Conference hips::uk_audioo

    I've just got to be the first to put a review in here on a CD player!!
    
    Like many others I started out with the PHIRRIPS 104 - which was
    a lovely little machine (mine went wrong 3 times and convinced me
    absolutely that the service from Laskys in Reading was DISGUSTING!!
    - perhaps that should go in another note!!).  Eventually I got a
    replacement machine out of them - the CD 104B - which I still have
    to this day - it works fine in my (ulp... (little letters) stack
    system).
    
    However, for my main system I needed something which reproduced
    music with a little more openness - and more at the lower frequency
    end.   As I'm the first to admit that even today CD technology is
    still in it's infancy (though growing very fast!) I didn't want
    to spend as much as I would on a full Linn record ensemble - as
    if you purchased such a lovely player as the Cambridge CD1 at 2000
    you want something PERFECT, and I don't think that one is as yet.
    So I went for second best - but a very nice sounding second best
    - the CD2.  This player really does produce nice sounds on my system
    - Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto (one of my favourites) was transformed
    by the machine into absolute heaven!! 
     
    Personally I have lived with this player for one year now, and still
    love the sound.  Others have reviewed it and the only criticism
    I've seen in the press is that it slightly lacks at the bass end.
    I can only say that I don't agree, it performs all the way down
    to some real deep organ notes that are reproduced absolutely faithfully
    and with real warmth to me!  
    
    The only slight 'niggle' with the machine is that I very quickly
    learned how to make the current track playing display swap over
    with the time expired display!!  This has zero impact on anything
    really - and I understand does not occur on the latest versions
    - (It's a bit like a Rubik puzzle to get it to swap back!!!!)
    
    For those who don't know the technical details of it, its a 16bit
    with 16 times oversampling machine with millions of DACS.  The machine
    when installed is permanently switched on to keep the DACs warmed
    up - as they do take an hour or so to settle down (the off button
    merely turns off the display!!).  
    
    All in all I'd recommend anyone who wants to take the serious CD
    alternative to vinyl, to listen to the machine - but you really
    must ensure the one you listen to has warmed up otherwise you'll
    detect a harshness which usually isn't there...
    
    Ian
    
    

    I held out and purchased a Philips CDB473.  This is a 4x/16bit machine
    which has the upgraded converter chips.  (I do not think these are
    the hand selected Q chips used in the 960 series, but may come from
    the same batch, as the specs are the same.)  I enjoy the remote
    volume control.  This model is now selling in the States for about
    $249 or so.
    
    It is significant (at least interesting) that I came to some of
    the same operationing conclusions as Mr. Percival independently.
    When I first purchased the machine I noticed that it sounded more
    tolerable after it had been playing for an hour or so.  Also, there
    was a 1-2db channel imbalance when I first installed the machine
    that eventually went away as the machine was used (after a month.)
    
    What I've done is to leave the machine on all the time.  I do this
    with all my electronics (except my Linn and my tape deck - I know
    the Linn is idling before it is switched on) so I figure a CD player
    is just like anything else.  Again, this follows the lead of the
    Cambridge people.
    
    I've also plugged my CD player directly into my crossover, bypassing
    my preamp, and use the remote control as the volume control.  There
    is a significant improvement in the sound in terms of all dimensions.
    However, there is no question that the variability betweeen recordings
    (sonic quality) is as great as it ever was for LPs.
    
    All in all, I think that the CDB473 is a good value.  I wouldn't
    want to listen to CD's on anything less good sonically given my
    system.  However, when I reinstall my QUADs (esl), who knows!
    
    Bill
    
    

    I am out to buy a new CD player to replace my Phillips CD450 which
    has gone on the blink. My heart (and credit card) is set on the
    Marantz 65IISE. Does anyone out there have one of these/any views/any
    better ideas around the 300 pound mark.
    
