Conference 7.286::sports_91

    Well, this doesn't specifically have to do with the English League, but
    it IS Club level soccer, and one English team is still in the hunt.
    
    The 3 European Cups are down to the final 8 teams. All series are
    home-away total goals series, with away goals the decider if tied. 
    The Champions' Cup is for the regular season league champions of each 
    country, along with the cup holders. The finals will be played in a
    single game in anuetral site. The Cup Winners' Cup is for all the teams
    that won their own domestic cups. Each of these starts with 32 teams.
    The UEFA Cup is a 64 team tournament for clubs not involved in the 
    other cups. It's a complicated fomula, but 33 slots are taken by the
    next-best for each country, and the remaining slots are divided up based
    on prior results. For example, you might notice a lot of Italian teams.
    Last year, all 3 cups were won by Italian clubs, the fisrt time that
    has ever happened.
    
    Here's who is left:
    
    * = Cup holder
    
    Champions' Cup: 
    
    Red Star Belgrade (Yugoslavia) --  Dynamo Dresden (E. Germany)
    Bayern Munich (W. Germany)     --  FC Porto (Portugal)
    Spartak Moscow (USSR)          --  Real Madrid (Spain)
    * AC Milan (Italy)             --  Olympique Marseille (France)  
    
    Cup Winners' Cup:
    
    Dynamo Kiev  (USSR)            --  FC Barcelona  (Spain)
    Manchester United (England)    --  Monpellier (France)
    Legia Warsaw  (Poland)         --  * Sampdoria Genoa (Italy)
    FC Liege (Belgium)             --  Juventus Turin (Italy)
    
    UEFA Cup:
    
    Bologna (Italy)                --  Sporting Lisbon (Portugal)
    Torpedo Moscow (USSR)          --  IF Brondby (Denmark)
    Alalanta Bergama (Italy)       --  * Internazionale Milan (Italy) 
    AS Roma (Italy)                --  RSC Anderlecht (Belgium)
    
    I believe the first leg is in late March, and the second leg 2 weeks
    later. BTW these teams will still have their regular leagues to contend
    with. Often they will have a weekend game, then a Cup game Wednesday
    night, then another league game on the following weekend.
    
    Tom
    
    
    

Tom,

I thought that English clubs were banned from European competition?

Now, Manchester United is in there because they won the FA last year?


'Saw

    Right, English clubs WERE banned until this year. Aston Villa was in
    the UEFA Cup, but they were knocked out by Inter Milan in the last
    round. Manchester United won the FA Cup, so they are in the European Cup
    Winners' Cup. Liverpool, last year's champion, was NOT involved in the
    Champions' Cup, but word is they will next year if they win the league
    again. They only have one UEFA team because by being banned, none of
    their teams have won any games in Cup competition. Look for a 2nd
    English club in next year's UEFA Cup, as well as Liverpool (or Arsenal)
    in the Champions' Cup.  
    
    I for one, am glad to see the end of the ban. As horrible as past
    events were, I don't think it does any service to fans to keep English
    teams out of Europe any longer. What they really ought to do is
    confiscate the passports of those useless thugs who cause all the
    trouble. BTW, this does not only apply to English fans, as other
    countries have the same problems.
    
    
    Tom

Great!

And I agree with you, Tom, about banning the clubs not being the answer.

Hooliganism could probably occupy it's own topic in here.  It's an
unfortunate state of affairs, but the only one's it punishes are
the players themselves....

'Saw

    Saw,
    
    I guess the one element over there that aids to hooliganism is that
    there are always a lot more away fans at games. Most clubs reserve
    entire secions for away supportrs (segregated) and smaller clubs depend 
    on gate receipts from away supporters more so than they do in the US.
    Also, the close proximity of teams makes travel easier. I guess Whaler
    fans *could* follow the team to games in Boston, New York/New Jersey, 
    etc., but that's about the closest you might get to travelling fans 
    in the US.
    
    The sad thing about recent tragedies is that they were preventable. The
    Hysel disaster is a classic example of boneheaded ineptitude of the
    Belgian police. They allocated tickets for English (Liverpool), Italian 
    (Juventus Turin) and neutral Belgian supporters. Now Brussels is a
    large city with many ethnic groups and foreign nationals. There are a
    large number of Italians, and many of these people snapped up "neutral"
    tickets sold in Belgium. these seats just happened to be next to the
    Liverpool section. It is inconceivable that the police/organizers didn't 
    anticipate this and change the seating arraingements.
    
    Hillsborough was a similar situation, where ticketless people crashed
    the gates, Police feared a riot, so they let them into a closed area
    where fans already were. They didn't even communicate on their
    walkie-talikes with other police to let them know, so they could open
    other exits to accommodate the crowds.
    
    A sad, but very prevetable situation.
    
    Tom

    'saw,
    
    I saw your goalkeeping hero, Neville Southall, in action last saturday. 
    Fortunately he let in a goal that allowed the Gunners to win 1-0.
    
    With Wimbledon earning a tie at Anfield against you Reds, this means
    that the top of the First Division looks like this:
    
    
    			P	W	D	L	Pts
    
    	Arsenal		23	15	8	0	51
    	Liverpool	22	15	5	2	50
    
    
    Read it and weep!!!  Also remember that we had 2 points deducted by the
    FA!!!
    
    
    PJ
    
    
    P.S.  The game programme is in the mail to you.

�    I saw your goalkeeping hero, Neville Southall, in action last saturday. 
�    Fortunately he let in a goal that allowed the Gunners to win 1-0.

Stil like his style, but I'll be sending him a nasty letter about that
goal.
    
    
    
 >   			P	W	D	L	Pts
 >   
 >   	Arsenal		23	15	8	0	51
 >   	Liverpool	22	15	5	2	50
 >   
 >   
 >   Read it and weep!!!  Also remember that we had 2 points deducted by the
 >   FA!!!
 

Well, let's look at some IMPORTANT information...  First, there are about
15 or 16 games to go.  Second, Arsenal will not go undefeated.  Third
Pool has a game in hand....

I feel pretty confident 8^)

later
'Saw

PS  Thanks for the programme, but will there be any more Page 7s coming????

    They are actually known as Page Threes regardless of what page they are
    actually found on.
    
    Hope this helps you drool,
    
    PJ

Slurp, drip, drool.....8^)

    PJ and 'Saw,
     Can any of you guys tell me how Everton is doing?
    And can you guys enlighten me on their rivalry with Liverpool?
    
    I only remember watching the highlights of the English league with
    Mario Machado on Sunday mornings. 'Saw, would you know where I can
    catch league highlights or games?  This note has renewed my interest
    in English league football. Thanks in advance.
    
    MikeL
     

Mike --

SportsChannel carries English League Soccer, which is an hour show.
It covers highlights of all games, with a longish highlight of their
premier game, and a shorter highlight of a secondary game.
Check for it in your area.  They run about two weeks old...


Everton was wallowing around in the middle of the table last I knew.


Now, as to the Everton/Liverpool rivalry, I only have sketchy details.
It seems that this one guy owned Everton, and he moved them out of
where they were (which was somewhere in Liverpool).  Every one got
mad and they made a new club, which was Liverpool.  There was some
conflict about the name Everton also.  (PJ, help me out, because I
know I've butchered this horribly!)

Finally, we all know that there's only one Pride of Merseyside...
and that's the Liverpool Reds!!!!


Oh yeah, find yourself a friend on that side of the pond who will
barter with your for essential books like "Rothmans Football Directory"
and "Barcleys Directory".....

hth,
'Saw

    'Saw
    	Thanks for the info. I get Sportschannel and will look for it!
    An interesting note,after I entered the last note,I ventured to the
    local coffee shop where two of the waitresses are from England.
    Come to find out,they are from Manchester,are big Manchester United
    fans,and say that the Liverpool-United rivlary is pretty bitter
    also. They asked me to give you Reds' fans this message "Liverpool
    rots, up United!"
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
    

    Mike,
    
    The best place to get your English Football info is from the football
    conference.....
    
    			BALZAC::FOOTBALL
    
    You'll find some fellow Everton supporters I'm sure...
    Before Arsenal's 1-0 victory on Saturday, Everton had won 5 in a row
    and were begining to show some form.  They currently lie 12th in the
    League.  There problem this season is an inability to win away from
    home.  They have played 11 away from Goodison Park and only won 1 of
    them.
    
    'saw,
    	As I'm not much of a Merseyside fan, I not up on my ancient history
    of the clubs themselves.  As far as rivalries are concerned, Gary
    Lineker, Captain of England and Tottenham Hotspur, (and ex-Everton
    player) recently said that Merseyside derbies don't have the same
    intensity as the North London derbies between Arsenal and Spurs, and
    none of these can compare to some of the European rivalries...like Real
    Madrid vs Barcelona or Inter Milan vs Juventus.
    
    
    Hope this drools,
    PJ

    Here are the latest standings of the qualifying rounds for the 1992
    European Nations' Cup. The 7 group winners qualify, and with Sweden as
    the host make up the 8-team tournament.  
    
    * = Qualified for World Cup '90
    + = Qualified for Euro Cup '88
    
    GROUP  1        Pl  W  T  L  Pt  GF  GA
    France          3   3  0  0   6   5   2
    *+Spain         3   2  0  1   4  13   4
    *Czechoslovakia 3   2  0  1   4   5   4
    Iceland         4   1  0  3   2   4   5
    Albania         3   0  0  3   0   0  16
    ----------------------------------------------
    GROUP  2
    *Scotland       3   2  1  0   5   5   3
    Switzerland     3   2  0  1   4   7   2
    *Romania        4   2  0  2   4   7   5
    Bulgaria        3   1  1  1   3   4   3
    San Marino      3   0  0  3   0   0  10
    ----------------------------------------------
    GROUP  3
    *+Italy         3   1  2  0   4   5   1
    Hungary         3   1  2  0   4   5   3
    Norway          1   0  1  0   1   0   0
    *+USSR          1   0  1  0   1   0   0
    Cyprus          2   0  0  2   0   2   8
    -----------------------------------------------
    GROUP  4
    *Yugoslavia     3   3  0  0   6   8   1
    +Denmark        3   1  1  1   3   5   4
    Faroe Islands   2   1  0  1   2   2   4
    N. Ireland      3   0  2  1   2   1   3
    *Austria        3   0  1  2   1   1   5
    -----------------------------------------------
    GROUP  5
    Wales           2   2  0  0   4   4   1
    *+Germany       1   1  0  0   2   3   2
    *Belgium        1   0  0  1   0   1   3
    Luxumbourg      2   0  0  2   0   2   4
    -----------------------------------------------
    GROUP  6
    *+Holland       3   2  0  1   4  10   1
    Portugal        2   1  1  0   3   1   0
    Greece          2   1  0  1   2   4   2
    Finland         2   0  2  0   2   1   1
    Malta           3   0  1  2   1   1  13
    ------------------------------------------------
    GROUP  7
    *+Ireland       2   1  1  0   3   6   1
    *+England       2   1  1  0   3   2   1
    Poland          1   0  0  1   0   0   1
    Turkey          1   0  0  1   0   0   5
            

    I HAVE A FEELING THAT KENNY DALGLISH THE LIVERPOOL SOCCER Manager will
    possibly quit before the end of feb. I think that Steve Coppell
    will take over.

    Who is this ::KEITHJ, Nostradamus in disguise? King Kenny did indeed
    quit Liverpool, citing pressures of the job. The REAL reason is that he
    knew they'd get stuffed by Everton in the replay of the FA Cup tie! 
    Noters in the football conference are speculating that he'll join
    another team (Glasgow Celtic, Rangers, Internazionale Milan are 
    mentioned). Talk about jumping from the frying pan to the fire.... 
    No pressure in any of those places.
    
    The other interesting Reds rumour is that John Barnes is gone after
    this season, and will play in Italy next year. (What if Daiglish takes
    the Inter job, think Barnes will wind up with the AzurriNero?)    
    
    Tom

    'Saw,
    
    You'll no doubt be pleased to learn that Everton beat your beloved Reds
    1-0 last night in the FA Cup! Neville Southall made some tremendous
    saves for the Blues, and Ian Rush  and Steve Nicol both missed good
    scoring chances. Everton's goal came when Nicol and Molby screwed up
    defensively, leaving Watson open to blast a rebound into the ba' a th'
    net! 
    
    'Pool fans were makingthe usual excuses:-) A) they missed McMahon & Whalen in
    Midfield   B) They were looking ahead to the showdown with Arsenal on
    Sunday C) They ran ito a hot goalkeeper (true)  D) They were still
    stinging from Kenny Daglish's resignation.
    
    ANY Merseyside Derby is sure to be a good game as the 4 games this past
    month have proved. Everton hadn't beaten you lot in a while, so it
    looks like they picked the right time.
    
    Well, at  least Everton can salvage this seson after a horrible start
    and even flirting with the relegation zone. Liverpool? They can still
    win the league, and even if they finish 2nd to Arsenal, they'll still be
    back in Europe next year as England's entry in the UEFA Cup
    

Win a few, lose a few.

It take some small comfort that my favorite goaltender had a shutout....

Is 'Pool still out in front of the league?


'saw

    I think the pool is 1 point behind the Gunners. The showdown is Sunday at
    Anfield, so that could decide it. The following week Everton travel to
    "SarfLundin" for a clash with Arsenal
    
    Tom
               

    Go Everton!
    
    I wish I could have access to a program  that shows English league
    hilites each nite or at least von the days they play. I'll have to
    wait until the hilites of the Everton-Liverpool FA match  comes
    along via Sportschannel. Thanks for the good news.
    
    MikeL
    

    I regularly borrow tapes of the English League highlights from a
    friend. They also include the "goals of the week", so you get to see
    good plays from all the games aroung the league.  I really enjoy this,
    since it's the only chance we get to actually see the game at it's
    best. It's also nice for atmosphere, and just curiosity of the various
    clubs who aren't so well known. I particularly like the commentary, as
    they definitely have a way with words. "The post was the villan on that
    one..." as the ball hits the post after forward cleanly beats goalie.
    After a nice scoring chance, "[xxx] showing great crativity and
    imagination on that run..."
     
    One thing that always puzzled me is why teams wear radically different 
    uniforms home & away. Arsenal wears red shirts with white sleeves,
    white & red shorts and socks at home.  The away uniform uses the same 
    design, but the coloUrs are balck and yellow. Chelsea "Blues" wear [guess 
    what color] at home, but wear red away. Not that it matters, but in a
    quick highlight film, I'm always fooled at which teams are which.
    
    Tom

    The following results are from last night's European Cup action.
    The home team is listed first. The second round replay is on March
    20th, with the team with the most total goals advancing to the next
    round.
    
    Champions' Cup:
    
    AC Milan (Italy)        1-1  Olympioque Marseille (France)
    Bayern Munich (Germany) 1-1  FC Porto (Portugal)
    Red Star Beograd (Yugo) 3-0  Dynamo Dresden (E. Germany)
    Spartak Moscow (USSR)   0-0  Real Madrid (Spain)
    
    Cup Winners' Cup
    
    Dynamo Kiev (USSR)      2-3  FC Barcelona (Spain)
    FC Liege (Belgium)      1-3  Juventus Torino (Italy)
    Legia Warsaw (Poland)   1-0  Sampdoria Genova (Italy)
    Manchester United (Eng) 1-1  Montpellier (France)
    
    UEFA Cup
    
    AS Roma (Italy)         3-0  RSC Anderlecht (Belgium)  :-(
    Atalanta (Italy)        0-0  Inter Milan (Italy)
    Bologna (Italy)         1-1  Sporting Lisbon (Portugal)
    Brondby VK (Denmark)    1-0  Torpedo Moscow (USSR)
    
    
    Noters in ::FOOTBALL say the best game of the lot was Milan-Marseille, 
    and the worst game was a tossup between Bayern Porto and ManU-Montpellier.
    
    Tom           

    
>>    Noters in ::FOOTBALL say the best game of the lot was Milan-Marseille, 
>>    and the worst game was a tossup between Bayern Porto and ManU-Montpellier.
  
Ya Tom,

It was a good match.  Olympic took it to Milano right from the outset but made
a really dumb defensive error to allow the first goal.  They tied it up when
Waddle, who was super btw, made a pass to Papin through *4* defenders.
Pel� was also very dangerous for Marseille, hitting the post once on a nifty
play.  One high floater for Milano came down just inside the Olympic crossbar 
and it appeared as though the goalkeeper jumped and caught it just behind the 
line, but it was difficult to really judge from the angle we saw.
Near the end Milano pressed but could not score.

