leaped to get it an SLAMMED it in.  The place I was at went nuts.
    GS took the lead back with 7 seconds to go with a nice toss off the 
    board by Owens.  McMillan tossed the ball to Kemp and he headed to the
    hoop.  Hardaway grabbed him, since he would have had a layin or dunk on
    the play.  Kemp made both free throws.  GS had the ball with 6 seconds
    to go but couldn't get a shot off.  Marculonis tossed one up as time 
    expired, but it was late and was off the front of the rim anyway.
    
    The Sonics shot 61.5%, dominated the boards, and got great games from
    Payton, Kemp and McKey.  Pierce and EJ hit a number of tough shots. 
    GS was playing great defense all game, and the Sonics' shooting % is
    a tribute to their offense.  Kemp scored the last 9 Sonic points,
    including 6 crucial, clutch free throws in a row.  This series has
    erased all of my doubts about Kemp's ability to improve his game and
    raise himself to the superstar level.  
    
    The game was close due to GS's advantages in turnovers and trips to the
    line.  They played a very good game, with Mullin hitting all his open
    shots and Owens playing a great game.  Hardaway still hasn't really had
    a great game yet.  
    
    An editorial comment: PPV SUCKS!  The bar owner passed out flyers that
    said the Sonics wouldn't let him show any more home games unless he
    paid them $10/seat.  And, since he's not a nightclub, the city won't
    allow him to charge a cover charge to pay the Sonics' extortion money.
    And, I can't get the f*&^%#g games at home.  Thanks, Sonics.  This is
    a great way to build fan goodwill.
    
    I got tickets for Thurs night's game.  I hope they don't make it as
    close at last night's.  I don't think I can stand another one of those.
    
    Pete

>    The turning point of
>    the game was a very risky lob pass from Payton to Kemp on a break. 
>    Kemp leaped to get it an SLAMMED it in.  The place I was at went nuts.

    That sure was an awesome play!  After Kemp make the free throw to put
    the Sonics up by 3, I thought they had it, but GS got some life when
    Seattle somehow managed to let the shot clock run out.
    
>    GS had the ball with 6 seconds
>    to go but couldn't get a shot off.  Marculonis tossed one up as time 
>    expired, but it was late and was off the front of the rim anyway.
    
    When Marculonis shot, it looked liked it went in from the TV angle -
    and I think it was before the buzzer, too!  I don't why Hardaway didn't
    take the shot - he would've had a pretty good shot from around the top
    of the key before he passed to Mullin.
    
    Joe
 

    Yeah I saw that Kemp alley-oop on the news highlights.  Awesome play!
    
    Mike

    Hey Pete,
    
    You know, your right regarding this pay-per-view garbage during the
    playoffs.  I figure it's Ackerley's payback for not letting him have a
    new stadium.  I hate to say it but I see the Sonics leaving Seattle in a
    few years.
    
    First the Ms problems, then weve got the Sonic's problem.  I figure
    soon the UW will pull up roots a skip town too.
    
    RE> Kemp, this kid is phenominal!!!!!  And to think if he was in
    college he would only be a Senior.  SSSUUUUPPEEERRRRSSSTTTAAAARRR!!
    
    
    Steve

    Steve, I hope you're wrong about the Sonics.  I don't think they are
    in any danger of leaving right now, but who knows?  The city sure isn't
    helping the situation.  They basically blocked Ackerley's attempt to
    build a new arena at his own expense.  The politicians in this area
    have some strange ideas about the local big league teams.  They behave
    as if they're lucky we let them play here, rather than viewing them
    as an economic benefit, which they are.
    
    Back to the games: it's do-or-die time tonight.  I don't think the
    Sonics would win a game 5 in Oakland.  They have to play a great game
    tonight to win.  The Sonics held GS to 20 rebounds, they shot 61.5%,
    Mullin and Hardaway had sub-par games, and they won by a single point.
    They need to figure out a way to stop Marculonis and hope that Mullin
    and/or Hardaway don't have a great game.  They also need to cut way
    down on the turnovers, which almost lost them the game Tuesday.
    
    If they do get by GS, look for them to beat Utah in the semis.  They
    had the Jazz's number during the regular season, administering 2 of
    Utah's 4 home losses.
    
