Conference 7.286::sports_91

    First, Boo, to WJR, and not necessarily to Bo for the Ernie Harwell
    fiasco.  A real shame.
    
    Now that that's over with, let's see what the team looks like this
    year.
    
    OF: Moseby, Cuyler, Deer?
    IF: Fryman/Phillips, Trammell, Whitaker, Fielder
    C: Heath/Salas
    DH: Bergman?
    
    SP: Morris, Tanana, Gullickson, Searcy, Robinson?
    RP: Gleaton,Henneman, McCullers, Parker, ?
    
    -Walt

    McCullers is gone   released or not offered contract. My Sporting News
    indicates that Heath won't be offered a contract in most likelyhood.
    
    Morris - I think it is questionable that they can sign him and if so
    will they to a multi year type contract he wants.
    
    Cuyler- the job is his to lose.
    Phillips- has been promised more starts.  This leaves Whitaker as trade
    bait.
    
    
    wes

	Lemon and Ward are still hanging around as backup OF/DH.

	Rumors are that Heath will sign with the Braves, and that Tettleton
	will be traded to Detroit, with Robinson going to the Orioles.

	Jim M

    I thought they didn't resign Lemon.  Ward may still be there.

    Nice call, Jim.  Tettleton and Robinson were indeed traded.
    
    lEe

    <<< Note 58.1 by REFINE::ASHE "Whatever happened to Skip Stephenson?" >>>
    
    Now that that's over with, let's see what the team looks like this
    year.
    
    OF: Moseby, Cuyler, Deer
    IF: Fryman/Phillips, Trammell, Whitaker, Fielder
    C:  Tettleton
    DH: Bergman/Lemon/Ward?
    
    SP: Morris, Tanana, Gullickson, Searcy, Cerutti (signed yesterday)
    RP: Gleaton,Henneman, McCullers, Parker, ?
    
    
    I like Cerutti, I think he's a good pickup.  I would have done a
    Cerutti/Tettleton for Robinson/Heath trade in a heartbeat....
    
    -Walt
    

    If you want to cool off this summer, just go to Tiger Stadium. 
    There'll be plenty of breezes with Tettleton, Deer, and Fielder doing
    the swinging.
    
    /Ed

    OF: Schembechler
    IF: Hernandez
    C:  Gibson
    DH: Schembechler
    
    SP: Schembechler, Hernandez, Gibson
    RP: Hernandez, Gibson, Schembechler
    
    
    	There egos should cover it.
    
    -k
    
    

    Did someone grind wacky weed into my coffee this morning, or did I read
    in the paper that Jack Morris turned down a 3 year, $9 million offer
    from the Tigers in hopes of getting a better offer elsewhere?
    
    He was a fine pitcher throughout the 80s, but at this point in his
    career I question who would give Morris the $$$ he's seeking...
    
    
    py

    Paul, it was 9.3 million.  He musta been drinking wacky weed coffee.
    
     

    If Matt Young and Bud Black can get megabucks, Morris is stupid not to
    test the water.

    Yeah, but he can have it.  That was a more than generous offer.  It's
    been real Jack, hope you come back...

    
    Black is better than Morris right now... Young... well, I'd rather not
    comment on the stiff.
    

This doesn've have to do with the Tigers, but in the same subject, I 
was looking at the arbitration numbers of what players had asked for 
and what management offered.   Tom Candiotti of the Indians set his 
value for 1991 at 3.1M  while the club thought he was ONLY worth 2.1M.

What we are seeing is the beginning of the end of major league baseball.

�    Black is better than Morris right now... Young... well, I'd rather not
�    comment on the stiff.
    
    Translation:  Black played for the Indians, Young signed with the Red
    Sox.

    
    Translation:  Sox have not won a world championship since 1918,
    ignore the fact below because they prove note 58.15 to be incorrect.
    
    
                   1990                  1989         
    BLACK     13-11, 3.57, 1.171    12-11, 3.36, 1.192
    YOUNG      8-18, 3.51, 1.354     1-4 , 3.73, 1.477

    Let's see.  .06 difference in ERA, less than .2 in the third category
    (hits/inning?).  If Young is a stiff, Black is a slightly better stiff.

    
    RE: .17
    
    Yeah, you're right... they both lost the same number of games (even if
    Black did win almost three times as many). 
    
    I guess using your logic, Dave Stewart is as good or better than
    Roger Clemens...
    

�    Yeah, you're right... they both lost the same number of games (even if
�    Black did win almost three times as many). 
    
    Black also pitched for a team that had more wins overall than Seattle
    did.
    
    This is drifting off the topic and I apolgize to Tiger fans.  Further
    discussion should probably go in either the AL, Red Sox, or Indians
    topic.

Black pitched for a team that was, what, 3rd in RS in the AL?

I'd say he got quite a bit more support.

daryll

    
    Black pitched for the Indians except for the last 4 or 5 starts (MAX)
    of the 1990 season.  The Indians lost as many or more games than the
    Mariners over the period from 1989-90.  Heck, the tribe had the 2nd
    worst record in the AL in '89 and close to 100 loses... or did they
    crack 100....  and I find it hard to believe that the indians were 
    3rd in RS in the AL in '89 or '90.
    
    Bottom line... Black has been a solid 200+ inning pitcher in 3 of
    his last 4 seasons.  Young on the other hand has missed 1 1/2 - 2
    years due to injuries in the past 4 years... and some of his 
    other seasons were not very impressive (read sky-high ERA...)

    
    re .18
 
>    Dave Stewart is as good or better than Roger Clemens...
 