    Mike O' 

    Hi Mike,
    I do not have any personal experience to offer, but the US audio
    conference rates the Marantz very highly in that price range. I
    was thinking of getting the Denon 910 a while ago but will now
    re-consider the Marantz.
    Calvin

    re.3
    
    Mike a bought a Marantz CD50SE last weekend (replaced the CD65IISE)
    it cost me �300 from Hellas in reading and I did not have to wait
    3-4 months for it.
    
    It is fantastic!!!
    
    If anyone in the Reading area wants a demo send me mail.
    
    Grant Taylor @RDL
    PEKING::TAYLORG
    
    Grant

    Hi,
    
    Today I saw a sign in "Wires" window in the Butts that stated 
    Marantz players were about to undergo a price rise. 
    
    I thought CD player technology was meant to be bringing prices 
    down! 
    
    I wonder if the rise will come with some minor performance improvements
    of the players...
    
    But, maybe waiting till next summer will see the one bit technology
    taking over, and a few knock down prices!! 
    
    Malcolm
    
    PS, any thoughts on how the CD50SE compares with Sony models which 
    seem popular in the US based Audio conference? 
    
    
    
    

    re-1
    
    Well the CD50SE came out top in a review (What HiFi CD Supplement)
    with the Sony CD 970 and other players ranging from �250 - �350.
    
    PS I am bias (Sp?) I own a 3 week old CD50SE and it is FANTASTIC.
    
    Grant

    re .6
    
    Bitstream technology may take over, it's had some rave reviews and some
    duff ones too.  No matter what technology is used, the best sound will
    be produced by players that attend well to power supplies, quality of
    capacitors etc along with the quality of the bitstream from the
    transport itself.
    
    Yes different CD transports do sound different. 

    
    Does anyone have any experience they can share with matching a CD player
    to an existing system that only consistes of modest components? 
    I'm interested to know if the differences that are likely to be heard 
    in a 200 pound player and a CD50SE are noticable or significant. 
    Or putting it another way, what level of components do you need before 
    the quality of a CD50SE will be heard?
    
    I have a bottom of the range NAD receiver (7020?) and some 
    Monitor Audio R300MD  speakers (I know the speakers are overkill but
    the Amstrad ones I had eventully blew, so I bought knowing that 
    'one day' I'd buy a CD. I also liked the sound!). 
      
    Malcolm

    re-1
    
    I have A Sansui AU-G11X amp (�120) and a pair of �90 AR 8Ls speakers
    and the sound difference is increadible with the CD50SE compared
    to the 3 year old JVC XLV-220 (�180) CD player I had (more bass
    & smother bass and more detailed sound).
    
    I you are in the Reading area I can give you a demonstration if
    you wish.
    
    Grant

    re .9....
    
    Your receiver and speakers will do justice to any CD player up to �600,
    but are good enough to show a cheap model up for what it is, unless you
    choose carefully; listen before you buy.
    
    Dave

    Do any one know the review of DENON 1630 as compare to MARANTZ CD80 and 
    PHILIP 840 ? Which sound better ?
    
    Thanks
    Parry

The current issue of HFN/RR has a review of the CD840 and Marantz CD50SE amongst 
others. They didn't rate the Phirrips that much, in spite of being bit-stream - 
they said the 50SE was better!

    I know that MARANTZ CD50 and CD60 has very good review, how about the
    MARANTZ CD80 or CD85 ? I am consider to get one but have very little 
    information about it.
    
    Thanks
    Parry

    Has anyone read (or got)a review of the Sony CDPX33 ES?  I heard one at
    the weekend, and I was very impressed.  I was trying to decide between
    that and a Phillips CD850, and an Arcam machine.  The Phillips had a
    lovely smooth sound, but the Sony had more punch.  Anyone have any
    opinions on these machines, or know anything about them which I should
    be aware?  The Sony and The Phillips are the first CD players I have
    heard which I think are worth the fuss over CDs, but I guess thats
    another rathole.
    
    Thanks
    
    Mikef

    Hi,
    
    I have a SONY CDP X33ES, bought a couple of months ago, and am very
    happy with it.  I had the opportunity to compare it with a Denon (can't
    remember the number but was around �350) and the Rotel bitstream player
    at Audio T in Basingstoke.  There wasn't much to choose between it and
    the Denon, both of which were noticeably more punchy than the Rotel.
    