    Go, Supes!
    
    Pete

    Sonics win!!!!!
    
    REK
    
    

It was a nailbiter but the Supes held off the Warriors, thanks to a big 4th
quarter by Gary Payton, in which he *used* Tim Hardaway in the lane with
turnaround jumpers on several succesive trips. Then "the other kid" hits a
couple of big free throws in the closing seconds to put the Supes out of reach.
Payton really earned his money this night.
A relatively quiet game by Kemp, except on the boards. Maybe he's saving
himself for the Mailman!

Brian

    The Supes followed their script for all of their wins this series.
    They had a good-sized lead, lost it in a hurry, and came back to win.
    They had GS by 9 with 5:45 left.  GS ran off 10 straight to take the
    lead with about 4:00.  Pierce then made a huge 3-point play on a drive
    to the hoop.  Payton put it away with 2 free throws with about 26 
    seconds left.
    
    GS's free throw shooting did them in.  They were 25-39.  Hardaway was
    8-15.  He was also 8-29 from the field, including 3-13 threes.  
    
    Kemp had 19 points in the first half, but finished with only 21.  But,
    he had 20 rebounds.  Payton was the real pleasant surprise.  He kept 
    them in the game with several nice inside moves.  His two late free
    throws were about as pressure-packed as they get.  I almost couldn't
    watch.  I was sure he'd miss at least one.  But, he is really coming
    of age in the playoffs.  
    
    Bring on the Jazz!
    
    Pete

    Amazing ... I thought G.S. would upset Portland then Chicago, but
    Seattle grew up fast. Congrats.
    
    Kemp didn't look quiet to me ! 21 points, 20 boards. And E.J. and
    McMillen deserve kudos as well.
    
    Bad shooting did in the Warriors, Mullin was 7-18 (?), and Hardaway **8
    for 29** ...awful ....

    Suns & Sonics conference final in a rematch of '78!

    Doc M, it was worse than that.  Mullin was 4-12, 0 rebounds, 1
    assist in 35 minutes.  He said after the game he had wrenched his
    back in the first quarter, and had a sore left achilles and heel.
    
    McMillan was 2 ribbies away from a triple double in only 21 minutes.
    
    Kemp had 25 offensive boards in the series, trailing only Moses
    Malone's 27 in a 4-game series.
    
    Pete
    

    First Upset posted in the Playoffs this year, congrats.  ALthough
    dont pack your bags for Utah just yet.  Its down to 1 game for the
    Jazz tonight at home VS the LA Clippers.  Could end up with seattle
    have home court Vs the Clippers in Round 2....:-)
    
    								M.Air.B

    The Jazz are the NBA's best home team (and are almost opposite on the
    road).  The Clippers aren't very good on the road.
    
    The Sonics will eliminate the Jazz in 6.

>    The Jazz are the NBA's best home team 
    

 It's easy to see why. If Malone can get that many calls away from home he
 must be untouchable at home. If they ever called offense fouls like they
 should he wouldn't last till the second half. He's a good player but way
 over-rated IMO due to Stockton and the refs...

 mike

    Malone also has the led the league in FTA's for a few years now.  I've
    seen him in many Suns games where he has more FTA's then the whole
    Phoenix team.
    
    Mike

      Mike,  doesn't Utah have to win tonight in order to play Seattle?  I
    don't see them losing,  but ya never know.  I picked the Clip because
    they were doing good at the end of the regular.
    
    	Tim

Karl Malone draws alot of fowls for a few reasons.  First, he spends his
life in the paint.  Second, he expands his body under the basket better
than anyone I remember.  If you want to stop him, you pretty much are
guaranteed to fowl him.  And finally, John Stockton is skilled at putting
the ball in Malone's hands if there is the remotest chance of contact.  

You can say it's the refs all you want, but the fact of the matter is that
if he's led the league in FTA for the past 3 years, might as well just give
him credit for doing it better than anyone else in the league.

j. (masquerading as SYSTEM)

    	...and if you read the article about the Mailman in last week's
    S.I. you would know he is a big WWF fan, which naturally helps him
    with his ability to act and get to the line.
    