    It's about time you've seen the light.   

>>    Dave Stewart is as good or better than Roger Clemens...
 
>    It's about time you've seen the light.   
    
    Over the last five years, I'll give it to you.  When they tally 'em up
    at the end of the career, very doubtful.  Roger's won his 100 games
    over the last five seasons at an age when Stewart hadn't yet learned
    how to pitch and was bouncing from team to team.  What happens when 
    Clemens matures (if ever)?
    
    glenn
    

    Will you folks please blow the hot air about Clemens and Stewart et al
    in the appropriate topics.... and leave us Tiger fans/haters to discuss
    how we're gonna get along w/o Jack Morris here.
    
    Thanks,
    /Ed

    Would Morris' uncertain status perhaps increase Clay Parker's chances
    of making the rotation?
    
    
    py

    I heard this am that Morris is going to be aq Twin.

    Saw on "Silent Radio" at noon that Morris was indeed signed by the
    Twins.  In a big surprise, no financial terms were released :-)

    Let's see...
    
    Tanana, Cerutti, Searcy, Terrell and Gullickson, I would guess.

    Well, Goodby Jack, I'll miss ya.  You gave me some great thrills over
    the years.
    
    lEe

    Jack signed for one year at $3M plus two option years (his option, not
    the Twins') at $2M each.  There are performance incentives that could
    make the total value $11M.  Given the Tigers' $9.3M offer and Jack's
    declining performance in recent years, it's hard to figure why he would
    chance the move.  After all, what's a few $million between friends?
    
    /Ed

    I saw an interview with Morris last night and he said it was his
    boyhood dream to pitch for the Twins and he almost went the last time
    he was a free agent.
    
    Now he didn't want to wait any longer.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Isn't he from that area?  Seems I read that he always wanted to go back
    home to play.
    
    lEe

    Jack Morris is a native of St Paul, Mn
    
    John

    I was wondering, if someone can provide information on Milt Cuyler?
    
    Thanks,
    will

    22 years old, switch hitter.
    
    1990 @Toledo -124 gammes, .258, 2 HR, 42 RBI, 52 SB

    Just to add some more...
    461 ABs in Toledo
    
    51 ab with the the tigers, 0 hr, 8 rbis, 1 sb, .255 ba
    
    REK

    So is the CF job Cuyler's to lose or what?
    
    
    py

    I'd say so...

    Game updates are being posted in the Yankees' conference,
    DSSDEV::YANKEE (see the last few replies of note 38).  Last note posted
    there has it 5-2 NY in the 4th; Incaviglia has a 2-run HR, Roberto
    Kelly has all five RBI for the Yanks.
    
    
    py

Re: .-1

Tigers won that one 11-5, then turned around and dropped two to the
Palehose by identical scores of 4-1.  Luckily, Sunday's game was washed out.

Looks like most of the prognosticators got it right -- the Tigers will
probably lead the league in HRs, Ks, and ERA ([most] Earned Runs Allowed).

/Ed

    
    Tigers blast the pale hose in the opener at the new Comisky park
    16 - 0.  Fielder 1 hr, Deer 2 2 run shots, Phillips hr.  Tigers
    pound out 19 hits.
    
    On a side note.
    
    Bo (who don't know baseball) Schembechler is rumoured to be having
    a press conference to discuss the new tiger stadium.  The stadium will
    still be in Detroit just north of the existing site.  The rumour that
    has my blood boiling is that the stadium will be named:
    
    Coleman A. Young stadium.
    
    \pjb

>>Coleman A. Young stadium.

  Who is Coleman A. Young?

  Some stiff?????

Enquiring and all that bs......

'Saw

    Coleman Young is the mayor of Detroit. Has been for 16 (?) years.
    
    Responsible for a lot of events in Motown, good and not so good ...
    
    And I expect this will certainly divide people in Detroit.
    
    But I'm glad that they are finally keeping a staidum in the city, and
    instead of running out to the damn suburbs ....
    
    Doc

Oh, ok....

I saw him on television last time I was out there.  'Course the last time
I was out there was the day after Devil's night or whatever they call
that night where everyone tries their damndest to emulate what Mrs O'Leary's
cow started in Chicago....

Just never knew his name....


'Saw

    I'm not all that familiar with the situation in Detroit, but I dunno
    about naming a stadium after a politician. Like a couple of notes ago
    said, he was responsible for both good and bad things, and I'm sure is
    both loved and hated in near-equal numbers. 
    
    Why not name it after a great former Tiger from the past, like Al Kaline or
    Hank Greenberg or Ty Cobb or Jim Walewinder? :-)
    
    Tom

   What the hell happened to the White Sox?
   They start out like a house afire... go 6 - 0, then they drop 10-1 to
   the Yankmes, and 16-0 to Detriot! Sounds like some Voodoo shit to me.

   Mike JN

    
    
    
    Why not  Ernie Harwell Stadium???
    
    Wes

    How's about The Bird House after Fidrych?
    
    MikeL
    

Oh, I forgot.  There's one already in New Jersey.

/Ed 8^)

    Wes, good to see you in here again.  Where've you been?
    
    lEe

     I've been readin but the job has gotten busier so I can't input as
    often. 
    
