| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name
 | Date | Lines | 
|---|
| 4642.1 | Go to the TOP | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Wed Jun 05 1996 10:39 | 11 | 
|  |     
     Seems like you have a good case.  Don't screw around with escalating
     it to your management, they'll just blow you off.  After all they put 
     you in thsi position in the first place.  Take your original
     note, and e-mail it to Palmer, and copy your management.  This is your
     only path.  
    
     Good luck,
    
     Bob
    
 | 
| 4642.2 | Think it through... | MPOS01::BJAMES | I feel the need, the need for SPEED | Wed Jun 05 1996 11:52 | 12 | 
|  |     Or Dick Fishburn, he's the worldwide V.P. of Personnel.  He HAS to hear
    your case per the open door policy.  Just remember if you open door it,
    and you have in my opinion every reason to do so, than there is no
    going back.  You may want to think through your strategy a bit 'cause
    if you go to BP and he declines, than your only recourse is to go up to
    the Board of Directors, which is highly unlikely.  Pick a place in your
    organization where you know you can start, be crystal clear in your
    approach, get all your paperwork together in a SAFE place and when you
    launch, remember you can't go back to the pad.  
    
    Good luck
    
 | 
| 4642.3 | Ferrales, not Fishburn | GVA05::DAVIS |  | Wed Jun 05 1996 12:33 | 1 | 
|  | The last time I looked, Fishburn was CIO.  The head of HR is Sid Ferrales.
 | 
| 4642.4 | good luck, hope you keep your job | ESSC::KMANNERINGS |  | Wed Jun 05 1996 14:16 | 1 | 
|  |     I agree with the base note, it certainly does seem unfair
 | 
| 4642.5 | a little spit and polish, first | SUBSYS::BERMAN |  | Wed Jun 05 1996 14:17 | 13 | 
|  |     May I kindly suggest that, if you decide to elevate the issue
    and forward your memo, you run a spell-check and grammar-check
    on it first.
    
    As the saying goes, you only have one chance to make a first
    impression. Your career here rests on making the right impression.
    You must present yourself in a professional manner; yes, you have
    a legitimate issue and it deserves to be addressed. That memo will 
    be the first thing Palmer or a VP sees, so it has to be
    grammatically perfect. Don't give them any ammunition!!
    
    good luck!
    griz
 | 
| 4642.6 | dis ain't a stokrume | NASEAM::READIO | A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks | Wed Jun 05 1996 15:47 | 11 | 
|  | >
>    May I kindly suggest that, if you decide to elevate the issue
>    and forward your memo, you run a spell-check and grammar-check
>    on it first.
>
Agreed!  My wife is an executive secretary/office manager and she has 
terminated employees who could not proof-read their employer's white papers.
Someone in a senior admin position should have a command of the English 
language if that person wishes to compete.
 | 
| 4642.7 | I've seen worse from engineers | NETCAD::PERARO |  | Wed Jun 05 1996 16:09 | 10 | 
|  |     
    RE: The last few
    
    Maybe the basenoter was more concerned with trying to save her job
    before the end of the week, instead of worrying about if she
    spelled something correctly in her basenote, which was probably written
    while under a great deal of stress.
    
    Mary
    
 | 
| 4642.8 |  | DRDAN::KALIKOW | MindSurf the World w/ AltaVista! | Wed Jun 05 1996 23:44 | 3 | 
|  |     Observation:  By posting the matter for discussion, the basenoter has
                  *already* launched and is away from the pad.
    
 | 
| 4642.9 | what IS that smell? | SCASS1::WILSONM |  | Thu Jun 06 1996 00:30 | 2 | 
|  |     That is not the smell of rocket fuel....it is the smell of burned
    bridges. 
 | 
| 4642.10 |  | BIGQ::SILVA |  | Thu Jun 06 1996 07:24 | 6 | 
|  | | <<< Note 4642.8 by DRDAN::KALIKOW "MindSurf the World w/ AltaVista!" >>>
| By posting the matter for discussion, the basenoter has *already* launched 
| and is away from the pad.
	... and on their way to the lawyers office...
 | 
| 4642.11 | The smell has changed | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Thu Jun 06 1996 09:17 | 10 | 
|  |     
    This is for .9 reply.
    
