Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Whoa the Hurryin' Hoosiers look like they might be reel what with 
    the blowout of the admittedly rebuilding Illini last night.  First
    congrat's to ESPN for not broadcasting any Big10 hoops this year,
    I enjoy watching ACC action night in night out nonstop.
    
    But cain the Hoosiers do well against teams with big quick front-
    lines?  Probably not, cuz a: 1) no middlemain, 2) thin at forward
    with no good subs behind Calbert & Eric, and 3) shaky outside shooting
    from a guard-orientated squad.  But, on the other hand they have two
    fine forwards, a bus load a guards, and play tough D.  Oh, and they
    have the best coach ever in the annals of team sports.
    
    Final preconference pix:
    
    1.  Buckeyes (Jim is God and the reast ain't to shabby either)
    2.  State (Peplowski and other young players will come on strong)
    3.  Hoosiers (Big10 familiar with how to zone Hoosiers into losses)
    4.  Illini (don't let last night fool ya)
    5.  Iowa  (they have the hot center looks like)
    6.  Michigan (stupidest coach ever, even by Ann Arbor's low standards)
    7.  Minnesota (young talent)
    8.  Purdue (Gene will find a way he always does)
    9.  Wisconsin (bye bye Yoder!)
    10. Mildcats (a_already bad team made wretched by defections)

    Damn.  I knew that Big10 hoops was down this year but one note
    in one week?!
    
    Big10 Tom

Okay, MrT, I'll join in...

I can't track down my pre-season picks, but I think the top three were
Ohio State, Michigan State, and IU in that order.  Here's my pre-Big10
revised picks:

15-3   *Indiana 	: They have the depth, they have the coach, there
			  isn't a whole lot of size in the Big 10 this year,
			  and they have Calbert and Damon;
14-4   *Ohio State      : They don't have the depth that IU has and foul
			  trouble {which is common in the Big 10} will cost
			  them a couple games;  
13-5   *Michigan State  : By default;  They haven't shown any signs of
			  repeating yet;  Missing some solid team players;

10-8   *Iowa            : They've been the surprise team so far;
 9-9   *Illinois        : Better than expected;  Unless Coach Lou finds a
			  way to screw them up;  Thomas is a budding star;
 8-10	Purdue          : Gene will use this season to prep for next year
 8-10	Minnesota       : Lost to Wisconsin?
 6-12	Wisconsin       : Beat Minnesota?
 5-13	Michigan        : Haw Haw Haw... The joke is that Fisher is a worse
			  coach than Freider!   Nothing like taking over a 
			  team with 5 NBA players and turning that into a
			  multi-year contract.
 2-16	Northwestern    : But they'll lead the league in future Tony awards	


* = Tournament Teams


Big game next Monday with the Hoosiers travelling to West Lafayette to 
face a weak Boilermaker team.   A big win by Bob might set the stage for
a championship run.   A loss might cause me to reassess.

	Wandering hoopster Lawrence Funderburke (unaffectionately known as 
"other" in Indiana's statistical summary for the '89-'90 season) is expected 
to enroll for the second semester at Ohio State.  Funderburke would be 
eligible to play beginning the second semester of next year, and would have 
2.5 years of eligibility remaining.

tom

    That's bad news.  The last thing we need is ThunderBurp over in 
    St. John Arena tearing up the paint on behalf of a non-IU squad...
    Deon Thomas' play thus far explains why all the fuss, he's pure
    STUD... Gibbons rates Purdue's recruit #1 in the nation and 
    Henderson only 7th... Michigan looks like they'll end up with the
    #1 recruiting class in the nation... Minnesota will start playing
    Ernest Nsigamasabo more, he's the 6-10 Watusi from Burundi who's
    only played hoops for 3 years, a 4.0 GPA in engineering who speaks
    6 languages and popped the 1400 mark on his SATs (should catch on
    reel quick)... Alan Henderson is a 3.8 1300+ Nat'l Honors Society
    student at Brebeuf, perhaps the top prep school in Indiana... Acie
    Earl is doing very well for Iowa in the middle this year and is now
    regarded by many as the best center in the conference...  Iowa is 
    also ranked in the top few for overall recruiting classes... Clem
    Haskins of Minnesota is working very hard to sign Chris Weber, and
    is reportedly down to the final 3 with State and Michigan (Michigan
    is favored)... 
    
    Big10 Tom
     

�    That's bad news.  The last thing we need is ThunderBurp over in 
�    St. John Arena tearing up the paint on behalf of a non-IU squad...

MrT

	Does `tearing up the paint' equate to the theater's
	`chewing the scenery' (as in really hamming it up).

If it doesn't... I think it should
	ie.  a player that tears up the paint is a hotdog.

Mike JN

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-10-91)  NCAA
Date: 10 Jan 91 16:12:41 GMT
 
Tonight:
 
	#64 Minnesota at #67 ILLINOIS            7:00 pm
	#69 Michigan at #42 IOWA                 7:00 pm
	#68 Wisconsin at #24 MICHIGAN STATE      7:00 pm
	#5  Ohio State at #241 NORTHWESTERN      7:00 pm
  
Saturday:
 
	#42  Iowa at #64 MINNESOTA                1:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#241 Northwestern at #24 MICHIGAN STATE   3:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#68  Wisconsin at #5 OHIO STATE           7:00 pm
	#69  Michigan at #33 PURDUE               7:00 pm
 
Monday:
 
	#6 Indiana at #33 PURDUE               8:30 pm  ESPN 
 
RECORDS:
 
    #5    Ohio State        12-0    2-0
    #6    Indiana           14-1    2-0
    #68   Wisconsin          7-4    1-0
    #42   Iowa              12-2    1-1
    #33   Purdue             9-3    1-1
    #67   Illinois          11-4    1-1
    #24   Michigan State     8-4    1-1
    #64   Minnesota          7-4    0-1
    #69   Michigan           7-5    0-2
    #241  Northwestern       5-6    0-2
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Randy Peppler                        [email protected] |
| Illinois State Water Survey      or: [email protected]        |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last night in the Big 10:

Minnesota  at ILLINOIS           Illinois won  67-66
Michigan   at IOWA               Iowa     won  79-78  
Wisconsin  at MICHIGAN STATE     Mich St  won  65-50   
Ohio State at NORTHWESTERN       Ohio St  won 102-60  

RECORDS:
 
Ohio State        13-0    3-0
Indiana           14-1    2-0
Iowa              13-2    2-1
Illinois          12-4    2-1
Michigan State     9-4    2-1
Purdue             9-3    1-1
Wisconsin          7-5    1-1
Minnesota          7-5    0-2
Michigan           7-6    0-3
Northwestern       5-7    0-3

    Boy, Illinois and Minnesota are badly underrated to be way down
    in the 60s.  Both teams are young, both, especially the Illini,
    have big-time talent. 
    
    Big10 Tom

So, MrT, when is Minnesota going to do something with all that talent you
talk about?   7-5 is not exactly lighting the world on fire.   They aren't
even much of a threat to go to the NCAA's unless they start winning some
road games in the Big 10.

Illinois and Iowa, unfortunately, seem to be much better than predicted.
Michigan, gleefully, seems worse.   If Fisher doesn't get Chris Weber, does
he lose his job as well?

    Remember first that Clem & Co. have played two road games thus far
    in the Big10 (@ Madison and Champaign).  Second, this team is
    extremely young, basically all first year players except for three
    players:
    
    - Kevin Lynch, big guard who was a role player now thrust into 
      position of go-to guy, and he's fumbling.
    
    - Walter Bond, swingman former role player who's now trying to act
      as if he's Willie Burton.  Bond is OK but no star, especially on
      offense.  Important to note that as a key player he's missed most
      of the year with a foot injury (he's just back now).
    
    - Bob Martin, 9 ft. tall center, has played well occasionally (as
      he did against Ga. Tech in the regional finals last year) but is
      basically a foul-prone no-rebound no-defense stiff.
    
    So Clem needs time, time to break in Ernest Nsigamasabo in the middle,
    time to break in Arriel McDonald on the point, time to break in his
    book-end forwards Carter and Jackson up front.
    
    Big10 Tom

Saturday:
 
Minnesota   79  Iowa           77   But can Gophers win on road?  
Mich State  66  Northwestern   59   Wow!  Michigan State is really not as
			            expected.   This was a home game.
Ohio State  92  Wisconsin      60   It's a two team race in the Big 10
Purdue      86  Michigan       69   Any win is a big win for Purdue now, but
				    the spread is very surprising {but
				    gratifying!}
 

RECORDS:
 
Ohio State        14-0    4-0
Indiana           14-1    2-0
Michigan State    10-4    3-1
Purdue            10-3    2-1
Illinois          12-4    2-1
Iowa              13-3    2-2
Wisconsin          7-6    1-2
Minnesota          8-5    1-2
Michigan           7-7    0-4
Northwestern       5-8    0-4


Tonight, the game of the year {for me}... On national TV.   Bob vs Gene.

	#6 Indiana at #33 PURDUE               8:30 pm  ESPN 
 

    Well well, turns out that we all were hoodwinked by what has come
    to be the perenniel blooming of blossomus poormouthicus in the
    garden tended by Purdue Alumni.  Are the Boilermakers a threat for
    the Big10 Crown?!  Peut etre.  We shall see tonight as the Farm 
    Implements host Bob's elegant team of transition gamecocks.
    
    Big10 Tom

>   <<< Note 15.13 by CARP::SHAUGHNESSY "AD 1066,1215,1789,1848,1917,1989" >>>
>                            -< Purdue Powerhouse? >-
>
>    Well well, turns out that we all were hoodwinked by what has come
>    to be the perenniel blooming of blossomus poormouthicus in the
>    garden tended by Purdue Alumni.  Are the Boilermakers a threat for
>   the Big10 Crown?!  Peut etre.  

Seems like MrT is trying to put the pregame spin-control on... If the
Boilers win, it will be a major upset.   Indiana should be favored by
at least 10.     Purdue is without their starting point guard {Woody
Austin - academics} and has no size, no speed, and little experience.

    So then, what you're saying, Mr. Farm Implement, is that these Big10
    victories by Purdue are mass hallucinations?
    
    Big10 Tom

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-11-91)  NCAA
Date: 11 Jan 91 21:40:04 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#67 ILLINOIS 67, #64 Minnesota 66:  Lightning struck again in
	Assembly Hall, as Rennie Clemons sank a one-handed prayer and
	subsequent winning free throw with 3.2 seconds left for another
	come-from-behind win.  The Gophers, which were blown out of Wisconsin
	Fieldhouse on Monday, were helped by poor Illinois shooting early
	on, and led most of this game, sometimes by as many as 13 points in
	the second half.  But, just like Purdue Saturday, they could not
	hold on down the stretch.  The Gophers missed some key free throws
	late, but what else is new.  Lou Henson looked like he had just won the
	lottery when Clemons' shot fell, a shot which only Michael Jordan is
	supposed to make.  The Gophers also had big first half leads, once
	of 23-15.  Andy Kaufmann came back after a cold first half to do
	some second half damage.  This is the third straight home game which
	has been preceded by an ice storm...
 
#42 IOWA 79, #69 Michigan 78:  Michigan jumped ahead 12-zip, and set
	the tone for a very exciting and close game at Iowa.  Iowa managed
	to establish a 64-56 lead toward the later stages of the game, but
	the Wolverines tied it up at 71 with 3:25 left, and it wasn't until
	a Val Barnes basket (76-75) that Iowa was up for good.  Barnes had
	17, Rodell Davis 22, and Acie Earl 15 for Iowa, while scoring
	machine Demetrious Calip led Michigan with 23.  This was by far the
	Wolverines best conference game to date...
 
#24 MICHIGAN STATE 65, #68 Wisconsin 50:  This game was played at
	Wisconsin's pace, but the Spartans were just too much at home.  The
	fiesty Badgers actually led by 24-23 at halftime in what must have
	been frustration for the big crowd.  The Badgers widened the lead to
	30-25 early in the second stanza before the Spartans went on a 17-3
	run (42-33) to settle things.  Steve Smith scored 21 and Mike
	Peplowski 19, a career high...
 
#5  Ohio State 102, #241 NORTHWESTERN 62:  The Wildcats were beaten
	by 40+ points for the second consecutive game.  OSU led 44-26 at
	halftime, and outscored NU 25-4 in the early stages of the second
	half to really put it away (69-30).  Jim Jackson had 23 points, 17
	in the second half (as usual).  Northwestern may go winless in the
	conference this year...
 
 
 
Saturday:
 
	#42  Iowa at #64 MINNESOTA                1:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#241 Northwestern at #24 MICHIGAN STATE   3:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#68  Wisconsin at #5 OHIO STATE           7:00 pm
	#69  Michigan at #33 PURDUE               7:00 pm
 
 
Monday:
 
	#6   Indiana at #33 PURDUE                8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
Thursday:
 
	#24  Michigan State at #67 ILLINOIS       7:00 pm
	#42  Iowa at #68 WISCONSIN                7:00 pm
	#241 Northwestern at #69 MICHIGAN         7:00 pm
	#33  Purdue at #64 MINNESOTA              7:00 pm
 
 
RECORDS:
 
    #5    Ohio State        13-0    3-0
    #6    Indiana           14-1    2-0
    #42   Iowa              13-2    2-1
    #67   Illinois          12-4    2-1
    #24   Michigan State     9-4    2-1
    #33   Purdue             9-3    1-1
    #68   Wisconsin          7-5    1-1
    #64   Minnesota          7-5    0-2
    #69   Michigan           7-6    0-3
    #241  Northwestern       5-7    0-3
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Randy Peppler                        [email protected] |
| Illinois State Water Survey      or: [email protected]        |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-14-91)  NCAA
Date: 14 Jan 91 19:17:11 GMT
 
Don't forget to watch tonight's second part of Big Monday, as Purdue
hosts Indiana in one of the most (if not most) intense college
basketball rivalries in the country...  8:30 pm Central Time with Dick
and Mike...
 
In the interesting stat department, of the 18 conference games played so
far, the road team has only won three times:  Purdue and Ohio State at
Northwestern, and Ohio State at Michigan.  This in contrast to some
recent seasons where The Road Warrior has existed...
 
 
Saturday's Results:
 
#64 MINNESOTA 79, #42 Iowa 77:  The Gophers and Hawkeyes reversed
	cliffhanger roles from last Thursday night, as Dana Jackson tipped
	in a missed driving shot by Arriel McDonald, over Acie Earl, with
	just 1.3 ticks left to win it for Minnesota.  The Hawkeyes blew a
	43-31 halftime lead as the Gophers averted losing their third
	straight home game.  This was Iowa's 13th straight Big Ten road
	loss, a rather remarkable streak which should end soon I would
	think.  The Gophers won this one from the field, scoring four more
	treys than Iowa.  The Hawkeyes took 28 FTs to just 11 for Minnesota,
	but missed 8 of them.  Kevin Lynch led the Gophers with 26 points,
	while Walter Bond had 17.  Jackson had 10.  Iowa was led by Val
	Barnes (a juco, in case some of you don't know him;  you will soon)
	with 24, and Earl had 17.  16,555 raucaus fans on hand at The Barn...
 
#24 MICHIGAN STATE 66, #241 Northwestern 59:  The Spartans struggled
	all game against a Wilcat team which had just been beaten by Indiana
	and Ohio State by a combined 81 points.  The Spartans led by only
	six at the break and still only by four within the final few
	minutes, but hung on.  Steve Smith led MSU with 23 points and Mike
	Peplowski, who may be waking up, had 17 points and 11 boards.  Todd
	Leslie had 22 for NU in what can be considered a moral victory.
	Another sellout of 15,138 at the Breslin Center...
 
#5  OHIO STATE 92, #68 Wisconsin 60:  After playing it Wisconsin's way
	in the first half (slow), the Buckeyes forced the second half
	action and routed the Badgers.  Leading just 32-25 at the break, the
	Buckeyes opened huge second half leads, once of 82-48.  OSU scored
	the final 8 points of the first half and the first 9 of the second
	half to decide this game.  Jim Jackson had 7 of his 17 during this
	stretch.  Perry Carter scored 18 and Treg Lee and Jamaal Brown each
	had 13.  Mark Baker had 11 assists to go with 11 points.  Wisconsin
	was led by the baseball players' son, Larry Hisle, with 12.  OSU was
	only whistled 9 times in this game.  Another sellout of 13,276 at
	St. Johns Arena...
 
#33 PURDUE 86, #69 Michigan 69:  This was blowout city as the
	Wolverines dropped their fourth straight conference game.  Purdue
	jumped ahead 10-5, and Michigan closed to 10-9.  But that's as close
	as it ever got.  Purdue led 19-12, 33-19, 35-27, and then 46-31 at
	the break.  The rout continued in the second half, as Purdue raced
	ahead 62-37, and at the peak, 69-43, before Michigan hit several
	treys in the final five minutes to narrow the gap to it's final
	margin.  Purdue had nearly a dozen dunks in this game, as it had no
	trouble beating a porous Michigan defense.  Jimmy Oliver hit a
	career-high 35 points as the Boilermakers ran wild.  Demetrius
	Calip was a one-man show for a beleaguered Steve Fisher, scoring 26
	and being the only Wolverine in double-figures (second straight
	Purdue opponent to do so).  Michael Talley was next highest at 9.
	Eric Riley was outplayed by Craig Riley, if you can believe that.
	Chuckie White continued his tear, scoring 16, and with Oliver, led
	the dunk parade.  As at times last year, the Wolverines appeared to
	throw in the towel once things got bad.  Steve Fisher may need some
	tutiledge in motivation from Bo..  This was nice for a change:  each
	team committed the same number of fouls (19) and took nearly the
	same number of FTs (21 and 20).  By comparison, in two recent
	cliffhanger home wins, Illinois outshot the opposition from the line
	60 to 23.  14,123 at Mackey, as always...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#6   Indiana at #33 PURDUE                8:30 pm CST  ESPN
 
 
Thursday:
 
	#24  Michigan State at #67 ILLINOIS       7:00 pm
	#42  Iowa at #68 WISCONSIN                7:00 pm
	#241 Northwestern at #69 MICHIGAN         7:00 pm
	#33  Purdue at #64 MINNESOTA              7:00 pm
 
 
RECORDS:
 
    #5    Ohio State        14-0    4-0
    #6    Indiana           14-1    2-0
    #24   Michigan State    10-4    3-1
    #33   Purdue            10-3    2-1
    #67   Illinois          12-4    2-1
	#42   Iowa              13-3    2-2
    #64   Minnesota          8-5    1-2
    #68   Wisconsin          7-6    1-2
    #69   Michigan           7-7    0-4
    #241  Northwestern       5-8    0-4
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Randy Peppler                        [email protected] |
| Illinois State Water Survey      or: [email protected]        |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indiana beat Purdue last night 65-62 in a great game.   IU charged to an 
early 12-2 lead but Purdue slowly chipped away at the lead due mostly to 
foul trouble on Cheaney and Anderson.   After being down by 6 at the half,
Purdue battled to take the lead with about twelve minutes to go.  Knight
then put Anderson and Cheaney back into the game and they took over down
the stretch, especially Anderson, hitting big shots.   Purdue had a chance
to shoot for the tie when Jamaal Meeks bricked two free throws with 6 seconds
left, but the Purdue freshman guard Travis Trice fumbled the ball up the court
and never got a shot off.

Before MrT gloats too much, he should asked himself the following question,
"Which of Purdue's starters would start for IU?"   When he objectively 
answers that question as "None" then he should offer praise to Gene Keady
for the job he does.   Keady is now 10-11 lifetime against Knight.

As for the Boilermakers, I saw a lot of good things to look forward to 
next year.   Cornelius McNary, Ian Stanback and recruit Glenn Robinson 
should make for a very good front line.   Unfortunately, the guard situation
is horrible.   Barrett, Painter, Darner, and Trice have to be the weakest
set of guards in the Big 10.   

For Indiana, Cheaney and Anderson did what they had to do.   Damon Bailey
had a bad, invisible game.   The Hoosiers played fantastic defense outside
the paint.   But there's some holes there that the foul trouble exposed.
Lyndon Jones just doesn't have it.   Nover and Lawson are forgettable.
Meeks is trying a little too hard to pretend he's Quinn Buckner.

A great game.   

    I saw the first 10 minutes of the game when Indiana built up the early
    10 point lead over Purdue.
    
    My initial thought was that Knight has the studs to make a run at the
    title *THIS* year.
    
    It is definitely to Keady's credit that the Boilermakers were able to
    come back enough to make it a tight game.
    
    Bob Hunt

    Which Purdue players would start for IU?  Oliver at forward and any 
    one of Riley, Stanback, or McNary at center.  Definitely, without a
    shred of doubt, Nover and Lawson would end up 4th & 5th on the depth
    chart behind any of Keady's big men.  As for Oliver, he's stronger
    around the hoop than Cheaney, who ideally should be playing the big,
    or shooting, guard position.
    
    As I predicted in November, Bob was trying to develop either of his 
    stiff middlemen (Nover is actually a scrub foward thrust into the 
    role out of necessity) and when it came time to play for the games that
    count - i.e., Big10 clashes, where no money-grubbing post-season 
    redundancies exist, thankfully - he'd go with his best five players 
    and thus a 3-guard offense.  And so it was, with 6-0 Meeks, 6-1 Jones
    and 6-2 Bailey starting along with Cheaney and Anderson in hopes of 
    successfully running a transition game against a much bigger and
    stronger Purdue lineup.
    
    It didn't work, however, with the little guys unable to keep up on the
    boards or play defense along the baseline.  Often, even without switch
    offs, Purdue was posting up much bigger players for easy buckets.  This
    especially hurt Bailey of the alleged 39" vertical leap, who for that
    reason sat out most of the game.  Even then, with the bigger Pat Graham
    and Chris Reynolds in, the Hoosiers went nearly 9 minutes without a 
    field goal not cuz a poor shooting but cuz they were badly intimidated
    inside, either flubbing or flinching or taking facials by the much more
    athletic players like Chuckie White, Oliver, Stanback et al.  
    
    The Hoosiers, supposedly the third best team in the nation and one of
    the deepest, went 4 or 5 minutes without even getting off a decent shot
    cuz they were overmatched.
    
    Big10 Tom 
    

    Last night's game showed the weaknesses and strengths of Indiana.
    
    This is not a top10 team.  But, on the bright side, except for poor
    rebounding are a great defensive team, especially when Bailey is on
    the bench in favor of either Meeks or Reynolds.  They D well, pass
    well, transition well, execute well, and with most lineups they use
    usually shoot fairly well.
    
    While the new wave of college hoops is transition, to play that the
    prototype team calls for a raft of positionless clones basically
    comprised of 6-5 to 6-7 jumping jacks who cain dribble and run.  This
    is so cuz you must be able to rebound in order to run.  IU's flaw is 
    that they cain' rebound enough to run enough to compensate for what 
    they give up to bigger teams in the walk-up game.  They need either a
    center or a couple of highly athletic positionless clones.
    
    The Hoosier squad is very unwieldy from a lineup/matchup standpoint,
    and when analyzed by position shows a startling lack of depth.  When
    graded by quality (e.g., a foward who cain survive against a B-forward
    like Chuckie White, who looked like Larry Johnson last night) this is
    apparent:
    
    			  DEPTH BY QUALITY RANK	
    
    Power forward:  1. Eric Anderson
    		    2. 
    		    3. 
    
    Small forward:  1. Calbert Cheaney
    		    2. Pat Graham 
    		    3. 
    
    Center:	    1.
    		    2.
    		    3.
    
    Point Guard:    1. Jamaal Meeks
    		    2. Chris Reynolds
    	  	    3. Damon Bailey
    		    4. Lyndon Jones
                    
    Nover, Lawson, Gregg Graham, and Pat Knight are not good enough right 
    now to survive against big-fast-talented players at their respective 
    postions.  (Remember, this has to do with a #3 team that supposedly has
    a legitimate shot at the Title.) 
    
    Big10 Tom

    Yup Doug, everybody should start singing the praises of Mean Gene cause
    he can't do the absolute most important thing a coach has to do:
    
    RECRUIT.
    
    What a guy!  What a coach!!  What a team!!!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    Which Purdue players would start for IU?  Oliver at forward and any 
>    one of Riley, Stanback, or McNary at center. 

Made my day, MrT.   That has to be the funniest thing you've ever written.
Riley is the worst center Purdue has had in ten years.  Stanback looked
good, but is a frosh with no range and a 45% shooter at the line.  McNary
is a raw talent.    But no way ANY of them would start for Bob... no way.
Oliver would only start if you move Cheaney to guard, even though Cheaney
is taller and a better rebounder... He's a legit small forward.

>    It didn't work, however, with the little guys unable to keep up on the
>    boards or play defense along the baseline.  Often, even without switch
 
All that kept Purdue in the game was the foul trouble on Anderson and Cheaney
and also the fact that Anderson did not assert himself on offense until crunch
time.     

You heard Vitale.  Judd Heathcoate said that Keady gets more out of his
"talent" than any coach in the country.    And his 10-11 record against
Knight is amazing.

    ANALYSIS
    
    ThunderBurp's departure left a gaping hole that has not been covered.
    Bailey's outside shooting and jumping ability is a big disappointment.
    Pat Graham washed out as a big shooting guard but has carved out a 
    nice niche for himself as a good backup small forward who drives and
    shoots well but gives up something on D.  Nover is hopeless, he has no
    basketball instincts and is always out of position for rebounds.  The
    squad needs to develop more outside shooting from someone.  Because of
    the depth problems playing Eric Anderson in the middle won't work cuz
    he'll end up in foul trouble every time against big, strong, deep front
    lines like Purdue's.
    
    RECOMMENDATION:
    
    Play Lawson and let him develop.  He saved IU's ass last night, bringing
    in some D and some O and a few boards in the middle, and letting Eric
    either sit or play his natural postion.  Also, when Henderson comes in 
    next year this will allow Cheaney to move to shooting guard and give the
    Hoosiers a clear shot at Title No. 6.
    
    Scrap Bailey for Reynolds at the, who is much quicker, a much better 
    defender, plays much bigger (leaping and arm length), drives better, and 
    shoots at least as well from the outside.  Play Meeks at point, where he
    makes few mistakes, passes as well as Bailey overall, and plays much 
    better D.
    
    Rotate in as first subs Pat Graham at small forward, Nover at big forward
    or center, Bailey at point, and Jones at shooting guard.
    
    Experiment and maybe develop Pat Graham at small forward with Cheaney
    at big guard.  If that worked and Lawson maintained serviceability IU 
    could then be scary.
    
    Big10 Tom's starting lineup:
    
    	F - Anderson
    	F - Cheaney
    	C - Lawson
        G - Reynolds
    	G - Meeks
    
    I think we may see this lineup eventually.
    
    Also, congrat's to the Pudue alumni for a superb job at poor mouthing
    this year.  They have more muscle along the stripe that any team in the
    Big10 and Keady knows it.  When I first saw Riley I said, "surely he's
    a stiff who cain't shoot the rock."  Surprise, Riley drilled a number of
    consecutive baskets to keep Purdue in the game down the stretch. 
    
    Shame on Keady for failing to exploit Oliver's great talent last night
    (only 11 pts.); and shame on the referees for dishing out some of the
    coldest home cooking seen in the Big10 in years.
    
    Big10 Tom	

>    Yup Doug, everybody should start singing the praises of Mean Gene cause
>    he can't do the absolute most important thing a coach has to do:
>    
>    RECRUIT.

Huh?   I know you know that he's already bagged one of the top five in the
country, Glenn Robinson.    McNary, Stanback, and {to a lesser degree, Trice}
all look like good players.    

If you consider the bagging of big name players who then sit on the bench 
as a positive, then you're right, Keady can't recruit.   

If you consider taking lesser blue chip players and molding them into great
teams a negative, then you're right, Keady can't recruit.

If you consider setting academic standards higher than those of the NCAA
and Big 10 and then trying to find players who fit that mold as a negative,
then you're right, Keady can't recruit.

If you call recruiting within spitting distance of Bob Knight and Notre Dame
and not always getting the best players in the state as a negative, then
you're right, Keady can't recruit.

Coming from a supporter of a coach whose had Michael Jordan, Brad Daugherty,
Sam Perkins, James Worthy, Phil Ford, et al pass thru with only a single 
title to his credit, I'd wonder why you'd consider recruiting a big deal.

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-15-91)  NCAA
Date: 15 Jan 91 05:44:17 GMT
 
I'm doing this very early, with rum in hand, since I have to dodge
snowflakes to repair raingages in Chicago tomorrow (today).  Tell me,
when is Purdue going to get a clue in the final few minutes of a game?
It doesn't get any easier for them in Gopher Country Thursday.  Well,
the rum is good, anyway...
 
 
Tonight's Result:
 
#6  Indiana 65, #33 PURDUE 62:  Purdue got alot of help from the
	"Sixth Man", but they didn't help themselves much in the final five
	minutes again as poised IU won it's 13th straight game.  IU started
	out the game on fire, nailing three treys and leading 16-4 before
	Purdue knew what hit them (they looked really tight).  The Boilers
	cut the lead to 22-13 before IU went up 26-16.  Purdue then got the
	Hoosiers into serious foul trouble, particularly Calbert Cheaney and
	Eric Anderson, and went to the locker room down only 6, 37-31.
	Purdue then scored 9 of the first 13 second half points and drew to
	41-40.  It was within this period that both Cheaney and Anderson
	drew their fourth fouls.  IU subs quickly regained a 6-point, 46-40
	lead, but Chuckie White went spastic and Purdue took it's first lead
	at 49-48 around the 10 minute mark.  Purdue held this lead for many
	minutes, with leads of up to four points at 52-48 and lastly at
	58-54.  Amazingly, both Anderson and Cheaney came back into the game
	together, and neither drew another foul in leading IU back to
	victory.  The two scored nearly all of IU's points the rest of the
	way, Anderson hitting a bunch of tough J's.  IU scored seven
	straight to lead 61-58, partially fueled by some awful Purdue shot
	selection and the typically ridiculous Dave Barrett telegraph
	pass/turnovers.  Purdue drew back to 61-60, but IU hit a shot to go
	up 63-60 and then Pat Graham nailed two FTs to make the lead 65-60.
	Matt Painter then hit a duece to make it 65-62 under the :10 mark,
	and then we were entertained by several timeouts and aborted inbound
	attempts.   Jamaal Meeks was fouled with 6+ ticks left, and he
	responded under pressure with two absolute bricks.  But, Jimmy
	Oliver, who had a terrible game under extreme pressure (Bob Knight
	is no dummy), rebounded and passed off to a freshman, Travis Trice,
	with a confused look on his face, instead of going for it himself.
	Trice promptly forgot how to dribble once he crossed the time line
	and IU won without Purdue even taking a shot.  Chuckie White, who
	scored 17 and pulled down 10 boards, took an ill-advised shot in the
	final two minutes, as did bricklayer Painter.  Ian Stanback was
	tremenous on the boards, and Purdue seemed to lose some zip when he
	left the game late for several minutes after being elbowed by Craig
	Riley.  Even though Anderson and Cheaney picked up a few pine
	splinters, they led the Hoosiers in scoring with 15 and 14,
	respectively, in a hard-earned win.  Another sellout of 14,123 saw
	Purdue lose for the third time this year by 3 or less after leading
	late, twice already in this young Big Ten season.  This was the
	first game that new IU-East student Woody Austin was missed...
 
 
Thursday:
 
	#24  Michigan State at #67 ILLINOIS       7:00 pm
	#42  Iowa at #68 WISCONSIN                7:00 pm
	#241 Northwestern at #69 MICHIGAN         7:00 pm
	#33  Purdue at #64 MINNESOTA              7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#64  Minnesota at #24 MICHIGAN STATE      Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#69  Michigan at #68 WISCONSIN            2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#67  Illinois at # 5 OHIO STATE           7:00 pm
	# 6  Indiana at #42 IOWA                  7:00 pm
 
Next Monday:
 
	# 5  Ohio State at #6 INDIANA             8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    5      4    Ohio State        14-0     4-0
    6      3    Indiana           15-1     3-0
   24     26    Michigan State    10-4     3-1
   67     36    Illinois          12-4     2-1
   42     24    Iowa              13-3     2-2
   33     40    Purdue            10-4     2-2
   64     44    Minnesota          8-5     1-2
   68     NR    Wisconsin          7-6     1-2
   69     NR    Michigan           7-7     0-4
  241     NR    Northwestern       5-8     0-4
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Randy Peppler                        [email protected] |
| Illinois State Water Survey      or: [email protected]        |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    First off: The most important, overriding fack that I, as a_alum of
    Indiana, would like to focus, even dwell, on, is:
    
    
    			Mrs. Keady
    
    
    That's right, Mrs. Gene Keady.  'Nuff said, don't you think?  Whoa.
    Runaway truck, shovel, house fire maybe?  It's a mystery to me, but
    all I cain say is: Mrs. Keady.  Haw haa hee gnhee (tm) !!
    
    Mrs. Gene Keady.  Mrs. Keady Mrs. Keady Mrs. Keady Mrs. Keady Mrs.
    Keady.  Ha ha haaa.  Mrs. *Keady*.  Ho ho ho.
    
    'Nuff said.  Mrs. Keady.
    
    *****
    
    Say what you want, Dougie, but the fack remains that any one of those
    three players would be starting in the middle for the Hoosiers in a 
    minute.  You cain just as easily say that no way ever would a Nover or
    a Lawson be starting for Knight but they have.
    
    You axed the question and I gave a_answer that stands up to reality:
    No way could Bob keep Oliver off the floor (move him to guard, he's
    MUCH more talented than any of the 3 who started last night); and Riley
    looked pretty decent to me.  He put a nifty move on Anderson moving to
    the hoop for a layup, and he popped a few nice little Js, but most of 
    all he - along with White and Stanback and McNary - intimidated the
    smaller Hoosiers out of several easy shots.  
    
    Keady's doing a fine job with a spotty, young team; but so is Bob.
    Mene Gene has 4 bucks he cain throw at you up front, IU has 2.  On the
    other hand Bob has 6 guards, Mene Gene only 1 or 2.  If they played ten
    games Purdue would win at least 3 or 4 of them cuz Keady (ever the
    whiner) has some things that the alleged #3 Hoosiers clearly lack.
    
    Big10 Tom

Is Mrs. Gene Keady that black haired, leather-skinned, social x-ray we
saw on camera for what seemed like minutes in the second half?   If so,
then all I can say is that Gene better hope the kids look like him.

    Oh come ON Doug don't pretend that you don't know now !!
    
    Yes yes YES that black haired, leather-skinned, social x-ray in
    the Holiday Inn Lounge Lizard slatternly get-up that we were forced 
    view repeatedly is Gene's wife, and now you know why he's so doggoned
    Mene.
    
    ESPN must have some fun dudes on their crews, cuz whenever Purdue
    plays the remarkable Mrs. Keady gets major camera time haw haw haw haa.
    
    Btw, you should send Dickie a thank-u note for failing to comment on
    the wildly biased officiating last nite.
    
    And, as for your poor mouthing, just let me say that Riley had the body
    that I had envisioned when I first read that IU had signed a peckerwood
    center two eyars ago.  He's very strong, and coordinated.  Ditto for 
    McNary who also has some other tools.  Stanback could be a star as early
    as next year.  But apparently you consider Lawson and Nover as being at
    some level of preparation other than "raw" haw haw haw.
    
                                                           
    Big10 Tom 

Is it true that T and Ross surreptitiously purloined Lou Holtz' book and
have taken several pages from it?

Mike JN

>    Oh come ON Doug don't pretend that you don't know now !!

I honestly didn't.   I may have seen her on a tv game before, but it never
registered that she was that nasty looking.   I hope Gene is getting a little
action on the side from the Girl in Black or the Silver Twins....

>    ESPN must have some fun dudes on their crews, cuz whenever Purdue
>    plays the remarkable Mrs. Keady gets major camera time haw haw haw haa.

And Dickie Vitale is always commenting on how great she is... Must be looking
out of his blind eye...
    
>    Btw, you should send Dickie a thank-u note for failing to comment on
>    the wildly biased officiating last nite.
 
You mean the ones that kept Anderson and Cheaney in the game with four 
fouls each for the final 13 minutes?  The refs were typical Big 10 - bad
both ways... and it hurts the Big 10 later because they let SO much stuff
go... that come tournament time, the boys can't adjust.   {Watch and see
if the Big East's expirement with 6 fouls this year hurts later on}.

>    And, as for your poor mouthing, just let me say that Riley had the body
>    that I had envisioned when I first read that IU had signed a peckerwood
>    center two eyars ago.  He's very strong, and coordinated.

You've gotta be kidding!  Riley is a stiff... a plodding, oafish, stiff.
He makes Stephen Scheffler look like David Robinson.   Riley averages 
3.5 points a game and had a career high 10 yesterday {4 of them when
guarded by Anderson with four fouls} and you're talking like he's the
next Kent Benson.   I don't remember him grabbing more than a couple
boards.   Plus he's a senior!   A fifth year, I think!  And now he's 
"developing"?????  He's a stiff.

And as for poor mouthing, it's because this year's team is lousy.  
Two years ago when Troy Lewis, Everette Stephens, and Todd Mitchell were
in there, nobody was saying "they bite".   And I have high expectations
for next year and even higher for the year after.  1992-93 should be 
another Big 10 championship year for Keady... especially if he can find
a guard who can knock down the jumper.

>Lawson and Nover as being at some level of preparation other than "raw"

I would say Lawson and Riley are about equal - Indiana cornfed farmboys
who'll probably be driving Paw's John Deere in about 4 months.   Nover is
nothing but raw.   Yes, they needed a Funderburke to be a sure-thing Final
Four team.  But they play well enough to be a possible Final Four team.

The point you miss is that IU has 2 of the top five players in the Big 10,
a very steady set of guards, great team defense, and Bob Knight.   Purdue
has Jimmy Oliver {a second-tier Big 10 star},  a couple raw freshmen, and 
Gene Keady.   They'll win 50% in the Big 10 on guts alone... and that just
might get them in the tournament.... 

Doug, Big East also had the 6 foul rule last year and didn't seem to hurt
them in the tournment.  I don't recall anyone fouling out in the tournment
or coaches having to drastically change their rotations to protect players.


mike

    Balderdash, Ross.  You've cut loose a all Reality.  And you're not a 
    gracious Loser I might add.
    
    Big10 Tom  

    Bob Knight just HAS to be a shoo-in for Big10 CoTY right now!  
    
    Think a it: Bob has no center, no shooting guard, poor depth, no
    front-line widebody muscle-'bounds, a very very young team hurt by
    a highly-touted recruit who's washing out... and yet he's, what?, 
    13-1 and 3-1 and #3.
      
    True, the Hoosiers will slide once they hit the road against the
    tougher squads, and will probably slide as low as the high teens,
    but, hey, they've got a shot at 2nd in the conference and will
    surely make the tournament.
    
    Is it too early for kudos here?  No, I think not: Kudos Bob! 
    
    Big10 Tom

	
 Let him beat Randy Ayers' teams first then we can talk....

 mike    

I  don't know, T....

I've only seen Indy twice this year, but whether it's chemistry and
coaching, or talent.... they look like they could be a contendah!

Things are just starting, and I'm lookin forward to NCAA Tournament
already!

Mike JN

    I must be losing my mind.  I coulda swore that poor Bob started
    three guards, a swingman, and a shooting forward at center the
    other night!  And I musta hallucinated about the supposedly #3
    Hoosiers being dominated on the boards by 15 and having several
    insides shots either blocked or given up on.
    
    Reality check: The present IU squad will fold like a cheap tent
    against the likes of Arkansas or several other teams ranked 
    below them right now.  This is as good as it gets at #3, from
    here on it's all downhill.
    
    This is a very talented but one-dimensional fatally flawed IU team
    that'll end up losing several games and bowing out in the 2nd round
    of the NCAA tourney.
    
    MrObjectivityInSportsAnalysis

    I get a feeling that MrT will poor-mouth IU's talent until the day
    Knight starts 5 NBA All Stars.
    
    Dan

 How about them Badgers? Anyone give us a rundown on them? Blew Iowa
 away at home last night. Didn't see as much as would have like because
 of the war. Do we have a little guy here ready to knock heads with the
 big guys of Big ten/eleven/fifteen?

 mike

Big game tonight...

	#3 Ohio State versus #4 Indiana at Bloomington, IN... ESPN... 9:30

	Indiana blew out Iowa at Iowa Saturday... it was close for awhile.


Indiana must win.   The Big 10 title usually involves winning all {maybe one
loss} at home and beating all the bad teams on the road and splitting with
the good ones {Ohio State, Michigan State, Minnesota, Illinois}.   The
matchup I'm looking forward to is Jimmy Jackson vs Calbert Cheaney.  Two of
the three best players in the league {both soph's}.    Knight needs to find
someone to keep Perry Carter off the boards... hopefully, Anderson will show
some guts tonight.

Purdue lost again Saturday.   They've lost by one at Illinois, by three to
Indiana, and by a couple at Minnesota.  Losing the close ones points directly
to their guards - the weakest bunch in the Big 10.  Is it still poormouthing to
call a 2-3 team lousy?  

 And Ohio State blew out Illinois 89-55 on saturday so both teams are ready.
 Actually Doug, I'd look for Lawson to pull a surprise here and play well
 enough to off-set Carter. He lacks consistency but has played big in a couple
 of big games he's been involved in and will have a slight height advantage..

 first game of the night is SU/Georgetown so it has all the makings of one
 of the best Big Mondays in a long time. 7:30 est.

 and for the nighthawks and west coaster UNLV/UCSB at midnight...

 mike

> first game of the night is SU/Georgetown so it has all the makings of one
> of the best Big Mondays in a long time. 7:30 est.
> and for the nighthawks and west coaster UNLV/UCSB at midnight...

Wow!   We'll see #1, #3, #4 and whatever Syracuse is... and enough guys
to fill out two All-America teams:
	
	Larry Johnson           Stacy Augmon
	Billy Owens             ???? Anderson {drew a blank!}
	Dikembe Mutoumbo        Alonzo Mourning
	Calbert Cheaney         Anderson Hunt
	Jimmy Jackson           Damon Bailey {;-)}

Stompshin, BayWhine, BoobKnight,The Shirk!

This is why God created ESPN!

    
    OSU by 6... bank on it!
    

    This is the best Big Monday I cain remember.  And on ESPN so no rude
    interruptions by self-seeking war reporters anxious to explain what 
    they haven't seen, don't know, aren't sure of, or have already told you
    several hundred times! 
    
    >Indiana must win.
    
    Absolutely correct.  Only in the Big10, the dinosaur league that yet
    allows its fans a meaningful championship season fraught with early
    season tension, is this adrenaline-pumping pleasure possible.
    
    I'm buzzed already.  If Indiana gags tonight it's a dog fight for 2nd
    place baby!  Michigan State has regained its form, with Peplowski on
    a roll now, they mainhandled Minnesota until the very end, and then 
    held them off with superior beef.  
    
    >is it still poormouthing...
    
    Oh why don't you CAN IT buddy.  Minnesota's relatively dangerous.  And
    perhaps it's time for us to review Mene Gene's coaching.  Btw, Bob is
    winning his haid-to-haid with him.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Yea, I've been thinking about tonights "Big Monday" (not to mention
    clearly my schedule from 7:30pm until ???) and it really makes me
    appreciate the NCAA Tournament.
    
    Ya see, we've got four (4) teams in the top 10 (approx) unabashedly
    going at each other, mano-a-mano.  Two will win; two will lose.  Then
    they'll pick up and go at some other Top 20 team next game.
    
    Meanwhile UNLV, who everyone knows could beat the Nuggets on a bad
    night (*their* bad night, not Westhaid's bunch) playing (gasp) *Santa
    Barbara*.  YAWN.
    
    It's unfortunate that such a talented bunch can only battle the best a
    handful of times each year, and what's more, me_thinks their woeful
    schedule will cost them a Title.  They lucked out last year against
    Ball State, but, IMHO, will get knocked off by somebody this year,
    probably before the Final 4.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >How about them Badgers.
    
    Excellent question.  I've been meaning to write on them but what with
    the race war in the Gulf I'VE BEEN BUSY.
    
    I'd liken the Badgers to Kaintuck.  Against the Hawkeyes they shot an
    eye-popping 11-for-17 from The Land Of Trey.  Anybody who saw the CBS
    game Saturday against Michigan should take care to not be mislead:
    Yoder purposefully held back on the 3-pointers in order to exploit the
    Wolve's woeful lack of inside strength.  
    
    Ellenson, Douglass, Hisle, and especially Locum cain flat put it down
    from afar.  They also are fairly quick, and usually will run run run 
    what with their "big" guys being 6-6 jumping jack Willie Simms (their
    best player) and 6-6 Patrick Tompskins (the ultimate nuclear widebody,
    his bod makes Perry Carter and The Round Mound Of Rebound look like 
    hair stylists clipping locks at Chez Bruce, beauty salon for men).
    
    But Yoder may have sealed his fate losing at home like he did Saturday.
    What made it worse was how ultra-stupe Fisher did it: with 3 seconds
    left and Wisconsin in the backcourt a guard raced over and fouled the
    Badger's best free throw shooter, Hisle (1), and Fisher went to ice 
    him with a TO but in a frenzy of bench disorganization reminiscent of 
    Jim BayWhine failed to call it in time.
    
    Wisconsin still has a shot at the Big10's fourth spot in the tourney.
    The word in Mad City is that Yoder either cops it or he's done. 
    
    Big10 Tom                                                      

    I might say that I'm quite pleased that Bob took my advice to 
    heart and made the lineup changes I detailed for him last week.
    
    Bob has apparently made the decision to dump the hapless Matt 
    Nover and stick with the short-armed-but-6-10 redhaid Chris Lawson
    in the paint.  That's good.  Also, he's given a central role to
    his best overall guard Chris Reynolds, who's a_awesome defender
    and cain drive to the hoops so sweet, teaming him up with Jamaal
    Meeks and diminishing the PT of the horridly overhyped Damon.
    
    Now, if he'd just insist that Calbert haid fake more on his outside
    J from the standstill and drive to the hoop like only he cain, this
    squad could be ship-shape.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised if Bob puts Eric Anderon on Jim Jackson.
    
    Re: Big Monday
    
    The nicest thing about Big Monday is that it's the only day of the
    week we're not facing several ACC games on the tube.  Also, UCSB is
    thought to be UNLV's toughest conference game.
                                                  
    Big10 Tom

�    I might say that I'm quite pleased that Bob took my advice to 
�    heart and made the lineup changes I detailed for him last week.

T, do you have a hotline to the Great One, (a la the President and
Gorby?) or do you just send him tips from time to time ;^)

    
Enquiring and all that 
'Saw

    
    >do you have a hotline to the Great One,
    
    I send him a Federal Express package containing my thoughts after
    each game witnessed by me.  Xs & Os type stuff too complicated to
    go into here.  
    
    We used to speak on the phone quite a lot, but that hasn't happened
    since after the University of Richmond game...
    
    He *did* send me a letter this fall after the big Thanksgiving Feast
    final victory on the Bob vs. Dean debate congratulating me and saying
    how proud of me he was, however.
    
    Big10 Tom                       

>    I send him a Federal Express package containing my thoughts after
>    each game witnessed by me.  Xs & Os type stuff too complicated to
>    go into here.  

I'm impressed.  Good choice, Federal Express.  I saw a lot on the
games this weekend that Fed Ex is out to make you have a nice day.
I'll bet Bob appreciates that personal touch.
    
>    He *did* send me a letter this fall after the big Thanksgiving Feast
>    final victory on the Bob vs. Dean debate congratulating me and saying
>    how proud of me he was, however.

Which I'm sure is displayed prominantly in your home...

Congrats!
'Saw

>    Also, UCSB is
>    thought to be UNLV's toughest conference game.
  
    I think most would consider UNLV's toughest conference game to be at New
    Mexico State.  They are currently ranked 21st.
    
    Joe                                              
    
    
 

 UNLV has a non-conference game with Arkansas left on their schedule. This
 will be a tough game no matter what even tougher if it's at Arkansas.
 Agreed T, I've been touting Lawson since I saw him in the Maui Classic.
 I also remember the monster he had last year agianst Lou-do's jumping
 jacks.

 mike_who'll_be_in_the_cellar_tonight_while_the_wife_watches_the_classic_bitch

    
 

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-18-91)  NCAA
Date: 18 Jan 91 19:19:44 GMT
 
This league is indeed shaping up as the Big 3 and the Little 7, as
Michigan State joined the other two big boys (IU and OSU) at the top of
the conference, and really, should do nothing but get better.  The
Little 7 can probably be divided into Illinois/Purdue/Minnesota/Iowa,
plus maybe Wisconsin or Michigan, and then Northwestern at the end...
 
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#43 Michigan State 71, #62 ILLINOIS 68:  The tables turned on
	Illinois as it was the team which blew a big lead and lost near the
	end.  The Illini had a great first half, running off to a 37-27 lead
	at the break.  The lead balooned to 14 early in the second half
	(41-27) after two Deon Thomas shots, but then the Spartans started
	chipping away as Steve Smith did his damage (he scored 35 points).
	It was just 52-50 Illinois at the 11:54 mark.  The Illini got a
	three point play from Rennie Clemons, then went over 8 minutes
	before scoring another field goal.  By that time, State was up by
	four.  Illinois pulled within two with 1:21 left, and with :33 left,
	Steve Smith was called for traveling with MSU up 67-64.  Andy Kpedi
	nailed two free throws with :15.4 left, but Matt Steigenga answered
	with two of his own with :13.4 left for a 69-66 lead.  Clemons made
	a layup with 7 seconds left, but Smith finished the scoring with two
	free throws at the 6 second mark.  The Illini did not get much of a
	shot off at the end.  Mark Montgomery had 12 for MSU, while Clemons
	led Illinois with 17 and Andy Kaufmann had 16.  11,504 showed at the
	Hall...
 
#67 WISCONSIN 91, #49 Iowa 79:  Blowout City!!!  Wisconsin exploded
	to a 42-27 halftime edge on some great shooting, much from 6'7" John
	Ellenson (he was 4-5 from trifecta land in the first half).  Iowa
	put on a second half rally which got them as close as 80-68 with
	4:32 left (and the final score, of course), but Wisconsin then went
	on an 11-2 run to salt the game away finally (91-70).  This was
	Iowa's 14th straight Big Ten road loss.  Tim Locum whistled the nets
	for 25 points, including 5 for 6 treys.  Ellenson had 21, Willie
	Simms 15, and Patrick Tompkins and Larry Hisle each had 12.  Iowa
	was led by Val Barnes' 19 and Acie Earl's 12.  Wisconsin shot 34-57
	from the field.  10,362 approved of the proceedings...
 
#57 MICHIGAN 79, #234 Northwestern 68:  Michigan struggled for a
	while but then pulled away to beat the Cats.  NU led 33-32 at the
	break after Michigan had led 14-8.  The Wildcats led by as much as
	27-22.  But, Michigan ripped out early in the second half (Steve
	Fisher must have given a rousing halftime speech), and before you
	knew it the Wolverines were up 47-35 with 14:22 left.  Northwestern
	made various runs thereafter, but Michigan was never really in
	danger of losing.  They whipped the Cats on the boards 34-18.
	Demetrius Calip had 22 points, Kirk Taylor 21 and Eric Riley 13 for
	Michigan.  Don Brotz had 19 for Bill Foster and Todd Leslie 18.
	10,548 were on hand in Ann Arbor...
 
#55 MINNESOTA 59, #32 Purdue 56:  Purdue once again came up a day
	late and a dollar short, this time at Minneapolis.  But they are in
	every game until the end.  That's good enough, isn't it???  Last
	night, the Boilers held a 47-45 lead with just 2:51 remaining.
	That's when 35% shooter Arriel McDonald took over, hitting
	the tying shot, the go-ahead shot, another shot and all of his
	freebies.  In fact, the Gophers hit 14 of 15 second half charity
	tosses, not bad for a team which shoots just 68% from the line.
	Even the Gopher fans will agree that this was one of the most poorly
	played Big Ten contests they've seen in a long time.  The halftime
	score was 20-20, as both Kevin Lynch and Jimmy Oliver, the two "Top
	Guns" of their respective teams, shot airballs and generally looked
	awful.  Minnesota once led by 7 in the first half (17-10) in just a
	pathetic display of basketball.  Purdue scored the final four points
	of the first half to forge the tie, then hit the first five of the
	second half and you got the feeling that someone was finally taking
	charge.  But, the Gophers quickly closed to 27-26, and the lead then
	changed hands most of the way until McDonald's flurry.  The Gophers
	went ahead 53-48 before Purdue closed to 55-53 on an Oliver
	trey.  The Gophers then went up 59-53, on free throws, when Jimmy
	Oliver banked in a 35-foot prayer at the horn (why didn't he do that
	Monday night?).  McDonald scored 10 of his 12 points in the final
	2:01.  Lynch ended up 2-13 from the floor, and Oliver was 5-16, as
	both teams shot well below 50%.  Purdue was an incredible 5 for 23
	from three-point land.  Not running much offense lately, Gene...
	Craig Riley was the only bright spot, scoring 19 on 7-10 shooting
	and 5-5 from the stripe, if you can believe that.  Purdue's guards
	were a combined 3 for 16 from the field and scored only 9 points.
	Keady got the obligatory T, but Minnesota only got one point out of
	it.  15,058 fans were happy, but relieved to go home after this one...
 
 
Saturday:
 
	#55  Minnesota at #43 MICHIGAN STATE      Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#57  Michigan at #67 WISCONSIN            2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#62  Illinois at # 3 OHIO STATE           7:00 pm
	# 5  Indiana at #49 IOWA                  7:00 pm
	#234 Northwestern at NORTHEASTERN
 
Monday:
 
	# 3  Ohio State at #5 INDIANA             8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    3      4    Ohio State        14-0     4-0
    5      3    Indiana           15-1     3-0
   43     26    Michigan State    11-4     4-1
   62     36    Illinois          12-5     2-2
   55     44    Minnesota          9-5     2-2
   67     NR    Wisconsin          8-6     2-2
   49     24    Iowa              13-4     2-3
   32     40    Purdue            10-5     2-3
   57     NR    Michigan           8-7     1-4
  234     NR    Northwestern       5-9     0-5

Ohio State beat Indiana last night 93-85.    The Buckeyes pulled out to a 
18 point halftime lead as the Hoosiers couldn't hit anything from the outside.
Calbert Cheaney was particularly woeful early on.  In the second half, a team
of Cheaney, Greg Graham, Damon Bailey, Jamaal Meeks and Eric Anderson brought
the Hoosiers all the way back to close to 3 points.   In the end, they couldn't
stop Ohio State that ONE TIME they needed to.

You know, Kenny Anderson may put the fans in the seats, but I think Jimmy
Jackson will win you more ballgames in the NBA.    He was impressive.

    
    RE: .46
    
    So I was off by two... I knew the Bucks would come through. 

    That Bob had to give up on his stiff middlemen and go back to the
    3-guard lineup is unsurprising.  I think IU will want to get Lawson
    PT wherever possible, but he was clearly in way over his red haid
    last night with the nuclear widebody combo of Treg Lee and Perry 
    Carter, one time nearly missing the backboard entirely on a_attempted
    bank shot that was nearly blocked.
    
    IU is better in a 3-guard lineup cuz Lawson/Nover don't rebound anyway,
    and carry a heavy cost in muffed pass receptions, stupid fouls, and
    abject inability to participate in the running game.
    
    While I was sad to see the badly overrated Hoosiers' obvious flaws so
    brutally exposed, you have to credit Ohio State.  Jim Jackson is a
    first team All-America in my book.  And as a Big10 fan it's remarkable
    and pleasing to see how polished Carter and Lee are now, these guys 
    looked like hopeless stiffs a couple of years back, and that's great
    coaching.  
    
    A wagering friend of mine loaded up heavily on the Bucks last night,
    the book on IU was that they exhibited all the tell-tale signs of a
    badly overrated team: 1) many comeback victories against tougher comp,
    2) consistently outrebounded, 3) one dimensional (poor outside shooting),
    4) caught tougher opponents at right time (Louisville, Notre Dame, U. of
    Kaintuck, 5) unstable starting lineup and PT distribution... 
    
    Seeing some of the mismatches last night (Damon Bailey at forward vying
    with Treg Lee and Perry Carter on the boards, for instance) pretty much
    lays out the fact that the Hoosiers are naked against the quality teams
    and will not compete for the Big10 Title.  
    
    I'm sticking with my prediction that the Hoosiers will finish 3rd in the
    Big10 (behind Michigan State) and end up somewhere in the low teens in
    the polls.
    
    They're a small team unable to play the running game cuz they lack 
    widebodies, with the very unusual negative dimension that they are 
    susceptible to zones cuz they're poor outside shooters and to foul woes
    cuz they have no depth on the front-line.
    
    What we saw last night was the reality of Funderburke's departure and 
    the fack that Damon Bailey doesn't have the physical presence to ever 
    be a dominating player.  This is a team with a truckload of point 
    guards and two very very sweet fowards unable to operate optimally cuz
    of the lack of at least two more quality front-line talents.
    
    Big10 Tom

 That was a great game.  The Buckeyes are truly loaded and they've got
 Final Four written all over them.
 
 Indiana is not as bad off as you make them out to be.   They could have
 used a little better free throw shooting last night, for instance.  They
 must have missed at least 10 charity stripers.
 
 Calbert Cheaney is the real thing and Damon Bailey, I think, will surprise
 you when he's all done in Camp Bob.   He does have an awareness of the
 court despite whatever physical limitations he might have.   That will pay
 off in the right spot at the right time someday in the future.
 
 I also noticed that a chair violently stood there against The General's
 foot.   Nice to know he hasn't mellowed out too much.
 
 Also, this was *EXACTLY* the kind of game (9:30pm tube start on a school
 night) that he was bitching and moaning about a few years ago.  Has he
 changed that tune, too, or was he told to just shut up and play them ???
 
 Vitale is a moron.   He needs a Quaalude or ten.
 
 Bob Hunt

 Bob, he'd need atleast the 10....He's the worst part of the package
 perhaps someday ESPN will realize it. Tough guy for them to give up though
 cause he's friends with all the coaches and gets the tough interviewees
 for them even if his questions are creampuff...

 Yup great game last night. I agree with Bob on Damon and T on Lee and
 Carter. I wanted to give Jackson POY of the Big ten last year for pete
 sakes and he's only gotten better has Brown and everyone else.

 Ayers' star is rising fast. OSU better make him a quality offer soon...

 mike 

    There I was gettin' ready for game time last night when the wife
    unloads my 5-day old on me.  "No problem - get some sleep." I tell her,
    knowing that any son of mine is gonna love this kind of action!
    
    Well he was fine at first, but it seemed the more the Buckeyes poured
    it on in the first half, the worse he got.  By halftime I was left
    holding a screaming ball of flesh.  Slobber was dripping down his face;
    he stunk like high heaven; he was wailing like a Tel Aviv missile-alert
    siren.
    
    And then it hit me.  My son was undoubtedly doing a *very* good
    MrT impersonation!!!111  
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I'm not making them out "to be that bad."  3rd place in the Big10
    and a top20 ranking is pretty good, but when you lose your top
    recruit and of necessity revert to 3-guard lineups and end up losing
    at home I think you see my point.
    