    				/Don

 Jeff,

	I agree with your points especially about Stockton but atleast three
 times yesterday he had a clear path to the rack and jumped into a stationary
 player two feet away from him and got the call. When someone's on him like
 glue I expect him to get the call  wether he initiates the contact or not
 but when he goe two feet out his way and initiates the contact I got draw the
 line and say offensive.

 mike

    Well, Mike, I guess what irritates you about Malone is what I like so
    much.  He plays the game with spunk.  I like his aggressiveness and
    ability to get the job done.  Can't blame him for trying to the 3
    instead of 2!
    
    j.

    doesn't matter anyway, Seattle will eliminate Utah.

 good point Jeff about looking for 3 instead of 2, but that comes back to
 who the refs favor and who they don't. I liked Malone alot as a rookie,
 I thought he got screwed when they gave the ROY to Ewing. As you say he
 played then when alot of Spunk and he still does but he hasn't developed
 into all around player IMO. Hence I feel he's gone from underrated to
 overrated simply because of offensive stats.

 mike

    I don't think the Sonics will concentrate on stopping Malone.  They
    had their success this year by shutting down Stockton.  They can't
    afford to put Kemp on Malone.  He'd foul out in 5 minutes.
    
    I think they'll alternate Payton and McMillan on Stockton (and maybe
    McKey.  Karl experimented with him on Hardaway against GS).  Without
    Stockton, Malone is like Vanessa Williams without her producer.  
    
    The first two games are Wed and Fri at Utah.  Sunday and Tues are in
    Seattle.  Sunday's should be on national TV.  
    
    Pete

    Stockton is overrated ... if I monopolized the ball as much as he did,
    I'd average 200 assists a game too ...
    
    Moreover, it shows in the playoffs - hell, if John-Boy was a NFL QB,
    he'd complete 45 passes a game - for 300 yards. If he was a ML
    ballplayer, Dan Schneider would go crazy discussing park effects.
    
    Doc

Sorry Doc, I gotta differ with you on this one.

First of all, one of the reasons Stockton has the ball a lot is that he
led the league in steals, about 3 a game. Throw in about 3 RBs a game -
not bad for a guard - and you start to get the picture.

Oh yeah, he owns about every assist record except career total which
he's on his way to owning as well.

TTom

Who else would take the ball?  Eaton?  He wouldn't know what to do with it. 
Karl Malone?  He can't hold it more than 3 seconds without shooting or being
fouled.  Jeff Malone?  I've never seen him hold the ball for more than 1 second
without heaving it up.

What you call ball hogging I see as superb ability to run the game.  His
passing is magical - he always makes the perfect pass to the appropriate person
at the exact right time.  That's why he gets so many assists, not because he's
a ball hog.  

But you're free to watch whatever you'd like.  Just seems a shame not to watch
this spectacular ball player, a man who will be known as one of the best point
guards in the history of the NBA.

j.

j.

    Doc's just mad because Stockton will break Magic's records.

    re .260
    
    Way to catch on Mike (but don't tell anyone) ...
    
    As far as Magic goes, if that was his style (and if he was the only
    guard on the Lakers- remember Nixon and Cooper ?), he could have
    averaged 15 apg easy ...
    
    I want to see how long Stockton can go on without a title, and not get
    hit with the same criticism that Isiah took (who had a ton of assists
    too through the '86 season)... I saw another year or two ...

    
    
    That text should read "Magic > Stockton | Boggs, BYU QB's, R&S QB's"
    
    There is no doubt that Magic is better player than Stockton.  Magic
    is one of the greatest of all time... but in my opinion, its also
    ridiculous to say that John Stockton is over-rated.  The guy can
    dish the ball, he can hit the 3, he can penetrate.  He plays like
    Mark Price.  He has all the tools and he hustles.  He's also always
    among the league leaders in steals.  He does what a point guard is
    supposed to do AND he makes the team better.

    attaway to redirect the fire, doc.

    
    re: Stockton
    
    	To me, Stockton is a pure-point guard.  The reason why he handles
    the ball so much is because that is what a real point guard should do;
    run the team.
    
    	If Stockton continues at his present level, he will not only break
    Magic's assist mark, but he will leave it in the dust.  That's not 
    taking a thing away from Magic either.  
    