    Your response takes on the smell of someone that is overconfident that
    their job will never go away.  Think again.  Nobody's job is safe. 
    Looks what's happened at the PCBU this week. HMMMM, shall we shoot for
    say #99 in the PC business vs. #5.  Ask Bernard Auer !!!!!!  Oh, you
    can't, he was fired.  Kill it.
                                                  
    
 | 
| 4642.12 | Thank you | PCBUOA::LPIERCE | The Truth is Out There | Thu Jun 06 1996 10:04 | 14 | 
|  |     
    Thank you all for your support.  You shared your own personal stories
    with me and they really helped in alot of ways.  Thank you for taking
    the time and giveing some super advice.
    
    I wish I could thank you all one-by-one but it would take longer then
    Friday at 5:00pm :-)
    
    I'm still fighting, and I also had a very good interview - everything
    is in fates hands now.
    
    Thank you all!
    
    Louisa 
 | 
| 4642.13 |  | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Every knee shall bow | Thu Jun 06 1996 10:08 | 12 | 
|  | 
 re .11
 What happened in the PCBU this week?
 Jim
 | 
| 4642.15 | more info please .... | TROOA::MSCHNEIDER | Digital has it NOW ... Again! | Thu Jun 06 1996 10:54 | 3 | 
|  |     re: .14
    
    Can you elaborate on "NT products are now in the SBU"?
 | 
| 4642.16 |  | HDLITE::SCHAFER | Mark Schafer, SPE MRO | Thu Jun 06 1996 11:59 | 4 | 
|  |     My mistake, I retract the statement.  I probably misunderstood the
    memo, and it's marked confidential anyways.
    
    Mark
 | 
| 4642.17 |  | N2DEEP::SHALLOW | Subtract L, invert W | Thu Jun 06 1996 13:25 | 12 | 
|  |     re: .13
    
    Jim, PCBU has been TFSO'ing. 33% here in the western region.
    
    Regarding the base noters concerns, I thought it was standard rule of
    thumb temps got the push before badges? No offence to any temps, as
    that's how I got my foot in the door, but regardless of connections in
    "high" places, they should go first.
    
    By the way, are there any temp VP's? ;-)
    
    Bob
 | 
| 4642.18 | just a thought | DV780::LANGFELDT | Coloradical | Thu Jun 06 1996 13:31 | 4 | 
|  |     
    Might it be that the corporation doesn't have to pay benefits
    to temps and contractors?
    
 | 
| 4642.19 | Temps do stay. | ODIXIE::DWYERR |  | Thu Jun 06 1996 15:35 | 4 | 
|  |      re .17
    
    I have seen many Digital folks go and temps (contractors) stay within
    the consulting ranks.
 | 
| 4642.20 | TFSO 39? | IMTDEV::WEBER |  | Thu Jun 06 1996 18:40 | 3 | 
|  |     Speaking of TFSO.. Can someone please tell me what the current 
    TFSO package includes?  
    
 | 
| 4642.21 |  | TENNIS::KAM | Kam WWSE 714/261.4133 DTN/535.4133 IVO | Thu Jun 06 1996 20:05 | 8 | 
|  |     Knock knock anyone home???  Yesterday and today I needed to get some
    information from some of the local employees and I was informed that 
    they have been layed-off last week.  It's been pretty quiet except for
    the individuals being transferred to CA.  Anyone know what's happening? 
    Will anyone be around to provide assistance?
    
    	Regards,
     
 | 
| 4642.22 |  | TOOK::MINTZ | Erik Mintz, dtn 227-3604 | Thu Jun 06 1996 22:13 | 6 | 
|  | >    the individuals being transferred to CA.  Anyone know what's happening? 
>    Will anyone be around to provide assistance?
The folks transferred to CA have already gone (last friday).
In what area were you looking for assistance?
 | 
| 4642.23 | TEMPORARY VP'S ???  BE REAL | BIS1::GEERAERTS |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 01:51 | 14 | 
|  |     re: .17
    
    What did you say ? Temporary VP's ????????
    Hey, I've just updated my VP summary list, don't screw it up.
    
    BTW, we now have a bunch of 215 VP's, and I'm finding some more all the
    time. Has somebody an average cost for one VP ?
    