I would look for Marseille to take the next leg if they come out as hungry as
they did Wednesday.

rick

    Sheffield Wednesday won the Rubelows (league) Cup last week, beating
    Manchester United, 1-0. The Owls have an American, John Harkes on the
    team, who played for the US in Italia 90.  Harkes scored a brilliant
    goal earlier this season, and it's being considered for the BBC's "goal 
    of the season" award. The goalie was Peter Shilton, the England WC
    keeper. Harkes was the first American to play at Wembeley, and the first 
    American ever to be on any kind of Cup or championship team in Britain 
    or Europe. Sheffield Wednesday are currently at (or near) the top of the 
    second division, and a good bet to play in Division 1 next year.
    
    SI did a nice story on Harkes last week, and it seems that he is
    definitely one of the players to watch for the USA '94 team and beyond.
    
    Tom

Yes, from what I've heard "Harkesy" is all the rage over there now.

His playing at that level should ultimately enhance our national team's
play....

The SI article was GREAT....

'Saw

    MANCHESTER UNITED win ECWC!
    
    The Red Devils beat Barcelona, 2-1, to win the European Cup Winners'
    Cup. This means there will be 4 English teams in next year's European
    competitions: Arsenal (Champions) Spurs/Nottingham Forest (FA Cup
    winner) and ManU (ECWC) and Mr Chainsaw's beloved Liverpool Reds in the
    UEFA Cup. Not bad for a country who was banned from all competitions
    until this year. 
    
    Haven't heard any results for Red Star Belgrade/Olympique Marseille
    yet..
    
    Tom

Tom,

Help a dumb Canuck, willya?

Why wasn't the second United goal offside?

I thought the Koeman goal was an absolute wowser!

One of the better matches I've seen - the pace was incredible!

rick

Koeman is unreal.

I used to catch him when he was with Eindhoven back when I was in France.
Unbelievable player.

Still, I'm glad Manchester won!

'Saw

    The FA Cup Final, played Saturday, saw Tottenham Hotspur beat
    Nottingham Forest, 2-1 after extra time. 
    
    One of the lowlights of the game was Paul Gascoigne making a vicious 
    tackle, his 2nd of the game, and injuring himself in the process. (not
    so) Affectionately known as "Fat Boy" and "Cry Baby," he didn't get the 
    red card for either foul, but it served him right to injure himself like 
    this. He'll be out 6 months. In doing this he managed to cost himself 
    about 800,000 quid in salary next year, when his sale to the Lazio club 
    in Italy fell through. (players usually reap 10% of the transfer fee when 
    they are sold) It's such a shame to see a player as talented as Gazza 
    resort to this sheer stupidity. Let's just hope he's a little more mature 
    when he comes back.  
    Gazza is controversial because the media make a huge fuss over him. In
    WC90, he got sent off for a legitimate foul, and burst into tears,
    hence the nickname. He also endorses Mars candy bars for a hefty fee,
    and playing for one of the London teams, he gets more than his share of
    publicity. Many people are tired of his antics.
    
    Tom

    Tom,
    
      Much as I agree with most of your comments here, I feel that I
    must put in a word for the poor lads defence.
    
      In the WC, he didn't cry so much for the fact that he was booked (not
    sent off), but for the fact that that was his second yellow card and
    meant that he would be suspended for the next game. In this case it was
    the 3rd-4th place play-offs, but could have been for the final itself
    (but for some missed penalties)
    
    Regards,
    Wayne

    Yup, you're right about it being his second yellow. Geez, the WC seems
    like so long ago, it's hard to remember these things. I mean this was
    when Maradonna was still considered a great player, and no one had even 
    HEARD  of Toto Schilacci before the WC, as he was languishng for some
    2nd division team in Sicily or Sardinia.
    
    What a difference a year makes. Do yousuppose Graham Taylor will ever 
    pick Chris Waddle for England? He's only one of the main reasons Olympique
    Marseille is one game away from being the Club Champions of Europe.
    You'd think he'd be good enough to play fro his country....
    
    Tom 

And you can't forget the year John Harkes has had for Sheffield Wednesday!

When the WC was on, all I'd heard was that he'd had a tryout lined up.
Now he's playing for them, had a couple of great goals, and is the darling
of Sheffield.....

'Saw

    
    Graham Taylor picked Waddle for the second game agianst the Republic
    of Ireland, but he then picked up that injury (concussion), and was
    forced to pull out. He was also picked for the squad against Russia
    and Argentina, but again, was forced to pull out due to commitments
    with Marseille.
    
    England beat Russia 3-1 last night at Wembly Stadium. Apparently, they
    didn't play that badly, considering that many players were unavailable
    due to club commitments. They play Argentina on Saturday (I think).
    
    After that, England are going on a tour of Australia and Malasia, so
    that should give Taylor the chance to try out some new players,
    especially as the players from Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United
    have not been released for the tour. (All these clubs have Scottish
    managers, BTW)
    
    Regards,
    Wayne
    
    

    Re Waddle
    
    Didn't he score an amazing goal just after his concussion? I think it
    was the AC Milan game where the lights went out. Wot's this about the
    Marseille-Red Star game not being on TV in Britain? That's amazing, if
    you think about it. That would be like the world series not being on TV 
    in Canada, because there are no Canadian teams playing in it. It seems
    like an excellent matchup between 2 exciting, offensive minded teams.
    Could be one of the best finals in years. Hey, it IS even on TV in the
    states, although I'll have to skip out of work and see it at a
    Portugese club in Lowell, but what the hey....
    
    One thing that always surprised me about friendlies is that they don't
    use a lot of the lesser known players, just to give them a game with
    the national side to test them out. I dunno if the Soviet team is
    really that good. in '88 they were the 2nd best team in Europe, and going 
    into the WC, I predicted that they would win their group. Naturally, the 
    group finished in the exact opposite order that I thought, but... It 
    seems to me that the Soviets are rebuilding with younger players, and not 
    quite at the level they were. How are they doing in their Euro92 group?
    I think everyone there is tied for first, each team with about 6 draws
    :-) BTW, I wouldn't refer to them as "Russia" since most of the players 
    are (or at least were) Ukranian. The Soviet team used to be the same as
    the Dynamo Kiev club, keeping the players together, unlike most
    national/club sides.
    
    Too bad England are touring the far east instaed of the USA. This would
    be a natural for them to come here. Hopefully they'll do a tour before
    the 1994 Cup. I got my tix for the Ireland game in the mail yesterday!
    Can't wait
    
    
    Tom  
                        

    
    I sometimes refer to the Soviets as Russia, old habits and all that. I
    shall try not to do it again.
    
    At the moment, I believe that the Soviets are doing very well in their
    group, and there is every chance that they may edge out Italy (only 1
    team from each group qualifies). I didn't see the game myself, but I
    would imagine that the Soviet coach would have used a few new players,
    especially knowing that England were doing the same thing.
    
    Apparently, the EC will be shown here after all (BBC1?), so I would
    imagine that there were plans to screen it all along, and someone has
    been passing duff information.
    
    If England had have toured the US, then the noise generated by the fans
    of other countries (in BALZAC::FOOTBALL) would have been very loud.
    Calls of "So you think you will qualify" and "Over confident England"
    etc etc. ;) If they do well in the Euro Championships, and they make a
    positive start in the WC qualifying rounds, then I would not be
    surprised to see a tour of the US in 93 (maybe taking in Canada and
    Mexico).
    
    BTW, you comment about the World Series in Canada, even without a
    Canadian Team......  My dream (and USA's nightmare I guess) is to see
    a Jays-Expos world series.  ;)     I know, Iknow,  Dream on......
    
    Regards,
    Wayne.
    
    P.S. Can anyone provide me with info as to how Canada are shaping up in
    the soccer world ?

Wayne,

Strangely enough, I don't think anyone would object to a Jays-Expos
World Series.  Except for the Red Sox fans, because the Jays would have
had to win the AL EAST 8^)

From my point of view, we don't think of the Jays and Expos as Canadian
teams, per se.  It seems to me to be just another team on the schedule...

Being a Red Sox fan, I'm pissed any time they aren't in there 8^)


Can't help you on the Canadian soccer question....sorry

'Saw

    Re Canadian Soccer
    
    We get precious little info on the US team in this country, so you
    can't be serious about Canada's. It's too bad, since it could be a
    really good rivalry, and as you mentioned, touring S. American &
    European teams could easily play both. Canada qualified for the '86 Cup
    in Mexico, so there is certainly potential to be a regional power. 
    Ideally what they should do is promote regular tournaments involving 
    Mexico, US, Canada and other Caribbean/Central American countries, 
    patterned after the European Nations' Cups, but I don't know how easy 
    this would be.
    
    I agree that a Jays-Expos WS would still be interesting to a lot of
    fans. The Expos have been one of my "Jo* Vane-jumping" favorites ever
    since the days of Rusty Staub and Mudcat Grant at Jarry Park.
    
    Tom

Well, I don't know about soccer, but Canada-USA is already a big
rivalry in rugby.

You hear so little about some of these sports here.  I mean, I was
SHOCKED when I saw the SI article about Harkes.  That's a real rarity....


'Saw

    My issue of "World Soccer" just arrived yeaterday, andhere are a couple
    of items related to Canadian soccer. Apparently there IS a North
    American Nations Cup, this year being played in Los Angeles. The
    tournament involved the US, Canada and Mexico. The results were US 2,
    Mexicio 2, Mexico 3, Canada 0 & US 2, Canada 0. Mexico pissed everyone 
    off by sending their "B" team, and both Canada and the US had several
    key players overseas. Attendance was terrible, as the 3 games drew a
    total of 13,000 fans to the huge LA Coleseum.
    
    The Canadian Soccer League is down to 8 teams, from 11 last year. One
    example of some of the problems faced is that the Vancouver team's
    closest rival is Winnipeg, 1500 miles away.
    
    The Canadian Olympic team just finished a tour of Japan, Korea and
    China, winning 2 games and losing 3.
    
    Tom

>>    The Canadian Olympic team just finished a tour of Japan, Korea and
>>    China, winning 2 games and losing 3.
  
Tom,

I hope that one of our wins was against (South) Korea - they were really neat
in the World Cup last year!!  

Their tactics include 4-6 men running after the opposition player with the
ball.  Killed me, man, just killed me...

rick

    It didn't give the breakdown on which games were won/lost. South Korea
    is definitely a regional power, qualifying for 2 WCs in a row and
    winning the Asian Championship in '88. Although they didn't win a game
    in the last WC, they were in a very tough group with Belgium, Spain
    and Uraguay. A Korean guy (forget his name) scored one of the nicest
    goals of the whole tournament.
    
    Tom

    Anyone with info on the England-Germany game in Wembley last week?

    I think Germany won 1-0. Ranier, if you're looking for up-to-the minute
    "fitba" information, check out RTOWT::FOOTBALL
    
    Tom

    OOOOPS!
    
    That should be RTODWT::FOOTBALL

    A little updat on the English League:
    
    After 8 weeks of play, Manchester United is 1st, followed by Leeds
    United, then Liverpool. Sheffield Wednesday is tied for 4th with
    Coventry City (who have NEVER won the FA Cup*). 6th is Spurs, then
    Machester City, Nottingham Forest, Chelsea and Arsenal, last year's
    champion is struggling at 10th place, with 3 wins, 2 draws and 3 losses
    
    John Harkes of the USA plays for League Cup holders Sheffield Wednesday, 
    who have 4 wins a draw and 2 losses. They won 1-0 at Man City on Saturday.
    This is Wednesday's first season in the 1st division.
    
    Tom  
    

    The first leg of the European club Cups was played last night. These
    are home-and-home total goals series.
    
    'Saw, you'll be pleased to know that your mighty Liverpool Reds spent
    the night beating up on a semi-pro team of Finnish shopkeepers in the
    UEFA Cup, 6-1. Buncha Bullies! :-) This was the first European game for
    Liverpool since the tradgedy at Brussels' Heysel Stadium in 1985, where 
    45 people were killed.
    Also, Arsenal looked impressive in beating a decent Austria Wien side
    in the Champions' Cup, 6-1. 
    In the Cup Winners' Cup Spurs lost 1-0 to the Croatian team, Hadjuk 
    Split. Due to the civil unrest, the game had to be played in Austria.
    Manchester United tied a Greek team whose name I can't spell or
    pronounce, 0-0 on a hot, humid afternoon in Greece.
    
    The second leg is October 2nd.
    
    Tom

    John Harkes of the USA scored what was described as "a cracker of a
    goal" to give Sheffield Wednesday a 1-1 draw at Liverpool. The goal
    came in the 68th minute on a header from about 15 yards out. Liverpool
    had scored at the 17th minute.
    
    The Owls are tied for 3rd place with Arsenal in the English League,
    behind Manchester United and Leeds.
    
    Tom

>    John Harkes of the USA scored what was described as "a cracker of a
>    goal" to give Sheffield Wednesday a 1-1 draw at Liverpool. The goal
>    came in the 68th minute on a header from about 15 yards out. Liverpool
>    had scored at the 17th minute.
    
Oh, to be happy and sad at the same time.

Certainly some rebuilding years for 'pool, but to hear Harksey is doing
so well really makes me smile.  

They love him in Sheffield, that's for sure!


'Saw

    Don't worry too much about the 'pool, Saw. If their new manager Graeme
    Souness does for them what he did for his old team, Glasgow Rangers,
    he'll buy up every mediocre English player "with lots of bottle" from 
    Wankingham to Dorking, spending millions of pounds in the process.:-) 
    With Rangers, "Big Sue" had lots of domestic success, but they usually 
    got stuffed in the first round by whoever they played in Euro cups. 
    
    Cheer up, 'Saw. At least it looks like the Reds will make it to the
    second round, "The Final 32" of the UEFA Cup. They hold a 6-1 lead over
    a bunch of Finnish guys who work at regular 9-5 jobs and play "fitba"
    on the weekends, sorta like your rugby club.
    
    The Mancs are gloating over in ::FOOTBALL, but I wouldn't write off the 
    Scousers yet...It's a long season, and it wouldn't surprise me in the
    least to see the 'pool near the top in May.
    
    Tom
       

    Eveton are also starting rather slowly. They tied Chelsea at the Bridge
    yesterday, 2-2 with Beardsley scoring one (dunno who got the other) The
    Blues now have 2 wins, 4 ties, 4 losses, and were in 17th place before
    the match. They are keeping dodgy company with titans like QPR, West
    Ham, Sheffield United and everyone's favoUrite snooze partners, Wimbledon 
    and Luton Town.
    
    Tom

    Saw, you're not gonna like this one....
    
    Result from last night in Finalnd: Kuusysi Lahti 1, Liverpool 0.
    
    Not to worry, since the Reds won the first leg 5-0, so the Scousers go
    to the next round.
    
    Still, not a good way to prepare for Sunday's showdown with the Mancs

    In case anyone wonders, England have qualified for the 1992 European
    Championships in Sweden. They tied Poland 1-1 in the last minute on a 
    goal by Gary Lineaker. Ireland beat Turkey 3-1 in the other match and 
    it looked like they were going to qualify, until Lineaker scored.
    Ireland needed to win and England to lose in order to qualify.
    
    In addition to the host Sweden, France and the USSR have also
    qualified for th 8 nation tournament.
    
    Tom   

I noticed the other day that Liverpool has climbed WAY up in the
standings.  

Last I knew they were 3rd, and still had enough games left to at least
make a run at it....


Wonder whatever happened to David Strage...  remember PJ?


'Saw

    Go Luton Town FC!  What a team!
    
    ...oh well, somebody has to.   :-)

    Were any first division matches played this past Saturday?  The Sunday
    Boston Globe usually reports the previous day's scores, but there
    weren't any listed yesterday.
    
    
    py

Paul...

Some scores were listed in this morning's edition of the Vogon News.

If I haven't deleted mine, I'll forward it to you....


Liverpool tied Coventry City   nil-nil is all I can remember right now...


'Saw

    re .57, thanks 'Saw (and like the new node name!)
    
    
    py

       Anybody notice, Saw's new node is a lot like Rugby!
                                     Denny

Sure is....


In fact, it's a lot like a loosehead prop.   (On a rugby side, the loosehaid
prop is #1, and the tighthead prop is #3.  The hooker, who is in the middle
of the front row, is #2).

So, when there was no rugby1 or rugby3, I chose rugby1....

A nice leetle DECstation 5000/200....


'Saw

Well, these are the results I remember off the top o mah haid...

Sheffield Wednesday and Man U tied 1-1 at Old Trafford. The big upset was Leeds 
United losing at home to Oldham, 2-0. Liverpool and Coventry City (who have NEVER
won the FA Cup) tied 0-0, Everton and QPR did the same.

The standings are Manchester United still in 1st, 1 point ahead of Leeds, 
Liverpool and Sheffield Wed. are tied for 3rd, 9 points back, but the Owls have 
played one fewer game than the 'pool. Manchester City is a couple of points 
back, and after that, Arsenal, Coventry City, Everton, Notts Forest, Spurs, and
a bunch more are at least 10 points behind City.