    	As for Stockton and the ring issue, no one ever said that Stockton
    was a great 'leader' (at least not me), nor could/can he elevate the
    play of his teammates as Magic could on both counts.  But what he can
    do is deliver the ball where and when it is needed.  Clearly, Malone
    is the team 'leader' on the Jazz where Magic was, and deservedly so,
    the leader on the Lakers.
    
    
    								bill..g.

    (Stockton) plays like Price ....
    
    A little biased ? eh ?
    
    Seriously, I'd take Price first between the two ... and I really don't
    have a problem with Stockton, but if there is a more subjective stat
    than assists, I haven't found it. The point being, he can rack up 20 a
    game - which he will because no one else handles the ball -  and the
    Jazz will never see a ring unless they get lucky - or find a way to
    take the ball out of his hands more often.
    
    The Lakers had the same problem last year. For all of Magic's greatness
    (and yes Magic > Bird *10 :-), the Lakers went to hell in a handbasket
    when he went to the bench, or was not in sync. Too much of the offense
    ahd to flow through him. I wish they had had Threatt last year, they
    would have beaten the Bulls, probably inside of 6 games.
    
    The Jazz won't win until Stockton (or the front office to be more
    accurate) realizes that less is more ...

Keep on stirring, Doc.

And good luck on talking the Jazz into the "less is more" theory with
Stockton. I suppose you wish Karl Malone wouldn't take all of those free
throws, too?

I wonder what we'd come up with if we applied this logic to Kevin
Johnson?

TTom

�    Seriously, I'd take Price first between the two ... and I really don't
�    have a problem with Stockton, but if there is a more subjective stat
�    than assists, I haven't found it. 
    
    From my understanding of the definition of assists (which I've gotten
    from reading some of Mr. Nazzaro, Celtics' statistician, notes) there
    is nothing subjective at all about an assist.  An assist occurs on a
    pass which directly leads to a basket.  In order for the assist to
    count, the person getting the pass has to put the shot up.  The pass
    can't be tipped, the person catching the pass can't dribble/penetrate
    first.  Only 1 assist is given per basket.

    Doc's obsfucating and oscullating cause  he picked Golden St. to win it 
    all so he can enter the Supersonics topic without a lot of crow... 

    
    I prefer Price over Stockton (and that's probably bias), but I also
    think there's not much of a difference.  
    
    As far as the Jazz not winning a title, I hardly think that is the
    fault of KMalone, JMalone or Stockton.  They need some players around
    them and a center...  its basically the same rap put on Jordan.  Once
    they were able to build a team around him, the championship came.  It
    proves that regardless of how good one player is, that player still
    needs other quality teammates.

    Oscillate this Walt ...
    
    re Mac,
    
    Assists can be played with Mac. Once the NBA office picked up an
    occasion when a player got 2 assists when he was on the bench. Some
    teams (Buffalo in the Ernie D. era) will give an assist to a guy who
    throws a pass to player B, who then fakes, dribbles, fakes, and then
    makes the basket. Go figure ...

    	If Doc figures that Magic is 10 times greater than Bird because
    of a 5 to 3 advantage in titles, imagine how much greater Russell
    was than Wilt given an 11-1 title advantage?  8^o
    
    				/Don

Back to the series coming up....

I think the Sonics have too many weapons for the Jazz. The sonics have been
successfull against the Jazz by burying Stockton in Bodies. Expect Payton,
McKey and MacMillen to all play him and play him tight. Expect Benjamin, and
cage to play K malone to keep Kemp out of foul trouble....

Sonics in 6 is my prediction.....Sonics take 1 of 2 in Utah, then sweep at
home, lose at Utah and win it all back home....

Hopefully I'll be at the game this sunday if my buddy got tickets....Pete 
Crouch will be sucking up to the In-laws and trying to catch the game on TV....

The benefits of living 3000 miles away from family often outweigh the holidays
without them :-)


Metz
 

    Hey, HEY!  That's my sainted mother you're talking about there, Metz
    8^)  (the in-laws are on Saturday).   I'll probably be at Tuesday's 
    game while you're learning how to breathe at birthin' class.
    