    This team is dangerous when they're shooting well, and only then.
    They're #3 ranking was a joke.  The Hoosiers have the Spartans in
    E. Lansing.  The bookies have MSU winning that one, which would
    then make IU a long shot for the Big10 Title and would see them
    at about #15 in the polls.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Better get used to them high expectations MisterT.  I distinctly recall
    Dickie say last night that either IU or Duke will be his preseason #1
    pick for '91-'92.
    
    BTW, I disagree with all the anti-Vitale comments.  He's extremely
    knowledgeable and well-prepared.  As far as I'm concerned he's *way*
    above the competition (Packer, McGuire, etc.) in terms of overall
    knowledge of the game, and he's always up on the recruiting wars.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

   � BTW, I disagree with all the anti-Vitale comments.  He's extremely
   � knowledgeable and well-prepared.  As far as I'm concerned he's *way*
   � above the competition (Packer, McGuire, etc.) in terms of overall
   � knowledge of the game, and he's always up on the recruiting wars.
    
    That's fine.  All well and good but does he have to scream and call him
    "General Robert Montgomery Knight" fifteen times a minute ???
    
    I mean, the man is the living epitome of the desperate need to push the
    "Mute" button on remote controls all over college hoopdom.
    
    Howard Cosell's laurels have been passed on most admirably, I'd say.
    
    Bob Hunt

I also think Vitale is head and shoulders above the rest.   He knows more
about the recruits, is great with getting into the spirit of college hoop,
and never is dull.   Billy Packer is okay x-an-o's wise, but has the
personality of what he is - a former ref.   Al McGuire - yuk!  He rarely
seemed to know who was on the court... vastly overrated in my book.

And let me say that I've been very impressed with Jim Valvano in the studio.
His blend of self-deprecating humor and knowledge of the game is refreshing.
I had lower expectations based on his stint with the "Wild and Wacky World
of Sports" {or whatever it was called}, but he's really surprised me.

Since MrT was man enough to not blame the refs last night, I will.  While
they didn't cost IU the game, they were as bad as usual in the Big 10.  There
never seems to be any cohesiveness among the refs.  One guy will call 
everything, one guy will call nothing, and the other one will only make
bad calls.   They've been bad for as long as I've watched the Big 10 - 1979.

 Nobody is denying Vitale's prep or knowledge it's his delievery I can't
 handle. It's one thing to be excited but he's excited to the point that
 he distracts from the game. He screams on routine plays like somebody
 just won a championship for petesakes and at first his top 5 or 10 lists
 we're ok but now he's got one for everything and I'm really not all that
 interested in everything that he thinks. He also has a bad habit of trumping
 the players that he is watching. Last night he was pushing JJ for top
 small forward in the country ahead of Owens. Next week he'll do a big east
 game and Owens will be the greatest thing since sliced bread.....

 Valvano is good in the studio, he's good on the air with Brent...

 for analyist I'll take Rafferty any day over Dicky. His knowledge is no less
 his delievery is better. He doesn't have the recruiting down like Dicky
 though...

 mike

    Rafferty is the poor mans Vitale.  As to his lists, I find them
    entertaining.  A welcome diversion from the usual boring color
    commentator.  The fact that he gets excited is, IMO, a *strength*, not
    a weakness.  He sincerely enjoys his work, and the enthusiasm is
    contagious.  Lastly, you imply that Vitale is inconsistent, one week
    calling JJ the best small forward, the next crowning Billy Owens the
    best.  I have NEVER caught Vitale being inconsistent.  In fact it's
    usually the opposite.  He labels somebody his best (in this case
    Jackson) and when Owens is playing he'll point out that he still
    considers Jackson the best.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Chris if you didn't disagree with everything I said, we'd have a problem. ;^)
 Sure at first he was refreshing and his ethusiasm was good but now he has
 become a caricuture of himself and goes overboard with it. Also does his
 mouth ever stop? Besides he fawns all over UNC and Deanho, need I another
 reason for my dislike?

 ;^)

 mike

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-22-91)  NCAA
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 1991 18:39:09 GMT
 
Saturday's Results:
 
#43 MICHIGAN STATE 73, #55 Minnesota 64:  The Spartans ripped out
	to an 18-point halftime margin and coasted home.  State led 45-27 at
	the break as Steve Smith had 19 in the half and generally had
	everyone shaking their heads.  Unfortunately, the Spartans had
	trouble sustaining this effort in the second half, as the Gophers
	had the lead cut to 5, 53-48, with 10:14 still to play.  But,
	a 3-point play and a trey by Smith kept Minnesota from getting
	any closer.  Smith has scored at least 20 points in 23 consecutive
	games.  Arriel McDonald, who has starred lately for the Gophers, led
	Minnesota with 25 points.  Kevin Lynch was off again, connecting on
	just 4 of 16 field goal attempts.  Minnesota outscored the Spartans
	by 10 from the field.  Another sellout of 15,138 at the Breslin
	Center...
 
#57 Michigan 69, #67 WISCONSIN 68 (OT):  It must be hell to be a
	Wisconsin basketball fan.  They saw the Badgers squander a 16-point
	second half lead and lose in overtime.  The Badgers led 35-21 at the
	break in totally dominating the Wolverines in the first half (just
	like they did against Iowa last week).  Wisconsin hit the first
	bucket of the second half to go up 37-21, then the roof caved in at
	Wisconsin Fieldhouse.  The Wolverines already had the lead cut down
	to 5 or less by the time both teams were in the 40's, and it was
	close the rest of the way although Michigan never tied it until the
	59-all score at the end of regulation.  Michigan opened up a 64-61
	lead in the OT, but Wisconsin regained the lead on free throws.
	Tony Tolbert gave Michigan a 69-68 lead with :05 left on a
	15-footer, and an apparent victory as the Wolverines broke up a
	last-ditch scoring opportunity.  BUT, a foul was called at the horn
	on Michael Talley, and Larry Hisle had a chance to win it.  But, he
	missed BOTH free throws, with no time on the clock, and a wild
	Michigan celebration ensued.  Hisle had been 7 for 8 from the stripe
	in the game before the misses.  He looked awful as he left the
	court.  Talley led Michigan with 18, including several great drives
	to the hoop for layins as Michigan's quickness won out.  Patrick
	Tompkins had 19 to lead Wisconsin.  Michigan outscored Wisconsin
	from the field by 22 points.  11,400 very disappointed fans in
	Madison...
 
#3  OHIO STATE 89, #62 Illinois 55:  It was close for a half, due
	to Buckeye turnovers, but Ohio State woke up in the second half and
	forced Illinois into a school-record 32 turnovers with it's swarming
	full-court, pressing defense.  The first half was very sloppy, with
	OSU leading just 30-27 at the break and neither team playing well.
	The first couple of minutes of the second half were the same, but
	then the OSU turnover patrol started.  Once the score reached 45-35,
	the inevitable occurred.  The crowd and Ohio State team went on a
	frenzy, and the score progressed to 63-43, then 70-45, and shortly
	thereafter the Buckeyes stretched the lead to 30 points and beyond.
	Jim Jackson led a balanced attack with 21 points.  Andy Kaufmann had
	14 for Illinois, even though Lou Henson benched him for 12 minutes
	of the first half in an effort to obtain greater teamwork.  There
	were 53 turnovers in all in this game.  As usual, 13,276 rowdy ones
	filled St. John Arena...
 
#5  Indiana 99, #49 IOWA 79:  The Hoosiers broke away from a 40-40
	halftime deadlock to route the Hawkeyes and their swiss-cheese
	defense.  Calbert Cheaney scored 30 points and Eric Anderson had 14
	to lead the Hoosiers.  Iowa coach Tom Davis described his team as
	"The reality is we just weren't up to it tonight... Maybe it was
	fatigue on our part".  Iowa led 43-40 early in the second half on an
	Acie Earl three-point play, but then IU went on a 17-5 run to go up
	59-50 with 14:55 left.  IU incredibly hit 14 of it's first 16 shots
	in the second half and ended up 61% from the field.  That's pretty
	tough to beat.  The Hoosiers maintained control of the game
	thereafter.  Earl led Iowa with 18 points.  The Hoosiers only hit 23
	of 35 freebies, before 15,500 at Iowa City...
 
NORTHEASTERN 84, #234 Northwestern 79:  The Huskies held off the
	Wildcats in this "Meeting of the Norths".  The Wildcats were down by
	5 at the break, 38-33, so they did make a game of it.  Northeastern
	won it's 6th straight, while NU has a losing streak going of at
	least 6.  Todd Leslie led the Cats with 22 points before 2,418 in
	Boston...
 
 
Monday Result:
 
#3  Ohio State 93, #5 INDIANA 85:  The Buckeyes beat the Hoosier
	team, the wild crowd, Mike and Dick, and the zebras.  Pretty
	good trick, eh?  Why is it that every time Indiana shoots within 10
	feet of the basket, the refs automatically blow the whistle?  Time
	and again in the second half last night, this happened even though
	the Buckeye defender did nothing but stand his ground, put his arms
	straight up and not jump!  Yet, those moving screens by Indiana
	(Bailey has learned well) went uncalled...  Then, the announcing
	zoo-crew of Mike Patrick and Dick Vitale seemed to question every
	call against Indiana in the second half.  Come on guys, I thought
	you were supposed to be neutral?  The game?  Well, OSU put on a
	clinical performance in the first half, even though IU went to
	the line 17 times before the break.  The Buckeyes led 21-12 halfway
	through it and had it up to 48-29 at the intermission.  The swarming
	OSU press had IU in a tizzy, as the Hoosiers had trouble just
	passing the ball or dribbling it.  Halftime came none too early for
	Bob Knight's crew.  Several Buckeyes were in foul trouble in the
	first half already, and both Jim Jackson and Perry Carter played
	only 9 minutes appiece due to it.  It was business as usual early in
	the second half for the Buckeyes, stretching the lead to 22 points
	on several occasions before IU finally got to it.  One 9-2 run got
	it going, but the Buckeyes seemed to get the lead back to 14 or 15
	without much trouble.  It was still 75-63 Buckeyes when IU finally
	broke the door down, and it got as close as 82-79 in the final
	2 minutes.  This game was not really decided until the final 25
	seconds as the Hoosiers finally missed a couple of shots and a
	couple of free throws.  Ohio State had the uncanny ability of
	hitting the crucial shot each time it was needed.  Though I don't
	have the final stats, Jamaal Brown had a career game for the
	Buckeyes, with 29 points.  A great win for the Buckeyes, and a
	great comeback for Indiana, as the Hoosiers really dialed up the
	defense in the second half.  The usual rabid 17,000+ filled the
	red, white and blue Assmebly Hall...
 
 
Wednesday:
 
	#43 Michigan State at #32 PURDUE   7:00 pm CST
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    3      4    Ohio State        16-0     6-0
   43     26    Michigan State    12-4     5-1
    5      3    Indiana           16-2     4-1
   62     36    Illinois          12-6     2-3
   32     40    Purdue            10-5     2-3
   55     44    Minnesota          9-6     2-3
   67     NR    Wisconsin          8-7     2-3
   49     24    Iowa              13-5     2-4
   57     NR    Michigan           9-7     2-4
  234     NR    Northwestern       5-10    0-5

    I learned long ago that one dares cry about obviously damaging 
    officiating after a win.  I'll say this, though: Used to be Bob
    got you +6 points a game with his intimidation act.  After a while
    it became "de rigeur" among refs - especially Big10 refs, the nation's
    worst - to do Bob up.  A ref could make a name for himself that way,
    Ed Hightower for example.  Eventually, Bob recognized this and now 
    he's one of the quietest coaches in the league.  But his legacy isn't
    yet shaken and now I rate Bob at a -6 points, with Mene Gene being
    the King of the Sideline (he even blows up when he *gets* a call!).
    
    As for the Hoosiers, they've played two blue chip clubs and the games
    were similar: nearly blown out, hanging on in the -15 to 20 range,
    the blue chip team loses concentration and hustle, and IU reverts to 
    a quick 3-guard lineup and scrapes back to make the loss look decent
    in the papers.  That isn't the mark of a #3 club. 
    
    WARNING: Watch out for Michigan State, Peplowski iand Steigenga are
    rolling now, and their guards have improved some, along with Smith
    playing more under control.  State has a shot at the Bucks for the
    Big10 Crown.
    
    Dropping to the 4-10 slots in the Big10, here's how I rank their
    "upset quotient":
    
    1. Illini (Deon be baaaad, Kaufman is a scorer, Kpedi a blocker)
    2. Iowa (Earl is 2nd best center behind Carter, great young talent)
    3. Purdue (burly, deep front-line but cruddy guards except for Trice)
    4. Wisconsin (it's 3-point time baby!!)
    5. Minnesota (2 senior starters will come on, youngsters improving)
    6. Michigan (great small men, but Riley's a bust)
    7. Northwestern (decimated by departures, a year of great let-down)
    
    Big10 Tom

    PROOF !!  INCONTRAVERTABLE PROOF OF ANTI-BOB ANTI-IU HYPE !!
    
    I just watched a tape of the Buckeyes-Hoosiers clash with a close
    friend who's a_OSU grad (he insisted).  Everytime Damon Bailey
    was playing in and around the basket (which was a lot in the 2nd
    half, when he checked up at forward) and jumped up to the hoop I
    forced him to slo-mo to this alleged 39" leaper and freeze frame
    him at his apex.  The highest I caught him going was maybe, and
    this is a stretch, 18" (I have a_eye for this particular length
    cuz it's along the lines of my johnson ;^).  On one particular play
    his main, Treg Lee, was coming in for a lay-in, Damon went for the
    block, leaping, and his hand barely reached the rim.  Treg dumped
    in the two with impunity.
    
    Damon has great body control and cain drive to the hoop (though
    with his poor leaping ability he frequently gets his shots blocked
    or changed), but I challenge anybody out there to send me a tape 
    where he demonstrates any kind of mogambo leaping ability (i.e., with
    his haid and elbows up around the hoop, as is common with super leapers,
    ex-Hoosier Keith Smart for example).
    
    And speaking of Smart - a *real* leaper - I remember *him* grabbing
    'bounds against big guys and even blocking their shots.  Ain't seed 
    that yet with "superstar" Damon.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Damon had at least one very agressive over-the-top-from-behind block on
    a Buckeye down in close to the hoop in the 2nd half.
    
    I don't know if it was 39" in the air but he was "up there" for sure.
    
    Bob Hunt
    
    
    
    
    P.S.  And I'm the Queen of England if your Johnson is anywhere near as
    "tall" as Bailey's max vertical leap.   Besides, it's the thickness
    that counts anyway.  Ever seen Shack's forearms, yeah, well, that's me,
    pal.  Pure heft.   Whomp.   :-) :-)

Purdue upset Michigan State {thanks to MrT's KOD} 62-51 and are now 3-3 in
the league, 11-5 overall.  

    
    
    	These vertical spec's are about as accurate as the NFL 40 yard
    times we see.  Most of those are done under very controlled
    circumstances and are hard to duplicate under game conditions.
    
    	As for the vertical question, if Bailey were 6'2''(don't know his
    exact height) and he had a 39'' vertical, that would put his haid only
    7'' under the rim.  Seven inches sounds like a lot, but the NBA and the
    NCAA have gone to the smaller boards and now the bottom of the rim 
    bracket is only 6 inches from the rim.  So, Bailey would be in effect
    hitting his haid on the backboard with a 39 in vertical with a height
    of 6'2''.  This doesn't even take account for arm length.  Assuming
    that he has "average" arms, his sleeve length is probably around 35-
    36 inches.  If he held his arms overhead and coupled with that 39in
    vertical, this would put his hands almost 3 feet over the rim!
    
    	As you cain see, this is kinda unlikely...I'm from Mo. so show me!
    
    These stats are highly inflated in my book.
    
    							bill..g.
    

    >Purdue upset Michigan State {thanks to MrT's KOD}
    
    Well this about sez it all now don't it?
    
    Poor-mouthing at its ultimate.  A Boiler alum publicly decrying a
    Purdue win as a_unfortunate product of some kinda kiss of death.
    This main engages here in what amounts to a_analytical variant of
    the game Naked Twister, controting, deforming, perverting good old
    rah-rah sports fervor into a bottom-feeding species of Machiavellian
    rhetoric.
    
    As for me, Dougie, I'll pass on this twisted game you play: *I* will
    root for *my* alma mater regardless of the consequences in notes. And
    I ain't gonna say "I hate to tell you I  told you so" cuz I DON'T hate
    to tell you I told you so cuz I DID tell you so but noooOOOooo you
    couldn't muster the requisite intellectual honesty to accede to the 
    self-evident Truth that Purdue is loaded with a mogambo front-line and
    frosh Linc Darner is bona-fide Big10 RoY meat cuz he shut down the
    league's PoY last nite maino-a-maino *HA* !!
    
    Big10 Tom 

    >This doesn't even take account for arm length.  Assuming
    >that he has "average" arms, his sleeve length is probably around 35-
    >36 inches.  If he held his arms overhead and coupled with that 39in
    >vertical, this would put his hands almost 3 feet over the rim!
    
    Only if his arm were attached to the top of his head!
    
    Dan           

    
    re: dan
    
    	Wiseguy... O.K. if he were normal, his reach over the rim would be
    about 2 feet over the rim which still translates into an extraordinary
    leap.  I'm still skeptical!
    
    							bill..g.
    

    bill..g., you're absolutely right about specs measured in tests 
    versus under real conditions.  SuperStiff Matt Nover, Indiana's
    starting "center" is a perfect example.  He was maybe the best
    high jumper in state H.S. history.  But when he *does* jump during
    games it's usually only a modest leap cuz the leaping technique 
    that got him over a 7' bar in the field is so excruciatingly slow
    as to be unusable in hoops, where the quickness of a leap is more
    important than its height.  More often than not Nover doesn't jump
    at all.  The only time I've seen his jumping prowess is when he's
    had the uncontested layup, which in his career has happened maybe
    twice.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Carolina's win @ Purdue is starting to look better-and-better. 
    Remember, we played 'em *before* they lost their best guard!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>           -< **Attention NCAA Selection Committee!  ATTENTION!!!** >-

This is what NC State is saying after beating top 10 Duke.

TTom

    Can someone explain to me what's all about the BIG TEN and the PAC TEN.
    I follow the games as much as possible on Eurosport and in the
    conference, but it seems that in controversy to the NBA the overall
    standings are a minor priority regarding to the league.
    Example in precedent reply that Carolina has now 3-3 in the league and
    11-5 overall???
    Can someone show also the standings for all the leagues at this moment?
    
    Patrick

    I'll try to help with some of it.
    
    In the US, there are so many colleges that play sports that they
    can't all play each other.  Colleges and universities that are of
    a similar size, place a similar emphasis on sports (and particular
    sports within the set of sports available to play) and geographically
    close have formed leagues.  Schools in the league play each
    other a set number of times each year and end the season with a
    league champion.  
    
    However, most of these schools want to play more
    games than there are other teams in their league, so they set up
    games with additional schools that they believe will accomplish
    a number of goals.  One might be getting a win, so their program
    will look good to the athletes they are trying to recruit and the
    pro scouts looking at their athletes.  Another might be that they
    think it will be a good "draw" - a team that will bring either TV
    viewers or lots of spectators or both.  A third might be stronger
    competition, so that their players improve by playing a tougher
    opponent.  There are some schools (Notre Dame is one) who are such
    a good draw that they have chosen not to belong to a league, but
    schedule all their games "independently" - hence they are called
    independents.
    
    The Big Ten is a league of 10 large universities in the mid-West 
    (Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa).  
    The Pac Ten is a set of 10 large universities on the western coast 
    (California, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico and Arizona - maybe a 
    coupla other states).  Because the schools are so big, they have lots 
    of alumnae who want to watch their games.  They also put a lot of
    emphasis on sports, and are regarded as the training/proving ground
    for our professional leagues.  There are other leagues which share
    some characteristics with these two - the ACC (Atlantic Coast
    Conference) gets a lot of air-time in this file for example.  
    
    Hope this helps.  I'll let others post standings :-)
    
    A&W

    
    Been taking John Hendry lessons, A&W?
    

    Can someone tell me who Arkansas lost to?  I'm wondering how 17-0 OSU
    can still be ranked behind them.  OSU has beaten several good teams:
    @Michigan,@Indiana,Georgetown(neutral),So Miss,Iowa...  of course, they
    played a Georgetown type schedule for the first 10 games or so.
       

Arkansas lost early to Arizona, I think in the NIT preseason.

TTom

    Groaner, another problem the Bucks have credibility wise is that 
    they beat Gougetown sans Alonzo Sneering, their best player.  I
    think the Buckeyes cain play with anybody right now, and may be 
    the best team in the nation.  They were here last night and phsycially
    manhandled the Golden Goofers.  They have all the pieces:
    
    Superstar fwd		Jim (aka JJ)
    
    Widebody fwd		Treg
    
    Nuclear widebody center	Perry
    
    Haidy playmaker		Baker
    
    3-point/defensive ace	Jamaal
    
    Bench			quick, big, hustling Jent et al
    
    The Buckeyes are clearly the class of the league.  I think the key for
    them is that they're based upon 3 widebody musclemen who cain 'bound and
    run the floor, which puts them in a position to run with UNLV, Arkansas,
    or anybody else with impunity.  Arkansas has no Jim.  I wonder if Larry
    Johnson is up to Jim's snuff.  Jim cain block, 'bound, pass, run, drive,
    and oh btw knock down the NBA trey.  Jamaal emerging as a 3-point artist
    slams the final nail in the coffin for the Little 9.
    
    Next year they pick up ThunderBurp, and go preseason #1.  (Isn't Perry 
    the only senior fer cripesakes?!)
    
    re: Bob & Ayers
    
    Turns out there's a big connection here: Bob set up Randy with his first
    job as asst. at Army, and played a role in getting him hired on as asst.
    at Bob's alma mater, and recommended him for the haid coaching post.
    
    Turns out that Ayers spoke at length with Bob before taking the chance 
    on ThunderBurp.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Thanks for the quick response, but still one question.
    Whenever they say here in Europe (in my case Belgium) that a certain
    university (eg. UCLA) has won the university title, does this mean that
    they won the PAC 10 competition or is it (this is what I think) that
    they won the play-offs between al the conferences (Big East,Big
    10,ACC,...)?
    
    Patrick

C'Mon T.. let's not get too carried away.  I've seen Larry Johnson, and
JJ is no Larry Johnson.   

JJ is the next Joe Dumars.
Larry Johnson will be the next Karl Malone.

    re .88
    
    I'm not positive without better context.  The NCAA(National Collegiate
    Athletic Association) has a post-season tournament in basketball.
     Takes place in March.  Automatic entries in the tournament are
    given to the winners of designated leagues, plus a few (somebody
    help out here - how many?) slots for teams that are either independents
    or did well overall.  The winner of that tournament is the NCAA
    champ.  Last year I believe the winner was University of Nevada
    - Las Vegas (UNLV)??  The format of the tournament, invitations
    to participate, and seedings and locations of the games are all
    subjects of intense debate.  One of the consequences is that a team
    with an excellent overall record may not even get to play in the
    tournament, or a team that did well early but has injuries toward
    the end will be defeated early on.  Converses are, of course, also
    true.
    
    One of the difficulties with football is that there is no post-season
    tournament sanctioned by the NCAA to determine the overall "winner"
    - hence all the verbage here and other places about the "mythical
    number one".

 How'd the Badgers make out last night? They were in the process of dumping
 NW before I drop off....I really like this team and look for them to pull
 off an upset of one of the Big 3 before it's all over....

 they've got to be one of the most unselfish teams I've watched this year..

 Arkansas was cruising against Zona holding a 9 point lead and Zona completely
 baffled. Ollie Miller took his 4th personal and a Technical. Zona hit all 4
 foul shots and then a 2 with the ball and steamrolled that into something
 like a 25-6 run to finish the game....

 JJ has the potential Doug to be much more than Larry cause he can play more
 than one posistion and play them all exceptionally well.......

 Larry's a 4 maybe a 3 but I don't think he has the ball handling skills to
 be more than an occasional 3....

 mike

    Jim cain score with impunity, only he digs passing so much that he
    dishes off a lot and therefore only scores 25 ppm.  This is where 
    Jim rises above Steve Smith or Calbert.  I think that Larry Johnson
    is a bit overrated cuz they play the kind of game where spectacular
    moments are maximized.  Jim is no showboat, just Mr. Efficiency.  He
    also plays with great emotion and plays great D.
    
    Wisconsin's Patrick Tompkins scored a career-high 29 pts. last night.
    This team looke to be a low rent Willie Simms road show, but players
    are emerging, Tompkins among them.  Yoder seems to've decided to go
    with the trey against the good teams and to rely on his two fine 
    widebodies in the paint against the lesser teams.  Wisconsin-Purdue
    is gonna be a mighty interesting game from the development standpoint,
    both have tournament potential if they cain show any consistency.
    
    Indiana knocked off the Wolverines last night in Crisler.  A_important
    win for them, losing there would've pretty much ruined them on the
    season.  But, again, they were outrebounded by 10 by a team that's
    *very* weak inside and went pretty much with 3 guards all the way.
    Gregg Graham emerged with a big 19 point night, helping Indiana to a 
    road win even though Cheaney shot poorly (17), Anderson chipped in 15.
    
    From the box it looks like Bob kept his two stiff middlemen on the
    bench where they cain do no harm.  Michigan is an ideal matchup foe for
    the Hoosiers (small, not one widebody, poor shot selection, etc.), but
    a pattern seems to be emerging where Indiana plays well against the
    weak teams but brushes with being blown off the floor against the good
    ones, especially the big ones (IU had to come back from way down against
    lowly - but big - Notre Dame).  I look towards the Hoosier-Illini clash
    for a reading as to how they're likely to fare in the tournament.
    
    The Hoosiers have State tomorrow in E. Lansing.  That could be real 
    ugly for them.  Especially now that State is fighting for its life,
    they'll be giving no breaks (except maybe bones underneath).
    
    Big10 Tom 
    
    

T, and others: What's the deal with the other Ohio St Forward, Brown. He
had 20 or so the other night against IU. Was that a career game?

Much obliged

TTom

    TTom, I think Brown had 28 or 29 in the OU-IU game.  They said his
    previous high was 20.  He killed the Hoosiers early with the trey.
    
    From what was said, I got the feeling that he isn't usually much of an
    offensive player, but they were going with the hot hand.
    
    Dan

    Jamaal's their off-guard.  Word has it that once the Bucks got thru
    the Gougetown-style cupcake portion of their schedule Ayers noticed
    a lot of doubling on JJ.  Remember, Lee and Carter aren't jump shooters
    by any stretch.  Baker is an excellent driver but not a great J-shooter
    either.  This left Jamaal, who wasn't so much of bad shooter before but
    just got the green light for the first time recently.  He continued
    with the treys and Js last night against Minnesota.  Everybody's looking
    for Brown to keep shooting from the outside to keep the court open for
    them.  In the Big10 you must do this or you get killed with zones by
    teams like State and Purdue.  A shooting guard was the only missing part
    but now Ayers thinks he has that too.
    
    Jent, the scrapper swingman off the bench is a fair jump shooter
    himself (I've played street hoops with him when he was in high school
    in Jersey, he liked to shoot from 20+ there).
    
    Impressive to me is Robinson, the 7 ft. stiff substitute center.  IU
    should have a stiff this good.  He's really picked up some skills that
    were absent last year, fouling less, playing some D, and actually 
    leaving the floor on his "jumps."  Obviously, he'd be the best center
    in a decade if he were on the Hoosier squad.
    
    Many people at Williams last night commented on 3 things:
    
    1) Bucks' strength, muscle, studliness even down to lil' Baker.
    2) Bucks' depth.
    3) They have this look of total-control confidence about them, but 
       also look like they're on a mission.  They have the air of a champ
       about them, like they cain turn it on whenver needed.  Perry Carter
       is their emotional leader; JJ is their star.
    
    Big10 Tom

    If the NCAA tourney were held today my money might very well get behind
    the Buckeyes to win the whole enchilada.  They're tough, man.  *TOUGH*.
    
    Trouble is though the NCAA crowns its champeen by the team that
    exhibits *season-ending* peak form.  Anything less just gets ya
    a_excellent loss label.  In both '84 and '87 Carolina played stellar
    hoops during the season, easily as strong as the '82 bunch.  Both
    of these squads went undefeated in ACC conference play - an incredible
    accomplishment.  Alas though, neither squad even got to the Final 4.
    
    What's my point?  Simply that it seems to be a rare occurence that a
    team playing as well as OSU is right now will win a Title, or even make
    it to Indy.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    ACCCrisp, must you drag the Buckeyes down into the mire that your
    choke-a-holic hero has made for himself?  Understand that for this
    self-serving analogy of yours to work OSU'd have to be in this 
    position 8 years out of 10 for three decades and STILL have only 
    the one Title that they do have.
    
    Nice try, though.
    
    If IU loses at State they could drop out of the top20, which would
    be the biggest slide seen since the paper tiger UVA gridders.

    Big10 Tom

    Your outrageously false exagerations aside, I want it known that I'm
    serious here.
    
    When was the last time a team playing as well as OSU is right now in
    mid/late January gone on to win a Title?
    
    The '82 Heels might be the last one ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-24-91)  NCAA
Date: 24 Jan 91 18:32:52 GMT
 
[Here's a little tidbit from Lou Henson yesterday to help everyone get
focused for this coming Monday's Iowa at Illinois extraveganza:
 
"It'll be a long, long time before that feeling (anti-Iowa) changes.
Our players are close to Deon Thomas, just as they were before he came
to Illinois, and they know what he went through during the past year,
and why he went through it.  When a staff does what the Iowa staff did,
using tactics to attempt to destroy a young man and a basketball
program, you can't help but feel that way.  We won't soon forget it, and
I can't say everything is fine because it's not.  We're not letting what
Iowa did slide by."
 
An unrelated quote from Tom Davis, when asked about the "vengeful nature
of the Illinois crowd":
 
"They (Illinois) did a terrific job with that last year.  It's a tough
place to play, but you have to prepare for that everywhere you go in the
Big Ten.  I approach it like any other game and I'll try to keep my club
focused on the game."
 
Bruce Pearl plans to attend Monday's game...]
 
 
Wednesday's Results:
 
 
#29 PURDUE 62, #30 Michigan State 51:  Purdue's offensive funk
	continued during the first 12 minutes of this game, but then
	everything changed and the Boilers won a big ballgame.  With just
	under 8 minutes remaning in the first half, Michigan State led 20-9.
	But, then it was the Spartans turn to cool, as Purdue ran off 15
	straight points to go ahead and never trail again.  A couple of
	baskets were traded to produce a 28-23 Purdue advantage heading into
	the locker room.  State managed to tie the game at 34 with 15:05 to
	play on a Steve Smith trey, but Purdue then gained a 7-point
	advantage at 43-36.  MSU came back with 5 straight to cut the lead
	to 2 with 7:54 left, but Purdue followed with a 5-2 run to go ahead
	48-43.  The lead was still 5 at 52-47 when Purdue blew out to a
	59-47 advantage.  An Andy Penick basket at :49 ended another MSU
	scoring drought.  Twelve of Purdue's final 14 points came at the
	stripe as the Spartans attempted to stay close by fouling.  Linc
	Darner was the offensive and defensive star for Purdue, scoring 16
	points and helping to hold Smith to just 20 points (his average is
	28.1).  Smith was the only Spartan in double figures.  Matt
	Steigenga only managed 4 points.  Mike Peplowski had 9 points and 9
	boards.  Jimmy Oliver added 15 for Purdue, and Chuckie White had 13
	points and 6 carroms.  14,123 at Mackey Arena...
 
    [....]

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-25-91)  NCAA
Date: 25 Jan 91 17:19:42 GMT
 
For those of you who keep track, Purdue's 26-game winning streak against
Wisconsin will be put to the test tomorrow in Madison.  January 1977
marked the last Badger win in this series, a two-pointer at Wisconsin
Fieldhouse...
 
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#6  Indiana 70, #51 MICHIGAN 60:  Michigan hung tough until the
	final five minutes of this game at Crisler Arena.  Greg Graham was
	the scoring star for Indiana, hitting for 19 points.  Damon Bailey
	did not play due to a left thigh bruise.  The Hoosiers led 33-28 at
	the break and managed a couple of 8-point leads early in the second
	half before the Wolverines came back to trail by only 49-48 about
	midway through the second half.  Michigan had one chance to take the
	lead or tie at that point, but Eric Riley missed a short jumper and
	the Hoosiers returned the favor with a 3-point play at the other
	end.  IU eventually rolled out to a 70-56 advantage just before the
	end in a finish reminiscent of Michigan's against Ohio State a few
	weeks ago.  A pretty docile crowd by the sounds of it last night...
 
#2  Ohio State 80, #60 MINNESOTA 70:  The Buckeyes solidified their
	position at the top of the standings with a convincing win over the
	Gophers at Williams Arena.  OSU used a 21-8 first half run to gain a
	lead it would never relinquish.  The Gophers only got as close as
	6 points in the second half.  Kevin Lynch had a big ballgame for
	Minnesota, but it wasn't enough.  Jamaal Brown had 17 points for
	OSU, and keyed the big first half run.  This is Ohio State's best
	start (17-0 currently) since the 1962 season...
 
#61 Wisconsin 74, #210 NORTHWESTERN 57:  The Badgers came up with a
	rare Big Ten road victory by whipping the Cats at Welsh-Ryan Arena.
	The first half was close, but the Badgers pulled away early in the
	second half and coasted home.  Burly Patrick Tompkins led Wisconsin
	with a career-high 28 points...
 
 
Saturday:
 
	#68  Illinois at #51 MICHIGAN                Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#30  Michigan State at #6 INDIANA            2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#29  Purdue at #61 WISCONSIN                 4:00 pm
	#60  Minnesota at #210 NORTHWESTERN          7:00 pm
 
Monday:
 
	#62  Iowa at #68 ILLINOIS                    8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    2      4    Ohio State        17-0     7-0
    6      3    Indiana           17-2     5-1
   30     22    Michigan State    12-5     5-2
   29     NR    Purdue            11-5     3-3
   61     NR    Wisconsin          9-7     3-3
   68     NR    Illinois          12-6     2-3
   60     NR    Minnesota          9-7     2-4
   62     31    Iowa              13-5     2-4
   51     NR    Michigan           9-8     2-5
  210     NR    Northwestern       5-11    0-6
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Randy Peppler                        [email protected] |
| Illinois State Water Survey      or: [email protected]        |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indiana continued to enforce MrT's KOD on Michigan State, beating them
badly at Bloomington.  Superstar freshman Damon Bailey led the team with 19,
but it is not sure how far off the ground he jumped.

MrT's KOD worked again on Purdue... who traveled to Wisconsin and were beat
66-44.   They're still a fine bunch of widebody studs, right MrT?   They're
a .500 ballclub.  Nothing  more.

    Who you kidding Ross?  Losing at Mad City no longer carries the
    humiliating stigma it once did.  Tompkins & Simms cain mix it up
    with anybody, and when their long range shooters are on target 
    this squad plays like they belong in the top10.  Btw, during the
    State - IU game Peplowski laid some muscle on somebody and colormain
    Greg Kelser remarked, "Peplowski is so strong, there are only three
    middlemen in the Big10 who can bang with him: Tompkins of Wisconsin,
    Earl of Iowa, and Riley of Purdue."  Why he failed to mention the 
    strongest main in the leauge, Perry Carter, escapes me.  But you 
    get the point.  Gene must win this year, he's been blessed with a
    fantastic front-line, and if he fritters it away this will reflect
    poorly on his coaching record.  He's got three guys who'd start 
    ahaid of poor Matt Nover, so it's put up or shut-up time for Keady.
    
    re: ACCrisp
    
    How 'bout last year's UNLV Rebels, for starters.  Michigan comes
    to mind before that, and so on.  You get the idea too, hopefully.
    Remember that OSU woulda lost a game by now probably had they not
    played a Gougetown Cupcake preconference.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Vegas don't count, cause they didn't play the kind of grueling
    mid-season schedule that OSU is encountering right now.
    
    Michigan?  Come off it.  They weren't even one of the top seeds in
    their regional when they won their unlikely Title, so's I doubt they
    were playing the ultra-high level of hoops that OSU is playing right
    now.
    
    No, mark my words:  OSU will not reach the Final 4.  They're peaking at
    this very moment ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Hey, MrT, did you happen to see Larry Johnson against Louisville Saturday?
29 points and 13 boards and he was out of there for much of the end.   He
also showed he can handle the ball, at one point taking a pass at the top
of the key, doing a crossover dribble drive to the hoop, leaving his man
in the dust.   He's better than Jimmy Jackson... right now.  

If I were drafting in the NBA, and everybody was available, I'd take:

	1. Shaquille O'Neal
	2. Larry Johnson
	3. Jimmy Jackson
	4. Doug Smith
	5. Billy Owens
	6. Calbert Cheaney
	7. Steve Smith
	8. Kenny Anderson
	9. Dikembe Motuombo
       10. Christian Laettner

    What?  I didn't see Alonzo Sneering on that list.
    
    Acie Earl looked pretty tasty last night to a poor Hoosier fan not
    accustomed to having Division I-A middlemen around. Deon didn't look 
    too shabby, either.  
    
    Big10 Tom

 Deon looked great physically but I don't recall him doing all that much.
 Of course I missed the tail end of the game but for all the talk about
 how he was going to pay back Iowa I expected a monster of a performance
 which I didn't see. Possibly Acie and the other Iowa widebodies had
 something to do with this....

 the Badgers will beat the Buckeyes...

 mike 
 

    
    The best thing about the Bucks this year is that Taylor is NOT
    the coach.  Too many times did the team go into the NCAA tourney
    with high expectations only to lose very early.  I remember 
    specifically the team with Kellogg that lost to UCLA.  

    Nice idea - the top ten guys you'd take if everyone were eligible
    and the draft was today.  I would include Shawn Bradley and Stacey 
    Augmon in my Top Ten, leaving out Cheaney and Laettner.  And Bradley
    would be third, behind Shaq and Mutombo.  The others, in order,
    Larry Johnson, Steve Smith, Doug Smith, Jimmy Jackson, Billy Owens,
    Kenny Anderson, and Augmon.
    
    BTW - does anyone know which teams besides Kentucky are ineligible
    for post-season play?
    
    NAZZ

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-28-91)  NCAA
Date: 28 Jan 91 23:43:38 GMT
 
 
Saturday's Results:
 
#68 Illinois 72, #51 MICHIGAN 67:  Michigan led early 9-0 and 14-4,
	but once Illinois caught up later in the first half, the game was in
	doubt until the final minute, as Larry Smith pretty much won it by
	himself with 22 second-half points (he had 28 overall).  The
	Wolverines lost the first half lead briefly but regained it to take
	a 37-32 advantage to the lockeroom.  Illinois got things tied up
	pretty quickly in the second half, and the game pretty much
	see-sawed the rest of the way.  Michigan had one six-point run from
	Sam Mitchell which turned a 52-49 deficit into a 55-52 lead.  But,
	an Illinois timeout seemed to change things, and the Illini took the
	lead for good when the score reached the low 60's.  Demetrius Calip
	had 25 for Michigan, but got most of them in the first half.  The
	pivital play of the game occurred with 1:25 left and Michigan
	trailing 65-64.  The Wolverines were trying to set Calip up with a
	shot, but Smith intercepted one of those "skip" passes and flew down
	for a jam.  11,707 at Crisler, with echoes of "Hail to the Victors"
	still rattling in their brains...
 
#6  INDIANA 97, #30 Michigan State 65:  IU had a great first half,
	leading 46-30.  Then the Hoosiers hit 13 of their first 17 second
	half shots.  Game OVER!  This was a complete, thorough blowout off
	the Spartans, as the crowd in Bloomington must have been hoarse
	afterwards.  Steve Smith was held to just 14 points, a season-low
	for him (he had been averaging 27.6 ppg).  Damon Bailey, conversely,
	scored a career-high 19.  The Hoosiers ended up 37 of 57 from the
	field, with five players reaching double figures.  Bob Knight's son,
	Pat, even managed 8 points himself.  Matt Steigenga was a lone
	bright spot for Jud Heathcote with 16 points.  Jud said, "We played
	so bad here.  Is is time to make changes, try some different things?
	We're not getting better and that is a concern.  17,298 in
	Bloomington...
 
#61 WISCONSIN 66, #29 Purdue 44:  I'll deviate from the normal
	format a bit to give you a running score, so that you can see how
	pathetic Purdue's offense can be at times.  Don't be fooled by the
	final score.  It wasn't *that* close, as the February 10, 1977 to
	January 26, 1991, 26-game Purdue win streak was blown to hell at the
	Wisconsin Fieldhouse:
 
				WIS			Pur
				---			---
				4			0
				6			4
				9			6
				14			6
				14			8
				25			8	10:30 left, Badgers 10 for 12, 4-4 treys
				28			8	About 5 minutes left
				32			10
	Half		34			14	Pur: 6 for 21, only White, Riley score
 
				43			14	15+ left
				44			20	12:16 left, Wisconsin had cooled
				53			20	7:57 left, still only White, Riley
				53			25	6:50 left, Darner hits trey
				59			33	3:27 left, Yoder goes to deep bench
				64			35	2:00 left, Purdue 14 of 44
	Final		66			44	Jimmy Oliver SCORELESS!!! Pur 16 of 48
 
	Gene Keady termed the performance "sick" in his postgame interview.
	Wisconsin decided the game early, with it's great shooting, but even
	the Badgers really didn't do much the final 30 minutes of the game.
	If they had, this would have been about 90-44.  Purdue had one
	8-minute scoreless streak in the first half, to go with the 9-minute
	one at Minnesota last week and the 5+ minute one against Michigan
	State.  All credit goes to the Badgers here, for playing a great
	defensive game on Jimmy Oliver.  Chuckie White had a good ballgame,
	but that was it.  Willie Simms led the Badgers with 11 points and
	the great defense on Oliver, who had an 18.1 scoring average.  The
	fivesome Oliver, Travis Trice, Linc Darner, Ian Stanback and Matt
	Painter were a combined 4 for 27 from the floor.  Dave Barrett
	played a good deal of the game and didn't even attempt at shot...
	11,482 howling fans at Madison... [This is for Charlie:  Both
	Machelle Joseph and Joy Holmes are better than some of the men!]
 
#60 Minnesota 85, #210 NORTHWESTERN 68:  The Gophers notched an easy
	win in Evanston.  Randy Carter scored a career-high 29 points for
	Minnesota, and Kevin Lynch chipped in with 18.  Pat Baldwin led the
	Cats with 17.  The Gophers led by only 5 at the break, 37-32, but
	got things rolling in the second half.  No other details thanks to
	my wonderful local paper, other than 6,419 at Welsh-Ryan...
 

[....]

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-29-91)  NCAA
Date: 29 Jan 91 17:20:30 GMT
 
Three points:
 
	(1)  Besides Ohio State and Indiana, the Big Ten appears to be as
	weak top-to-bottom as it has been in a long, long time.  If somehow
	Illinois would manage to finish fourth (I still have faith in
	Michigan State to take third), I would not be surprised if only 3
	teams are picked for the NCAA tournament, as the next candidate teams
	would be fifth or lower.  After witnessing last night's performance,
	and comparing it to the earlier Syracuse-UConn game and then later
	to UNLV jumping ahead of Utah State 20-2, I'd have to say the Big
	Ten has seen better days...
 
	(2)  Is anyone else getting tired of missing action on these ESPN
	games because Mike and Dick are talking about something else?  Last
	night, with Illinois up by just a point, we had no idea that
	Rennie Clemens missed the front end of a two-shot foul, and had to
	wait until the scoreboard in the arena was shown to note that he did
	indeed miss the shot!  The cameras didn't bother to show the shot
	either...
 
	(3)  Can you believe that TWO writers changed their first-place
	votes in this week's AP poll from UNLV to Ohio State???  I wonder
	how they can justify that?  I wasn't aware that UNLV had done so
	poorly lately...
 
 
Monday's Result:
 
#68 ILLINOIS 53, #62 Iowa 50:  Illinois did nothing right the final
	6 minutes of the game last night, yet managed to hold on as Iowa
	either couldn't hit a free throw or Acie Earl tried a really dumb
	offensive move.  A 7-footer trying to do dribble moves?  Val Barnes
	was the guy to get the ball to down the stretch, but his teammates
	never really looked for him.  He usually had to take it upon himself
	if he touched the ball.  Larry Smith won the game again for
	Illinois.  Andy Kaufmann's stint in Lou Henson's doghouse has broken
	his spirit, don't you think?  He doesn't look anything like the
	player I saw single-handedly bring the Illini back from the dead
	against Purdue a few weeks ago...  The score was tied at only 17-all
	with just 3:25 left in the first half.  Illinois then asserted
	itself, building leads of 28-21, 41-26, and 47-33 with less than 10
	minutes to go, when the Iowa offense finally woke up and made a game
	of it.  Actually, with the Illini repeatedly turning the ball over,
	taking their own dumb shots and missing a boatload of FTs, Iowa
	really could have won this game had they done anything in the final
	2 minutes.  The Hawkeyes ended up shooting as badly as Purdue did at
	Wisconsin Saturday, but almost won anyway.  Guess which great
	shooting teams are playing each other this Thursday???  The biggest
	attendance of the year made it to the Assembly Hall for this blood
	match.  The crowd only got ugly once, throwing debris on the floor
	after an Andy Kaufmann travel (replay vindicated the refs).  Dr. Tom
	was looking for hands to shake after the game, but he didn't appear
	to find many.  Illinois now hosts Wisconsin and Northwestern in an
	unusual schedule which will see them play 6 of their first 9
	conference games at home.  The second half could be rough...
 
 
Wednesday:
 
	#61  Wisconsin at # 6 INDIANA		     7:00 pm CST
 
Thursday:
 
	#62  Iowa at #29 PURDUE				     7:00 pm
	#51  Michigan at #60 MINNESOTA		     7:00 pm
	#2   Ohio State at #30 MICHIGAN STATE    7:00 pm ESPN (!)
 
Saturday:
 
	#61  Wisconsin at #68 ILLINOIS           Noon    Big Ten/Raycom
	#210 Northwestern at #62 IOWA            2:00 pm Big Ten/Raycom
 
Sunday (FINALLY!!):
 
	#29  Purdue at #2 OHIO STATE             1:00 pm ABC (National)
	#6   Indiana at #60 MINNESOTA            3:00 pm Big Ten/Raycom
 
Next Monday:
 
	#210 Northwestern at #68 ILLINOIS		8:30 pm ESPN (ugh!)
 
 
RECORDS:
 
 (Old)  (New)
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    2      3    Ohio State        17-0     7-0
    6      4    Indiana           18-2     6-1
   30     34    Michigan State    12-6     5-3
   68     NR    Illinois          14-6     4-3
   61     NR    Wisconsin         10-7     4-3
   29     NR    Purdue            11-6     3-4
   60     NR    Minnesota         10-7     3-4
   62     40    Iowa              13-6     2-5
   51     NR    Michigan           9-9     2-6
  210     NR    Northwestern       5-12    0-7

Nazz,

Maryland (last year, this year), Illinois (this year, next year) and
Missouri (this year, next year) are also ineligible.

There may be more.

TTom

 Mine would be, Shack, Mutumbo, Anderson, Owens, JJ, Larry, Doug Smith,
 Stith, Mourning and Murdock...

 mike

    1.  Shack (is Allah)
    2.  Jim Jackson
    3.  Larry Johnson
    4.  Billy Owens
    5.  Alonzo Sneering
    6.  Steve Smith
    7.  Brian Stith
    8.  Kenny Anderson
    9.  Doug Smith
    10. Dikembe Mutumbo
       

    Hate to say it but I have to agree with Lou Henson on the unscrupulous
    behavior of Dr. Tom Davis & Company.  Much ado about nothing, after all
    the wild accusations about "$80,000 + Chevy Blazer" turns out it was more
    like "$20 + bus money to mom's funeral."  Reason I hate to say it is that
    Deon woulda been MUCH happier had he gone on down to Bloomington where
    he belongs.  
    
    Big10 Tom

    Re. -1
    
    Yeah, 
      Sounds familiar( see Holtz ). And Holtz got pilloried for the same
    basic thing.
    

Indiana whipped Wisconsin last night at Bloomington... Non-leaper Damon
Bailey led the team in scoring for the second straight game with 21.  Damon
will end the season with more points than all of the Tar Heel Superfrosh
combined.

Mrt, please sign in and discount Damon's play as mediocre.

 Any more details than that Doug. I mean I would have thought that those
 the Badgers would have made a game of it. Especially considering that
 Tompkins and Simms are of the widebody variety that Bob can only have
 wet dreams about???

 mike

From AP:

	Damon Bailey scored 21 points at Bloomington, In and Calbert Cheaney 
	added 14 as No. 4 Indiana defeated Wisconsin for the 22nd consecutive
	time.
	Indiana (19-2, 7-1) led by as many as 14 points in the first half,
	helped by a tenacious defense that held the Badgers scoreless for
	separate stretches of 3 and 4 minutes.
	The Badgers (10-8, 4-4) pulled to 34-24 at the half, then came on
	strong at the beginning of the second half.

	{that's it... seems like we missed the good stuff due to space
	 considerations... I can't complain, though.  The Columbia, SC
	newspaper has more scores and more writeups about college hoop
	than any paper I've seen.   Plus they get the late scores too.}


---

	Ohio State versus Michigan State tonight on ESPN.   A Spartan
	loss will make the Big 10 a two team race.  The conference season
	will be at its halfway point on Saturday.   Any team with 3 or
	more losses is done.

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (1-31-91)  NCAA
Date: 31 Jan 91 15:50:41 GMT
 
Wednesday's Result:
 
#4  INDIANA 73, #48 Wisconsin 57:  The Badgers managed to do what
	some recent teams visiting Bloomington could not do:  not get blown
	out.  IU had a couple of early 14 point leads and it looked bad for
	Wisconsin, but the Badgers fought back and only trailed by 10 at
	halftime (34-24) after having been down by just 8 points.  Early in
	the second half, they even had the lead down to 7 at 38-31.  At
	40-32, IU scored 12 straight points to take a 50-32 lead, and managed
	to stay ahead by at least 15 the rest of the way.  The largest lead
	was at 60-39.  Damon Bailey scored a career-high 21 points (he's
	made his last 7 three-point attempts), despite finding out earlier in
	the day that his sister has cancer.  Calbert Cheaney had 14 points
	on perfect shooting.  Pat Thompkins and Willie Simms starred for
	Wisconsin, but gunner Tim Locum was scoreless.  IU was 19 of 20 from
	the stripe in a great shooting display.  Both teams were below 50%
	from the field, however.  The Assembly Hall sellout was a bit
	quieter than usual as Wisconsin's defense held the Hoosiers in check
	more than usual...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#2   Ohio State at #41 MICHIGAN STATE		6:00 pm ESPN
	#59  Iowa at #35 PURDUE					7:00 pm
	#69  Michigan at #54 MINNESOTA			7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#48  Wisconsin at #60 ILLINOIS			Noon    Big Ten/Raycom
	#228 Northwestern at #59 IOWA			2:00 pm Big Ten/Raycom
 
Sunday:
 
	#35  Purdue at #2 OHIO STATE			1:00 pm ABC
	#4   Indiana at #54 MINNESOTA			3:00 pm Big Ten/Raycom
 
Monday:
 
	#228 Northwestern at #60 ILLINOIS		8:30 pm ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    2      3    Ohio State        17-0     7-0
    4      4    Indiana           19-2     7-1
   41     34    Michigan State    12-6     5-3
   60     NR    Illinois          14-6     4-3
   48     NR    Wisconsin         10-8     4-4
   35     NR    Purdue            11-6     3-4
   54     NR    Minnesota         10-7     3-4
   59     40    Iowa              13-6     2-5
   69     NR    Michigan           9-9     2-6
  228     NR    Northwestern       5-12    0-7
    

 Thanks Doug. Gametime 7:30, 8:00 for tonight?

 mike

    >Mrt, please sign in and discount Damon's play as mediocre.
    
    Now dagblamit Doug that's just plain UNFAIR.  Ain't said that Damon
    is mediocre.  All I said was coming outta H.S. this kid had a build
    up comparable to that of Lou Alcindor and what we end up seeing is a
    kid with limitations too-often described by commentators in "but she
    has a nice personality" terms.  When the hype was going down I had
    visions dancing in my haid of a power player capable of playing the
    front-line with sneering impunity (slam-jams, blocked shots, mogambo
    nuclear rebounds, etc.), and when I first saw him in big-time
    competition I logged the same disappointment as YOU.
    
    Btw, this is the Midwest, so it goes without saying that the game
    wasn't broadcast here - we got Big East and Almost Close action just
    like the other 6 nights of the week...  Also, it was the Hoosiers'
    22nd straight victory at HOME against the Badgers.
    
    Big game tonight from the standpoint of Hoosier fans.  And I'll be in
    row 16 in the barn Sunday afternoon with my print-outs at the ready.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    OSU by 4 over MSU in a close one.  Jackson and Lee get in foul
    trouble early.
    

    >Holtz got pilloried for the same basic thing.
    
    Watch it with the past tense there!  Holtz goes before the Infraction
    Committee this Friday.  In this morning's Mpls paper they had a_expert
    saying that Holtz did the same thing that Galen Hall did and that there
    was pressure to have the same punishment assessed on Lou: 5 yr ban from
    NCAA coaching.  The same article quoted Texas Christian's coach saying
    that Lou's mistake was being honest, which may have put him on a
    different level as a person but will see him on a higher level of
    punishment for having done so.
    
    As a Notre Dame grid fan I'm hoping Lou doesn't get it, but part of the
    guy's charm is how he relates to people, and in this case it may see
    him outta college grid.
    
    Big10 Tom 

A big night of upsets in the Big 10 on Thursday.

First Michigan State beat Ohio State 75-61 at MSU.
Then  Iowa beat Purdue {that talented team} 78-69 on Purdue's home court.
And   Michigan beat Minnesota  66-62.

Indiana and Ohio State are now tied for the Big 10 lead.

 Saw alot of the MSU game and they flat out wanted it more than OSU. They
 played up to the potential of their pre-season ranking. Hard to believe
 they lost by 30 to the smaller Hooisers. They did a good job of keeping JJ
 in check. Be an interesting rematch when they go to Buckeye land. I kind
 of missed the play that lead up to Ayers taking the technical. Seemed key
 as OSU had just taken a slight lead....

 mike

    
    OSU did not play well at all.  They could not seem to get things going
    in the second half.  They also seemed to be in a panic early... like
    down 8 with 8 minutes to go, and they were in a panic.

 Could be that they weren't ready for the physicaliness of MSU. Which leads
 one to suspect that although Perry is carved up suprememely he isn't mentally
 into the banging. 

 One thing for sure it proves the guys who gave them those #1 votes have Rocks
 in their heads.

 Arkansas vs. UNLV coming soon!!!!!!!!!!!!

 mike

    
    Mike, one loss does not mean the team is not one of the top teams in
    the land.  Remember, Arkansas has 1 loss, and UNLV hasn't exactly
    played a tough schedule...  When UNLV loses to the Razorbacks, #1 will
    be up for grabs.
    

 Paul, I wasn't implying that they weren't one of the top teams just that
 they certainly aren't #1. I like OSU, I was touting em last year especially
 JJ. Arkansas has the personal and the game plan to beat UNLV but Ollie
 Miller has to stay out of foul trouble. If he doesn't play the Razorbacks
 will not be able to physically match UNLV in the box. 

 mike    

The only reprehensible act of any substance by Bob was his allegedly having
taken his team off the floor against the Russians.  Turns out, he didn't. 
Also turns out that, as usual, the press took liberties with the facks in the
incident, so much so that what started as just plain fake reporting became
self-perpetuating myth:	

	The entire litany was revived at the opening of the 1987-88 season
	in the widely-reported "Russian incident."  Unanimously, reporters
	wrote that in protest against the officiating Knight took his team 
	off the floor.  Yet this is not what happened at all.  After Knight
	had protested against leaving, referee Jim Burr had raced over to
	the scorer's table and written that the game was forfeited before 
	anyone realized what was happening.  Only then did Knight and his 
	team leave.  

	Weeks later, reporters, with the exception of Dick Vitale on ABC
	television, still had Knight removing his team from the floor as if
	it had been a matter of his choice, his decision.  As in the case
	of Puerto Rico, the original error was perpetuated in the press: 
	Knight petulantly had led his team off the court.  "Grow up," wrote
	Harvey Araton in the New York Daily News, adding, "punch a cop in 
	San Juan, if you must, throw a few chairs, but do get us into the
	Final Four."  Even Andy Rooney of Sixty Minutes had his say via the 
	Tribune Media Services: "Knight decided, on the spot, to take his
	team off the floor and forfeit the game."

	There is a profound difference between a team leaving the floor 
	after a forfeit and taking your team off thefloor and by so doing
	forfeiting the game...  Acknowledging (that the rules hadn't been
    	adhered to in the Russian game) the Amateur Basketball Association
	apologized "for inconsistencies in the official's enforcement of
	the the Russian's coach's box, substitution and free throw lane
	rules," an apology which never made the newspapers.

    >One thing for sure it proves the guys who gave them those #1 votes
    >have Rocks in their heads.
    
    I don't think that's for sure at all.  Remember, while the Bucks are
    going into Breslin and Assembly Hall etc. the Runnin' Rabble are off
    munching on cupcakes like San Jose State.  The Rabble are a_excellent
    team (btw, what do you think Augmon and Larry got for staying this
    year, $250,000 each?), but playing in a pud league tends to magnify
    them in comparison to the other excellent teams, who put it on the line
    week in week out [yes, I remember the game in Detroit].
    
    The call on which Ayers took the T was indeed unbelievable.  But he
    gave the other team a 7 point trip down the court, and it killed them.
    I think the key thing hurting the Bucks was that Jamaal Brown and JJ
    shot poorly, but give the D credit on this.
    
    Steigenga is hard to understand.  I dunno if he's slow-witted, but I've
    rarely seen so much talent so poorly used.  And you cain't fault Jud,
    Steigenga simply insists on making stupid passes, stupid fouls (he fouled
    out on 5 stupid, unnecessary fouls, 4 of which came after he'd already
    put the shooter in a position where he was throwing up a prayer, only to
    be sent to the line for free-throws), and stupid shot selection.  He's
    constantly out of position on offense, on defense, and in transition.
    The guy seemingly hasn't learned a thing in 3 years.  But he'll still be
    an NBA draft pick, and a good one.
    
    Btw, a buddy of mine went out for post-game drinks with Ayers and his
    entourage, and when axed about Funderburke Ayers said that he had a 
    "very very rough upbringing" and was indeed a haid case and that he had
    no idea whether he'd stick at OSU, but he's a great player and probably
    learned his lesson in Bloomington, and represents a huge bluebird for
    the OSU program cuz all top Ohio players (both hoops and grid) by long-
    standing tradition go to Michigan for some reason.
    
    I was at the Indiana-Gopher game, which the Hoosiers won by 12 or so.
    This is no #4 team, going down to the young, not-so-good, Gophers by
    13 several times in the first half.  They were unable to make a move
    until they reverted to the 3-guard lineup with Anderson in the middle.
    After that they inlet passed constantly to Anderson who'd go up, get
    fouled, and go to the stripe.  He won't be able to do that against a
    good team (and wasn't against OSU and SyrExcuse).  
    