    Tiger's blew a perfect chance to sweep the ChiSox when Deer dropped a
    fly ball in the 9th that would have been the third out. The Sox tied
    it on the error and won on a later hit.  Good pitching from Gullickson
    was wasted. Fielder hit another homer. 
    
    Saturday they won 2-1 in 12 innings. Terrell pitched well. Bullpen has
    been tough as they were last year.
    
    On to NY.
    
    Did anyone see the spelling on Andy Allanson's uniform Saturday.
    
    DETRIOT......next at bat it was  DETROIT.
    
    Wes

    I don't know if the game was on my cable system, we lost it early Sun
    afternoon because of the storm.
    
    Was Deer's error on a routine play?
    
    lEe

    
    
    Looked pretty routime. He did have to run a little but not real far.
    The sun was in his eyes.  At this time from what I have seen, his
    fielding has been shakey at times. He has overrun a few balls and has 2
    errors so far. And I think he could have been given a third on another
    play I saw. Anyway IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CAUGHT.
    
    Wes

    Deer should have had that ball...
    
    Tigers, despite losing are still 1 game out, and tied with the Sox...
    We'll see if that series in October means anything yet...
    
    On to Yankee Stadium...
    
    I'm glad the new stadium is in Detriot(tm) and not outside somewhere.
    I'd take a gamble and name it Denny McLain stadium, but Young stadium
    would suck.  Why not Tiger Stadium?  They play there.. Walewander?  Why
    name it for someone in the Yankee organization?
    
    Gates Brown Stadium?                Mayo Smith Stadium?
    
    Sparky Anderson Stadium...          Dalton Jones stadium?
    

    Quote of the Day (without permission from USA Today):
    
    "He's such a nice guy, a great kid.  After I got to know hin, I told
    him to his face, 'I thought you were a jerk.'"
    
    Sparky ANderson, on outfielder Pete Incaviglia

    Where is who?  Duggleby?  Who is he, and why are you stealing my p-name
    theme?
    
    Inky is in Detriot, proving he's not a wimp like Bonny Valentine...

    sorry walt, i couldnt resist... First one to answer gets a  FREE
    1991 fredericks of hollywood  calender
    
    dinz
    

    Tigers score *5* in the ninth to beat the Yankmees 10-5.
    
    Yep, we're probably gonna give up a lot of runs this year, but we're
    sure gonna score some, too.
    
    lEe,
    who_doesn't_give_a_damn_where_Duggleby_is,_but_would_love_to_have_the
    _calendar  :*)
    

    Anyone besides me see Tettleton's HR?  He hit one almost halfway up the
    upper deck in right in Yankee Stadium....whooooa nellie!
    
    
    py

    
    re. -1
    
    I missed Tettleton's homer but I saw Fryman's in the 4th and Deer's in
    the 9th.  Fryman's went over the left center field fence and Deer's
    went over the right center field fence.   Awesome!!
    
    \pjb

    Tettleton's was about 10 rows up in the 3rd deck... much more
    impressive than Cecil trying Barfield's arm stretching a single
    to a double... and getting nailed by about 10-15 feet...

    Searcy had a terrible outing from the line score.  Less than 2 innning
    pitched (  1 1/3 I think), 4 walks and 5 runs. He has been shakey in
    his last 2 starts. Gives up to many walks. Trying to pitch himself out
    of a weak rotation.
    
    Wes

�    Did anyone see the spelling on Andy Allanson's uniform Saturday.
    
�    DETRIOT......next at bat it was  DETROIT.
    
�    Wes

	...and I dont't get any royalties?  8^(

    re .63
    
    Walt, did Cecil pull a Willie Stargell and call timeout halfwat to
    second base ? :-)
    
    re .65
    
    Slasher, *I* hold the patent, so move on before I get upset ...

    	Somebody help me slap Doc 00:00 upside the haid with the troof!
    I own the DETRIOT�.  Go think up your own Doc and stop stealing
    other folks �'s
    
    				/Don

If it's any help Slasher, I seem to remember you coming up with that
little gem.....

Perhaps Mike JN could help, as he has been the Maintainer Pro Tem of the
TM Note.....

'Saw

re Detriot(tm)

	See Note 21.1, the "D" section....

    I don't care ... ask Walt ! He's a native, he'll tell you ....

    Slasher was the first won to spell it Detriot (tm) on purpose... Doc
    didn't know any better, thought it was a bandwagon and rollerbladed his
    way on... haha...

    Geez, no notes in here since April?  Gotta put something in.
    
    2 games out?  Still can't believe that one.  Sorry Jack isn't
    around, but the people who laughed about all the power and runs
    being produced won't work because of the K's can't really say that
    now.  If only they had a decent pitcher.  I don't count Gullickson,
    his ERA's too high... just good run support.
    
    -Walt

    Any pitchers at Toledo that may be able to help out come Sept. 1?
    
    
    py

       
    
    Hi Walt, how are you doing. I don't get much time to participate in
    these notes anymore but I do have some time tonight.
    
    As fas a pitchers for Sept 1 callup I have read that Sparky likes	
    Greg Gohr and Kurt Knudsen. Gohr is a starter in Toledo who was their	
    #1 pick in 1989. He had some injury problems after signing. He is a 
    righthander with a good fast ball who can throw a change for strikes.
    
