Conference hips::uk_audioo

This is bound to start a few replies.

I think the general opinion is that you should never NEED a graphic equaliser,
but that if you decide your graphics really need to be equalised, then you need
a damn good one to make sure that music comes out the other end.

I would have thought a couple of grand for a studio quality one.

How badly do you want to use an Equaliser?

Mark.

    re-1
    
    
    2 grand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I am not after something that exotic.  It has taken me 2 year to
    save 2 grand I don't want to spend it yet.
    
    Grant

All right then, maybe I'm being a bit over the top trying to discourage you from
getting one of those evil boxes.

My rationale between the (guessed) high price, is that Equalisers only seem to
come in at an entry level price (found cheap at Richer Sounds), and that seems
to be it. Therefore to get decent quality, you have to fork out for the studio
stuff, which has (I hope!) to be good.

I must admit I've never been impressed with them. Why do you need a graphic
equaliser?

Mark.

    If you need an eqaliser, surely you cannot be happy with the way
    your system sounds. Is an electronic audio blanket really the
     right answer? Forget an eqaliser, save and get somthing to make
    the system sound better.
    
    Juju
    xxxx
    

	you can always count on audiophiles to enter 10 notes on why NOT
	to do what you want, and none whatsoever to actually offer some 
	help. Such an interesting hobby ...

	I have found that a good equalizer can be a useful tool in a 
	variety of applications, however, anyone with a _perfect_ 
	listening room and reproduction system, and those who do no 
	recording whatsoever may not need one. The one I settled on is 
	the USA made Soundcraftsmen AE2000 (list 849$, factory direct 
	for less). This unit has a pink noise generator, real-time spectrum 
	analyzer and unity gain, among other things.
	
	There are outrageously priced units from other outfits and less
	costly units which may serve your purpose. 	

							Brent

    Hi,
    
    .5 was a bit of a slur. My whole system costs less than the spectrum
    analyser you mentioned. My room has no carpets, and is therefore far
    from perfect. I still wouldn't touch graphic equaliser's with a barge
    pole!
    
    They sound to me like a con trick, telling people that they need to
    "equalise" their systems to follow room acoustics etc. Surely if there
    was any REAL attempt to adjust for the acoustics of the room, then
    you'd connect a home computer, enter the dimensions of the room, and
    what furnishing there is in it, and then you would be "equalised".
    
    My point is that "equalisation" is impossible, and far from improving
    the sound could actually cause degradation. There are probably far more
    cost effective ways to improve the sound of a setup.
    
    Because of my low spending on HiFi, and high spending on records. I see
    HiFi, less as a hobby, and more as a means of listening to records.
    
    Never could see the attraction in pink noise! ;-)
    
    Mark.

>    .5 was a bit of a slur. My whole system costs less than the spectrum
    analyser you mentioned. My room has no carpets, and is therefore far
    from perfect. I still wouldn't touch graphic equaliser's with a barge
    pole!

	No slur was intended. I was merely trying to answer Grant's original
	request for information where no one else had. On the other hand, I'm
	not sure how you can put down a piece of equipment that 1. you seem
	to know little about, and 2. costs more than your entire system.
    
>    They sound to me like a con trick, telling people that they need to
    "equalise" their systems to follow room acoustics etc. Surely if there
    was any REAL attempt to adjust for the acoustics of the room, then
    you'd connect a home computer, enter the dimensions of the room, and
    what furnishing there is in it, and then you would be "equalised".
 
	That's a fairly good description of how an equalizer works. The
	Soundcraftsman unit I mentioned is a sophisticated device that
	"reads" a room's acoustics and suggests how to compensate for
	it. It will also point out weaknesses in your speakers and other
	components. An equalizer can remove a certain amount of boxiness
	or boominess from cheap speakers. Pink noise is useful in calibrating
	for various tapes when you record. It is also in invaluable tool in 
	the recording process itself: I have used equalization to record from 
	78's, 45's, poorly recorded casettes and other sources with excellent 
	results. 

	No one has ever told me I _need_ an EQ to make my music listenable.
	But it is there for the times when something needs to be tested,
	compensated for or tailored to my needs or taste.

>    My point is that "equalisation" is impossible, and far from improving
    the sound could actually cause degradation. There are probably far more
    cost effective ways to improve the sound of a setup.
 
	Yes, if used incorrectly, equalization could cause degradation.
	Much like tone controls, loudness contours, tape EQ switches and
	biasing controls, poor speaker placement and tens of other ill -
	considered matters.
	
>    Because of my low spending on HiFi, and high spending on records. I see
    HiFi, less as a hobby, and more as a means of listening to records.
    
 	I spend high on both. As a musician, a large collection of records
	means nothing to me without a high quality reproduction system. 

	I would not suggest an 850$ EQ to someone with 200$ speakers and a
	receiver; other upgrades would certainly have precedence. 

							Brent
	

    Fair enough,
    
    The accent of .5 did seem to label us non graphic equaliser people as
    "freaks", at least the way I read it, it did!
    
    If the Equaliser is that good, then I'd be interested in having a
    listen, but still not convinced of the point.
    
    Please forgive my prejudices and carry on ...
    
    Mark.
    
    P.S. Are you based in the UK? I think I must have thought of �'s, my
    system is worth about 1,000 U.S. dollars..

    Surely what really counts in the end is that Grant is satisfied
    with the sound he can get from whatever system he choses.
                  