    Gregg Graham also suffered a reversion, going back to his old ways
    making at least 10 errors on offense, 3 of which cost sure baskets in
    the first half that resulted in Indiana falling far behind.  Little
    Chris Reynolds did an unbelievable job of D on Kevin Lynch, shutting
    him down.  Lynch, showing his typical lack of class, cried during the
    post-game about being double-teamed all the time cuz he's on a team 
    short of scorers.  Odd thing is, except for the usual weak-side help
    outs, Lynch was never doubled by Indiana.  
    
    The Hoosiers fell behind in the first half largely cuz they played 
    NO inside game at all when Nover was in.  Nover's abject inability to
    receive inlet passes was partially responsible for this, but more than
    that was that Indiana contented themselves to take open midrange Js
    that they consistently missed.  IU finally grabbed the lead with 11
    minutes left in the game, kept it around 5 points going into the last
    few minutes, and then stretched it out at the foul line at the end. 
    
    The 3-guard offense gives the Hoosiers much better D, and until they
    went to it they were unable to get the motion offense going cuz Nover
    was getting eaten alive by Ernest Nsigamasabo, Minnesota's 4.0
    engineering student Watusi who just learned how to play hoops 3 years
    ago as a_exchange student.  I got skeert when Clem countered the
    3-guard lineup with 3 straight successful mismatch lay-ins against 
    much smaller Hoosier defenders.  But gradually Indiana motioned the
    poor Goofers to death until their defense fell apart and they ended
    up in big-time fould trouble, whereupon the Hoosiers surgically took
    control over the contest.
    
    Big10 Tom

 Well maybe "rocks" was too a strong a statement but I do feel that not
 only is UNLV better so is Arkansas. The Buckeyes sure looked impressive
 yesterday in the last five minutes against Gene's boy. Larry certainly
 could have taken a few lesson from JJ yesterday don't you think Doug?

 I remember the play now that Ayers got the T. The big boy Robinson stepped
 in perfectly to a charge on a 2-1 break that MSU was dealing up and got
 called for blocking....

 mike

    Course you'd think Vegas & the Hogs are better.  They don't play
    anybody and rack up huge numbers as a direct result!
    
    If you put Arkansas in the ACC, Big East, or Big 10, I'll guarantee
    they'd end up with at least 5 losses.  (Maybe more ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    UNLV'd wouldn't go undefeated in the ACC or Big East, although
    they might in the down Big10 this year, but I doubt even that.
    
    Big10 Tom

>Larry certainly could have taken a few lesson from JJ yesterday don't you
>think Doug?

Unfortunately, Mike, I now live in the SOUTH.  Where the only hoops allowed 
on TV must involve the ACC.   That's right, Purdue Vs Ohio State was not shown
locally in Columbia, SC.   We got the distinct pleasure of seeing Ga Tech vs
NC State.  That would be fine most days, but since we had seen GA Tech vs
Duke on Wednesday, and Wake Forest vs Clemson, and UNC vs Clemson and god knows
how many other ACC games last week, it's getting a little old.   It's
unbelievable how many games they show.... and how much network stuff they'll
preempt to do it.

Tell me, what did JJ do?  :-(    And how bad were the Purdue guards?

    
    From falsehood to distortion, the media vultures are ever-anxious to
    feast on poor Bob's carcass, seeking in this case to promote an 
    otherwise unremarkable documentary by sensationalizing a_innocent
    reference, a_intellectual literary reference, indeed a highbrowed 
    quote to his pantheon-mate Voltaire, into a_alleged enorsement of
    the act of rape:	
    
    	On April 25, Connie Chung's documentary, "Stressed To Kill,"
    	aire on NBC  Barely a moment into Bob Knight's segment, almost 
    	his first words are "If rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it."
     	It's as if the subject of the program were sexuality in the 80s,
    	with a basketball coach a peculiarly unlikely commentator.  
    	Completely gone is the context in which the coach made the remark:
    	Knight himself immobilized by unjust officiating, rendered as
        helpless as a rape victim, attempting to perceive what it might 
    	feel like to be completely and hopelessly vulnerable.
     
    	Recognizing that the figure of speech, no matter its origins in
    	Voltaire's Candide, might be understood, Knight goes on immediately
    	to qualify: That's just an old term that you're going to use.  The 
    	plane's down, so you have no control over it.  God, I'm not talking
    	about the act of rape, don't misinterpret me there.  But what I'm
    	talking about is something's happened to you so you have to handle
    	it.  You have to be able to realize that there's nothing you can do
    	about it."
    
    	The wire services alter the text, adding an emphatic "now!" after
        "so you have to handle it," whereas the "now" came later, after 
        "nothing you can do about it, now..." as the transition to Knight's
        next thought."

    Oh quit you're poor-mouthing, Doug.  You've gotten so bad with it you
    now embarrass even ME with this threadbare technique of yours!  Tellya
    what, I'll trade you Matt Nover, Chris Lawson, and throw in Pat Graham
    if you'll just let me have this Riley stud.  Whatta main, and he really
    knows how to play.  Package a_NBA-bound pivotmain like him with this
    Oliver, who makes Anderson and Cheany look like non-athletes, and what
    we have is a subpar coaching job being runed in by Mene Gene.
    
    Btw, up here in the midwest it's the same, we get a slate of nonstop
    ACC games, with maybe 1 or 2 Big10 clashes thrown in if we're lucky.
    
    Big10 Tom                                                           

    re: .131
    
    So tell us then, exactly *why* was the game ruled a forfeit?
    
    I'd also be curious as to your source for all this sudden insight. 
    Seems strange that it took you so long to find out "the truth".
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Chris just because their respective conference aren't top notch doesn't 
 mean that the Hogs and the Rebs aren't. Both have the offensive and more
 importantly defensive talent to be atop any one of the major conference.
 While they certainly wouldn't be undefeated I say 5 losses is a possibilty
 but it would probably be less...

 Well Doug unfortunely I only saw the last five minutes when I tuned in it was
 53-51 OSU. Purdue tied it then OSU turned up the defense and forced a few
 bad passes as well as scoring on all their chances. JJ hit 4 or 5 shots down
 the stretch all from different places on the court a few assists, rebounds etc.
 They certainly looked top notch crunch time but some of the pass by the purdue
 guards were dumb...

 mike

    	Hey T, those last two BobKnight fables got me laughing so hard
    I gots to hold my side.  HAHAHAHAHAHA�
    
    				/Don

    
    > Hey T, those last two BobKnight fables got me laughing so hard
    > I gots to hold my side.  HAHAHAHAHAHA�
    
    Guess T's feeling guilty or neglected, or both.  I haven't hardly even 
    heard any mention of Bob since the Thanksgiving fun.  What gives?
    
    glenn
    

    >So tell us then, exactly *why* was the game ruled a forfeit?
    
    It was ruled a forfeit cuz Bob, ironically enough, REFUSED to leave
    the floor after receiving his 2nd technical.  The rules had been
    set aside on several occasions (the Russians had 6 guys on the floor
    with the ball in play twice, for example, with no technicals called;
    the Russian coach was out of the coach's box most of the game, again
    no Ts, etc.), and Bob went crazy when *his* 3rd technical was called
    for being out of the coach's box - after he'd been complaining the 
    entire game about the Russian coach!
    
    Anyway, Bob refused to leave, instead staying with Bill Wall, then
    Prez of the AAU (?), trying to work a compromise where the rules were
    either enforced or not enforced equably.  After only about 15 seconds
    of ignoring the referee and speaking with Wall the ref ran over to the
    bench and declared the game forfeited and over.  Only then did Bob and
    his team leave the floor (in fack AFTER the Russians had left).
    
    Not coincidentally, the officiating crew was the same one filed against
    by Dale Brown the previous tourney over the phone-slamming incident; a
    scene that purportedly cost the crew a Final Four appearance.
    
    Funny how things get twisted into exact opposite LIES where sensationalism
    cain be generated.
    
    Big10 Tom

    >I haven't hardly even heard any mention of Bob since the Thanksgiving
    >fun.  What gives?
    
    Wail, after the ACCrook/Dan axis suffered abject defeat on the Bob vs.
    Snuffy Smif' issue (in no small part due to your fine work) it's much 
    less necessary to anlayze things Bob.  I've always been one a Bob's 
    biggest (truthful) critics in here, so I don't want to publicly beat my 
    own devil, so to speak.
    
    Big10 Tom

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-1-91)  NCAA
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 1991 19:16:50 GMT
 
Michigan State reduced the ranks of the unbeaten by one, while
Iowa ended it's 15-game Big Ten road losing streak at reeling Purdue,
and the Wolverines pulled a surprise at The Barn...
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#41 MICHIGAN STATE 75, #2 Ohio State 61:  I knew they could do it.
	Remember last year, when a 5-3 Michigan State team visited an 8-0
	Purdue team and came away with an 11-point victory which propelled
	them to a 15-3 league title?  Will that happen again?  It will be
	tougher, since there is a second team up at the top this year
	(Indiana).  But, this was a tremendous performance by a team with
	it's back to the wall, coming off it's worst loss in years.  MSU was
	5-3 going into the game, Ohio State 7-0 and undefeated overall.
	What may have been the key to the game occurred during the final
	minute of the first half when MSU, down 36-32, got a hoop and then a
	technical foul call on OSU coach Randy Ayers.  The Spartans tied the
	game up after the T and then someone named Kris Weshinskey nailed a
	trey to give State a 39-36 halftime advantage.  The Spartans then
	built upon that lead in the second half.  Ayers said, "My technical
	was the biggest play of the game".  Part of the Breslin Center
	sellout of 15,000+ ran out on the floor after the momentus win...
 
#59 Iowa 78, #35 PURDUE 69:  Purdue's slide into oblivion continued,
	as the Hawkeyes hammered them in the final ten minutes of the game
	before the quietest Mackey Arena sellout I've heard in some time.
	In recent games, Purdue has gotten behind early 16-4 (IU), 20-9
	(MSU), and 28-8 (at Wisconsin).  Earlier, Cal had them down 19-8 and
	Stetson had that 43-21 halftime lead.  Last night, Iowa led 18-7.  I
	wonder what Keady tells the team before the games?  But, as usual,
	Purdue came all the way back to lead, this time with a 15-1 run.
	The Boilers led 29-23 with about 6 minutes left in the first half
	when Iowa took over again, outscoring Purdue 19-12 to take a slim
	42-41 lead to the lockerroom.  Iowa, which shot a miserable 33% at
	Illinois Monday, blistered the nets at a 62% rate in this half.  The
	first 10 minutes of the second half were a low-scoring see-saw.  A
	Linc Darner trey put Purdue up 52-50, and then the game changed for
	good.  Twice, Purdue forced Iowa turnovers only to blow fast break
	attempts (the crowd was really going at this point) and blow a
	chance to take a decent lead.  Iowa then seized on this chance and
	transformed this two-point deficit into a 62-53 lead which
	essentially decided the game.  Unfortunately for Purdue, Chuckie
	White had severely sprained his ankle during the final seconds of
	the first half and didn't play any of the second half until he
	pleaded his case with the coach and entered the game at this point.
	He did his best, helping to cut the lead to just 72-68 within the
	final two minutes.  But, two Val Barnes hoops extended the lead to
	76-68 to finally ice it.  Acie Earl enjoyed a huge size advantage
	inside and had a big game.  Purdue has now lost 7 of it's last 11
	games (10 of these since the Woody Austin news came out)...  It
	doesn't get any better, what with a national TV date at Ohio State
	coming up...  The Hawkeyes ended up shooting 55% for the game, and
	were 21 of 30 from the stripe after being only 3 of 12 at
	Illinois...  Keady termed his team as "not very good" in his
	postgame interview, citing "we're back where we were 11 years ago
	when I came here" (actually, that team was much better!)...
 
#69 Michigan 66, #54 MINNESOTA 62:  In somewhat of a surprise (at
	least to me), the Wolverines pretty much had their way at
	Minneapolis last night.  Minnesota's season seems to be paralleling
	Purdue's at this stage - losing, and no offense.  The Wolverines led
	by six at the break and built a 12-point second half lead before
	blowing it, when the Gophers took a 62-59 lead with just 2:29 left.
	That's when Demetrius Calip took over.  He hit a trey with 1:36 left
	to tie the game at 62.  Then, after a Kevin Lynch baseline miss with
	just over a minute to go, Calip nailed the game-winning trey with 24
	seconds to go.  Both Lynch and Nate Tubbs missed subsequent
	three-point attempts, and Michael Talley finished off the scoring
	with a free throw.  Michigan has won 9 of the last 11 and 13 of the
	last 16 meetings between these two schools.  After not playing all
	that much last year (except when Sean Higgins was hurt), Calip has
	become one of the stars of the conference this season...
 

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-4-91)  NCAA
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 1991 21:08:46 GMT
 
Saturday's Results:
 
#60 ILLINOIS 70, #48 Wisconsin 62:  The Illini hung on again as
	their opponent again was ice cold from the stripe.  Wisconsin could
	only manage 8 of 18 from the charity line, and added to Iowa's last
	Monday, makes it 11 of 30 against Illinois.  Must be that two-headed
	cow they have behind the basket...  This game may have been decided
	during the final 2:30 of the first half, when Illinois turned a
	23-20 deficit into a 27-24 halftime lead and never trailed again,
	though it did get close.  The Illini were down by as much as 21-15
	in the first half before taking the lead at the end of the half.  In
	the second half, they built leads of 47-38 with 11:52 to go and
	58-48 a few minutes later.  But, the Badgers came back, and with the
	help of an Andy Kaufmann T, trimmed 5 points off of the lead
	quickly at 58-53.  The Illini answered with three points off of a
	steal to lead 61-53 with just 5:42 to go.  But, Wisconsin outscored
	Illinois 9-4 over the next 4+ minutes to whittle the lead to 65-62.
	They had some chances, most notably a missed Larry Hisle trey, but
	Illinois hit 5 free throws inside the final minute to win.  Both
	Kaufmann and Larry Smith had 16 points for Illinois.  Pat Tompkins
	was a bear for the Badgers, scoring a game-high 17 points and
	pulling down 8 boards.  The largest attendance of the year, 16,295,
	was on hand...
 
#59 IOWA 82, #228 Northwestern 66:  This score is not indicative of
	the game, as the Hawkeyes stormed out to a 43-18 halftime advantage
	after leading 32-10.  This was Northwestern's 41st consecutive Big
	Ten road loss, the last win coming at Minnesota, of all places, on
	February 20, 1986 (65-60).  Iowa's biggest lead was 57-29 with 14:28
	to play, and the Hawkeyes just coasted home thereafter.  Acie Earl
	led the Hawkeyes with 19 points and 6 blocked shots.  Rodell Davis
	had 11 points.  The Wildcats were led by Pat Baldwin with 16.  Since
	coming to Northwestern, Bill Foster is 8-72 in league play and 0-40
	on the road!  15,500, as usual, at Iowa City...
 
 
Sunday's Results:
 
#2 OHIO STATE 66, #35 Purdue 59:  Amazingly, Purdue was able to throw
	a big-time scare at the Buckeyes and their fans before Jim Jackson
	settled things down the stretch.  There were times in the first half
	of this game that Purdue didn't even belong on the same floor as the
	Buckeyes.  OSU did pull away from a slim 8-7 lead to go up 23-14,
	but that's as large as the lead ever got until the final score.
	From 23-14, Purdue outscored the Buckeyes 14-9 to cut the lead to
	32-28 inside of the final minute of the first half.  But, aided by a
	couple of turnovers, the Buckeyes were able to go up 36-28 at the
	break.  Purdue came out fast in the second half, outscoring the
	Buckeyes 13-4 to open the half and take a 41-40 lead.  The two teams
	then played evenly until the 8:00 mark, when Purdue still led at
	51-48.  It was at this point that Mr. Jackson took the game over, as
	he consistently penetrated for easy J's.  The Buckeyes took the lead
	over inside the 4 minute mark, and held on as Purdue could only must
	8 points down the stretch.  During the final 6 minutes, OSU
	outscored Purdue 15-6.  Jackson had 8 points in the final 4 minutes,
	and finished with 22.  Jimmy Oliver also had 22 for Purdue as he
	broke his slump.  Chuckie White also had a big game for Purdue, as a
	couple of his jams really got his team going.  Linc Darner hit a
	couple of big treys.  Purdue became the first team to outrebound OSU
	this year, 26-23.  13,276 nervous fans in Columbus...
 
#4 Indiana 77, #54 MINNESOTA 66:  The Hoosiers overcame 30% shooting
	and a 13-point deficit in the first half to come back and whip the
	Gophers.  A 17-1 run by the Hoosiers, keyed by Calbert Cheaney and
	Eric Anderson, turned the tables on Minnesota and the Hoosiers
	gradually salted the game away.  The win avenged a huge loss the
	Hoosiers suffered at The Barn last year on Super Bowl Sunday.  Both
	Cheaney and Anderson had 22 points, and Kevin Lynch's 20 put him
	15th on the all-time Gopher scoring list.  No more details on this
	one, as they chose not to show it locally, but a near-capacity crowd
	on hand in Minneapolis to see the Gopher slide continue...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#228 Northwestern at #60 ILLINOIS		8:30 pm CST    ESPN
 
Wednesday:
 
	#60  Illinois at #35 PURDUE				7:00 pm
 
Thursday:
 
	#4   Indiana at #228 NORTHWESTERN		7:00 pm
	#59  Iowa at #41 MICHIGAN STATE			7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#41  Michigan State at #48 WISCONSIN	Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#228 Northwestern at #2 OHIO STATE		2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#59  Iowa at #69 MICHIGAN				7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#35  Purdue at #4 INDIANA				1:00 pm  ABC (National)
	#60  Illinois at #54 MINNESOTA			3:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Monday:
 
	#69  Michigan at #2 OHIO STATE			8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    2      3    Ohio State        18-1     8-1
    4      4    Indiana           20-2     8-1
   41     34    Michigan State    13-6     6-3
   60     NR    Illinois          15-6     5-3
   59     40    Iowa              15-6     4-5
   48     NR    Wisconsin         10-9     4-5
   35     NR    Purdue            11-8     3-6
   54     NR    Minnesota         10-9     3-6
   69     NR    Michigan          10-9     3-6
  228     NR    Northwestern       5-13    0-8

    Well, the Bucks have pretty much wrapped up the Big10 Crown, given 
    that the undersized Hoosiers must visit both St. John and Breslin
    whereas the boys in Red & Silver have already been to Breslin and
    Bloomington.  
    
    Congrat's to the Buckeyes on winning the only meaningful conference
    Crown in the nation.  
    
    Sadly,
    Big10 Tom 

    
    Gee Tom, Thanks!
    
    	I really haven't seen too much of them this year except for Sundays
    game and to be honest with you, I hope they have looked better.  I
    don't think I would say things are wrapped up yet though....I think
    they still have to play Indiana one more time this year.  Its hard for
    me to understand why Indiana can still be ranked above Ohio State in
    the National rankings with the Big "O" beating them once this year
    allready.  
    	I'll be looking for Ohio State to be in the final 4 this year and
    be top seeded.  Unlike last year where they had to play UNLV in the
    early rounds.......when is the reagular season over for them?
    
    	Hal
    

    
    Hal, look at the national rankings... you'll find that OSU is ranked
    higher than IU and have been since the victory...
    

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-6-91)  NCAA
Date: 6 Feb 91 18:18:02 GMT

[....]
 
Monday's Result:
 
#60 ILLINOIS 73, #224 Northwestern 59:  This was a fairly easy,
	though not embarassingly easy win for Illinois, as Northwestern does
	play hard (it must be tough to get up for each impending loss).  The
	Illini led 38-24 at halftime after the Cats had sort of made a game
	of it early, though they were down 30-13 at one point after a 20-3
	Illinois streak.  Illinois then extended the lead to 60-39 before
	the walk-ons entered the game.  Northwestern, either leading the
	country in free throw shooting or in the top couple, again was 20 of
	26 for 77%, the one bright spot on the team.  The Illini dominated
	the boards 39-26.  Deon Thomas led the way with 22 points, while
	6'11" Kevin Rankin had 19 for Bill Foster & Co.  12,068 on hand...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#62  Illinois at #40 PURDUE             7:00 pm CST
 
Thursday:
 
	#4   Indiana at #224 NORTHWESTERN       7:00 pm
	#45  Iowa at #25 MICHIGAN STATE         7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#25  Michigan State at #50 WISCONSIN    Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#224 Northwestern at #3 OHIO STATE      2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#45  Iowa at #60 MICHIGAN               7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#40  Purdue at #4 INDIANA               1:00 pm  ABC (National)
	#62  Illinois at #68 MINNESOTA          3:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Monday:
 
	#60  Michigan at #3 OHIO STATE          8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    3      3    Ohio State        18-1     8-1
    4      4    Indiana           20-2     8-1
   62     35    Illinois          16-6     6-3
   25     25    Michigan State    13-6     6-3
   45     48    Iowa              15-6     4-5
   50     NR    Wisconsin         10-9     4-5
   40     NR    Purdue            11-8     3-6
   68     NR    Minnesota         10-9     3-6
   60     46    Michigan          10-9     3-6  Give me a break, AP!
  224     NR    Northwestern       5-14    0-9

    Wail, looks like my preseason prediction that Illinois would be at
    the top of the bottom of the heap is coming true.  The Illini's big
    road win in Mackey serves notice that they cain challenge State and
    maybe even Indiana for 2nd place this year - especially if Kaufmann
    gets untracked, what with Deon and all.
    
    The thing to remember about Indiana is that they haven't made a 
    really tough road trip yet, with these visits remaining:
    
    St. John
    Breslin
    Assembly Hall - Illinois
    Crisler
    Mad City
    
    This list leaves the Hoosiers the most likely to drop off during the
    second half of the schedule.  The question is, willy they collapse and
    end up behind State or maybe even Illinois or Wisconsin.  They showed
    some class against Iowa and Minnesota on the road, but the 5 toughest
    road games all remain.
    
    Big10 Tom

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-7-91)  NCAA
Date: 7 Feb 91 16:54:43 GMT
 
Wednesday's Trainwreck:
 
	#62  Illinois 59, #40 PURDUE 56:  I'll spare you the details of this
	game, mostly because I can't bear to think about them again and also
	because the game was an instant replay of every other Purdue
	loss this year (except Wisconsin):  Purdue trails the first ten
	minutes of the game as the offense is non-existent, then puts on a
	spurt to close out the first half with a modest lead (36-28, was
	36-26 with 3 minutes left in the half), then comes out flat as a
	pancake in the second half, scoring 20 measley points, missing all
	but one free throw, but not relinquishing the lead until the horrid
	final 3+ minutes when neither team could hit a free throw.  Illinois
	did it's best to play the gracious visitor, committing two
	ridiculous turnovers in the final 30 seconds, with the score 59-56,
	but then gladly taking the victory after Purdue missed every three
	point attempt it took, including 5 in the final 12 seconds.  Jimmy
	Oliver was the only Boilermaker who looked of Big Ten caliber.
	Chuckie White had one of his worst games in a Purdue uniform,
	fouling out with 6 points and a couple of boards.  Deon Thomas had a
	nice second half for Illinois, as did Larry Smith.  This game was
	a typical foul-marred Big Ten tilt.  14,123 disgruntled fans at
	Mackey Arena saw history - the first Purdue team to ever lose 5
	games in one season in Mackey's 23-year history.  The loss was also
	it's fourth straight and sixth out of it's last 7, the worst such
	period since a 7 out of 8 streak two years ago.  Keady had his
	tersest post-game show ever.  Illinois has now won 5 straight,
	somehow...  I'll disagree with the recent post-er who thought this
	was a "great game".  It was terribly played on both sides,
	foul-marred, and like having your teeth pulled as you watched.
	A quick flip to the UNC-NC State game revealed a different caliber
	of basketball, frankly...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#4   Indiana at #224 NORTHWESTERN       7:00 pm
	#45  Iowa at #25 MICHIGAN STATE         7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#25  Michigan State at #50 WISCONSIN    Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#224 Northwestern at #3 OHIO STATE      2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#45  Iowa at #60 MICHIGAN               7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#40  Purdue at #4 INDIANA               1:00 pm  ABC (National)
	#62  Illinois at #68 MINNESOTA          3:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Monday:
 
	#60  Michigan at #3 OHIO STATE          8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    3      3    Ohio State        18-1     8-1
    4      4    Indiana           20-2     8-1
   62     35    Illinois          17-6     7-3
   25     25    Michigan State    13-6     6-3
   45     48    Iowa              15-6     4-5
   50     NR    Wisconsin         10-9     4-5
   68     NR    Minnesota         10-9     3-6
   60     46    Michigan          10-9     3-6
   40     NR    Purdue            11-9     3-7
  224     NR    Northwestern       5-14    0-9

 
�	#4   Indiana at #224 NORTHWESTERN       7:00 pm

# 224 !!!???

Is that a little Charles' humor, or does some service actually rank
every team in the nation?
How high does it go?

Mike JN

    	I think some pinhead at the National rates every one of 'em
    Mike JN.  Imagine deciding who should be #200 and who should be
    #201?  GET A LIFE!
    
    				/Don

    With State being dropped at home by the inconsistent but dangerous
    Hawkeyes the Illini are well positioned to take 3rd, even conceivably
    2nd, place in the Big10.  Should that happen then we're looking at a
    probable max of three teams in the tournament - although I'd like to
    see Wisconsin sneak in along with State, IU, and the Bucks.
    
    What IS it with Peplowski?  His knee's not bothering him anymore, but
    he flip-flops from being the best middlemain in the league to a non-
    entity (last nite: 2 points).
    
    Big10 Tom

    Mike, I crosspost the "reports" from usenet and they were written by a
    guy Peppler in Illinois.  The # ranking is I think the Sagarin power
    ratings.  Sagarin I think lists all division I programs, every single
    one of them.
    
    Charles
    

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-8-91)  NCAA
Date: 8 Feb 91 16:15:53 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#4  Indiana 105, #224 NORTHWESTERN 74:  Northwestern definitely
	gave IU a run for it in the first half, but the Hoosiers steamrolled
	the Cats in the second half.  NU actually led on several occasions,
	with the largest lead at 25-19 midway through the half.  The
	Hoosiers tied the score up at 27, but the Cats took a couple of more
	small leads before the Hoosiers tied it for the last time at 33.  IU
	then outscored the Cats 10-2 to end the first half and lead 43-35.
	The Hoosiers then opened the second half with an 18-11 run to lead
	61-46, and then coasted home.  The second half was 62-39 IU!
	Calbert Cheaney led the Hoosiers with 21, while Eric Anderson
	chipped in 16 points.  Five Hoosiers reached double figures.  Four
	Wildcats reached double digits.  The Hoosiers had a very good
	shooting and rebounding second half.  A sellout of 8,117 at
	Welsh-Ryan...
 
#45 Iowa 71, #25 MICHIGAN STATE 67:  Unfortunately, I have very
	little detail on this one, but Iowa handed the Spartans just their
	second loss ever on the Breslin Center court.  After losing
	15-straight Big Ten road tilts, the Hawkeyes have now won two
	straight at two of the tougher places to win at.  Iowa led 29-28 at
	the break, and led by Acie Earl's strong scoring and inside play,
	were able to win this one at the end.  A very disappointed sellout
	crowd in East Lansing.  Jim Szabo, the Iowa radio announcer, was
	practically beserk during the post-game show.  He and James Moses
	had a great chat.  The Hawkeyes have never won at both MSU and
	Michigan in the same year, but now get the chance to do that
	Saturday at Ann Arbor.  I'll try to add a bit about this very
	interesting game in Monday's report...
 
 
Saturday:
 
	#25  Michigan State at #50 WISCONSIN    Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#224 Northwestern at #3 OHIO STATE      2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#45  Iowa at #60 MICHIGAN               7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#40  Purdue at #4 INDIANA               1:00 pm  ABC (National)
	#62  Illinois at #68 MINNESOTA          3:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Monday:
 
	#60  Michigan at #3 OHIO STATE          8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    4      4    Indiana           21-2     9-1
    3      3    Ohio State        18-1     8-1
   62     35    Illinois          17-6     7-3
   25     25    Michigan State    13-7     6-4
   45     48    Iowa              16-6     5-5
   50     NR    Wisconsin         10-9     4-5
   68     NR    Minnesota         10-9     3-6
   60     46    Michigan          10-9     3-6
   40     NR    Purdue            11-9     3-7
  224     NR    Northwestern       5-15    0-10

From: [email protected] (JIM SLATER, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Ex-Hoosier Edwards has no regrets
Date: 10 Feb 91 20:13:30 GMT
 
	BLOOMINGTON, Ind. (UPI) -- Jay Edwards returned to Assembly Hall on
Sunday, having made peace with his troubled past while looking toward
his NBA future.
	Edwards departed the Hoosiers for the NBA in 1989 after his sophomore
season, ending a college career marred by academic suspension and drug
rehabilitation. Had Edwards stayed in school, he would have been a
senior on the fourth-ranked Indiana team he saw play arch-rival Purdue
Sunday.
	The forward who earned Big Ten Freshman of the Year honors and was
named a UPI All-America as a sophomore admitted having second thoughts
about leaving the Hoosiers early.
	``I think about it a lot,'' Edwards said. ``The decision was made and
I have to stick with it. I have thoughts both ways. I can't regret it. I
have to live with it.''
	Edwards was selected by the Los Angeles Clippers in the NBA draft,
but saw little playing time before failing a rookie drug test. He was
reinstated last month but is on the injured list after spending the past
10 months rehabilitating injured knee ligaments. Edwards is expected to
rejoin the active roster when the Clippers play San Antonio Feb. 22.
	``I just need the chance to get in and show what I can do,'' Edwards
said. ``I'll get that chance. I just had to do a lot of growing up. I
learned a lot in the past two years. I did all the growing up watching
other people play while I had personal problems and injuries.''
	Edwards spoke with Indiana Coach Bob Knight during a three-day campus
visit that lifted his spirits.
	``I sat down a couple of days ago,'' Edwards said. ``We had a nice
talk. I told him where I was at. It feels good to come back and be
accepted.''
	Edwards blames himself for drug use, citing his reaction to the star
treatment he received since leading Marion High to three straight
Indiana state prep titles.
	``It wasn't peer pressure,'' Edwards said. ``Anything I did is
because I wanted to do it. I had a lot of opportunities as a player. I
took advantage of them. Everything came so easy to me all the way
through high school.''
	Edwards misses having Indiana senior Lyndon Jones as a teammate.
Jones was benched much of the past two seasons, but has returned to lead
a young Indiana squad. Until Edwards departed, he and Jones were
teammates since grade school.
	``I talk to Lyndon on the phone at least once a week -- good times and
bad,'' Edwards said. ``I try to help him out with that and he's helped
me. We've been friends since I was 5. He's survived a lot, being on the
bench. (My departure) has affected us both. He knows how I play and I
can take the pressure off him. He has players now who can do that.''
	Knight dropped Edwards from the Indiana team after his freshman year
for poor grades. Edwards worked his way back onto the squad over the
summer despite undergoing drug rehabilitation. Edwards quit school after
his second season after alleged threats and an incident involving
charges he slapped a female student.

 Any details on the Badgers beating of MSU would be greatly appreciated.


 Also for those of you in the New England area who get pissed off at ABC
 for not carrying the Big ten clashes oposite  NBC and CBS's games, channel
 27 WHLL out Worcester carries them. This sunday's the rematch of IU/OSU
 should decide the conference...

 mike

    Re: Boston's ABC station not showing ABC Sunday college games: I have
    complained about it for a long time.  Now that I am in the SF Bay Area
    both the SF and San Jose ABC affiliates do show those games, in favor
    of Boston favorite "Star Search" featuring favorite son Ed McMahon. 
    Sure when there is a Pac-10 game in an ABC regional broadcast they will
    show that instead of the Big Ten game, but like yesterday at least the
    Purdue-IU game was shown though the Illinois-Minnesota game was not. 
    Still beats my trying to catch the Worcester broadcast in Boston, which
    is usually "have sound, no picture."
    
    Charles
    

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-11-91)  NCAA
Date: 11 Feb 91 19:07:40 GMT
 
Saturday's Results:
 
#50 WISCONSIN 84, #25 Michigan State 78 (2OT):  It took two
	overtimes, but Wisconsin finally managed to win one of these home
	cliffhangers which they so often blow.  The key play of the second
	OT and game was an airball by Jay Peters, which Pat Tompkins grabbed
	and layed back (and was fouled).  His three points gave the Badgers
	a 78-74 lead which it would not give up.  At times, the extra
	sessions looked like Steve Smith highlight films, but he just
	couldn't do it all.  Wisconsin committed a couple of boneheaded
	turnovers at the end of regulation which allowed State to tie it and
	nearly win it.  Larry Hisle missed two more FTs near the end of
	regulation which could have won it, but atoned with some clutch
	shooting during the overtimes.  The score was only 58-all at the end
	of regulation and 64-all at the end of the first OT.  Tompkins led
	the Badgers with 22 points, while John Ellenson had 14 and Hisle and
	Tim Locum each had 13.  Smith had 28 for State and Matt Steigenga 20
	in one of his better showings.  Wisconsin nailed 8 treys and
	outscored the Spartans by 11 from the line.  11,501 in Madison...
 
#3  OHIO STATE 96, #224 Northwestern 64:  The Cats hung tough for a
	half, but the Buckeyes blew them out in the second half.
	Nevertheless, it amounted to NU's 43rd straight Big Ten road loss.
	The Buckeyes just had six days off since beating Purdue, and it
	showed early, as they looked a bit rusty.  The halftime lead was
	only 44-32, but was widened quickly in a 52-32 second half.  The
	Buckeyes had 26 assists and pounded the Cats on the boards 38-19.
	Jim Jackson scored 26 points and Perry Carter 16.  Todd Leslie had
	19 for Northwestern, before 13,276...
 
#60 MICHIGAN 84, #45 Iowa 70:  Iowa didn't get it's much-coveted
	Michigan sweep, as the Wolverines whipped them in Ann Arbor.  The
	Wolverines continue to impress, as they've now beaten the Hawkeyes
	ten straight times in Crisler Arena.  The Wolverines had their way
	most of the game, leading 41-29 at the break and by as much as 66-49
	in the second frame.  Michael Talley led the way with 21 points,
	while Chris Street and Jay Webb each had 15 for Dr. Tom Davis.
	Michigan managed to do a good job keeping Iowa off of the boards,
	which others haven't done very well lately.  The teams combined to
	make only 5 of 20 three point shots.  12,644 at Crisler...
 
 
Sunday's Results:
 
#4  INDIANA 81, #40 Purdue 63:  Like Wisconsin recently, Purdue
	managed not to get routed at the Assembly Hall, but the outcome
	never really seemed in doubt, either.  The game looked to be a
	yawner at the beginning, with the Hoosiers racing out to a 10-0 lead
	before Gene Keady had seen enough.  Purdue cut the margin to 10-5,
	but over the next 10 minutes the Hoosiers built a 28-13 lead.  The
	Boilers then managed to cut the lead to five at 28-23 on 5 of 7
	shooting.  IU then scored the next 7 to lead 35-23, and led 41-27 at
	the break.  Purdue had a pretty good opening 7 minutes of the second
	half, cutting the lead to 6 at one point (46-40), and still only
	trailed by 7 a couple of minutes later at 50-43.  But, the Hoosiers
	then regained a 10-12 point lead and kept that until the very end,
	when registering their largest lead with the final margin.  Jamaal
	Meeks had 10 points during the game's critical second half stretch
	when IU widened the slim six-point lead.  Purdue made 12 turnovers
	in the first half, many of them very early.  Travis Trice, who a few
	games ago looked pretty good, can't even dribble a basketball at the
	moment.  Jimmy Oliver got a little more help this time, as Chuckie
	White matched him with 17 points.  IU's Calbert Cheaney had 18 to
	lead all point-getters.  Damon Bailey had 13 after going scoreless
	the first time these two friendly foes met, and Pat Graham had 10.
	IU only outscored Purdue by two from the floor, but cashed in at the
	line, making 32 of 39.  Purdue outrebounded the Hoosiers 37 to 33
	and hit 7 treys, but still only shot 38% for the game.  Keady got
	the obligatory Assembly Hall technical.  Cheaney became only the
	fifth IU soph to eclipse the 1,000 point mark.  The loss was
	Purdue's 5th straight and 7th out of 8.  But, as Jim Valvano said,
	"they are probably playing the best they can, given what they've
	got."  17,283 fans saw IU get the measure of Purdue this sports
	season, with the coveted "trifecta"...
 
 
#62 Illinois 94, #68 MINNESOTA 74:  The Illini finally won AND
	played well while doing it.  In fact, they were sensational,
	dominating the Gophers beginning with the final five minutes of the
	first half.  The Illini hit over 50% from the field for the first
	time since mid-December against Mizzou, and hit an incredible 33
	of 37 free throws, as the Gophers continued to hack the opposition.
	The Gophers did play well early, and led by six with just 5:28 left
	in the first half.  That's when Illinois, led by Rennie Clemons,
	went on a 17-1 tear which saw them blister the nets on fast breaks
	while the Gophers were throwing up clunkers from short-range on the
	other end.  The Illini led 47-35 at the break, but the Gophers
	closed to 49-45 early in the second half.  That comeback ended
	quickly as the Illini scored 13 consecutive markers to lead 62-45,
	and the closest Minnesota could get thereafter was 8 points.  I
	think the final margin was the largest lead.  Illinois ruled the
	boards 46-36.  Andy Kaufmann scored 28 points, Larry Smith 25 and
	Deon Thomas 19.  Clemons only had 9, but most of those got the team
	going with the lead.  Kevin Lynch had 28 for Minnesota.  The Gophers
	were only 3 of 16 from beyond the arc.  Just a couple of short weeks
	ago the Gophers let one get away in Champaign, but these two teams
	have headed in opposite directions since.  16,305 at Williams Arena
	saw the Gophers lose yet another home game and the Illini win their
	6th straight...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#60  Michigan at #3 OHIO STATE             8:30 pm  CST ESPN
 
Thursday:
 
	#25  Michigan State at #224 NORTHWESTERN   7:00 pm
	#3   Ohio State at #50 WISCONSIN           7:00 pm
	#68  Minnesota at #45 IOWA                 8:30 pm  ESPN
 
Saturday:
 
	#62  Illinois at #25 MICHIGAN STATE        Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#68  Minnesota at #40 PURDUE               2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#60  Michigan at #224 NORTHWESTERN         7:00 pm
	#50  Wisconsin at #45 IOWA                 7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#4   Indiana at #3 OHIO STATE              1:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Next Monday:
 
	#40  Purdue at #60 MICHIGAN                8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    4      4    Indiana           22-2    10-1
    3      3    Ohio State        19-1     9-1
   62     35    Illinois          18-6     8-3
   25     25    Michigan State    13-8     6-5
   50     NR    Wisconsin         11-9     5-5
   45     48    Iowa              16-7     5-6
   60     46    Michigan          11-9     4-6
   68     NR    Minnesota         10-10    3-7
   40     NR    Purdue            11-10    3-8
  224     NR    Northwestern       5-16    0-11

    I thought some channel like 27 picks it up... some UHF station.  It's
    in the 30's on my cable box.
    
    _Walt

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-12-91)  NCAA
Date: 12 Feb 91 21:13:59 GMT
 
Monday's Results:
 
	#3 OHIO STATE 81, #60 Michigan 65:  A really good ballgame to watch,
	as Michigan had just enough athletic talent (except Eric Riley, who
	may be a bigger stiff thatn you-know-who) to make this game
	interesting.  The Wolverines caught the Buckeyes cold early, jumping
	out to a 7-2 lead.  But, Ohio State ripped ahead after the first TV
	timeout 16-9, and had a nine-point lead until the Wolverines drilled
	a J to end the first half, with the score 36-29 Buckeyes.  At times
	Ohio State threatened to blow the Wolverines out in the second half,
	but either Demetrius Calip or Michael Talley would drill a couple of
	threes to keep it interesting.  Ohio State's front line of Treg Lee
	and Perry Carter totally dominated the Michigan interior people, and
	the press forced Michigan into countless turnovers.  Chris Jent
	showed everyone why he is "Mr. Hustle".  Jim Jackson also had a
	field day driving into the paint.  Ohio State did not get much from
	it's guards, though, and Dick Vitale thought they were thinking
	ahead to Indiana on Sunday.  They better not be, as they have a date
	in Madison on Thursday, which could be very interesting.  It's too
	bad ESPN isn't showing that.  Talley had a great scoring game but
	also committed a bunch of turnovers.  Lee and Carter had a couple of
	prolific dunks which moved Dick to scream his famous "MONSTER MASH"
	line.  13,276 fans in St. John's getting ready for Sunday...
 
 
Thursday:
 
	#25  Michigan State at #224 NORTHWESTERN   7:00 pm
	#3   Ohio State at #50 WISCONSIN           7:00 pm
	#68  Minnesota at #45 IOWA                 8:30 pm  ESPN
 
Saturday:
 
	#62  Illinois at #25 MICHIGAN STATE        Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#68  Minnesota at #40 PURDUE               2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#60  Michigan at #224 NORTHWESTERN         7:00 pm
	#50  Wisconsin at #45 IOWA                 7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#4   Indiana at #3 OHIO STATE              1:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Next Monday:
 
	#40  Purdue at #60 MICHIGAN                8:30 pm  ESPN
 
 
RECORDS:
         New
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    3      2    Ohio State        20-1    10-1
    4      4    Indiana           22-2    10-1
   62     26    Illinois          18-6     8-3
   25     42    Michigan State    13-8     6-5
   50     NR    Wisconsin         11-9     5-5
   45     44    Iowa              16-7     5-6
   60     NR    Michigan          11-10    4-7
   68     NR    Minnesota         10-10    3-7
   40     NR    Purdue            11-10    3-8
  224     NR    Northwestern       5-16    0-11

    [Excerpt from recent Eric Montross interview by Carolina Blue]
    
    Carolina Blue:	"Eric, has playing in the ACC been all that you 
    			 expected it to be?"
    
    Montross:		"I think it's been more than I expected.  I knew
    			 what the Big 10 was like, and I had been to the 
    			 (N.C.) State game here before I committed, but I
    			 hadn't experienced it firsthand.  I had always
    			 heard that the Big 10 was the craziest and the
    			 loudest and all of that, but I think they should
    	 		 all wake up and realize that the ACC is even more
    			 so.  I think you can't really compare the 
    			 experience of going to Virginia and playing at
    			 Duke to some other games."
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Who cares what he thinks about crowd noise? What does he think about the
 play? Does he think it's less physical than the Big Ten, Big East (as I do}?
 The ACC to me seems to be a quards/small forward league whilst the Big Ten
 and Big East are the domain of the Wide Bodies/Physical players.

 Also again it's from Caroline Blew(tm) so it should be taken with a grain
 of salt...

 

    Apparently the experience was just soooo great that Montross left his 
    game back in the Midwest...
    
    glenn
    

    � I think you can't really compare the experience of going to Virginia
    � and playing at Duke to some other games.
    
    Looks like Eric took geography lessons from T.
    
    Sir Robert of Hunt

    Montross' game is just fine, thank you, and it's gonna get a whole lot
    better as time goes on.  
    
    I dunnot know if Eric thinks the ACC is better than the Big Least or
    Bigot 1X but, based on his choice of school, I could make some purty
    good guesses!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 and my guess would be that he's wuss and went where there were no physical
 players to beat him up. With Christian Lattiner as the premire big man in
 the conference you do lack a physical presence in the post. Lattiner's got
 a great game but physicaliness isn't one of it's attributes...

 of course you think Eric's game is fine, you thing Dean's a great coach...

 nuff said

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-15-91)  NCAA
Date: 15 Feb 91 16:26:52 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#32 Michigan State 55, #223 NORTHWESTERN 53:  This was
	Northwestern's best attempt at Big Ten victory, as the Wildcats led
	until 1:25 was left in the game, and the Spartans limped out of
	Evanston fortunate to win.  The Wildcats had leads of 19-12 and
	23-15 in the first half before settling on a 28-21 advantage at the
	break.  The lead was expanded to as many as 10 points in the second
	half before the Spartans mounted their comeback, and took their
	first lead at the 1:25 mark, 51-49.  The Wildcats missed a very long
	three attempt at the final horn after each team traded four points,
	and Bill Foster took out his frustration on a chair.  Parish Hickman
	was the only Spartan in double figures with 15 points, as Steve
	Smith was held to a season-low 8 points.  Kevin Rankin led a
	balanced NU attack with 19 points.  6,002 at Welsh-Ryan...
 
#4  Ohio State 73, #49 WISCONSIN 71:  Wisconsin overcame a 12-point
	halftime deficit and some larger early second half ones to almost
	knock-off the Buckeyes.  During one stretch in the first half the
	Buckeyes ran off 20-straight points, and led 41-29 at the break.
	They still led 51-37 several minutes into the second half when the
	Badgers ripped off a 24-9 streak and took a 61-60 lead with 5:37 to
	go.  Ohio State regained a 64-61 lead with 3:06 left, and the game
	was closely contested the rest of the way.  The Badgers trailed
	71-68 when Louis Ely hit a short shot and ensuing free throw with
	:35 left to tie the score at 71.  Then, the Buckeyes held the ball
	until the :11 mark, called a timeout, and finally Mark Baker hit a
	twisting J in the paint to win it as the clock expired.  Jim Jackson
	led Ohio State with 21 points, while sharpshooter Tim Locum had 23
	for the Badgers.  A great comeback for Wisconsin, and a huge win for
	Ohio State ahead of Sunday's date with Indiana.  10,525 at The
	Fieldhouse...
 
#47 IOWA 82, #79 Minnesota 69:  The Hawkeyes pretty much had their
	way with the Gophers after about the first 10-15 minutes of the
	game.  Iowa got off to a very slow start, scoring only 5 points in
	the first 8 minutes of the game, but then got it going and took an
	8-point halftime lead.  Leads in the second half dwindled to as
	little as 5 early, but then were as large as 15.  Minnesota was
	hitting it's threes late, so they managed to stay withing striking
	distance.  However, the Gopher inside game was practically
	non-existent again, and Iowa was able to wear them down.  No other
	details on this game, except the Iowa crowd seemed awfully quiet,
	and Wayne Larivee, the ESPN announcer, referred to Bruce Pearl
	as a "fine coach" (that's for you Illinois fans!).  Probably the
	usual 15,500 at Carver-Hawkeye...
  
Saturday:
 
	#38  Illinois at #32 MICHIGAN STATE        Noon CST Big Ten/Raycom
	#79  Minnesota at #48 PURDUE               2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#52  Michigan at #223 NORTHWESTERN         7:00 pm
	#49  Wisconsin at #47 IOWA                 7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#2   Indiana at #4 OHIO STATE              1:00 pm  ABC (Regional)
 
Monday:
 
	#48  Purdue at #52 MICHIGAN                8:30 pm  ESPN
  
RECORDS:
 
Sagarin   AP    School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ------          -------  -------
 
    4      2    Ohio State        21-1    11-1
    2      4    Indiana           22-2    10-1
   38     26T   Illinois          18-6     8-3
   32     42    Michigan State    14-8     7-5
   47     44    Iowa              17-7     6-6
   49     NR    Wisconsin         11-10    5-6
   52     NR    Michigan          11-10    4-7
   48     NR    Purdue            11-10    3-8
   79     NR    Minnesota         10-11    3-8
  223     NR    Northwestern       5-17    0-12

    If Eric has a physical weakness it's quickness.  If he were a "wuss"
    the last place he'd wanna show up is the ACC, where quick big men are
    plentiful.  (Laettner, Davis, Mackey, Rogers, Gugliotta, etc.)  Eric
    can bang with *anybody*.  Just ask Shack, who confessed recently his
    toughest defensive opponent to date was Montross over the summer in
    those north/south games.
    
    No, Eric's no dummy (SAT scores upward of 1300).  He took a look at
    Dean's 10/17 success ratio in turning big men into high-salaried
    professional hoopsters (should be 11/18 - Chilcutt looks like NBA
    material to me) and realized his earnings potential was best served by
    signing up with Coach Smith.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    � He took a look at Dean's 10/17 success ratio in turning big men into
    � high-salaried professional hoopsters ... and realized his earnings
    � potential was best served by signing up with Coach Smith.
    
 What, no mention of Eric getting his precious college degree ???    Then,
 in your words, he's a "hired gun", right ???
 
 Hey, if it looks like a hired gun, acts like a hired gun, and sounds like
 a hired gun, it's probably a hired gun.
 
 Nuf said.
 
 Sir Robert of Hunt

    Big diff Ketch.  Namely, Eric also intends to get a degree out of the
    process.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris,
    
    How *do* you know Eric intends to get a degree?? How do you know the
    dove didn't??  Face it Chris, the *only* reason this is an issue is
    because it happened in the Big East, and not the ACC.  And it happened
    with, *gasp*, foreigners.  
    
    If Eric, or any other *American* really intends to get an education
    first, then they should get their degree *beforee* going into the pros.
    
    JD

    In my not-so-humble opinion, most of the young men who play major
    college football and basketball are hired guns, are brainwashed into
    thinking they're going to make the pros, see no reason to study and
    will try to skate by as much as they possibly can.  If you look at the
    percentage of those who finish 4 years of eligibility the graduation
    percentage as a whole is pretty low (though I will admit some schools,
    among them North Carolina in hoops, are better than others).
    
    To suggest that big-time football and basketball has anything
    whatsoever to do with the educational process is not only incorrect,
    but a complete hypocrisy.  It's no more wrong for a foreign student to
    come here and use the system for all it's worth than it is for an
    American to do the same thing.  After all, the system will use that
    person and the person will find it's his own responsibility to make
    sure he gets the education he's playing for.
    
    To me it makes no difference whether a student is a native born
    American, a foreigner or an alien from another planet.  If that person
    is qualified to play a particular sport, let him play it under the same
    eligibility rules as any American citizen.
    
    American, Land of Opportunity.
    
    John
    

Let's not forget that foreign hired gun for the Tar Heels, "Hank" Rodl.

TTom

    Only diff TTom is Henrik fully intends on getting his diploma.
    
    Forget about The Dove and Marco for a sec and consider the case of
    Andrew Gaze, who helped SHU reach the Final 2 a couple_a years ago.  He
    has openly admitted that he came over here for one reason:  to play
    basektball.  Once hoops season was over he packed his bags and headed
    home - forget about completing the semester!  That's a Hired Gun,
    folks.  It gave SHU a competitive advantage (going out and bringing in
    a season pro like Gaze) and it goes against everything that has to do
    with the student/athlete concept.  (Yes folks, some of us still believe
    in that archaic concept.)
    
    This kind of thing is wrong.  Flat out wrong.  And for those of you who
    can't see the difference between Andrew Gaze and Henrik Rodl or Eric
    Montross, I can only sadly shake my haid and say (in true Mike Childs
    fashion) "You STOOPID!"
    
    (Many ;^)'s after that last crack!)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Bob, you could go on to also say that Montross, after only a few
    months under 'Snuffy, is beginning to walk, talk, and sound like
    a *duck*.
    
    People in Hoosierland, who know their hoops, are deeply disappointed
    in what's happening to poor Montross.  It was his and Bob's tough
    luck about the unfortunate contretemps between the Pantheon-dweller
    and Eric's old man shyster (when Eric was only a tyke of 10 or so)
    that stemmed from Bob's unflinching committment to his players and
    to his personal Bob-ethics, that robbed poor Eric of the opportunity
    to learn from the Master and forced him to go to a choke-aholic like
    Smif'.  
    
    Cruel fate knows no mercy.
    
    Big10 Tom

>    Forget about The Dove and Marco for a sec ...

All fine and good, Chris, but you broght it up with regard to Marco.  By
the time Bob Hunt is finished with you and your "looks like" you'll wish
we'd all forget about everything you've said.

Besides, I know the difference between Gaze and Rodl: Gaze is from
Australia and is a better basketball player. Where Montross fits into the
ratings remains to be seen.

TTom

    Gaze was under pressure from his father to return to Oz and compete on
    his hoop team, which floundered without him.  
    
    And Chris, when you get a scholarship from a college, they don't, at
    least from what I know, ever ask you 'Do you intend to finish all 4
    years and get a degree'.   They want to make sure you'll arrive in good
    shape, you'll go to class and get acceptable grades, and help the team
    - and if not, you're gone, unless you're a star like King Rice.
    
    Funny, Chris, Andrew Gaze and this gosh darn foreigners are horrible
    for college hoops cause they may be hired guns, yet King Rice, who's a
    hired gun who beats up women, are otay in yours and Dean's eyes.  
    
    JD

I agree with Crisp in that bringing in a foreigner whose only intention is to
play basketball is wrong. Andrew Gaze being the best example.

However....how is one to know that the foreign student being brought in has
no intention of attempting to study? You don't. Therefore you can't ban the
schools from bringing these guys in because you might be discriminating against
the guy whose intention is to come to the states, play some hoop and get a 
degree also.

Did Manute Bol ever graduate from bridgeport? Did Henfield really never intend
to finish up school or was he pressured into changing his mind? Unless the 
admittance board can read minds I don't think you should pass any rules stating
when a foreign player can or can not be brought to a school under scholarship.

that's my HO,


 Metz

    Correct Metz, there's a difficult if not impossible problem in
    proving that they're_a Hired Gun.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and
    doesn't mean it's right.
    
    As to Montross being a failure MorT, I think it's a tad premature for
    that label.  His numbers right now are solid albiet unspectacular, but
    he's shown flashes of being *dominant*.
    
    (Course, when that happens, we'll all here 'bout his boatloads of
    talent, but just remember, B10Bigot Doug Ross himself labeled the kid
    'journeyman', based on his astute scouting observations.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Okay, Soup, maybe he intends to get his degree.  Fine.
 
 So why North Carolina then ???  Indiana and Michigan both offer comparable
 undergraduate degree progams, don't they ???  
 
 So why The University of North Carolina then ???  In your own words,
 Chris, because Snuffy has put 10 out of 17 big men into the NBA and Eric
 figured out that was a pretty good ratio.
 
 North Carolina ain't the *ONLY* school in the entire freakin' Milky Way
 galaxy to offer undergraduate degree programs, Chris.
 
 By your logic, Eric Montross came to North Carolina and thus did not go to
 another school for the singular purpose of getting himself better prepared
 to play professional basketball.
 
 And *THAT* is the same thing you dinged Henefeld at Connecticut and Gaze
 and Lokar at Seton Hall for yesterday and today.   That's the exact same
 criteria you used to call these three players "hired guns".   You were
 advised to drop it early in yesterday's debate but you kept at it ...
 
 You can't have your soup and sip it, too, Soup.
 
 Bob Hunt
 
 P.S. Obviously, Montross ignored Dean's other ratio.  You know, that 1 out
 of 30 one.

    Crisp, don't brandish the ridiculous spectre of Doug Ross' hoops 
    "expertise" in my face and expect anything but crossed eyes and one
    very loudy stinking fart.  (Doug routinely communicates to me via
    mail seeking my consultancy on college roundball.)
    
    >His numbers right now are solid albiet [sic] unspectacular,
    
    As for Eric, let's just leave it that the word "disappointment" is
    being used in his case and that's that.  He's shown flashes mainly of
    being both poorly used and poorly taught and on the low road to the
    middle of Nowhere.
    
    As for Andrew Gaze, let's not forgeth the tens of thousands of dollars
    deposited into a trust fund in Andy's name by investors in his dad's
    pro team, with the idea being that the dough would serve as a retainer
    for his continued services after his return from one year of quality
    training in big-time American college hoops.
    
    But many foreign students are true students.  Uwe Blab, for one, graduated
    with top honors in math or comp sci or somesuch.  Or this Watusi kid from
    Burundi at Minnesota right now, he's skeering his teammates cuz he's taking
    Phsyics as a_*elective*.  If anything these foreign students are better
    prepared to compete as real students cuz they don't come from America's
    sad-sack educational system.
    
    In fack, I just wish that Bob would start recruiting internationally. He
    already ties a hand behind his broad muscular back by recruiting only in
    the immediate area (IN, IL, OH, & sometimes MI) and not nationally, and
    with IU's famous Languages Institute it'd be perfect!  Recruit tall Germans
    Bob!!
    
    Big10 Tom

 �   Correct Metz, there's a difficult if not impossible problem in
 �   proving that they're_a Hired Gun.  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and
 �   doesn't mean it's right.
 
 Yesterday it was real easy to spot a "hired gun", right ???  Hey, if it
 looked like, acted like, and sounded like, it was case closed and "Nuf
 said".  Now today, it's difficult if not impossible to spot one.
 
 How about if we make this easy for you ... they're all hired guns.  They
 play basketball and receive financial incentives to do so.  Their
 nationalities, their study habits, and their graduation rates have
 *nothing* to do with this simple fact.
 
 And as for Eric Montross and his performance so far, I think it speaks
 loud and clear volumes that young Mr. Montross won't even come close to
 earning ACC Rookie Of The Year.  Rodney Rogers is a lock for that.  In
 fact, I don't think Montross has even won a single ACC Rookie Of The Week
 award.   Pretty sorry performance for the 1990 High School Player Of The
 Year, wouldn't you say ???   Somehow I don't think you will.
 
 Sir Robert of Hunt

What a game yesterday.  Ohio State beat Indiana 97-95 in double OT.  Jimmy
Jackson was immense yesterday, hitting the shot to send it into the first OT
and making the pass to Treg Lee to set up the winning hoop.   Damon Bailey
was fantastic as well for the Hoosiers scoring a career best {short career}
32 points and taking charge after Calbert Cheaney fouled out.  Bailey did miss
a FT near the end of regulation that would have given the Hoosiers a 3 point
lead, but he also hit some big shots and handled the ball very well.   At 
some point, MrT is going to have to pull the old switcheroo and start calling
for Damon's HOF induction.

               
    I didn't get to see all of this one (I wish I had), only the
    overtimes.  Indiana did just about everything possible to give it away
    at the end of the first overtime.  With a four-point lead, they seemed
    to let down on defense, forced a bad shot with plenty of time left on 
    the shot clock in their next-to-last possession, didn't take a time out
    and got off only an off-balance heave on the last possession.  Most 
    unlike a Bob Knight-coached team, after having seemingly pulled off the 
    upset on the road with their best player on the bench...
    
    glenn
     

 Definately one of the best college games I've seen all year. Neither team
 could get more than a 4 point lead at any time. I could have watched a 
 dozen overtimes in this one. While IU did loose Calbert, OSU overcame the
 loss of their pointman Baker. Of course this is where JJ showed his versitily
 moving to point forward and controling the game for OSU. As Doug said Damon
 lived up to his advanced billing. OSU as Dicky was pointing out didn't use
 Carter enough as IU had no real answers defensively for him.

 I like Vitale on ABC he tones down his act alot and doesn't feel like he has
 to talk from start to finish without loosing his enthusiasium...

 mike

 Damon Bailey comes of age.   A monster game.
    
 I thought it was a riot listening to Keith Jackson do the play-by-play. 
 Boy, did he sound uncomfortable away from the football field.  I was
 expecting him to yell "FUMBLE" whenever a loose ball rolled by.  Lots of
 his trademark expressions like "Oh, my goodness" and "Oh, baby".  It was
 just way too much excitement for him with critical plays every 30 seconds
 or so.
    
 And is there anyone out there who does not yet know that the initials "P"
 and "T" when placed together mean "Playing Time" ???   Vitale insists on
 over-explaining what he thinks are his little nuances.   "Jent is getting
 the PT (playing time), baby, that's where it counts, baby."
    