    As of AUG 8
    W-L  ERA   GS   CG   IP   H   BB  SO                    .
    8-6  4.62  21    2  123  102  52  84
    
    Knudsen is in Toledo (AAA). He appears to be a righthanded reliever.
    I don't have much info on him at this time.
    
    These are stats from AA London.
    W-L   ERA   G   GS   CG   IP   H   BB   SO  SV
    2-3   3.55  33   0    0   51  40   30   54   6                   
    
    I would not be surprised to see John Desilva get a shot. He is a
    righthander starter at Toledo. He was their #8 in 1989. His fastball
    is rated slightly above major league average and is effective because
    of its movement. He has a hard late breaking slider that can be
    devastating.
    
    W-L   ERA   G    IP      H   BB   SO
    3-3   4.68. 8   42 1/3   46  15   39
    
    Also the signed a left hander who pitched in the Brewers and Indians
    organization, Jeff Kaiser. He is a relief pitcher and last year was
    with the Sky Sox. I got to see him pitch and he was very effective at
    the AAA level but not quite as effective with the Indians.
    

     Tigers signed outfielder John Moses. He formerly played with the
    Twins and this season at AAA Colorado Springs. He is fast and can play
    all outfield positions. He also played 1st and I believe 3rd for the
    Sky Sox. So far he isn't hitting much.
    
      Did anyone see the homer they took away from Cecil in NY due to fan
    interference. It looked as if it was about 1 row back. The fan had his
    hands in the way and Meulens (I think) couldn't make the play. Cecil
    was called out. I looked like a real bad call. It didn't effect the
    final outcome of the game.
    
      Shelby has been released. Charly Kerfeld (Former ASTRO) is playing
    in London.
    
      Tigers have the best home record but are miserable on the road.
    They have actuall gotten some good pitching performances the last 2
    weeks. Along with some terrible ones.

        Well Jeff Kaiser was called up and Scott Livingstone was sent down
    to Toledo to make room for him. Livingstone was hitting .333.
    
    Wes

    Fan interference resulted in out for the *visiting* team?  OK all you
    home town fans.  Next time a ball is smacked into the bleachers by a
    visiting player, make sure to get in your fielder's way.

 Here is Detroit Tiger's radio announcer Ernie Harwell's definition of baseball
written in 1955.


Baseball is a president tossing out the first ball of the season,
and a scrubby schoolboy playing catch with his dad on the Mississippi farm.

A tall thin old man waving a scorecard from the corner of his dugout.
That's baseball.

So is a big fat guy with a bulbous nose running home one of his 714 homeruns.

Baseball is a spirited race of man against man, reflex against reflex, a 
game of inches. Every skill is measured, every heroic, every failing seen and
cheered, or booed, and then becomes a statistic.

In baseball democracy shines its clearest. 

The only race that matters is a race to the bag.

Its creed is a rulebook and color merely something to distinguish one
teams uniform from another.

Baseball is a rookie, his experience no bigger that the lump in his throat, as 
he begins fulfillment of his dream.

It's a veteran too, a tired old man of 35, hoping those aching muscles can pull
him through another sweltering August and September.

Baseball, just a game, as simple as a ball and bat and yet as complex as the 
American spirit it symbolizes. Its a sport, a business, sometimes almost even
religion.

Why the fairy tale of Willie Mays making a brilliant World Series catch and 
then dashing off to play stickball with his teenage pals. That's baseball

And so is the husky voice of a doomed Lou Gehrig saying "I consider myself the
luckiest man on the face of this earth"

Baseball is cigar smoke, hot roasted peanuts, ladies day, down in front, take 
me out to the ball game, the seventh inning stretch, and the Star Spangled 
Banner

Baseball is a man named Campanella telling the nation's business leaders "You 
have to be a man to be a big leaguer, but you have to have a lotta little boy 
in you to". 

This is a game for America this baseball, a game for boys and for men.
    
    
    Wes

    Wes, that reminds me of why I used to really love baseball.  Not like
    that in today's world.
    
    Hmmm, tied for 1st with the Jays.  Not bad for a team picked to finish
    near or at the bottom.  And one that was to play without a pitching
    staff, too.   :*)
    
    What's the team record for HR's in a season?
    
    lEe

    Re -1
    
    Cecil's homer on Saturday tied last years total. Not sure what it was.
    Not sure about the team record. I will find out and post it later this
    week.
    
    Wes

       Haven't been able to come up with the team record for homers. I
    thought it would be in one of my programs, yearbooks or papers from
    Detroit , but I have been unable to find it.
    
    wes

                       
    The 1987 Detroit Tigers hit 225 homers in the year of the rabbit
    ball, which was only 15 shy of the major-league record 240 by the 
    New York Yankees of 1961.  At last check (through last Wednesday), 
    this year's edition of the Tigers was on a pace to hit 221 homers.
    They've got a shot at the team record...
    
    glenn
     

      Thanks Glenn. I thought they had recently come close to the\
    major-league record but wasn't sure of the exact numbers.
    
    Wes

    Yeah, thanks, Glenn.  Seems like I read something about the major
    league record awhile ago, but my memory isn't what it used to be.  And,
    it never was very good to begin with!  Getting old is H*ll.
    
    Now, where was I?
    
    lEe

    
    	lEe, my pa told me there are two things which indicate
    	you're getting old.  The first is your memory goes bad.
    
	He couldn't remember the other one!
    
    	Claybone

    Yeah, Claybode, I think I know what he meant, but I don't recall for
    sure.
    