    What did BP suggested for Q4 ? To cut costs ? Well I have a suggestion
    .......
    
    Regards,
    
    Frans 
 | 
| 4642.24 | And no company paid health care | BOXORN::HAYS | Some things are worth dying for | Fri Jun 07 1996 07:19 | 6 | 
|  | > what the current TFSO package includes?
I am hearing that it's three weeks pay.
Phil
 | 
| 4642.25 |  | ACISS2::LENNIG | Dave (N8JCX), MIG, @CYO | Fri Jun 07 1996 07:42 | 4 | 
|  |     re: health care
    
    Yeah, the recent notice about DEC dropping the medical/dental 
    31 day grace period after June 16th struck me as "interesting".
 | 
| 4642.26 |  | ICS::CROUCH | Subterranean Dharma Bum | Fri Jun 07 1996 07:50 | 11 | 
|  |     re: .23
    
    215 VP's now, hmmm, maybe we could sell them all off in one whack.
    A package deal of sorts. Since we seem to be having a slow tedious
    going out of business sale this could be a way to continue to make
    some money before the lights are turned off. 
    
    Tongue is firmly in cheek. 8-) 
    
    Jim C.
    
 | 
| 4642.27 | The perfect Java applet! | HERON::KAISER |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 09:36 | 8 | 
|  | A rolling display of VPs per employee: the perfect Java application.
	... now 288 employees per VP ... now 285 employees per VP ...
The last time I thought to calculate the figure, it was 340.  A year before
that, 440 (before selling the database business to Oracle).
___Pete
 | 
| 4642.28 | what ??? | MKOTS3::FLATHERS |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:23 | 5 | 
|  |     
       You can't possibly be serious.  3 weeks pay + NO health care grace
     period !!!! ???
    
    
 | 
| 4642.29 | The current TFSO Package  --The Current TFSO Package - | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:32 | 17 | 
|  |      
    
     Reply to .20
    
     I checked with the TFSO office in May.  The TFSO Office is at MSO.
    
     4 weeks mandated by the state + 8 weeks from Digital + your vacation
     pay.
    
     12 weeks + your vacation weeks  = how long you get paid after you
     exit.  I also believe that there may be 1 more week.  This is the 
     week held back when you first started at Digital.
                                                             
    
    
    
    
 | 
| 4642.30 |  | ATLANT::SCHMIDT | See http://atlant2.zko.dec.com/ | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:36 | 10 | 
|  |   But the change in Health Care payments is entirely accurate.
  Digital now forces you to buy COBRA coverage approximately
  one month sooner than you would have prior to this latest
  announcement. This represents a very real diminution in the
  TFSO package.
  Just one more small example of how much Digital cares about us.
                                   Atlant
 | 
| 4642.31 |  | BOXORN::HAYS | Some things are worth dying for | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:51 | 11 | 
|  | RE: 4642.29 by ICS::TOOMEY
> I checked with the TFSO office in May.
Is there a current official statement on VTX or on the internal Web?
If true,  12 weeks would rather reduce the rate of resume printing... 
There are a lot of people around here in a panic/funk state right now.  
Phil
 | 
| 4642.32 | Medical Benefits - | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:55 | 9 | 
|  |     
    For reply .28
    
    A friend of mine that got whacked this week. FULL medical continues
    through the mandate 4 weeks (by the state) and the duration of the TFSO
    (8 weeks for people with between 15 - 20 years).  The vacation $$ are
    paid to the TFSO'er as one separate check.            
    
     
 | 
| 4642.33 | Coverage from carrier | PHHSS1::BCAVALIERE |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 10:59 | 5 | 
|  |     My healthcare (U.S. Healthcare) provides a 'parachute' plan which
    provides a continuance of coverage for 30 days after your release
    date, provided you've been employeed/had coverage with them for
    at least one year.  Maybe other carriers have this now too.
    I'm not sure of the exact details.
 | 
| 4642.34 |  | ACISS2::LENNIG | Dave (N8JCX), MIG, @CYO | Fri Jun 07 1996 11:03 | 42 | 
|  |     I'm not sure if this will apply to TFSO, but as of June 16th...
    