 Bob Hunt

    re: Montross
    
    I pick up my paper Saturday and see stats as follows:
    
    		FGA-FGM		FTA-FTM		PTS
    
    R Rogers	 4 - 6		 1 - 4		 9
    G. Hill	 2 - 4     	 0 - 0		 4
    Montross     4 - 4  	 1 - 1		 9
    
    Eric won't be rookie-of-the-year, but he's playing *solid* basketball.
    Keep in mind he's playing behind a guy who'll probably be in the NBA.
    (Chilcutt)
    
    Eric's not even getting close to the minutes of other freshmen in 
    the league or the country.  Eric knew this coming in.  Dean's had
    the luxury of bringing him along slowly and is taking advantage of
    it.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

> By your logic, Eric Montross came to North Carolina and thus did not go to
> another school for the singular purpose of getting himself better prepared
> to play professional basketball.
 
> And *THAT* is the same thing you dinged Henefeld at Connecticut and Gaze
> and Lokar at Seton Hall for yesterday and today.   That's the exact same
> criteria you used to call these three players "hired guns".   You were
> advised to drop it early in yesterday's debate but you kept at it ...
 
You seem to be having a little problem with this concept Ketch, so have
a swig of java, put yer thinkin' cap on, sit back, and read carefully
whilst I try one more time ...

Eric Montross came to North Carolina (by his own admission) for TWO
reasons:

1. To get his degree.  (pre-law)
2. To give him the best possible shot of earning the big bucks in the pros

There's two reasons there.  TWO.  2.  T-W-O.  DOS.  II.

He chose North Carolina over other schools because of the basketball angle,
but that in no way eliminates the fact that he wanted to get his degree.  To
take it a step further to prove the point, the kid wanted to major in 
pre-law.  Not every school woulda sufficed in that category.  North Carolina
fit the bill on BOTH counts.

I've dinged Gaze and The Dove and Locar because they couldn't care about
#1, only #2.  Do you think any of these kids cared about what kinda majors
SHU or UConn offered?  I think not.  I *know* Gaze couldn't care.  He 
was a classic Hired Gun.  The fact that Locar followed in his footsteps
to the same school gives credence to my 'Looks like_a, Acts Like_a, 
Sounds Like_a, ... Probably is' theory.

HTH,


- ACC Chris
    

    re 1
    
    Just what is this "solid" basketball you keep harping about, Crisp?
    Solid like a cigar store Indian... as in STIFF?
    
    re The Game
    
    Classic game, but when it came crunch time the Hoosiers couldn't answer
    the bell, having blown not one, not two, not... you get the idea, they
    had several chances to win the thing and they never closed.  Granted, the
    Bucks played relentless D, but no more so at the end than at the tipoff.
    Here's how the Hoosiers blew the game (in approximate sequence):
    
    - Damon missing 2 foul shots (2-4) in the last minute of regulation which
      directly cost the win.
    
    - Calbert's *unbelievably* sloppy display of dribbing which allowed the
      other teams center to steal the ball at midcourt.  With 20 seconds to
      go all they had to do at that point was dribble the game out.
    
    - The referee's gutless inability to then call Perry for carrying the
      ball a la Barry Sanders atop his shoulder for two full steps on his way 
      to the slam-jam.
    
    - In the first OT, Gregg Graham failing to see Damon wide open underneath
      for several seconds as the final seconds of the first OT ticked away,
      thus missing a sure lay-in for the win.
    
    - In the second OT, Indiana's abject inability to stop Ohio State from
      grabbing offensive rebounds allowing them extra shots four straight 
      trips down the floor.  The centerless Hoosiers were outrebounded by at
      least 15 on the game.
    
    - Both clutch plays by JJ occured on called plays where he took the ball
      on the right side and dribbled straight down the paint.  On the first
      one, his bucket, Indiana had only the hapless Matt Nover to take him on
      with predictable results.  On the second, his dump off, Indiana was 
      forced to double team - a practice the Hoosiers rarely engage in but 
      were forced to revert to for lack of a widebody in the middle.
    
    The good news: Damon Bailey finally arrived as a player.  True, he choked
    at the line and cost his team a win, but he found his range from outside
    at long last. 
    
    Big10 Tom
    

    >He chose North Carolina over other schools for the basketball angle...
    
    Eric Montross publicly expressed a desire to play for home state hero
    Bob, but underwent extreme pressure from his father who publicly stated
    that he'd do anything to stop him from playing for Knight, after Bob
    publicly humiliated Eric Sr. into returning tens of thousands of dollars
    to the disabled ex-Hoosier player Landon Turner when Eric Sr. tried to
    take a full 50% of Turner's court damages awared as his lawyer in a lawsuit
    against an automaker.
    
    After that, it became a choice between Michigan (Eric Sr.'s alma mater)
    and the field.  That being so, it cain thus be said that Dean Smith edged
    out Steve Fisher in the recruiting battle for Eric Jr.'s services.
    
    Big10 Tom                                                         

Chris,

Who has developed more basketball-wise this season - Damon Bailey or Eric
Montross?   What one factor is responsible for that happening?   Do you think
Montross would be in the same stage of development/production had he gone to
IU?

True or False:

	    Eric Montross was overrated by all of the experts last year who
	    rated him the top big man in the senior class.   He should not 
	    have been expected to contribute anything beyond limited minutes
	    and coincidental offense to the Tar Heels.   He should not have 
	    been held up to the high standards usually expected of the top
            freshman big man in the country {like the Mourning's, Ewing's,
	    O'Neal's, Laettner's, etc.}  

    
    	Yesterdays game was the best I've seen Ohio State play in their
    last several attempts.  I would have liked to of seen them play more
    full court though.  I think they got the last second basket down pat
    right now.  
    
    	Hal

    Listening to MrT's whining about no big man during his game analysis,
    then explaining how one of the best big men in Indiana HS 
    history got away is truly music to my ears!
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Everybody knows that it's tougher for big men to adjust to the
    college game than the little guys.  But I do find it funny that you'd
    offer this comparison after Damon's best game (by far).  If he'd had
    his usual 8 points or so would you be so forthcoming? [no]
    
    As to your phony question, it all boils down to unrealistic expectations
    placed on 17 or 18 year olds by the media.  Kids who haven't even made
    a single collegiate hoop are hailed as the next Walton, West, or Russell. 
    
    It's ridiculous, but it sells.  (Only thing that matters, media-wise.)
    The logical mind would have to say it's much more meaningful to judge a
    coach based on the delta between when a player entered school and when he
    left.  Toward this end I'd offer 2nd tier HS talents Rick Fox
    and Pete Chilcutt as evidence of Dean's tutelage.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Montross would definitely be playing much better right now if he 
    were with Indiana.  He looks the same now as he did last year with
    Lawrence Central.  Especially shocking is that he's still allowed
    to play that shuffling high school footwork, playing with his legs
    too close together, standing to straight, with his arms too far from
    his body.  Eric's lack of technical improvement positively screams
    out for some coaching.  Like any big main, he needs to be taught to
    keep his center of gravity under better control.  Flailing around 
    like a goose flapping his wings don't cut it.  He has no natural moves
    and therefore must be taught them.  Question, of all these big men 
    supposedly in the NBA cuz a 'Snuffy's genius, were any a them white
    guys?
    
    Big10 Tom

    Joe Wolf
    Mitch Kupchak
    Tommy LeGarde
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    The logical mind would have to say it's much more meaningful to judge a
>    coach based on the delta between when a player entered school and when he
>    left.  Toward this end I'd offer 2nd tier HS talents Rick Fox
>    and Pete Chilcutt as evidence of Dean's tutelage.

And where does that leave King "1st tier" Rice?

Actually, one of the culprits in the hype has to be the Baby Blue
Propoganda Machine, who continue to write about the greatest recruiting
class in the history of college basketball. And for those who notice this
type of thing, they'll still be ranting and raving about Dean after he
fails to win *IT* with this gang.

TTom

    Fine.  Throw in King Rice.  He's having an excellent senior year and
    has progressed drastically since his freshman year.
    
    (BTW, the delta I'm talking about is how good the player *really* is
     when he enters college, not how long his press clippings are.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >- The referee's gutless inability to then call Perry for carrying the
    >  ball a la Barry Sanders atop his shoulder for two full steps on his way 
    >  to the slam-jam.
    
    I don't think guts had anything to do with it.  The ref called the foul
    on Chaney before Perry took his steps.  He never went in for the
    slam-jam, but stepped to the line and sank the crucial two freebies.
    
    Chaney was rightfully disgusted with himself.  He has no business
    exposing the ball like that.
    
    With all the strength the Hoosiers have at guard, particularly
    Reynolds, I'm surprised Knight didn't pressure the ball a lot more once
    OSU lost their point man.  Jackson was dog tired at the end of the
    game, and with more pressure this could have made a difference.
    
    Speaking of their lack of a big man, what happened to top 50 recruit
    Lawson?  Hasn't Knight developed the kid in two years, and given him
    those famous "extra points" on defense?
    
    JJ locked up big 10 player of the year yesterday, didn't he.  At the
    end of regulation, I was surprised to see him step into the back court
    with 10 seconds left to receive the inbounds pass.  Turned out to be
    excellent strategy considering the Hoosiers almost never picked him up.
    
    Dan

    � Everybody knows that it's tougher for big men to adjust to the
    � college game than the little guys.  
 
 Oh, really ???
 
 Lew Alcindor's freshmen team at UCLA beat the defending NCAA champion
 varsity squad in a preseason scrimmage.   Patrick Ewing led the Georgetown
 Hoyas into the NCAA final his freshman year where they lost to your team
 who, by the way, had stud sophomore Sam Perkins at center.  Akeem Olajuwon
 had barely even played the sport and Houston made three straight trips to
 the Final Four.   Shaquille O'Neal had scouts panting last year and he's
 got them babbling even more this year.
 
 Another Soup Scud excuse-theory shot down in flames.  Lemme help you with
 your theory ...
 
 � Everybody knows that it's tougher for *MEDIOCRE* big men to adjust to
 � the college game than the little guys, especially when given *MEDIOCRE*
 � tutelage.
 
 You're welcome.
 
 Bob Hunt

>    Joe Wolf
>    Mitch Kupchak
>    Tommy LeGarde

Eric Montross --- "The Tom LeGarde of the 90's"  --- has a nice ring to it.

>But I do find it funny that you'd
>    offer this comparison after Damon's best game (by far). 

Wait a sec... weren't you the one who posted Montross' big 9 point game as
compared to Grant Hill and Rodney Rogers 4 and 9 point games as some sort
of indicator of Eric's progress?   Didn't you just do that today???

> If he'd had
> his usual 8 points or so would you be so forthcoming? [no]

Wrong again... Damon's averaging 12.? right now and is probably averaging close
to 16-18 in the Big 10 games.   He's led the team in scoring a couple times in
the past few weeks, scoring 21 and 19.   After a slow start, Knight has seen
the on-court skills are too  good to leave on the bench.  The playing time
Bailey gets just brings him along faster.   Tell me the Montross would not be
better off  playing 30 minutes a game in the Big 10...  And he wouldn't be 
an afterthought on the offensive end like he is now.   

    >Speaking of their lack of their lack of a big man, what happened to
    >top 50 recruit Lawson?
    
    I don't remember Lawson ever having been highly ranked.  He in fact
    was by a wide margin the lowest ranked of his recruiting class, wasn't
    he?  From the first I heard of Chris Lawson he was described as a 
    "project" who looked like a career reserve.  He's very slow, has short
    arms and small hands, doesn't jump well, but has a nice shooting touch
    for those rare moments when he does manage to successfully receive the
    ball in the middle.
    
    But, to answer: He's been beat out by Matt Nover, another project who
    was originally slated as a substitute forward.
    
    >The ref called the foul on Chaney before Perry took his steps.
    
    The ref called the foul for a reach-around from behind about 20 feet
    from the hoop after Cheaney'd caught up with Carter several steps after
    the obvious travel.
    
    Big10 Tom

>>But I do find it funny that you'd
>>    offer this comparison after Damon's best game (by far). 
>
>Wait a sec... weren't you the one who posted Montross' big 9 point game as
>compared to Grant Hill and Rodney Rogers 4 and 9 point games as some sort
>of indicator of Eric's progress?   Didn't you just do that today???
    
    Ewwwwww, good one there, Doug.  I can't wait to see what kind of 
    "Yes, but..." hypocritical response that one's gonna get!
    
    	--dan'l
    

>I can't wait to see what kind of 
>    "Yes, but..." hypocritical response that one's gonna get!

Oh, I got a response.   Sort of a "waving the white flag" response.  But
Digital policy prevents me from posting personal mail without the author's
permission.  Can I Chris?  Chris-er-ino?  Chris-Man?  Christo of Knorropolis?
Chrismeister?  

 Say no more, Doug.   The picture is loud and clear.
    
 Besides, I'm sure you wouldn't deceive us.   After all, if it looks like a
 surrender, acts like a surrender, and sounds like a surrender, then it
 must be a surrender.
 
 Nuf said.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Chris can always revert to his "Blame it on the media" arguement - that
    always works.  Why, he even kinda worked in to his .201.
    
    The FBI's anti-organized crime unit could use Chris, that's fer sure.
    Just plop him down anywhere and let him point out hired guns.  HE sure
    seems to know a lot about them.  Heck, he even *knows* what Gaze, Locur
    and the Dove were *really* thinking.  He's simply amazing.  The real
    fack in those cases are that they are from the Big East and are
    foreign.  That's the only reasons there are.  But hey, I'd rather have
    a women-beater on MY team, and praise the guy, then have a *gasp*
    foreigner who might be *gasp* a hired gun.  Perhaps if those three had
    punched a few women around, they'd be more accepted.  
    
    JD

Looks like we need to see Knorr's unconditional withdrawl list of
conditions and linkages...

TTom

    Great game yesterday between IU ansd OSU.  Made even better by having
    the wife wif me.  
    
    Wife  "Now what game are you watching..."
    
    ME   :Ohio State and Indiana - 2 of the top teams in the country.  
    
    Wife:  Why's that one team look so slow and short?
    
    Me:  Oh, that's Indiana, their players are alwasy slow and short, but 
    all of them are playing out of position.
    
    Wife:  They don't look like ball players, sure hope they study...
    
    ME:  Yep, they all study, in fact, the slowest and shortest and most of
    position guys out there are all graduate students.
    
    Wife:  Really?  Do they still get scholarships?  Which one is there
    coach?
    
    Me:  Scholarships?  Surely you jest, theyse guys play hoops just to be
    near the master, Bob Knight (point Bob out).
    
    WIfe:  Geeez, he's got a pot stomach - the other coach looks better.
    I still can't believe they are playing so close - they must be playing
    their hearts out.
    
    Me:  Yep, overachieving to the max.  After the game, they all do
    volunteer work around town, and then study all night.
    
    Wife(at end of game):  Too bad they lost - but for a bunch of slow,
    short, out of position, volunteering grad students - they sure do play
    well.  If only they could get a big man...
    
    JD

HAH!

I just let out a whoop.... which I tried to strangle in mid whoop... and
that guy's looking over the cube at me again.

Mike JN

    Actually I commend Mr. Ross for some fine logical thinking.  I even
    went so far as to send him some congratulatory remarks via e-mail.
    
    The ultimate issue at hand is Playing Time.  Eric's not getting as much
    as he would've had he gone to IU, Michigan, or just about any other
    school north of LSU.  I certainly can't blame Dean for this.  Chilcutt
    is playing ahead of him and is having a terrific season.  Montross'
    time will come, I'm confident of that.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Classic, JD, absolutely classic.... I'm still laughing.....:-)
    
    Only wish my future wife had such amazing perception skills when it
    comes to Basketball....:-)
    
    Of course it isn't as funny as watching ACChris try to get up from 
    every thundering blow that he suffers in this notesfile.  
    
    Hey ACChris, a couple of things....
    
    	1:  Montross has been a HUGE disappointment this year...
    	2:  Dean can't develop a big man unless he is an incredible
    	    talent coming out of school.  Remember the old-adage,
    	    you can't coach size(the NBA loves those wide-bodies).
    	    Name one big-man that Dean developed that was not a
    	    highly rated HS All-American.
        3:  Henrik Rodl and Kenny Harris were both higher rated recruits 
    	    than Lawson was...
    	    Rodl was being hailed as the next Detlef Schrempf and Harris
    	    was supposed to take over for King Rice.  What happened?

>    	    Rodl was being hailed as the next Detlef Schrempf and Harris
>    	    was supposed to take over for King Rice.  What happened?

Rodl became a hired gun at Chapel Hill and Harris is still looking for
some girl to beat up. In typcial Dean fashion, Rice will teach Harris to
congratulate the girl.

TTom

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-18-91)  NCAA
Date: 18 Feb 91 22:04:57 GMT
 
Saturday:
 
#32 MICHIGAN STATE 62, #38 Illinois 58:  The Spartans held on as
	Illinois sliced an 8-point deficit to just 3 in the final minutes.
	The Spartans had leads of up to 9 points in the second half, and as
	little as nothing, but regained the 8-point lead in the final four
	minutes, and needed some free throws down the stretch to salt it
	away.  The first half was very closely contested, and after a very
	hot start by both teams, it stagnated into a 26-26 deadlock at the
	break.  Illinois came out cold in the second half, and Deon Thomas
	sprained an ankle which cost him some second half playing time.  MSU
	built a 38-29 lead before the Illini came back to tie the game at
	45-all and 47-all.  But, State built the winning 59-51 lead, and
	weathered a trey and another nice shot which cut the score down
	to 59-56.  Andy Pennick made some big free throws late.  Steve Smith
	scored 24 points, but he's still off of "his" game.  After making 42
	straight free throws earlier this year, he was just 7 of 13 in this
	game, and only 8 of 19 from the field.  Andy Kaufmann had 21 for the
	Illini.  A friend of mine Saturday night said "the refs stole the
	game from us".  I guess there were lots of bad calls in this game,
	and Lou got a marginal T, but the refs were probably gracious by not
	giving him a second T late when he probably deserved one.  15,138 at
	Breslin...
 
#48 PURDUE 89, #79 Minnesota 82:  Purdue almost blew a 13-point lead
	in the final 3 minutes, but Chuckie White made sure the five-game
	losing skid ended.  Up 78-65 with only 3:20 left, the Gophers went
	on a shooting tear and got within 79-76 with almost a minute left.
	But, some free throws and a White dunk off of a steal won it.
	Again, the Gophers were terribly outscored from the foul line, this
	time 39 to 16 (that's not the worst this year, even!).  But, they
	foul ALOT.  It didn't help them in this game that they got down by
	as much as 71-57 in the final five minutes, and 78-65 as I
	mentioned.  The strategy became one of fouling, as Purdue has not
	distinguished itself at the stripe this season.  But, when Chuckie
	White can nail 16 of 21, the gods are on your side.  Minnesota's
	11-1 run until the :55.6 mark, cutting the lead to 79-76, was a thing
	of beauty.  Several of the shots made were of the "circus" variety,
	and a couple of Purdue throwaways in the backcourt helped things
	along.  This game was like all the others, though.  Minnesota led
	most of the game's first 10 minutes, then Purdue got hot and built a
	five point lead until Rob Metcalf, who scored 16 points, drained a
	three at the halftime horn, to cut the Purdue lead to 36-34.  Purdue
	then struggled a bit out of the second half gate, but got hot
	again, and built the aforementioned 14-point lead before wilting.
	But, this lead was just too much for Minnesota to overcome.  Jimmy
	Oliver led Purdue with 30, though he vanished in the game's final
	minutes.  White had a well-deserved 16 points.  Walter Bond had 15
	and Arriel McDonald 13 for the Gophers.  14,123 on hand at Mackey...
 
#52 Michigan 64, #223 NORTHWESTERN 58:  The Wolverines held off the
	pesky Wildcats' bid to finally win a conference game.  Michigan
	trailed by 5 at halftime, 30-25, and the NU lead got as large as 7
	in the second half.  But, Demetrius Calip put the Wolverines ahead
	for good midway through the second half with a three pointer, as he
	scored 17 points.  The loss, NU's 14th straight, helped give them
	their longest skid since 1955-56.  Kevin Rankin, who scored 19
	against Michigan State the other night, was scoreless.  Charles
	Howell and Pat Baldwin each had 16, though.  7,278 at Welsh-Ryan...
 
#49 Wisconsin 56, #47 IOWA 55:  The Badgers did blow a 13-point lead
	in the final 5 minutes, but a Brian Good trey at the horn gave back
	the victory.  The win was Wisconsin's 5th straight in this series.
	The Badgers led 49-36 with just 5:47 left (that's right, just
	36 points for Iowa in 34 minutes!), before the Hawkeyes took the
	lead, incredibly, in the final seconds.  Iowa finally took that lead
	with just 6 ticks left when Kevin Smith hit a trey.  But, on the
	ensuing inbound pass from John Ellenson, muscle-man Patrick Tompkins
	dribbled the ball just past halfcourt and fed Good, who took a step
	back behind the line and won the game.  The halftime score was Iowa
	18, Wisconsin 17, which is hard to believe in this era.  But,
	Wisconsin got Iowa playing it's pace, and it eventually worked out
	for them.  The Hawkeyes were a pathetic 22 of 72 from the floor
	(30.5%), taking 25 more fielders and just one less FT than
	Wisconsin.  The two teams combined to shoot just 6 of 31 from
	three-point land, as the Badgers won this one ugly.  Tompkins led
	the Badgers with 17 points, and Smith had 13 for Dr. Tom.  15,500 at
	Carver-Hawkeye...
 
 
Sunday:
 
	#4  OHIO STATE 97, #2 Indiana 95 (2OT):  One of the best games you
	will ever see, but I couldn't!  I did get to listen to the two
	overtimes, though, and St. John Arena has never been louder.  Jim
	Jackson hit the tying shot to send the game to overtime, and Treg
	Lee's baseline J won it with :02 left in the second overtime.  The
	Buckeyes had to erase a five-point deficit at the end of regulation
	to force the first OT, and a four-point deficit at the end of the
	first extra-session to force the second, in what was a very
	frustrating loss for Indiana.  The Buckeyes also overcame the loss
	of point guard Mark Baker in the first half, as he injured an ankle
	and will miss the next week or so (definitely will miss the game at
	Illinois Wednesday).  Damon Bailey was tremendous in the OT's,
	scoring 17 of his career-high 32 points.  Jim Jackson was great as
	well, scoring 30 and snaring 11 boards.  Didn't you think OSU was
	dead just before the end of regulation?  IU was up 77-74, in
	possession of the ball, in the hands of Calbert Cheaney, no less?
	And he had the ball stripped.  OSU hit two FTs, and then after IU
	made just one FT at the other end, Jackson tied the game with one
	tick left.  Wow!  And Bailey had missed a couple of FTs down the
	stretch.  The Hoosiers then missed a really good chance to
	win the game at the end of the first OT, as OSU had tied it with :45
	left.  But, the Hoosiers just couldn't get it to drop.  Jamie
	Skelton hit some huge shots for the Buckeyes in the second
	overtime, as he saw extra duty due to Baker's injury.  Indiana
	missed a tough trey at the very final horn from Pat Graham.  Knight
	said, "Obviously, it's a game we really would like to have won.  We
	had our chances, and we can't ask for a hell of alot more than that".
	13,276 in Columbus...
 
[....]

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-19-91)  NCAA
Date: 19 Feb 91 16:49:09 GMT
 
Monday's Result:
 
#48 Purdue 83, #52 MICHIGAN 77 (2OT):  These two teams decided that
	what Indiana and Ohio State did Sunday was fun, so they did it, too.
	This was a pretty entertaining game for two second-division teams.
	Michigan led all of the first half, or nearly all of it, but
	couldn't shake Purdue, taking a 38-35 lead into the lockerroom.
	Both teams shot well, especially Purdue, which hit at 60%.  The
	second half was a completely different story, though, as both teams
	were cold.  However, Purdue, over the first 9:30 of the second half,
	outscored Michigan 14-4, taking a 49-42 lead.  But, Michigan hit a
	three and caught fire, going on a 12-1 run of it's own and building
	a 54-50 lead.  They had several chances to up that lead as Purdue
	continued to struggle (going nearly 10 minutes between field goals),
	but failed, and Purdue managed to regain a 59-57 lead inside of the
	final minute.  The Boilers even had possession of the ball with that
	lead, and 31.9 seconds remaining, when Matt Painter couldn't make an
	inbounds pass in 5 seconds, turning the ball over.  After running
	the clock, Demetrius Calip, who scored at least 32 points in the
	game, hit a short J with 1.9 seconds left to tie the game.  A
	desparation heave from Painter to Craig Riley under the basket nearly
	resulted in a Purdue win, but he was too far behind the backboard.
	Purdue led nearly all of the first overtime, and still had a 69-66
	lead with 20 seconds to go.  But, Kirk Taylor hit about a 23-foot
	trey with 12 seconds left to tie the game again, and Purdue never
	managed to get a shot off before the horn sounded.  So, tied again
	at 69, Michigan raced out quickly in the second OT and seemingly put
	the game away.  Calip started out with a three, then after a Riley
	free throw cut the score to 72-70, the Wolverines scored five more,
	three on a trey and two more on a Sam Mitchell slam.  Down 77-70,
	with just over 3 minutes left, the game changed again for good.
	Matt Painter hit a three to cut the deficit to 77-73, then Michigan
	began a series of terrible offensive possessions in which it took
	either hurried or ill-advised shots.  With Painter's three, Purdue
	scored the final 13 points of this game, mostly on Chuckie White,
	Riley, and Jimmy Oliver fielders and ensuing FTs.  Dick Vitale
	became quite critical of Steve Fisher's not having his team run the
	clock after getting the big lead.  It was a shocking turnaround in
	the second overtime, that's for sure.  James Voskuil had a big game
	for Michigan, scoring 16, while Craig Riley again outplayed his
	namesake, Eric Riley, getting a career-high (23, maybe?).  Oliver
	and White also were big scorers for Purdue, before alot of empty
	seats up at Crisler Arena...
  
Wednesday:
 
	#4   Ohio State at #38 ILLINOIS            7:00 pm CST
 
	(no major TV, but if you want to listen to it, you can catch the OSU
	network on WWWE out of Cleveland (around 1100 am?), or the Illinois
	network on WLS, 890 am, Chicago.  Both are 50,000 watt stations...
	As someone pointed out yesterday, Mark Baker has a badly turned
	ankle and most likely will not play.  Also, Deon Thomas turned his
	ankle at Michigan State Saturday and was hobbling around at practice
	yesterday, so his status for Wednesday is still undetermined...)
  
Thursday:
 
	#47  Iowa at #2 INDIANA                    7:00 pm
	#49  Wisconsin at #52 MICHIGAN             7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#48  Purdue at #32 MICHIGAN STATE          Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#79  Minnesota at #4 OHIO STATE            2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#38  Illinois at #47 IOWA                  7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#223 Northwestern at #49 WISCONSIN         1:00 pm
	#52  Michigan at #2 INDIANA                3:00 pm  ABC
 
Next Monday:
 
	#32  Michigan State at #79 MINNESOTA       8:30 pm  ESPN
 
RECORDS:
                New
Sagarin   AP    CNN   School          Overall  Big Ten
-------   --    ---   ------          -------  -------
 
    4      2     2    Ohio State        22-1    12-1
    2      4     4    Indiana           22-3    10-2
   38     26T   35    Illinois          18-7     8-4
   32     42    40    Michigan State    15-8     8-5
   49     NR    45    Wisconsin         12-10    6-6
   47     44    50    Iowa              17-8     6-7
   48     NR    NR    Purdue            13-10    5-8
   52     NR    NR    Michigan          12-11    5-8
   79     NR    NR    Minnesota         10-12    3-9
  223     NR    NR    Northwestern       5-18    0-13

Iowa upset Indiana, 80-79 in OT. The Hoosiers missed a series of free
throws that could have won the game in regulation.

TTom

    	I guess Bob's had the guys hitting the books instead of practicin'
    their free throws.
    
    				/Don

    Extract from Iowa @ IU box score:
    
    Bailey 0-3,0-2 0
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Bailey is better than Montross.
 
 Bob Hunt

You're right, Chris. Montross is much more a stiff than Bailey.

TTom

    Wail, as sad as this turn a events is at least I won't have to put
    up with you people sniffing and sneering about how I'm a Ross-style
    poor-mouther... given that the season is progressing very nicely 
    along its way towards fulfilling my bold preseason prognostication.
    Here's the scoop:
    
    - Hoosiers cain't go on winning despite being consistently outrebounded
      by 10-15 boards and blocking/changing almost no shots inside.
    
    - Hoosiers' depth and talent is partly myth: this is a team of point
      guards, who are missing a center, a widebody forward reserve, and
      a_outside shooting threat.
    
    - Hoosiers' weaknesses were masked by unusually easy preconference and
      conference schedule cuz a_a confluence a_events with opponents' programs.
    
    - Hoosiers are a dangerous team but a limited one who waver when up against
      your modern sytle quick/strong widebody front lines - they'll croak in 
      the tourney against a much lower ranked team like LSU.  A team with the
      physical limitations of this one could only be truly dangerous when they
      a senior (not sophomore) dominated.
    
    - Damon Bailey had his career game after his opposite exited the Ohio State
      game with a_ankle injury.  He's gonna have his problems when up against
      big-time quickness like he saw with last night's Iowa frosh.
    
    Big10 Tom

Poor little Indiana struggled and barely got passsed the far superior
Michigan Wolverines, 112-79. 

TTom

 Saw in today's paper that Acie Earl, Iowa's stud widebody, got picked up
 for assaulting a female student.
 
 What gives, Big Tenners ???   You got your hoop riots and now your woman
 beaters ... you guys been taking notes from the ACC or what ???
 
 Bob Hunt

    re 1
    
    If you're looking for hoops riots, I refer you to the Big East, the
    Big8, and the SEC.  We have no hoops riots in the Big10.
    
    As for the woman-beating allegation, remember: "Innocent until proven
    guilty."  And even then, if it does turn out that Acie is a Univeristy
    of North Carolina at Chapel Hell-scumbag, the matter of face will STILL
    hinge on whether Dr. Malpractice tacitly endorses gal-abuse as did 
    Reverend Underachievement.
    
    re 2
    
    Indiana's perfect opponnet, another team with no inside game. Steal
    got outrebounded by 5, but that's much less than is usual against 
    the good squads.  Indiana blew out the Wolverines cuz they're more
    talented, if just as stunted.  G-g-give it u-up, TTom, you cain't 
    dispute what your main main said yesterday:
    
    	I don't see Indiana going that far.  They lack the big man,
    	the inside game, to be able to make a run for it in the tourney.
    
    						Jim Vulvano, 2/29/91
    						
    
  
    Big10 Tom  
  

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-21-91)  NCAA
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 1991 16:14:50 GMT
 
Wednesday's Result:
 
#5  Ohio State 73, #36 ILLINOIS 64:  I found out an hour before
	tipoff that I was going to the game!  The game had its moments, but
	really wasn't very well played by either team.  Illinois missed
	countless "bunnies", and Ohio State couldn't hit a jumper to save
	them.  The Buckeyes were definitely "off" last night, as their
	offensive execution was terrible, mostly relying on one-on-one
	moves to get shots.  Because they could not hit a J, Illinois just
	sat back in a 2-3 zone most of the game, and watched the Buckeyes
	pass the ball around the perimeter.  Neither Mark Baker nor Deon
	Thomas played, so the effects were probably neutralized.  Ohio
	State led most of the game's first 10 minutes, but Illinois had
	one of its best streaks of the game in taking a 26-22 lead.  But,
	over the final 7 minutes of the half, the Buckeyes outscored them
	17-6, including a 10-0 run, and took a 39-32 lead to the lockerroom.
	The second half was much sloppier.  Ohio State took an early 44-35
	lead, but Illinois answered with 8 straight points to close to
	44-43.  The Buckeyes were still only up one at 50-49 with 8:35 left
	and shortly thereafter by 54-53, but Chris Jent finally hit a
	Buckeye trey to lead 57-53, and Treg Lee, who scored 14 points, made
	a huge rebound and basket for a 66-60 lead.  Andy Kaufmann picked up
	a T in the final 20 seconds when saying the magic words after a
	bizarre charge as he attempted a three-pointer.  Ohio State
	outscored Illinois by 13 points from the stripe, though the Buckeyes
	committed more second half fouls until the final couple of minutes
	when the Illini fouled on purpose.  Both teams shot 43% from the
	field.  Andy Kpedi probably had his finest game in an Illini
	uniform, picking up the slack for Thomas.  Alex Davis had a nice
	game as he seemed to fill in most for Baker.  Jim Jackson had a bad
	night.  Illinois blew countless second half opportunities to tie the
	game.  They just never could get over the hump, as Ohio State always
	answered with a clutch rebound or hoop.  Just over 13,000 at the
	Assembly Hall, mostly non-believers of an upset at that...

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-22-91)  NCAA
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 1991 18:24:02 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#50 Iowa 79, #3 INDIANA 78 (OT):  The Hoosiers inability to hit a
	free throw at the end of regulation (they missed six straight), and
	the blowing of a 16-point second half lead doomed them last night,
	as James Moses tipped in a missed Chris Street tip of an Acie Earl
	bomb, at the first overtime horn.  Iowa enjoyed a huge rebounding
	advantage, and cleaned up at the stripe, as the Hoosiers ended up
	missing 15 of 34 attempts.  This is truly an amazing result, as IU
	had beaten the Hawkeyes by 11 at Iowa City earlier, and makes it
	much easier for Ohio State to win the Big Ten.  The loss also may
	have made the arguments about Indiana possibly being a #1 seed in
	the tournament moot.  This was Iowa's first win at Assembly Hall
	since 1985.  The Hawkeyes jumped out to a 5-0 lead as IU couldn't
	find the mark.  Once the Hoosiers got rolling, they led most of the
	first half, and took a 35-32 lead to the lockerroom.  They blitzed
	Iowa during the first six minutes of the second half, going on a
	15-2 run fueled by 9 points by Calbert Cheaney.  Down 50-34, it
	looked bleak for Iowa, but they scored 6 straight and gradually
	whittled the lead down to 65-64 with only 4:25 left.  Val Barnes,
	who with Acie Earl scored 19 points, hit a trey, and James Moses
	followed with another hoop to give Iowa a 69-65 late.  But, in the
	final two minutes, the Hoosier defense stepped it up a bit, as the
	Hawkeyes had trouble getting off shots and even travelled.  Hoops by
	Lyndon Jones and Chris Reynolds tied the game, but the missed free
	throws by people like Cheaney, Reynolds, and Matt Nover prevented
	the Hoosiers from winning in regulation.  IU did start finding the
	mark in OT, taking a 77-74 lead with two minutes to go on the
	strength of five FTs from Nover and Cheaney.  But, Hawkeye
	sharpshooter Troy Skinner drew two fouls, and nailed all four
	freebies (he's almost a 90% shooter).  With Iowa up one at 78-77,
	Cheaney was fouled on a drive and sank two more FTs to put the
	Hoosiers back up with 30+ seconds left.  Iowa held the ball until
	only 8 seconds were left, and called a timeout (I thought they
	waited too long).  A difficult inbounds pass was caught by Earl, who
	dribbled a couple of times and launched a J from well beyond his
	range.  It clanged off the rim right to Chris Street, who missed a
	bunny putback.  But, James Moses was right there to tip in the
	botched Street attempt, and the horn sounded to much jubilation on
	the Iowa bench.  Iowa had a ten board advantage over IU at the end
	of regulation, and the Hawks dominated the glass on that last
	sequence.  Cheaney scored 26 for IU, while Lyndon Jones tied a
	career-high with 21.  Strangely, Damon Bailey was scoreless and got
	in alot of pine-time last night.  Over 17,000 very disappointed fans
	in Bloomington...
 
#62 MICHIGAN 65, #43 Wisconsin 62:  The Badgers blew a big chance to
	take a positive step towards making the tournament, as Michael
	Talley scored Michigan's last six points in sparking them to victory
	in the game's final minute.  Wisconsin had the ball and a 60-59 lead
	with 1:12 left (erasing an 11-point second half Michigan lead), when
	John Ellenson was called for a 5-second violation.  Talley then hit
	a jumper with :54 left to give Michigan a 61-60 lead it would not
	relinquish.  Talley hit four FTs thereafter to clinch it.  Wisconsin
	has not won at Crisler since 1982, and even that win was later
	forfeited.  The previous win there was in 1979.  Demetrius Calip had
	16 points for Michigan and Talley had 14.  Ellenson, Willie Simms
	and Patrick Tompkins each had 15 for Wisconsin...

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-25-91)  NCAA
Date: 25 Feb 91 20:49:31 GMT
 
Clem Haskins was publically reprimanded by Gopher AD Rick Bay for his
outburst to the media following Minnesota's heartbreaking loss at Ohio
State, while Iowa center Acie Earl was charged with simple assault
Sunday after an altercation with an ex-girl friend following the loss to
Illinois.  On the brighter side, Gene Keady and Jud Heathcote, two
beloved coaches in Illinois, looked like old pals after MSU's win in
East Lansing, and Lou Henson and Tom Davis shook hands before the game
Saturday as the hatchet was buried just a little...
  
Saturday's Results:
 
#45 MICHIGAN STATE 75, #42 Purdue 58:  The Spartans played a great
	second half and blew open what had been a close game.  Steve Smith
	and mates got off to a quick start, jumping out to a 14-7 lead, but
	then Purdue put on some defense and held the Spartans in check the
	rest of the first half, taking a 30-28 lead to the break.  However,
	Purdue's offensive woes rejoined them in the second half, and State
	quickly seized control of the game.  Dewayne Stephens, who often
	doesn't do much but has been a royal pain in Purdue's ass the past
	two seasons, led the second half charge with 14 points.  Stephens
	said, "The coach told me to shoot the ball more today, so I did and I
	hit the shots.  Once I started scoring, the guys kept getting me the
	ball."  MSU began the second half with something like a 17-6 run and
	just kept it going, though Jud Heathcote said, "The score makes this
	look like an easy win, but it wasn't.  We put a lot of defensive
	pressure on the ball in the second half, we dove for loose balls,
	and we scored on the break."  Purdue had a chance to do some damage
	after Mike Peplowski picked up his fourth foul and the lead was
	still only around 5 points.  But, Craig Riley had a lousy game
	inside for Purdue, and that was it.  Jimmy Oliver was only 6 of 18
	from the floor, though he led Purdue in scoring with 18 points.  The
	difference in this game was shooting, as the Spartans made 8 more
	field goals than Purdue in one less attempt.  MSU had a lot to do
	with Purdue's shot selection, however.  Steve Smith had 24 for
	MSU before 15,138 at the Breslin Center...
 
#5  OHIO STATE 63, #87 Minnesota 62:  Clem Haskins cried foul, but
	to no avail, as the Gophers played a sensational first half and
	almost pulled the unthinkable.  Minnesota beat the Buckeyes at their
	own game in that first half, scoring at least ten buckets on fast
	breaks after Buckeye missfires or when the press was broken.  The
	Gophers led 40-33 at the break, and still led 58-51 with just 6:07
	left when Clem Haskins was given a T.  It was prompted when Jim
	Jackson stole the ball and went out of bounds with it.  Official
	Steve Welmer mistakenly gave possession to OSU, and Haskins charged
	the floor (to midcourt) and was given the T by Ted Hilliary before
	official London Bradley could correct Welmer's call (typical B.S.
	officiating in this conference).  In rare postgame words from an
	official, Hilliary said, "London had it the other way.  He was
	coming in to correct the call.  It was going to be Minnesota's ball.
	Clem was out of his coach's box and, I felt, in an unsportsmanlike
	fashion."  Jackson hit the two T free throws, which began an 8-0
	Buckeye run to make the score 59-58 with 3:13 left.  The Gophers
	regained their composure and scored the next four points, all by
	Randy Carter, a good-looking freshman, to lead 62-59 with 1:44 to
	go.  Jackson hit another shot to cut the gap to 62-61 with 1:21
	left.  Ariel McDonald was then hit with a five-second violation with
	:46 to go, and Jamaal Brown drained a 15-footer with :32 left to
	make the score 63-62.  McDonald later drove the basket with :07 left
	and shot over Jackson.  The ball missed it's target and was tipped
	towards the out-of-bounds.  But, Chris Jent got to it and heaved it
	into the backcourt and out-of-bounds, leaving just one second left.
	Bob Martin's 15-footer clanged off the back of the rim to end the
	game.  Haskins said, "We really played well and we really won the
	game.  We beat the number two team in basketball and, unfortunately,
	the headlines tomorrow are going to show that we lost the game.  But
	the Gophers won the game by one point to seven points if we don't
	get the big-time screws put to us at the end.  Any time you play
	like we did tonight and don't come up with a win, it's really,
	really tough in coaching.  Because you do everything and then you
	get out there and they call a game like that.  And you get three
	jackasses and it really, really hurts your players.  Those three
	guys today were a disgrace to basketball in the Big Ten."  On Sunday
	he said, "I accept and understand the public reprimand.  But I'm
	still disappointed, not for Clem Haskins, but for this group of
	young men who played so hard and so well yesterday."  I think Clem
	learned his lessons well from Gene Keady when they were at Western
	Kentucky together...  Jackson scored 26 points while Kevin Lynch had
	14 for the Gophers.  13,276 in Columbus...
 
#36 Illinois 79, #50 IOWA 74:  Another strange home game for the
	Hawkeyes, but of the more emotional variety due to the happenings of
	the past year or so.  It's remarkable that this team could sandwich
	the Indiana road win with awful home offensive performances (and
	losses) to Wisconsin and Illinois.  Against Wisconsin a week ago
	Saturday, the Hawkeyes could only muster 35 points in the game's
	first 34 minutes, then lost on a trey at the horn 56-55.  This time,
	after getting out to an early 17-10 lead, Iowa went into it's funk,
	getting outscored 15-4 over the next 10 minutes to trail 25-21.
	Tehy managed to get the score knotted at 29 at intermission.
	Illinois, on the heels of 56% shooting, then took the game over,
	running out to leads of 38-33, 44-38 and 61-45, the latter with just
	over seven minutes to go.  The lead was still 71-56 Illinois with
	4:48 left when the Hawkeyes began to go wild from three-point land,
	led by James Moses, who scored 20 in the final minutes.  He pulled
	Iowa to within 76-74 with :35 to go.  By this time, the Illini were
	helping the Iowa cause by bricking free throw attempts and failing
	to guard the perimeter, though a couple of Moses' bombs would have
	made Larry Bird proud.  Rennie Clemons hit a free throw with :18
	left to give Illinois a 77-74 lead, as Moses fouled out.  He missed
	the second attempt, though, and Brooks Taylor rebounded and was
	fouled.  He promptly bricked both attempts, and Iowa had a chance to
	tie.  But, Clemons stripped Val Barnes of the ball, and Larry Smith
	dropped two freebies with :05 left to end the scoring.  Iowa, which
	had outrebounded Indiana by 10 the other night, was licked on the
	boards 41-26.  Andy Kaufmann scored 32 points as he hit 9 of 10
	shots in the second half, one a baseline bankshot which defied
	physics.  Moses scored 30, which may have been a career-high, and
	Acie Earl had 21.  15,500 loud but disappointed fans at Carver-
	Hawkeye, whom Moses later praised "because the Illinois fans were
	very rude to us in Champaign...and the players really have no
	knowledge of that controversy", referring to the Deon Thomas/Bruce
	Pearl incident.  Iowa didn't arrive in Iowa City until 5:30 am on
	Friday after the IU win, as the team plane was forced down in Peoria
	due to mechanical problems.  That should have been an omen...
 
 
Sunday's Results:
 
#43 WISCONSIN 79, #216 Northwestern 76:  Once again, the Wildcats
	appeared to have victory in their grasp, only to see it again slip
	away before a surprised Wisconsin Fieldhouse crowd of 10,042.  You
	really have to hand it to Northwestern for fighting so hard late in
	this awful season.  The Wildcats expanded a 42-40 halftime lead to
	61-52 with just 11:53 to play.  Wisconsin then put on it's surge to
	gain a 68-65 lead.  The game then see-sawed until the Badgers went
	ahead to stay 76-74 with only :57 left on a Willie Simms hoop as the
	shot clock was expiring.  A foul on NU's Don Brotz with :25 left
	allowed Wisconsin to help seal the victory.  Bill Foster was
	critical of the officiating, saying, "I know what Clem Haskins felt.
	You can fill in the blanks."  Pat Tompkins led Wisconsin with 18
	points, while Charles Howell had 20 for NU...
 
#3  INDIANA 112, #62 Michigan 79:  Indiana decided to blow off the
	steam of two straight losses by routing the Wolverines yesterday.
	This was the highest scoring output of the season for IU in a win
	more reminiscent of those in January than lately.  The Michigan
	guards, who do the bulk of the scoring, got out of the blocks
	slowly, and IU was able to pull away from a 32-28 advantage to lead
	48-35 at the intermission.  The Hoosiers poured it on most of the
	second half, as even Pat Knight played.  Four Hoosiers made double
	figures in scoring, led by Calbert Cheaney's 30.  Demetrius Calip
	eventually scored 28 after I believe only having 4 points at
	halftime.  IU outscored the Wolverines by 21 from the stripe.
	Michigan did win the battle of the boards 40-35, before 16,285 in
	Bloomington... 
 
Tonight:
 
	#45  Michigan State at #87 MINNESOTA       8:30 pm CST  ESPN
 
RATINGS/RECORDS (old ratings):
 
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    5      2     2     2    Ohio State       14-1    24-1      24-1
    3      4     4     4    Indiana          11-3    23-4      23-4
   36     30    35    NR    Illinois          9-5    19-8      18-8
   45     37    40    NR    Michigan State    9-5    16-8      16-8
   43     NR    45    NR    Wisconsin         7-7    13-11     12-10
   50     NR    50    NR    Iowa              7-8    18-9      16-9
   62     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          6-9    13-12     13-12
   42     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            5-9    13-11     13-11
   87     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         3-10   10-13     10-13
  216     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-14    5-19      3-19

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (2-26-91)  NCAA
Date: 26 Feb 91 16:03:55 GMT
 
Monday's Result:
 
#45 Michigan State 76, #87 MINNESOTA 74:  The Spartans played great
	for about 30 minutes, then some terrible ballhandling and passing
	almost let a victory slip away.  Steve Smith was particularly sloppy
	down the stretch.  He appears to be developing a big-time attitude,
	I'm afraid.  The Spartans were ahead 62-46 when the Gophers began to
	chip away with some nice shooting (mostly not from Kevin Lynch,
	though he did have a couple).  It was 64-53, and before you knew it,
	the lead was down to three on a couple of occasions within the final
	couple of minutes.  Lynch hit a major league bomb at the final horn
	for the final margin of two, a banker, no less.  Nate Tubbs, from my
	high school, had a huge hand in the Gophers' late run, making a
	couple of treys and some other nice shots.  He's turning into a good
	player.  Mike Peplowski fouled out, as the Spartans lost both of
	their inside people to fouls down the stretch.  Kind of a sedate
	crowd at The Barn, as Minnesota must now win the rest of it's games
	in order to finish at .500.  This will not be easy, with road trips
	to Columbus and Bloomington left.  What's with Mark Montgomery's
	long passes against the press?  He either threw it over a teammates
	head out of bounds or into a Gophers hands.  Not a very good job by
	MSU down the stretch.  This kind of breakdown in the tournament will
	translate into a quick exit...
 
Thursday:
 
	#3   Indiana at #45 MICHIGAN STATE         6:00 pm ESPN (last one)
	#62  Michigan at #36 ILLINOIS              7:00 pm
	#216 Northwestern at #87 MINNESOTA         7:00 pm
	#43  Wisconsin at #42 PURDUE               7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#3   Indiana at #43 WISCONSIN              Noon    Big Ten/Raycom
	#36  Illinois at #216 NORTHWESTERN         2:00 pm Big Ten/Raycom
	#42  Purdue at #50 IOWA                    7:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#45  Michigan State at #5 OHIO STATE       1:00 pm ABC
	#87  Minnesota at #62 MICHIGAN             3:00 pm ABC
  
RATINGS/RECORDS:
 
         New    New
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    5      2     2     2    Ohio State       14-1    24-1      24-1
    3      5     5     4    Indiana          11-3    23-4      23-4
   45     35    ??    NR    Michigan State   10-5    17-8      17-8
   36     30    NR    NR    Illinois          9-5    19-8      18-8
   43     NR    NR    NR    Wisconsin         7-7    13-11     12-10
   50     37    ??    NR    Iowa              7-8    18-9      16-9
   62     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          6-9    13-12     13-12
   42     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            5-9    13-11     13-11
   87     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         3-11   10-14     10-14
  216     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-14    5-19      3-19

A major gripe.. If I were in charge of negotiating the Big 10's contract with
ESPN, I would give them the following ultimatum:

	Either we flip-flop every other week on who leads off on Big Monday,
	or else we'll take our games elsewhere.

It's ridiculous to have to watch the Big East games run over EVERY SINGLE 
WEEK past the 9:30 time slot.    Half the Big 10 teams are in the same
time zone as the Big East.

 Blame the big east refs Doug they're whistle happy. It was better when they
 only had 5 fouls to give the refs were a bit more forgiving...

 I saw a replay of the call and I'd say Clem had a right to bitch...

 mike

Yo Cap, better get over here!

Acie Earl, Iowa sophomore, has pleaded guilty to the assault of a
17-year-old girl. Acie remains on the team but apparently his punishment
is that he can't start. 

Tough stand there, Iowa. Much more severe than the famed King Rice event.
I guess King had a better lawyer: no assault charge and still starting.
It's easy to see the moral fiber of the Big10. Not.

TTom

    Ttom,
    
    Barking up the wrong tree here son.... Personally I don't give a rat's
    ass what happens at Iowa.  I'm a Indiana fan not an Iowa fan.  The King
    Rice affair raised my gander because of the hypocritical treatment that
    King Rice was given by Dean Smith and the upstanding Carolina program.
    
    It was embarrassing seeing Dean Smith bow to the pressure of winning by
    failing to properly discipline a convicted criminal.
    
    Acie Earl, BTW, is not starting.  The girl(an old-time friend) dropped
    the charges and pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor assault charge(from
    what I heard he just grabbed her arm in an arguement.)  That's a little
    different than choking a girl, resisting arrest, fighting with cops and
    punching a hole in a cell wall all the while being blasted out of his
    mind by alcohol or some other substance.
    
    I don't care what happens at Iowa, but from what I read it's not a 
    serious situation.
    
    Cap
    
    P.S.  Of course it's not even close to being as serious as shaving
    	  points on the behalf of some organized crime figure.  What 
    	  school was alledged to have done that?????  :-)

Acie, unlike the object of your focus King, was convicted of assault on a
girl. Very much like King, he received little or not punishment from the 
school or team. 

You're right, Cap, wrong tree. I mistook your previous notes as an
indication of your interest in this type of injustice. I understand now
that you merely have a hardon for Dean Smith and aren't interested in
anything like "hypocritical treatment", "failing to properly discipline"
and the like. It will help all of us interpret your future notes. 

TTom

    No TTom,
    
    Simple assault is a misdemeanor, no battery was involved which means no 
    physical harm was committed to the girl in question.  There was only
    a threat or presumed threat, stemming from an argument.(Acie Earl
    situation)
    
    Felonious Assault and battery is a felony in which physical harm was
    committed.  This is what happened in the King Rice affair.
    
    There is a huge difference between the two.  If Acie Earl had committed
    the latter and still remained on the team, I would remain the same.
    
    Anyone who is involved in a heated argument with another person runs
    the risk of being charged with simple assault.
    
    Get your facts straight before you go on an unwarranted attack.  As
    much as I like to rag on Dean Smith, the King Rice/Smith situation was
    completely wrong and an embarrassment to the university and college
    basketball and it would have been wrong at any school, Indiana
    included.  The Acie Earl situation is not even close to being the same
    situation.
    
    Before you go out trying to assume my motives in a situation, why don't
    you think before you try to analyze me personally?
    
    Better start using the ol' noggin before trying to compare to
    situations that are different as night and day....
    
    Cap
    

>Very much like King, he received little or not punishment from the 
>school or team. 

Acie got "little", King got "none".... unless we count those extra laps
he had to run after practice. :-)

>I understand now
>that you merely have a hardon for Dean Smith

Mine's bigger.

>    ... As
>    much as I like to rag on Dean Smith, 

Q.E.D.

TTom

    
    TTom,
    
    HA!  Your response reminded me a little of Saddam Hussein.  Get your
    butt kicked(in an argument) but try and extract a little quote and make 
    it into a tiny victory.
    
    Oh well, try again sometime, but this time do a little research so that
    you're not embarrassed by the actual facts.
    
    Cap :-)

Cap,

Let's do a quick review:

1. I baited you.

2. You stated the case that while King and Acie were both convicted of 
assault, 

>    ... The King
>    Rice affair raised my gander because of the hypocritical treatment that
>    King Rice was given by Dean Smith and the upstanding Carolina program.

I didn't - never, don't, won't - dispute either your description of your
reaction to the King Affair or your characterization of the King Affair. 

3. This is pure gravy!

>    ... Personally I don't give a rat's
>    ass what happens at Iowa.  

Go Big 10. ;-)

TTom

��                          -< ass, butt; what's next? >-


Private parts?

    TTom,
    
    You didn't bait me with the Acie Earl situation, you baited me with an
    underhanded personal stab.  King and Acie's(good poker hand) situation
    are on different ends of the spectrum and you looked foolish trying to 
    compare the two.
    
    I don't care if you want to rag on the Big10.  Nothing pleased me more
    than Illinois get caught with their hand in the cookie jar and would
    feel the same about any Big10 team or player that breaks the rules and
    is not justly punished.
    
    I just thought that with all the criminal-atheletes that have passed
    through NC State that you'd know the difference between Simple Assault
    and Assault and Battery. :-) (many smilies)
    
    Cap

Another BIG night in college hoop:

	Indiana at Michigan State   7:00  ESPN
and     Tar Heels at Georgia Tech   9:00  ESPN

Look for an easier-than-expected IU win {say, 84-72} as Bobby tunes up the 
team for the tournament.

Actually, Cap, I'm a fan of the Big 10. My sister went to Purdue and my
brother went to Northwestern. Lots of friends who went to some of the
others.

TTom

    HUGE game for the Hoosiers, they need to win the rest in order to 
    stay as overrated as possible so as to get the best seed and there-
    fore the weakest opponents... Michigan's recruiting class is shaping
    up as maybe the best ever... Apparently Poploski's knee is acting up
    again and that's why the poor play... MrT is going to Mad City for
    the second toughie of the week for the poor Hoosiers... Rumor has
    Gene Keady leaving Purdue for the UNLV job (one ugly coach for
    another)... If Yoder don't git his boys into the NCAAs he could be
    toast...  Clem Haskins' recruiting isn't shaping up as too good, he
    and Rick Bay aren't getting along, he may split Minnesota for a worse
    job... Dr. Tom Davis has been nominated by technical analysts for the
    much coveted Dean Smith Coaching Incompetence Cup (a spitoon of the
    type used by choking patients in dentist offices)...
    
    Big10 Tom

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-1-91)  NCAA
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1991 20:13:05 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#4  Indiana 62, #35 MICHIGAN STATE 56:  The Hoosiers got off to a
	great start, then had to fend off the Spartans in Steve Smith's
	final home game.  Fend off maybe isn't the right term.  IU only
	could make two of it's final 16 field goal attempts in this game (!)
	spanning the last 15:51, and still won!  That's because the Spartans
	could only make 10 of 30 the entire second half!  Yet, the Spartans
	still could have won this game.  Eric Anderson was only 5 of 13.
	Smith could only hit 9 of 22.  Matt Steigenga ripped the cords for
	17 first half points, but went scoreless in the second half.  Both
	coaches blamed poor officiating on their team's second half woes.
	"Three or four of those shots were Damon Bailey under the basket
	where he was fouled every time.  I thought it was Cubans cutting
	down banana stalks.", is how Bob Knight put it after the game.  Jud
	Heathcote added, "I know Steve Smith got butchered a couple of times
	on drives, and they (the officials) just looked at him.  I'm not
	questioning the officiating [right!].  But in a defensive game like
	this, if you get some of those calls it can make a difference."  IU
	got off to something like a 10-0 start, and then State spent the
	rest of the first half catching up.  They did, though, as the score
	was knotted at 33 at the break.  Calbert Cheaney hit his first three
	shots but was then shut out the rest of the half by Dwayne Stephens.
	During the first 4:09 of the second half, the Hoosiers reestablished
	their lead at 43-35 as Cheaney hit three more shots.  That was it
	for him in the game.  MSU closed to 43-41 around the eight minute
	mark.  Matt Nover hit a short J to give his team a 45-41 lead, but
	IU relied on some better free throw shooting down the stretch to win
	the game.  The Hoosiers had another 6-point lead at 52-46 before the
	end.  Cheaney had 18 points and Anderson 10 as the only IU in double
	figures.  Smith had 19 in his Breslin Center finale, and with
	Steigenga's 17 were the only Spartans in double figures.  Smith had
	a lousy game, as he was brilliant one moment and then forcing
	something awful the next.  Knight said, "The most satisfying thing
	was when we had to win, we did.  We hung on."  Jud added, "...In
	these kinds of games it's hard to single out anyone who had a great
	game.  These kinds of games just don't look good."  15,138 on hand,
	hoping the Spartans fare better the rest of the way at Ohio State
	and at Michigan...
 
#32 ILLINOIS 68, #68 Michigan 65:  Illinois won another one "ugly"
	(as the Chicago Tribune put it), overcoming a horrendous first half
	of shooting to overtake the Wolverines in the game's final 15
	minutes.  The Illini couldn't shoot from the field in the first
	half, they couldn't shoot from the line at all, and generally looked
	disorganized all night.  Yet, they won.  Michigan was only 22-56
	from the floor themselves, so that helped.  The Wolverines did get
	off to a good start, though, and led at halftime 34-29, though 
	they could have and should have led by much more.
	Michigan still led 40-31 5:24 into the second half when the Illini
	went on a 28-11 run, making nine straight shots, including a bank
	shot from three-point land from Rennie Clemons, who hasn't shot much
	from out there this year.  The lead remained at 8 with just 1:59 to
	go when the Illini tried to "purdue" one away.  Demetrius Calip and
	Michael Talley combined for three treys to draw Michigan within
	65-64 with just 24 seconds left.  Andy Kaufmann then bricked two
	free throws (he once hit 32 consecutive this season), but the Illini
	rebounded after the second miss and Kaufmann hit one of two for a
	66-64 lead with :15 left.  Calip then hit one free throw with 6
	seconds left for a 66-65 score.  Kaufmann was quickly fouled, and
	he made the first one for a 67-65 lead.  He missed the second, but
	somehow the Illini picked up the loose ball and Andy was given
	another reprieve.  He again hit the first shot for a 68-65 lead, and
	again missed the second.  Michigan appeared to rebound this one, but
	a bad pass allowed the Illini to steal the ball and the final two
	ticks mercifully expired.  Eric Riley scored 13 in the first half
	for Michigan, but only four in the second half as Andy Kpedi held
	him in check.  Calip had 16 points, but was only 6 of 17 from the
	floor.  Kaufmann had 18 for Illinois, but was just 5 of 15 from the
	floor and 8 of 14 from the stripe.  Clemons and Larry Smith each
	had 14.  The Illini, at 44%, ended up outshooting Michigan.  14,584
	at the Assembly Hall...
 