HTH

Tom

    And the Whitefish beat the Bollocks, 6-2... oops, wrong soccer
    league...

WHITEFISH ROOOOOOLLL!!! 4 wins in a row and 5 of the last 6!

To add to .61, the FA Cup is down to the final 16. These are the matchups to be
played in the next couple of weeks:

Chelsea 	Sheffield United
Portsmouth	Middlesboro
Swindon		Aston Villa
Norwich		Notts County
Bolton		Southampton
Sunderland	West Ham United
Nottingham Forest   Bristol City
Ipswich		Liverpool

A lot of 2nd Division clubs still in it. Most of the "Big" 1st division teams
have been knocked out.  Hard to predict what will happen, but you'd have to
favor Liverpool and Forest.

The FA Cup is an interestig kind of competition. ANY organized team in England
can enter. Regonal amateur leagues play the early rounds, then are joined by the
3rd & 4th Divisions of the Vauxhall (National amateur) league. Div 1 & 2 join 
later, then 3 & 4th divisions of the (professional) Football League. Finally
the Division 1 & 2 clubs join, and the field is gradually narrowed down. 

Last year there was a guy who worked for DEC in the UK who was playing for a 
local amateur town team, who managed to win a couple of rounds. Later, they were
beaten by a stronger-level amateur side, who in turn won a couple more before 
losing to a 3rd division team. The 3rd division team lost to Nottingham Forest, 
who made it all the way to the finals. It must be a nice feeling to be able to 
draw these kind of links from your own just-for-fun team to the top-rated 
professional sides. 


BTW, I'm disappointed that no Monty Python fan caught the reference to Coventry
City in the previous note. There was a skit on a TV game show with Karl Marx, 
Josef Stalin, Fidel Castro, Freidrich Engels, Che Guevara, Mao Tse-Tung and 
others. The questions were all on English soccer trivia. Q: :"When was the last 
time Coventry City won the FA Cup?"  A: (Marx) "...The workers of the world 
control the means of productivity, theereby..."  Host: "Well, I'm not surprised 
no one got it - It was in fact a trick question, Coventry City have NEVER won 
the FA Cup."

I went to England in the Spring of '87 and almost p*ssed my pants when I found 
out that Coventry City DID win the FA Cup that year...

Tom

Way-ill Saw,

You is gona be heartbroken that Liverpool look like they are on the way out of
the UEFA Cup. They got beat by an Italian team, Genoa, 2-0 lasted night. Your
main main, Bruce Grovel-air didn't play because of the "too many foreigners" 
rule. Liverpool are loaded with non-English players, and could only have 4 on 
the field at once. It doesn't matter too much, since Graeme Souness is the 
soccer equivalent of Snuffy Smif, and couldn't figger his way out of a paper bag.
He never did well in Europe with the more talented Glasgow Rangers teams, and 
there is no reason to think he'd be up for a bigger challenge with a patchwork 
Liverpool team. A *REAL* Dread-mon, John Barnes is out with a thigh injury, and 
his replacement, Mark Walters couldn't do too much.

They play again in 2 weeks at Anfield, but the Pool need to win by 3-0. Even if
they win 4-1, Genoa will win on away goals.

Tom Dread

Oh, mon, ye be breakin' ma heart wit dat sad news....


I've been very disappointed in the pool ever since they let Aldridge get 
away.

They've lost Beardsley to Everton, I haven't seen Rush the couple of times
I caught 'pool on the Soccer show, and lately it seems that even when
Grobbelar plays he ain't as good as he used to be (where's he from anyway?
Wales?)

John Barnes though has ALWAYS been a big fav of mine.


Not pleased to hear they have Snuffy Smif' coachin' dem...


Did Nicol play?


'Saw

I don't know what the exact lineup was, but the 2nd string keeper, Hooper was in 
the net so they could use another foreigner on the field. (Gobbelaar is from
Zimbabwe). I know they had Saundeers (Wales) Houghton (Ireland) and Jan Molby 
(Denmark) in there, but I don't know about the rest. 

This "Foreigner" rule is pretty confusing. English clubs have the most to lose
by this, since they are usually packed with Irish and Welsh players. (Clubs in 
those countries are generally semi-pro, and all the national sides usually play
for clubs in England or Scotland) Some countries have restrictions (Italy - 3 
per club) anyway, but England's domestic league has no rules lie this. It's only 
for European competitions tht this rule applies. There are also non-EC 
distinctions,but that's even more confusing.

About the game, the first Genoa goal came from a free kick in the Center circle 
that went into the box, Thomas Suhkravy (from the Czech. national team - hat 
trick vs US in the World Cup) headed it down for a guy named Fiorana, who 
one-timed a volley into the back of the net. Hooper had no chance. The second 
goal came on a 35-yard bananna kick from Branco. Even the Scousers said it 
ranks up there in the goal of the season debate. Hopefully it will be on the 
English highlights this weekend. 

One thing that I'd like to see more of is that the ref gave a yellow card to a 
Genoa player who took a dive in the box, hoping to get a penalty. If therefs 
did this more often, maybe this ridiculous acting stuff would stop. 

BTW, this is Genoa's first year ever in a European cup. They finished in the 
final EUEFA Cup slot in the Italian league (6th I think) last year. This is 
only their 3rd season in "Serie A" and had always been in the lower divisions,
overshadowed by the much larger team in town Sampdoria.

Tom/Dread

Dread,

Thanks for the info on the loss 8^( and where Grobbelar is from.


I'm thinking that 'pool needs to beef up its talent a bit more.  Right now
they seem kind of disorganized....


You know what I miss the most?  When I was in France, on Saturday evenings,
on SKY Channel or SUPER Channel from England, Gillette would sponsor this
half hour show of highlights, results and standings from all of the 
European league.  I mean, we're talking Belgian, German, Spanish, Italian,
English, Scottish, Netherlands....


(btw, is Ronald Koemann still in Italy?)



'Saw

Ronald Koeman is playing for Barcelona in the Spanish League, for is old pal,
Johann Cruyff. I like the idea of a highlight show of all the top Euro leagues
too, but I'm just content enough with the English League show. There is also
Italian soccer (live) on Sunday mornings, and SIN/Univision (Spanish) usually 
has some kind of game, often from S. America. 

The Italian League is kind of hit or miss. The "Cattanaccio" style (the Italian
word for chain-link fence) packs 5 defenders at the back, and isn't always that
entertaining, with a lot of 0-0, 1-0 and 1-1 games. The reason is that there is 
SO much pressure to win (or to NOT lose) in Italy. On the other hand, The 
Italian league has the greatest collection of stars on the planet. Of the 18 
teams in the league and 3 foreigners per team, every single one of them is a 
star on their own country's national team. All of the "Azurri" play in the 
domestic league as well. Milan's dutch trio of Gullit, Rijkaard and Van Basten 
have been the Key to the Dutch team's success over the years, and Inter's 
3 Germans + Rudi Voeller of Roma, were all key members of the WC championhip 
team.

The thing I like about this game is that, even though it's a simple idea - 11
players passing th ball around for a shot - every country has it's own distinct
style. The English play a 90 MPH for 90 minutes style that critics say is more
rewardig for grit and determination than pure skill. The Brazilians play a 
beautiul one-touch passing game, Argentina and other S. American teams rely on 
the individual flair of a player like Maradonna or Carlos Valderama (the 
Columbian guy who looks like Ronald McDonald). 

Tom

Oh yeah, I forgot he was in Spain....

I like the English league, because I like that style the best. 


I love watching Gullitt, and Van Baasten...  What I love the most is
when Gullitt scores, and an English commentator will drag his name
out...  Heeeeewwwwwwwww-lit.   Too much.   

Haven't caught Milan in a while though -- does he still have his rasta
hairdo?


Have to get into the soccer notes file again....


'Saw

    Tom Dread -
    
    While driving through a section of Seattle that's a little funkier than
    most, searching for a bar I heard about, I came across a store - that
    unfortunately was closed.   'Mikey Dread's' place it was.  Must
    be yer bro, no?
    
    JD

Dread,

Do you have the league tables for English Division I?

How's Sheffield Wednesday doin', or the boys from Merseyside?


And (showing my stupidity) how long has Mo Johnson been playing for Everton?
And did I see Gordon Strachan playing for Leeds?


'Saw

    Saw main,
    
    Wee Mo was sold to the Blues a couple of months ago, after he wore out
    his welcome mat with Glasgow Rangers. Johnston made big news since he
    played for cross town rivls Celtic first, then went to France (Auxerre,
    I think). He came ba' tae Scoo'lan and was just about to re-sign with
    Celtic, but went to Rangers instead. Being Catholic and playing for the
    traditionally Protestant Rangers caused a bit of a fuss for a while,
    but eventually people judged him by what he did on the pitch.
    
    Gordon Strachan has been with Leeds for a while now. There is an
    article in "World Soccer" on him that I can type in if I get really
    motivated. Leeds recently got stuffed 4-0 by 6th place Manchester City,
    and Manchester United won, so the Red Devils go top of the league.
    Sheffield Wednesday are within striking distance of 2nd, about 6 points
    back. The Lads from Merseyside are 4th. A goal at the 87th minute just 
    barely allowed the Pool to escape from getting booted out of the FA Cup 
    by Portsmouth, a 2nd division club. The replay is nexted week, and if
    they win, they face Norwich in the final. It looks like Spurs may go
    down to the 2nd division, since they are playing like total crap these
    days. They lost to West Ham United, and the Hammers look like they
    could go down too.
    
    I'll see if I can dig up the current standings
    
    DreadMon    

       April 4 results
    
       Chelsea            2  -  1    West Ham Utd.      
       Coventry City      0  -  1    Arsenal            
       Crystal Palace     2  -  0    Everton            
       Luton Town         2  -  1    Wimbledon          
       Man City           4  -  0    Leeds Utd.    	     
       Nottingham For     0  -  2    Sheffield Wed.     
       Sheffield Utd.     2  -  0    Oldham Athletic    
       Southampton        2  -  1    QPR                
       Tottenham Hotspur  2  -  5    Aston Villa ---> Spurs led 2-0 at half!   

       April 7 result
    
       Manchester United  1  -  1    Manchester City
    
    
        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Manchester United        36   19   14    3   57   26   71   31 
   2 Leeds United             37   18   15    4   65   35   69   30 
   3 Sheffield Wednesday      36   18    9    9   56   48   63    8 
   4 Arsenal                  36   15   13    8   63   41   58   22 
   5 Liverpool                35   15   13    7   42   31   58   11 
   6 Manchester City          37   16   10   11   50   43   58    7 
   7 Crystal Palace           37   13   13   11   49   55   52   -6 
   8 Aston Villa              37   14    9   14   42   39   51    3 
   9 Chelsea                  37   12   13   12   45   50   49   -5 
  10 Nottingham Forest        35   13    9   13   52   50   48    2 
  11 Qeens Park Rangers       37   10   17   10   42   41   47    1 
  12 Sheffield United         36   13    8   15   55   55   47    0 
  13 Everton                  37   11   13   13   45   43   46    2 
  14 Wimbledon                37   11   13   13   44   46   46   -2 
  15 Oldham Athletic          37   12    8   17   55   60   44   -5 
  16 Norwich City             36   11   11   14   45   51   44   -6 
  17 Southampton              35   11   10   14   35   47   43  -12 
  18 Tottenham Hotspur        35   12    6   17   47   51   42   -4 
  19 Coventry City            36   10   10   16   34   38   40   -4 
  20 Luton Town               36    8   11   17   30   60   35  -30 
  21 Notts County             36    7   10   19   35   54   31  -19 
  22 West Ham United          35    6   11   18   29   53   29  -24 

	

Wow, 'pool is almost out of it.  They're 13 down with 5 to play (or is it
38 that they play?)

If it's 40 they still have a chance.  38 and they're gone...


'Saw

    Actually, they play 42 games, plus cups (FA Cup, Rumbelows Cup, Europe)
    so that makes a lot of tired players by the end of the season. The idea
    of a smaller "Premiere League" with fewer club games aiming to help the
    national team, has been tossed around, but as usual, there's too much
    money to be made.
    
    Even still, most people think Leeds is really the only other team to
    have a shot. Even Sheffield Wednesday who are 3rd have a tough task
    because of scheduling. It *COULD* happen, but I think Wedesday are
    looking more for a place in the UEFA Cup in Europe next year - more 
    honors for the US national team's John Harkes.
    
    Tom

I saw 'Pool on last week's program.  I forget who they played now, but 
they did win it 2-1 on a late goal I believe.


They're not playing well, or at least like I remember.  Rush seems to be
on the far side of the hill, a little past his prime, and they do miss
Beardsley, fwiw.

Is there an heir-apparent to Grobbelar?  He's getting old I think....


'Saw

Results & Standings as of 11 Apr
      
       Arsenal            4  -  1    Crystal Palace
       Aston Villa        1  -  0    Liverpool          
       Everton            0  -  2    Sheffield Utd.     
       Leeds Utd.         3  -  0    Chelsea            
       Notts County       1  -  0    Coventry City
       Oldham Athletic    5  -  1    Luton Town         
       QPR                1  -  2    Tottenham Hotspur  
       Sheffield Wed.     2  -  0    Man City           
       West Ham Utd.      4  -  0    Norwich City       


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Leeds Utd.               38   19   15    4   68   35   72   33 
   2 Man Utd.                 36   19   14    3   57   26   71   31 
   3 Sheffield Wed.           38   19   10    9   58   48   67   10 
   4 Arsenal                  38   17   13    8   70   43   64   27 
   5 Liverpool                37   15   13    9   44   35   58    9 
   6 Man City                 38   16   10   12   50   45   58    5 
   7 Aston Villa              38   15    9   14   43   39   54    4 
   8 Crystal Palace           38   13   13   12   50   59   52   -9 
   9 Nottingham For           36   14    9   13   53   50   51    3 
  10 Sheffield Utd.           37   14    8   15   57   55   50    2 
  11 Wimbledon                38   12   13   13   47   48   49   -1 
  12 Chelsea                  38   12   13   13   45   53   49   -8 
  13 Tottenham Hotspur        37   14    6   17   51   52   48   -1 
  14 QPR                      38   10   17   11   43   43   47    0 
  15 Oldham Athletic          38   13    8   17   60   61   47   -1 
  16 Everton                  38   11   13   14   45   45   46    0 
  17 Norwich City             38   11   11   16   46   58   44  -12 
  18 Southampton              36   11   10   15   35   48   43  -13 
  19 Coventry City            38   10   11   17   34   39   41   -5 
  20 Luton Town               37    8   11   18   31   65   35  -34 
  21 Notts County             38    8   10   20   36   56   34  -20 
  22 West Ham Utd.            36    7   11   18   33   53   32  -20 
      

    
    Does anyone know who won the FA Cup Semifinal between Liverpool and
    Portsmouth played Monday at 7pm (UK time)?

    It was 1-1, and a scoreless extra time. Liverpool won the shootout and
    will face 2nd Division Sunderland in the FA Cup Final.
    
    Tom

    Manchester United won the Rumbelows "League" Cup on Saturday. Here's a
    first-hand account from a Manc supporter, posted with permission.
    
     
    
           <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FOOTBALL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< FOOTBALL >-
================================================================================
Note 32.1244                  Manchester United FC                  1244 of 1275
MINDER::MACDONALDI "MUFC ECWC Champions"            114 lines  13-APR-1992 12:00
                          -< FERGIES RED WHITE ARMY >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Woke up yesterday morning hoping to have a great day at Wembley and
    what happens.. I was right:-) Apart from the weather.
    