                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M
                                        Date:     28-May-1996 07:43am EST
                                        From:     U S Benefits
                                                  USBENFITS@A1@SALES@AKO
                                        Dept:     U.S. Personnel
                                        Tel No:    
TO: See Below
 
Subject: Change in Medical and Dental Coverage Continuation                     
  Starting June 16, 1996, Digital is changing its policy for continuing 
  medical and dental benefits when:
  
  o  You terminate employment and are not eligible for coverage as a 
     Digital retiree
  
  o  You change to an ineligible employment status, or
  
  o  Your covered spouse or dependent becomes ineligible for coverage.
  
  In the past, coverage was continued automatically for 31 days.  As of 
  June 16, coverage will end at midnight on the date any of these events 
  occur.
  
  We're making this change because the 31-day coverage extension 
  overlaps with your ability to continue coverage for up to 18 or 36 
  months through COBRA.  As long as you apply for COBRA on a timely 
  basis, you and your family can be covered effective back to the date 
  coverage ended.  For more information about COBRA, please see Your 
  Benefits Book.
  
Distribution:
This message was delivered to you utilizing the Readers Choice delivery 
services.  You received this message because you are a U.S. Employee.  If you 
have questions regarding this message, please contact the Benefits Express
1-800-890-3100.
 | 
| 4642.35 | Clarification  - | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 11:12 | 14 | 
|  |     
    Response to .34
    
    The .34 e-mail is CORRECT.
    
    However, don't get confused by this e-mail.
    
    The policy in the .34 e-mail happens only after your state mandated (4
    weeks) and the Digital TFSO weeks expire.  Your current Medical is in
    effect throughout this timeframe.  The severance pay clock starts the
    first Monday after your last Friday at Digital. 
    
    
     
 | 
| 4642.36 | "TFSO" at our competitors | DECWET::APPELLOF | Kathy Appellof - dtn 548-8773 | Fri Jun 07 1996 12:46 | 30 | 
|  | I don't usually participate in conferences, but what the heck...
I left Digital voluntarily in 1994 after 14+ years with the company. 
"Company-X" offered me a deal too good to be true.  About 10 months
after being with "Company-X" I was told that my job was being moved
to another location.  Even though I was very bitter at the time I
still feel that their layoff package was extremely fair, especially 
since I hadn't been with the company that long.  It was also a learning
experience from a legal standpoint.
I was first given a minimum of 12 weeks of pay.  Add to that an additional
1 week because of the time I was with the company.  From a legal 
standpoint I learned that because I was in a protected age group (over 40) 
as defined by the federal gov't they couldn't ask me to sign a 
statement that I wouldn't sue for discrimination without extra
compensation.  To "Company-X" that meant offering me an additional
2 weeks of pay.  My medical and dental insurance was provided for 30 days.
In my state I could immediately start unemployment insurance and I 
qualified for 40+ weeks.  I felt that I could easily take my time looking
for the right job and not panic for approximately 6 months.
Regarding the conversion to COBRA, and I'm sure it's much the same with
Digital's COBRA plan.  When I checked into my cost for COBRA for family
(family=me and my husband) it was $450/month.  Absurd to say the
least.  Thankfully my husband was at Digital and took advantage of 
signing us up for the local HMO.
The good news was that I was only unemployed for a couple of months.
And I'm happy to report that I was rehired at Digital and am very happy
with what I'm doing.
 | 
| 4642.37 |  | BOXORN::HAYS | Some things are worth dying for | Fri Jun 07 1996 13:03 | 21 | 
|  | RE: 4642.35 by ICS::TOOMEY
> However, don't get confused by this e-mail.
I'm sure more than a few did.  I'm one.
As for the current TFSO package,  I'm guilty of listening to lunchroom and 
hallway conversations.  I did try to find the official word,  but there is 
nothing posted in VTX or on the Web that I could find.  Hardcopy of last 
year's policy isn't very comforting in the face of rumors of new policy.  HR 
aka Personal office is miles away.  I guess I should have talked to my 
management,  but they seem to be spending a lot of time in meetings they 
can't talk about and that seem to be giving them a lot of stress.  
Why can't Digital post the current policy someplace on the net?  All I can
find is references to a plan from the "Corporate Cross Organization
Transition Committee".
Phil
 | 
| 4642.38 | TFSO then and now | ALFA2::ALFA2::HARRIS |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 13:24 | 18 | 
|  |     Re .36:
    