 
#75 MINNESOTA 88, #209 Northwestern 70:  The Mildcats lost their 15th
	conference game in as many tries as the Gophers finally won a home
	game themselves.  The current losing streak of 16 games for NU is
	it's longest in 67 years.  The loss marked the 45th straight on the
	Big Ten road for them as well.  The Gophers were a bit off too,
	blowing a 15-point first half lead as the Cats closed to one at the
	buzzer, 38-37.  NU then took an early second half lead of 40-38
	before Minnesota turned the tables.  One stretch saw the Gophers
	extend a 43-42 lead to 55-42.  Northwestern then cut the lead to six
	at 63-57 before falling apart in the game's final 6 minutes, as the
	Gophers went on a 25-13 tear.  Kevin Lynch led the Gophers in
	scoring with 22 points, and Ernest Nzigamasabo (we haven't called
	his name much this season - "Zig-uh-muh-za-bo") had 21 in perhaps
	his best game so far.  Pat Baldwin was 10 of 11 from the field and
	led NU with 23 points.  14,597 at Minneapolis...
 
#47 PURDUE 69, #54 Wisconsin 62:  Purdue overcame a late first half
	8-point deficit, and then held off the Badgers in a tight ballgame
	at Mackey Arena.  The Boilers got off to another sluggish offensive
	start against Wisconsin, sort of like the first game in Madison.
	From a 7-7 tie the Badgers jumped out to a 15-9 lead.  The lead
	remained around five points until it was extended to 27-19 with
	under five minutes to go in the half.  Purdue then went on it's best
	run of the game, outscoring Wisconsin 11-2 the rest of the half in
	taking a 30-29 lead to the break.  The second half remained close.
	It was 50-48 Purdue under the 12 minute mark when the Badgers took a
	couple of small leads, the biggest being of I believe three points.
	The game was retied at 57 with just over two minutes left when
	Purdue took command.  The Boilers went ahead 60-57, and after the
	Badgers closed to one, Jimmy Oliver hit a trey as the shot clock was
	expiring for a 63-59 lead.  Willie Simms had a three-footer
	rejected by Chuckie White when the Badgers had a chance to tie the
	game at 63.  Purdue finally got the lead above four in the
	final :30 by hitting some free throws, and the Badgers were unable
	to free Tim Locum for any threes.  The others attempted were
	missed.  The Badgers shot well from the stripe while the Boilers
	labored.  White had several big baskets inside down the stretch, as
	the Boilers did a good job on Patrick Tompkins again.  14,123 on
	hand for the students' final home game of the season...
 
Saturday:
 
	#4   Indiana at #54 WISCONSIN              Noon CST   Big Ten/Raycom
	#32  Illinois at #209 NORTHWESTERN         2:00 pm    Big Ten/Raycom
	#47  Purdue at #43 IOWA                    7:00 pm
Sunday:
 
	#35  Michigan State at #6 OHIO STATE       1:00 pm ABC (national?)
	#75  Minnesota at #68 MICHIGAN             3:00 pm ABC (regional?)
 
RATINGS/RECORDS:
 
  New    New    New   New
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    6      2     2     2    Ohio State       14-1    24-1      24-1
    4      5     5     7    Indiana          12-3    24-4      24-4
   32     30    NR    NR    Illinois         10-5    20-8      19-8
   35     35    ??    NR    Michigan State   10-6    17-9      17-9
   43     37    ??    NR    Iowa              7-8    18-9      16-9
   54     NR    NR    NR    Wisconsin         7-8    13-12     12-11
   47     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            6-9    14-11     14-11
   68     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          6-10   13-13     13-13
   75     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         4-11   11-14     11-14
  209     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-15    5-20      3-20

Second time in a few weeks that the refs had the say in an OSU victory. I
think it's a conspiracy to keep a #1 ranking for a Big Ten team in the
Midwest Regionals. Shameful call yesterday considering the wide open play
of the rest of the game. Shades of Seton Hall/Michigan....

    Third time.  Don't forget Perry Carter carrying the ball atop his
    manly shoulder after stealing the ball from Calbert as the clock
    ticked down to zero.  True, Indiana didn't deserve to win anyway.
    The most egregious of the three certainly would be the Minneosta
    call that led to the now infamous "three jackasses" vituperations from
    Clem.
    
    Big10 Tom

 Agreed the 5 second call was the most bogus. What did ole Clem say? All
 I got to hear or read back here in the NECCJ (tm) was that he got reprimanded.

 mike

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-4-91)  NCAA
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1991 21:10:01 GMT
 
The Buckeyes clinched at least a tie for the Big Ten title yesterday,
their first since 1971 (Luke Witte, Alan Hornyak, etc.).  It wasn't
easy, though.  Indiana continued it's surge after the Iowa loss with a
second straight big road win.  Illinois just about nailed down third
place for the year, Purdue kept alive it's NCAA hopes with a stunning
comeback at Iowa, and Michigan probably iced an NIT berth.  Minnesota
was eliminated from postseason play.  Wisconsin dropped another game and
further jeopardized it's post-season aspirations (NIT at best now).
Michigan State lost yet another heartbreak to an excellent team...
 
Saturday:
 
#4  Indiana 74, #54 WISCONSIN 61:  The Badgers led by three at the
	break, but IU's superior execution in the last ten minutes of the
	game made it look easy at the end.  The Badgers tight defense (most
	of the time) held the Hoosiers to just 23 first half points.
	Calbert Cheaney himself scored more than that in the second half,
	24, as Bob Knight switched to a 1-3-1 offense in the final 20
	minutes and watched his team blister Wisconsin for 51 points.  The
	final five minutes were vintage Indiana, as, with the game still
	very much in doubt, the Hoosiers time-and-again worked for great,
	easy shots and made them.  Steve Yoder called Cheaney "by far the
	best player in the Big Ten".  Knight summed it up well:  "Wisconsin
	seems to be starcrossed.  They've played well but come up a bit
	short.  But with the fan support they've had, they could be very
	tough in the NIT".  Eric Anderson chipped in with 11 points, while
	Greg Graham looked very quick in getting 10.  Cheaney ended up with
	30 points.  Willie Simms had 22 for Wisconsin, and Tim Locum 13,
	all in the first half (I don't think that's the first time that's
	happened).  Another great road victory for the Hoosiers, who could
	have gone into the dumper after the home loss to Iowa.  11,924
	filled the old UW Fieldhouse...
 
#32 Illinois 91, #209 NORTHWESTERN 81:  The Illini shot 59% to fend
	off the pesky Wildcats, who are playing pretty well despite their
	awful record.  Actually, the final score is probably a bit
	misleading, as Sweet Lou put in the walkons.  Uncharacteristically
	for this season, both teams shot well over 50% (Illinois was 59.6
	while NU was 55.6).  The Illini pulled away late in the first half
	for a six-point lead at 40-34.  The Wildcats had hung tough all
	half.  Illinois then surged ahead quickly in the second half,
	building leads of 49-38 and 64-48.  The Illini hit 18 of their first
	24 second half shots.  Many aspects of the game were quite even, as
	Northwestern didn't embarrass themselves.  Larry Smith scored a
	game-high 26 points, 12 of them coming from the stripe.  Andy
	Kaufmann had 21 on 10-15 shooting.  Don Brotz had 22 points for NU.
	Kevin Rankin had 15.  A sellout crowd of 8,117 saw this game at
	Welsh-Ryan Arena...
 
#47 Purdue 70, #43 IOWA 65:  Purdue staged a tremendous comeback in
	the game's final 7:56, outscoring Iowa 21-4 to grab a huge victory.
	The players had dedicated the game to Gene Keady, who's mother had
	passed away either Thursday night or Friday.  Keady also got the
	heave-ho, earning two technicals (he looked grouchy from the opening
	tipoff).  The first one came only about two minutes into the game,
	as Tom Rucker whistled him after calling Matt Painter for one of
	those touch fouls.  The second one came about 5 or so minutes into
	the second half after another call Gene didn't like.  The Purdue
	radio announcer commented, "Gene's over-reacting again".  Iowa
	really didn't cash in on either T, though.  One of Jimmy Oliver's
	patented, angled, bank-in trifectas won this game in the final 20
	seconds (believe it or not, Iowa fans, he's made that shot at other
	times this year).  The first half was pretty interesting, and
	high-scoring, as Troy Skinner drilled a bomb at the horn to tie the
	game at 38 heading into the lockerroom.  Purdue had started quickly,
	as Acie Earl sat, and led 18-13 when he entered.  Iowa then went on
	an 11-2 run, going ahead 24-20, much to the delight of the loud
	Carver-Hawkeye sellout.  Purdue then regained a 36-31 lead just
	before halftime and another Iowa surge.  Purdue scored the first
	hoop of the second half, 40-38, then didn't score again until about
	another six minutes elapsed, as the Hawkeyes led 49-40.  The teams
	traded baskets, then, over the next 6 minutes, until Iowa took a
	61-49 lead, with 7:59 left.  Purdue, over the next 5+ minutes,
	scored 11 straight points to close to 61-60.  During this stretch
	the Hawkeye offense broke down, either missing shots or committing
	turnovers.  Even with this help, Purdue blew four consecutive
	chances to overtake the Hawkeyes, including two bricks at the line
	from master bricklayer Chuckie White.  Val Barnes finally broke the
	ice for Iowa to give them a 63-60 lead and seemingly the kick in the
	pants the team needed.  But, that's when Oliver woke up, as he
	bombed in a three to tie the game at 63 late.  Earl then missed a
	pretty short one, leading to Oliver's bank-in three and a 66-63
	Purdue lead, this with only about 20 seconds left.  Iowa then missed
	it's own three, and Craig Riley nailed two freebies after a foul.
	After an Earl dunk, White finally hit a couple of FTs to close out
	the scoring.  Oliver led Purdue in scoring with 21 points, Ian
	Stanback had 15 in a very good performance, and Riley and Linc
	Darner had 11 each.  Barnes led Iowa with 14 points.  Earl and
	Skinner had 12 each.  Iowa's play noticibly drops when Earl is on
	the bench.  The officiating in this game was interesting as well, as
	the Hawkeyes were allowed their style of board crashing and back
	climbing, in addition to the Keady kickout.  There was also a
	phantom whistle on Acie Earl, called by Tom Rucker, as Earl was
	demonstrating to another ref a move Riley had just made.  The groan
	of the Iowa crowd when Oliver dropped in his 25-footer was
	incredible...
 
 
Sunday:
 
#6  OHIO STATE 65, #35 Michigan State 64:  The Buckeyes continue to
	live dangerously, as the Spartans gave it all they had before
	falling on a foul shot.  OSU seemingly put this game away around the
	two minute mark, leading 64-57.  One of the definitive hoops in the
	OSU surge was a steal after a bad Andy Pennick pass and subsequent
	dunk.  The Buckeyes must have thought the game ended then, though,
	as Matt Steigenga (wasn't Keith and Dick's argument over the
	pronunciation of his name silly?) hit a beautiful three to tie the
	game at 64 with :39 still left.  The Buckeyes got a good shot from
	Jamaal Brown with :05 left, but he sent it in hard and it came right
	back to him.  Pretty much in one motion, he rebounded and re-shot,
	as Steve Smith tapped his shooting elbow.  The whistle blew as Brown
	went down hard, and after bricking the first FT, he rattled in the
	second to win the game.  The oft-mentioned refs' convention around
	the scorer's table preceded the FT's, though, as one second was put
	back on the clock.  The ensuing MSU inbounds was thrown clean over
	the opposite end line, so OSU got to inbound under it's own hoop to
	end the game.  Smith had 23 to lead the Spartans, but he was only 9
	of 25 from the floor and never drew a foul while shooting (he never
	went to the line at all).  He also was careless at times.  Steigenga
	and Dewayne Stephens played solid games.  Neither team shot very
	well, but it was an interesting game, as MSU led a good deal of it,
	including 33-32 at halftime.  Jim Jackson had 20 for the Buckeyes.
	13,276 worn-out fans at Columbus...
 
#68 MICHIGAN 68, #75 Minnesota 60:  Michigan really played well
	yesterday and ensured a losing season for the Gophers.  UM won
	this game in the first half, sprinting out to a 39-27 lead at the
	break.  Demetrius Calip hit 5 threes in the game, and scored 29
	points.  He's really had a fine season for Michigan and should cop a
	few post-season accolades (he was a key player filling in for
	overrated Sean Higgins two years ago during Michigan's glory run).
	The Gophers had a balanced attack, but they just couldn't keep up.
	Dana Jackson had 14 for this basically young team, one which will get
	much better soon.  Michigan is probably a lock for the NIT now, but
	a win against Michigan State next Saturday would ice it.  10,485
	at Crisler Arena...

Wednesday:
 
	#6  Ohio State at #47 PURDUE                7:00 pm CST
	#32 Illinois at #54 WISCONSIN               7:00 pm
 
Thursday:
 
	#75 Minnesota at #4 INDIANA                 7:00 pm
	#43 Iowa at #209 NORTHWESTERN               7:00 pm
 
Saturday:
 
	#54  Wisconsin at #75 MINNESOTA             Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#35  Michigan State at #68 MICHIGAN         2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#209 Northwestern at #47 PURDUE             1:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#4  Indiana at #32 ILLINOIS                 11:00 am Big Ten/Raycom
	#6  Ohio State at #43 IOWA                   1:00 pm ABC (regional)
  
[End of Regular Season]
 
RATINGS/RECORDS:
 
  Old    Old    Old   Old
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    6      2     2     2    Ohio State       15-1    25-1      25-1
    4      5     5     7    Indiana          13-3    25-4      25-4
   32     30    NR    NR    Illinois         11-5    21-8      20-8
   35     35    ??    NR    Michigan State   10-7    17-10     17-10
   43     37    ??    NR    Iowa              7-9    18-10     16-10
   47     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            7-9    15-11     15-11
   54     NR    NR    NR    Wisconsin         7-9    13-13     12-12
   68     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          7-10   14-13     14-13
   75     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         4-12   11-15     11-15
  209     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-16    5-21      3-21

    >What did ole Clem say?
    
    Paraphrasing from memory:
    
    "It's a goddamned shame that these kids worked so hard and beat the
    #2 team in the country on their home floor only to have the game 
    stolen from them by three jackasses wearing striped shirts.  I don't
    know what they were thinking, except to prevent Ohio State from losing.
    If the Big10 and NCAA had any class, cared about fairness, they'd run
    these three stupid jackasses out of college basketball for good."

Norm Ellenberger, currently a full-time assistant at Indiana, has been
cited for alleged improper recruiting contacts while at UTEP. The NCAA is
investigating their program, where Ellenberger was a part-time coach from
86-90. NCAA rules bar part time coaches from recruiting off campus. The
NCAA report made public accused UTEP and Ellenberger with 2 prospective
recruits.

This is Ellenberger's second confrontation with the NCAA. He was fired at
New Mexico in 1979 after a grade-fixing scandal at that school.

Bobby Knight can probably deflect this while the status is still at the
level of allegations. If proven to be true, the school would have no
choice but to fire him. Also, if true, the NCAA should act like they did
in the Kentucky scandal and bar Ellenberger for some period of coaching.
If they are proven to be inaccurate, Knight and Indiana should make that
clear, since some investigations just fade away and one is left with a
notice that the allegations were made and not much fanfare when the
investigations disprove them.

TTom

    It sounds like another one of those petty-ass NCAA rules, it's a shame
    the NCAA doesn't hit the real violaters hard but instead go after these
    small violations.
    
    i.e. The hotel stuff at UNLV, free sneakers at school's, Steve Alford
    posing for a charity poster and a million other meaningless things.
    
    This is not in defense of IU because no violations have occured there
    but to go after a part-time coach who might have contacted a recruit
    during a legal time-period. Hell I'd even complain if this happened at
    North Carolina.  It's a little different than shipping thousands of 
    dollars to the father of a prospective recruit(Kentucky violation).
    
    It's about time for a separate orginazation outside the NCAA to begin
    to investigate these rule violations and for the NCAA to get rid of 
    some of these petty rules.
    
    Cap

    Bob & Indiana could care less about Ellenberger's problems at UTEP
    cuz Bob brought him on with the explicit understanding that he'd done
    wrong prior to showing up at IU.  
    
    Bob has a career history featuring two thrusting prongs: 1) He does 
    things geek PR freaks tend not to like, such as hiring a coach with
    a troubled past, and, 2) he runs a_immaculate program, which is why
    his teams never feature high-priced centers and widebodies.
    
    If you care so much about rules violations write about UNLV, who
    recruit kids with SATs of 550 and criminal records who also happen to
    be great hoopsters no other univeristy (i.e., UCLA, Zona, etc.) cain
    touch, and if they do well they're paid upwards of a $500,000 per year
    and are illegally wired into mega real estate deals and retailing start
    ups.
    
    If the IRS investigated Tark, he'd not only not be coaching, he'd be
    doing time in the federal penintentary.
    
    Big diff between *scum* and giving a miscreant a second chance just to
    spite the geek freeks.
    
    Big10 Tom  

I get the point about hiring the coach with a "troubled past". I
especially like it this is directed at PR freaks.

I get the point about UNLV. I missed the leap from SATs and paying
players to Tark should have a problem with IRS. Are you saying that he
too is receiving illegal - undeclared - compensation? Now, I'm not saying
that he might be not somehow criminally involved with some of this but I
don't know and haven't heard details of a tax problem. 

>    Big diff between *scum* and giving a miscreant a second chance just to
>    spite the geek freeks.

What if this is changed to third chance?

TTom

Purdue beat Ohio State last night 72-67, which should cause all sorts of
problems for the NCAA committee.   I can't prevent the cynical side of
me from thinking there's some sort of conspiracy going on to get as many
Big 10 schools into the tournament.   Each team is worth $250K to the
league... Purdue was out of it completely two weeks ago.. now they're
a win away {Northwestern, I think} from a pretty decent shot at a slot
in the tournament.

Ohio State hasn't exactly been dominating lately... They had won several
very close games in a row.  Hope they get things going again soon.

I was thinking the conspiracy had more to do with Keady's recent personal
tragedy. The again Doug they did blow the first game against OSU so maybe
it's just the kids are coming of age. They certainly look cool last night
at crunch time. The pass to White off the trap in the corner was a beauty.
Wish ESPN had covered more of it...

mike

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-7-91)  NCAA
Date: 7 Mar 91 19:57:22 GMT
 
Who says Steve Smith has "no help"?  Did you know that Mark "Monty"
Montgomery leads the Big Ten in assists (he should, since Smith takes so
many shots) and is third in steals!!!  Let's not hear anymore whining
out of East Lansing... ;-)
 
Wednesday's Results:
 
#39 PURDUE 72, #8 Ohio State 67:  The Boilermakers boosted their
	stock tremendously for NCAA tourney consideration as they led most
	of this game and held the Buckeyes off down the stretch, before an
	ear-shattering 14,123 at Mackey Arena.  The keys to this game were
	OSU shot selection (again), as Purdue outshot the Buckeyes 60% to
	39% from the floor, and Matt Painter's defense against Jim Jackson.
	Also, another tremendously inconsistent officiating job by the refs,
	headed up by Ed Hightower.  Purdue got the benefit of the doubt in
	the first half, being whistled only 5 times to OSU's 11, but in the
	second half, Purdue had already committed 10 fouls by the 10:10
	mark, while OSU finally committed a 7th with 3:30 left.  The
	Boilers ended up with 15 in the second half to OSU's 10.  Both
	teams overcame these "consistencies" to put on a great show.  I
	understand ESPN picked up the final 1:30 of the game, so I hope you
	got to see it.  The teams traded hoops early, and then Purdue
	assumed a lead after the score was tied at 15, as they led
	20-15 after a couple of hoops by Chuckie White and Ian Stanback.
	OSU tied it up at 22 on a Chris Jent trey, and after Mark Baker
	tied the game again at 24, Purdue shot ahead 32-24 with 3:35 left in
	the first half.  The Buckeyes shaved the score to 32-31 with 1:22 to
	go on a Jim Jackson trey.  Baker hit two free throws with :04 left
	to send the teams to a 35-33 Purdue advantage at the break.  The
	Boilers led all of the first 14 minutes of the second half, jumping
	out to leads of 41-36 and 53-45, the latter with only 6:38 left.
	Over the next few minutes, the only thing Purdue had to show for
	itself was a White dunk.  Ohio State, on the other hand, scored 11
	points, and led 56-55.  The game see-sawed for a couple of
	possesions, and then Purdue went ahead and kept the lead.  Jimmy
	Oliver hit a huge three to give Purdue a 64-60 lead, and then the
	Boilers went up 68-63 with 1:18 to go.  Perry Carter then hit a free
	throw and missed the second (way short), but Chris Jent snared
	the board and whipped the ball to Jackson, who drained a three to
	cut the lead to just one, 68-67, with 1:14 still left.  Oliver
	and Linc Darner iced the game with free throws down the stretch, as
	Purdue held off the Buckeyes.  The Buckeyes have now not won in West
	Lafayette since 1985.  Oliver had a great game, scoring 27 points
	and hitting the big shots when they had to be hit.  Chuckie White
	celebrated his 23rd birthday with 21 points in an inspired second
	half.  Painter had 6 points and generally did one of the best jobs
	of the year by a Purdue guard running the offense.  The Boilers got
	a bunch of good shots in this game.  Jamaal Brown had a nice game
	with 14 points, tying Jackson for team honors.  Mark Baker had 11.
	Treg Lee and Perry Carter combined for only 17 points, but both
	helped OSU to a 36-25 rebound advantage, 28 of them in the second
	half!  I told Randy Ayers to "Beat Vegas" after the game.  He smiled
	nicely, as always...
 
#55 WISCONSIN 85, #33 Illinois 77:  The Badgers kept their
	tournament hopes alive as well by holding off the Illini after
	dominating most of the evening.  Or, as the Chicago Tribune put it
	this morning, "Illini turn sour up in Dairyland".  Four senior
	starters were honored in the final home game at the Fieldhouse.
	Wisconsin jumped out fairly quickly (both Deon Thomas and Andy Kpedi
	got into first half foul trouble), leading 15-11, 39-32, and finally
	46-34 at the break, as the Illini defense had a few lapses.  Both
	teams shot over 50%, so defense wasn't a highlight.  The Badgers
	increased the lead to 59-44 early in the second half, and led by 17
	with 14:24 to go.  Illinois reduced the lead to 76-70 with just
	1:12 to go, but the Badgers did not break.  With just the six point
	deficit and the ball, Rennie Clemons missed a three, and after some
	fouls, the Badgers made 7 of 8 at the foul line down the stretch.
	The Badgers had five players in double figures, led by  Willie
	Simms' 18 points.  Andy Kaufmann led Illinois with 19 points.  The
	Illini only went to the line four times, and two of those came on a
	technical whistled on Patrick Tompkins.  Pretty amazing in this era.
	11,189 in Madison making their NIT plans...
 
 
Tonight:
 
	#71 Minnesota at #2 INDIANA                 7:00 pm CST
	#48 Iowa at #201 NORTHWESTERN               7:00 pm SportsChannel
 
Saturday:
 
	#55  Wisconsin at #71 MINNESOTA             Noon     Big Ten/Raycom
	#29  Michigan State at #63 MICHIGAN         2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#201 Northwestern at #39 PURDUE             1:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#2  Indiana at #33 ILLINOIS                 11:00 am Big Ten/Raycom
	#8  Ohio State at #48 IOWA                   1:00 pm ABC (regional)
 
[End of Regular Season]
  
RATINGS/RECORDS:
 
  New    New    New   Old
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    8      2     2     2    Ohio State       15-2    25-2      25-2
    2      3     4     7    Indiana          13-3    25-4      25-4
   33     26    28    NR    Illinois         11-6    21-9      20-9
   29     49    37    NR    Michigan State   10-7    17-10     17-10
   39     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            8-9    16-11     16-11
   55     NR    NR    NR    Wisconsin         8-9    14-13     13-12
   48     NR    NR    NR    Iowa              7-9    18-10     16-10
   63     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          7-10   14-13     14-13
   71     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         4-12   11-15     11-15
  201     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-16    5-21      3-21

    What's Lou Henson's problem?  From the clips I saw, sure, Bob was being
    a poor winner, but given Henson's outburst I'd say Knight got the best
    of him and now firmly holds the upper hand.
    
    These guys truely hate each other guts, eh?  (Henson:  "He's nothing
    but a bully... I asked him to step outside with me...")
    
    glenn
    

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-8-91)  NCAA
Date: 8 Mar 91 17:43:31 GMT
 
Thursday's Results:
 
#2  INDIANA 75, #71 Minnesota 59:  The Gophers played tough early,
	leading by as many as nine, but the Hoosiers' superior talent wore
	them down over the long haul.  Calbert Cheaney scored all of his 16
	points in the second half as the Hoosiers pulled away.  I'll try to
	relay more details as they become available.  My radio reception was
	terrible, and neither McPaper nor the Chicago Tribune had much on
	it today...
 
#48 Iowa 79, #201 NORTHWESTERN 76:  The Hawkeyes dodged a major
	league bullet last night, trailing by as many as 13 in the first
	half and by as many as six with seven minutes left before pulling one
	out at Welsh-Ryan Arena.  James Moses was instrumental in bringing
	Iowa back, hitting five three's in the game.  He hit a huge one in
	the final minutes which gave the Hawkeyes a lead they wouldn't
	relinquish, though NU did shave it to one at 77-76 and had the ball
	at the end, down three, after a missed Iowa 1-and-1.  Jim Zabel
	implored all of us to "squeeze your radios tight" in the last few
	minutes, and it worked.  He's going to have the "big one" during one
	of these cliffhangers...  Back to the game, Northwestern led 49-40
	at halftime before Iowa started to chip away.  The Hawkeyes pulled
	within 61-57 under the 10 minute mark, but were down six again,
	68-62, with 7:20 left, when 6'11" NU center Kevein Rankin fouled
	out.  This was a major blow, as the Wildcat offense then stagnated,
	scoring only two more points until the 0:31 mark of the game.  They
	almost won anyway.  Iowa took the lead finally at 69-68 on a Chris
	Street basket.  Pat Baldwin quickly put NU back up 70-69, but then a
	three by Moses and another Street hoop put Iowa up 74-70.  The lead
	became six at 76-70 with just 0:31 left when Todd Leslie and Don
	Brotz sandwiched threes around an Iowa free throw to cut the Iowa
	lead to just 77-76 (Zabel was going beserk by this time).  The Cats
	called a timeout after Brotz' three, but were assessed a technical
	since they had no timeouts left.  However, since there were only 5
	seconds left, it was the only strategy they had left.  Troy Skinner
	drained both FTs to make the score 79-76, and then Iowa passed the
	ball in.  A Hawkeye was immediately fouled (forgot who), but he
	bricked the free throw and NU had one last chance, but they may not
	even have gotten a shot off.  Zabel was cheering more than
	announcing at that point, so who knows.  Val Barnes twisted an ankle
	in the first half and sat out the second, making the win even more
	remarkable.  Moses had 29 points and James Winters 13 for Iowa.
	7,112 on hand in Evanston to see Northwestern lose another home game
	in frustrating fashion...
  
Saturday:
 
	#55  Wisconsin at #71 MINNESOTA             Noon CST Big Ten/Raycom
	#29  Michigan State at #63 MICHIGAN         2:00 pm  Big Ten/Raycom
	#201 Northwestern at #39 PURDUE             1:00 pm
 
Sunday:
 
	#2  Indiana at #33 ILLINOIS                 11:00 am Big Ten/Raycom
	#8  Ohio State at #48 IOWA                   1:00 pm ABC (regional)
 
[End of Regular Season]
 
RATINGS/RECORDS:
 
  New    New    New   Old
Sagarin   AP    CNN   UPI   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ---   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    8      2     2     2    Ohio State       15-2    25-2      25-2
    2      3     4     7    Indiana          14-3    26-4      26-4
   33     26    28    --    Illinois         11-6    21-9      20-9
   29     49    37    NR    Michigan State   10-7    17-10     17-10
   48     NR    NR    NR    Iowa              8-9    19-10     17-10
   39     NR    NR    NR    Purdue            8-9    16-11     16-11
   55     NR    NR    NR    Wisconsin         8-9    14-13     13-12
   63     NR    NR    NR    Michigan          7-10   14-13     14-13
   71     NR    NR    NR    Minnesota         4-13   11-16     11-16
  201     NR    NR    NR    Northwestern      0-17    5-22      3-22

    	So MorT, what do you think of yet another shameful BobKnight
    episode.  You know Tark would never show up another coach like that.
    
    				/Don

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-11-91)  NCAA
Date: 11 Mar 91 15:39:53 GMT
 
A productive weekend for the conference, as 5 teams were selected to the
Big Dance and two made the NIT.  Ohio State got a #1 seeding in the
Midwest, at Dayton, despite getting hammered at Iowa.  Indiana cruised
by Illinois and took the #2 spot in the Southeast at nearby Louisville
(I predicted those two).  Michigan State won at Michigan and took the #5
spot in the West at Tucson, while Michigan will travel to Colorado to
face the Buffaloes in the NIT on Wednesday (ESPN).  Iowa took the #7
spot in the Midwest at the nearby Metrodome in Minneapolis, Purdue
routed hapless Northwestern and nailed down the #7 spot in the East at
Cole Field House in College Park, Maryland, against Bill Cosby's Temple
Owls, and finally the Wisconsin Badgers will host Bowling Green
Wednesday night in Madison in the NIT.  I will issue a separate posting
on the antics which occurred after the IU-Illinois game between Bob
Knight and Lou Henson...  Northwestern became the first team to ever
finish 0-18 since the round robin format was began back in the early
1970's...
 
I will have tourney updates as the teams advance... 
 
Saturday:
 
#67 MINNESOTA 80, #60 Wisconsin 70:  The Gophers broke open a close
	game in the second half, building a 19-point lead with a 27-7 run 
	before Wisconsin got within nine late.  Rob Metcalf had a couple of
	big treys to get the run going.  Kevin Lynch led Minnesota with 18
	points in his collegiate swan-song while Willie Simms had 23 for
	Wisconsin.  Before this win, the Gophers only had two wins over
	Northwestern to show over the last 13 games.  16,622 at The Barn...
 
#26 Michigan State 66, #68 MICHIGAN 59:  Steve Smith scored 18
	points in the second half (24 for the game) as the Spartans held off
	the Wolverins before a packed house of 13,609 in Ann Arbor.
	Michigan hung in there in the first half despite 30% shooting and
	Eric Riley's 9+ minutes of pine-time due to foul trouble.  But, the
	Spartans were able to keep Michigan at bay in the second half though
	they could never put them away.  Demetrius Calip led Michigan with
	21 points...
 
#32 PURDUE 77, #204 Northwestern 48:  Purdue blew away from the
	Wildcats in the last 8 minutes of the first half and cruised to an
	easy victory before 14,123 at Mackey Arena.   Leading just 22-21,
	the Boilermakers put on a 14-4 run to close the first half to lead
	36-25, and began the second half with a spurt of 17-11 to go ahead
	53-36, and finished the game with a 24-12 run.  Jimmy Oliver, making
	a bid for first-team all-Big Ten, scored 26 points.  Kevin Rankin
	had 17 for the Wildcats, who have now lost 46 straight Big Ten road
	encounters and 22 straight Big Ten games...
 
 
Sunday:
 
#4  Indiana 70, #44 ILLINOIS 58:  The Hoosiers opened with an 11-0
	run, as it took Illinois six minutes to score, and IU basically
	cruised.  The Hoosiers led 16-2 before the Illini woke up, and saw
	the lead trimmed to 24-18.  But, IU closed the first half with a
	17-7 run and took a 41-25 lead to the lockerroom.  The Hoosiers led
	by 18 several times early in the second half, then the Illini cut
	the lead to 10-12 points and it seemed to stay that way until the
	2:30 mark, when Illinois cut the deficit to 63-56.  But, that's as
	close as the Illini got, as IU made the free throws down the stretch
	and put this game away.  Eric Anderson led IU with 20 points while
	Andy Kaufmann bulled his way to 21 for Illinois.  16,321 at the
	Assembly Hall in Champaign...
 
	#45 IOWA 80, #9 Ohio State 69:  The Buckeyes closed out the season
	on a very sour note, as the Hawkeyes beat them at their own game and
	earned an NCAA bid.  Iowa played a tremendous first half, blowing
	out to a 47-39 halftime advantage.  OSU got behind by as many as 14
	points in the second half, but closed to within four twice, at 69-65
	and 71-67, the latter with 2:05 left.  After Perry Carter stripped
	Acie Earl of the ball, the Buckeyes had a chance to get within one
	or two, but Earl forced Carter into a travel and Iowa salted the
	game away at the stripe.  Rodell Davis led Iowa with 19 points,
	while Jim Jackson had 24 for OSU.  15,500 rowdy ones at
	Carver-Hawkeye Arena...
  
RATINGS/FINAL STANDINGS:
 
  New    Old    New
Sagarin   AP    CNN   Post   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ----   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    9      2     5     #1    Ohio State       15-3    25-3      25-3
    4      3     3     #2    Indiana          15-3    27-4      27-4
   44     26    45     --    Illinois         11-7    21-10     20-10
   26     49    32     #5    Michigan State   11-7    18-10     18-10
   45     NR    37     #7    Iowa              9-9    20-10     18-10
   32     NR    NR     #7    Purdue            9-9    17-11     17-11
   60     NR    NR     NIT   Wisconsin         8-10   14-14     13-13
   68     NR    NR     NIT   Michigan          7-11   14-14     14-14
   67     NR    NR     --    Minnesota         5-13   12-16     12-16
  204     NR    NR     --    Northwestern      0-18    5-23      3-23

What happened re: Knight and Henson? And When...

I didn't hear about anything on Sports news.

Mike JN

    Knight apparently got his hands on some Illinois self-promotional hype,
    and sarcastically belittled the selections it made for Big 10 XXX of
    year.  Not so bad, even though most adults could have avoided it.
    
    Henson responded by  whining about Knight's actions, and tried to get
    the state of Illinois to close ranks around him.  ESPN speculated that
    he was doing this with an eye toward recruiting as Knight has pulled
    some plums from Ill. recently.
    
    Dan

    >what do you think of yet another shameful BobKnight episode...
    
    Bob ain't NEVER done anything wrong or shameful.  He has a clean 
    slate.
    
    >You know Tark would never show up another coach like that.
    
    Cuz Tark is in the same class as Lou-do: Low class, as in cheating
    for competitive advantage.
    
    According to inside accounts, here's what happened:
    
    Lou-do approached Bob in the runway outside the locker rooms and
    offered to shake His hand.  Bob told him he was a cheater and refused
    Lou-cheat-ass' extended hand, turned and went into the visitor's
    locker room.  Lou, enraged at somebody showing enough honor & honesty
    to call a cheat a cheat and to treat him accordingly, then proceeded
    to pound on the locked Indiana door and to scream obscenities through
    the door and for Bob to come out and fight.  Bob declined, perhaps
    unwisely, to come out and capitalize on a once-in-a-lifetime golden
    opportunity to kick a lying cheat-ass' ass.  Then, in the press room,
    Bob, understandably angry from the threats and obscenities, borrowed
    a pad and paper from a reporter and proceeded to mock Lou's infamous
    press conference from last year where he'd drawn a map of the midwest
    with arrows thrusting into Illinois from Iowa and Indiana (to explain
    to the NCAA investigators why he ran such a scuzbag cheaty program) - 
    Bob drew Indiana thrusting a big thick black arrow thrusting into
    Illinois from Hoosierland and, speaking in a whiney voice, mocked Lou
    by putting on a_explanation about how the undermanned Hoosiers managed
    to beat such a_awesome program as the one extolled in the SID's brochure 
    which failed to mention cheating and probation.  Bob then explained
    that a bullshit brochre like the one he was brandishing "wore his
    ass out" and that he understood that a troubled program like Illinois'
    "needed help" and that "I'd like to help this program solve their
    problems but I'm too busy right now, I've got a NCAA tourney to go
    to."
          
    Then Lou-do got up and did his whiney routine, falsely implying that 
    it's bullying to refuse to shake a known liar's hand, or to come out
    and kick a known cheat's ass.
    
    I disagree with these false assertions.  I point out that Lou commands
    the undying disrespect of several other honest coach's who've recruited
    against the high-paying Lou-do, Dr. Malpractice and Digger Phelps among
    them.  
    
    This almost tops the time Bob did a 20 minute interview on his TV show 
    with a jackass dressed up as a Purdue cheerleader wherein he queried
    Ms. Mule on the Boilermaker hoops program and campus life in West Lafayette.
    
    Ha haa.  Way to go Bob!  Chump the old cheat-ass!  Give him his just
    disrespect.  In Lou's face !!  Haa.
    
    Big10 Tom

    From what I've read, this seems like the old Chuck Noll/Sam Wyche
    arguement.  Notice the similarities between Noll and Knight, two
    tell-it-like-it-is winners; notice the similarities between Wyche and
    Henson, two crybaby losers.
    
    Like Noll said when Wyche whined about not getting a handshake: "I
    don't shake the hands of people I don't like; it's hypocritical. 
    Winners let it go. Losers cry about it."  End of press conference.
    
    	--dan'l

    Thank you, dan'l.  Let's look at this situation from the perspective
    of Bob.  Put yourself in *Bob's* shoes: If you were standing in a 
    dark alley, and a whorish AIDS victim came up to you - open running
    puss sores in the forehaid, damp spots on her dress from open leisions,
    the stench of dried scab all about her - and she demanded that you let
    her plunge her long mottled tongue down your throat by way of a good-bye
    kiss...
    
    Is it wrong for you to decline?
    
    Big10 Tom

    I liked the part when a sarcastic Bob referred to the obvious "NCAA
    conspiracy" that had staked out and snared poor Henson...
    
    Henson comes off a lot like one of them TV preachers, with the whiny
    twang in his voice that barely masks the underlying insincerity.  Maybe
    there's a place for him in the ACC?
    
    glenn
     

>    her plunge her long mottled tongue down your throat by way of a good-bye
>    kiss...
>    
>    Is it wrong for you to decline?

How many lesions and how far down my throat?

    
    Cain someone pluz tell me where this dude's place on the court is?
    
    Jim Jackson..OSU
    
    Thanks,
    
    B.A.

When I saw him he was playing Forward, but the Associated Press named
him to the All America Second Team as a Guard.

????  if you are thinking about him for the Contest, check with Doug,
since he's running it for us; maybe Jimmy can be an either/or.

Mike JN

    >Knight: classless;
    
    Of course, what Dan's saying here is that in order to be "classy"
    one must accord respect to a known cheat.  Not surprising, coming 
    from Dan SnideAir, a fellow who's made public impassioned pleas for
    racial segregation and lowered academic standards, eh?
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    >in order to be "classy" one must accord respect to a known cheat.
    
    Didn't think a it when I wrote this, but you're setting us up.  Right
    now we're celebrating the 1st anniversary of the rigged contest in
    which you were caught cheating.  Ergo, to be "classy," we must accord
    you respect and courtesy.  
    
    LouHenson,JimValvano,NormStewart,EddieSutton,JohnWooden,DanSnideAir
    
    Big10 Tom

    >...which you were caught cheating. 
    
    *I* was caught cheating?!  Ah yes, hysterical, historical revision
    time, I guess.
    
    It was found that I won honestly and deservedly, and I magnanimously
    gave a ticket to the second place finisher.
    
    Dan

    I'm confused.  I know that's not hard to do, but nevertheless, I
    don't understand what Knight's problem is.  (That is, what
    specific problem Knight has with Henson.)  How did Henson 
    allegedly cheat, and whose ass was cheated?
    
    Maybe I should just stick to baseball.  It's easier to understand
    Rickey Henderson and Darryl Strawberry than these guys.
    
    Dave W.

    Re: .-1 Henson as cheater
    
    Illinois has been placed on probation for two years for "lack of
    institutional control".  A lot of wrongs going on, one of which was an
    offer of $80,000 and a Chevy Blazer to two recruits, one of whom is
    currently an Illini (Thomas) whom admitted it on tape.
    
    Knight and Henson have both been reprimanded by the Big 10 for
    embarrassing the conference.
    
    Dan

 Keep in mind that this same Lou Henson whom our fabled MrT is now calling
 a "cheat ass" is the same Lou Henson whose program's violations were also
 called "no big deal" by that same MrT.
 
 Cake and eat it, I suspect (sigh) once again ...
 
 Bob Hunt

    $80K and a car for playing roundball?  *I* wouldn't shake his hand,
    either.  If that's "poor judgement", I'd hate to see what a real
    crime is.
    
    Dave W.

    
    	Help...
    
    	How many points did Jammel Brown have in the second game this
    weekend?
    
    Thx...
    
    B.A.

    Gotta admit I'm really enjoying the new adidas ads.  So far I've seen
    BobKnight in a couple of different ones and a John McEnroe look-alike
    smashing his racket whilst having at the linesman.  The amazing part is
    they're actually dealing with some real meaty arguments, like poor
    sportsmanship and the recent NCAA decision to cut hoops scholarships.
    
    Bob sez he's always looking for other/better ways and he suggests they
    start charging the media to attend NCAA events to pay for the drop in
    scholarships.  (Around 600 kids will not get scholarships thanks to the
    recent ridiculous NCAA convention during which they put on a great
    media hype show whilst dealing with NONE of the serious issues facing
    college athletics.)
    
    Anyways all I can say is "AMEN, BOB.".  At the ACC Tournament alone I
    counted five (5) tables running the length of the court that were
    strictly for the media.  They all got in for zilch.  (The tourney tix
    ran ya $105 per, *if* you were lucky enough to have the opportunity to
    buy them.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 You're forgetting again, Soup, that Bob Knight needs the media every bit
 as much as they need him.
 
 Asking the media to pay for tickets to cover a sports event would be like
 us forcing Computerworld to pay to see our newest VAX.   Guarantee ya that
 they'd go over to IBM instead for the free hors d'oeuvres and open bar.
 
 You have this anti-media thing nailed down solid, don'tcha ???   Both Dean
 and Bob would be very proud of ya.
 
 Bob Hunt

I haven't caught many of the commercials, I'm usually either watching in
a Sports Bar, where you can't hear anything anyway, or at home with the
sound turned down so there's not all that squeaking  ;'D

Mike JN

    The new Adidas ad, with the multiple shots of folks doing sports
    "no-no's", is excellent.  It even made my 17-year old sit up and
    say "That's terrific".  Yes, that is John McEnroe throwing a tantrum
    on the tennis court.  A shot of a steroids container with the over-dub
    "Sports isn't about gimmicks".  A shot of a stock car driver switching
    hats during the post-race interview and the over-dub "Sports isn't
    about commercialism".  Final shot is a casket and flowers, over-dubbed
    with "Sports shouldn't be (or aren't, I've forgotten) life and death" 
    [why am I reminded of British soccer games?].  Final comment is 
    something to the effect of "Let's get back to the basics of sport".
    
    Brings up a lot of the more serious issues that we cover in here.
    
    A&W

    While these new ads are nice, I don't remember Addidas doing anything
    about their infamous "Addidas Troop" line of 'sports' accessories -
    which were basically clothes for gangs.  They didn't give a flying
    blank at a rolling doughnut then, did they?
    
    Oh, and A&W, you may have thought about British soccer cause there's a
    small shot of a riot at a British soccer game in the ad.
    
    JD

    Only problem with the Adidas ad might be that by the end, where I've 
    agreed with everything they've said, I'm asking myself: "They're
    right.  What do I need that new $75 pair of Adidas for?"  Adidas might 
    not be hyping their product as much as the others, but their 
    top-of-the-line isn't any more essential to sport than the next guy's.
    
    I think Knight made his point.  The closing line about the media was
    *A JOKE*.  Given Bob's history with the media and his dead-pan
    delivery, I thought it was very funny the first time I saw it.  And
    while Knight might realize that the media serves a purpose and he needs
    it, he's also smart enough to know that his criticisms of it aren't
    going to hurt him or his program.  That's the beauty of it: if he
    combats the media and keeps it honest, they'll only keep coming back
    for more.  As long as he stays clean, he's a curmudgeon, a character, 
    a constant in college basketball.  Everybody wins...
    
    As an example, I liked Knight's treatment this weekend of the 
    reporter who kept pestering him about whether he'd make adjustments 
    in response to Florida State's "athleticism".  Instead of sputtering 
    some nonsensical cliches, he kept the guy at bay by saying that he 
    didn't know what he meant, that basketball is an athletic game, an 
    athletic competition, so FSU's "athleticism" didn't concern him more
    than any other team's.  It was Knight at his most difficult, but a
    straightforward Knight you could respect for giving a stupid, 
    loaded question the reaction it deserved.
    
    glenn
        

    Glenn,
    
    Right on.  I found Knight's media comment to be pretty funny.  IMO,
    'athleticism' is one of those 'veiled' comments.  
    
    JD

    > -< Ah, go make up another story about Knight and the Russians >-
    
    Given your wanton wholesale disregard for Factual Reality, we'll
    just "forget" these established facts:
     
    1. Indiana's squad left the floor only after the Russians did.
    2. The Russians left after the official went over to the scorer's
       table and officially declared the game over, forfeited by Indiana
       per the 3 bench technical rule (Bob drew 3 bench TFs).
    3. The USAA sent Bob a letter apologizing for the offical's actions.
    
    We'll just "pretend" that Bob got sore and yanked his squad from the
    floor, and never mind the fact that 15,000 people (Dick Vitale among
    them) thought they saw what's described above.  Let's just call it
    a mass hallucination and remind ourselves that the needs of Bob myth-
    building is better served by the story that he quit the game.
    
    > -< Let's go Seton Hall, SJU, UConn! >-
    
    And sports ain't about regional bias, neither, is it, JD?
    
    Big10 Tom

    BTTom,
    re: regional bias comment....
    
    Take a *** pill!!!
    
    ;^)
    
    Kev
    

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-12-91)  NCAA
Date: 12 Mar 91 17:29:49 GMT
 
The AP All-American team included Jim Jackson of Ohio State and Steve
Smith of Michigan State on it's second team, while Indiana's Calbert
Cheaney made the third team.  Honorable mention included:  Damon Bailey
of Indiana (c'mon), Treg Lee of Ohio State, Kevin Lynch of Minnesota
(double c'mon).  No Jimmy Oliver of Purdue, Eric Anderson of IU, or
Demetrius Calip of Michigan, three players which would supplant Bailey
and Lynch on most any Midwestern team.
 
Then, the AP All-Big Ten was announced:
 
First Team:  Jackson, Smith, Cheaney, Oliver, Patrick Tompkins (Wis)
 
Second Team: Lynch, Calip, Andy Kaufmann (Ill), Eric Anderson (Ind), and
			 Acie Earl (Iowa).  No Bailey!
 
I didn't catch the third team, but Randy Ayers of OSU was named Coach of
the Year and Damon Bailey was named Frosh of the Year.  The announcer
did not list a Player of the Year, but if they chose one, I assume it
was Jackson.

[....]

RATINGS/RECORDS:  (IU ended up 3rd in UPI, OSU 5th and MSU 22nd)
 
  New    New    New
Sagarin   AP    CNN   Post   School         Big Ten  Overall  vs. Div I
-------   --    ---   ----   ------         -------  -------  ---------
 
    9      5     5     #1    Ohio State       15-3    25-3      25-3
    4      3     3     #2    Indiana          15-3    27-4      27-4
   44     37    45!    --    Illinois         11-7    21-10     20-10
   26     35    32     #5    Michigan State   11-7    18-10     18-10
   45     29!   37     #7    Iowa              9-9    20-10     18-10
   32     NR!   NR!    #7    Purdue            9-9    17-11     17-11
   60     NR    NR     NIT   Wisconsin         8-10   14-14     13-13
   68     NR    NR     NIT   Michigan          7-11   14-14     14-14
   67     NR    NR     --    Minnesota         5-13   12-16     12-16
  204     NR    NR     --    Northwestern      0-18    5-23      3-23

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-14-91)  NCAA
Date: 14 Mar 91 23:14:20 GMT
 
Wednesday's Results in the NIT:
 
	#34 COLORADO 71, #68 Michigan 64:   The Wolverines led by only six
	points at halftime, even though the Buffaloes shot an incredibly bad
	14% from the field, and it killed them, as the Buffs got hot in the
	second half and pulled away from Michigan in the final couple
	minutes.  Shaun Vandiver was a man, as he and Demetrius Calip led
	their respective teams in scoring.  A tough assignment for Michigan
	out in Boulder.  Colorado moves on in the NIT, while Michigan's
	season ends at 14-15, their first losing one since the 8-19 team of
	1982.  Vandiver scored 17 of his 27 points in the second half, as
	the Buffaloes cam back from a 25-19 halftime deficit.  They took
	their first second-half lead at 42-41 with 10:49 left, though the
	game see-sawed and was in doubt until the final minute...
 
	#60 WISCONSIN 87, #78 Bowling Green 79 (OT):  The Badgers had their
	hands full with the Falcons from Ohio, a team which has beaten
	Michigan State each of the last two seasons.  Willie Simms scored a
	career-high 31 point, six of them in the second session.  Bowling
	Green (17-13) had tied the game at the end of regulation on a
	10-footer by Ed Colbert in this exciting game...
 
Big Ten NCAA lineup: 
 
	#45 IOWA 76, #19 East Tennessee State (28-5) 73:  More details
	tomorrow morning, but the Hawkeyes staved off ETSU with two FTs with
	2.8 seconds remaining.  Iowa trailed by as many as 10 in the first
	half.  Rodell Davis made a huge steal, and an ensuing basket gave
	Iowa a 74-70 lead, this very late in the game.  ETSU hit a three to
	make things interesting...
                    
[....]

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-15-91)  NCAA
Date: 15 Mar 91 20:57:49 GMT
 
[....]
    
Big Ten NCAA lineup:
  
Thursday's Results:
 
Midwest Region, Minneapolis:
 
#45 IOWA (21-10) 76, #19 East Tennessee State (28-5) 73:  Rodell
	Davis' steal on the press and hoop gave Iowa a 74-70 lead which
	turned out to be just enough.  The Hawkeyes trailed by 10 points in
	the first half to the depleted ETSU team, but came back and held on.
	ETSU still had a four point lead of 37-33 at halftime.  Troy Skinner
	was perfect from the field and scored 14 points, along with James
	Moses.  Acie Earl had 18.  The Hawkeyes ruled the boards 39-26,
	before 25,759 at the HumpDome...
 
East Region, College Park:
 
#35 Temple (22-9) 80, #32 PURDUE (17-12) 63:  The Owls, who normally
	struggle offensively with a 43% field goal percentage and a scoring
	average under 70 points, blistered the Maryland nets to the tune of
	65% (30 of 46) and pulled away from Purdue.  After a 9-8 Purdue
	lead, the Owls never trailed.  From a 13-13 tie, they blew out to
	27-18, 31-20, and 37-27 at the break.  Temple shot 69% in the first
	half (15-22).  Purdue looked to turn the tide early in the second
	half, scoring the half's first 8 points to close to 37-35.  But a
	Temple trey, duece, and trey produced 8 consecutive points of it's
	own (45-35) and the closest Purdue ever got again was five twice, at
	45-40 and 68-63, with 2:11 left.  The Owls biggest lead (before the
	final margin) was at 62-49.  Two Purdue treys had brought the
	Boilers within 68-63, one of them by Travis Trice.  But, Temple just
	could not miss in this game, and scored the game's final 12 points.
	Mik Kilgore, a 6'8", 210 pound forward who roams the perimeter, was
	just too much to handle, scoring 25 points on 8 of 11 shooting from
	the field and a perfect 6 of 6 from the stripe.  He was 3 of 4 from
	three-point land, even though he's only a 39% shooter from that
	distance normally.  Temple was 6 of 10 from that range overall.  The
	four starters besides Mark Macon, who scored 19 but was not
	dominant, were 23 of 32 from the floor (72%).  Jimmy Oliver had 21
	points for Purdue (the only one in double figures), but was only 8
	of 19 from the floor.  Chuckie White had 13 boards but was terrible
	on offense, scoring only 7 points.  John Chaney said, "You can only
	hope and dream for a night like this.  We did a good job of getting
	the ball to the principal people on the floor, and hitting the A, B,
	C shots."  Gene Keady said, "Their quickness was a major factor".
	The Owls played a great game and will now face Dick Tarrant and the
	Richmond Spiders.  Good luck...  13,386 at Cole Field House...
 
Southeast Region, Louisville:
 
#2  INDIANA (28-4) 79, #105 Coastal Carolina (24-8) 69:  In the
	first half, Coastal Carolina looked like the worst team which ever
	played in the NCAA tournament.  In the end, Indiana was relieved to
	get a tough victory.  Brian Penny, a guard, put on one of the
	greatest shooting displays in NCAA tourney history, nailing 13 of 15
	fielders (5 of 6 from trifecta land), and nearly brought the
	Chanticleers (a stud rooster) back from the 46-30 halftime deficit.
	Actually, they were down by just three with just over two minutes to
	go, with the ball, but Eddie Lesaine, who scored only 5 points, took
	an ill-advised three with no rebounders under the hoop, and IU
	grabbed the carrom and salted the game away at the stripe (why
	didn't they let Penny shoot?!?).  Indiana committed only 2 second
	half fouls, prompting the CCU coach to comment, "Indiana University
	plays the cleanest defense in the country", in a sarcastic tone.
	Eric Anderson led IU with 22 points, while Penny finished with a
	career-high 34 points.  IU repeatedly stole errant Chanticleer
	passes in the first half and scored on the break.  Damon Bailey hit
	a crucial three after Lesaine's miss, before a partisan crowd of
	18,217 at Freedom Hall...
 
[....]

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-18-91)  NCAA
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1991 20:21:24 GMT

Friday's NCAA Results:
 
West Region, Tucson:
 
#26 MICHIGAN STATE (19-10) vs. #66 Wisconsin-GB (24-7):  A Steve Smith
	15-foot J at the horn gave the Spartans a tough win over the Phoenix
	of UWGB.  The leading scorer for UWGB, Tony Bennett, was held to
	just 9 points, perhaps due to some foul trouble.  State trailed much
	of the game.  Smith ended up with 19 points, while Dean Vander Plas
	led the team from Titletown with 17 points, before 13,367 at
	gArY's hOuSe...
 
Midwest Region, Dayton:
 
#9  OHIO STATE (26-3) 97, #154 Towson State (19-11) 86:  OSU ended
	it's two-game losing skid with a win over TSU.  The Buckeyes built
	an 18-point second half lead (after being ahead 45-37 at the break),
	but Towson got within 75-70 with only 5:33 left.  Ohio State then
	began to pull away again with a 7-2 spurt.  Towson played OSU pretty
	tough in this game.  Jim Jackson led the Buckeyes with 24
	points, before a partisan crowd of 13,055 at the UD Arena... 
 
Saturday's Results:
 
Midwest Region, Minneapolis:
 
#5  Duke (28-7) 85, #45 IOWA (21-11) 70:  The Blue Devils dismantled the
	vaunted Iowa press with passes over the top and easy hoops to blow out
	the Hawkeyes.  The first half was fairly close up to the point when
	Duke led 30-26, but they then had a 14-3 run to close the half and led
	44-29 at the break.  The lead ballooned to 53-33 before Iowa made a
	comeback, getting as close as 12 points, but Duke was never in
	danger.  Duke is such a well-coached team.  Christian Laettner led
	the scoring for the ACC team with 19 points, while James Moses had
	23 for the Hawkeyes.  28,114 at the Metrodome up north, including
	lots of Hawkeye backers...
 
Southeast Region, Louisville:
 
#4  INDIANA (29-4) 82, #46 Florida State (21-11) 60:  Florida State played
	a great first half and a horrid second half, as a 6-point haltime lead
	turned into a 22-point loss.  The 'Noles led by 11, at 36-25, late
	in the first half, and the aroma of upset was in the air.  But, IU
	closed the first half with a 7-2 run, including a trey in the waning
	seconds, and opened with a 21-2 second half run (28-4 in all), to build
	a 53-40 lead, and the game was over.  The Hoosiers made 3 treys
	during the second half surge.  FSU got into some foul trouble as
	well, which didn't help them.  Calbert Cheaney led IU with 24
	points, while Douglas Edwards had 18 points and 14 boards for Pat
	Kennedy's crew, before 18,946 partisan IU supporters at Freedom
	Hall...
  
Sunday's Results:
 
West Region, Tucson:
 
#43 Utah (30-3) 85, #26 MICHIGAN STATE 84 (19-11) (2OT):  In a great game
	marred by some really assine switching by CBS (do those buffoons really
	think we would rather listen to Nance, Packer, and dough-boy Francesa
	instead of watching one of two cliffhangers in progress?), it seemed
	as though the Spartans had the "luck of the green" going for them,
	turning apparent defeat into extra sessions twice, using some
	strange circumstances.  This game was closely contested from the
	opening tipoff, as both teams seemed evenly matched.  State led
	33-29 at halftime, though both teams led the half, and the second
	half remained a see-saw affair.  The Spartans appeared dead, down
	64-60 with only about 30 seconds left in regulation, when a bizarre
	drive and hoop by Matt Steigenga (I think) and foul by Utah on Steve
	Smith resulted in a four-point play (the whistle blew as Steigenga
	was still driving, so I really don't know how the hoop could have
	counted).  Smith made both FTs, and the teams went to OT after Utah
	missed a trey.  Utah led the first OT with something like 6.6
	seconds to go when Mike Peplowski missed a bunny put-back, but was
	fouled.  He bricked both FTs, but the second one went right to Jon
	Zulauf, who put in the carrom and sent the game to a second OT.  The
	luck finally ran out for State in OT-2, though, as the Utes built a
	four-point lead and withstood Smith's last trey, as MSU could not
	stop the clock and Utah simply held the ball out of bounds.  Smith
	had 28 points, and Josh Grant 29 for Utah, as Rick Majerus does
	another great coaching job at Utah.  He called it, "the best
	game I've probably ever been involved in in my life".  13,497 antsy
	fans at the McKale Center, who were waiting for the Vegas-G'town
	game to start...
 
Midwest Region, Dayton:
 
#9  OHIO STATE (27-3) 65, #23 Georgia Tech (17-13) 61:  The Buckeyes
	were lucky to win this game, as the Jackets blew several
	opportunities to tie or reduce the lead when down by just 2 or 3 for
	what seemed like an eternity down the stretch.  Perry Carter scored
	19 points and grabbed 18 boards in a great effort.  Kenny Anderson
	just couldn't buy a hoop, shooting a miserable 8 of 28 and missing
	countless shots down the stretch.  The Buckeyes saw their 8-point
	halftime advantage, which went to 10 with nine minutes to go,
	dwindle to just two at 58-56 with only :32 left.  The Buckeyes
	managed to get the important boards and make the FTs when it
	counted, finally.  Many of Anderson's misses were wide-open.  Both
	teams shot an identical .369 from the floor (24 of 65), and the game
	had 94 rebounds because of the terrible shooting (OSU had 50).
	Anderson still led Tech with 25 points, while Jim Jackson was held
	to 16 on 5 of 17 shooting, before 13,055 in Dayton...
 
Thursday Night:
 
	Southeast Regional, Charlotte Coliseum:
 
	#4 INDIANA (29-4) vs. #7 Kansas (24-7)
 
Friday Night:
 
	Midwest Regional, Pontiac Silverdome:
 
	#9 OHIO STATE (27-3) vs. #39 St. John's (22-8)

[....]