    	Got the 9am from M/cr Piccadilly down to London Euston, just to
    hear that they would be stopping at Wembley Central, saves us about 1/2
    an hour. No booze on the way down, although did see the usual drinking
    at the station at 8.30am, a bit early ! Didn't get the football
    special, and just as well the queue was nearly out the front door. We
    got the scheduled train down. The train was filled with families,
    couples etc and a good atmosphere developed. Appoaching Wembley
    Central, some lad got on the tannoy system to start sining WEMBLEY, but
    was abbruptly stopped. Police were also on the train. Was about 1pm
    when we set eye on the twin towers of Wembley Stadium, the area
    surrounding is still as bad as ever, quite a few pubs open and shops
    and a very busy off-licence. Fans mingled with no hint of trouble all
    in all in very good taste, the usual banter. After a drink or two and
    something to eat, went into the stadium. They were actually selling
    beer, upon paying 2pounds for a 50cl plastic bottle, did everyone
    notice it was low-alchohol(basically like gnats *) Hot dogs single for
    2 pounds, double for 2.50 pounds WOW!!!!
    	After the usual singing and visiting the bog a few times, it was
    now time to find our seats, with 1/2 an hour to go we thought,no
    problem, 10 to 3 and we eventually find our seats, guess what, someone
    was in them, swearing blind they were right, only to find out that they
    were on row 26 in block 133, whereas they were in block 233 and in OUR
    seats, so off they bundled.
    Out come the teams, tremendous reception, a lot of empty seats in the
    Forrest end, mind you with the expense of already been here two weeks
    earlier, I am not surprised. Anyway formalities over, national anthem
    etc... the players are warming up and the crowd are shouting through
    the team, HUGHSEY, CHOCCY, THERES ONLY ONE RYAN GIGGS etc, and the
    players acknowledging. An new-ish chant that I had not heard
    before , FERGIES RED WHITE ARMY followed by a few claps, soon learned
    the words and was a popular choice, the UTD fans were in good tune, and
    easily outsung the Forrest fans. 
    Anyway  off they kicked and Utd were out for the kill straight away, an
    early break was what they were after, and after a minute or so PHELAN
    was just in the box but could not finish off. After that it was one way
    traffic, must admit you could feel the tension in the crowd every
    time Forrest counter (which they are very good at doing) attacked, but 
    with our back four, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister
    and Parker on good form they needed something special to do it, UTD
    were closing down very quickly on Forrest, especially in midfield, were
    I thought INCE and PHELAN played extremely well, PHELAN was everywere,
    with CHOCCY also tailing back to help, then the break UTD had hoped for
    a clearance by Pallister fell to McCLAIR who in turn passed to Giggs
    who ran to the edge of the box before passing to an unmarked McCLAIR
    who calmly slotted the ball past the FORREST keeper. 1-0. The UTD fans
    went wild, and until half-time UTD kept forrest under a lot of
    presssure, SING YOUR HEARTS OUT FOR THE LADS, was the cry now, along
    with the afore mentioned chant, by this time everyone was involved. As
    the match kicked off there were some large flags going up and down the
    crowd, to which the police STEAMED in and grabbed it, not very
    friendly, no sense of fun these southern coppers:)). Anyway half time
    and although UTD had had most of the play, Forrest looked as though
    they could have pulled us back. The thing I noticed is that they tried
    to walk the ball in, I mean Terry Sheringham received the ball in the
    semi-circle of the box, unmarked and SCHMEICHEL to beat, but didn't
    look up so passed the ball, with the outcome of nothing gained. Nigel
    Clough was not very impressive, short tempered (don't like him
    personally) always looking for the quick free-kick, and kicking it at
    people if they don't move, very sporting Nigel!:-) Seemingly at half
    time there was some trouble in the Forrest end, due to the fact that
    there was about 2/3 hundered UTD fans there, quite ugly from what I
    head from a Forrest fan after the match, ah well can't always be rosy,
    a small minority, which is getting smaller!
    The second half, and I thought Forrest might try a little harder, KEANE
    getting involved aerly in the second half, but no-one wanting to take a
    shot, and the few that did come were easily saved by SCHMEICHEL. All
    this time HUGHES was his usual self, being the target for the ball
    forward, and holdin up which he did extremely well, and laid off a lot of
     good passes, to GIGGS in particular, who was finding life a little 
    difficult against LAWS, who along with WALKER were Forrests best players.
    Kanschelski on the other wing was very quiet, and rightly substituted,
    although to be fair, he was hardly passed to, a lot of the time he was
    stood free on the wing waiting for a pass that never came. UTD seemed
    to ease off a little especially in midfield, with only McCLAIR making
    any headway, a bit different from the first half, when INCE was the
    inspiration to go forward. 
    Forrest nearly equalised in the middle of the second-half when a ball
    crossed by KEANE(I think) low, to the centre of goal, for the incoming
    Sheringham was saved well by SCHMIACHEL. 
    UTD seemed contented to boot the ball up the park for the last 1/2
    hour, even when SHARPE came on for KANCHELSKI, only HUGHES and SHARPE
    were up front. SHARPE showed a lot of skill in a little amount of time,
    and maybe should have been on from the start...?
    	The last 10/15 minutes were the worst for UTD, Forrest upped their
    momentum, and went all out for the equaliser, and with some luck, good
    defending and mad scrambles, UTD managed to keep them out. Then the
    free-kick just outside UTD's box, which CLOUGH(???) took, a very good
    kick, and one from the UTD end that looked as SCHMEICHEL had saved,
    only to see a goal-kick awarded, thus meaning it had hit the back
    stansion, PHEW!! Hearts were in mouths, and the whislting from the UTD
    was deafening, still COURTNEY played on and again FOrrest thrust
    forward again, still tring to walk the ball in, then the whistle, it
    was over.
    Watched them recieve the CUP and run round, then headed back to the
    station, where we had to get a train to London Euston and from there up
    to M/cr. About 8.30pm I arrived home. Straight into the pub. I was
    travelling by train, another guy was going by plane(business trip:)),
    and he arrived home, at 1015pm, had to wait for a plane, then the
    coach party arrived at 1045pm, had phoned up at 930pm to say thay were
    at Birmingham, and the traffic was very busy(or words close to that).
    So a few bevvies were sunk and everyone went home happy. An eventful
    day, made better by UTD winning, but a good game, atmosphere etc.. and
    to both UTD and FORREST fans.
    
    Well that's my short story:). That was what it was like from the seats,
    what about from the armchair??
    
    mac (still a little tired)
                                     
              

Well, 'Pool is out of it.  Here's hoping they can win the FA Cup....


I hope they finish ahead of Arsenal....


'Saw

    
recent results 
	Thur 16th Apr

       Man Utd.           1  -  0    Southampton        

	Sat 18th Apr

       Chelsea            2  -  1    QPR                
       Coventry City      0  -  1    Everton            
       Crystal Palace     0  -  0    Oldham Athletic    
       Liverpool          0  -  0    Leeds Utd.         
       Luton Town         1  -  1    Man Utd.           
       Man City           2  -  0    West Ham Utd.      
       Norwich City       0  -  1    Notts County       
       Nottingham For     2  -  0    Aston Villa        
       Sheffield Utd.     1  -  1    Arsenal            
       Southampton        0  -  1    Sheffield Wed.     
       Tottenham Hotspur  3  -  2    Wimbledon          

	Mon 20th Apr

       Arsenal            4  -  0    Liverpool  <--Saw, you won't like this...
       Aston Villa        3  -  1    Chelsea            
       Everton            1  -  2    Man City           
       Leeds Utd.         2  -  0    Coventry City                     
       Man Utd.           1  -  2    Nottingham For                
       Notts County       1  -  3    Sheffield Utd.     
       Oldham Athletic    1  -  0    Tottenham Hotspur  
       QPR                2  -  1    Luton Town         
       Sheffield Wed.     2  -  0    Norwich City       
       West Ham Utd.      0  -  2    Crystal Palace     
       Wimbledon          0  -  1    Southampton        


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Leeds Utd.               40   20   16    4   70   35   76   35 
   2 Man Utd.                 39   20   15    4   60   29   75   31 
   3 Sheffield Wed.           40   21   10    9   61   48   73   13 
   4 Arsenal                  40   18   14    8   75   44   68   31 
   5 Man City                 40   18   10   12   54   46   64    8 
   6 Liverpool                39   15   14   10   44   39   59    5 
   7 Sheffield Utd.           40   16    9   15   63   57   57    6 
   8 Nottingham For           39   16    9   14   58   53   57    5 
   9 Aston Villa              40   16    9   15   46   42   57    4 
  10 Crystal Palace           40   14   14   12   52   59   56   -7 
  11 Chelsea                  40   13   13   14   48   57   52   -9 
  12 Oldham Athletic          40   14    9   17   61   61   51    0 
  13 Tottenham Hotspur        40   15    6   19   54   57   51   -3 
  14 QPR                      40   11   17   12   46   46   50    0 
  15 Everton                  40   12   13   15   47   47   49    0 
  16 Wimbledon                40   12   13   15   49   52   49   -3 
  17 Southampton              40   13   10   17   37   50   49  -13 
  18 Norwich City             40   11   11   18   46   61   44  -15 
  19 Coventry City            40   10   11   19   34   42   41   -8 
  20 Luton Town               40    9   12   19   35   69   39  -34 
  21 Notts County             40    9   10   21   38   59   37  -21 
  22 West Ham Utd.            39    7   11   21   33   58   32  -25 


	At the top, it's no longer a two horse race. Sheffield Wednesday (and 
    American John Harkes) are now only 3 points from the top and could snatch 
    it if the Mancs & Leeds continue with their jitters. Man U has 3 games
    left - at West Ham, at Liverpool, and at home to Spurs. Leeds is at
    Sheffield United, the hottest team in the league, and at home to
    Norwich. Sheffield Wednesday play at Crystal Palace and at home to
    Liverpool. If the Owls win their last 2 and the Mancs and Leeds don't
    win again, Wednesday will win it! Not bad for the first season in
    Division 1.

	Who'd have thought on Mar 11 that within 5 weeks, Sheffield Utd would
be 7th. On Mar 11 they were 18th looking like going down:
                              Pl    W    D    L   GF   GA   Pts  +-
  18 Sheffield Utd.           30    9    7   14   44   50   34   -6
and today:
   7 Sheffield Utd.           40   16    9   15   63   57   57    6 

   Last 10 games:             10    7    2    1   19    7   23   12

That's 2 years in a row they've done that. If they could start out a bit better
they could be a potential challenger for the championship.

>       Arsenal            4  -  0    Liverpool  <--Saw, you won't like this...


Thank God PJ isn't around to let me know about this!



>	At the top, it's no longer a two horse race. Sheffield Wednesday (and 
>    American John Harkes) are now only 3 points from the top and could snatch 

I like Wednesday's chances...



When's the FA Cup final?  Do you know if it will be telecast here?  It
was one year...


'Saw

    Is it the bottom two or the bottom three that get relegated to 
    Division 2?
    
    
    py (hoping Luton Town can avoid relegation)

Bottom three.


If I'm not mistaken, the Division II champ automatically is promoted,
and the other two spots are decided by a playoff system between the
finishers 2-5 in Division II.   (Something like that).


That's a neat system, which I like.  Three or four years ago, Leeds
was in Division II.   Newcastle was in Division I in 88, but now they
are in Division II....


'Saw

    Promotion/relegation varies from country to country. The German league
    has a system where the bottom team in Div I and the top team in Div II
    automatically move and the next 3 teams from each division have a round
    robin tournament to decide who goes up/down. 
    
    The Swiss league has a really complicated system where, after the first
    half, the league is split and teams carry over points from the first
    half and all kinds of crazy scenarios can and have occurred
    
    This is a good system to make sure teams remain competitive. For a
    border line team they have a real incentive to make sure next year's
    home opponents are Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United, etc. rather
    than Bristol Rovers, Tranmere and Plymouth Argyle. 
    
    Re Luton Town: I'm not sure why, but they seem to be the favoUrite
    whipping boys over in TRUCKS::FOOTBALL. Everyone seems to want to see
    them (instead of the 'ammers or Coventry City) go down. Maybe it's the
    equivalent to our collective feelings on UNC.
    
    Tom

    Oh yeah, the FA Cup is on May 9th. ESPN had it on TV, and I would think
    it would be on this year, but you never know....
                                     
    Mike L, when would you be going over there? If you make it to Liverpool
    on May 2, the Liverpool-Sheffield Wednesday game at Anfield should be a 
    good one. I'm not sure which of the London clubs ae playing at home
    then. The FA Cup might be worth checking out, even if you have to pay a
    "tout" (scalper). I got a ticket for 5 pounds in 1984, but we waited
    right until the start. We could even hear the band inside playing "God
    Save the Queen," and it wasn't the Sex Pistols' version.
    
    If nothing else, the Dutch footie season lasts a little longer, so you
    might be able to catch one of the premier teams like Ajax Amsterdam, 
    (pronounced EYE-acks) Feyernoord Rotterdam, FC Utrecht or Den Haag in 
    action. I've been to "De Kuip" (literally the bathtub), the stadium in 
    Rotterdam. Something to do while your wife is checking out the new tulips 
    in season!
    
    Tom   

re Luton Town:

	I'll bet it's because they have the plastic pitch.  (Or is that
	the Spurs?)


re Dutch League:

	You forgot PSV Eindhoven!   8^)


'Saw

    Alright Tom,
    I'll be in England on both May 2 and the 9th( arriving back from
    Holland in the AM ,10AMish). Maybe I can catch the FA cup. I'd much
    rather see the Scousers git wiped by Sheffield Wednesday on the 2nd,
    but I arrive in London at 7 AM that day, and it could be rushing things
    to git up there even tho it's only 1 1/2 hrs by train. We'll see. Have
    to check out the venerable Everton pitch, the hail with the 'Pool 8^).
    Do you know what time,approx, the FA Cup final is on the 9th?
    
    Thanks Dread and 'Saw fer the Dutch info. I'll see if I cain sneak away
    while the wife is tiptoeing through the tulips( She'll be mo' amenable
    to giving me grace ta see a football match than checking out the Red
    Light District in Amsterdam!) 
    
    Go Sheffield Wednesday and Sunderland!!
    
    MikeL
    

    Spurs definitely have a grass pitch. I know there is one team in
    England that does (or did) have a plastic pitch, but I don't think it
    was Luton. I remember seeing on the BBC highlights/Goals of the week
    that it was definitely a grass pitch, and since there were sooo many
    people in the stands, you could even make out the letters spelling out
    "LUTON TOWN" The seats are blue, but white seats are interspersed to
    form letters, with one letter per section.
    
    Actually, I think the anti-Luton feelings started as a a serious issue
    with one noter who thought they were boring and played kick-n-run
    soccer. Then, other people picked up on it and made it into a long
    running joke.
    
    Yeah, PSV are one of the better Dutch teams, but the Brazilian guy,
    Romero, drives me crazy. He only turns it on when he wants to, which 
    doesn't make him very popular with his Dutch team mates or the manager,
    former England boss Bobby Robson. Such a waste of talent, because when
    he's good, he's very good. The problem is, which Romero will show up?
    
    Tom 

Leary, you're getting dangerously close to having me land a big ND bash
on you 8^)

'Pool is great.  They have won more champeenships than any other English
club in the history of the League.  They have had a couple of off seasons
(which I believe started with Aldridge leaving the team).  I always
felt there was room for both him and Rush.

Beardsley is gone also, and that don't help.....


Wednesday is my other favorite team because of Harksey.  I remember three
years ago, when Sheffield got relegated all of the folks sitting in the
stands looking like their mothers had just died...






Hey Dread,  what do you say we do a get-together in England for a match?  8^)


'Saw

    Mike,
    
    Usually the kickoff is at 3:00, so even if you got into London at 7:00,
    you could make it to Liverpool by game time. Everton will probably be
    away on May 2, since they usually don't schedule 2 teams from the same 
    area home the same week. If Wednesday are at Liverpool, chances are
    Sheffield United will be home. In London there are 7 clubs, so that
    gets more complicated. 
    
    If you make it to the FA Cup, Wembeley Stadium is on the tube line
    going north of the city (I think it's purple on the map, but not sure).
    The stop is called Wembeley Park. It's very easy to  get to. Just
    follow the crowds. 
    
    I don't know about Sunderland's chances against Liverpool. Sunderland
    is way up north, near Scotland. They were last in the 1st Division last 
    year, and I think they are somewhere in the middle of the 2nd Division 
    this year. They beat Nottingham Forest and Norwich in previous rounds, 
    but, sad to say, I don't think they are really on par with Liverpool, 
    even in an off year for the Pool. 
    
    Tom 

>    I don't know about Sunderland's chances against Liverpool. Sunderland
>    is way up north, near Scotland. They were last in the 1st Division last 
>    year, and I think they are somewhere in the middle of the 2nd Division 
>    this year. They beat Nottingham Forest and Norwich in previous rounds, 
>    but, sad to say, I don't think they are really on par with Liverpool, 
>    even in an off year for the Pool. 
    
The British tech writer I worked with in France was from Sunderland.
It's about 10 miles outside of Newcastle, and the mail address for his
mum (where I send my mail to him) says "Sunderland on _____" some river
name...

It's up in that area where the folks are called Jordies, and Newcastle
Brown Ale comes from.  It's called Newky Broon.


Sunderland doesn't stand a chance against the Pool, if the Pool are on.
If they're not on, it might be an interesting contest -- for a while.


Scotland....now there's a place I wanna go....