    Aside from the sound quality, the build is very impressive and it has
    some friendly features, which I would rate as a plus over the Arcam.
    
    Note 2773.* in VAXWRK::AUDIO has some people raving about this player,
    but I'm not sure if there are any comparisons done with the Philips and
    Arcam machine you mention.
    
    nick

    Well, I got the Sony player - and I'm impressed.  I've never been too
    sure about CDs as a whole, but this machine has made me change my mind.
     It has a great punchy sound, which is well rounded and not at all harsh.
     Seriously worth listening too...
    
    It comes equipped with gold plated interconnect leads, but I may get
    some thicker leads from Reading hifi
    
    BTW - I got it from Tru Fi in Aldershot, who gave me a �70 discount for
    cash.
    
    Mikef

	Needs must when the devil drives. Recently I re-examined the
	options for buying a CD player so I can get some CDs to
	supplement my record collection. I've been down this route
	before, and I won't bore anyone with why I've always decided
	to leave CD alone.

	However there's been some other pressures lately. Firstly some
	of the compilations and anthologies on CD are getting better in
	terms of content and value. Secondly my wife wanted a re-issued album
	recently that is now only available on CD or tape; my initial
	inclination was to persuade her to get it on tape or a used record,
	but it occurred to me that I was being somewhat selfish in refusing to
	have a CD player in the system whilst spending hi-fi-dedicated
	money on improving the record player or electronics; also, given the
	way catalogues are moving, I was cutting off my nose to spite my face,
	as it where.

	Choice has improved at quality CD entry level, so after a quick
	comparison with an Arcam Alpha, I eventually took home a Micromega
	Optic (both sounded streets ahead of any CD player I'd heard before.
	I don't usually buy hifi after such a brief dem, but I felt that no
	matter how long the dem was, I would hear things different to what
	I was used to; what I needed to do was to get a CD player in the
	system, buy some CDs, and try to get used to the wretched thing.

	I expected to be disappointed, but I wasn't; not completely, anyway.
	Overall the sound was acceptable, with timing, perceived pitch and
	dynamic shading more or less consistent between the different
	instruments/players, giving an overall impression of solidity and
	authority, a sense of reality I had not heard from CD before. I
	still only have a a dozen or so CDs, but so far have heard little
	of the dreaded CD harshness; sure, some recordings are brighter than
	others, moreso than with LP recordings, but there appeared to be
	little correlation between spectral balance and ADD or DDD recordings.
	On some CDs (CBS Simon & Garfunkel reissues) the treble was a bit
	OTT, but listenable.

	The main inconsistency seems to be in resolving low level detail.
	On some recordings there was less of a sense of "hearing right
	to the bottom of the track", decays cut short, ambience echoes
	not sounding as related to the incident sound as they could be.
	Also one recording (a GRP Jazz sampler) sounded like all the
	musicians were playing at gunpoint and hating every minute of
	it; a major gripe of mine I had noted with CD before. Hey
	Broken-Nose, play the piano. Some of this was lessened after
	tidying cables behind the system, seperating power and audio
	signal carrying cables, etc. although I didn't cure it until
	later; although this wasn't a problem with records, they sounded
	better after this audio housekeeping. Placing the player on steel
	cones and shorting the digital output lessened the effect a little
	more.
	
	(Anybody know if a 50 ohm resistor across the digital o/p would
	be better? I may try it and post the result in here.)

	Now I didn't really want to get into this; after my escapades with 
	Beltology I'd had enough hifi paronoia to last me a lifetime without
	getting into this green pen thing. But on Sunday afternoon I was
	browsing in a stationery shop whilst my wife was looking for some
	birthday cards, and I saw these Pilot water-based permanent markers,
	and something in my brain snapped; I bought a green one. It works,
	dammit. The aforesaid complaints are now reduced to below the point
	where they stop me getting into the music. Improvements seemed more
	significant on discs with rough edges.