    If Grant likes playing with a graphic equaliser......good for him.
    After all, even most of the Japanese products with whistles lights and
    bells actually meet a need, and "haven't they done well ?"(in
    marketing/sales terms.
    All Hi-Fi is a compromise......surely it's just a case of reaching
    your own personal minimum acceptance threshold ?
                                        
    I have been through 15 years of so called Hi-Fi changing and swopping,
    and I have got almost as much enjoyment from this activity, reading
    magazines and discussing matters in this notes file as listening
    to the music !
                                          
    It is remarkable how some people with very expensive hi-fi can actually
    'like' the sound of lesser systems just because it sounds different
    from their own!
    How many of us can actually remember what a 'system' sounds like
    unless you run a head-to-head comparison ?
    
    Let's get back to enjoying music.
    
    Mr.Angry from Purley
    
    Sorry to dump this out, but it is a subject dear to my heart.(ears)
    

    Well I have been using my system without an Equalizer now for a
    while and the system sounds a hell of a lot better.  I think when
    I got the EQ my system was so poor that the EQ made it sound better.
    
    
    My original system was a JVC AK100 amp (�59) ,Turntable (�25) including
    cartrage & stylus (Sp?) and a pair of 25wpc National Panasonic speakers
    (7 years old) and I then bought a JVC KD-V100 Cassette Deck (�79).
    
    I was only 17 at the time (We all make mistakes :-) )
    
    Now that I am old and wise (21) :-) I now have a real HiFi and I
    have no need of the EQ.
    
    Grant

    This will ruin my already questionable crediablity.....if you were like
    me in earlier years, moving from flat to flat, then the room s varied a
    lot. I bought a temporary fix which  I trust will one day do itself out
    of a job......AUDIO CONTROL in the USA make a unit with a pink noise
    generator and LED screen to analyse and EQ your room......costs around
    350 pounds........there is also  a professional unit for 1500pounds
    which you can use with  a PC. Well set up, this machine managed to
    compensate for some pretty rough rooms I had my systems in. The
    Japanese companies that build EQ units are nothing more than toys IMO
    but this thing is a good work tool which one day will help me build a
    room so I can both live and hear music in it without upseting domestic
    affairs.......then I guess i will retire it to a study  system or some
    humble corner of the house, its last 'ultimate' job having been done.
    It cannot compensate for delays, only room frequency reponse.
    
    BTW. this firm only builds these things...it is a specialist product
    from a specialist company.
    
    cheers fjeff

    Interesting... Having looked at one of these "Japanese toys" I got to
    thinking (a dangerous thing)
    
    What may follows may be herecy to the die-hard purists (no offence
    intended) but seems a reasonable directions for the future of mass
    market commercial systems.
    
    Yes, if you know what you are doing (and the mass populus probably 
    haven't inclination to find out ) you can probably select all the right
    components,place them optimally,move all the furniture around to the
    amusement/anger of the spouse, ban people from opening doors/windows
    cause it upsets the acoustics etc. With the result you end up with a
    reasonably sounding systems for a particular type of music at a
    certain listening level.
    
    Now the trouble is put all the parameters together, level,music type,
    source, room etc and I guess that the system is never really optimal
    for more than brief period.
    
    So how about combining the clever chips A/D/A in the "Japenese Toys"
    (they must be available somewhere given the volumes they are now
    selling) with a reasonable microphone, A PC and an electronics engineer
    and make a 3 dimensional dynamic feedback Equalizer (TM !).
    
    Now what happens is as follows.
    
    	1) Follow all the normal steps and get the best system components
    	   you can afford. Place them optimally as before etc.
    
    	2) Plug in the "3D-DFE" where the normal Graphic equalizer goes
    	   between pre-amp and amp.
    
    	3) Put the mic in you normal listening place
     
    	4) Put on you favourite CD and let the systems take control
    	   
    	   It.....    A)  Analyses the spectrum from the mic and compares
    			  it with the spectrum from the source.
    
    		      B)  Adjusts the digital filters to correct any
    			  deviations from flat and cycles back to A)
    
    	    This will happen every few second and the changes would be
   	    progressive so as not to make the sound tone jump all over the
    	    place.
    
    	Now this should help with:-
    
    		o Quite passages mixing with loud ones
    
    		o Room accoustics changes etc
    
    		o output volume
    
    Any electronic engineers out there or am I just dreaming !
    
    Chris 
    
    
    
    
    

What lately ?

The only Philips system that I can think that you might be talking about is
the one that was born and died in the Seventies which was a speaker that
had a feedback circuit to the the driver. Basically a piezo electronic sensor
attached to the driver that measured the acceleration of the cone. If when
comparing it to the input it wasn't going fast enough it pushed up the power
etc. This allowed the small speaker to have an extended bass but depended on
and internal power amp. It did't measure sound/acoustics just one piece of the 
system.

It died because of the rapid improvement cost/performnce of small conventional
monitor/bookshelf design which exceeded the sound quality if not the range.

Now if Philips have come up with something else lately that I've missed
point me in the right direction.

Chris...,

    

    Well I picked up a Yamaha Catalogue at the weekend and suprise suprise
    they make an Equalizer that does just about what I described.
    
    It has a built in mike which monitors the room acoustics and updates
    the Digital Equalizer to compensate for acoustic deviations. It claims 
    to to do all this in realtime (but doesn't explain how) It also has a 
    pink noies generator on-board.
    
    Anyone have any experience with Yamaha Equalizers/amps etc ?
    
    Chris