'Saw

    re .92 (takes a little while to catch up)
    
    Sawmain, with all this Liverpool Jihad nonsense, you're beginning to
    sound like this guy over in ::FOOTBALL named Martin Cunniffe, or Cunno 
    (an English CASO?) who, whenever ManU supporters start to crow, he 
    reminds everyone by listing all of the Cups, League titles, European 
    cups, etc. that Liverpool has won in the last 25 years. He also is quick 
    to tell us what was going on the last time the Mancs won the League (1967),
    with references to the Beatles, black-and-white TV, whoever the hail the 
    PM was (Heath?), etc. It's actually pretty funny. This guy also WORSHIPS
    Aldrige, dubbing him "TGA" for The Great Aldo. Unfortunately, Aldo is
    playing for a nondescript 2nd Division side called Tranmere Rovers, and
    even though he's scoring a few, he's nothing compared to what he was a
    few years ago. He definitely took the Snuffy Smif gaspipe for Ireland
    vs England, and that woulda put Ireland in the Euro Championships in 
    Sweden in June instead of England. 
    I'll see if I can dig up a "Cunno Classic"
    
    I'd definitely like a fitba get together in England, but right now I'm 
    settling on breakfast at the FA Cup (10 am live) on TV.
    
    Dread Mon 

>                      -< Saw joins the Liverpool Jihad! >-


I've been a 'pool fan since 1988.   I think it was Rush, Aldrige,
Beardsley, Barnes, and Nicol that got me....

Yeah, Aldo is probably past his prime.  Rush is getting there also,
I'm sure.

    
>    I'd definitely like a fitba get together in England, but right now I'm 
>    settling on breakfast at the FA Cup (10 am live) on TV.
    

So, it's definite then.  I'll make plans to be in front of the TV
myself.   Last time I saw it, Liverpool took Everton(?) to 2ET to
win it...


'Saw

Hey, guess who I heard from yesterday?


You guys remember PJ (David STrage).  Anyway, he's this big Gunners fan,
and I get this mail asking me if I had heard the Liverpool-Arsenal score...


Blast from the past,
'Saw

    HA! 
    I knew the 4-0 score was something that was a little hard to
    resist! This is especailly true from a team that, a few years ago,
    opposing fans would chant "Boring, Boring Arsenal" because of their
    defensive style. Now they are much more offensive minded, and the tag
    just doesn't fit anymore. I think they led the league in goals scored
    something like 3 out of the last 4 years. They picked up Mark Wright
    form Crystal Palace this season, and along with the "Super Swede"
    Anders Limpar, they've manages to stick it into thenet on occasion. 
    
    Tom

    Well, you could say that Manchester United are the Red Sox of the
    English League. After being in first place most of the year, they were
    edged out by Leeds United for the title. Leeds beat Sheffield United, 
    3-2, while the Mancs lost to $#%&$& Liverpool, 2-0. At one point MU was
    in 1st and had 3 games at hand, but they lost to already-relegated Wet 
    Ham United, lost to 10th place Nottingham Forest and could only draw with 
    Southampton, who are about 15-18th. Out of a possible 15 points, United 
    picked up only 4. They could still lose 2nd place to Sheffield Wednesday, 
    as the Owls are one point behind and both have one game to play. 
    
    Man U and Wednesday will represent England in the UEFA Cup, Leeds in the 
    Champions Cup and either Liverpool or Sunderland (whoever wins the FA
    Cup May 9) in the Cup Winners' Cup.  
    
    Also, another tidbit from the Spurs topic. Ninj, you sure get around.
    How many jobs ya REALLY got?
    
    
Note 45.316                   Tottenham Hotspur FC                    316 of 316
                                                       33 lines  28-Apr-92 13:34
                           -< "Let's get it right" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
      I think Hugo Sanchez must be older than Lineker, I don't think he is
      really the answer to our needs. Again, the lad we got from Dundee last
>>    year, John Hendry looks like a very good prospect, as I'm sure Charlton 
      supporters will tell you, since he played there on loan this year. 
    
                                                       

    Hail Dread,
    These Eng/Euro types have got more Cups than a bowlegged catcher!
    
    Mind splainin' the FA Cup, UEFA Cup, Cup Winner's Cup, Champeens Cup,
    etc. in brief?? Sounds like more money-grubbin' useless tournaments!
    
    MikeL
    Who's practicin 'is Cockney "'Ere ya bloomin' 'ooligan, take yer
    bloody 'ands of'n me wife, or I'll 'it ya upside the noggin'. 'Oo'd
    ya think y'are, bloody Johnny 'Arkes??" 
    
    
    BTW, tis ix-nay on the FA Cup finals tix (even tho the wife said I could
    go!) Looks like a train ride to Wembley for scalpin' purposes might
    be in order!
    
    
    

Well, I'm not disappointed that Leeds took the title, even though I was
hoping Wednesday could  do it instead.

Glad Liverpool spoiled Manchester, because I wanted anybody but...8^)



Cups:  

	Mike, I'll try my hand at it.


	The European Championship Cup is a tournament with all the
	Champions of all the leagues in Europe.  This is the first year
	I believe that England is eligible, after they were banned for
	five years for the incident in Belgium.

	The UEFA Cup is a tournament that has the 2nd, 3rd place teams
	in it (if I remember correctly).

	Finally, the Cup Winners Cup is a tournament of all the European
	Teams that have won the "Cup" tourney in their leagues.   In England
	it's the FA (Football Association) Cup, and 'Pool and Sunderland
	vie for that in a couple of weeks as you know.



By the way, our term "soccer" comes from soccer being called "Association
Football" (as opposed to Rugby Football) and the lads at Oxford had a habit
of appending "er" to words, thus rugby because rugger ("Are you goin' to
play rugger, mate?") and asSOCiation football became Soccer....


'Saw

    yep, Saw is right about the Europran Cup competitions. Euro nights are
    kind of special, sort of like having a totally unrelated playoff game
    in the middle of the season. The EC and CWC start with 32 teams and the
    UEFA Cup starts with 64.(a couple of preliminary games are played to get 
    the field down to that #) Opponents are drawn out of a hat, with no
    regard for relative strength/seeding. All games are a home-and-home
    total goals series, with away goals counting as a tie breaker. It's also 
    the only time clubs from different countries play against each other in
    a meaningful game. I wouldn't put it in the same category as some of
    the money-grubbing basketball tourneys, although they certainly are
    there for money making purposes. 
    
    This year, Mighty Bayern Munich got Irish semi-pro team Cork City.
    Bayern stuffed them 5-0 in the first match in Ireland, but on the
    return leg, Cork held them until the 89th minute before Bayern won 1-0.
    The Bayern management was impressed by their grit and determination that
    they invited the Cork contingent to drink with them at the Bayern VIP
    tent in the Oktoberfest. It was said that 50 Irish people outdrank 200 
    Germans, or at least they tried to! They had a great time, especially 
    since the Irish players (who all work at regular day jobs) might 
    never again be in the position to play one of the top teams in Europe in 
    front of 70,000 in the Olympic Stadium. 
    
    The same could be said for Kuuhstii Lahti, an amateur team in Finland
    who BEAT CHAINSAW'S "MIGHTY" LIVERPOOL REDS, 1-0 before eventually
    losing the away leg. Some of the "minnows" do pretty well. A Turkish
    team whose name I won't even attempt, made it to the final 8 of the
    UEFA, before being beaten by Inter Milan, an Italian club, whose bench 
    warmers make more than the entire opposing team. 
    
    Too bad about not getting the FA Cup tickets, Mike. I would definitely
    go anyway and see what you can get from a "tout." The atmosphere is
    great. I'll never forget the sight (and smell) as I rounded the corner
    from the "Wembeley Park" Tube stop, right at the sign that said "Fly
    tippers will be prosecuted" there musta been about 15-20 guys P*ss**g
    agaisnt the wall! It was a bleedin' river, mate! Roight! Simple pipe up
    the ba'of 'is ead... 
    
    NigelDread

Dread,

Smile when you speak of the Pride of Merseyside....8^)


Dread, where do you get all your info.  Do you subscribe to any magazines?
I can't get good European soccer info for squat.  I know, I know, I should
be in the Soccer file, but that isn't where you get it all is it?

And "fly tippers" I take it are gentlemen relieving themselves in public?


later,
'Saw

    Chainsaw,
    
    I read ::FOOTBALL when I get a chance (the only conference I regularly
    read other than this one). There post all the latest results, that, if 
    I'm lucky, the paper *might* have room, but that's it. Most of the time
    there's a lot of the subjective information, i.e. comments like "You lot 
    are cr*p ! an if you doon't agree, I'll stoof sparrows doon yer froat till 
    they poke oot frew yer stomach, mate!"
    
    Some noters do put in "reasonably" objective game reports when they go,
    and there are some pretty worthwhile discussions, but not quite at the
    same level as we have here. 
    
    I also watch the English League and whatever game Univision SIN in
    Spanish is showing, and my vocabulary is improving: "La Pelota" is the 
    ball, "Para Cabesa" is wif the haid and "GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL!" needs 
    no translation
    
    For other information, I subscribe to "World Soccer" a Brittish
    magazine that I think is probably the best of the bunch. They don't
    have the obvious English bias of some, although they carry the usual
    "What's wrong with England" (national team) opinion column just about 
    every month. They cover International matches and the European & South 
    American leagues pretty well, and they also devote at least a couple of 
    pages to soccer in other areas of the world, like Asia and Africa.
    I can send you a subscription card if you are interested.
    
    When I went to the USA-Ireland game last year, I filled out a card for a
    free subscription to "Soccer International," but I think I'll let that
    one run out. They cover the US team more than anything, which is OK,
    but the writing style seems as if it's aimed at kids, and is a little
    sketchy on details and in-depth coverage. I thought it was a little much 
    when they devoted a 6-page spread to a "scoop" when one of their reporters 
    was going somewhere with the US coach, Bora Multinovic, and they got a 
    flat tire. Bora chnaged the tire in the breakdown lane of the Santa
    Anita Freeway, but they figured we'd NEVER believe them, so they published 
    several step-by-step pictures to prove it. Who Cares!  
    
    Dread

Dread,

Send me da card mon, unless it be so costly I am needin' another job to
pay for it....


The mail stop is SPO 102-2....



I'll have to watch Univision. Only problem is I can never figure out who
is playing!



'Saw

    > I'll have to watch Univision. Only problem is I can never figure out
    > who is playing!
    
    Perhaps not, but you'll surely know when they score.  :-)
    
    
    py

    Saw, WS costs about $50 a year, which comes out to about $4 per issue. 
    Considering it's air mailed and the info generally isn't available 
    anywhere else, i figger it's well worth it.
    
    It seems team and player names are the only thing that I CAN recognze
    on Univision. When the Euro Championships come along, it will be easy
    to figure out who is playng among Hollandia, Allemania, Ecossia,
    Inglaterra, Francia, Suecia, Iugoslavia and El Union Sovietica, who
    will be called something else this time. At least they put the lag
    there so you can figure it out...
    
    Dread   

Well, unfortunately, ESPN didn't cover yesterday's FA Cup final.

However, I just want the world to know that the Pride of Merseyside,
the Liverpool Reds SHUTOUT the lads from Sunderland, 2-nil.


To all the 'pool haters in here:   IN JO FACE!



8^)

'Saw

    
    The Liverpool fans were chanting - "Are you watching Manchester!"
    during the match.  
    
    

    Yeah, it turned out that it was on NESN. It pisses me off to no end
    that soccer coverage is always flip flopped between channels and times
    that fans never know what game (if any) is going to be on what channel
    at what time. Granted it is not a mass-appeal sport, but there IS
    enough interest to have it on cable at a regular time every week. The
    papers never publish listings for the Spanish station, Univision SIN, 
    which will almost always have some kind of game on, but we never know 
    when or which game.
    
    Anyway, Saw, I hope you and your Merseyside Bullies are happy beating up 
    on a team that can barely remain afloat in the 2nd division. Until last 
    week, it looked like Sunderland would be relegated to the 3rd division.
    :-) 
    
    There is an ad on English TV for some kind of drink, with a sweaty John 
    Barnes pulling off an England shirt after a game. They brought a
    lawsuit against the company for violating the "truth in advertising"
    laws, because Barnes breaking a sweat in an England shirt is so
    improbable that no one could ever believe the ad! 
    
    Dread                             

>    Yeah, it turned out that it was on NESN. It pisses me off to no end
>    that soccer coverage is always flip flopped between channels and times
>    that fans never know what game (if any) is going to be on what channel
>    at what time. Granted it is not a mass-appeal sport, but there IS
>    enough interest to have it on cable at a regular time every week. The
>    papers never publish listings for the Spanish station, Univision SIN, 
>    which will almost always have some kind of game on, but we never know 
>    when or which game.

NESN had some kind of fishing stuff on my NESN...
    
>    Anyway, Saw, I hope you and your Merseyside Bullies are happy beating up 
>    on a team that can barely remain afloat in the 2nd division. Until last 
>    week, it looked like Sunderland would be relegated to the 3rd division.
>    :-) 

Hey, Sunderland played well enough to get there.  Sunderland must be
like the Whalers -- lousy season, crank it up for the playoffs...

    
>    There is an ad on English TV for some kind of drink, with a sweaty John 
>    Barnes pulling off an England shirt after a game. They brought a
>    lawsuit against the company for violating the "truth in advertising"
>    laws, because Barnes breaking a sweat in an England shirt is so
>    improbable that no one could ever believe the ad! 
    
Hey Mon, what you be saying?  John Barnes is a true dreadmon....


;^)


'Saw

    That's the thing about Cups. A team like Sunderland can salvage their
    season by making a trip to Wem-Buh-Lee. They put together a few good
    games in the cup, and a lot of the Big Boys got knowcked out by
    minnows. Ususally this happens to a few team, but it seems that all the
    big guns lost to lower division teams (and Liverpool just *barely*
    missed joining that club) Spurs lost to Welsh giants Wrexham, Arsenal
    lost to Plymouth Argyle or someone like that, the Mancs lost to another
    team that they shouldn't have, etc. I thought Nottingham Forsest would
    be a good bet, but they got beat in the 1/4 final too...
    
    Re Barnes: Yah, mon, he's a true, I-ree Dreadmon. There was a bit of a
    fuss when in his first away international for England, they were at the 
    airport and they realized he had a Jamaican passport. He was born in 
    Jamaica, but his father was in the army stationed in England. The family 
    ended up staying in London, and John has been living there since he was 9.
    About him not breaking a sweat, he's not regarded as the hardest worker
    of all (probably not enough jobs, de layzee goot!) He always seems to do 
    the biz for Liverpool (when he's not hurt), but for some reason, he 
    disappears when he plays for England. There are other players where this 
    happens too, like ex-Liverpool John "Snuffy" Aldrige of Ireland who 
    couldn't score in a brothel for his country.   
    
    DreadMon

>    disappears when he plays for England. There are other players where this 
>    happens too, like ex-Liverpool John "Snuffy" Aldrige of Ireland who 
>    couldn't score in a brothel for his country.   
    
England is famous for players like that.  (Speaking of England, 
what's Gasgoine doing these days?)


Aldridge needs to play with Rush to score.  I thought all the stuff about
there being no room for two great strikers on the Reds was bull-hooey.

And since Rush is Welsh, and I can't ever remember seeing Wales in 
any internationals other than Rugby Tests, you're not gonna see Rush
come WC time....


'Saw

    Aside from eating Mars bars, the Fat Boy, aka Gazza, aka Paul Gascoigne
    managed to make it back to the Spurs lineup for the last few games.
    It's still up in the air whether he'll play for England in the Euro'92 
    this June. He signed a contract for Lazio Roma in the Italian League,
    but it's pending he passes a physical. Youmay remember last year's FA
    Cup agaisnt Forest, where Gazza made stooopid tackle that wasa cheap
    shot to boot, and was sent off. He tore ligamnets in his knee and was
    out for quite a while. Just when he was getting back to being fit, the
    moron re-injured his knee in a nightclub. The Lazio deal was signed
    before he got injured, and Spurs reportedly got 8 million pounds for
    him! They may have to give Lazio their money back, though. Lazio picked
    up ex-East German star Thomas Doll (the only EG player to start on the
    unified German team) instead, and he's doing far better than they expected.
    
    Re Ian Rush. Definitely a world class player. Another Welsh striker is
    from a similar mold, and that's Dean Saunders. About Wales, it is too
    bad they can't qualify for anything. The closest they've come was
    finishing 2nd to Germany in the group for Euro '92. They are in a tough
    group for 1994, with Belgium, Romania and Czechoslovakia, each of whom
    you'd have to think will make it before Wales. 2 qualify.
    
    Tom

>    out for quite a while. Just when he was getting back to being fit, the
>    moron re-injured his knee in a nightclub. The Lazio deal was signed
>    before he got injured, and Spurs reportedly got 8 million pounds for
>    him! They may have to give Lazio their money back, though. Lazio picked

I remember him getting his second yellow in the game before England's
final game in 1990 WC.  After that I lost track of him....

    
>    Re Ian Rush. Definitely a world class player. Another Welsh striker is
>    from a similar mold, and that's Dean Saunders. About Wales, it is too
>    bad they can't qualify for anything. The closest they've come was

My first exposure to Ian Rush was a highlight commercial for English League
Soccer.  