	Some technical questions:-

	1. The DAC is a bitstream design; on the DAC module are four pots
	in two groups of two. Are these the base level and slope controls
	for the DAC?

	2. Does anyone know an adjustment procedure for these pots? I guess
	a test disc of some sort and a scope at least as good as a
	Tektronix 475 would be needed.

	Thanks in advance for any tips for this CD novice!

	Dave

    
    (no help to your main question...)
    
    What did you think the difference was between the Alpha and the Optic ?
    
    I've not heard the Optic, but I did hear an Alpha recently which was
    very definitely better than my current (4 year old) CD player. It
    seemed to be less harsh, it resolved much more detail, and just
    generally sounded better.
    
    Trevor

Dave,
	Could you provide some info. on these Micromega CD players. From what
I can gather they make three. The cheapest of which is based on a Philips player
with improved PSU + their DAC - is this the Optic ? How much does it cost ?

	Not thet I'm thinking of buying one :-)

		Rik

    APRIL SP rated Sony X77ES CD player class B recommendation. And now
    Sony introduce another new CD player X777ES. I listen once at a
    Sony dealer, the setup is all Sony except speaker using POK audio.
    
    The vocal is very good, but there is not other player to compare, may
    be some of you can providesome update. I am very sure you will hear a
    big different. At least, it will be better than the CD80.
    
    It used the new Sony develope 1-bit chip and operate at 50MHZ.
    A very well build player, weight 17Kg.
    
    Happy auditing.
    Parry

    re .19 and .20
    
    I'll start another topic.
    
    Dave
    

    
    At the same time I heard the Arcam Alpha, I also listened to the Delta.
    The Delta seemed to have a *slightly* softer presentation, and it
    certainly produced much less bass. I preferred the Alpha.
    
    Trevor

    Not really a review, but just some impressions.....
    
    I heard a Naim CDS last week. It was slightly out of context, driving a
    Naim Nait and those tall Rega speakers  whose name escapes me}i.
    
    Frankly I was underwhelmed. It sounded OK, but for three grand I would
    expect a smidgeon more than OK. All the usual CD tweeks still improved
    its sound, and it still had that slightly over-lit treble that most CD
    players have, compared to live sounds.
    
    Maybe Naim regard it as a statement of iintent, rather}i than a serious
    product. I certainly wasn't convinced by it.
    
    Dave

    Quote from a Linn employee when asked how good the new Linn CD player
    will be.
    
    	``I will not be selling my LP-12''

    I have a set of Epos ES14 loudspeakers, and I guess they deserve
    something better than my Philips CD650. I have read a review of the
    Arcam Alpha Plus (Hifi Choice, November '92), and its sound is being
    described as "a bit light". I don't know what that will mean for the
    Epos, which has not got that much bass already.
    
    Anybody any experience with the ES14 and Arcam Alpha (Plus), or another
    good CD player? I don't need features, I just want to get the most out
    of the ES14!
    
    Also refer to notes 16.21 and 13.11.
    
    Jelle Kooi @APD (Apeldoorn, the Netherlands -- YES, Philips was my
    previous employer....)
    

    Not heard them but the Pioneer "Legato" players get good write ups as
    does the Alpha plus.  As Trevor says, most CD's are pretty good now. 
    Id looks are important, you could do worse than Arcam CD and amp.
    
    I listen a lot to a system with Naim 135 monoblocks and ES14's.  Going
    from Naim NAC A5 speaker cable to Linn K400 (bi-wired ES14's) with both
    +ve's down one side and the -ve's down the other.  Vast improvement in
    bass quanity and quality, treble is cleaner too.

    The Musical Fidelity CDT has got good reviews. This is the player with
    the valve analogue section. Features are ultra basic but the sound is
    said to be very good. Interesting review in this months Hi Fi Choice
    where it was reccomended, especially interesting was the 3D trace which
    looks like the surface of the moon i.e on paper the measured
    performance looked a nightmare yet the double blind test came out with
    a definite thumbs up. 
    KK in HFN&RR said it warmed up existing recordings which i would say is
    a good idea. A lot of my CD's are dreadful recordings but I would'nt
    swap them for the world.
    