    Anyway, My wife has been telling me I'm getting forgetful.  I told her
    it must be her imagination, 'cause I don't remember forgetting
    anything.
    
    lEe

    Tigers win their 4th in a row... overtake Cleveland for 6th!!!

    > <<< Note 58.89 by ROYALT::ASHE "The roof�, the roof is on fire..." >>>
    >                    -< Just DON'T resign Gibson... >-
    
    Walt, by any chance have you read BB_ROTIS today?  :-)
    
    
    py

    Me?  Nah...

    Tigers beat Boston this afternoon 5-1; two HRs for Fielder.
    
    
    py

    3 in 2 days... let's go Cecil...  Tanana got the win?
    

       Stick a fork in 'em! Time to call up all the PawSox.
                                          Denny

    Denny, most of the PawSox are already up.  The Sox really don't have
    much down on the farm these days.

    
    
    Tom Monaghan (tiger's owner) is trying to sell the team.  His Domino's
    pizza business is in some sad shape.  Tom has been funneling money
    from the Tiger's to keep his pizza empire going.  The tigers had
    to borrow $5 million from the league to make payroll.
    
    Edsel Ford has offered $65 million for the team.  Monaghan wants
    $100 million.  News today in Detroit is that Monaghan has been talking
    to St. Petersburg about moving the team down there.   People think
    that he is trying to get to bidders for the team to up the ante.
    
    Also on the bidding list is Mike Illych(sp?) (Current Redwings owner and
    Little Caeser's owner) and Joel Ferguson a black businessman from
    Lansing.
    
    The problem a new owner is going to have is that the Tigers desparately
    need a new ballpark.  The taxpayers of Detroit and Michigan have been
    unwilling to fund a new ballpark.
    
    \pjb

    Valentin is still down on the farm, but this ain't da Sox note...
    
    Illich also owns the perennial powerhouse Detriot(tm) Drive of the
    Arena football league.  Hope they stay put...
    

�    Valentin is still down on the farm, but this ain't da Sox note...
    
    True (on both points), but SS ain't a problem.

    It is if you put Rivera in LF...

Aren't some of Monahans' money woes - or desire to sell the Tigers and Domino's
the result of his money giving to anti-abortion groups.  I've read several
articles.  Dominos has had a partial boycott  - combined with lots of
competition in the home delivery field.

    
    Monahan is one of the primary funders of Operation Rescue. 
    
    
    Cath

Actually Mike - he wants to sell all of his companies, like Dominos.  I'm not
using this as a way for you to go into one of your tangents.  Just stating the
facts.  

I believe he joined some group, and he wants to sell everything and give it
all to them or something like that.  Don't remember the specifics - article I
read was well over a year ago.

    re .103
    
    I think I know the article you refer to JD. Monahan feels like it's
    past time he makes a real contribution to making teh world better. I
    don't think that  he's going to give it all to the church. But he does
    plan to see everything but the Tigers and some of his favorite old cars
    that are his passion.
    
    Doc

    
    I have a funny feeling that if I were a Detroit-area resident and a
    Tigers fan I'd be a vocal member of one of those organizations to 
    save Tiger Stadium and toss Tom Monaghan out with all the other
    financially and morally bankrupt get-rich-quickers.  Some things
    transcend time and establish a legacy; Domino's Pizza is not one of 
    them...
    
    glenn
     

    Than you, Saw.  This note has been pretty quiet, what with the poor
    performance of the Tigers this year.  But, I'd rather have it quiet
    than cluttered up with non-baseball issues.
    
    Tigers lost last night, after taking 3 from the Sox.
    
    Anyway to get all the rest of the season changed to just playing
    Boston?  :*)
    
    lEe

    Tiger Stadium is probably in the same condition that old Comiskey Park
    was in and Fenway Park soon will be:
    
    1.  Deteriorating structure
    2.  Costs a lot to keep it up
    3.  parking and access trouble
    4.  neighborhood issues (not the case with Fenway, though)
    
    I have no problem at all with the Tigers trying to get a new ballpark.
    
    John

       I don't have a problem with anyone getting a new stadium. I just
    don't think taxpayers should be footing the bill. Not until the economy
    picks up at least.
                                    Denny

    What I have a problem with the historical preservationists trying to
    prevent the Tigers for doing what I think is right for their business.
    
    John

    > Than you, Saw.
    
    lEe, what is it with the missing lasted letters with you anyway?
    
    Hawk  :-)
    

    
    The problem with the Tiger's owner is a public relations problem.
    
    The flap over the firing of Ernie Harwell.  The Ernie Harwell firing
    was the radio stations idea.  Bo Schembechler took all of the heat
    for it.
    
    The Tiger's ownership trying to threaten everyone that if they don't
    get a new stadium they will move the team.  No one felt obligated
    to build a millionaire a new stadium without him putting up some
    money of his own.
    
    \pjb

    re Harwell, CBS radio hired him and he now does their Saturday night
    games.  Ernie's among my 2-3 favorite announcers in any sport, glad
    someone picked him up.
    
    
    py

    The thing that gets me the most about Mognahan is that his struggling
    Pizza empire is floundering, yet he uses cash from the Tigers to prop
    it up. OK, that's not that unusual in business, but I find it appalling
    for him to threaten to move the Tigers for financial reasons largely
    due to his bad business decisions in the food industry, and at the same
    time to be giving large sums of money to a political organization. Now
    he claims the taxpayers will have to foot the bill for a (much needed) 
    new ballpark without him coughing up any of his own cash? 
    