The announcer announced that clip something like this:

		Oh and the cross from [someone].....

		[you see Rush volley kick it into the net]

		Rush!


He didn't yell it, just kind of said if forcefully.  Too cool....


'Saw

For all the Liverpool Bashers, here's a good piece of news about
the Pride of Merseyside:


::: FOOTBALL
	Liverpool are planning to play French 1st division club Auxerre in July
    at Nice to raise money for the families of the accident at the Furiani
    stadium in Bastia. 


'Saw

    You can count me as a "Liverpool Basher" but I have always respected
    them as THE way to run a team (Kinda like my feelings for the Montreal
    Canadiens). Some teams like Scottish champs Glasgow Rangers, buy up
    every "star" they can find, regardless of whether or not he will mesh
    with the "Liverpool style of play." The pool has won more trophies and
    championships in the last 25 years than any team in the world. This was
    a "bad" year, finishing 5th (out of 22 teams) and making it to the
    final 8 of the UEFA Cup, but winning "only" the FA Cup. Because of this, 
    I like to see them lose, just to bring them back to earth. I also took a 
    liking to the Pool's crosstown rival, Everton, when I saw them win the 
    FA Cup over future Liverpool player John Barnes and Watford in 1984.
    
    Sadly, Liverpool know the Corsican type of tragedy all too well, so
    it's no surprise that they would play the charity fund raiser. Plus
    they are one of the biggest teams in the would and would even draw a
    big crowd if they played a game anywhere, even in the US. 
    
    In 1985, Liverpool were involved in one of the worst soccer tragedies 
    ever, when a wall at Brussels Heysel Stadium collapsed. This was really 
    tough for me, because I was in that very section 2 years earlier for the 
    Belgium vs Czechoslovakia international. I also had an aquainance who was 
    one of the Italian fans who was injured in the fiasco. Basically the 
    blame is on UEFA (for stupidity in the way it was organized) and the 
    Belgian police who were too worried about the "English hooligan" element 
    that they forgot about crowd control. 
    
    More recently in 1989, Liverpool supporters were crushed to death when
    another idiot policeman feared trouble when a crowd of people stormed
    the grounds at Hillsboro stadium in Sheffield. These people didn't have
    tickets, and the sections were already filled to capacity, but he opened
    the gate anyway. There was a high, chain-link fence around the field, so
    fans couldn't even spill out on to the pitch. Several of the people who
    died were kids, trapped between the fence and the crowd. The saddest
    part of all of this is that all of this could have been avoided.
    
    I could go on an on about this kind of thing, but for Liverpool to do
    this, it makes perfect sense. The Corsican tragedy happened when a
    small club there were hosting Olympique Marseille, the biggest team in
    France, in a Cup round. Naturally, a lot of people wanted to see this
    match, so they built a temporary stand. Unfortunately, it wasn't safe,
    and it collapsed. Easy to say this now, but why not put a giant TV
    screen in the center of town, like they did in Mexico for the World
    Cup in 1970 and 1986.
    
    Tom  

    Well lads, back from holiday and bleary-eyed.
    
    Didn't get up to Wembley unfortunately to see the FA Cup,was a
    beeyootiful London day, 45 and incessant rain. Spent the day in
    the London Museum, following a coupla elderly Chelsea birds. Kinda
    funny as we all stood 'round watching the London blitz exhibit and
    there were a plethora of German tourists near us. Now the London
    telly had been showing neo-nazi rallies over in Deutschland and
    as we watched the exhibit unfold with actual footage of the Blitz and
    Nazi marches at the time, these poor ladies looked pretty grim in
    remembrance. Some of the German tourists were laughing at something
    else but the poor women obviously misinterpreted their mirth. At that
    point with the footage of the 1930's Nazi marches running, one of
    the ladies turned to the German tourists and exclaimed rather loudly
    " And you 'aven't bloody well learned yet, 'ave you?" Stone silence
    from the tourists. 
    
    Back to sports. The dadgum British telly didn't televise the English
    FA cup but had the Scottish FA final on ( Rangers takin' the double)
    so as we walked 'round London, it seemed every place had the radio
    tuned to Wembley. Now the Scousers were heavily favored but hordes
    of Sunderland rooters bedecked in their sponsored shirts "Vaux" 
    were singin' up a storm in the Undergound headin' to Wembley earlier
    in the day and they were the sentimental favorites. Actually 'Saw,
    if'n you heard the Sunderland rooters your black heart woulda been
    torn between rootin' fer your bloomin' Scousers asnd the Vaux. Being
    close to the Scotland border, the Sunderland locals have  distinct,
    almost-Scottish burr. Anyway, Sunderland had a couple of golden
    scoring opportunities in the first half but alas squandered them and
    eventually Liverpool with great goals from Rush and Thomas, dominated
    the second half and took the Cup. 
    
    Now the Saturday before, actually May 2, I caught glimpses of the
    English rugby club final on the telly live from Wembley. Mighty Wigan
    took the Cup and decimated their opponent (Colchester or something).
    I guess Wigan is the dominant force in rugby over there as they took
    their fifth title in seven years. Interesting story: on that same day
    (Saturday, May 2)my wife and I had just arrived and were standin' in
    the tube stop in Victoria Station when a group of lads appeared
    drinkin' up a storm of Antigua beer and red wine (twas 10 AM). Seems
    they were going to see Wimbledon play a fitba match. The group of
    lsds seemed to range in age from 20's to 40's and they were really
    partyin' up. One of the guys had his son with him (musta been 10 or
    so) and one of the older gents strolled over to him, put his arm around
    the lad's shoulder and said quite loudly " Now 'ere's a good example
    of what NOT to be when ya grow up lad!" Got a good chuckle from the
    Underground crowd.   
    
    Later,
    MikeL
     

    Good one Mike! 
    
    I always got a kick out of the English people, their manerisms and
    expressions. Now if *I* was going to see Wimbledon play, I would be
    blitzed at 10:00 too!
    
    How was your trip Holland?
    
    

Mike, 

Ditto on what Dread just said.

As for Sunderland, you'll think I'm even worse when I tell you that
the best English friend I have in the world is from Sunderland.
Nothin' like  jordie, and he's the one introduced me to Newcy Broon Ale....

God, I can still hear him muttering "Bloody Bastards" under his breath
in French traffic!


But the Pride of Merseyside's root go deep into my heart.  The scarf
I wear all winter is an official Liverpool Reds "Pride of Merseyside"
scarf, and I've even got an offical Liverpool jersey.


'Pool at last count had won something like 16 championships if I remember,
and was one of one three teams to three-peat.   Don't know how many times
they've won the double.



Tell us more about your trip.  Tell us about Holland too!


'Saw

    Trip report later dudes. Ol' Blighty was nice and certainly enjoyed
    Nederland. Beautiful countryside ( even the Flower Exhibit me wife
    dragged me to was ok) Amsterdam was a trip( ahem,the local ladies of
    the evening showing their wares in their windows was, er, titillating).
    Listening to the Dutch radio stations was funny as we drove around.
    An English language song would finish and the DJ would say something
    in the semi-harsh Dutch lingo " Isch spreche das diche songen ' Jungle
    Boogie by de Kool und de Gang,' das kleine dichte gespechen lieber
    frau" etc.
    Don't know what, if anything ,I just said, but I hope I didn't insult
    anyone from Philips!!
    
    MikeL
    
    PS. In England while waqtching the changing of the Guard at Buckingham
    Palace, we struck up a conversation with a local chap who was getting
    frustrated at the surge of tourists trying to get pictures. Now it just
    happened that the majority of the tourist around us were German,
    Italian
    and Japanese. This chap looked around and muttered to me under his
    breath knowing I was American, " now we BOTH really know who won the
    bloody war, roight mate!"  8^). And when we discussed English fitba,
    I told him I was an Everton rooter and he said if I couldn't root fer
    a London team ( he was a Arsenal fan ), then Everton was better than
    the steenkin 'pool! 8^). When I said I was hoping that Manchester
    United could have won the League Cup, he smiled and said " Bloody
    sorry lot, aren't they"  
    
      

I don't know how we'll do it, but I'm seriously thinkin' that the nexted
Sports Get Together HAS to be in London.....


'Saw

    If it's for rugby, I'll do it.  If it's for soccer, NFW.  I hate
    soccer.
    
    John

>    If it's for rugby, I'll do it.  If it's for soccer, NFW.  I hate
>    soccer.
    
It'll just be to sit in a pub and take in a slice o' England...8^)

With maybe a little soccer AND rugby thrown in.....  darts too!


'Saw

    re .122 
    
    I really got a kick out of the Dutch/Flemish radio stations too when I
    was there. This was the early '80s, but in Belgium, most of the French
    language stations were still locked in a '70s time warp. Walt, you would 
    love it :-) The Dutch stations played more "new wave" or modern English
    music. Funny thing was, a lot of sttions didn't have the concept of
    programming down. There would be a '70s "Dinosaur rock" song, followed
    by the typical Euro-disco - female vocalist singing lightweigt lyrics in 
    English over the soundtrack to a John Holmes movie. Next you might hear
    a classical piece, rap, or reggae. The most bizzare thing was that
    Madonna's "Holiday" was a big hit there, but I figured it was the
    typical Euro-disco song. Then when I got back to the states Madonna was
    the biggest thing... 
    
    Dutch is definitely a harsh-sounding language. When I first heard it
    being spoken, it reminded me of a tape of Chaucer I had to listen to
    for an English lit course. Believe it or not, it's very close to
    English, and a lot of the words share the same roots: HOND is a
    DOG, werk=work, the prefix GE_ is the same as adding _ED to the end of
    an English verb. "Ik gewerken..." is "I worked" 
    
    Great country too. Holland has a history of being among the most 
    tolerant countries. When the Pilgrims left England for religious reasons, 
    they lived in Holland for 10 years before they figured they could make
    some serious money in America. Jews thrived in Holland in the 1600s,
    when they were persecuted in other areas of Europe.
    
    Amsterdam is a crazy city, a total resevior of lunacy. I used to go there 
    on an occasional weekend from Brussels, since it was only 3 hours on the 
    train.
    
    Tom

>    Dutch is definitely a harsh-sounding language. When I first heard it
>    being spoken, it reminded me of a tape of Chaucer I had to listen to
>    for an English lit course. Believe it or not, it's very close to
>    English, and a lot of the words share the same roots: HOND is a
>    DOG, werk=work, the prefix GE_ is the same as adding _ED to the end of
>    an English verb. "Ik gewerken..." is "I worked" 
    
Dutch and German are closely related too, but I guess English, Dutch
and German all share a common ancester language.


While in Paris, I'd often watch one of the Dutch stations on TV, and
the commericials almost SOUNDED English.  One of my favorites was
this totally bitchin' babe, with a mini-skirt, low-cut top, the works,
goes into the laundromat with a small back of laundry and this little
soap packet. 

In the laundry are all these women who looked like they were in those
commercials in the States where the Russian women would model "Beachwear,
Svimvear..."

So the babe comes in, throws in her laundry and the soap packet, and the
older heavy-duty women are looking like they're gonna pile drive the babe.
The babe's laundry finishes and of course it comes out whiter than
everyone elses....

All the heavy-duty women are surprised and gather round to find out
what the babe was using.


Anyway, the whole voice over was so english-like I could understand what
was going on....


'Saw

    Those are typical of the ads shown on European TV. Definitely
    Babe-O-Rama. If you noticed, not many actually have the actors
    speaking, or if they do, they only say the product name, which is 
    universal. You also might not actually see the lips move. For TV 
    production companies to make different ads in German, French, Italian, 
    English, etc. it would be too costly, so they just dub over the voices 
    in the various languages. You'll see a lot more of this in the coming 
    years as the "Single European Market" takes shape.
    
    Re German: The thing I find the most confusing is that all the verbs
    are piled up at the end of the sentence. Dutch and English have the
    same sentence structure, so that's why a lot of Dutch people find it
    easy to learn English. German also has these 17-syllable words that
    would take about 3 lines of text to type. One of my favorite words is
    for the hook that holds the bag on a vacuum cleaner:
    "Staubzaukkerbuitelbefisteger." There are a ton of other words like
    this.
    
    Tom
    

>    Re German: The thing I find the most confusing is that all the verbs
>    are piled up at the end of the sentence. Dutch and English have the
>    same sentence structure, so that's why a lot of Dutch people find it
>    easy to learn English. German also has these 17-syllable words that
>    would take about 3 lines of text to type. One of my favorite words is
>    for the hook that holds the bag on a vacuum cleaner:
>    "Staubzaukkerbuitelbefisteger." There are a ton of other words like
>    this.
    
From what I understand, at one point in time, Old English and Old German
were extremely similar.  The example given is that in German, the 
direct object is indicated by a different word ending, and not by
position in the sentence.  Thus it would be possible to say

	The King meets the Bishop

and have the Bishop actually be the direct object.


English grew away from that, and position in a sentence became important,
such that in the sentence above we KNOW that Bishop is the d.o. because
of where it's at.


As to the verbs, I have a friend who says that german is easy to learn
because you just wait all sentence for the verb....


By the way, I can't remember the word, but the German word for
factory automation is HUGE.....


btw, has the Bundesliege champ been decided yet?


'Saw

Re: Liverpool's record a few back:
    
Since Liverpool gained promotion to the 1st division after winning the
2nd Div championship in 1962, their performances have been remarkable. 
    
League Champs: 	League Runner-up:   FA Cup:  	     European Trophies:
==============  =================   ========         ==================
1963-64           1968-69           Winners:         Champions Cup Wins:
1965-66           1973-74            1973-74  	      1975-76
1972-73 	  1974-75	     1984-85          1977-78	
1975-76		  1977-78	     1988-89          1980-81   
1976-77		  1984-85            1991-92          1983-84			 1983-84
1978-79	          1986-87           Finalists:       Champions Cup Finalists:               
1979-80     	  1988-89            1975-76	      1984-85
1981-82     	  1990-91	     1987-88			  	
1982-83                                              UEFA Cup Wins:
1983-84     			        	      1972-73
1985-86      				              1975-76
1987-88       						  
1989-90                                             

(BTW, finishing 2nd is a lot more difficult than in the US, where divisions 
make several winners. The English league has had anywhere from 18 to 22 teams)

Not bad for a buch of "bleedin' scousers"   
        
           

One of my Scottish friends sent me a book that detailed the Liverpool
way of going about playing winning soccer.  They have a basic system
that they use, and it's held them in pretty good stead all these years.


I sat down and figured it out one time, all the Champs since 18xx something.
Liverpool is one of only three clubs to three-peat (to be fair, Arsenal
is also one), and they've won more championships than any other club.

They'll be back in the hunt soon.  This is just a little lull right now.


Thanks, Dread, for putting that most excellent stuff in....


Woodyward,
'Saw

    It used to be that "big" teams would develop players on youth teams and
    mix with occasional purchases from lower division clubs, basically
    developing their own stars. But like American sports, the increasing
    amount of TV money available has changed the way teams operate, and
    some say not for the better. 
    
    It used to be that "playing for the jersey" was common. Players took
    pride in playing an entire career for the same teams, or playing in the
    same area that they were from. Now, with bigger money at stake, teams
    are more competitive to gain a larger share. Salaries have gone up, but
    at least in plcae other than Italy, they are not in the same stratosphere
    of American sports. Hence the mercenary players. Play a year or 2 here
    and there, give "playing on the continent" a try, end up hating it,
    cause you cahn't get a proper pint of scrumpy loik ye kin ba' 'ome....
    
    Liverpool have money to buy players, but they have remained fairly
    constant about the chemistry factor, not unlike Red Aurbach's approach
    to the Celtics. They have a large enough pool of players to make it
    competitive enough so that players who could start for some 1st Div
    teams play in the reserves to learn the "Liverpool way"
    
    As much as I like to see Liverpool lose, you've got to admire their
    apporach to the game. BTW, this year they have had a ton of injureis to
    key players, so in all fairness, they did pretty well with what they
    had. 5th out of 22 is pretty good, but Pool fans are so used to success
    and "only" an FA Cup this year is disappointing. 
    
    Tom  

    In the German Bundesliga, the race went down to the final week. VfB
    Stuttgart nipped Borussia Dortmund and Eintracht Frankfurt at the wire.
    They beat Frankfurt by a point and even though they were even with
    Dortmund, they had the better goal difference. So those 2 will be
    joined by 1.FC Koln and last year's cahmpion Kaiserslautern in the UEFA
    Cup and Borussia Moenchengladbach play Hannover 96 in the Cup final
    this weekend. 
    