    Last night's game was a disappointment for Stupors' fans.  They never
    got clicking at all.  Pathetic perimeter defense cost them big.  They
    did what I said they wouldn't - tried to stop Karl Malone.  In doing
    that, they conceded the 15-18 foot jumpers, which Jeff Malone and
    Stockton knocked down all night.  A big 6 minute scoring drought to
    start the 3rd, and a similar one to start the 4th, did them in.  Also,
    Pierce was inexplicably absent most of the night.  He was 2-8 from the
    field until he heated up when the game was out of reach.
    
    George Karl is blaming the 6 day layoff.  I don't know if that's valid,
    but they didn't look sharp at all.  No hustle on D.  Not to worry,
    though.  Utah played very well, Seattle played pretty badly, and they
    still had a chance to win.  They only need to win one in Utah.  Maybe
    Friday.
    
    Pete

    It happens too many times for Karl to be wrong.  Extended layoffs are
    lethal to hot teams.
    
    Mike

    In the first two games, the Supes picked a bad time to suddenly
    go cold.  They looked like the old KC Jones Sonics.  Pierce was only
    scoring 10 or 12.  Payton was invisible.
    
    They pulled out a W yesterday in Seattle.  It wasn't exactly easy,
    though.  They still have to play better to win this series.  Pierce
    finally came alive, Benjamin played well, and it became apparent that
    Dana Barros and his deadly three pointer needs to be used more.
    
    Pete

It was a great game to be at yesterday, Pete :-)

Benoit played some of the most inspired ball I've ever seen him do. He played
some great defense on K. Malone in the 4th quarter. Gang tackling him to the
floor once to make sure Malone wouldn't get the shot off and fronting him once
and stealing the ball. He owned Eaton in the paint and should see a lot of 
playing time over the rest of the series. 

I was very happy with the way Karl used Barros in this game. Everybody expected
Barros to get yanked as soon as he missed his first three. Karl let him in and
even ran the offense through him for a while. Then he came up big with some 3's.

Pierce finally got hot. Somebody decided to run some isolation plays for him
and get him into the game instead of trying to run jumpers off of picks all 
the time. Once he got into the flow he was immense.

The sonics really started to get hot after they decided to run off of made 
baskets. The inbounds pass was going right to pierce and he was sprinting up
the floor and getting the Jazz a little winded. 

Gary Payton made a few good steals but he still can't run a 1/2 court offense.
The 1/2 court game improved considerably once Nate started to run it. Gary has
a real tough time finding guys down low. 

Kemp was a non - factor. He got into foul trouble early and played timid for
much of the rest of the game. 

John Stockton can play on any team I ever put together. Calling him overrated is
a huge disservice. He runs the whole offense and whenever the sonics backed
of of him he stopped and nailed the J. The fans were pumped when he finally 
missed a shot. He didn't get much chance to drive the hoop yesterday but has
shown he can do it with ease.....He's a pure all-star in my book.

Karl Malone is still the most protected player in the NBA. He is assured a trip
to the foul line anytime he drives toward the basket. He camps out in the paint
(at least 5 seconds every time down the floor) and gets away with murder down 
low. I counted 3 100% pure charges against him yesterday that weren't called.

Sonics should get away from the double team defense and play straight 
mano-a-mano defense. Almost everytime they ried to trap yesterday they got burnt
by leaving somebody open for either a 12 foot Jumper or several times they left
eaton wide open under the hoop. Even a stiif like Eaton can jam the ball home.
They weren't getting any steals off the trap. They have the talent to play
Utah straight up (although doubling Malone down low would be smart still).

All in all a good game....Have fun tuesday Pete. Did you get to watch it on TV
or were you still closer than 35 miles?

Metz
 
  

    Metz, 'fraid I wasn't out of the blackout area.  I had to listen to
    the game.  I can't believe tomorrow's isn't on the tube, either.  I
    might try to get PPV for it.
    
    I try not to comment on the officiating, but I agree about Malone.
    Kemp gets absolutely hammered, no call.  Malone gets touched, tweet!
    All the early fouls in Utah took the Sonics out of their game.  The
    sheer number of illegal D calls on the Sonics is ridiculous, too.
    Eaton is a one man zone the entire game, standing like a statue in the
    lane with his arms up like he was taught in 7th grade.  He isn't
    guarding anybody, but I've never seen him get called.
    