    I don't care if he "really believes" in Operation Rescue and really
    wants to "make the world a better place." He is making a choice between
    the Tigers and OR. If he didn't support OR, he would have the $$$ to put 
    up for a new park. If he put up 1/2, he could make a much better case for 
    the rest being publicly funded. If he did this, the Tigers be worth 
    considerably more (look at the Orioles). Instead, he is choosing to do 
    something else with his money, which is his right, but in doing this, he 
    forfeits the right to cry poverty.
    
    Tom

    Listening to the Tigers ain't the same without Ernie.
    
    I'll be at Tiger Stadium a week from tomorrow.  I really want to see
    what shape it's in, since I haven't gone in 20 years (yipes).  The
    trouble is they want to keep it closer to downtown instead of da burbs
    like DaLions and DaPistons.  Not a lot of places to do that and making
    it possible to help foot the bill...
    

    
    re. 128
    
    The radio station wanted to fire Ernie at the beginning of last season.
    Bo convinced the station to keep Ernie on.  Kind of a farewell season.
    Bo took all of the heat for the firing when it was the upper management
    of the station that wanted Ernie gone.
    
    'pjb

    
    > What I have a problem with the historical preservationists trying to
    > prevent the Tigers for doing what I think is right for their business.
    
    Which is it then, John, private business or civic asset?  Seems to me
    that if a sports franchise like the Tigers is going to ask the
    taxpayers to fork over the dough then those taxpayers, including the 
    "historical preservationists", ought to be able to voice their opinion.
    Sports moguls want it all their way these days...
    
    glenn
    

    I never said the city of Detroit needed to build the Tigers a ballpark. 
    
    If it's owned by the city and the historical preservationists get their
    way, then the city will pour an awful lot of good money after bad in
    preserving the structure.  At some point the city will be better served
    by building a new park.
    
    If it's owned by the team, and the team needs to build a new ballpark
    and is depending on the sale of the old ballpark and its real estate to
    help finance the new one then I don't think the preservationists have
    any right to stick their noses in.  Preserving the ballpark could be
    found to be detrimental to their business.  If the team doesn't need to
    sell the old facility, then they go play somewhere else and the
    preservationists can have a nice, collapsing, empty ballpark to look
    at.
    
    John

    
    > If it's owned by the team, and the team needs to build a new ballpark
    > and is depending on the sale of the old ballpark and its real estate to
    > help finance the new one then I don't think the preservationists have
    > any right to stick their noses in.
      
    This is obviously not the case.  Tom Monaghan has made the hints
    about moving out of town, and it's not because these preservationists
    you deride are preventing him from doing what he wants with his
    own assets.  It's because they may be preventing him from getting
    a handout in the order of tens of millions of dollars in the form
    of a new taxpayer-subsidized stadium.
    
    I don't know all the specifics around the Tiger Stadium edifice itself,
    although I do know it's in a bad neighborhood.  I'm cynical because 
    I've heard all the same stuff about Fenway Park as this crumbling,
    dilapidated structure that's just got to go before somebody gets
    killed, and it's a lot of bull.  Fenway Park is perfectly functional, 
    and could continue to be so for probably at least another 25 years.  I
    don't see any reason to be in a hurry to get rid of it, especially
    in the current economy, as someone else pointed out.  The Red Sox 
    probably put a few million into the place a year in maintenance,
    tops (a fact they don't like, I'm sure, but which is far preferable
    to the debt service on a new park if the ballclub were the ones
    having to pay for it).  A brand new baseball stadium with all the 
    amenities starts at $250 million.  That's a lot of capital and I just 
    don't see it as a immediate community priority when what you've got 
    works, is attractive and of historical significance, and has a bunch 
    of years left in it to boot.
                  
    The "business need" for new stadiums which many sports owners are
    now citing is not due to any prohibitive maintenance costs on the 
    older structures, but rather for the big bucks that would roll in for 
    the luxury boxes and the like (something that wasn't planned for even
    20-30 years ago, much less 80).  Frankly, I don't care whether these 
    owners get to tap that source of revenue or not.  As a common fan, 
    the presence of luxury boxes in no way enhances my enjoyment of a ball 
    game.
    
    glenn
    

       As Will McDonough pointed out when Jean Yawkey died, if the Red Sox
    are to be sold, Fenway is obsolete. The team and park will cost the new
    owner almost $200 million. There's no way they can make any money with
    35,000 seats. The interest alone would be about $15-20 million.
                                                Denny

    re .133
    
    $200 million is a lotta moola! If that's what the current Red Sox
    ownership thinks they'll get if they sell, I think they are taking a
    page out of Lou Gorman's own-player evaluation book.  If the new owners
    couldn't make any money with 35,000 seats and the existing park, they
    would be crazy to cough up that kind of money to buy the team in the
    first place!
    
    What about a publicly owned team, like the Green Bay Packers or Edmonton
    Eskimos? A lot of English soccer teams are floating bond issues to
    season ticket holders to finance stadium renovations. It's just as if
    you are paying for your season tickets 2 years in advance, but you get a
    discount off the regular price. Of course, the Sox hold on to our
    interest for a good 6 months every year anyway...
    