    Like everything in German society over the last couple of years, the
    Bundesliga has been working out a way to integrate the old East German
    league. This meant a 20 team league this year, but 4 teams went down
    and 2 second division teams will come up, reducing the league to 18
    teams. The last East German champion, Hansa Rostock and MSV Duisburg 
    will go down, illustrating another area where there is a wide disparity 
    between easten and western Germany. Can't say for sure, but there will 
    only be at the very most, one team from eastern Germany in the first 
    Bundesliga next season.
    
    Tom

    Results and standings from the first few weeks of the Enlish Premier
    League. Some of the Big Boys are off to a slow start. Who woulda
    thought QPR (20th last year) and Coventry City (16th) would be a the
    top of the league?
    
       Southampton         0  -  1    Man Utd. 
       Crystal Palace      1  -  1    Sheffield Wed.      
       Everton             1  -  0    Aston Villa         
       Ipswich Town        2  -  2    Liverpool           
       Leeds Utd.          5  -  0    Tottenham Hotspur   
       Sheffield Utd.      2  -  2    Wimbledon
       Arsenal             2  -  0    Oldham Athletic     
       Chelsea             0  -  0    Blackburn Rovers    
       Coventry City       0  -  1    QPR                 
       Man City            3  -  1    Norwich City        

   
        Team Name               Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Queens Park Rangers         4    3    1    0    8    4   10    4 
   2 Coventry City              4    3    0    1    6    3    9    3 
   3 Everton                    4    2    2    0    6    2    8    4 
   4 Blackburn Rovers           4    2    2    0    5    3    8    2 
   5 Leeds United               4    2    1    1    9    6    7    3 
   6 Norwich City               4    2    1    1    8    7    7    1 
   7 Middlesbrough              3    2    0    1    7    3    6    4 
   8 Sheffield Wednesday        4    1    3    0    7    5    6    2 
   9 Arsenal                    4    2    0    2    6    5    6    1 
  10 Ipswich Town               4    1    3    0    5    4    6    1 
  11 Oldham Athletic            4    1    2    1    7    7    5    0 
  12 Crystal Palace             4    0    4    0    7    7    4    0 
  13 Sheffield United           4    1    1    2    7    8    4   -1 
  14 Manchester City            4    1    1    2    4    5    4   -1 
  15 Liverpool                  4    1    1    2    4    6    4   -2 
  16 Manchester United           4    1    1    2    3    6    4   -3 
  17 Chelsea                    4    0    3    1    5    6    3   -1 
  18 Aston Villa                4    0    3    1    3    4    3   -1 
  19 Nottingham Forest          3    1    0    2    4    7    3   -3 
  20 Southampton                4    0    2    2    2    5    2   -3 
  21 Tottenham Hotspur          4    0    2    2    2    9    2   -7 
  22 Wimbledon                  4    0    1    3    4    7    1   -3 
                        
                         

Liverpool always starts slow and then blasts up the table....;^)


Look for the Reds to be in the thick of it come spring....


And where is the Great Aldo?  Is it Blackburn?


'SAw

    Naw, The "Great" Aldo is still wallowing in the cleverly re-named first
    (really second) division with Tranmere Rovers. Blackburn's Liverpool
    connection is that they are now managed by ex 'pool great Kenny
    Dagliesh. They are actually a pretty decent side, and they've spent
    some money to get some decent players. USA Striker Roy Wegerle is one
    of them. He was something like 5th in the league in goals last year
    when he was with a horrible QPR team.
    
    As for Liverpool, injuries killed them last year. John Barnes is out
    with an achilles tendon tear. They are hoping he'll be back by the 1st
    of the year. 
    
    Sheffield Wednesday ROOOL! 
    
    Tom

>    Naw, The "Great" Aldo is still wallowing in the cleverly re-named first
>    (really second) division with Tranmere Rovers. Blackburn's Liverpool

Tranmere.  Thanks, I couldn't for the life of me remember the name.


>    Sheffield Wednesday ROOOL! 
    
You'll get no argument from me here.....8^)  They're my other favorite
team....


'Saw

Latest from England:          
    
   	Sat 12th Sep

       Arsenal             0  -  1    Blackburn Rovers    
       Chelsea             2  -  3    Norwich City        
       Crystal Palace      2  -  2    Oldham Athletic     
       Everton             0  -  2    Man Utd.            
       Ipswich Town        2  -  1    Wimbledon           
       Man City            0  -  1    Middlesbrough       
       Nottingham For      1  -  2    Sheffield Wed.      
       Sheffield Utd.      1  -  0    Liverpool           
       Southampton         1  -  2    QPR                 

	Sun 13th

       Leeds Utd.          1  -  1    Aston Villa         

	Mon 14th

       Coventry City       1  -  0    Tottenham Hotspur   


        Team Name              Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Norwich City               8    6    1    1   17   11   19    6 
   2 Coventry City              8    6    0    2   10    6   18    4 
   3 Blackburn Rovers           7    5    2    0   12    4   17    8 
   4 Manchester United          8    5    1    2   10    6   16    4 
   5 Queens Park Rangers        8    4    3    1   10    6   15    4 
   6 Middlesbrough              7    4    1    2   13    7   13    6 
   7 Ipswich Town               8    2    6    0   10    8   12    2 
   8 Manchester City            8    3    2    3   11    9   11    2 
   9 Aston Villa                8    2    4    2   10    8   10    2 
  10 Leeds United               8    2    4    2   14   13   10    1 
  11 Arsenal                    8    3    1    4   10   10   10    0 
  12 Everton                    7    2    3    2    7    6    9    1 
  13 Chelsea                    8    2    3    3   12   12    9    0 
  14 Sheffield Wednesday        8    2    3    3   11   13    9   -2 
  15 Liverpool                  8    2    3    3    9   11    9   -2 
  16 Tottenham Hotspur          8    2    3    3    7   12    9   -5 
  17 Oldham Athletic            8    1    5    2   14   15    8   -1 
  18 Sheffield United           8    2    1    5    8   14    7   -6 
  19 Southampton                8    1    3    4    6   10    6   -4 
  20 Wimbledon                  8    1    2    5    8   12    5   -4 
  21 Crystal Palace             8    0    5    3   10   15    5   -5 
  22 Nottingham Forest          7    1    0    6    7   18    3  -11 

>        Team Name              Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD
>
>   1 Norwich City               8    6    1    1   17   11   19    6 
>   2 Coventry City              8    6    0    2   10    6   18    4 
>   3 Blackburn Rovers           7    5    2    0   12    4   17    8 
>   4 Manchester United          8    5    1    2   10    6   16    4 
>   5 Queens Park Rangers        8    4    3    1   10    6   15    4 
>   6 Middlesbrough              7    4    1    2   13    7   13    6 
>   7 Ipswich Town               8    2    6    0   10    8   12    2 
>   8 Manchester City            8    3    2    3   11    9   11    2 
>   9 Aston Villa                8    2    4    2   10    8   10    2 
>  10 Leeds United               8    2    4    2   14   13   10    1 
>  11 Arsenal                    8    3    1    4   10   10   10    0 
>  12 Everton                    7    2    3    2    7    6    9    1 
>  13 Chelsea                    8    2    3    3   12   12    9    0 
>  14 Sheffield Wednesday        8    2    3    3   11   13    9   -2 
>  15 Liverpool                  8    2    3    3    9   11    9   -2 
>  16 Tottenham Hotspur          8    2    3    3    7   12    9   -5 
>  17 Oldham Athletic            8    1    5    2   14   15    8   -1 
>  18 Sheffield United           8    2    1    5    8   14    7   -6 
>  19 Southampton                8    1    3    4    6   10    6   -4 
>  20 Wimbledon                  8    1    2    5    8   12    5   -4 
>  21 Crystal Palace             8    0    5    3   10   15    5   -5 
>  22 Nottingham Forest          7    1    0    6    7   18    3  -11 


To me the most shocking is seeing Forest at the bottom of the table.
And seeing Wednesday in 14th place is unusual too!


'Saw

    Anyone have access to second division standings?  I'm curious as to how
    Luton Town is doing so far...
    
    
    py

    You figure that after 7-8 games, a lot of things would sort themselves
    out, but this year is a little strange. Norwich, QPR and Coventry were 
    in the bottom 1/4 of the league lasted year. Middlesboro and Blackburn
    Rovers were in the second division.
    
    Manchester Utd and Man City were 2nd and 4th last year, so you'd expec
    them to be up there. As for Wednesday (3rd last year), Geoff Hurst is 
    their main goal scorer and he's hurt. Still, they picked up Chris Waddle, 
    and they ought to be doing a lot better. Forest are definitely better 
    than their record. Nigel Clough and Stuart Pierce are 2 of the better 
    players in the league.
    
    It's a LONG season, so it'll be interesting to see how long the
    "surprise teams" can hang in there, and how long it will tale Arsenal,
    Leeds, Liverpool, etc to move up.
    
    Tom

    .143
    
    You can probably find the First Division (what used to be the second
    division, now with the Priemier League) standings in TRUCKS::FOOTBALL.
    
    I dunno if I would admit to being a Luton fan, though. For some reason,
    in the "predictions topic" a couple of people predicted Luton to get
    relagated last year (they did) and that became the running joke. Everyone 
    started ragging on Luton, and it became synonymous with failure. Hey,
    they were't as bad as West Spam...uh, West Ham United... (Not unlike 
    some of the inside jokes that go on in here) 
    
    Tom

	Sat 19th Sep

       Aston Villa         4  -  2    Liverpool
       Everton             0  -  2    Crystal Palace
       Norwich City        1  -  0    Sheffield Wed.
       Oldham Athletic     4  -  2    Ipswich Town
       QPR                 3  -  3    Middlesbrough
       Sheffield Utd.      1  -  1    Arsenal
       Southampton         1  -  1    Leeds Utd.
       Tottenham Hotspur   1  -  1    Man Utd.
       Wimbledon           1  -  1    Blackburn Rovers

	Sun 20th

       Man City            0  -  1    Chelsea

	Mon 21st

       Nottingham For      1  -  1    Coventry City


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Norwich City              9    7    1    1   18   11   22    7 
   2 Coventry City             9    6    1    2   11    7   19    4 
   3 Blackburn Rovers          9    5    3    1   15    8   18    7 
   4 Man Utd.                  9    5    2    2   11    7   17    4 
   5 QPR                       9    4    4    1   13    9   16    4 
   6 Middlesbrough             8    4    2    2   16   10   14    6 
   7 Aston Villa               9    3    4    2   14   10   13    4 
   8 Chelsea                   9    3    3    3   13   12   12    1 
   9 Ipswich Town              9    2    6    1   12   12   12    0 
  10 Everton                   9    3    3    3   10   10   12    0 
  11 Oldham Athletic           9    2    5    2   18   17   11    1 
  12 Leeds Utd.                9    2    5    2   15   14   11    1 
  13 Man City                  9    3    2    4   11   10   11    1 
  14 Arsenal                   9    3    2    4   11   11   11    0 
  15 Tottenham Hotspur         9    2    4    3    8   13   10   -5 
  16 Sheffield Wed.            9    2    3    4   11   14    9   -3 
  17 Liverpool                 9    2    3    4   11   15    9   -4 
  18 Crystal Palace            9    1    5    3   12   15    8   -3 
  19 Sheffield Utd.            9    2    2    5    9   15    8   -6 
  20 Southampton               9    1    4    4    7   11    7   -4 
  21 Wimbledon                 9    1    3    5    9   13    6   -4 
  22 Nottingham For            8    1    1    6    8   19    4  -11 

	Sat 26th

       Blackburn Rovers   2  -  0    Oldham Athletic    
       Chelsea            0  -  0    Nottingham For     
       Coventry City      1  -  1    Norwich City       
       Crystal Palace     1  -  2    Southampton        
       Ipswich Town       0  -  0    Sheffield Utd.     
       Leeds Utd.         2  -  0    Everton            
       Liverpool          2  -  3    Wimbledon          
       Man Utd.           0  -  0    QPR                
       Middlesbrough      2  -  3    Aston Villa        


	Sun 27th

       Sheffield Wed.     2  -  0    Tottenham Hotspur  


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Norwich City             10    7    2    1   19   12   23    7 
   2 Blackburn Rovers         10    6    3    1   17    8   21    9 
   3 Coventry City            10    6    2    2   12    8   20    4 
   4 Man Utd.                 10    5    3    2   11    7   18    4 
   5 QPR                      10    4    5    1   13    9   17    4 
   6 Aston Villa              10    4    4    2   17   12   16    5 
   7 Middlesbrough             9    4    2    3   18   13   14    5 
   8 Leeds Utd.               10    3    5    2   17   14   14    3 
   9 Chelsea                  10    3    4    3   13   12   13    1 
  10 Ipswich Town             10    2    7    1   12   12   13    0 
  11 Sheffield Wed.           10    3    3    4   13   14   12   -1 
  12 Everton                  10    3    3    4   10   12   12   -2 
  13 Man City                  9    3    2    4   11   10   11    1 
  14 Arsenal                   9    3    2    4   11   11   11    0 
  15 Oldham Athletic          10    2    5    3   18   19   11   -1 
  16 Southampton              10    2    4    4    9   12   10   -3 
  17 Tottenham Hotspur        10    2    4    4    8   15   10   -7 
  18 Wimbledon                10    2    3    5   12   15    9   -3 
  19 Liverpool                10    2    3    5   13   18    9   -5 
  20 Sheffield Utd.           10    2    3    5    9   15    9   -6 
  21 Crystal Palace           10    1    5    4   13   17    8   -4 
  22 Nottingham For            9    1    2    6    8   19    5  -11 

>  19 Liverpool                10    2    3    5   13   18    9   -5 
>  20 Sheffield Utd.           10    2    3    5    9   15    9   -6 
>  21 Crystal Palace           10    1    5    4   13   17    8   -4 
>  22 Nottingham For            9    1    2    6    8   19    5  -11 


Wow.  I cannot believe that 'pool is one place out of the relegation
zone!

Something must be radically wrong on Merseyside......


'Saw

    Things at Anfield have definitely been better....Who would imagine a
    few years ago, Liverpool losing to *Wimbledon* at home! Last year they
    had a lot of injuries (but still managed to win the FA Cup and go to
    the final 8 in the UEFA Cup), but I don't know what the reasoning is
    here. I doubt very much they'll drop, but they could easily finish in
    the bottom half if they don't get their act together soon. 
    
    It is nice to see some of the "have nots" neat the top. Blackburn
    Rovers, in their first year up,  have made a commitment to not only stay 
    in the Premier League, but to actually be competitive. Norwich and
    Coventry City are also pleasant surprises.
    
    Nice to see Sheffield Wednesday beat Spurs. Hopefully this will put
    them back on track. It looks like the Owls will make the next UEFA
    round, since they beat up on some team from Luxumbourg or Malta or
    Estonia something like 8-1 last week.
    
    Tom 

	Sat 17th Oct

       Chelsea            2  -  1    Ipswich Town       
       Crystal Palace     0  -  0    Man City           
       Everton            1  -  1    Coventry City      
       Leeds Utd.         3  -  1    Sheffield Utd.     
       Norwich City       2  -  1    QPR                
       Nottingham For     0  -  1    Arsenal            
       Sheffield Wed.     2  -  1    Oldham Athletic    
       Southampton        2  -  2    Wimbledon          
       Tottenham Hotspur  2  -  2    Middlesbrough      

	Sun 18th

       Man Utd.           2  -  2    Liverpool          


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Norwich City             12    8    2    2   22   20   26    2 
   2 Blackburn Rovers         11    7    3    1   24    9   24   15 
   3 Coventry City            12    6    4    2   15   11   22    4 
   4 QPR                      12    5    5    2   18   12   20    6 
   5 Man Utd.                 12    5    5    2   14   10   20    4 
   6 Arsenal                  12    6    2    4   15   12   20    3 
   7 Aston Villa              11    5    4    2   20   14   19    6 
   8 Leeds Utd.               12    4    5    3   22   19   17    3 
   9 Middlesbrough            11    4    4    3   21   16   16    5 
  10 Ipswich Town             12    3    7    2   17   16   16    1 
  11 Chelsea                  12    4    4    4   16   15   16    1 
  12 Sheffield Wed.           12    4    3    5   15   16   15   -1 
  13 Oldham Athletic          12    3    5    4   20   21   14   -1 
  14 Man City                 12    3    4    5   13   13   13    0 
  15 Everton                  12    3    4    5   11   14   13   -3 
  16 Liverpool                12    3    4    5   16   20   13   -4 
  17 Sheffield Utd.           12    3    3    6   12   18   12   -6 
  18 Southampton              12    2    5    5   11   16   11   -5 
  19 Tottenham Hotspur        12    2    5    5   11   21   11  -10 
  20 Wimbledon                12    2    4    6   16   20   10   -4 
  21 Crystal Palace           12    1    7    4   15   19   10   -4 
  22 Nottingham For           11    1    3    7   10   22    6  -12 

Tonight

	Aston Villa	v	Blackburn Rovers

Jeez Dread,

I still can't get over how the tables are almost turned upside down....