    A few days ago, a Charlotte Observer sports columnist wrote a column in
    which he found it hard to say anything nice about Bob Knight.  So
    people wrote and faxed things to him.  Here are some highlights of
    today's column:
    
    "There are three nice things to say about Bobby Knight.  And they're
    hanging in Assembly Hall.  How many nice things does Dean Smith have?
    One?"
    
    "Bobby Knight embarrassed our school and our state and didn't act like
    a class guy.  But that's Bobby Knight.  And if Indiana beats Kansas,
    they'll beat Arkansas.  Bet?  You want to bet?  I can't bet money. 
    Lunch." - Kendall Gill
    
    "There's the good and there's the bad about Bobby Knight.  I'm trying
    to be as vague as possible." - Steve Scheffler
    
    "Bobby Knight is thoughtful, loyal and considerate" - Quinn Buckner
    
    (Knight's reply to Buckner's statement: "What was he on?")
    
    	--dan'l

 How about Knight's classic yesterday? There was a press conference scheduled
 at X-hour. Knight shows up about 12 minutes late. He then explains that the
 NCAA has a rule which states that all games must start by 10 pm EST and his
 game saturday nite started at 10:12 pm so he figured his watch must be off
 12 minutes so he was just adding that much time to his watch so he would be
 in time with the rest of the univere....


 hahahahahaaahahahaha

 mike

    As that press conference continued, he had some other good ones.
    
    The camera lights were bright and shining in his eyes.  He put his hand
    to his head and covered his eys, squinting, and said: "You'd have a
    hard time catching a bly ball in here."
    
    Knight on Kansas coach Roy Williams: "He coaches well and he is as
    impressive as any coach I've seen.  He and the boy at Duke, I never
    could pronounce that SOB's name, have done a great job."
    
    	--dan'l

That's the biggest difference between Bob and Dean.   Bob's real, Dean's 
a cipher.

    Bob mentioned Coach K at Duke. 
    
    talk about taking the pipe ! How many titles has Duke hauled in anyhow,
    out of how many Final Four trips ? And how bad were the beatings ?
    
    Doc

    Duke has taken the pipe in the final four, yes.  But, in my opinion, K
    has coached them to that point whereas the talent that Smith has
    recruited is what got them to the dance so many times.  
    
    Just my opinion, mind you, but a very valid one.  UNC has been loaded,
    dripping, listing with talent over the years and goes home early just
    about every year.  Duke has had one or two stars and a supporting cast
    that K manages to take pretty darn far...three straight final fours.
    
    	--dan'l

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: Big Ten UPDATE (3-22-91)  NCAA
Date: 22 Mar 91 15:16:27 GMT
 
Thursday Night's Result: 
 
Southeast Regional, Charlotte Coliseum:
 
#7  Kansas 83 (25-7), #4 INDIANA (29-5) 65:  This was simply a
	good, old-fashioned butt-whipping by Roy Williams' Jayhawks,
	following the same thing inflicted on Alabama by Arkansas.  This
	one began early, as the Jayhawks raced out 12-2, 16-4, 21-4, and
	26-6 before IU knew what it them.  The Hoosiers then righted
	themselves and cut the huge lead down to 28-17 with about 8 minutes
	to go in the half.  The lead remained in the 11-15 point range then
	until late in the half, when KU blew out to a 49-27 halftime
	advantage.  They slightly broadened the lead during the first
	portion of the second half, to 60-37, before IU mounted a comeback
	which saw them get as close as 13 points, but that was it.  The
	first time the team pulled within 14 was at 68-54 with about 6
	minutes to go.  It was 74-61 under the five minute mark when the
	Jayhawks ran off 4 points to lead 78-61, and coasted home with free
	throws.  Actually, the outcome probably could have been much worse if
	KU had made their free throws during the bulk of the second half.
	At one point, they were only 6 of 14 and had missed 3 or 4
	consecutive front ends of bonuses.  This was probably the only
	thing which allowed IU to remain within shouting distance.  Kansas
	dominated every other aspect of this game, in what some might
	consider a shocking result.  Roy Williams has to be given
	all the credit for devising a great game plan, as Kansas repeatedly
	worked for easy shots in the paint against IU's admittedly weak
	inside game.  The guards lit it up from outside early as well, which
	always helps open things up.  A most-impressive showing to be sure
	from this Big Eight power, setting up a very interesting contrast in
	styles tomorrow versus Arkansas (what do you think of the Hogs now,
	Mimi Griffin???  Arkansas doesn't even have to face IU!)...
                        
Tonight's Matchup:
 
	Midwest Regional, Pontiac Silverdome:
 
	#9 OHIO STATE (27-3) vs. #39 St. John's (22-8)    6:40 pm CST
                        

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball
Subject: FINAL Big Ten UPDATE (3-25-91)  NCAA
Date: 25 Mar 91 14:57:40 GMT

Friday's Miserable Result:
 
Midwest Regional, Pontiac Silverdome:
 
#39 St. John's (23-8) 91, #9 OHIO STATE (27-4) 74:  Ohio State
	certainly picked the worst possible time to lay a big, fat egg.
	But, Easter is coming up, isn't it...  43-24 at halftime!  It was an
	"NCer", to be sure.  The Redmen from the tough, tough Big East
	conference completely dismantled the Big Ten's purported best team
	before a mostly partisan 30,461 Big Ten fans at the Pontiac
	Silverdome, site of Purdue's collosal choke to Kansas State three
	years ago.  As the AP put it, St. John's "beat the top-seeded
	Buckeyes at their own game...They outshot, outran and outrebounded
	Ohio State..."  Mark Baker said, "St. John's kind of catches you
	off-guard.  Everybody said they like to control the tempo, but they
	pushed the ball up."  Looie said, "To play that well and sustain it
	makes me feel very, very good."  Ohio State only got as close as 16
	points in the second half.  When the score read 84-59, I just
	thought to myself, "You've got to be kidding!"  St. John's is good,
	obviously, but Duke sure kicked them yesterday.  Not a good final
	month for the Buckeyes, who truly struggled after the epic second
	OSU-Indiana matchup.  Jim Jackson had 19 points to lead OSU.  The
	seniors Perry Carter and Treg Lee had bad finales, scoring 9 and 6,
	respectively.  The Buckeyes even got outrebounded 29-28, and that
	doesn't happen often.  Robert Werdann had a career-high 21 points
	and Malik Sealy 22 for the Johnies...
 
[....]

 Minnesota got two years of probation, a ban on football post-season for
 next year, and the loss of a hoops scholarship for next year, too.  The
 wrestling team had some minor penalty placed on it as well.
 
 Lou Holtz and Luther Darville were both implicated in the infractions.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Saw the Indiana state high school hoops championship game on ESPN
    this weekend.  It featured star recruits Glenn Robinson (Purdue)
    and Alan Henderson (Indiana).  
    
    Let me just say that the only question remaining about Robinson is
    whether he's ready for the NBA.  This kid is a true widebody.  Very
    explosive.  He reminds me a lot of Alonzo Mourning, but seems to be
    somewhat quicker in the open court.  I have trouble imagining how
    this Webber kid from Michigan cain be any better than Robinson.
    
    Henderson is a painfully thin, but highly skilled.  Dunno if he was
    tired (they play twice on Championship day) but he was slow to get
    upcourt.  Henderons' game suffered mightily from Gary Roosevelt's
    collapsing zone designed to take his game away.  He acted on his
    frustration by canning a trey or two and going 1-on-2 with some
    success.  He's got good hands, a nice shot, cain put theball on the
    floor effectively, and fine timing on his jump.  His major weakness 
    is lack of strength, but he's only 17 somaybe his physique will fill 
    out.  I'd heard that Alan was slated to play forward, but with his 
    current skills he looks more like a center to me.
    
    Glenn, on the other hand, has the muscled body of a 28 year old main.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Nice setup MrT.  Having said all that you can now, in all good
    conscience of course, point to the fack (tm) that IU was physically
    outmanned each and every time they lose next year.
    
    Poetry!  Sheer, poetry!!  [:^(]
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    As is always the case, both independent analysts and events will
    confirm my statements.  Henderson is skinny.  Real skinny.  Glen
    is a buck stud by anybody's definition.    
    
    These plain facts cain't be wiped away by your foundation-laying 
    obfuscation.  
    
    As for next year's Hoosier talent level, I see this team (guessing,
    cuz I haven't even seen two of their three recruits) as being the
    most talented since the Isiah team of '81.
    
    For the first time in a full decade Bob will have height, strength,
    and depth along the front-line.  It's possible that Calbert Cheany
    will shift at least part-time to his more natural position of off
    guard.  No 6-2 ex-substitute guards in grad school playing forward,
    no centers and/or forwards who went largely unrecruited out of high
    school.  A real honest to god team along the lines of what the other
    big-time programs have.  
    
    True, I was disappointed the second I saw Henderson stand next to the
    scary Robinson, but five guys play on each side and Henderson looks
    like he'll be Indiana's best front-court player in a loooooong time.
    
    Big10 Tom

  �  Nice setup MrT.  Having said all that you can now, in all good
  �  conscience of course, point to the fack (tm) that IU was physically
  �  outmanned each and every time they lose next year.
   
 All of which, of course, doesn't relieve you of your team's pathetic
 but cherished heritage of declaring itself the poor underdog every
 time it laces up its' sneakers.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Neither me nor Dean ever declared ourselves the 'poor underdog every
    time (we lace up our sneakers)'.
    
    We *have* correctly pointed out that when we go 29-6 with marginally
    talented players it doesn't mean we cruised 29 times on our talent
    and were upset 6 times.
    
    Enough on this anyways.  What I wanna know is if MorT will belly to the
    bar and admit that IU deserves the favorite role for the National Title
    next year.  (As Dickie Vitale has already indicated.)
    
    I personally feel as though Duke deserves this honor, but that IU
    should be given the #2 spot.  Anything less than a Big 10 Title and
    trip to the Finals should be considered a disapointment.  (If they
    don't play Duke in the Finals, BTW, anything less than a Title should
    be considered a disapointment.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Other than the obvious reason of the respective coaching, why shouldn't
    North Carolina with the "marginally talented" (Chris) "Greatest 
    Freshman Class of All Time" (hoops experts) be considered Number Two to
    Duke in the pre-season?
    
    glenn
      

    Ha ha!  Good one glenn.  Imagine trying to accuse the media of *under*
    valuing Carolina's team in a given year!  Haw haw!!!
    
    No, just wearing jerseys that read 'NORTH CAROLINA' instantly means a
    Top 10 preseason ranking, minimum.  Any HS player we're interested in 
    will have his stock immediately raised by the talent scouts.  Anything
    less than a Title or at least a Final 2 appearance is a disapointment. 
    And to suggest anything else labels you a 'whiner'.
    
    Truthfully I'd say next years Carolina bunch has the *potential* to
    compete with the Nerds for the ACC Title, but realistically they're the
    favorites and we'll be battling with the mega-talented Demon Deacons
    for 2nd.  I'd think we have the *potential* to be a Top 10 team; the
    *potential* to do well in the post-season (as we've typically done);
    the *potential* even to reach the Final 4.
    
    Alas though, *potential* is the key, cause we're gonna be very, very
    young, with only 1 senior on the whole squad.  Should be fun watching
    Dean develop 'em though.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

   Depending on next year's recruiting, I think Indiana could be projected
   a #1 in two to three years.

   I would guess next year they would be projected, on the basis of Bob's
   excellent coaching, to be ranked at 4th or 5th, when in reality, on the
   basis of pure talent, age, and experience, they more fairly would
   expect to be ranked in the 18 to 24 range.

   Mike JN

    > Ha ha!  Good one glenn.  Imagine trying to accuse the media of *under*
    > valuing Carolina's team in a given year!  Haw haw!!!
    
    Huh?  I was talking about *you*, not the media.  You said Indiana
    should be #2.  Considering their performances this past year, why 
    should Indiana be ranked any higher than North Carolina?
    
    glenn
    

    >Considering their performances this past year, why 
    >should Indiana be ranked any higher than North Carolina?
    
    Let's see.  They both sort of won their conference title.  They both
    lost to the same team in the NCAA tournement.  They both have recently
    had the best recruiting year in the country, only Bob's is a year
    older.  Besides, Bob has HS Player of the Decade, Damon Bailey and Mr.
    Indiana (or is it Mr. Illinois) Eric Anderson as a senior.  To counter,
    Dean has Lynch and Davis as significant non-great recruiting class
    players.  Oops, Bob snuck in the frosh wide body sky scraping stud,
    Henderson.
    
    Dan
    
    

 Why of course Carolina will be better ... They just said sayonara to
 three seniors who picked up their masonry degrees by shooting a
 collective 8-for-36 in their choke job to the Jayhawks.
 
 Hey, I'd be looking better, too, if I jettisoned that kind of
 "baggage".
 
 Bob Hunt

Don't forget...


This is year #2 for the greatest freshman class of all time......

Only 3 more shots at the title.


Metz

    Firstly Mr.Metz, *I* never labeled them the greatest freshman class of
    all time.  *Those* unfair expectations were placed by the media.  (BTW,
    they're saying the same thing about the awesome bench coming into
    Michigan this year.  Every year somebody's got 'The Greatest Recruits
    Ever.'  That's what *sells, main!)
    
    Having said that I'll go on and say this crew is 1-for-1 in ACC
    Championships; 1-for-1 in Final 4 appearances; 1-for-1 in *TWENTY-NINE*
    win seasons.  (That's alot, folks.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 �   Having said that I'll go on and say this crew is 1-for-1 in ACC
 �   Championships; 1-for-1 in Final 4 appearances; 1-for-1 in *TWENTY-NINE*
 �   win seasons.  (That's alot, folks.)
 
 And it was 0-for-1 in *THIRTY* win seasons.  And it was 0-for-2 in
 games with *REAL* meaning against its' archrival, the national
 champion Duke Blue Devils.   (That's not enough, folks.)
 
 Bob Hunt

>RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                         12 lines  22-APR-1991 21:51
>         -< I might've called it Dean's best, but never 'Best Ever'. >-
    
    I stay the hell out of this debate (although my expert hoops knowledge
    tells me that Knight is the better coach) because I couldn't care less, 
    but damn, I would have sworn on a witness stand (whether facing a 
    chain-smoking defense attorney or not) that you called it the greatest 
    freshman class ever, ACChris.
    
    Charlie
    

 Yeah Dan but Deano already has that widebody stud Eric Montross sitting there
 with a year's experience under his belt. You know the guy Smitty benched 
 cause he was doing too much to control the Kansas game and we couldn't have
 a freshman upstaging the seniors now could we?? hee haw!!!!!!!!!!!

 mike    

    Ah yes, and Chris retreats back to his old arguement - blame the media.
    
    I love it.  The media has caused all of Dean's woes....
    
    JD

>>should Indiana be ranked any higher than North Carolina?
    
>    Let's see.  They both sort of won their conference title.  

Except the Big10 was its weakest ever while the Almost Close was the
nation's best...

>   They both lost to the same team in the NCAA tournement.  

Is there a point here?...

>   They both have recently had the best recruiting year in the country, 

Dan-the-inveterate-fibber just cain't bring himself to tale the whole 
Truth and go on to mention "... but Indiana's was rated 7th best until 
they signed Funderburke, who subsequently left, so what I'm really trying
to say here is that Indiana had the 7th best recruiting year in the country
but I just cain't bring myself to tell the truth in this matter..."

>   Bob has HS Player of the Decade, Damon Bailey and 

So, you're saying that Damon Bailey is the best player to come out of high
school in the past ten years?  I dunno, but if *I* were gonna give out that
honor I'd be looking at David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, or
about 125 players before Damon.  What Damon is is the most hyped player of
the decade, benefiting from being white and, most of all, embodying the very
character of the romanticized shooting star in the movie "Hoosiers."

>   Mr. Indiana (or is it Mr. Illinois) Eric Anderson as a senior.  

Mr. Illinois.  He's from Chicago.  It'll be nice to see Eric for the first
time playing power forward instead of weak center, but based on reports his
chronic back problem (he could barely move in the tournament) might see him
undergoing surgery and going red shirt next year.

>   Bob snuck in the frosh wide body sky scraping stud, Henderson.
    
Henderson is anything but that.  He's a_extremely skinny finesse player whose
game reminds me a lotta Ralph Sampson.  And since when is 6-10 "sky scraping?"

Truth is, Bob will for the first time have all the cards up front, with Eric
and Calbert joined by Todd Lindemann (7-1) and Brian Evans (6-7 widebody) in
addition to Pat Graham at small forward (he's really a guard) and the two
stiffs Lawson and Nover for pick-meat.  More important, he'll finally have a
team that cain rebound and, gasp!, block and/or intimidate shots!

No more 3-guard or 4-guard lineups!!

Big10 Tom  

    To back up MrT - Indiana's recruiting class was ranked high - due to
    Funderburke being a member of it.  W/O him, it dropped.
    
    No way, no way is Damon Bailey the best H.S. player of the decade -
    unless you are talking the 1890's.   That's a NO-BRAINER.  Mr. T starts
    a list of better H.S. players (The Shack comes to mind right away...)
    
    They should have a damn good team over the nexted few years.
    
    JD

    Interesting that JD sees fit to evaluate HS players based on their
    eventual performance when it comes to Indiana, but when critiquing
    Carolina all we hear about are all of Dean's HS All-Americans.
    
    :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Where's your beef?  Indiana players traditionally have been lower
    rated outta high school than the Star Heels, and ultimately the
    Star Heels end up glutting the NBA while one or two Hoosiers moon
    about here and there on the end a benches.
    
    No way in HAIL that Damon Bailey is the best H.S. player of the past
    ten years.  He's a nice little guard, not too quick not too strong,
    not the greatest shooter, but a great passer who plays a mistake-free
    floor game.
    
    Input or output, the 'Snuffer ends up the loser on the "G" string.  
    
    As for the comparo between the Hoosiers and the Blews, one need only
    point out that Bob will have Lindemann in the middle cuz the guy he
    wanted will be centermain for the team from Chapel Hell.
    
    Big10 Tom
                                                                      

    Lost in the shuffle is "coach" Steve Fisher's first monster recruiting
    class, called by Bob Gibbon as even better than last year's harvest
    by North Carolina.  At the haid a this group is Chris Webber, who 
    apparently is a monster widebody.  Then they got this kid from Texas
    who cain sky, David Thompson-style.  They let Voshon Leonard slip away
    to Minnesota, but overall had a killer recruiting class.
    
    Big10 Tom

    My beefs with JD's Thypocritical analysis, not with Bob's failure to 
    develop HS talent into NBA breadwinners.
    
    When evaluating IU HS talent he compares them with what they achieved
    post-HS.  (A correct approach.)
    
    When evaluating Dean Smith and UNC he moans about all our "HS
    All-America's, regardless of how they did post-HS.  (An incorrect
    approach.)
    
    Damon Bailey was a great HS player.  King Rice was a great HS player. 
    Michael Jordan was a great HS player.  Doesn't make them defacto
    collegiate All-Americans though ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >Bob's failure to develop HS talent into NBA breadwinners.
    
    Bob has had no such failure.  His failure has been failing to recruit
    future NBA breadwinners.  The good players he's had outta HS (Isiah,
    Wittman, et al) did quite well in the NBA.  He also got several players
    in the NBA who otherwise never woulda been there (Steve Alford for one).
    
    JD's not being hypocritical at all.  He's simply disagreeing with the
    rating given Damon OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL by many.  That's a widespread
    sentiment, especially after Damon got the ball stuffed down his throat
    several times at the McDonald's All Star game.  Damon's a decent recruit,
    one projected after being seen in person as a "future solid player."
    
    This does not put him in the class of Michael or Sam or Shack or Mr.
    Robinson.  And as such the onus cain't be put on to Bob as if he were
    in that same class.
    
    MrT

    I agree with JD's judgement of Damon.  Trouble is everytime I try to
    mention the fact that King Rice maybe wasn't the most talented kid in
    the universe I get "But he was a McDonald's All-American - Dean's
    wasting great talent." stuffed down my throat.
    
    The fact is you can't judge players out of HS and, as a result, you
    can't use the argument that "X coach gets HS All-Americans every year
    so X coach outa win more Titles."
    
    Doesn't wash, and Damon is a prime example of why.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >To back up MrT - Indiana's recruiting class was ranked high - due to
    >Funderburke being a member of it.  W/O him, it dropped.
    
    I'm sure you'd all line up on Dean's side, say, if he ran Montross off
    his team, then prevented him from attending the college of his choice. 
    Sure you would.
    
    But in this twisted sports commentary we participate in, where
    poor-mouthing your favorite team stands alone in the pantheon of
    achievements, the Funderburke fiasco has actually turned into a feather
    in Bob's cap.  By the way, the Best in the Country recruiting class for
    IU in '89 did count Fenderburke, but didn't count Cheaney.  Seems to me
    that he more than makes up the difference.  He'll probably be
    pre-season All America, despite the fact that MrT whines that this
    prototype college quick forward belongs at the off guard!  Maybe in the
    NBA, but at very few college programs, but than that's just part of the
    coin of the soft soap peddling, isn't it?
    
    >No way, no way is Damon Bailey the best H.S. player of the decade -
    
    He won the award.  The others didn't.
    
    Dan

Chris,

I don't have the time to go back through all the old sports notes so I'll leave
it at this. If you didn't call Dean's freshman class the greatest of all time
you certainly expressed great joy in the news medias assesment of it as such.

In fact I bet you used the quote from the papers several times in describing 
this class. I even made it a point last year to ask you if after 4 years this
class failed to win the big enchilada if you would consider Dean an 
underachiever ? 


Metz

    >At the haid a this group is Chris Webber, who 
    >apparently is a monster widebody.
    
    I saw him play some in one of those All Star games ESPN telecasts.  It
    was tough to make any judgements because it was very play ground.  Most
    times, the big guys would haul down a rebound and then set off down
    court with it and pull up for a 20 foot J, Webber doing this frequently. 
    All you could really see was the athleticism, and it was there in
    abundance.
    
    Travis Best looked very good to me running the offense (when the
    centers and forwards let him).  I think Tech will appreciate him
    relative to Anderson as he seems to understand there's four teammates
    on the floor with him.
    
    Dan

    >didn't count Cheaney.
    
    Yes it did.  Cheaney was accounted for in the rating of that 
    particular recruiting class.
    
    As for Funderburke, he was thrown off his HS team for behavioral
    problems, and offered himself to Bob (Bob didn't go to him) saying
    that what he needed was discipline.  Most everybody (including 
    Lawrence's HS coach, MrT, and Doug Ross) predicted he'd be off the 
    Indiana team within a season and they were right.  That's not "a 
    feather in Bob's cap," it's only a simple, plain fact that you couldn't
    bring yourself to recognize in your statement what you already knew.
    
    Big10 Tom
    

    > offered himself to Bob (Bob didn't go to him) saying that what he
    > needed was discipline.
    
    An interesting analysis, especially considering the hot water IU nearly
    found themselves in regarding charges of Bob's assistant coaches
    illegally tampering with Funderburke.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >Yes it did.  Cheaney was accounted for in the rating of that 
    >particular recruiting class.
    
    He wasn't in that the strength of that recruiting class was the 4 or 5
    top 50 high schoolers.  Cheaney was not among them.  He was a sleeper, a
    plum.
    
    Bob's failure with Funderburke notwithstanding, Cheaney more than makes
    up for it.
    
    Dan

    Again, you're wrong on both points.  Cheaney was ranked in the top
    50 - all of them were except for the stiff redhaid Lawson.  From
    memory, Cheaney was somewhere down in the high 30s or low 40s.
    
    And it's doubtful, on a team forced to play 3- or even 4-guard
    lineups that Cheaney's scoring (he's still learning how to play the
    boards and inside D) "more than makes up for" a star stud middlemain
    who cain block shots, monster the boards, and score at will from the
    inside.
    
    Big10 Tom

    >interesting analysis, especially considering the hot water IU
    >nearly found themselves in regarding charges of Bob's assistant
    >coaches illegally tampering with Funderburke.
    
    Ahhh, classic Indiana recruting scandal: A competitor school 
    levels the charge that the recruit HAD A_ILLEGAL PHONE CALL PLACED
    to him to verify whether he still intended to sign the following
    week.
    
    That's why it was a class act for Bob to force ThunderBurpe to 
    make good on his minimum academic committment to the school and
    finish his freshmain credits: A troubled kid who himself admitted
    to having everything handed him cuz a his hoops prowess needs to 
    learn that the game is a two-way street.  One cain only sigh in
    resignation that it'll be a competitor school that reaps the benefit
    from this fine lesson.
    
    Big10 Tom

    > Ahhh, classic Indiana recruting scandal: A competitor school
    > levels the charge ...
    
    Apparently IU's not the only school to get turned in by a competitor. 
    Iowa turned in Big10 bro Illinois, which then landed into the
    equivalent of the NCAA's Big House.  Haw!
    
    Bottom line #1:	Just cause somebody turned you in doesn't mean
    			you're innocent.
    
    Bottom line #2:	Indiana wanted Thunderburke *badly* cause he was
    			a big time player.  (Top 5 in USA, as his early
    			season play at IU attested to.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris,
    
    YOu totally misinterpreted me.  Dan made some ermark about Damon Bailey
    being the H.S. Player of the Decade.  I simply said there is no way in
    hell that Bailey was the player of the decade.  However, just like the
    Star Heels, Bailey is a H.S. All-American.  Just like them.   I don't
    make any differences.   Dean happens to have 12 of em all the time. 
    And does virtually nothing with them.
    
    As for the recruiting class, I read that Bob's class was devalued after
    initial reports.  Nothing more than that.  It still was a darn good one
    - but inferior to last year's haul by the Tarhells.
    
    JD

    > Dean happens to have 12 of em all the time.  And does virtually
    > nothing with them.
    
    Is it safe to assume, JD, that "virtually nothing" is your definition
    of failing to win a Title?  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >Indiana wanted Thunderburke *badly* cuz he was a top 5 player...
    
    He was the top player, period, in the ratings I saw.  And, sure,
    the Hoosiers wanted him badly.  But, ThunderBurpe approached the
    Hoosiers.  We never go after a superstar stud big guy, cuz we know
    that they'll never come to a place where the work ethic is high
    and the pay is low ($0.00 per hr.).
    
    MrT

    
    Just adding facts, go about your regular business....
    
    Ranking of IU's freshman class:
    
    1. Funderburke
    2. P. Graham
    3. G. Graham
    4. C Cheaney
    5. C. Reynolds
    6. C. Lawson
    
    The first 5 were top 50 selections....
    
    Source: Street + Smiths

    Chris,
    
    Yep, failing to win a titile, despite yearly overwhelming talent.
    
    Also, Dean and Bob have great framework right now to build a
    champeenship team.  I'd expect to see a champeenship banner hanging
    from the rafters of one of em by the end of 94.  How's that.
    
    And Dan, if Montross was kicked off of UNC's incoming class, then they
    wouldn't have had the 'greatest recruiting class' ever.  how's that.
    
    JD

    
re .342
    
>    We never go after a superstar stud big guy, cuz we know
>    that they'll never come to a place where the work ethic is high
>    and the pay is low ($0.00 per hr.).
   
    Yeah, like Moruning, Ferry, Ewing, Worthy, Lattner, Daugherty, and
    about ten dozen other big men ?
    
    Fack is T, is that Knight is inflexible and incapable of recruiting big
    men if they threw themselves at his feet.
    
    You're sounding more like Chris everyday. Stop making excuses and tell
    Da Troof !                                                     
    
    The Doc

    >You're sounding more Chris everyday...
    
    Ouch!  Main, that really hurt, Doc.  You reely go straight for 
    the 'nads.  Ok ok, I was jest baiting him a beat, but, remembering
    that Bob - wisely or otherwise - restricts his recruiting more or
    less to the core midwest region, from memory here are a couple a
    big men Bob didn't git and why:
    
    - Deon Thomas, demanded big cash, turned away by Bob, paid $80,000
      plus perks by "coach" Lou Hitsome.
    
    - Sean Kemp, told Bob that he needed "many tens of thousands" and
      was turned away only to fall into the clutches of the infamous
      scumbag (and latter-day ESPN victim-hero) Eddie Sutton. 
                 
    The stories go on.  I've long felt that Bob needs to go national as
    his competition did a long time ago.  But he's a traditionalist, and
    has a team dominated not only by kids from the neighborhood but indeed
    by Hoosier homies.  Cain't git away with that anymore, not when the
    big-time recruiters ('Snuffy, Heathcoate, Fisher, Pitino, and many
    others) recruit on your home turf.  This is especially true with the
    quality big men, who of course are as rare as hen's teef'.
    
    >quit making excuses...
    
    Again must I point out to you that in Bob's case no excuses are
    necessary, not even on "G"-string issues?  You persist in confusing
    input issues with output issues.  Sure Bob's a lousy recruiter, in
    part cuz he consciously limits himself.  But when you're on top on
    the output side nothing need be explained when you've won nearly half
    your conference Titles (we have real Titles out here, btw) and have
    been inducted into the Pantheon for winning you-know-what 3 times.
    
    re: Cap
    
    Thank you thank you, but it's a given that factual reality won't make
    a dent in our egomaniacal friend's armor-plated tongue.  Funny, but
    it's hard to imagine either Graham bro being that highly rated.  I
    like them both (especially Gregg), but both have limitations.  Pat's
    got a SEVERE case of WMD, but is gutsy and now that he's found his
    shot again will really help.  Gregg has never been a good J-shooter,
    a real failing for a_off guard.  He has all the physical talents, 
    though, he's very explosive off the floor.  I saw him put down a
    slam in the faces of Minnesota's two big guys and they looked 
    helpless in 1-on-2.
    
    Calbert needs to continue improving his floor game.  His defense and
    rebounding cain be awful at times, but Bob's unrelenting instruction
    has gotten him nearly consistent... so long as things are going ok
    with the whole team.  He cain disappear on the defensive end when
    things've gone awry for the squad, leaving only out-of-position Eric
    to lead.
    
    Big10 Tom 

    The Big10 unveiled its new logo yesterday.  Purty slick, it's a
    block lettered BIG TEN... with the number "11" delineated in the
    background bracketing the "E."  
    
    It was designed by a grad student in fine arts and the University
    a Northern Illinois, a MidContinent Conference.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Granted I don't have my PhD in mafematics, but could someone please
    explain to me (either verbally or via some presumably complex equation)
    the significance of the "TEN" in "BIG TEN", given that there's eleven
    (11) teams in the conference.
    
    Thankee.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    The Big 11 has a 10 in it for the same reasons the Lakers play nowhere
    a lake, and the Utah team plays in the jazz capitol of the world.
    
    Dickstah
    
    P.S.  The Red Sox don't wear red socks either, just red stirrups.
    

>    Big10 Tom

Shouldn't that be BIG TEN Tom?

It's interesting the it's blue and white, the Penn State colors. And my
first impression was to warn Northwestern to watch out. Maybe the big
plan is to edge them out and go back to a real 10 team conference.

TTom

        
> It's interesting the it's blue and white, the Penn State colors. And my
> first impression was to warn Northwestern to watch out. Maybe the big
> plan is to edge them out and go back to a real 10 team conference.
    
    I really see no good reason to continue this myth that Northwestern
    is actually a part of the Big Ten.  At this point, I think they 
    probably qualify under MrT's criteria as one of them moochy-mooch 
    welfare-state schools...
    
    glenn
    

    Yea, that's the ticket, TTom.  There's only enough physical space for
    TEN teams, but thanks to good ole virtual memory a very large number of
    teams could be added without changing the conference name!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Don't think that Northwestern would be a-bounced from the Big Ten.
    It is a vital asset to the Big Ten academically. I think it is head and
    shoulders above the rest of the Big Ten academically (with the
    exception of Michigan overall  and Purdue in some specialized areas).
    
    Just a couple of observations. I'm not overly familiar with the Big
    ten, only having been geographically close to some of the schools (ND)
    and knowing a bunch of people who went to some of the state schools
    out there.  Perhaps someone a little closer to the conf (MrT ?) could
    expand.
    
    MikeL
    

    T isn't that close to the Big 10 - he just stays within rollerblade
    striking distance, if you know what I mean ....

    >I think it is head and shoulders above the rest of Big Ten
    >academically
    
    Here we go again.  Harking back to Dan's caste bilge... "a place
    to meet future business associates" ... "find a wife" ... and so
    forth.  
    
    Fact is, small private colleges, with major exceptions such as 
    MIT, Caltech, Carnegie-Mellon, pedal exclusivity more than academic
    excellence, with people slavering over as gene-pool schools.  The
    University of Minnesota alone could swallow all of NU into its 
    School of Engineering.
    
    Northwestern and other schools like it serve primarily as a place
    for rich kids to go and get their MBAs and law degrees.  Who needs
    'em?  Wisconsin, for instance, is a much heavier academic environment
    overall.  
    
    If NU left the Big10 they wouldn't be missed, especially entering an
    era where science and engineering have taken a position of predominant
    importance.
    
    Big10 Tom 

    Northwestern has one of the top 10 rated business schools in the
    country, outstanding legal and medical schools, and a very well
    regarded school of engineering.  I believe that their journalism
    program is one of the top 10 in the country, along with an outstanding
    drama department and strong liberal arts programs.  They do not have an
    agriculture program, nor a home economics program - both of which were
    listed at Purdue as required departments for a land grant university
    when I was attending there.  I don't remember there being a major
    available in Phys Ed, either.  (I grew up within 10 miles of Northwestern, 
    did some high school programs there, and have investigated it as a 
    potential school for my son.)
    
    I don't believe that you will see Northwestern leave the Big Ten, in
    spite of their perenniel underdog status in the major team sports.  To
    the best of my knowledge, which includes personal friendship with
    alumni recruiters/interviewers for the university, they do "needs
    blind" admission, and have very few students who are unable to attend
    for financial reasons -- ie, they have a great financial aid endowment
    available to put together packages for their students.  They emphasize
    academic performance and leadership potential as their criteria for
    admittance - in that order.  Academics come first there, and it's an
    example that I wish more schools would follow.
    
    The Big Ten is about more than sports, although that's all that we ever
    hear about in the press.  Northwestern more than carries its weight in
    the academic, research, and administrative areas that constitute the
    other venues of conference interest.
    
    A&W

    Be that as it may, the statement was thatNU is head and shoulders
    ave the rest of the Bigbovg10 academically, which is a_ignorant 
    statement.  In a recent magazine ranking (and granted they're 
    flawed) the other 9 Big10 schools were plastered all over the top
    listings in various areas - some more so than NU.  
    
    It's an old saw that private schools are automatically better, a
    natural reaction to the attractiveness of the exclusivity involved.
    As r "needs blind" admission, wanna bet whetNU's demographics
    blow out those of the 9 state schools?  
    
    Fact is that top state schools compare faorably.  The Big10 happens
    to have a fairlheavy lineup of fine state schools.  Buoth there are
    many others (Berkeley, Penn State,arolina, UCLA, Washington, etc.)
    
    It's simple east coast provincialism that brings out this crap that
    thtoprivate schools blow out the top state schools. Out there,
    maybe, but not west of tppalachians. 
    I'm not putting down NU.  I'm just pointing out some convenient 
    myths and the reasons for them.   Private schools are a collection
    of core departments devoid of the ancillary departments/schools
    that stateuniversities are chartered to run.  If one's talking
    academic excellence, the core dept./schools of the two groups is
    the only fair comparison.
    
    MrT

Academic ratings notwithstanding, I see no reason why Northwestern can't
be competitive in major athletics.

Duke does it. Stanford does it. Hell, Rice looked good lasted year in
football.

Maybe it's part of the "Northwestern Is Better" mystique to have lousy
basketball and football teams. To that extent, Northwestern lowers the
prestige of the BIG T1E1N.

TTom

    The anti-public college and university chauvinism is killing the
    University of Massachusetts and the state college system around here. 
    The attitude is and always has been "why have a public college and
    university system when we have the greatest private colleges and
    universities in the world?"  Making matters even worse is that
    virtually no one in state government is a product of our state schools. 
    The ones who aren't part of the Boston College old-boy network (or even
    better, Triple Eagles, those who went to Boston College High School,
    then Boston College then Boston College Law School) are from the
    Kennedy School of Government at Harvard.  We also have John Silber,
    President of Boston University, lobbying to keep certain programs out
    of the state system because they'll compete with his programs at BU.
    
    Of course, this state is such a f**ked up mess right now that maybe it
    needs its graduates of state colleges and universities to straighten it
    out.
    
    John
        

    
    Northwestern's academic quality had absolutely nothing to do with my
    statements.  They simply come nowhere near a minimal standard of
    competition on the gridiron or on the hardcourt, and as was 
    suggested, I think they almost enjoy that fact.  If they want to 
    remain in the alliance in areas where they're competitive, both 
    academically and athletically, I would have no problem with that.  
    But at their near 1-AA status in both these major revenue sports, 
    their participation is a joke.  I don't expect that fact to be 
    recognized by the sports media if this subject ever seriously comes 
    up within the Big Ten, though.  Rather, I'm sure we'll be hearing 
    the usual money-first, greed-in-sports angle even when it doesn't 
    apply here.  
    
    glenn
    

    It's much easier for a private school to suceed at hoops than
    football cuz a the size of grid squads.  Apart from SoCal and
    Notre Dame, I'd guess Stanford does about the best, and they're 
    seldom at the upper echelon of the Pac10 (do they *really* only 
    care about the Cal game?).  I'm not sure whether Pitt is public
    or private.
    
    A real disappointment has been Foster's effort with the Mildcats.
    He seemed to have them positioned to break through, then, year
    before last, everybody transferred out for some unknown reason.
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    

It's too bad the Big 10 couldn't buy out Northwestern to get them to leave
the Big 10.   A swap out with Penn State would have made the most sense...
Continue to give NW a cut of the revenues, but let them seek a more
competitive league.   

    Pitt is a public school.  Relatively cheap tuition for in-staters.  
    
    Isn't Clemson a private school?  If so, there's one for your list, T.
    
    	--dan'l

    Yeah, Dan'l, but Clemson's special: They cheat like crazy.
    
    MrT

I can't for the life of me figure out why, but for some reason
Carnegie-Mellon University always makes me think of Busty Heart.....

    >Here we go again.  Harking back to Dan's caste bilge...
    
    There was no "caste bilge" in any of my notes.  And, as a matter of
    fact, when MrT made an issue implying racial inequity at the superior
    private schools relative to the state school that he was promoting, I
    went and looked it up.  In fact, he was dead wrong.
    
    People have to determine this issue for themselves.  If you're
    interested talk to educational counselors, go to the library or
    bookstore and find books which discuss programs offered at each, talk
    to heads of businesses and find out where they get the best people
    from.  Try to determine which schools accept the brightest students,
    which have the lowest student-teacher ratios.
    
    After examining all these factors, and certainly more, the answers
    become very clear.  Nothing to do with race, nothing to do with caste,
    nothing to do with gene-pool.  Everything to do with quality of
    education, quality of student and the future.
    
    Dan

    >I went and looked it up.  In fact, he was dead wrong.
    
    Total bull.  Another Dan-fib.  You never submitted any sources
    on that one.  Fact is, beyond the programs to bring in the tokens,
    private schools are populated by whiter richers students.  Suggestion
    otherwise is total unmitigated bullshit.  Of course, in the technical
    schools (like Stanford) most of the grad students seem to be oriental,
    but the same holds in the public grad schools.  :^)
    
    And no, no chip on my shoulder, just clearing up the ridiculous
    statement about NU being "head and shoulders" above the rest of
    the conference.

    >Total bull.  Another Dan-fib.  You never submitted any sources
    >on that one.  Fact is, beyond the programs to bring in the tokens,
    >private schools are populated by whiter richers students.
    
    It's so nice to see you make something like this up.
    
    THere are no disclaimers about these alleged "token programs", but I
    invite anyone who is interested in the issue to troop on down to a book
    store, and just browse through college and/or grad school catalogs. 
    They break down minority students for you there, and you'll see the
    truth for yourself.
    
    It certainly wasn't in 15.367.
    
    Dan

    The 'gene pool' argument has some merit, when you consider that alums
    of the big-money private schools (and big-time donors, no doubt) are
    virtually guaranteed assurance their son/daughter will be granted
    admission, regardless of qualification.  
    
    The slot this person takes will no doubt take away a position of a more
    qualified applicant.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Dan and MrT:

		The Ali-Norton of SPORTS


8^)

    >After examining all these factors, and certainly more, the answers
    >become very clear.
    
    Only if you compare the top private schools to all state schools.
    If you compared top vs. top, the answer, of course, wouldn't be so
    clear at all.  And if you compared all vs. all, the private schools
    would lose out very badly, for the majority of pud schools in this
    country are private schools, the ones you never hear about, from 
    Air or anybody else.  This comparison would be even starker if one
    looked at out-of-state applicant criteria.  Ftm, if you look at 
    out-of-state tuitions of the better state schools they look a helluva
    lot like the better private schools.
    
    MrT
    

    >Dan and MrT:
    >
    >		The Ali-Norton of SPORTS
    
    Good one, Frankie.  Air of course would play the role of Ken Norton,
    the main who abstained from sex months prior to a fight to get psyched
    up, the main who put form over function... the main who led with his 
    chin.
    
    This is why I use the p_name Mandingo.  To honor Air, for Ken played
    the rebellious slave in that fine but forgotten work a art.
    
    MrT 

    >The 'gene pool' argument has some merit, when you consider that alums
    >of the big-money private schools (and big-time donors, no doubt) are
    >virtually guaranteed assurance their son/daughter will be granted
    >admission, regardless of qualification.  
    
    When you consider that the same is true of virtually any school, the
    'gene pool' argument has no merit.
    
    BTW, the Kellogg School, Northwestern's b-school, is again the top
    rated business school in the country from Business Week's annual
    survey.  Other reports have it very high as well (some first), and it
    easily outdistances the rest of the Big 10, though Michigan puts in a
    strong showing, and Indiana gets a mention here or there.
    
    There is no need to support the argument that Northwestern doesn't
    compete athletically with the rest of the conference, and this does
    support the non-T arguments about its academics.
    
    Dan

    > When you consider that the same is true of virtually any school,
    > the 'gene pool' argument has no merit.
    
    If you're right (and you very well may be) I'd agree with you, *for the
    purposes of this discussion*.  (i.e. private vs. public schools)
    
    In the larger sense I find the concept of Muffy and Biff getting into
    'Name your Big Time School' cause of mommy and daddy's bucks a
    sickening thing indeed.
    
    What makes it worse at a private school is that *usually* it's harder
    to get admitted to these schools but, once you're in, a very high
    number graduate.  Other schools (Georgia Tech is one) will admit alot
    of people, but actually getting your degree ('specially engineering) is
    *extremely* difficult.  (Usually takes 5 years @ Tech.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Most schools have engineering programs that last 5 years.
    
    Clemson is a state school.
    
    John

>Dan and MrT:
>		The Ali-Norton of SPORTS

That would be Ali McGraw and Ed Norton, right?

    >If you compared top vs. top, the answer, of course, wouldn't be so
    >clear at all.
    
    I was speaking of comparing the top to the top.  The answers from the
    assembled data are very clear.
    
    Dan

    That's not so at all, Ken.  Half the names on the various lists 
    are state universities.  Also, analyses of entrants into the 
    prestige grad programs show that grads of the better state 
    schools fare very well.  So much for your theory that the elites
    predominately come from private ones.  
    
    MrT

    The Minnesota Golden Gophers' recruiting class ended up ranked
    9th in the nation thanx to the recruitment a 6-6 Voshon Lenard
    outta De-troit.  Michigan's class is ranked No. 1 in the nation.
    Indiana may be shopping for another big main now that the under-
    talented redhaid Crhis Lawson has gone to Vandy.  One wonders 
    where Purdue's class is ranked having recruited Glen Robinson,
    who may turn out to be the best player of the whole group.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Gophers' class was ranked 19th by Future Stars, a scouting service
    out of Iowa.  Small forward Voshon Leonard was top10, Minnesota
    also got a big guard and long range shooter outta Martinsville
    Indiana (forget his name).  Bob rues not having gone after him, but 
    there is no room for another guard on his squad.  The Golden Goofs
    tapped another top20 type in Jayson Walton, a jumping jack outta
    Dallas.
    
    Nuclear widebody stud and Purdue recruit Glenn Robinson failed to
    score well enough on his SATs to play this year, he'll go Prop 48
    or whatever it is now.  To a_Indiana fan this ain't necessarily the
    most heartbreaking news...
    
    Big   Big10 Tom

    This note is just to extend, from the Big10 corner, our heartfelt
    thanks to those ACC men who participated in the recent co-op 
    victory in the Snuffy Smif' debate.
    
    Kudos, gents!
    
    Big10 Tom

    "It would be great to coach like Bob Knight at Indiana and play nothing
     but man-to-man - as long as you can be as sure as he is that you'll
     have the athletes to do it year in and year out."
    
    - Pat Kennedy, hoops coach of the ACC's Florida State Seminoles 

>
>    "It would be great to coach like Bob Knight at Indiana and play nothing
>     but man-to-man - as long as you can be as sure as he is that you'll
>     have the athletes to do it year in and year out."
>    
>    - Pat Kennedy, hoops coach of the ACC's Florida State Seminoles 


Sounds like another ACC Coach working up to have a reason for a_excellent
loss......

Hold on there, Saw.

There is one team in the ACC that reveres and practices the art of the
excellent loss and that team is the No Carolina Tar Heels. It has taken
that program 30+ years to perfect it and they are not about to let anyone
else get in on that plan without a fight.

Up with excellent losses! Down with Champeenship type end of season
peaks! Go Slasher!

TTom

 It doesn't take an abundance of God-given basketball *talent* to play
 man-to-man defense.
 
 On the contrary, man-to-man is a very simple defense to play on the
 chalkboard.    What it takes on the court are extremely well-conditioned
 and well-coached players.   Knight's players have *rarely* ever lacked
 those characteristics.
 
 Conditioning and discipline are separate from talent.   Always have been. 
 Mark Aguirre at DePaul was a prime example of this simple but elegant
 truth.
 
 Bob Hunt

    > It doesn't take an abundance of God-given basketball *talent* to play 
    > man-to-man defense.
    
    Apparently you're in direct disagreement with Pat Kennedy (a pretty
    fair coach BTW) but heck, ya know more than a HoFer so why should we be
    surprised?
    
    I realize this probably belongs in the ACC note, but what they hey.
    Here's FSU's record against ACC schools:
    
    			W	L
    		       ---     ---
    Wake Forest		1	1
    Georgia Tech       15	9
    Maryland		0	0
    Virginia		0	0
    Duke		0	1
    NC State		2	3
    Clemson		5	6
    North Carolina	1      11
    

 �                -< So much for Bob's alleged talent woes ... >-
 �
 �   "It would be great to coach like Bob Knight at Indiana and play nothing
 �    but man-to-man - as long as you can be as sure as he is that you'll
 �    have the athletes to do it year in and year out."
 �
 �   - Pat Kennedy, hoops coach of the ACC's Florida State Seminoles 
  
 Show me where Pat Kennedy said that Knight has all the talent he needs to
 play a man-to-man defense each year.    I see the word "athletes" but I
 don't see the word "talent" or "talented" anywhere.
 
 Oh, there it is ... It's in *your* expert interpretation of his remarks. 
 Oh, good, that clears that little mystery up.
 
 I repeat ... Man-to-man defenses can be played quite expertly by less
 talented athletes who are in great shape both physically and mentally.  I
 think the 1984 Indiana upset victory over North Carolina in the East
 Region Semis illustrates that point rather nicely, wouldn't you agree ???
 
 Bob Hunt

>           -< All the guts in the world won't make up for slow feet >-

And all the regular season victories won't make up for no guts in the
champheenship.

TTom

�Go Slasher!

�TTom

	Why thanky TTom.  You go too.  Go straight to...

    Making a distinction between "talent" and "athletes" has gotta be the
    grossest example of splitting hairs I've ever heard.  THEY'RE ONE
    AND THE SAME THING.
    
    I'll grant you that some athletes don't play man 'D' very well because
    they lack stamina and work ethic, but the fact remains that you CANNOT
    play man-to-man defense unless you possess the necessary foot speed and
    quickness.  It's a prerequisite for the job, plain and simple.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>
>    Making a distinction between "talent" and "athletes" has gotta be the
>    grossest example of splitting hairs I've ever heard.  THEY'RE ONE
>    AND THE SAME THING.


NOT!


I'll give you two examples:  Athlete A posesses skill and can do magic
with a round ball.  Athlete B has a modicum of skill, one giant heart full
of enthusiasm and willingness to work, and works his tailbone off.

Both may excel, but one does so on grit and determination, and the other
on the whim of his brain....

Not the same thing at all....

'Saw

    Chris -
    
    You are WAY wrong on thinking 'talent' and 'athlete' are the same
    thing.
    
    Talent can only take you so far.  Granted in *some* cases, talent can
    take one to the pinnacle.  However, not all athletes are talented.  
    That's why some folks have to work and work and work to get anywhere on
    the athletic field (field used generically.....)
    
    You can make up for foot speed in many ways - cheating, anticipating.
    Dan Dakich (SP?) didn't have great foot speed, now did he, but he sure
    as heck shackled one Mr. Air Snub the Prez Jordan, now didn't he.
    
    Also, the quote that you are getting 'woodied' about - you could change
    "Bob Knight" and put in most coaches from big, successful hoops
    programs.   They do get athletes every year.  Some get more talented
    athletes than others (which is why you see recruiting classes rated).
    
    If talent and athlete were the same, then everyone would be even, no?
    
    I'll tell ya one thing, in my personal experience, there was a ton of
    difference between walk-on athletes and talented scholarship
    athletes...
    
    JD 

 Had enough yet, Soup ???
 
 My high school baseball coach had a sign in the locker room that read ...
 
 	"Talent Without Hustle Is Nothing,
 	 Hustle Without Talent Is Something,
 	 Hustle With Talent Is Everything."
 
 For the record, Pat Kennedy is right.  Indiana teams are never as bereft
 of raw talent as our beloved MrT would like to have us believe.   But
 there is also little doubt that each of Knight's *THREE* titlists were
 most definitely *not* the most talented teams in the country that year.  
 
 Their hustle and discipline carried them over the top.
 
 Bob Hunt

    > For the record, Pat Kennedy is right.  Indiana teams are never as bereft
    > of raw talent as our beloved MrT would like to have us believe.   
    
    Thank you, oh thank you (!!!) for making my point for me.  This fact,
    so beautifully stated by you, was my singular motivation for posting
    the quote in the first place.  Please feel free to return to your
    talent vs. athlete rathole though.
    
    > But there is also little doubt that each of Knight's *THREE* titlists 
    > were most definitely *not* the most talented teams in the country that 
    > year.  
    
    Come back?  Bob's '76 undefeated team is generally regarded as the best 
    collegiate basketball team of All-Time.  His '81 team was loaded to the 
    gills in talent as well, as even MorT admits.  Only his '87 team can 
    honestly be considered overachievers.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    ACChris has given us the essence of Dean Smith the man and the
    choker in his attempt to put NC in a positive light.
    
    >I realize this probably belongs in the ACC note, but what they hey.
    >Here's FSU's record against ACC schools:
    
    >			W	L
    		       ---     ---
    >Wake Forest	1	1
    >Georgia Tech       15	9
    >Maryland		0	0
    >Virginia		0	0
    >Duke		0	1
    >NC State		2	3
    >Clemson		5	6
    >North Carolina	1      11
    
    An analysis of the 1-11 record shows the following.  NC beat Fla. St. 
    11 times during the regular season and lost to them only once...
    
    But it was during the Final Four and Carolina was heavily favored to
    win....(1972)
    
    At least Dean is consistent....
    
    Cap

As usual, Cap has shed light into the darkened corners of the 
UNC Propaganda room.

Just like Jimmy "I have sinned (sob sob) against God" Swaggart getting 
arrested again, so too has Dean been effectively shown to be the choker
that he is.....


'Saw

    IU in 76 was the best 'TEAM' in the country but an arguement could be
    made that they were not the most talented individually.
    
    UCLA with Kermit washington, Marques Johnson, Andre McCarter, David
    Greenwood and Ray Townsend were very talented individually(but they
    were coached by Gene Bartow not Wooden).  Both Rutgers and Michigan 
    were very talented as well.
    
    Almost every expert does agree though that this team was the result of
    one of the best coaching jobs in the history of the NCAA's, as it
    resulted in perfection....
    
    Cap

 �   Thank you, oh thank you (!!!) for making my point for me.  
 
 You're welcome.   Yet another in a long chain of so-called "points" that
 you've tried to make only to fatally fling yourself off the cliff of
 reason instead.   I gotta admit that I'm kinda getting a little fatigued
 bailing you out all the time.   Perhaps you might wanna try flying it solo
 nexted time ???    Be sure and buckle your seat belt, please.
 
 �   Come back?  Bob's '76 undefeated team is generally regarded as the best 
 �   collegiate basketball team of All-Time.  His '81 team was loaded to the 
 �   gills in talent as well, as even MorT admits.  Only his '87 team can 
 �   honestly be considered overachievers.
  
 The 1976 Indiana team was indeed one of the all-time great college
 basketball teams ... no doubt about it.   TEAM.  T-E-A-M.  TEAM.   Much
 much *MUCH* greater than the sum of its individual parts.   Not one
 Hoosier from that great team went on to star in the NBA, however.   Quinn
 Buckner and Kent Benson were career journeymen in the pros.
 
 The 1981 Hoosiers had Isiah Thomas and a supporting cast.   Besides
 Thomas, only Randy Wittman stuck around in the NBA for very long.   It is
 possible that Landon Turner might have had a good NBA career had he not
 had his accident.
 
 The 1976 Tar Heels had Walter Davis and Phil Ford.   The 1981 Tar Heels
 had James Worthy and Sam Perkins.    Each were (or still are) top drawer
 stars in the NBA.
 
 I'll stand by my earlier statement ... Knight's three NCAA champs
 maximized their talent with their hustle, discipline and team play.  
 Snuff's one star-studded NCAA champ had an opposing player blow a pass.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Hey, everyone *knows* IU hgets hoop talent.  No doubt about it.  Cept
    it aint in the Tarhells(tm) class.  Wanna take a gander at those 1981
    starting lineups again....
    
    Knight's first team was indeed a very good hoop team.  No doubt about
    it.  Also a perfect team.  
    
    But the talent on that team was/is equal to a typical Snuffer squad.
    How many first rounders did snuffer have this year?  How many titles
    did he bring home?  (Hint, begins with a "Z" and rhymes with "hero"
    
    So you made a point - and even if it is a 'win' - as you claim, it
    still shows that Bob has produced 3 *times* the amount of chameenships
    (in less time, BTW) with his *talent* then the snuffer has.  So, you
    *proved* once again who the bested coach is (Hint, begins with "K" and 
    rhymes with a word used to describe Snuffer's title count - "Slight")
    
    JD

    > Yet another in a long chain of so-called "points" that you've tried
    > to make only to fatally fling yourself off the cliff of reason
    > instead.
    
    The only mistake I made was to even acknowledge the stupid athlete vs.
    talent rathole, cause it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue at
    hand.  Pat Kennedy sez BobKnight consistently gets the necessary
    athletes to play man-to-man, and he (Kennedy) doesn't.  MrT is constantly 
    moaning about IU's lack of athleticism.  Period.  End of discussion.  
    If you don't agree with Kennedy, fine.  Like I said, you already know more
    than a HoFer, so this is small-time stuff ...
    
    
    re: Cap
    
    Who says I was trying to paint UNC in a positive light?  I knew
    full-well somebody would point out the 1 'L' was in the Final 4.
    For the record, FSU lost by a mere 5 points to a thoroughly loaded
    UCLA team which was led by Bill Walton. 
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 �   >North Carolina	1      11
 �   
 �   An analysis of the 1-11 record shows the following.  NC beat Fla. St. 
 �   11 times during the regular season and lost to them only once...
 �   
 �   But it was during the Final Four and Carolina was heavily favored to
 �   win....(1972)
 
 Ouch, that hurts just to read it.   Cap, that is positively deadly.   You
 are an exquisitely gifted SPORTS assassin.   James Bond himself could not
 have killed him any sweeter than that.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Clear differentiation between talent and athleticism, in terms a hoops,
    using salient examples from these parts:
    
    1) Scott May (great shooter, tough D, good footwork boxing on boards
       but no jump and morbidly slow-footed)
    
    2) Scott Skiles (talent galore, but small and not expecially quick, best
       ball handler outta Hoosierland since Larry)
    
    3) Steve Alford (allegedly 6-2, allegedly 180 lbs, again morbidly slow,
       no jump, not much strength, but could shoot and pass very well, also
       learned how to drive to hoop)
    
    It's ironic that Pat Kennedy's comment would be used, for going into
    the NCAAs last year every analyst in the world predicted doom for IU in
    against Florida State cuz FSU was loaded with fleet-footed musclebound
    jumping jacks.
    
    They had athleticism all over Indiana.  Everybody said this for two
    weeks leading up to the game.  But, after soaring out to an 18 point 
    lead with mindblowing leaps, slams, whirlybird drives, and steals...
    Indiana wore them down and beat them by 16 or so with superior talent
    (i.e., dribbling, passing, shooting, boxing out, moving without the 
    ball, and so on).
    
    So Pat Kennedy's the last guy in the country to talk about needing 
    athletes to win.
    
    Also, I never said Indiana has no talent, but I'm persistently accused
    of having said that.  Again, show me a major conference champion who 
    started a 6-2 white guy ex-backup guard at power forward.  Hillman's
    role was unprecedented at that level and it happened cuz Indiana usually
    has big holes in its lineup.
    
    Take Matt Nover, for instance.  PLEASE.  Here's a guy who has no biz
    in big-time hoops from talent standpoint, not to mention the fack that 
    he's a forward by size and training, and he started at center all last
    year for Indiana.  Against good teams he'd usually fold up like a cheap
    suit and be replaced by forward Eric Anderson in the middle, thus forcing
    Indiana into a 3-guard offense.  This happened all last year.
    
    Show me a single squad from the all-talent programs (SyrExcuse, Gougetown,
    Star Hells, Zona, Runnin' Rabble, Michigan, etc.) where almost every year
    they have no one to play a key position.
    
    I could go on, but the facks are there and you must recognize them, at
    least, if not the truth a the matter.
    
    Big10 Tom
    

    Bad news on the Hoosier Hoops front: F/G Pat Graham is down for
    4-6 weeks with a broken bone in his foot.  Earlier this summer
    Damon developed a stress fracture caused by athlete's foot, which
    is apparently healed but these things have a way of coming back
    sometimes.  Less publicized but most worrisome of all is Eric
    Anderson's ongoing battle with lower back troubles, but he's been
    able to play in pain so far...
    
    Over at Illinois, F Andy Kaufmann, probably the Illini's second best
    player, and definitely their best offensive player, is out for the
    year for academic woes.
    
    Voshon Lenard, Minnesota's most touted recruit since Clem Haskins
    took over, is blowing minds in workouts.  There's already talk that
    this 6-6 jumping jack will go pro after two years.  We'll see.
    
    Big10 Tom

�Earlier this summer
�    Damon developed a stress fracture caused by athlete's foot, 
    
    What did he do?  Scratch it too hard?

    IU lands prep star
    
       TERRE HAUTE, Ind. - Steve Hart, a senior guard at Terre Haute South
    High School, said he will sign a basketball letter of intent next month
    with Indiana University.  Hart, who averaged 13.6 points a game and
    helped South to the state tourney Final Four last spring, said he
    picked the Hoosiers over Indiana State.
    