    Tom

    
    > $200 million is a lotta moola! If that's what the current Red Sox
    > ownership thinks they'll get if they sell, I think they are taking a
    > page out of Lou Gorman's own-player evaluation book.  If the new owners
    > couldn't make any money with 35,000 seats and the existing park, they
    > would be crazy to cough up that kind of money to buy the team in the
    > first place!
    
    Exactly the question I had when I originally read McDonough's article
    on this subject (he's done the same one with the Patriots, by the way,
    stating that they're doomed without a new stadium and luxury boxes and
    never once stopping just for a second to ask why the average fan should
    care about this terrible plight).  Instead, it's naturally assumed that 
    the taxpayer will foot the bill for the ever-growing cost of major 
    league sports franchises or lose out to someone who will.  What ever 
    happened to the damned game itself?  Hey, it'd be refreshing to just 
    once hear an owner come right out say that he needs the luxury box cash 
    to pay off the exhorbitant debt he stupidly incurred, but instead we 
    hear the players blamed for the salaries these guys agreed to pay them, 
    stadium conditions, concessions and parking rights, etc.  How about a 
    little sound fiscal policy on the league's part for a change?  Sooner 
    or later you run out of cities willing to play the high-stakes shell 
    game...
    
    The bottom line with the Red Sox is that even in today's insane
    baseball financial market, compared to most franchises they're in fine 
    shape, bringing in enough cash to cover all their current costs and
    leaving them with an estimated $10 million annual profit.  If that's 
    not good enough to cover the debts incurred by the purchase of the
    team, then the price is too high, plain and simple.  This is not a
    situation like with the Patriots where the guy coming in is losing
    money from day one with a lot of pressure to turn things around.
    
    glenn
     

       The problem with the Sox is that the present ownership has no debt
    service on Fenway. The new owner would. No way would I vote for tax
    money going to a stadium. The $200m includes the ballpark and the land
    it sits on. That's why the selling price would be so high.
                                      Denny

    BTW, McDonough has never asked for a public stadium as far as I know.
    And his telling Kiam that he was crazy to buy the Pats without the
    stadium was 100% accurate.
                                      Denny

    Glenn, while I don't buy the arguments being made by Monaghan either
    and I agree with you about the luxury boxes, one thing is clear -
    structures such as ballparks do become obsolete, do wear out and
    gradually require more and more money to keep them functional.
    
    Also, while I'm not against preservationists per se, if the situation
    in Detroit was different, I'd still have a problem with them telling
    the Tigers they were stuck with the old park if it was being shown to
    be detrimental to the business.  That's all.  
    
    As a caveat, I don't see anything wrong with Foxboro Stadium.  There's
    lots of room to build luxury boxes, plenty of parking and the access is
    no worse than that of some other stadiums around the NFL.  The real
    problem with the stadium is that it's not in a city.
    
    John

       I agree John, I don't have a problem with Foxboro either. I'd
    consider giving up my tickets if the Pats moved to a multi-purpose
    monstrosity Dome in some No. Shore 'burb, or worse yet downtown Boston.
                                        Denny

    Actually Foxboro has made a lot of improvements over the years, so it
    is a lot better than it used to be. One area that still could be
    improved is exit access and parking. Yes, they have added new lots and
    exits, but it still takes forever to leave. If there was another access
    road around the back of the parking lots going in eiter direction, it
    would help a lot.
    
    As for the Tigers, what is the real story here? Has Mognahan gone so
    far as to threaten that they are gone to Tampa Bay if taxpayers don't
    fund a new park? He's strapped for cash that he can't pitch in any of
    his own money, so he wants a publicly funded park, it that it? If so,
    how much of his financial troubles stem from his business (Dominos) or
    leveraged debt, as opposed to the Tigers own financial health?
    
    Tom

       Hey Tom, just park with us. We never have trouble getting out!
    Course we're there for 2 hours after the game.
                                Denny

    re .127
    
    At least they want to keep the team in the city, instead of moving it
    into Da Burbs, I wish more teams would think that way.
    
    How about simply moving the team into the Silverdome temporaily, and
    demolishing the old staidum, and bulid a new one on the old spot ?

    re .135
    
    Nice note Glenn. I was listing to 680AM and Lou Gorman was on the
    Sports Talk show. Too funny. He was whining about the salary gridlock
    that was not allowing the Sox to make needed trades. Trouble was that
    he then blammed player salaries - and the players for asking for them.
    
    The real funny part came when someone pointed out that 1) The players
    ask, but the owners pay them. 2) Who told Gorman to spend mega-bucks on
    a Matt Young and Jack Clark ?
    
    Gorman had no coherant answer ...

    Hey, who cares about Foxboro and da Sox in thised note...
    Unless you wanna talk about lasted night's game...
    

       Doc, a lot of downtown land is worth too much money to be building
    stadiums on. Developers would rather put a zillion story building
    there.
                                       Denny

    I got a couple of Tiger questions:
    
    	When did Phil Clark get moved from catcher to OF?
    
        Who is Buddy Groom (today's starting pitcher)?  I keep up with
    	most of the minor league teams, but have never heard of this guy...
    
    
    py

    
    Bud Groom came from the Chicago AL system.  I beleive he threw three 
    no-hitters in '90 or '91.
    

    Bo is gone!  Fired!  Yeah!!!!!!
    
    lEe

    
    Heard on the radio this morning that Bo was notified of his dismissal
    by FAX.  Tacky.
    
    Dickstah
    

    Tacky, but effective!  Glad he's gone.  Who's gonna replace him?
    