    Worth trying especially if you like the unusual.

    Hi Fi Choice have given also a good review to Philips 950 and quoted as
    best buy the Technics SL-PG620 (which was aparently voted as best by
    the test 'blind' listeners). The Technics SL-PG620 is the brother of
    the SL-PG520 which has won also the title of 'best buy'. They have the
    same quality (qouted : good+ for lab tests and very good for sound).
    The 620 is a 'tarted up' 520 and a bit more expensive (230 pounds
    versus 200) and includes optical output and distinct digital and analog
    power units. The 520 has a 'jog shuttle' control (radio button allowing
    you to scan at variable speed the CD).
    Me, I have bought (in replacement of a dead CD player) a SL-PG520 and
    I'm very happy with it. Excellent bass, no rough edges, crisp high
    range and no loose of quality in musically 'crowded' situations. Fine
    stereo image and excellent dynamics. It sounds very natural.
    The 520 (and 620) use 4 MASH ICs (they share the same converter
    electronics). Last but not least the headphone output is high. I use my
    Sennheisers 540 headphones directly connected to the CD player even
    when I need high volume.
    I usually listen classical music, opera and .. heavy metal. The 520
    showed no weakness in any of the cases.
    
    Sorin

    A good friend of mine recently auditioned a 'brace' of CD players at
    the Music Room in Manchester. He did'nt really have a budget in so far
    as "If it sounds that good then maybe I'll consider it".
    
    he has Linn Index speakers and the Linn Integrated Amp and currently
    uses a Denon CD player. 
    
    He mailed me with the findings which were quite interesting. he
    listened to the Arcam Alpha+, Musical Fidelity CDT, NAIM CDS, Linn
    Arkik/Numeric and the new single box Linn AND the player that HE rates
    as in a league of its own and the one he intends to buy.
    
    His answer, surprisingly was the new CD player from SUGDEN. 
    
    He reckons that it knocked all the others into a coked hat, in terms of
    it's musical presentation and lack of digital nasties AND at #800.00.
    
    I'd read a good review of their DAC a while back but had'nt realised
    they had done a complete player. 
    
    Maybe a player to add to your audition list. he is a die hard Linn man
    and was seriously considering the Linn player (either!), but the SUGDEN
    won him over. He also reckoned the CDT was good for the money.
    
    I'd never considered this player before, which is why I placed this
    note. Anyone else come across it ?

    I recently auditioned the Marantz CD10, and compared it with the Teac
    VRDS10 and Marantz 72SE. The rest of the set-up consisted of Audioquest
    Quartz interconnect, Musical Fidelity A120 amplifier, Audioquest Indigo
    speaker cable, Epos ES14 speakers on Standesign stands.
    Of these three CD players, the CD10 was the most musical one. If you
    can't afford it or want to spend less then some 1100 Pounds, the 72SE
    is a good alternative. Frankly I don't understand why the Teac receives
    so much positive feed-back in the press: it looks superb, but its sound
    is too forward and can be quite tiring to listen to. The CD10 on the
    other hand was asking for disk after disk after disk....
    An interesting thing happened wwith the interconnects. We started using
    the van den Hul "The Second", tthe balanced version of "The First".
    These two cables (made of carbon) appear to make many people quite
    happy, but in this set-up the "traditional" copper Audioquest cable was
    superior and only costs a third or so.
    The total set-up --even with the CD10-- did not yet live up to my
    expectations. In fact, my good old Philips CD650 with Yamaha CA2010
    appeared to be not that bad. I spoke to a dealer who even suggested to
    retain the Philips for a while and just swap the amp for the Naim
    NAIT03 integrated or Naim separates. A tempting idea, so I will be
    auditioning such a set-up in the near future. To be continued, in the
    amp reveiw note, that is....
    
    Jelle "Jelli" Kooi