     - Wildcat

    From December Issue of SPORT magazine.
    
    NO STARS FOR KNIGHT
    
         Bobby Knight was enshrined in the Basketball Hall of Fame after
    winning three NCAA titles at Indiana, but you can't give him any medals
    for producing NBA stars.  Only one, Isiah Thomas, has had an impact in
    the pros.  North Carolina's Dean Smith, on the other hand, can claim
    some credit for Michael Jordan, James Worthy and Brad Daugherty.
    
         Is there something wrong with Knight's coaching?  Does he ruin his
    players?  The short answer is "No."
    
         According to Marty Blake, head scout for the NBA, Bobby Knight
    recruits good--not great--players who will fit into his system.  Smith
    however, starts out with the very best talent available.  In other
    words, Knight does a lot with the guys he gets.
    
         "Bobby Knight doesn't recruit players with the idea of developing
    them into NBA stars," says Blake.  "He just wants role players to help
    him win games at Indiana.  It's not his job to supply us with NBA
    talent."
    
    Your welcome MrT :-)
    
     - Wildcat
    
    P.S. - The same issue of SPORT had this to say of Rick Pitino.
    
     - "Rick Pitino, perhaps the finest basketball coach on earth, ..."
    
    	BRAVO PITINO!

 >   P.S. - The same issue of SPORT had this to say of Rick Pitino.
 >   
 >    - "Rick Pitino, perhaps the finest basketball coach on earth, ..."
    
       I get the feeling you're leaving something out here. Maybe the rest
    of a sentence or paragraph. Couldn't begin with 'but' now could it?
                                       Denny  ;^)

    >> I get the feeling you're leaving something out here.  Maybe the rest
    >> of a sentence or paragraph.  Couldn't begin with 'but' now could it?
    
    C'mon now Denny!  How could you think that of ole Wildcat?  I
    understand that there may be some unscrupulous noters in SPORTS that
    have tried to pull the wool over many an eye in the past, but not the
    'Cat!
    
    'Cause I don't want to develop a Mr(T)arnished SPORTS reputation, here is
    the missing text.
    
    Story was relating the differences between Pitino and his NY
    background, and the current crop of 'Cats.
    
    "Rick Pitino, perhaps the finest basketball coach on earth, is as
    N'Yawk as a $35 cab fare.  John Pelphrey, Deron Feldhaus and Richie
    Farmer are kids from Eastern Kentucky towns not likely to even have
    cabs.  Somehow, they've meshed at the University of Kentucky--along
    with a couple of big-city talents, New York power forward Jamal
    Mashburn and Indianapolis point guard Sean Woods--to make the Wildcats
    leading candidates to be the success saga of this college basketball
    season."
    
    HTH's
    
     - Wildcat 

    One a the greatest disappointments I ever experieced was the other
    day in the infamous keeling fields a 17.  
    
    Here we have a Big10 main, Doug Ross, submitting a detailed forecast
    a the Almost Close Conference.  Fine.  But, only last year he was
    seen barking like a dog singing vile praises for Snuffy Smif'.  He
    told me he humiliated himself like that willingly cuz ACCrook had 
    agreed to cut him in on that crooked contest such that he'd git tix
    for the sold-out (pun intended) Almost Close redundantly meaningless
    money-grubbing spectacle in Charlotte.
    
    But, only months later, he's crossed the line.  Doug Ross is clearly
    no longer a Big10 main.  He analyzes and writes reports on the ACC
    and he's MIA on the Big10 - The All-Time Greatest Conference.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    See, Denny, you wuz right!  Pitino is as "N'Yawk as a $35 cab fare".  
    The attentive reader would have immediately seen the connotation 
    for "finest" to mean "in actuality, Big Apple-overhyped".  Very
    perceptive, sir!    
    
    glenn
    

    Well I must be in a particularly generous mood today.  First I dig up
    recruiting info for Mildcat (tm), now for MrT.
    
    The following represents IU's early commitments so far.
    
    Enjoy,
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    
WILLIAM LIEBERMAN	5-8, 175, Greenwich, CT (North)

o	A classic overachiever who gets it done with hard work.  He can't
	run or jump and he's certainly not quick.  Voted 'Most Cerebral'
	at under 17 AAU's.


JOHN WALTERS		6-10, 135, Nashua, NH  (Central)

o	Future is all ahead of this kid.  Hard worker whose projected
	to grow several more inches.  Early commitment to Indiana.  Not 
	quick, fast, or a leaper, but should fit in well in Bob Knight's
	system.  (Five Star)
	

KYLE NEVE		6-4, 310, Cincinnati, OH (Moeller)

o	Hard working rebounder who pulled down close to 20 board per
	game at the prestigious Under 12 AAU's.  Hasn't grown much since 
	then, but should make an impact wherever he goes!  Lacks quickness
	and is quite slow, but makes up for it with smarts!
    

JOHN WALTERS		6-10, 135, Nashua, NH  (Central)

    	Yikes this kid will make Manute Bol look like a bodybuilder!

    True /Don, but remember: Manute Bol has gone onto a fairly profitable
    NBA career.  I suspect Walters will end up CBA-bound like most Knight
    products ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    re .412, .413:
    
    There is no Central High in Nashua, just one public high school (Nashua
    High) and a Catholic high school (Bishop Guertin).   However there is a
    Central High in nearby Manchester, perhaps that's what the publication
    meant...
    
    
    py                                               

    Yup, that must be it py.  Tanks.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    BTW, neither Lieberman, Walters, or Neve are listed in my Poop Sheet's
    list of the top *200* HS prospects in the USA.
    
    Hate to admit it, but it appears I've been wrong.  Bob really *does* do
    more with less.  :^(
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I saw the words "slow", "can't jump", "not quick", "hard working" all
    over that Indiana recruiting report.  Sounds like the typical BobKnight
    team, they should fit right in.
    
    After all, isn't what coaching (as opposed to recruiting) is all about
    - getting more out of your players.
    
    Commander Scott

    Right Commander.  Couldn't agree more.  I predict Bob will get
    *maximum* mileage outa that bunch.
    
    Ya know, Dean's warned me (and those like me) in the past about not
    paying any attention to those recruiting ratings, and the more I think
    about it, the more I think he's right.  I wish we'd_a signed one of 'em
    but no, Dean only sticks with the top-notch studly types, whilst Poor 
    Bob gets the leftovers.
    
    Oh well,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

	re .412

	Funny stuff, Chris.  And nicely done.  Some people *APPEAR* to have
	believed it.

	Any word on how Montross is looking in pre-season?  He may be a 
	traitor to the true cause :^), but I'm still curious.

tom

    I'm not saying anything in here teal rap master D. Benedict Ross,
    Purdue main, musters a little interest in his home Conference and
    note...
    
    Big10 Tom

>  <<< Note 15.421 by ANGLIN::SHAUGHNESSY "Plato,Homer,Voltaire,BobKnight" >>>
>                             -< Sound a Silence >-
>
>   I'm not saying anything in here teal rap master D. Benedict Ross,
>   Purdue main, musters a little interest in his home Conference and
>   note...

Okay, MrT... you try moving to ACC land and get any info on the Big 10.

Here's the pre-pre-preseason prediction for the Big 10:

1) Indiana 	- Anything less than second place in the conference and
		  a Great 8 NCAA finish will mean Bob underachieved.  Cal
		  Cheaney is exceptional.   Everyone else will play their
		  assigned roles.   If Damon Bailey gets even a little
		  bit better, and frosh widebody stud Henderson lives up
		  to expectations, this team should be a test for Duke for
		  the title.   Yes, they are lacking in size and big athletes,
		  but that's Bob's fault.


2) Ohio State   - They faded last year but should be strong again this
		  year, especially if Lawrence Funderburke stays in school.
		  Jimmy Jackson will hopefully continue to improve.


Rest of the bunch...


Iowa
Michigan - best recruiting class since Dean's 1990 :-)  Steve Fisher better
	   win with this bunch or he's toast.
Illinois
Minnesota
Michigan State
Purdue
Northwestern
Wisconsin

    >frosh wideobyd stud Henderson
    
    Main you ARE outta touch!
    
    Alan Henderson is the exact opposite a a widebody stud.  Alan (a 
    Nat'l Honor Society student, btw) is what they call painfully
    skinny.  He's got skeels awright, but not a the nuclear widebody
    mogambo studly nature: great hands, nice touch, excellent jump
    timing, good feet, long arms, etc.
    
    Perhaps you mistook Alan for Glenn Robinson, who IS truly a widebody
    nuclear stud.  Glenn has NBA written all over his massively musculated
    bod, and has a mean streak to go along with his sneering Alonzo
    Mourning-style turnaround jumper and he likes to make people fly thru
    the air when he boards.  But it'd be hard to mistake for Glenn, cuz
    Glenn couldn't muster the minimum SAT scores and will sit out prop48
    (and IU ain't never had no prop48 meat).
    
    Big10 Tom

    re: .-1  (MrT)
    
    In the words of my hero Ronnie Reagan, ...  
    
    "There he goes again."  :^(
    
    MorT would have us believe that Henderson is some geeky kid with thick
    glasses who gets sand kicked in his face when he goes to the beach and
    his shot slapped back whenever he dare step inside with the Big Boys.
    
    Unfortunately this fails to wash with the simple fact that Alan
    Henderson was ranked in every Top 10 recruting list in the USA and,
    more often than not, in the Top 5.  (Along with Glenn Robinson.)
    
    This makes it two (2) years in a row Bob has nailed one of the premier
    forwards in the USA, and the Hoosiers are ranked in everybodies Top 5.
    Failure to win the Big10 and reach the Final 4 would have to be
    considered underachievement, IMHO.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

       We've known about Chris' political problem for years Hawk. You
    shoula axed, we'd have helped.
                                      Denny

Chris,

	Indiana's only recruit two years ago was Damon Bailey.  Not exactly
a premier forward; certainly a premier player.

	Alan Henderson was indeed a highly-ranked player, top 5 by most people,
and he's looked good in practice and the intra-squad scrimmage.  He's also
listed in the Big 10 yearbook at 6'9", 200 lbs.; certainly not a geek, but not
a "nuclear widebody stud" by any stretch of the imaginiation.  He's a skinny
kid with a lot of talent, and with a lot of work to do if he plans to play 
anything other than a finesse game at the college level.  For comparison 
purposes, some other players from IU's current roster:  
    
                 Calbert Cheaney - 6'6", 204
                 Eric Anderson - 6'9", 229
                 Matt Nover - 6'8", 225


	Henderson got 26 with 15 boards in the Hoosier's intra-squad scrimmage
over the weekend.  Cheaney lead the scoring with 32, and Lindemann got 12 with
12 boards.  Sounds like Lindemann might actually be some help before the 
season's over.  If he and Henderson are good enough to make a significant
contribution, Indiana has a chance to be as good as people are predicting.  If
not, they may have the same inside problem(s) as last year.

	Outside, things may not be looking good.  Meeks seems to be recovering
from his leg problem, but PGraham is out till December with the broken foot, 
and some people who've seen practices think Bailey isn't 100 percent after his
broken foot over the summer.  GGraham had a good summer on an international
team, but went 7-for-27 from the floor in the scrimmage so may not be the 
answer to the outside shooting problem.  

	The current plan is to red-shirt PKnight and Chris Reynolds, but 
Reynolds will have to play this year if the other guards' injuries don't come
around.

	Hoosiers play the Bruins in the Tip-Off Classic on Friday.  The
schedule's more difficult this year after last year's collection of down
programs, so the won-lost record should more closely reflect the quality
of the team.  By Saturday we'll have a good indication as to whether or not 
��they're over-rated.

tom

    tom,
    
    Me_thinks you're forgetting about IU's signing of Top 5 Lawrence
    Funderburke, who Bob chased off.  (Nothing new here.)  Interesting that
    he chose to go to Ohio State.  In the ACC this wouldn't happen, cause
    there's a gentleman's agreement among the coaches to not take each
    others transfers.  For instance, Clifford Rozier wanted to go to FSU,
    but Pat Kennedy honored this agreement and told Cliffy to look
    elsewhere.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Chris,

	Didn't (couldn't!) forget the wandering one, but he was recruited
two years before Henderson.  Two premier forwards in *3* years - definitely
a minor nit.

	There's a similar agreement in the Big Ten, but it's broached on
occasion.  Two other instances I can think of are Derek Holcomb transferring
from Indiana to Illinois 10-12 years ago, and Brad Sellers going from 
Wisconsin to Ohio State in the mid-80s.  

	The word from around the Ohio State campus, btw, is that Funderburke
is playing well enough to look like a POTY candidate for next season.  Have
to wonder if he can keep his head straight for that long, though.

	HOW'S MONTROSS?

tom

    > HOW'S MONTROSS
    
    Dunno.  Last year he averaged 5.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg.  Considering he was a
    freshman who was only getting around 15 mpg, that's not bad.  Also
    consider that he played by far his best basketball toward the end of
    last season, especially on defense.  
    
    It's a plus that he made this years Pan Am team but, for whatever
    reason, received almost no playing time.  He was relegated to 3rd
    string, behind Laettner and Peplowski.  :^(
    
    Montross is a solid player and, despite Doug Ross' dire predictions, I
    think he'll develop nicely.  No predictions on numbers this year but,
    assuming he stays injury-free, he'll see plenty of minutes.  That alone
    should get him toward double-digit rebounding numbers.  Dean sits down
    with every player after the season and tells him what he wants him to
    work on in the off-season.  He told Montross he wanted him to work on
    his offensive moves, particularly posting up on the block.  We'll see
    soon how much improvement he's made!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    One guy to watch this year may be Voshan Leonard of the Gophers.  Clem
    Haskins recruited him out of the Detroit area and everyone is gushing
    over him locally.  I haven't seen him yet, but I've heard he was ranked
    in the top 25 freshman recruits.  Some of the people that have watched
    him are saying things like he's the best player on the roster right now
    to he'll be gone in two years. (NBA)
    
    
    Spud

    Voshon Lenard was ranked in the top dozen in those lists I saw.
    
    On Indiana, they're definitely overranked right now, but could fulfill
    a top4 ranking by the year's end.  The reason they're so highly ranked
    is that the sportswriters know that Bob is loaded with talent for the 
    first time in a decade, and the ranking reflects his abilities as a
    coach more than the team.  
    
    As to the team, as Mr. Simpson so nicely positioned, they're gonna have
    to rely on two raw freshmen on the front line... hardly a proposition
    for being the 2nd best squad in the nation at this point.  Beyond that, 
    if Lindemann (who's not a blue chipper) stumbles against the big studs 
    then it's back to either forward Eric Anderson outta position and
    undersized in the post, or the awful Matt Nover, who was barely even
    recruited outta H.S. and also outta position and undersized in the post.
    
    More may depend on Lindemann than Henderson.  If he flops then IU is
    back to people outta position on a team that's small to begin with.  
    Also, against the nuclear widebody stud squads like Michigan and Iowa 
    they'd like to move Calbert to off-guard and beef up along the front
    line (Cheany's not very good at defense and reboudning inside, although
    he's improved).  Henderson could help there if Lindemann flops by either 
    going into the post (again, outta position) or by playing forward while
    Anderson or (ugh) Nover plays the middle.
    
    The other non-2nd best aspect of this squad is that none of their guards
    are talented outside shooters except PGraham, who may miss the year.
    Damon's ok, but needs to improve.  This is a team dominated by PGs.
    
    Also, the injury situation is somewhat shaky, especially with Anderson's
    chronic bad back.  Then there's Damon's broken foot.  And then PGraham's
    broken foot.
    
    re: Funderburke
    
    No "gentlemen's agreement was broached."  Bob worked with Ohio State's 
    coach (who agreed that he should be forced to sit out a year to get his
    scrambled haid together) and encouraged Lawrence to return to his home
    town and play for the Buckeyes.
    
    Should be a close game tonight against UCLA.  Whether or not the Hoosiers
    lose tonight they'll drop down into the 10-15 ranking range as their
    holes and youth manifest themselves.  They could be 2nd best by year's 
    end... IF the injury situation doesn't go bad and Lindemann-the-project
    holds up.
    
    Big10 Tom
             

    Beautiful piece of coaching last night by the General.  I suppose
    Calbert's gonna be a better man later on for setting out the most
    crucial part of the game!  Beautiful Mr. Humble, simply beautiful.
    
     - Wildcat

    Gotta agree with Wildcat on this one.  Why Knight saw the need to
    humilate Cheaney is beyond me.  (Me thinks it's his *HUGE* ego, which
    sees the need to constantly puff his chest and show his players who's
    in charge ...)  Give the UCLA kid credit for playing some great
    in_yo_face defense.  Give Knight credit for removing any possibility
    for Indiana to win the game by sitting Calbert down for practically the
    entire 2nd half ...
    
    Alan Henderson looks good though.  The real thing for sure ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    While you guys are busy attempting to prove that Bob cain't coach
    (he of the 3 Nat'l Championships and 10 Big10 Titles in 20 years)
    Knight was busy preparing his team to have its best chance at both
    his conference and the NCAAs:
    
    * Calbert deserved to sit and he knew it.  After two years he's still
      unable to unleash that lightning first step of his to help out on
      D or fill the rebounding lanes.  Vitale did several replays of IU
      defensive breakdowns, and they were two culprits: Nover, who cain't
      move and has no business even as a scrub on a Div. IA squad... and
      Calbert.
    
      He and the team will be better for his pine time.  Also, it was a 
      blowout anyway and so a perfect teaching opportunity.
    
    * It was devastating to see Nover starting ahaid a Lindemann.  But,
      after seeing Lindemann, it was apparent that IU is at least a half
      season away from having a serviceable (i.e., grade C) center.
    
    * Damon, who got more hype coming out of H.S. than anybody since Lou
      Alcindor, was overmatched.  Time and again he penetrated only to be
      stripped of the ball or have in jammed down his throat.  Being haidy,
      he adapted by staying outside.  Trouble is, this is a poor outside
      shooting team unless Eric and Calbert go outside, and so the blowout
      deepened.
    
    On the bright side:
    
    * While he may not be a center, Alan Henderson is the best big main 
      recruited to IU since Landon Turner matriculated in '78.  Not saying
      much, true, but that makes it all the more significant.
    
    * Kudos to Bob for redshirted his quickest and best defensive player
      Chris Reynolds so that he could learn how to shoot.  Coulda used him
      against UCLA, but it was best for his future.
    
    * The Hoosiers, purportedly the 2nd best squad in the nation, were able
      to keep the blowout from getting outta hand against what has to be
      the most physically talented team in the nation.  UCLA not only has
      widebodies crammed down to the end of the bench, they've got a great
      young point guard in Madkins (?) and a fine senior big main in McClean.
    
    It's unlikely that Indiana'll be able to play with a loaded U. Kaintuck,
    but they should be able to stay with Louisville and ND and the others and,
    hopefully, fashion some form of floor game (i.e., rebounding & D) and
    find an outside shooter by the beginning of the Big10 season.
    
    Big10 Tom

    The thing I find so shocking about the Hoosiers game was that this is a
    team basically intact from last year.  The only big change is the
    addition of someone even MrT acknowledges to be a mega-talent.  (If
    memory serves, last years Hoosiers were ranked in the Top 4 at season
    end before stumbling in the tournament ...)
    
    BTW, I disagree that the game was out of reach when Calbert hit the
    pine.  Behind by 10-15 points with most of the second half to play
    ain't squat but, as Vitale pointed out, Bob has failed miserably at
    incorporating the 3-point shot into his offense, despite having a
    plethora of fine outside shooters.  (3 point shooting can get you back
    in a game *quick*, but Friday night Bob's mega-ego seemed content at
    humiliating officials and players alike, as opposed to concentrating on
    a 'W'.  Go figure ...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >despite having a plethora of outside shooters.
    
    Well, you cain reinvent reality all you want, but the most glaring
    weakness of the Hoosiers, IMNSHO, isn't the lack of a center, it's
    the total lack of outside shooting.  GGraham is a great athlete, but
    coming out of H.S. his flat-arch shot was so bad that this past summer
    they reworked his delivery from the ground up, and are hoping he'll 
    show some shooting skills with it.  PGraham, whom experts regard as
    IU's only quality outside shooter, has a broken foot.  Even Bob, the
    best coach in the history of the game, proved unable to heal PGraham's
    fracture.  And even if this miracle worker coulda, PGraham is a acute
    WMD victim and has trouble developing good shots and carries a big cost
    in IU's main-to-main D scheme..  Reynolds' shot is so bad that he and 
    Bob agreed that he'd redshirt this year and rework *his* shot from the 
    ground up like GGraham.  Jamaal Meeks has never been touted as a shooter, 
    but cain cain the medium range jumper if open.
    
    Then there's Damon.  He has yet to emerge as a good outside shooter. 
    His shot selection and shooting mechanices look near perfec, but he
    hasn't yet shown the consistency required to get the permanent green
    light from Bob.  In fairness to Damon, he played SF in H.S. in a very
    rural league, and is still learning.
    
    Halfway into last year the experts agreed that IU's outside shooting
    was suspect except for Calbert and Eric.  
    
    I say that this paucity of perimeter shooting outweighs the absence of
    a grade C middlemain cuz Indiana has succeded before with a 3-guard
    lineup... but with outside shooting.  
    
    Bob will thrash his lineup mixing PT among his guards, losing games and
    hurting his precious overall winning percentage, until he finds a combo
    that works.  At the same time he'll struggle to fashion the young Todd
    Lindemann into a serviceable guy in the paint, changing some shots and
    grabbing some bounds and picking up some trips to the FT line.
    
    Until then, as I said before the UCLA game, look for Indiana to drop
    into the teens in the rankings as they demonstrate an inability to play
    with the Final Four contenders (i.e., Duke, Kaintuck, Arkansas, SyrExcuse,
    Iowa, UCLA, et al) and a tendency to have close games against grade B
    teams.
    
    2nd ranked Indiana is on the cusp between grade A and B, but they should
    improve with experience and Bob's player development program.  Right now
    they look like they should finish 3rd in the Big10 behind Iowa and the
    maize and blue...
    
    Big10 Tom
    

I watched most of the Indiana-UCLA game, too, and I had some of the same 
thoughts about Indiana that T has stated.   They'll be a powerful team come 
season's end.   Alan Henderson is the real deal.

Nothing wrong with Calbert Cheaney grabbin' some pine in November.  He'll 
be on the floor in March.   And I still like Damon Bailey.  He could play 
for my team any day.

Bob Hunt

    > Friday night Bob's mega-ego seemed content at
    > humiliating officials and players alike, as opposed to concentrating on
    >  a 'W'.  Go figure ...)
    
    Kind of Like Snuffy refusing to play zone at home against Duke or getting
    tossed from the Kansas game with 35 ticks left and congratulating the
    oppossision...


    

    > Teach in November, win in March
    
    Why not teach *and* win in November, teach *and* win in March?  Nowhere
    is it written that these two (2) items are mutually exclusive.  I
    personally don't subscribe to the notion that Bob is a master of this
    anyway.  He's managed to peak masterfully on three (3) season-ending
    occasions.  He deserves and receives mucho credit for this.
    
    But what about the other 17 years?  What about all those disapointing
    early exits?  What about *last* year, when he had a team in the Top 4
    in the country.  They then struggled to win games against Coastal
    Carolina and FSU before getting blown away by Kansas.  Guess Bob's
    November teaching wasn't good enough, although he sure was piling on
    the W's ...
    
    I just can't understand the need to bench your best player, a preseason
    All-American, in a game you can still win.  What does this teach him
    that can't be taught in practice?  (Other than how to be humiliated
    on national television ...)   I also find it hilarious that MorT, whose
    been exclusively complaining about IU's lack of a big man as their
    achilles heel, suddenly sez they don't have a perimeter game.  Haw! 
    Bailey can shoot and make 3's.  So can Andersen.  Clearly Cheaney can. 
    That's 3 outa 5 players who are OUTSTANDING outside shooters.  Let's
    not talk about how your bench scrubs can't shoot - let's talk about how
    your prime time players CAN shoot.  (When Knight let's 'em play, that
    is.)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    >What about all those early exits?
    
    What about 'em?  He's had less than most coaches.  Certainly far 
    fewer than Snuffer.
    
    >He's managed to peak masterfully on three (3) season-ending
    >occasions. 
    
    Translated in to plain English: He's managed to win three National
    Championships in 20 years; while Snuffy, with oodles more talent (just
    look at his NBA All-Stars) has managed only one in 30 years, and needed
    a end-game gift from a stoned guard to avoid squandering *that* one.
    
    >let's not talk about... scrubs
    
    I went over the outside shooting skills of all the guards on the team.
    You said the Hoosiers were loaded with outside shooters, and I showed 
    you that they don't really have one, except maybe PGraham, who's hurt,
    and even *he* shot only about 30% last year from outside last year.
    
    Damon Bailey has not shot well from outside.  Yeah, he cain cain the 
    trey, and has some great outside shooting games, but overall he's a
    debit right now from the arc.  You fallaciously criticize Bob for
    poorly integrating the trey into his game plan, but fail to mention
    that he's unleashed many trey attempts when he had the shooters.  He
    doesn't this year, so he's better off sticking with the inside game.
    
    Btw, two of the three fine outside shooters you mention (Eric and
    Calbert) are needed inside given the dire situation in there (IU tends
    to get badly outrebounded, did last year).  True, with Alan Calbert 
    will be more freed up to go out to the corner.  False, until he
    improves his J no way is Bob gonna give the green light to Damon and
    that's fine by me.
    
    Sitting Calbert was deserved and necessary.  The Hoosiers were overmatched
    and Cheany was doing a horseheet job with the floor game.  If he persists
    at hurting his team by not helping out on D and rebounding, he could end
    up seeing a lot more pine time.
    
    As for FSU, about half the pundits last year predicted that the Seminoles
    would beat IU cuz a their vastly superior physical talent.  Sure 'nuff,
    IU was intimidated with magambo blocked shots, bounds, and jams, and
    went up by 17.  But then, their poor hoops skeels showed up as the Hoosiers
    gutsily stuck to their game plan and didn't freak out.  IU won by 18 or
    so, with a "coaching swing" of about 35 points in less than a quarter.
    
    UCLA has the same suite of nuclear widebodies that FSU had, but these
    kids knokw how to play the hoops, especially Madkins and McClean. Ditto
    for Kansas, whom IU would have trouble keeping up with even now.
    
    Face it: the Hoosiers are vastly overrated due to their coach's vaunted
    capabilities.  They're chock full a holes.  As Dickie-poo intelligently
    observed, Bob cain't work his magic on this flawed squad until at the
    earliest halfway through the season.
    
    Meanwhile, Michigan will be preening the "best incoming freshman class
    ever."  And Iowa is loaded, with a fine center and some tough front-line 
    guys.
    
    Here's hoping for another "masterful season-ending peak!"
    
    Big10 Tom
    
    

    You've reached new lows on the Intellectual Honesty front, MorT.  (And
    that's sayin' something, *believe* me!)  
    
    How you can look us in the eye (figuratively speaking) and say that
    Florida State had tons more talent than last years Hucksters is
    amazing.  (I suppose Coastal Carolina had more too, right?)  How you
    can bad-mouth IU's talent, when that very same talent took them to a #1
    seed in the NCAA Tournament, is equally amazing.  (They've got more this
    year than last, with the addition of the studly Henderson.)
    
    I also think you're giving UCLA too much credit.  They've got talent,
    but they haven't gotten over their old problems of selfishness, poor
    shot selection, and lack of intelligent play.  No way should they have
    blown out the highly ranked Hoosiers.
    
    BTW, I ran into my HoosierHead (tm) neighbor yesterday.  First words
    outa his mouth (spoken crisply) were 'I'm not talking about The Game.'
    Luved it!
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    
    
    - ACC Chris

	MorT, let me get this straight.  The same scribes and pundits who 
vastly overrate IU's talent are right on the money when assessing UNC's 
talent?

				/Don

I was at a get together to watch the Giants game yesterday.

One of the fellows had seen Bob Knight speak recently (or maybe last
year, I couldn't quite tell) at a Massachusetts showcase for new talent
of whatever.

After the speakers, they had the assistant coaches get up and answer
questions.

One boob in the audience, of course, asks about The Chair.

The ass't coach says

		"Geez, here we go again.  Everybody always asks
		 about the chair.  I really don't see what the big
		 deal is.  Bob saw an old lady on the far side of
		 the court who didn't have a chair, and being
		 the gentleman that he is, slid one across for her"


I guess there was also a story about Bob coaching Jordan in da Olympics.
The US was playing Canada and we're beating them up pretty good.
Jordan in particular was having a great game.  Come halftime, Knight had
to go in and make some kind of speech to fire up the team for the
second half.

On his way in, he really couldn't think of anything else to say so he
decided to pick on Jordan (who was playing best of anyone).  So, Knight
starts in on Jordan:

		"Dammit Michael, I haven't seen you set ONE pick out there
		 tonight.  Oh you're shooting well, and passing well,
	 	 but dammit, get into the game.  I wanna see you setting
		 some PICKS in the second half"

Well, it turns out Michael had recently read a quote from Knight were
Knight said that Jordan was probably the quickest player he'd ever seen.
So Michael replies:

		"Yeah, but Coach, I was reading how you think I'm the
		 quickest player you've ever seen.  I was setting pick
		 out there.  I was just setting them so quick you
		 couldn't see 'em"

Well, Knight just broke out laughing and had to leave the locker room....

    FACT: IU was a poor rebounding poor outside shooting team last year.
    
    FACT: IU was the weakest team in the middle in the conference last year,
          and, given that Matt Nover is probably the worst Div. IA center in 
          the game right now, they IU may indeed be the weakest team in the
          middle in the country.
    
    You're right, with the addition of superstar Alan nothing has changed
    from last year.  And, based on their 29-5 record last year, another 
    thing that won't change is their being overrated, this year starting
    out at #2, dropping down to #18 or so, and then - as Bob's teaching and
    experience catch up, moving up to #6-8 or so.
    
    Dick Vitale said UCLA is loaded, not me.  Dick Vitale also said that in
    order to compete at the highest level they needed to get some play from
    the center position.  The most popular upset prediction in the pre-NCAAs
    prognostication was FSU over IU.  This was in USA Today and on ESPN,
    poor MrT had nothing to do with it.  
    
    What's your point?  That talentless/skilless Matt Nover is a big-time
    center?  That a team that got outrebounded with regularity last year is
    loaded in the middle?  That a team that shot very poorly from the arc
    last year is a great perimeter shooting team?
    
    That' Bob cain't coach?
    
    Here's my point: IU shoulda been preseason ranked at about #15, cuz 
    that's about what they are.  They'll get better as Alan catches on. If
    big Todd Lindemann catches on they'll get a LOT better and in a hurry.
    No matter what they do they'll be a poor guard-shooting team and in the
    Big10 that means 4 or 5 losses cuz they'll be zoned to death.
    
    And that with 3-for-20 and 10-for-20 Bob's coaching credentials are
    beyond dispute... He's the best ever.
    
    Your capacity for twisting things and refusing to allow the Truth is
    beyond me.  I call 'em as I see 'em, and I see 'em as they are.  This
    is why I've been referred to in here thousands a times as "MrT, SPORTS'
    Objective Analyst."
    
    MrT

    MorT (what doesn THAT mena anyhow ?), Dick Vitale also picked IU as the
    best in the country.
    
    As did SPORT and INSIDE SPORTS ...
    
    So tell us, are all of these people lying ? And like Slasher says, if
    in fact they overrate IU's talent, then they must be doing the same for
    UNC right ?
    
    Dr Midnight

    >The same scribes and pundits who vastly overrate IU's talent are
    >right on the moneyw hen assessing UNC's talent?
    
    Nice try, Hairy Smithna, but you fall short in a ridiculous manner:
    
    1) Forget the writers and lookit Bob and Snuffer.  Each rated Eric
       Montross as the top center two years ago.  Snuffy got him cuz Bob
       had to pay the price to make sure that his crippled PF didn't get
       screwed by Eric's shyster-father.  
    
       So, at the center position both coaches are on-record.
    
    2) IU has more talent now than at any time since '81, when they had a
       true superstar in Isiah.  I'm on record having said that.  
    
       But I'm also on record for having said that they had two gaping holes
       last year: No center, poor perimeter shooting, and a sorry lack a
       depth  at the forwared position.  In other words, after Funderburke
       left, Bob's first highly touted recruiting class in over ten years
       was Calbert and a half dozen poor shooting point guards.
    
    What's changed this year is that with Alan they now have some depth at the
    forward spot.  What hasn't changed is the center problem (note: Snuffy
    has a passle of 7 footers) but that maybe, could, possibly, potentially,
    change if Todd Lindemann improves, and the perimeter shooting problem,
    which will definitely improve somewhat with Alan freeing up Calbert, but
    won't improve to the point where IU is a big-time hard-to-beat Duke/UCLA/
    Arkansas/Carolina/SyrExcuse/et al level unless at the very least Damon
    Bailey learns how to hit the outside shot. 
    
    He's young, he might.  Lindemann's young, and totally inexperienced at
    not having a one foot height advantage, but he might improve to.
    
    Right now IU is looking for a shooting guard and a center.  This is not
    the mark of a top team.  I'd rank IU at about #18 right now.  
    
    Carolina has no holes to speak of.  They have the center Bob wanted to
    be his first true star center ever.  They have one a the hottest outside
    shooters ever.  They have a widebody who cain play either SF or PF. 
    They have H.S. A-As falling off the end of the bench.
    
    Only thing they don't have is a great coach, a Bob-style coach.
    
    But who does?  [IU]
    
    MrT(erribly Objective On This)

    >are all of these people lying ?
    
    No, they're paying tribute to Bob's genius, a tribute to his capacity
    for "meaningless end-of-season peaks" which has nothing to do with 
    where they are right now.
    
    They're also ignoring the FACK that Indiana is starting at center a guy
    who was projected all along to be an end-of-bench backup PF with poor
    skills and little H.S. experience.  The loss of Montross, then Funderburke,
    and other big-time centers that Bob has failed to recruit saw to Nover's
    unexpected role.
    
    And they're ignoring the FACK that IU was a poor rebounding team last 
    year and the FACK that IU was, with the exception of Calbert, was a poor
    perimeter shooting team last year.
    
    Who's wrong?
    
    I'll stand by my preseason prediction.  Indiana's gonna lose a lotta
    games (4-8) and will slump to somewhere in the 15-20 range (unless the
    insanity rankings persists) and will take a run at a Big10 Title that
    may or may not work out (but wouldn't work out if the Big10 wasn't
    rebuilding this year) and will end the regular season at about #6-8 
    and will maybe make the Sweet Sixteen but certainly is only a longshot
    to make the Final Four - where they'd have no chance at all against
    more veteran teams with no gaping holes to speak of.
    
    MrT(ruthful Even When It's Unpopular)

    > Here's my point: IU shoulda been preseason ranked at about #15,
    
    Let me get this straight.  IU finished #4 in the USA last year.  IU
    lost NOBODY from that team.  IU added one of the top 5 players in the
    USA.  And you say they should be preseason #15.
    
    Here's *my* point:  You're fulluv_it.  (BS, that is.)
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    'T, you're definitely a "LEGEND IN YOU'RE *OWN* MIND" :-)
    
    Allow me to correct you on your assesment of UK's "loaded" team.  This
    team is the same team plus Jamal Mashburn that Pitino inherited two
    years ago.  He inherited a team of nobody's.  Pelphrey, Feldhaus,
    Woods, Farmer, Brassow ... Not exactly a group of blue-chippers here. 
    Eddie Sutton had the same team plus Chris Mills, Leron, Ellis, and Sean
    Sutton, and went something like 13-18 his last year!  Pitino comes in
    and takes the group minus Mills, Ellis, and Sutton and nobody over 6-7
    and goes 14-14 the first year, and 22-6 last year!  I only wish Pitino
    had the talent IU has the last couple of years.  
    
    BTW, this years freshman class at UK was rated number 17 I believe by
    Bob Gibbons.
    
    Wildcat 

    	MorT, you never answered my question just babbled on for about
    50 lines or so.  You should follow a career path in politics.
    
    				/Don

    >Let me get this straight.  IU fnished #4 in the USA last year.
    
    Oh, you got it straight alright.  Straight that joe such a pathological
    lie that even if wanted to (and you certainly do not) joe cain't stop:
    
    1) IU got blown out of the Sweet Sixteen.  Thus, it's reasonable to 
       call them #16 based on last year.
    
    2) IU, as you have been panting heavily all day long, had trouble with
       Coastal Carolina and FSU, which factoring for the draw might even 
       cause one to conclude that they weren't even in the top16 based on
       real world results at last year's end.  
    
    3) IU added a great, but extremely green, young forward.  Not a great
       rebounder or power player, but a truly fine player.  Meanwhile,
       their two main holes (no off-guard, no center), remain unsolved.
    
    4) And most egregiously, you persist in fallaciously implying that I'm
       comparing last year's March edition to this year's.  I aim not.  All
       I'm saying is that last year's team was flawed and this year's team
       has the same danged flaws, and that it'll take a coupla months to 
       find out whether this team cain be considered a contender to make
       the Final Four.
    
    They could emerge as such a contender, but I rather doubt that they
    will.  While they have a lotta horses, they just don't seem to have the
    right horses.  Unless, of course, Todd Lindemann surprises the living 
    hail outta me, which could happen and which I of course *hope* happens...
    
    No, I'd trade IU's lineup for Carolina's lineup in a New York minute.
    They have the center IU lusted for but didn't get cuz a their classy
    behavior, in Lynch they have a forward who'll go farther in the NBA 
    than Eric Anderson will, in Hubert they have a guard who cain actually
    light it up from afar, and they have... experience.
    
    Big10 MrT

    > IU got blown out of the Sweet Sixteen.  Thus, it's reasonable to
    > call them #16 based on last year.
    
    Hardy-Har-Har!  Not so fast, MorT.  IU underachieved *badly* in this
    years tourney, just like they've underachieved *badly* in past years. 
    With Bob it seems you either get a marginal degree of overachievement
    or (more often) a similar degree of underachievement.  (In the cases of
    Cleveland State and Richmond, we're talking exponential
    underachievement.)
    
    IU is clearly a legitimate Top 4 club last year.  I've yet to see a
    poll this year that didn't put them in the Top 4.  They're the
    favorites to win the Big 10 this year, and rightly so.  For whatever
    reason they fell flat on their faces against an admittedly well-playing
    UCLA squad.
    
    BTW, when comparing UNC with IU I'd hasten to point out we don't have a
    player who even comes close to the ability of Cheaney, who's about as
    sweet_a offensive talent as you'll ever wanna see.  Andersen impresses
    the heck outa me with his shooting and all-around game.  And your
    stable of guards leaves Carolina flat-out in the dust.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    ACCrock, you're capacity for staring down Reality is, well, almost
    Dan-like in its unabashed majesty:
    
    * These "early round exits" you keep huffing and puffing about are
      much less frequent that you'd have us believe, in fact, less frequent
      than in a certain Star Hell program that'll go unnamed.
    
    * Yes, Cheaney's a supreme offensive talent.  He also may soon be a 
      substitute unless he starts playing an at least mediocre floor game 
      with the D and the 'bounds.
    
    * We'll probably never know how good a college player Eric Anderson 
      coulda been, cuz on D they routinely rotate out the awful Nover and
      rotate in Anderson to belly up against true centers, which just as
      routinely causes him to end up in foul trouble (as against UCLA),
      tire out (as against UCLA), or reinjure his chronic lower back (as
      against Kansas).
    
    * The great guard talent you keep talking about is certainly real in
      terms of speed, jumping ability, quickness, etc.  It is, alas,
      certainly not there in terms of jump shooting.
    
    >With Bob it seems yo either get a marginal degree of overachievement
    >or (more often) a similar degree of underachievement.
    
    If by "marginal degree of overachievement" you imply that he hasn't 
    attained the "consistent excellence" that CoachK sneeringly congratulated
    Snuffy for during that hilarious pre-Final Four interview last year, I 
    cain only clutch my Bob Doll and weep with thanks.
    
    On the other hand, you must somehow reconcile this fantastic assertion
    with the fact that Bob has one a the highest overall winning percentages,
    one a the highest NCAA tourney winning percentages, and 10 Big10 Titles
    in 20 years.
    
    Good luck, 'Crockmeister!
    
    Big10 MrT

From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
Subject: Big Ten Pre-conference Schedules
Date: 21 Nov 91 23:05:00 GMT
 
Thanks to the many who contributed to this.  Home games in CAPS, road
games and road tourneys in lower case...
  
Penn State
 
n25    illinois
n27    BUFFALO
d2     american
d6-7   first bank classic (milwaukee)
         (Marquette, Columbia, and St. Francis)
d14    BOWLING GREEN
d18    drexel (palestra)
d21    georgia (kuppenheiner classic - atlanta)
d27-29 west palm beach classic (miami)
         (Miami, Fl., Marshall, and George Washington)
j2     ohio state
j7     james madison
j11    MORGAN STATE
j13    BROWN
j16    marshall
j18    MIAMI, OH.
j21    butler
j25    penn (hershey)
j27    TOLEDO
f2     MARYLAND-BALTIMORE COUNTY
f3     DUQUESNE
f8     old dominion
f10    temple (hershey)
f17    maryland-baltimore county
f20    LAFAYETTE
f24    OLD DOMINION
m2     AMERICAN
 
 
Illinois
 
n25    PENN STATE
n30    NE LOUISIANA
d3     TENNESSEE STATE
d6-7   ILLINI CLASSIC
         (vs. Hawaii, and SC State vs. Washington)
d10    temple
d21    MARYLAND-BALTIMORE COUNTY
d23    missouri (st. louis)
d30    illinois-chicago
j4/5   CONNECTICUT
 
 
Indiana
 
n15    ucla (springfield, ma)
n30    BUTLER
d3     NOTRE DAME
d7     KENTUCKY (Indianapolis?)
d10    VANDERBILT
d13-14 INDIANA CLASSIC
         (vs. Boston U., and Central Michigan vs. UT-Martin)
d21    st. johns
d27-28 HOOSIER CLASSIC (Indianapolis)
         (vs. Texas Tech, and Indiana State vs. Kent)
j4     cincinnati
 
 
Iowa
 
n23    MARYLAND-EASTERN SHORE
n26    WESTERN ILLINOIS
d3     DRAKE
d6-7   AMMANA-HAWKEYE CLASSIC
         (vs. Army, and Bowling Green vs. Louisiana Tech)
d10    nothern iowa
d14    iowa st.
d27-28 tribune invitational (florida)
         (South Florida vs. NE Illinois, and Butler vs. Iowa)
j4     CENTENARY
 
 
Michigan
 
d2     detroit
d7     cleveland state
d9     CHICAGO STATE
d12    EASTERN MICHIGAN
d14    DUKE
d16    CENTRAL MICHIGAN
d21    RICE
d28-30 red lobster classic  (florida)
         (Florida vs. Virginia Tech, and BYU vs. Michigan)
 
 
Michigan State
 
n25-27 maui invitational (hawaii)
         (Chaminade vs. Providence, Arizona State vs. Rice, 
          Arkansas vs. Minnesota, Lamar vs. Michigan State)
d4     NEBRASKA
d7     dayton
d14    DETROIT
d17    ILLINOIS-CHICAGO
d21    CINCINNATI
d27-28 SPARTAN OLDS CLASSIC
         (vs. Austin Peay, and Sienna vs. Stanford)
 
 
Minnesota
 
n25-27 maui invitational (hawaii)
          (Chaminade vs. Providence, Arizona State vs. Rice, 
           Arkansas vs. Minnesota, Lamar vs. Michigan State)
n30    HOWARD
d2     YOUNGSTOWN STATE
d11    AKRON
d14    alabama-birmingham
d17    DETROIT
d19    memphis state
d23    WEBER STATE
d27-28 far west classic (portland)
         (Oregon vs. Minnesota, and LaSalle vs. Oregon State)
 
 
Northwestern
 
n22    ILLINOIS WESLEYAN
n30    COLUMBIA
d2     VANDERBILT
d4     tulane
d14    NORTHEASTERN
d16    IDAHO STATE
d21    loyola of chicago
d27-28 tribune classic (tempe)
         (Arizona State vs. Brown, and Creighton vs. Northwestern)
j6     CHICAGO
 
 
Ohio State
 
n26    MIAMI-OHIO
n30    CHICAGO STATE
d4     OHIO UNIVERSITY
d7     OREGON STATE
d14    HOWARD
d18    UC-SANTA BARBARA
d21    southern cal
d29    AMERICAN
j2     PENN STATE
 
 
Purdue
 
n21    BALL STATE (Pre-Season NIT)
n23,27,29  (Possible Pre-Season NIT)
d2     indiana state
d6-7   BOILERMAKER CLASSIC
         (vs. Prairie View A&M, and Central Michigan vs. UW-Green Bay)
d15    GEORGIA
d17    STETSON
d21    butler
d23    SW MISSOURI STATE
d28    loyola-chicago (rosemont)
j2     north carolina
j4     WESTERN MICHIGAN
 
 
Wisconsin
 
n23    LOYOLA-CHICAGO
n25    SE MISSOURI STATE
n30    portland
d3     SMU
d5     CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE
d7     COSTAL CAROLINA
d11    nebraska
d13    SAM HOUSTON STATE
d21    HOWARD
d27-30 rainbow classic  (hawaii)
         (Hawaii vs. Navy, Alabama vs. Bradley,
          Fresno State vs. Villanova, Washington State vs. Wisconsin)
j2     MARQUETTE
 

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten Update (11-21-91)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1991 23:16:43 GMT
 
Upcoming Big Ten games:
 
Nov. 21:	Ball State at Purdue, NIT, 6:30 pm CST, ESPN
 
Nov. 22:	Illinois Wesleyan at Northwestern
 
Nov. 23:	Maryland-Eastern Shore at Iowa
		Loyola-Chicago at Wisconsin
		Possible action for Purdue in NIT (site TBA)
 
Nov. 25:	Penn State at Illinois
		Michigan State vs. Lamar; Minnesota vs. Arkansas at Maui
		SE Missouri State at Wisconsin
 
Nov. 26:	Western Illinois at Iowa
		Miami-Ohio at Ohio State
		Michigan State/Minnesota at Maui
 
Nov. 27:	Buffalo at Penn State
		Michigan State/Minnesota at Maui
		Possible action for Purdue in NIT at New York

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.college
From: [email protected] (Randy Peppler)
Subject: Big Ten Update (11-22-91, and it's even Friday)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1991 21:15:53 GMT
 
Results and Upcoming Big Ten games:
 
Nov. 20:	MICHIGAN STATE 92, Athletes in Action 71
 
Nov. 21:	MICHIGAN 100, Athletes in Action 93 (Romar had 45 for AIA!)
 
		PURDUE 56, Ball State 48:  If you love scrappy, hard-nosed
		defense, then you loved this game.  Purdue's D forced
		BSU into all sorts of calamities, mostly very poor shot
		selection (the FG % shows it) and inability to get off
		shots much before the clock expired.  BSU's D forced
		Purdue into a boatload of turnovers.  There's a silver
		lining for both - Purdue got very positive contributions
		from some of it's "question marks", namely Matt Waddell,
		Cuonzo Martin, and Brandon Brantley.  Also, Woody Austin
		seemed to get himself loosened up as the game wore on.
		If Purdue can play defense like this every time, especially
		against a guy like Chandler Thompson (who looked silly at
		times), then the team will have chance most nights.  For BSU,
		the team has nowhere to go but up, and should do quite
		well in the MAC and beyond...  The halftime score was
		26-24 Purdue, and the second half was 30-24 Purdue.  The
		final margin was the games largest.  Waddell hit some
		key shots and generally looked good.  So did Ian Stanback,
		whom Craig Riley could emulate for hustle...  A sellout of
		14,123 at Mackey Arena.  The new floor paintjob looks
		great!
 
Nov. 22:	Illinois Wesleyan at Northwestern
 
Nov. 23:	Maryland-Eastern Shore at Iowa
		Loyola-Chicago at Wisconsin
		Purdue at Oklahoma State in NIT action (no ESPN due to
		their football commitments on Saturday)
 
Nov. 25:	Penn State at Illinois
		Michigan State vs. Lamar; Minnesota vs. Arkansas at Maui
		(the Mn-Ark game is on ESPN at 3:30 pm Central!!!)
		SE Missouri State at Wisconsin
 
Nov. 26:	Western Illinois at Iowa
		Miami-Ohio at Ohio State
		Michigan State/Minnesota at Maui
 
Nov. 27:	Buffalo at Penn State
		Michigan State/Minnesota at Maui
		Possible action for Purdue in NIT at New York

	Update on Hoosier basketball:

	* Chris Reynolds has been un-redshirted.  According to
 	  Knight:  "He's our best guard, and this team can't play
	  without its' best guard".

	* Damon Bailey's been out since last Wednesday with a
	  nerve injury.

	* Pat Graham is recovering nicely, but they won't be able
	  to make a decision on whether or not he can play this
	  season for another couple of weeks.

tom

    
    From USA Today:
    
    " I like to think that every experiment Edison tried didn't result in
    the light bulb."
    
    - IU Coach Bob  Knight, changing his mind about redshirting junior
    guard Chris Reynolds after a season-opening loss to UCLA.
    
    JD

Bingo !!!   And *THAT* is why Bobby Knight is the best college basketball 
coach in the country followed up very closely by Mike Krzyzewksi ... and 
Roy Williams coming on incredibly fast and strong.

They keep on experimenting and tinkering and refining and perfecting things 
until they get it right ... and then they tinker with it all over again.   
True *CRAFTSMEN* who are never quite satisfied with success.

And way, way, way back there in the way, way, way back of the bus is the 
Snuffer ... refusing to call time outs, refusing to play zones, refusing to 
put his senior masons on the bench and, finally and pathetically, 
abandoning his team when it needed him most desperately.

Remember the Kansas players after the Carolina game ... "Everybody knew all 
the plays so we just improvised better than they did."   Do you think 
Thomas Edison might have "improvised" just a little bit to get that ol' 
lightbulb burning ???

Bob Hunt

> Remember the Kansas players after the Carolina game ... "Everybody knew all 
> the plays so we just improvised better than they did."   Do you think 
> Thomas Edison might have "improvised" just a little bit to get that ol' 
> lightbulb burning ???

So tell me then Mr.Hunt, how come Bobby Knight, "the best college basketball
coach in the country", couldn't find a way to defeat this same Kansas team?
Or at least avoid getting blown out?  

Don't tell me.  No talent, right?


- ACC Chris
    

- So tell me then Mr.Hunt, how come Bobby Knight, "the best college        
- basketball coach in the country", couldn't find a way to defeat this same 
- Kansas team? Or at least avoid getting blown out?  

That's an easy one.   Knight himself stepped up to the podium after 
Indiana's loss to Kansas here in Charlotte and admitted that his team had 
come as far as it was expected to go.

Knight, by his own admission, had the talent to get to the Sweet Sixteen 
and no further.   As the Region's No. 2 seed, they were overrated ... again 
his own words.

No such words comin' outta Snuffy, were there ???

Bob Hunt

>No such words comin' outta Snuffy, were there ???

Bob, it's hard to talk wif a chicken bone stuck in your throat....


hth,
'Saw

    > That's an easy one.  Knight himself stepped up to the podium after
    > Indiana's loss to Kansas here in Charlotte and admitted that his
    > team had come as far as it was expected to go.
    
    Hah!  In my very best Church_Lady voice, ....  "Isn't that
    **CONVIENIENT**!"
    
    I can only imagine what the weasel throngs woulda said if the 4th
    ranked Tar Heels (we were ranked 5th, BTW.  IU was 4th) had gotten
    blown out in the Sweet 16 and Dean had said "I didn't expect us to 
    go any farther".  You woulda had a field day.
    
    As it was Dean overachieved in almost everybodies book, taking a very
    young and inexperienced bunch to the Final 4 before barely losing to
    the identical team.  Yet Knight's a genius and Dean rides in the back
    of the bus.  Get_a clue, Ketch!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    Chris -
    How come when talking about last year - you always say Smith took a
    young, inexperienced team, blah, blah blah
    
    BUT 
    
    When talking about this year - you talk about all the senior leadership
    lost from last year's team.
    
    So, which is it, Soup:
    
    Was last year's team young, or did it have senior experience and
    leadership?  
    
    Is this year's team young again?
    
    JD

    Both teams were/are young, JD.  Last years had five (5) freshmen and
    six (6) sophomores.  True we did have three (3) senior leaders, but it
    was still a young team.
    
    This year we've only got 1 senior, but only 1 frosh.  The overall
    experience is better (Dean sez practice is going *much* better than
    last year cause everybody already knows the plays at least) despite
    the lack of senior leadership.
    
    I will say that in '92-93 and '94-95 we should be a very experienced
    team, with lots of seniors and juniors.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    	So FatBob says we was overrated and the red-sweatered faithful
    all holler AMEN!  HAHAHAHAHA�  By the way Brother_Chris my main
    man Rick Fox looks better every game.  He came to Boston with a
    good knowledge of the fundamentals of roundball.  Course every time
    he has a bad game you'll hear about it, but rest assured that will
    not be often.
    
    				/Don

-    As it was Dean overachieved in almost everybodies book, taking a very
-    young and inexperienced bunch to the Final 4 before barely losing to
-    the identical team.  Yet Knight's a genius and Dean rides in the back
-    of the bus.  Get_a clue, Ketch!

Yeah, he overachieved big time, didn't he ...   The No. 1 seed in the East 
plays the Nos. 16, 9, 10, and 12 seeds and you call that *OVER*achieving ???  
The first seed he saw in an upper half of any bracket was Kansas and we all 
know what happened there.

Should Indiana have lost to Kansas ???   No, probably not.   But those two 
teams were *MUCH* more evenly matched than the Tar Heels and Kansas.   

Carolina, with The Teacher at the helm, should have had few problems 
dealing with The Student from Lawrence.    Yet, ol' Teach had his rock 
chalk Jayhawk handed to him, didn't he ???

Bob Hunt

 - True we did have three (3) senior leaders, but it was still a young  
 - team.

Spin control at its igKnorrant best.

Bob Hunt

    Well said, bro_/Don.  Well said.  I saw where Fox went for something
    like 25 the other night, 16 in the 2nd quarter alone!  
    
    re: LeftWingBob
    
    Desperately trying to goad me into_a political debate, eh?  Wail take 
    it to SOAPBOX bub, before I sick_a moderator on ya.
    
    As to Dean under/overachieving, it's a rare event to reach the Final 4
    and consider the season a disapointment.  Let's not make the false
    assessment that just cause there were alot of upsets in the East that
    it takes away from the achievement.  The teams we played (except for
    1st round Northeastern) had all beaten somebody good or they wouldn't
    have advanced.  The fact that we didn't fall victim to an upset like
    all the other high seeds is an accomplishment Carolina should be
    congratulated for.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>The fact that we didn't fall victim to an upset like
>    all the other high seeds* is an accomplishment Carolina should be
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    congratulated** for.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    *Duke?  UNLV?
    
    Fall victim to an upset?  You mean like Kansas beating Indiana?  The
    same team that beat UNC?  Let's see, you criticize Knight for the same
    choke job you laud** Smith for.  Oh, OK, this fits into "ran into a hot
    team" excuse.  Sorry.  For a minute there I didn't understand.
    
    	--dan'l

    
    I'll be honest: I don't think Knight had his team ready for that
    Kansas game.  A team that comes out and plays a sloppy, lackluster,
    go-through-the-motions game like that one is a reflection, however 
    minor, on the coach for that particular outing.  Even considering 
    the talent level, Indiana played as poor a game as Carolina did 
    against Kansas later.  So we'll make no excuses for Knight last 
    season, even if they're still coming in by the bushelfull from the 
    other side ("System versus System ==> sloppy game"  Haw haw haw!)
                           
    I'd even be willing to bet that there have been entire recruiting
    classes of kids for whom Knight's total hardass approach just flat 
    didn't work.  They don't want to buy into his system, don't want to 
    commit, and Knight won't compromise his very high principles.  I 
    have no problem with that.  Still doesn't take away from the kids who 
    do commit, and have pulled down three titles in the last 20 years 
    because of the level of their commitment to Knight's demands.  Still 
    doesn't explain away all of the wailing and bawling coming out of the 
    Smif' camp, and the paucity of titles produced by the Rev's lenient, 
    "go-ahead-and-do-whatever-pleases-you-JR", soft-on-standards-and-
    discipline approach.  Never hurts to peel away all the bogus 
    platitudes and gratitudes and examine the ol' bottom line, now 
    does it?
    
    glenn
    

    What keelt IU in the Kansas game was 1) they didn't have a center
    to go up against Kansas' strong front-line, leaving an exhausted,
    hurt, and outta position Eric Anderson frozen as they pounded to
    the hoop on drives and rebounds, 2) abysmal outside shooting, and
    3) the inablity to solve the outside shooting problem by hitting
    medium shots and/or close shots.  A physical big guy woulda hit the
    inside shots, of which they had plenty, but the rejections and tough
    D Kansas put on them stopped that approach early.
    
    Of course, MrT predicted all that, and said they were vastly overrated
    as a #2 seed and 4th ranked.
    
    This year's Hoosier edition's loss to UCLA exhibited some of the same
    weakness with the poor outside shooting.  But their inside game will
    be better with Alan Henderson and Lindemann.  Trouble in that game 
    comes from relying on those two while still totally inexperienced, 
    especially Lindemann, who until that day played againsslow 6-2 
    centers in the Michigan UP.  But they'll get better, a lot better. 
    Henderson will FINALLY give them an inside defensive presence. 
    Lindemann looks extrememly green, but should be servicble with his
    floor game by year's end and could be a good player all 'round by 
    next year or his junior year with development.
    
    The lousy outside shoong is of grave concern.  Last year they won
    a Big10 Title against a nuclear widebodied by short Ohio State front-
    line by going inside with their quickness.  Now OSU has a top ranked
    center, and so does Michigan, and Iowa's big main is a year older and
    coming into his own.  Meanwhile, Minnesotwill feature its most talented
    lineup since the Trent Tucker/Randy Bruer daze, with the 7-2 Bruer-like
    Bob Martin looking like he'll come into his own with (finally) guards
    who cain fill it up and who cain penetrate, and some big-time but
    youthful talent along the baseline.
    
    IU's not a dominating team, they're missing a couple of ingredients.  
    They'll be zoned to death in the Big10.  If they don't solve the
    outside shooting problem they're hurting  Even if they do they'll still 
    lose some based on having two frosh in featured roles.
    
    Watch out for young Minnesota.  They played Arkansas tough the other 
    day and they beat Providence last night.  They're shooting for 4th in
    the Big10 and a tourney bid, and it looks like they'll do it.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Boo hoo hoo ... poor IU ....

    Yea, I'm cryin' too, but the tears are from laughter.  MorT analyzes
    the IU-UCLA game and fails to even mention how badly Cheaney played,
    despite the fact that his idol-coach sat his All-American butt down for
    almost the entire 2nd half! 
    
    Haw haw haw!!!!!!1111111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    I'll igKnorr the catcalls from the Peanut Gallery and take comfort
    in knowing that my review is, as always, both objective and a good
    indicator of the team's success, and that events will prove me out
    to a.... T.
    
    re: Big10
    
    With State roughing up a admittedly short-handed Arkansas and a good
    showing by the young but unusually talented Gopher squad, it looks 
    like the Big10 will be very deep this year.  Michigan is rolling out
    what's being called "the best freshman class ever," Iowa will be good
    but inflexibly coached by Dr. Malpractice, Ohio State has a first team
    All-America guard (JJ) and a fine point guard (Baker) and others from
    last year to go with transfer Lawrence Funderburke who was thrown off
    his H.S. team but was still considered the best schoolboy center his
    senior year, and Indiana will be tough despite the outside shooting
    and center voids (great coaching) and could become dangerous by year's
    end.  
    