    Lee

      The paper says Monaghan will take over the duties of the President.
    Gee, just who they need in that position. I hope the sale is approved
    quickly before he can do anymore damage.
      Mike Ilitch (the new owner) wants Ernie Harwell back in the booth.
    YEA !!!
    
    
    Wes

    Hi, Wes.  Good to see you in here.
    
    Any chance of Lajoie returning?
    
    lEe

       I doubt it. He has a good position in Atlanta. I heard he was
    interested in getting Whitaker.
       Bo says he never signed a contract with the Tigers but instead
    has a napkin that Monaghan wrote the details of his offer. It was to be
    a 10 year offer. He is considering a lawsuit for breach of contract.
       
    
    Wes
    

      Just read in Thursday's USA Today that Bill Lajoie may in fact be
    returning to Detroit.
    
    Wes

OK, here's a question I'm sure Tiger buffs will be up on.

A friend of mine and I were reminiscing about the 1968 series.  Naturally we 
began to talk about how Mickey Stanley was pressed into action at shortstop, 
when he had been an outfielder all season.  We couldn't, however, remember why.
Was the regular SS injured, if so, who was it?  Or did they do it because 
Ray Oyler couldn't hit a lick?  I have the stats from the series, and Oyler was
in most of the games, but didn't have an at-bat.

Deen ot wonk, etc.

=Bob=

    
    Stanley had played some shortstop during the season, and so had some
    other utility players, I believe.  Oyler posted one of the worst
    offensive seasons of all time, with a batting average below .150, I
    believe.  They had been pinch-hitting and platooning around him all
    season, and I guess they decided to go all the way in the Series.
    
    glenn
    

    From what I recall, Mayo Smith felt he needed more hitting that what
    Oyler could provide.
    
    Mickey Lolich - What a man.
    
    Lee

Also, Mayo Smith had been juggling outfielders all season.  They had Al Kaline 
(best all around outfielder), Stanley (best defensive outfielder and solid 
hitter), Willie Horton, and Jim Northrup (two best power hitters).  This was 
pre-DH, so the pitchers batted, and Smith decided that you couldn't give the 
likes of Bob Gibson two automatic outs.  

If I remember correctly, Northrup was the guy who got the least playing time 
during the regular season, so offensively, the tradeoff was Northrup for 
Oyler.  And Northrup was the guy who got the winning hit in game 7.

Defensively, the move hurt the outfield defense somewhat (Stanley was better 
than Northrup), hurt the infield defense (Oyler was a very good shortstop, 
with his batting average, he HAD to be).

I don't remember Stanley playing SS during the regular season.  I thought it 
was his first time since high school, but I'm not sure.

Clay

�I don't remember Stanley playing SS during the regular season.  I thought it 
�was his first time since high school, but I'm not sure.

That was my recallection of it also.

Kaline was the leading batter in that WS - .379/2/8, and Northrop had one 
fewer AB, and posted .250/2/8.  The other hitting star was Norm Cash .375/1/5.
Of course everyone remembers Lolich (3-0, 1.67) coming through as Denny McLain
ran out of gas.

    
    I checked last night on the 1968 Tigers question and both Dick
    Tracewski and Tom Matchick substituted for over 100 games at shortstop
    that year.  Dick McAuliffe played six games there and Mickey Stanley
    nine (in September to prepare for the Series?).
    
    glenn
    

    Oh man, and I missed it...
    
    Wockenfuss was a manager in the minors, but I think he was cut loose
    last year or the year before...  Phil Mankowski I've heard has a card
    shop outside of Detriot(tm) though...
    
    Hiller wasn't around in '68, was he?  Now Gates Brown, now that's
    a player, right JD?
    

              <<< VAXWRK::$1$DUS6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]RED_SOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Boston Red Sox, 1992 >-
================================================================================
Note 31.679          Miscellaneous Information and Ratholes           679 of 679
BTOVT::MORONG                                        13 lines  24-SEP-1992 07:53
                   -< "Senior Smoke" dies in car accident. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Aurelio "Senior Smoke" Lopez, former reliever for the Tigers
    during their 1984 World Series championship year died in a car
    crash.  He was 44.
    
      During the 1984 championship season, he was 10-1 with 14 saves.
    He won games in the playoffs and the World Series, allowing 1 hit
    in 3 innings of two Series games as the Tigers beat San Diego in
    5 games.
    
      Lopez finsihed his career in Houston in 1987, with a lifetime mark
    of 62-36, 93 saves and a 3.56 ERA.
    
    -Ron-

    Bummer...
    

Boy, those tigers sure know how to pick friont ofice people.  First it was Bo 
Schembeckler, who proved that as a baseball man, he was a lousy football coach. 
No sooner does the new management get rid of him than I read in the paper that 
they have hired a new "consultant" - JOHN ZEIGLER.  Brilliant guys.

       You beat me to it Bob. These 2 Tiger owners musta spent too much
    time with their haids in pizza ovens!
                                Denny

    Sigh... yeah I know... Maybe he'll be kept under wrap.  He did bring
    back Ernie Harwell, so he gets some points with me...
    

       They didn't bring Zmain in as PR guy did they? If so, look for the
    Tigers to be moving soon!
                                 Denny

    Nah, Ziggy the Pinhaid was brought in solely to magistrate the
    kangaroo court
    
    MikeL
    

       HE musta drug O'neil along with him then!