    Another thing I can't believe is these games aren't selling out.  There
    were a few empty seats yesterday, right, Metz?  
    
    Pete  

It sure looked sold out to me....

I'm going hoarser by the minute after screaming my head off yesterday.

Eaton did get called for an illegal D yesterday. Then the refs had to even up
the count by calling one on Seattle. In the 4th Utah got nabbed for another
Illegal D to give the Sonics a T shot. Next trip down the floor the refs
do a make up call and call Seattle for an illegal D...I dunno who they called it
on but the D looked legit to me....

Looking for another standout effort by Big Ben,


Metz
 

    Paper said there were 100 seats not sold for the game.
    
    I looked at the box score from Sunday's game.  Very strange.  The 
    Supes only shot 43%, the Jazz 54%, but the Sonics won.  The Sonics
    actually went to the line more than Utah.  Never thought I'd see that.
    McKey was horrible, 0-6 from the field.  Kemp didn't do much, either,
    but he was hampered by a bad eye after getting Malone's finger in it
    during the previous game.
    
    During the Golden State series, almost everyone played well.  During
    this series, there are usually a few guys having very bad games, yet
    they've been competitive in all of them.  I suppose Utah's defense 
    deserves some credit.  I'd sure like to see the well-oiled Supes
    machine from the GS series return.  
    
    Pete

The paper predicts that the Eunichs will stay with a more man-to-man defense
in this game. Even the idiot sportswriters noticed that double teaming stockton
out by the key was killing the sonics.

Benjamin will play major minutes against Malone. Hopefully he'll stay out of
foul trouble. 

Look for Barros to get some decent minutes again. Look for Payton to play 
less than the 23 minutes he got Sunday if he can't get the offense in gear.

Post Kemp up on eaton and let him shred the stiff for 30....

Look for Malone to steam roller his way into the paint everytime he gets the
ball and got to the line 15-20 times....


Metz
  

    Well, Metz, I got to see the game after all.  At 6:45 last night, one
    of my buddies in Marysville called an said his dad has a big screen
    with a sattelite dish, so I headed up there.  I should have stayed
    home.  Ugly, ugly game.  The Stupors looked incredibly sluggish in
    their half-court offense.  It was a defensive battle all the way.
    
    The Stupes had a golden opportunity in the 4th, when Utah started out
    0-8 from the field.  The Sonics responded by going 2-11.  Nobody
    stepped forward to take control for them.  Jeff Malone couldn't miss
    and was the big reason Utah won.  Karl Malone had his second straight
    disappearing act in the 4th.  I haven't looked at the box score, but
    I'd guess Eddie Johnson was about 1-12 for the Sonics.  He was firing
    up bricks all night.  Yet George kept him in the game in crunch time.
    Go figure.
    
    Tough loss.  The series is effectively over.  The Sonics just never
    got it going offensively.  Utah deserves credit for that.  
    
    Pete

      So what was the score and is that it for Seattle?  I haven't been
    following this series very closely.
    
    	Tim

    Score was 89-83, or close to that.  Amazing it was so low.
    Utah had the best home record in the NBA this year, though Seattle did
    get on of those few wins in Utah. To expect Seattle to win 2 games in
    Utah is farfetched. I say Utah finishes off Seattle in game 5.
    
    

    Utah lost 4 at home, 2 to Seattle.  But, this series once again proves
    that the regular season means little when projecting a playoff winner.
    GS dominated Seattle in the regular season, yet Seattle wins the
    series.  Several years ago, Seattle beat Dallas in the playoffs after
    Dallas had thrashed them during the season.  
    
    I think there was alot of optimism in Seattle that they could win this
    series after their success in the regular season.  It's not over, but I
    agree that the Sonics won't win two in Utah.  Who knew a different 
    Sonics team would show up for the Utah series than for the GS series.
    I keep expecting to see KC Jones on the bench the way they're playing
    now.
    
    Pete

    Do any one you rotis players know if Eddie Johnson still qualifies as a
    G/F like he did in Phoenix?  Does he ever play guard?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

Not being a rotis man but living in Seattle I've never seen eddie play guard
since he's come to the team. He's 100% forward now.

I hope you aren't trying to  slime a high scoring forward into a guard spot...

Metz