Unbelievable!


'Saw

    Yeah, it is a little unusual that so many "surprise" teams are still
    near the top. Last year, Sheffield Wednesday finished 3rd in their
    first year up, but they were with perennial powerhouses Leeds, Arsenal,
    and Manchester United. Norwich, QPR and Coventry all flirted with
    relegation last year and finished in the bottom 1/3. Blackburn were in
    Division 2 last year. Norwich's big star is Mark Robbins, a guy who was
    rotting on the bench of Manchester United's reserve team last year.
    They sold him to Norwich, where he was given the chance to play
    regularly, and now he's the league's leading scorer...
    
    Still, they've only played 1/3 of the season. 
    
    Tom

	Sat 24th

       Arsenal            2  -  0    Everton            
       Blackburn Rovers   0  -  0    Man Utd.           
       Coventry City      1  -  2    Chelsea            
       Ipswich Town       2  -  2    Crystal Palace     
       Man City           1  -  0    Southampton        
       Middlesbrough      1  -  1    Sheffield Wed.     
       Oldham Athletic    1  -  1    Aston Villa        
       QPR                2  -  1    Leeds Utd.         
       Sheffield Utd.     0  -  0    Nottingham For     

	Sun 25th

       Liverpool          4  -  1    Norwich City       
       Wimbledon          1  -  1    Tottenham Hotspur  


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Blackburn Rovers         13    7    5    1   24    9   26   15 
   2 Norwich City             13    8    2    3   23   24   26   -1 
   3 QPR                      13    6    5    2   20   13   23    7 
   4 Arsenal                  13    7    2    4   17   12   23    5 
   5 Coventry City            13    6    4    3   16   13   22    3 
   6 Aston Villa              13    5    6    2   21   15   21    6 
   7 Man Utd.                 13    5    6    2   14   10   21    4 
   8 Chelsea                  13    5    4    4   18   16   19    2 
   9 Middlesbrough            13    4    5    4   22   18   17    4 
  10 Leeds Utd.               13    4    5    4   23   21   17    2 
  11 Ipswich Town             13    3    8    2   19   18   17    1 
  12 Man City                 13    4    4    5   14   13   16    1 
  13 Liverpool                13    4    4    5   20   21   16   -1 
  14 Sheffield Wed.           13    4    4    5   16   17   16   -1 
  15 Oldham Athletic          13    3    6    4   21   22   15   -1 
  16 Everton                  13    3    4    6   11   16   13   -5 
  17 Sheffield Utd.           13    3    4    6   12   18   13   -6 
  18 Tottenham Hotspur        13    2    6    5   12   22   12  -10 
  19 Crystal Palace           13    1    8    4   17   21   11   -4 
  20 Wimbledon                13    2    5    6   17   21   11   -4 
  21 Southampton              13    2    5    6   11   17   11   -6 
  22 Nottingham For           13    2    4    7   11   22   10  -11 

    follow up to my .143:
    
    I saw the First Division (formerly Second Division) standings in this
    Sunday's Boston Globe.  Sorry I asked about Luton...they're third from
    the bottom!
    
    
    py                                  

    I didn't know they were doing that badly. You'd think that a relegated
    team would at least still be in the top half of the lower division. The
    season is still early, so who knows, maybe the Hatters can make it back
    up to the Premier League.
    
    Tom 

It's that plastic pitch!


8^)

	Sat 31st Oct
    
       Chelsea            1  -  2    Sheffield Utd.     
       Everton            1  -  3    Man City           
       Leeds Utd.         2  -  2    Coventry City      
       Man Utd.           0  -  1    Wimbledon          
       Norwich City       1  -  1    Middlesbrough      
       Nottingham For     0  -  1    Ipswich Town       
       Sheffield Wed.     0  -  0    Blackburn Rovers   
       Southampton        1  -  1    Oldham Athletic    
       Tottenham Hotspur  2  -  0    Liverpool          
    
	Sun 1st Nov
    
       Aston Villa        2  -  0    QPR                


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Blackburn Rovers         14    7    6    1   24    9   27   15 
   2 Norwich City             14    8    3    3   24   25   27   -1 
   3 Aston Villa              14    6    6    2   23   15   24    8 
   4 QPR                      14    6    5    3   20   15   23    5 
   5 Arsenal                  13    7    2    4   17   12   23    5 
   6 Coventry City            14    6    5    3   18   15   23    3 
   7 Man Utd.                 14    5    6    3   14   11   21    3 
   8 Ipswich Town             14    4    8    2   20   18   20    2 
   9 Man City                 14    5    4    5   17   14   19    3 
  10 Chelsea                  14    5    4    5   19   18   19    1 
  11 Middlesbrough            14    4    6    4   23   19   18    4 
  12 Leeds Utd.               14    4    6    4   25   23   18    2 
  13 Sheffield Wed.           14    4    5    5   16   17   17   -1 
  14 Oldham Athletic          14    3    7    4   22   23   16   -1 
  15 Liverpool                14    4    4    6   20   23   16   -3 
  16 Sheffield Utd.           14    4    4    6   14   19   16   -5 
  17 Tottenham Hotspur        14    3    6    5   14   22   15   -8 
  18 Wimbledon                14    3    5    6   18   21   14   -3 
  19 Everton                  14    3    4    7   12   19   13   -7 
  20 Southampton              14    2    6    6   12   18   12   -6 
  21 Crystal Palace           13    1    8    4   17   21   11   -4 
  22 Nottingham For           14    2    4    8   11   23   10  -12 
    

>   1 Blackburn Rovers         14    7    6    1   24    9   27   15 


I caught these guys on a soccer show this weekend.    NOW I know why
they are doing so well.

Their manager is Kenny Dalglish.   I might have to start supporting these
guys 8^)



'Saw

    Blackburn are OK by me, even though "King Kenny" is their manager. Roy
    Wegerle of the US plays for them, although I haven't seen his name in
    the scoring too much. In their first year up, they made the commitment
    to be a good Premier League team, not just one that can avoid
    relegation by finishing 15th. Gotta like that way of thinking.
    
    Sheffield Wednesday play this (what other day could it be?) Wednesday 
    against Borussa Dortmund of Germany in the UEFA Cup. The Owls are
    wallowing around 12th place with a .500 record, and they really need a 
    shot in the arm. I dunno if they'll be able to do it, as much as I'd 
    like to see them. Liverpool are also playing in the Cup Winners' Cup
    that night.
    
    Tom  

    Saw,
    
    Since I know yer gonna ask, Liverpool are playing against Spartak Moscow
    in the ECWC. The pool lost the first leg in Russia, 4-2, so it won't be 
    easy for the Reds. They will have to win 2-0 or better. To make matters 
    worse, it was 2-2 late in the game, but Grab-at-air came out to stop a 
    breakaway and fouled the guy for the automatic red card. The Russian 
    scored the PK, and then, in the waining minutes of the game, they got 
    another one. If it was 3-2, Liverpool would have a decent chance, but 
    now, I don't know. This leg they won't have Grobbelar in goal, either, so
    it could be the end of Liverpools run in Europe.
    
    Tom

>    Since I know yer gonna ask, Liverpool are playing against Spartak Moscow
>    in the ECWC. The pool lost the first leg in Russia, 4-2, so it won't be 
>    easy for the Reds. They will have to win 2-0 or better. To make matters 
>    worse, it was 2-2 late in the game, but Grab-at-air came out to stop a 
>    breakaway and fouled the guy for the automatic red card. The Russian 
>    scored the PK, and then, in the waining minutes of the game, they got 
>    another one. If it was 3-2, Liverpool would have a decent chance, but 
>    now, I don't know. This leg they won't have Grobbelar in goal, either, so
>    it could be the end of Liverpools run in Europe.
    
DreadMon,

Why the automatic red?  Is that a new rule this year?

Grobbelar makes me very nervous.  I agree, with the way the reds have
been playing, a 2-0 victory is possible, but not probable.   I don't
even know who the backup keeper is for the Reds anymore.....


'Saw

    The "Automatic Red" rule has been in effect for a year. It is called
    for a "professional foul" ie if the ref thinks the player is doing it
    deliberaltely. I guess in this case the forward came in on Grobelaar
    and he tackled/tripped him without touching the ball. In any situation,
    it's always risky when there's a bit of interpretation involved. 
    
    I forget who the backup keeper is these days. I know he's English, so
    to get aroud the "foreigner" rule, he's played in some Euro games.
    Grobbelaar is from Zimbabwe. Even though it goes agains the EEC's labor
    regulations, teams can only play 5 "foreign" players in a European game. 
    However, a player (like Ian Rush, who is Welsh) who has been with the same 
    team in a foreign league for 5 years is considered "assimilated". It gets 
    complicated in the English League in particular, since there are 4 
    "countries" within the UK, plus the entire Republic of Ireland team plays 
    in the English League. It used to be that Ireland would find players in 
    the league with an Irish relative, so they could play for the RoI. Now, 
    these same players are less attractive to clubs, because it puts them at a
    disadvantage in Europe.   
    
    Dread

>    The "Automatic Red" rule has been in effect for a year. It is called
>    for a "professional foul" ie if the ref thinks the player is doing it
>    deliberaltely. I guess in this case the forward came in on Grobelaar
>    and he tackled/tripped him without touching the ball. In any situation,
>    it's always risky when there's a bit of interpretation involved. 

Wow, that sounds like a cheap call.

I used to play a bit of goal, back when I was a skinny kid, and the
ONLY thing in the world you could do when a guy was breaking was
to go out and get him.   More often than not you took the worst of
it (kicks in the eyes, nose, etc).   I'm suprised Grobelaar didn't
get at least a piece of the ball.

Musta been a CLEMSON Ref!


>    I forget who the backup keeper is these days. I know he's English, so
>    to get aroud the "foreigner" rule, he's played in some Euro games.
>    Grobbelaar is from Zimbabwe. Even though it goes agains the EEC's labor
>    regulations, teams can only play 5 "foreign" players in a European game. 
>    However, a player (like Ian Rush, who is Welsh) who has been with the same 
>    team in a foreign league for 5 years is considered "assimilated". It gets 
>    complicated in the English League in particular, since there are 4 
>    "countries" within the UK, plus the entire Republic of Ireland team plays 
>    in the English League. It used to be that Ireland would find players in 
>    the league with an Irish relative, so they could play for the RoI. Now, 
>    these same players are less attractive to clubs, because it puts them at a
>    disadvantage in Europe.   
>    
 
Am most confusin' mon......


'Saw


PS  What was Zimbabwe before it became Zimbabwe?

    It's impossible for me to say if'n it was a "cheap call," but it isn't
    that unusual. Usually the true red Merseysiders HOWL over stuff like
    this, but there wasn't a peep, so I assume it must be legit. 
    
    When I do the "el gato loco" impersonation as a goalie in the 7x7 league, 
    in a situation like this I try to come out as far as possible. I generally 
    try to froce him to one side, then slide, covering as much net as 
    possible. Most of the time I can get a piece of the ball, and the 
    defenders are usually roaring back, so someone can clear the ball away. 
    Yup, you cain easily get kicked in the haid, so I don't like to get too 
    close and personal. 'sides, it's a (semi)recreational league and I tend
    to get sore enough without actively looking for it. Can't wait for
    indoor to start....A week from tomorrow!
    
    Zimbabwe used to be known as Rhodesia. Grobs got his passport taken away
    a few years ago, and he bacame a dual citizen of the UK. More stable 
    times have prevailed there more recently, and he played his first game 
    for Zimbabwe over the summer in a World Cup qualifier.
    
    Tom     

>    When I do the "el gato loco" impersonation as a goalie in the 7x7 league, 
>    in a situation like this I try to come out as far as possible. I generally 
>    try to froce him to one side, then slide, covering as much net as 
>    possible. Most of the time I can get a piece of the ball, and the 
>    defenders are usually roaring back, so someone can clear the ball away. 

I used to do pretty much the same thing, trying to slide right at his
feet.  That way, it made it harder for him to chip the ball over me.



>    Yup, you cain easily get kicked in the haid, so I don't like to get too 
>    close and personal. 'sides, it's a (semi)recreational league and I tend
>    to get sore enough without actively looking for it. Can't wait for
>    indoor to start....A week from tomorrow!

Indoor has always scared me.  I've seen a lot of broken laigs from that
sport.


    
>    Zimbabwe used to be known as Rhodesia. Grobs got his passport taken away
>    a few years ago, and he bacame a dual citizen of the UK. More stable 
>    times have prevailed there more recently, and he played his first game 
>    for Zimbabwe over the summer in a World Cup qualifier.
    
Ah yes, that's it.  I couldn't for the life of me remember....



Well, we'll just have to see how the Pride of Merseyside can do......


'Saw

>                            -< You mean Everton!! >-


Bloody imposter is wot they are!

Liverpool Reds -- The Pride of Merseyside!



'Saw
    

    
	Sat 7th
    
       Arsenal            3  -  0    Coventry City      
       Aston Villa        1  -  0    Man Utd.           
       Blackburn Rovers   0  -  2    Tottenham Hotspur  
       Chelsea            3  -  1    Crystal Palace     
       Ipswich Town       0  -  0    Southampton        
       Liverpool          4  -  1    Middlesbrough      
       Man City           4  -  0    Leeds Utd.         
       Nottingham For     0  -  1    Everton            
       Wimbledon          0  -  2    QPR                
    
    	Sun 8th
    
       Sheffield Utd.     1  -  1    Sheffield Wed.     


        Team Name            Pld   W    D    L    F    A   Pts   GD

   1 Arsenal                  15    9    2    4   22   13   29    9 
   2 Blackburn Rovers         15    7    6    2   24   11   27   13 
   3 Aston Villa              15    7    6    2   24   15   27    9 
   4 Norwich City             14    8    3    3   24   25   27   -1 
   5 QPR                      15    7    5    3   22   15   26    7 
   6 Coventry City            15    6    5    4   18   18   23    0 
   7 Man City                 15    6    4    5   21   14   22    7 
   8 Chelsea                  15    6    4    5   22   19   22    3 
   9 Ipswich Town             15    4    9    2   20   18   21    2 
  10 Man Utd.                 15    5    6    4   14   12   21    2 
  11 Liverpool                15    5    4    6   24   24   19    0 
  12 Middlesbrough            15    4    6    5   24   23   18    1 
  13 Sheffield Wed.           15    4    6    5   17   18   18   -1 
  14 Leeds Utd.               15    4    6    5   25   27   18   -2 
  15 Tottenham Hotspur        15    4    6    5   16   22   18   -6 
  16 Sheffield Utd.           15    4    5    6   15   20   17   -5 
  17 Everton                  15    4    4    7   13   19   16   -6 
  18 Oldham Athletic          14    3    6    5   21   23   15   -2 
  19 Southampton              15    3    6    6   12   17   15   -5 
  20 Wimbledon                15    3    5    7   18   23   14   -5 
  21 Crystal Palace           15    1    8    6   19   26   11   -7 
  22 Nottingham For           15    2    4    9   11   24   10  -13 
    

    I was going to dedicate this reply to Tommy [isfh] Brydie, but if I do 
    that, then Brews will want one, and then Slasher, and then JaKe, and 
    then... Geez, if you get a few more a yunz, you could even put together 
    your own soccer team [isfh] Got to put Mike Heiser on the team in
    retaliation for putting me on the Suns.dis list :-) [isfh] 

European Club Championship mini-league


Nov 25 results: (home team first) 
Glasgow Rangers - Olympique Marseille  2:2				 
CSKA Moscow - Club Brugge              0:1
AC Milan - IFK Gotenburg               4:0
FC Porto - PSV Eindhoven               2:2 

Standings:
GROUP A			     P W D L GF GA  Pts
Club Brugge (Belgium)	     1 1 0 0  1  0   2 
Olympique Marseille (France) 1 0 1 0  2  2   1 
Glasgow Rangers (Scotland)   1 0 1 0  2  2   1
CSKA Moscow (Russia) 	     1 0 0 1  0  1   0
GROUP B
AC Milan (Italy) 	     1 1 0 0  4  0   2
PSV Eindhoven (Holland)	     1 0 1 0  2  2   1
FC Porto (Portugal)	     1 0 1 0  2  2   1				 
IFK Gotenburg (Sweden)	     1 0 0 1  0  4   0 

Next games to be played Dec 9, Mar  3, Mar 17, Apr 7, Apr 21  
                                                              

    
    soccer's such a wimpy game that they use colons to seperate the two
    scores, not hyphens like a mainly game.
    
    BOSS

    >> I was going to dedicate this reply to Tommy [isfh] Brydie...
       
       I wish you would have, Tom. It would have saved me from writing that
       letter to Santa.