    Illinois lost their best offensive player Andy Kaufmann to dumb-bunny
    disease but has Deon Thomas and some others, but will be down.  Ditto
    for Purdue, who lost Glenn Robinson - the best player to come out a 
    Hoosierland since Larry Bird (he smoked Alan Henderson in the IHSAA
    Title game - to Prop48.  Northwestern will be Northwestern, Wisconsin
    will be spotty on the talent level but will win games with the outside
    shooting they always seem to have for some reason.
    
    Here's how it should turn out in the ONLY big-time hoops conference
    with a real Title to offer:
    
    1.  Ohio State
    2.  State
    3.  Indiana
    4.  Michigan
    5.  Iowa
    6.  Minnesota
    7.  Purdue
    8.  Illinois
    9.  Wisconsin
    10. Northwestern
    
    Of course there's a real chance that haid case Thunderburpe will become
    more than disciplinarian Randy Ayers cain put up with dropping State to
    centerless status and into 3rd or 4th in the standings.  But having a
    great one like JJ backed by superquick trey specialist Baker and NOW a
    widebody in the middle is compelling.
    
    Jud Heathcoate's great recruiting class has left him with many milirems
    of nuclear widebody meat to parlay.  Jud cain coach, but last year was
    a mystery.  Peplowski healthy, nuke forwards, and dashing guards will
    be hard to handle.
    
    Bob unredshirted Chris Reynolds in a desperation move, and it should 
    help.  The key here is either GGraham and/or Damon learning how to
    shoot with consistency.  It's likely Bob will go more with a penetration
    game looking for dish-offs to take advantage of Henderson in the paint.
    Nover may stay in the middle if he cain minimize the damage he does,
    but it might pay off better if he suffers through the huge and problematic
    learning curve young Todd Lindemann is facing.  Indiana will be good
    and bad from game-to-game but should come on turning into the home
    stretch.  
    
    Michigan is ultratalented and very young.  Combine that with "coach"
    superstupe Steve Fisher, who'll let 'em run and stay chaotic on both
    ends, and you've got a wild card on your hands.  This will be a streak
    shooting team that could be very dangerous in the tourney.  
    
    Iowa better rebound people to death, cuz everybody saw how easy it is
    to make mincemeat of this team by passing over their obsolescent full
    court press with the clinic CoachK put on Malpractice in Minneapolis 
    last March.  Good center though.
    
    Minnesota will feature freshmen around 7-2 stiff-but-serviceable Bob
    Martin.  Jumping Jack Voshon Lenard is great.  They have two soph 6-8
    forwards who cain 'bound and one is smooth with the ball in close. 
    They have maybe the best outside shooter in the league in a frosh from
    Martinsville IN (John Wooden's home town) who should light it up.  Weak
    point guard from North Carolina who should lose his job during the
    season.  Clem teaches rebounding and D, and he has his first talented
    team ever.  Look for the Golden Goofs to post some upsets.  I may not
    wear the colors to Williams this year.
    
    Big10 Tom

    
    I saw that the Buckeyes struggled over the holidays... what was
    the final 111-46 or something like that... Must have been playing
    a Division II team or a team from the SWC.

    
    Calbert Cheaney sure looks like a different ballplayer the last two 
    games(rebounding, playing D, moving without the ball).  
    
    I really didn't think he would survive after Knight sat him during 
    the basketball game with UCLA.  How in the world could any 21 year
    man, take such humiliation(insert major sarcasm)?
    
    I'm sure glad that Knight did not let him continue to play poorly, as
    it now looks like Calbert is ready to take his game to another level.
    
    Cap

    re: .-1
    
    This was predictable.  Every good game Cheaney has from here on out
    we'll be reminded about that genius BobKnight and what a brilliant move
    he made to embarass the kid on national TV.
    
    Well bull.  The kid was a **preseason All-American**.  He's
    mega-talented.  His success now has ZILCH to do with Bob's stupid
    benching, which might've cost him a 'W'.
    
    HTH,
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Possible scenario:
    
    Player A reads all his press clippings, thinks he is a superstar and
    stops doing all the little things that made him a pre-season
    All-American(i.e moving without the ball, playing team defense, 
    rebounding positioning, etc).
    
    Coach quickly recognizes this and benches player, hoping that it will 
    cause Player A to go back doing the things that made him great.
    
    Of course since we don't know any of the circumstances that led up to
    the benching(i.e events that happened in practices, falling behind on
    schoolwork, not working hard in practice or any other number of things)
    so we really can't say if the benching was justified or not, can we?
    
    But if Dean would have benched him we wouldn't have heard a peep from 
    you would we(except for saying what a brilliant move he made).
    
    Cap

    If Calbert is "mega-talented" then please reconcile his paltry career
    statistics as a small forward for rebounds, blocked shots, and assists
    in comparison with other star fowards (Larry Johnson might be a good
    example to take, he was considered "mega-talented" and is making good
    on that claim in the NBA now).
    
    Cheaney is one a the finest pure offensive players Bob's ever had.  But,
    as a complete player, he has a looooong way to go to measure up to other 
    top Bob-players such as Isiah, Ted Kitchel, Steve Green, Scott May, et
    al.
    
    You don't know what you're talking about.
    
    MrT
    

    Well, Chris' whole tirade has been predictable.  What Calvin should do
    is go out, find hissself a good women, and hit her upside the haid a
    few times.   Then Bob should do nothing about it.  That will build
    *REAL* character in old Calvin.   Then, somewhere down the road, in a
    *BIG* game and Calvin is stinking up the joint, shooting with the
    accuracy of a sawed-off shotgun, Bobby should jest let him fire away -
    damn the final results.  Now - that would be genius.
    
    JD

    > You don't know what you're talking about.
    
    Then neither does Streets & Smith, which rated Calbert Cheaney first
    team All-America.  There were only a total of ten (10) players
    selected, BTW, and you don't become an All-American by not playing
    defense, not having a floor game, and not rebounding.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

 Cap, Dean could only sit Calbert for 10 minutes a game given that he's
 a junior. Next year it will be 5 minutes a game. It's part of the 
 system. It's the way to recruit...

 "Well my son if you come to UNC I promise you that every year I will
  increase your playing time so as to improve your pro value. Why look
  at my track record." - Dean Smith...

 mike

    What would it be like if Santa was a Hoosier?

    Soup -
    
    You are way off base in your remark that you don't become an
    all-american if you don't play defense, pass, rebound, etc.  Most folks
    simply look at offense.  There have been players that have been
    all-american that were pretty dang one-dimensional.  Was Pete Maravich
    an All-American?  I surely don't remember ol' Pete playing much
    Defense, or crashing the boards...
    
    JD

    re: JD
    
    Are you comparing Calbert Cheaney's offense with Pistol Pete's?!
    
    If so, MorT's right.  Somebody around here don't know what they'b
    talking 'bout.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Regarding the Pistol.
    
    When you can average 40 ppg, I don't think any coach in the land is
    gonna be to concerned about whether you're the best defensive whiz in
    the world.  Also, last I checked, guards didn't get graded on their
    ability to "crash the boards".  Unless of course your MAGIC! :-)
    
    WILDCAT

    You're mixed-up again, ACCrisp.  I'm fully aware of S&S and other
    mags having posted Calbert as a 1st or 2nd team All-America.  So
    what?  I was addressing the efficacy of Calbert's floor game in 
    connection with his much deserved benching, which, btw, Calbert
    said he deserved and accepted with understanding.
    
    History is littered with A-A's who were offense-only players.  You
    know who they are.  If you don't, just follow the NBA's media during
    their camps.  Then you'll read quotes from coaches scouts and GMs
    talking about how the newly-acquired A-A "needs to learn how to play
    defense" or "how to fill the passing lanes" or "how to maintain 
    position underneath" or "how to help out on weak side D" or "how to
    make the adjustment to full time man-to-man" or "how to hit the glass
    on offense" or "how to fight his way through picks" or "how to set
    picks" and so on.
    
    Calbert was judged and benched based on his real-world performance with
    the floor game.  He's been in and out of the dog house both with the
    press and the Indiana media for two years now for disappearing on
    defense and on the boards.  He's also been busted for trying to showboat
    and trying to go coast-to-coast with the ball, which he tried against
    Ohio State only to have it stripped at midcourt thus blowing last year's
    double OT loss to a superior Buckey team.
    
    In sum, he's been sat down before and he deserved it.  Based on the
    fack that Calbert understands he's screwing up and Bob's track record
    for player development, I look for a well-rounded Cheaney by his senior
    year.
    
    I believe this cuz if Bob could mould the gawky slow-footed Jay Edwards 
    into a serviceable defensive guard and rebounder anything's possible.
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom 

Just to refresh the memory. 

>================================================================================
>Note 15.483                    Big Ten Basketball                     483 of 490
>RHETT::KNORR "Carolina Blue"                          9 lines   4-DEC-1991 12:10
>       -< Suffice to say Cheaney's the only one who'll be humiliated... >-
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    > You don't know what you're talking about.
>    
>    Then neither does Streets & Smith, which rated Calbert Cheaney first
>    team All-America.  There were only a total of ten (10) players
>    selected, BTW, and you don't become an All-American by not playing
>    defense, not having a floor game, and not rebounding.
    
    
>    - ACC Chris
 
So Chris - notice - you make assertion about what makes an all-american.

>Note 15.486                    Big Ten Basketball                     486 of 490
>RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Macaulay Culkin makes me puke!"   10 lines   4-DEC-1991 12:53
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Soup -
    
<    You are way off base in your remark that you don't become an
<    all-american if you don't play defense, pass, rebound, etc.  Most folks
>    simply look at offense.  There have been players that have been
>    all-american that were pretty dang one-dimensional.  Was Pete Maravich
>    an All-American?  I surely don't remember ol' Pete playing much
<    Defense, or crashing the boards...
    
>    JD

Notice - no comparison to Cheaney (who isn't even mentioned).

              <<< CAM::$1$DUA5:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SPORTS_91.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 15.490                    Big Ten Basketball                     490 of 491
RIPPLE::DEVLIN_JO "Macaulay Culkin makes me puke!"   21 lines   4-DEC-1991 14:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chris -
    
    Get real willya bud.
    
    No where did I compare or say that Cheaney was the offensive equal of
    the Pistol.
        
    Lets refresh that baby blue memory.  You said that no way does a person
    make all-american unless they excel at all aspects of the game.  I
    called you on it, saying that isn't always the case - and that of all
    the aspects of the game, folks are most impressed with offensive
    numbers.  I then used Pistol Pets as an EXAMPLE (not a comparison to
    Cheaney) of a player that was an all-american, yet did not excel in all
    aspects of the game - thereby proving your assertion false.  And I'm
    sure Pistol Pete isn't the only all-american that was on the team based
    on pure offensive abilities.  
    
    So, once again you make a general statement, get called on it - and
    then try to squirm out of it by twisting the original note around.
    
    jd

    Just what in the heck are you going on about, JD?  You're worried about
    the boat needing a new paint job when it's just struck an iceburg and
    is settling to the bottom of the Atlantic.
    
    Why not address (specifically and directly, if possible) the following:
    
    A. According to college hoops experts, Calbert Cheaney is one of the
       TEN (10) best players in the USA.
    
    B. Despite not even playing that badly, Fight (tm) sat him on his
       butt for almost the entire 2nd half against UCLA, therefore
       eliminating any possibility for Indiana to win.
    
    The *only* reasonable defense I've read from anybody is from Cap,
    who agrees with me that Knight's inexplicably benching was, indeed, 
    inexplicable, and that there must be forces at work that we don't know 
    about.  (i.e. missed class, injury, etc.)  If this proves to be the
    case I assure you I will offer complete and forthright apologies all
    the way around.
    
    
    - ACC Chris
    

    I'm not obfuscating, oh Soupster.  You made a calim that you don't make
    all-american unless you can play good de, rebound, etc.  I called you
    on it.  You then tried to claim I compared Cheaney to Maravich - and I
    proved you wrong on that point.
    
    So now   you are in spin control at its finest.  You couldn't grasp
    that someone would play your game of calling folks on generalities -
    and you don't have a clue on how to answer (BTW - all you needed to say
    is you were wrong, and let it go...) so you are spinning and spinning
    and bringing up Bob's benching of Cheaney - which has nothing to do
    with your general claim about All-Americans or my rebuttal.
    
    The floor's waxed Soup - start spinning some more.
    
    JD

�    History is littered with A-A's who were offense-only players.  You
�    know who they are.  If you don't, just follow the NBA's media during
�    their camps.  Then you'll read quotes from coaches scouts and GMs
�    talking about how the newly-acquired A-A "needs to learn how to play
�    defense" or "how to fill the passing lanes" or "how to maintain 
�    position underneath" or "how to help out on weak side D" or "how to
�    make the adjustment to full time man-to-man" or "how to hit the glass
�    on offense" or "how to fight his way through picks" or "how to set
�    picks" and so on.

You mean like when former Hornets coach Gene Littles wondered out loud why 
JR Reid didn't know the fundamental "screen-and-roll" play ???

Heck, and that's an *offensive* play that our young A-A didn't know.   The 
mind can only boggle at what he didn't (and still doesn't) know about big 
time defense.

Bob Hunt

    >Cap, who agrees with me that Knight's inexplicably benching, was,
    >indeed, inexplicable.
    
    Shameless.  Cap agreed to no such inexplication.  In fack, Cap
    *explained* the benching, and quite well thank you.
    
    You're least worst off by just leaving it as you originally framed it:
    
    1) That this was the first star benching ever
    2) That Calbert wasn't playing that badly
    3) That it all happened cuz Bob is insane.
    
    At least then, with the exception of 1) above, you're in the element
    you like best, that is, pure subjectivity.
    
    Btw, who are *you* to carp on so about substitutions?  Need I remind
    you of 93 substitutions in a certain Final Four upset loss and the role
    it played?  Where Bob's benching made perfect sense, this unnamed
    "coach's" 92 benchings were madness when the clutch was down.
    
    MrT

    
    Chris, let me ask you an honest question.  What do you care if Knight
    did indeed sacrifice an opening game victory to drive home a lesson
    for later on?  Weren't you crediting Smith with some such genius last
    year over a decision on man-to-man versus zone in an early-season game?
    What's the difference?  (And don't bring up that humiliation nonsense,
    since we've already heard that Cheaney agreed with the benching,
    and it's widely recognized that such an action is effective in the
    personal development of young players in spite of that kiss-and-make-up
    psychobabble you and Wildcat have been throwing around...)
    
    glenn
    

    > it's widely recognized that such an action is effective ...
    
    "Widely recognized", glenn?  There's not a coach in the USA who
    would've benched Cheaney for almost an entire half like Knight did
    based on his performance.  (Which wasn't that bad.)   None.  No one.
    Nada.  
    
    The fact that Cheaney "agreed with the benching" was a MrT quote, which
    means it's inheriently unreliable.  Even if he really did say this it 
    doesn't surprise me.  Knight's got him in_a sleeper hold, eligibility-wise.
    He either plays by Knights rules or effectively ends his collegiate
    career, since transferring at this point is a desperate option.  
    
    
    re: MorT
    
    Cap has *repeatedly* admonished me for not being fully aware of the
    facts surrounding the Cheaney benching.  Why else would he say this
    unless he himself drew the same conclusion I did.  Namely, that Bob
    had some other reason to intentionally not try to win a game, cause
    Calbert sure wasn't playing that poorly.
    
    
    re: JD
    
    I congratulate you JD for snookering me into_a whirlwind of
    obfuscation.  In the battle of trivial nonsense, you're the winner.
    Sadly (for you) though we must increment your "L" column in this
    Bob war, cause his bench coaching in the UCLA game was horrid and
    his handling of his best player inexcusable.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris -
    
    Do you know every coach in the USA personally - and absolutely ,
    positively *know* as *fact* that not one other coach in the USA would
    have benched Cheaney?  Or is that your *opinion* that every other coach
    would have let poor ol Calvin play?  Remember, Chris - opinions aren't
    fact.  Seems that you are guilty of the same crimes you blam others
    for....
    
    In fact - this whole thang is based on your opinion, and your main main
    Dick Vitale.   That, my amigo, does not make it gospel.  And isn't it
    your opinion that Calvin wasn't playing badly, against others opinion
    that he wasn't playing all-around ball - and that opinion includes Bob
    Knight - he of 3 titles, a gold, and HOF credentials.   
    
    And nice double pump spin move admitting you were wrong - and then
    somehow tying that to the loss to UCLA.   Spin control that Ronny,
    georgie and Deanie would simply admire!
    
    Kudos.
    
    JD

    You'd make a great lawyer, JD ...
    
    
    
    But a tewible basketball analyst.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Tsk, Tsk, Tsk gentlemen.  Let's see if I can say this so that everyone
    grasps it.  
    
    Ok, real slow now, ready?
    
    As stated previously (pause)... Bob Knight could've done a (pause)...
    
    much better job of (pause)... teaching if he had taught (pause)...
    
    young Calbert during the game (pause)... rather than waiting (pause)...
    
    several days later in practice.
    
    It really has nothing to do with the young Calbert's emotional health. 
    It's fact that he would've learned more however if Knight had used the
    game as a teaching opportunity.  Sit him for a few minutes, and then
    bring him back in the game to *LEARN*.
    
    That's the end of todays lesson.  Next week, will explain why they took
    the bottom out of the peach basket!
    
    Many :-)'s
    
    WILDCAT

    
    Chris,
    
    If you going to speak on my behalf than please don't lie....
    
    Coaches bench star players all the time(it happens in HS, it happens
    in College, it happens Pro Sports, it happens in Rec league's, etc).
    This usually occurs due to a lack of effort or lack of performance
    either during the game or it is built up over the course of
    time(previous practices, games, etc).  The goal of a move like this
    is to show the player that if they are not going to play up to their
    capabilities and provide 100% effort than they are going to sit the
    bench.  IU was not going to win with Cheaney playing that poorly.
    He was playing extremely poorly on defense and was not moving at all
    without the ball(thus not getting any open shots).
    
    My premise is that Cheaney was playing poorly(which he was) and that
    you can't make the case that Knight sole mission was to humiliate
    Cheaney without knowing ANY OF THE FACTS that might have led up to
    this benching.   Being ignorant of the possibility of other issues
    involved in this situation, I just wanted to remind you to look at
    the whole picture.
    
    You can keep up with the Knight humiliating Cheaney charade if you
    want, it doesn't bother me any.  It just gives alot of people the
    opportunity to make you look bad.
    
    Cap
    

    
    Wildcat that is a perfectly viable teaching alternative and perhaps
    Knight should have done it that way, but since we don't know what
    motivates Calbert(and we should presume Knight knows since he has 
    molded him into the player he is), than we really can't knock Knight's
    coaching techniques unless Calbert goes into the tank this year(and 
    judging by his last two performances, I'd say Knight's technique worked
    quite well).
    
    Chris, on the other hand, took this opportunity to try and paint this
    move as sinister and that it would affect Calbert's psyche, which
    is a completely inaccurate statement without knowledge of all the facts
    within this situation.
    
    Cap

    Cap, you made a good point about us not knowing what motivates Calbert. 
    Perhaps he had gotten a swelled head from press clippings.
    
    Anyway... I'll get to see the boys in person this Saturday at the
    Hoosier Dome.
    
    GO CATS!
    
    WILDCAT

    Rope, you're living in Kaintuck or Mecca?  Wish I could be there.
    It's on national TV.  The UK-IU hoops rivalry may be the most
    storied, longlived, and bitter in the game.
    
    Hey, if you're in Kaintuck watch out.  Word from Mecca is that
    the Indiana State Troopers are gonna be running a roadblock at
    the I-65 bridge over the Ohio checking for passports and green
    teef'.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Big10 Bigot Tom

� Weren't you crediting Smith with some such genius last year over a 
� decision on man-to-man versus zone in an early-season game?

It was not an early season game.   It was the final regular season game of 
the year against hated Duke at home in the Deandome with the ACC regular 
season title at stake.   And it was Senior Day ... On TV for all to see ...

And Snuff said afterwards (a loss) that he refused to play zone because 
he's too stubborn to do so in Chapel Hill and because he thought they 
needed to work on their man-to-man.

And, of course, the Faithful all opened up their hymnals to the same old 
dog-eared page.

Bob Hunt 

    Wildcat,
    
    Have a blast, remember to wear red and white.... :-)
    
    Should be a very exciting game(I love watching games that involve
    Pitino because his teams are exciting to watch play).  It will be 
    interesting to see what Pitino devises to free up his 3-point shooters
    for easy shots(a problem they had the last time they played IU).
    
    Cap

    Chris -
    
    So - you get called to the carpet a couple of times trying to pass off
    your biased opinions as facts - and all you can come up with is a
    faintly veiled insult thrown my way.    Nice going bub.  So - still
    wondering - how do you know that *every* other coach in the USA would
    not have benched Calvin?  
    
    JD

    It seems that Rick knows he has a nuclear widebody mogambo stud in
    Mashburn and is gonna use him.  That could be a bigger threat to IU.
    Allegedly 6-8 no particularly strong, quick, coordinated, quick-jumping,
    good-shooting, good-ball-handling, or otherwise skilled Matt Nover will
    look to survive against Mash on D and to not turn the ball over more
    than five times on offense.  If Mash runs wild jamming and blocking
    shots and rebounding and passing that will put IU on their heels and 
    finally open up the trey too.
    
    However, if Nover survives the IU system could hold up nicely.  Also,
    if he flops - as he did many times last year against top centers, Bob
    might opt for the 3-guard lineup and take on the Mildcats with quickness.
    
    Note: Eric Anderson and Damon Bailey did not start against Notre Dame.
    My speculation is that Damon was sat for his poor outside shooting and
    inability to do anything on the floor against UCLA's quick guards. 
    Don't know why Anderson was sat.  Quick defensive-minded Chris Reynolds
    started for Damon and budding star Alan Henderson started for Anderson.
    
    Maybe he should start Anderson in the middle.  He'd get into fould
    trouble against MonsterMash but he'd be a heckuva lot better than the 
    awful Matt Nover...
    
    MrT

    'T, I suspect that you'll see Anderson at his usual forward spot on
    offense, then on defense he will guard the Monster Mash.  UK still has
    major problems at the other two spots on the front line.
    
    Also, Tuesday, UK lost a major player.  Starting guard Jeff Brassow,
    the best player in the motion offense was lost for the season with a
    serious knee injury. :-(  Brassow's loss will be tough to overcome.
    
    WILDCAT

 >   Also, Tuesday, UK lost a major player.  Starting guard Jeff Brassow,
 >   the best player in the motion offense was lost for the season with a
 >   serious knee injury. :-(  Brassow's loss will be tough to overcome.
    
   Richie Farmer stepped in and filled the void rather effectively last night
   I'd say. I like Farmer I think he brings a more well rounded game to the
   floor than Brassow. He is more of a liability defensively though...

  Mash warmed up with 28 last night T, think Matt's shaking??

    Thanks T,
    I needed to hear that IU started out wif one hand tied loosely
    behind the back whilst slappin' poor Irish 'round with big
    1st half lead THEN bringin' in studs to slap Irish 'round more
    in second half. 32 points, tis embarraskin. Man, and I cain't wait
    till this squad travels to Lexington. Whew.
    
    MikeL
    

1.  If winning - Declare glorious victory.  Remind your opponent of this 
debate repeatedly during every other debate.  Attempt to prolong the debate. 

2.  If evenup - Declare glorious victory.  Quietly move to the next debate.

3.  If losing - Stall.  Ignore your opponent's points.  Complicate the issue.
Reinvoke old won debates.  Change the subject.  At a later time, declare 
glorious victory.

How is this related to Big Ten Basketball you ask?


	Sounds like the recent Bob vs. Dean discussions


;-)  8-)

Scott

P.S. My tongue-in-cheek aggreement with John Hendry.  The discussion can be 
interesting, but can get old real fast.

    re: MikeL
    
    This is the worst Irish team since Digger had to use football players
    way back when.  Awful, but they'll get better.   Bob ran his players
    cuz IU is in disarray as far as who's gonna step forward and run the
    system in several roles.
    
    re: Scott and John Hendry
    
    Let me be blunt.  Those of us involved in the Grate Debate don't give
    a damn what you think of the rathole.  If you don't like it, butt out.
    That's why we have N.U. keys.  Use 'em.  Quit clogging our hoops notes
    up with non-sports-related egotistical political diatribes about what
    great writers you are.
    
    MrT

    re .506
    
     >>   Rope, you're living in Kaintuck or Mecca?  Wish I could be there.
     >>   It's on national TV.  The UK-IU hoops rivalry may be the most
     >>   storied, longlived, and bitter in the game.
    
    'T, I've lived in both.  However, I'm currently located in Dayton, OH
    (YAWN) :-)  Certainly agree with you about the rivalry.  The games are
    always hotly contested.  It may be the most important game of the year
    for the fans of both programs.  As far as UK goes, the only other teams I
    like to  see them beat consistently is Louisville, and maybe LSU.  Any
    win over IU is sweet for UK and vice versa.
    
    re .508
    
        Wildcat,
    
        Have a blast, remember to wear red and white.... :-)
    
        Should be a very exciting game(I love watching games that involve
        Pitino because his teams are exciting to watch play).  It will be
        interesting to see what Pitino devises to free up his 3-point
    shooters
        for easy shots(a problem they had the last time they played IU).
    
        Cap
    
    Cap, blue and white and you've got a deal!  Should be a very intense
    ballgame.
    
     - WILDCAT

T,

	Anderson didn't get the start because of poor work habits in practice.
	According to Ellenberger, Eric was so fidgety sitting next to him on
	the bench that he could hardly concentrate on the game, and told him
	that Knight had gotten his attention.

	Bailey seems to still be feeling the effects of the foot injury over
	the summer, and the back(?) injury that forced him to sit out the
	game against the Soviets.  Even if he was healthy, Reynolds would
	be starting (Knight says he's their best guard), and Graham has 
	improved enough that Bailey might not be able to beat him out for
	the starting spot.

	Defending the 3s will be the key against the Mildcats, I expect.  
	When the 3s don't work, the rest of their offense seems to fall apart.

tom

    Any word on Lindemann's progress?  I see that Nover is still starting
    and getting the minutes, but that Lindemann's been doing backup time.
    
    But Alan Henderson... ahhhh.  Probably the best player at IU since
    Isiah.  We'll see.
    
    MrT

    >  <<< Note 15.517 by CSOA1::SIMPSON_T "In search of mythical kings" >>>
    >                     -< Cheaney had 4 fouls, btw >-
    
    
    Well we finally have a good reason why Cheaney sat(outside of his
    horrible play), he sat in the 2nd half due to foul problems and the
    game was not within reach by the time Knight was ready to send him 
    back in.
    
    Knight probably felt that if they could have come within 10 by the 
    10 minute mark than Cheaney could be brought back in, however the
    spread was 20 or so points at that time, so why risk injury to your
    star player in a game that you are going to most likely lose anyway.
    
    Now let's see if ACChris is a man of his word(he says he always admits
    to mistakes and offers a public apology).  
    
    Get in here, Chris.....
    
    

    Cap, why did wait a full 2 weeks to offer this piece of obvious
    evidence ? 
    
    Asuming of course, that it really cain be considered evidence ...
    
    Doc

    Really, Doc.  Besides the fact that I don't think this is correct. 
    Maybe Bob *thought* he had four (4) fouls, but to the best of my
    recollection Cheaney didn't have 4.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>                         -< Cheaney had 4 fouls, btw >-

        Cap,

	Don't you think this refers to the Notre Dame game, since the
	rest of the note also refers to the IU-Irish game ?

    Doc,
    
    For once, please, show me you can add something intellegent to one
    of these conversations.....
    
    ACChris, 
    
    Good person to align yourself with(Doc), really helps out your
    credibility..... :-)
    
    I think a public expression of your error is required here(at least
    if your BIG enough to admit when you are wrong).
    
    Here's what we have:
    
    o A noter enters in the fact that Cheaney had 4 fouls(which I believe
      is correct because Cheaney did start the 2nd half against UCLA),
      which would more than justify Calbert sitting.
    
    o Cheaney for his skills was having a terrible game, shooting poorly
      without the ball, not moving without the ball on offense, getting
      burned on defense and committing stupid turnovers.
    
    o We have a direct quote that Anderson sat against Notre Dame due to
      poor practice habits and work, something that could have justified
      Knight sitting Cheaney.
    
    You have accused Knight of intentionally trying to humiliate Cheaney
    on national TV, although you can produce absolutely no evidence of this
    happening.  Also there was no outcry about this in the national papers
    or the media.  We only had Dick Vitale say that Knight could not win
    without Cheaney, but he did not mention anything about humiliating
    Cheaney.
    
    Now it's amazing how cowardly you are in dealing with this situations
    and other questions that have been asked of you(the so-called objective
    analyst).  
    
    - You have failed to document any facts behind Knight's supposed 
      humiliation(don't say past behaviour because I also asked you
      to document any incident in the last 3 years that paints Knight in a 
      bad light).
    
    - You have failed to answer even the simplest questions concerning 
      the failures of your favorite program, falsely claiming that they
      have been answered in the past.
    
    - You fail to acknowledge an obvious mistake.  I'll be the first to 
      admit that Knight was wrong if he tried to humiliate Cheaney, but
      I don't think he did and you have offered not even one piece of
      evidence that supports your crazed accusations.
    
    Now either offer up evidence that Knight did this on purpose or show
    us your a man of your words and admit your error.
    
    Cap
     

        >Cap,

	>Don't you think this refers to the Notre Dame game, since the
	>rest of the note also refers to the IU-Irish game ?

    Yes that might be the case but it since no reference was made to
    Cheaney in that note and since this note has been dedicated lately to his
    benching, I assumed that this was the case.
    
    If not I was wrong in my assumption and I'll admit it, it still doesn't
    stop the fact that Chris has offered up no evidence that Knight was
    purposely trying to humiliate Cheaney.  
    
    Having 4 fouls would just be one variable in what might have caused the
    extended benching, it might be simpler if I just ask the simple
    question:
    
    ACChris, Do you know any of what went on prior to or during the game
    that may or may not have justified Calbert's benching and do you have
    any evidence that Knight was purposedly attempting to humiliate
    Cheaney?
    
    Let's see if he has the backbone to answer that simple question.
    
    Cap

    Haw haw haw!!!!1111
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    
    I have not admitted that was a mistake, no question was asked about
    Cheaney concerning the ND game, he has only been mentioned in
    conjunction with the UCLA game so it is most likely that he was
    referring to the UCLA game.
    
    I had already thought of this premise before I entered in my note
    and if I was wrong in my assumption I will admit.
    
    Anyway if it thrills you to gloat over false victories so be it,
    I'm still waiting for you to grow a backbone and answer the questions
    put forth or can't you have an intellegent, objective basketball
    conversation?
    
    Cap

All,

	Sorry for any confusion.  I thought it would be obvious that I was
	referring to the UCLA game.

Chris,

	I *HAD* a tape of the game and verified this after coming back from a
	trip and reading the plethora of notes concerning poor humiliated
	Calbert.  Can't say that I have it now, though.  Not exactly a game
	I'd want to watch over, and over, and over.



	By the way, I in no way consider this evidence for anything, since
	I don't have any desire to take part in this "discussion".  It's
	simply a fact that hopefully will help people move on to better
	arguments.


tom

	>By the way, I in no way consider this evidence for anything, since
	>I don't have any desire to take part in this "discussion".  It's
	>simply a fact that hopefully will help people move on to better
	>arguments.
    
    I agree 100%, thanks for the inputs and the dagger that killed off
    this charade that was being played.
    
    Cap

    Seems funny Tom that ESPN never picked up on this fact.  I never heard
    a single mention of Cheaney being in foul trouble.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Tom,
    
    Any word on how Reynolds and Meeks played against Notre Dame.  I think 
    they are the key to breaking Kentucky's pressure.  Also has Greg
    Graham's ballhandling skills improved any?  It looks like he's improved
    an outside shot which probably would keep Bailey on the bench.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Cap

    
>    Seems funny Tom that ESPN never picked up on this fact.  I never heard
>    a single mention of Cheaney being in foul trouble.
     
    Well, Crisp, you know how accurate and thorough your buddy Dick
    Vitale can be when he gets on one of his tangents, what with the 
    likes of his assessment of the Big East as the superior conference in
    the country and of Eric Montross being the wrong player in the wrong 
    system...
    
    glenn
      

    Never said ESPN/Vitale are unimpeachable glenn, although I will say I
    find Dickie to be a breath of fresh air in terms of speaking openly and
    honestly.  (A rare breed on the tube, to say the least ...)
    
    What we have here is a factual discrepency that needs correction.  *IF*
    it turns out Cheaney was indeed in foul trouble and got yanked cause of
    that (and didn't reenter the game cause IU was already blown out) then:
    
    o I'm right about Cheaney not playing that badly.
    
    o MrT is dead wrong about Cheaney playing badly.
    
    o BobKnight made a poor coaching move to not get Calbert back in the
      game before it was too late.
    
    All things considered, I'd be more than happy to admit I erred in
    saying Fight (tm) was trying to humiliate Calbert.  (Again, assuming
    somebody can lay their hands on the game tape to verify the 4 fouls...)
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Haa.  Turns out that once again ACCrock was caught operating without
    a clue on what he was blabbing about and he got cold-busted.  And not
    only won't he admit his most egregious error, he's implying that the
    superobjective t_Simpson is a lie.  Sad.
    
    Hey, Crock-o'-Holic: You ever gonna answer Cap's fine questions?  Or
    are you skeert.  [no and yes]
    
    Now that we've managed to put this little imbroglio behind us, MrT
    wants to axe a_overarching question:
    
    	Do you think Bob will stick with the awful Matt Nover or 
    	will he throw in the towel and move over to starting a
        3-guard lineup?
    
    re: Minnesota
    
    Look for this squad to pull some upsets.  6-4 frosh Voshon Lenard is
    causing a stir with his play, 6-8 240 widebody Randy Carter is racking
    up boards and tossing in points from the paint, and 7-2 senior Bob
    Martin's listless play has ended with his diagnosis and treatment of
    a sever iron deficiency.  Townsend Orr is playing very well, and so are
    most of the frosh, my fave being 6-9 small forward Chad Kolander.
    
    Clem cain coach, and these guys are gonna roll.
    
    re: Michigan
    
    The numbers for the "best frosh class ever" over their first games
    have been mind-blowing.  17 rebounds by Chris Webber?  Whoa.
    
    MrT

    'T, why would IU go to a three guard lineup?  I suspect you'll see
    Henderson starting and Anderson moving to center.  True, may not be the
    ideal slot for Anderson, but many teams including UK would kill to have
    a player of Eric's ability in the middle.
    
    WILDCAT

    Dunno for sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Bob is committed
    to playing Eric at forward full-time, finally, to give him the best
    shot at the NBA.  Anderson's sacrificed a lot in terms of stats and
    physical punishment by playing in the middle.  Also, when up against
    bigger and/or quicker middlement Eric usually gets into early foul
    trouble.  He's just not a good center.  And when he goes to the bench
    late in the first half with 3 PFs it has a nasty effect on the team's
    overall play, especially at offensive end.  On the other hand, IU does
    have some depth at forward now with Alan, so maybe Bob'll do it.
    
    I agree, I'd prefer to see Anderson at center.  If not that, then 
    play Lindemann full-time and suffer through the learning curve.
    
    But if anything thus far it looks like Anderson/Henderson/Cheany 
    splitting time at the two F slots and Nover/Lindemann in the post.
    
    Yucky.
    
    MrT

Chris,

	ESPN reported it as Cheaney's fourth when the foul occurred, but
	as far as I could tell Vitale and the other guy never mentioned
	it during the rest of the game.

Cap,

	Reynolds is playing very well, although the shooting is still a real
	problem.  The coaching staff thinks Meeks is playing a lot better
	just trying to keep up with him.  

	Graham's made a lot of improvements, but so far this year they're
	still keeping the ball out of his hands as much as possible.

tom

    I can understand why you'd wanna drop the whole thing MorT, seeings how
    you thought he got benched cause of horrendous play!  Haw!!
    
    Since ESPN never reported on the four (4) fouls I made the logical
    assumption that Bob was in the midst of one of his notorious
    and well-documented humiliation campaigns.  Instead it just turns out
    that he did a lousy coaching job.  Oh well ...
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    We don't want to drop anything.  It just turns out that you made a 
    horrible mistake and in light a your repeated claims to "objective
    analyst" status we expect you to admit your mistake and maybe even
    apologize for the way you handled things.
    
    Btw, in keeping with things turning out the way MrT had predicted
    them UCLA is now the 2nd ranked team in the country.  And rightfully
    so, they're probably the most talented team out there.  And they have
    the best shot at nabbing the Title from the nation's best team, the
    Duke Blue Devils led by pretty boy Teutonic dream boat Christian Laettner 
    and that ugly little Irish point guard.
    
    MrT

    The thing that worries me about tomorrows game is the play of John
    Pelphrey.  He just hasn't looked good at all the last two games.  I
    believe UK can win tomorrow if they shoot well (at least 50%).  One big
    problem in my mind could be Alan Henderson.  If you assume that Mash
    has to take Anderson, who takes Henderson?  One of the Frosh
    (Timberlake or Rhodes)?  That along with how well they do defensively
    on Cheney may determine the outcome of the game.
    
    My buddy and I will leave Dayton farily early tomorrow morning so that
    we are in Indy for any pre-game festivities, etc.  The Hoosier dome
    will be electric tomorrow.  IU-UK is truly an exciting contest no
    matter how each team is doing.  I'll give a report Monday morning.
    
    WILDCAT

    > horrible mistake
    
    Speaking of horrible mistakes, what about *yours*, insisting that
    Calbert was having a **TERRIBLE** game and therefore wholly deserved
    a 2nd half benching.  
    
    
    > horrible mistake
    
    Speaking of horrible mistakes, what about *Bob's*, who left Calbert
    on the bench just long enough for IU to never have a chance to win
    the game.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris, I believe CBS will be televising the game at 3:45.  Can't figure
    the wierd start time.
    
    WILDCAT

    Re: a few back...
    
    Rhodes...Isn't he a senior in HS who has committed to KU?
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    >horrible mistake
    
    >>... what about yours?
    
    Whaddya blabbing about now Crockmeister.  Calbert was having a awful
    game, had four fouls, was deservedly benched, and by the time to come
    back the game was a out a reach blowout so why risk injuring Calbert 
    when you could give some gbage time to young Henderson?
    
    Y mouthed off about Bob being a insane maniac and didn't even know
    he was burdened with 4 fouls.
    
    Shame on you for your abject inability to admit the error a your ways
    and to apologize.
    
    MrT

    Dick Vitale's pre-season #1-ranked Indiana Hoosiers dropped their 2nd
    game of the year this Saturday, losing a virtual home game to the hated
    Kentucky Wildcats by a deuce.
    
    Just thought y'all would want to know.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    The Kaintuck game was a good one, but, sadly, it was total and bitter
    vindication for poor MrT:
    
    Billy Packer: "It should be obvious to any IU fan what the two major
    		   weaknesses of the Hoosier team are."  
    
    Billy Packer: "Indiana doesn't have a center."
    
    Bob:	  "We really don't have an inside game to speak of, so we
    		   worked on defense to keep the ball from Mashburn if
    		   possible while jumping out on the three point shooters,
    		   and looked to get the ball to Cheany for good shots from
    		   the wing."
    
    Billy Packer: "Indiana needs somebody to step up and hit the perimeter
    		   shots.  They're getting good shots from outside, but
    		   don't seem to have a guy who can hit them except for 
    		   Cheany.  They're not a good outside shooting team at all."
    
    Billy Packer: "Mashburn is dominating inside.  What's going to happen to
 		   Indiana this year against teams with big people inside?"
    
    Big10 Tom:	  "Told you so."

    Bob may have answered my question about what type of lineup he'll
    go with to mask the Hoosiers' obvious talent shortfalls.  He started
    forward Eric Anderson at center and 6-2 guard Damon Bailey at forward,
    thus opening up the 2nd guard spot for Chris Reynolds.  This left them
    running: 
    
    	     F -  6-6
    	     F -  6-2
	     C -  6-8
    	     G -  6-1
    	     G -  6-4
    
    This worked well against Pitino's trapping press, but Bob was forced 
    to bring in Matt Nover when Mash starting tearing the place up, twice
    actually getting the eye-popping mismatch against 6-0 Jamaal Meeks on
    the post and turning 3-point plays on both.  Pitino initally started 
    out working the outside game but soon recognized that Mash could have
    his way against the small front-line IU was using, especially where
    switches were forced... so he started running a motion offense on the
    baseline to force switches and it worked like a charm.  
    
    Pitino from the outset challenged IU's guards to shoot, which also was
    smart.  
    
    I steal take some comfort in the fack that IU was able to go down to
    the wire against a fine team like Kaintuck with a Monster like Mash.
    
    But if the Hoosiers aren't going to come up with a viable center in 
    Lindemann (and he must be pretty bad if he's unable to beat out Nover,
    who when recruited was viewed as a 3rd string foward type) then they
    MUST come up with somebody who cain shoot from the outside besides 
    Calbert.
    
    Also, it's looking more and more like Damon's threatened with a 2nd
    string role behind Reynolds and GGraham, who are far superior athletes.
    
    Big10 Tom

    MrT:
    
    While watching the game, I noticed that on several occasions Anderson
    and Cheney made shots about a foot inside the three point line.  Pitino
    jumps down the players throats if they take a shot inside the line. 
    His philosophy is if you're that close, take a step back, and get the
    three.  Both Anderson and Cheney can hit the shot.  Why not take it?
    
    WILDCAT

    Ah, apologetics any philosopher would be proud of.  Only thing I
    haven't heard explained though is how a team that finished in the top 5
    in the USA last year and didn't lose anybody but did add one of the
    finest frosh in the land cain suddenly have so many horrible weaknesses
    that would put a 'W' over a CYO team appear uncertain.
    
    Could you explain this for me, MrT?
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Chris,
    
    How can you ask any questions of anyone, when you so cowardly take
    the back door(by giving excuses, refusing to answer, etc) when any 
    objective question is put forth for you to answer.
    
    Simply Amazing....
    

    Wildcat,
    
    I don't know why IU is not shooting the three this year(as it's always
    been a part of IU's offense).  One thing that might be happening, is
    that Bob likes to use the schedule prior to the Big10 season to work
    the kinks out of the offense and defense.  Anyway, failure to step out
    the extra foot for the trey probably cost them the game.  I wouldn't
    want Anderson consistently trying threes but Cheaney should be shooting
    them.
    
    Kentucky had a great defensive scheme on Reynolds and Meeks(by backing
    off them).  Knight should have had them shooting those shots in the
    2nd half just to see if they could make them and force Kentucky to
    guard them.
    
    Thoughts from the game:
    
    o Two good comebacks by IU, showed they do have the ability to stop
      the other team defensively when needed.
    
    o IU's interior defense is terrible, Mashburn was able to establish 
      position with ease.  I don't see an answer here unless Lindeman can
      play.  I think IU will play more zone this year than ever....
    
    o Outside shooting is a problem, hopefully Pat Graham can come back
      from his foot injury.
    
    o Good move by the coaches to keep the freshman out of this game.  From
      a defensive standpoint, it was a fascinating game to watch(as IU and
      Kentucky play the best man-to-man help defenses in the country).
    
    o I was happy with Greg Graham's aggressiveness in taking the ball to
      the hoop, but he should not be putting up shots outside of 15 feet.
    
    o Damon Bailey looks like he lost some quickness(he wasn't that fast
      to begin with), does anyone know if he's still having problems with
      his feet.
    
    o Pitino coached a very strong game, Knight coached well but should
      have had Reynolds and Meeks shooting more.
    

    Rope, it depends on the flow leading up to the shot.  In Kaintuck's
    case they were running and then quick-reversing the ball to the weak
    side for the trey.  This leaves the Kaintuck with sufficient time to
    step back if necessary.  It's harder if you're a_inside main who's
    coming across the lane through traffic with a nearby defender,
    sometimes more than one.
    
    >Could you exlain this for me, MrT?
    
    Sure!
    
    First, anybody who believes that IU was among the five best teams going
    into last year's tourney is crazy.  They had the same holes then and it
    showed against Coastal Carolina, the FSU rioters, and Kansas.
    
    Second, Alan Henderson is in his fourth game.  He needs to be developed.
    He's not at full power yet in terms of net benefit to the team.  Ergo,
    your question is rather stupid.  You should defer until the tourney
    (assuming Indiana makes the tourney, and I think they will) until calling
    Bob's account due on the added dimension Henderson gives, which is the
    inside defensive and rebounding presence and shooting they so clealry
    lacked last year. 
    
    Third, Pat Graham is down with a broken foot.  He's the only guard on
    the team with the potential to develop into a fine outside shooter. 
    He's not too phsycial and is very slow of foot but he has a fine stroke.
    Pat also served as a third forward last year even though he's really
    a guard, and gave them a_offensive option when they collapsed over onto
    Cheaney and/or Eric.  I.e., Pat Graham is not playing yet this year,
    and may indeed sit out the entire year.
    
    Fourth, as Billy Packer repeatedly stated, Bob will make marginal
    sacrifices in preconference games to benefit preparation for the Big10
    schedule.  He did this Saturday by not playing Henderson for more
    minutes.  He's going to phase him in.  Beyond that, Bob's teams have
    historically shown steady improvement as the season progresses.  So,
    again, your comparison of an end-of-season Bob squad with a beginning-
    of-season Bob squad is a useless mistake.
    
    I cain see why you'd tend to make such a useless mistake, though, given
    that Snuffer's squads typically play at about the same level over an
    entire season.
    
    >apologetics any philospher would be proud of.
    
    Kaintuck won fair and square.  Pitino saw and exploited what Billy
    Packer pointed out were IU's two "obvious weakenesses."  These weaknesses
    in talent turned out to be exactly the same as those pointed out by me.
    IU is on track with my preseason prediction, having dropped in the rankings.
    
    So it's not apologetics but instead objective analysis of acknowledged
    facts.  Starting a 6-2 forward is not something Bob would do if he could
    avoid it, but he and everybody else in the Western Hemisphere realizes
    how severely limited Matt Nover is.
    
    IU will rack up a few cupcake victories with their annual munch-o'-thon
    Indiana Classic.  This tuning time will improve the team.  Then, they'll
    go into the Big10 and continue sustaining losses to the widebody teams
    like OSU, Iowa, State, Michigan, and Minnesota and sink into the low
    teens in the rankings, or maybe even into the 20s.
    
    But they'll improve.  Especially if they cain get PGraham back and/or 
    roll out Todd Lindemann as a serviceable center. 
    
    If they get on a roll they have a decent shot at making the Sweet Sixteen
    before sustaining a most Excellent Loss - and MrT looks forward to that
    and the pride it will bring me.
    
    MrT
    

    
    Attention all you IU Hooser fan(s):
    
    Right now, take out your pencils and mark down "another excellent
    loss" nexted to Bobby's name.  Date it 12/21.  Know why?????
    
    
    
    
    
    		still curious?
    
    
    
    
    'cause LOUIEEEEE!!!!! and the SJU Redmen are gonna make sure ta exploit
    ALL the deficiencies IU has!!!!!!!
    
    
    so there!
    Kev
    

    
    Hey...Those Wolverines are now 3-0 on the year
    after last nights  112-62 win over Chicago St
    
    chris UCLA '82

	The IU-Kentucky game looked a lot like last year's.  No outside 
	shooting, no ability to post up, and no chance at playing interior 
	defense without massive help from the guards.  Kentucky finally
	hit their 3s (some of them amazing), which you knew they'd do
	sooner or later, and Indiana didn't counter with much of anything.

	They looked much better against Vandy tonight, of course; harder
	play on both ends of the floor, and they kept it up for most of
	the game.  But Vandy's no Kentucky ---  no one like Mashburn on the 
	inside to dominate, and a much less effective outside game.  This 
	gave the Indiana guards time to recover without getting burned after 
	going inside to help out.  At some point they need to go out and
	beat a top quality team.  It's been a long time since we've seen
	them do that.

	I was surprised Cheaney and Anderson didn't play more the second
	half, although that may have had something to do with the score.
	Wasn't too surprised that they (along with Bailey) were out the
	entire first half, though.  When Knight makes this big a change
	it normally lasts more than a few minutes.

	Holiday tournament this weekend for the Hoosiers.  Should be two
	easy W's, and maybe the start of the kind of improvement they'll
	need if they want to be competitive with the really good teams
	in the country (or the conference, for that matter).  

	They've got a long way to go.

tom

    The Vandy team was a good sounding board for a team like IU, a 
    team looking for people to step up and fill holes, a team looking
    to improve enough to ove up to the next level.  This is cuz Vandy,
    under Smif' acolyte Eddy Fogler, has done some recruiting that gained
    national recognition the last year.  LeRoy Woods, Milholland, and 
    Milburn are all big guys (LeRoy wears  1/2 size shoe) with good
    bodies and some talent.  True, they're almost all frosh and like IU
    have no outside shooters to speak of, but they're a decent barometer
    for a team looking for a front-line:
    
    * Alan Henderson is Indiana's most talented player.He blocked shots
      and hit the O-boards and generally outplayed the Vandy's big, highly
      recruited freshmen.
    
    * Todd Lindeman did OK too.  Again, as with Henderson, these weren't
      UCLA's widebodies they were playing, but he shot over some people 
      and grabbed the D-boards he should've, which oftentimes Nover is
      unable to do.
                                                                  
    * They played with the best defensive intensity I've seen in at least
      two years.  True, again, it was against aoung and raw squa but
      that kindplay will make up for their talent gaps in most games 
      during the Big10.
    
    * On the negative side, Indiana attempted 13 treys, most in the first
      quarter of the game... and missed most of them.  
    
    As the announcers repeated said, Bob is obviously looking hard for some
    inside players on D and the bs, and some outside shooting.  He's 
    found half his inside game in Alan, and may be forced to move Anderson
    into the middle (where he played when he was oncourt last night) or
    maybe even Calbert to 
    
    GGraham is their most consistent player.  He started at F last night,
    which at a long-armed 6-4 makes more sense than Damon cuz he's quicker
    and a quicker jumper for boards and on D.
    
    This team will get better.  I'd rank them at about 20th in the nation
    right now.  If Lindeman emerges and Alan continues to develop and
    somebody finds 3-point range, they might even be dangerous.
    
    But at this juncture I'm wondering if I shoulda predicted Indiana
    finsihing behind Michigan for 4th in the conference.  Michigan looks 
    very skeery right now.  Rebounds.  Ooodles a boards.And they're on
    the tube Thursday night.
    
    Big10 Tom

    Anybody notice the sign being held up by a student in a couple of
    the crowd shots last night?
    
    		"Dear Santa, Please Send a Big Man!"
    
    Haa.  Apparently just another sandbagger.  
    
    It'll be interesting to see what this Lindeman kid cain do against
    the big men in the Big10: Webber, Peplowski, Martin, Moses, et al.
    If he cain hold his own on the D, the D-boards, draw a few fouls and
    chuck in a FG or two that would make a world of difference as far as
    the Hoosiers' chances go.
    
    It's tough to sort out where the roles and PT thing is going based on
    last night, what with the big shakeup (Calbert, Eric, and the alleged
    superstar talent Damon didn't start or play in the 1st half last night)
    and the blowout against Vandy and the resultant garbage time.  
    
    But it could be that 6-3 G Todd Leary will get a shot given his outside
    shooting ability.  He's beefed up some, but in order to stay on the
    floor he's gonna have to play some D, something he's been unable to do
    against top drawer competition to date.  The more time Leary gets the
    less likely it is that PGraham is gonna come back this year.  His foot
    is still in a cast.
    
    The Hoosier (Cupcake-Munch-o'-Thon) Classic is this weekend and usually
    gives a good view as to who's gonna be first off the bench during the
    Big10 season.  It sez here that Leary will get PT and a shot.
    
    I noticed in the 2nd half that Eric was playing C with Calbert and Alan
    on the wings.  Probably their best front-line talent.  If Bob stays
    with Nover and then Lindeman in the post something's got to give what
    with Henderson's fine play.  Somebody'll have to play backup F, possibly 
    Anderson.  No way cain either Anderson or Cheaney stay with Henderson
    when it comes to block and/or changed shots and O-rebounds - something
    the undersized Hoosiers sorely need.
    
    Also a potential sub this year is Damon.  Meeks/Reynolds/GGraham are
    much quicker and play better D than the slow-footed Bailey.  Also,
    Meeks and Reynolds seem a little better and dishing.  So, to stay in
    a starter's role Damon's gonna need to light it up from outside,
    something he's only been able to do sporadically to date (like the
    national TV game against Ohio State last year).
    
    MrT

    I am impressed with Henderson.  He is one of those Freshmen that you
    have to let play though.  He has the killer instinct on both ends.  I
    wouldn't say he is the most talented IU player but He's got the best
    instincts for what Bob likes, hard play, in your jock D, and boards,
    boards, boards.  Lindeman looks a little like a guy by the name of Ted
    Kitchel who used to play at IU 8-10 years ago.  He looked about the
    same as a freshman(early).  He had a decent future until a knee injury
    I believe.
    
    I bowl on thursday night but I have the vcr camped out for the UM game.
    
    Roy L.

    The Wolverines' game against E. Michigan will be sorta like the
    IU game against Vandy: A test against representative but inferior
    talent.  Dunno much about EMU except that they usually have about
    3 hot players and a bunch of stiffs.  With Vandy we saw a team that
    was extremely young but had some blue chip talent and will threaten
    for the SEC, maybe, in 2-3 years.
    
    Lindeman's unlike Kitchel in that Kitch was your 6-8 banger widebody
    forward type.  Kitch got very ugly about giving up boards.  I see
    Lindeman as more the gangly slowcenter type, but one with
    hope if he cain get his feet to talk to his haid on a fast enough
    response frequency.  tually, I believe it was a debilitating lower
    back injury that kiboshed Kitch's NBA career prcts, n his knee.
    
    The announcers were pretty smart durinthe Vandy-IU game, pointing 
    out that Eric really needs to play facinghe basket, i.e., he needs
    to play fwd and not C.  But if Lindeman's not capable, who is?  Looks
    like Eric oNover to me, and if it's Nover IU's going nowhere in the
    Big10 or the tourney.
    
    Cain't wait to see Webber.  He's quite the quipmeister in the press.
    Wanna see Jalen too.  These guys could be a frosh wrecking crew.  But
    they haven't played anybody yet.  EMU will be a tougher challenge.  
    Will find out just how far offhey are on Saturday against Duke.
    
    But, as Chris said, "Duke is the so-called #1 team in the country so
    we'll have to improve.  But sometimes teams play down to the level of
    their competition, so we'll see."
    
    Haa.  Gottaove it!
    
    Big10 Tom

    re: .-1
    
    Somebody get the MrT decoder ring out - he's usin' his Hayes
    DumbModem again  ...
    
    E Michigan made the Sweet 16 last year before getting beaten soundly by
    North Carolina.  That's the good news.  The bad news is my S&S sez they
    lost their top 7 players!  In other words, look for Michigan to win
    *big*.
    
    Michigan - Duke could be close, but I doubt it.  Make no mistake,
    The Devils are no UNLV.  They can be beaten without a minor miracle
    taking place.  But with so many youngsters playing against such a
    seasoned team such as Duke, wail, I can't see this one being a game.
    Should be interesting to watch though, just to see UM's awesome talent
    arsenal.  
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    RE: -1
    
    DUKE   at   MICHIGAN
    
    This has all the makings to be a really great game
    
    But I think Webber, Howard and Rose will be too much 
    and that the wolverines will win
    
    chris UCLA alumni, who is waiting for the DUKE at UCLA game!!

    Well, it seems my speculation on the Hoosiers starting lineup was
    on the right track: Against Cent. Mich. U. Henderson took Anderson's
    fwd spot, and Reynolds moved out the badly overrated Damon.  This
    left Nover in the middle.
    
    Michigan clearly has a shot at the Big10 Title this year.  I don't
    think they'll win it over OSU, but this is the best group a freshman
    I've seen since Wooden's heyday.  Chris Webber played Laettner to a
    standstill (and he's in his, what, 5th game as a collegian?), but the
    one who impresses me is this Rose.  
    
    You know there's trouble when Billy Packer starts yelling every time 
    a 6-2 junior guard touches the ball about how it must go to Jalen to
    protect it cuz he's so much better the ball handler... and Rose is 6-8.
    
    I don't think the Fab Five have had anybody come close to them on the
    boards yet, with Duke coming the closest thus far having only been out
    boarded by several.  The block shot situation had to be about the same.
    
    Big10 Tom

 Michigan's Fab Five look downright scary.   That's a very tough Duke team
 they took down to the wire.
 
 I'll be very surprised if Chris Webber stays all four years in Ann Arbor.
 
 Bob Hunt

    Which one was Jimmy (ex-Piston, not JJ) Walker's son?
    

    Anybody heard what the story is with Lawrence Funderburke?  The media
    seemed pretty clear that he was fully eligible this year and I ain't
    seed his name in any a the Buckeyes' box scores.
    
    re 1
    
    Here are the Fab Five:                            
    
    Chris Webber C  6-10 (and growing) and I'd say about 240 lbs, quick,
    		    smart, aggresive and highly skeeled
    
    Juwan Howard F  6-10 and about 230, very strong, fairly quick, seems
       		    like he'll be the most mistake prone and might have
     		    a_attitude problem (he's always contorting his face
    		    about some call or other)
    
    Jalen Rose   G  Just your nice basic run a the mill 6-8 ballhandling
     		    PG who penetrates and bounds and plays D with verve,
    		    seems very polished
    
    Jimmy King   G  I'd guess about 6-4, an amazing jumping jack very quick
    		    off his feet and dangerous with the trey
    
        ?	    I thought the fifth Fab Five member - who I ain't seen
    		    play - was a guard whose surname was Jackson.  Dunno.
    
    MrT

    
    re -.1  Last of the Fab 5 is Ray Jackson out of Texas as is King.  He is
    also a leaper with good ball handling skills.  Against Eastern he
    looked to have the best penetration skills of the group but he got very
    few minutes against Duke.  Talking to one of my buddies back home he
    said the UM coach referenced a few questionable calls down the
    stretch.  Of course all of the calls went Dukes way.  He seemed to
    think a little bit of the NBA thing happened where rookies don't get
    any calls.  He then stated overall the refs. did a good job.  After
    looking at the game again this morning I sort of agree.  Billy Packer
    makes several references to phantom fouls or bad calls.  At this point
    in the season I don't think calls are a big issue because UM is really
    still gauging its talent and team play.  I think the team proved it's 
    ready for the big time errors and all.
    
    The "D" was much better than anticipated but Duke doesn't have any
    bangers.  Cherokee Parks withstanding because I haven't seen him play. 
    As for the being the top ranked recruiting class it may or may not be
    true but they have a clear advantage in that the have been getting
    immediate playing time.  Unlike Dean's and Bobby's kids.
    
    Roy L.
    "Goooooooooooo Blue"  

    
    re. -2
    
    Webber is playing forward, Howard and Riley are playing center.