    Digital required (probably still requires) all TFSO subjects, no matter
    what their age, to sign an agreement surrendering their right to sue
    the company in order to receive the "financial support option."  Until
    1994 or 1995 the FSO was given as a lump sum, which should clearly
    and legally identify it as nontaxable compensation for the required
    signature.  However, Digital, the Comm of Mass and the IRS insisted and
    continue to insist that it was "salary continuation" and therefore
    taxable.  In addition, TFSOed employees were prevented from applying
    for unemployment benefits until after the period supposedly represented
    by the lump sum.  A lawsuit to recover taxes withheld, brought by former 
    IBM employees who suffered the same fate, is still pending in the courts.
    
    Digital now doles out the FSO weekly to solidify its claim that the
    payments are in fact taxable salary.
    
    M
 | 
| 4642.39 | dead on my friend | ICS::TOOMEY |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 13:31 | 4 | 
|  |     
    ref:  replyer .38
    
    You are 100% correct.
 | 
| 4642.40 |  | PADC::KOLLING | Karen | Fri Jun 07 1996 14:16 | 8 | 
|  |     Re: .38
    
    I dimly recall that when my group was TFSOed a couple of years
    ago in Calif, we were immediately eligible for unemployment benefits
    (mod something like a one or two week waiting period) because the
    state considered us unemployed even though Dec was handing out
    the transitional checks.  
    
 | 
| 4642.41 | Unemployment varies by state | PLESIO::SOJDA |  | Fri Jun 07 1996 15:37 | 13 | 
|  |     RE: .38 & .40
    
    The interpretation of when unemployment insurance starts is up to the
    state.  When I was TFSO'd in 1993 in Vermont, the state umemployment
    department told us directly that you could collect unemployment after
    your vacation accrual was used up + a 1 week waiting period.  The lump
    sum payment did not matter -- you were still considered to be
    unemployed after your vacation time.
    
    This was sharply different to what was going on in Mass. at the same
    time.  I do not know if the fact that Digital now gives it out over a
    period of weeks rather than a lump sum changes things.
                                        
 | 
| 4642.42 |  | LEXSS1::GINGER | Ron Ginger | Sun Jun 09 1996 15:21 | 7 | 
|  |     Several replies here have a line like " when I was TFSO's"
    
    I thought TFSO meant you were gone. Does anyone have any idea how many
    people were TFSO's (in the old days, with good benefits) and are now
    back? 
    
    I assume most of these are back as contract?  
 | 
| 4642.43 |  | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1) | Sun Jun 09 1996 16:45 | 4 | 
|  | re Note 4642.42 by LEXSS1::GINGER:
        Didn't Andy Warhol predict that in the future everybody will
        have TFSO benefits for 15 minutes?
 | 
| 4642.44 | Process steps | PLESIO::SOJDA |  | Mon Jun 10 1996 08:59 | 13 | 
|  |     RE: .42
    
    TFSO means you are officially notified that your job is gone and unless
    you find another internal job within the allotted time you are gone
    too.  In my case, I was picked up by another group so the TFSO was
    reversed.  However, I went through the whole process (except for the
    final one) and got to see all of the signed paperwork (which I still
    have).
    
    Other people did leave the company via TFSO but were rehired later on.
    
    Larry
    
 | 
| 4642.45 |  | BUSY::SLABOUNTY | Grandchildren of the Damned | Mon Jun 10 1996 10:08 | 7 | 
|  |     
    	Same for me ... I was "picked" but opted for a lateral move in
    	the same organization.
    
    	Some have been re-hired as contractors and some have been re-
    	hired as permanents.
 | 
| 4642.46 | hard head not hard hearted | SCASS1::WILSONM |  | Mon Jun 10 1996 11:18 | 7 | 
|  |     RE .11
    
    Notification of TFSO doesn't mean the end of employment at dec, just
    the end  of your particular position. Many people have continued with
    DEC...but not after they "burned their bridges". I might add that
    working for Digital, even if it's 14 years, is a job not a life. That's
    what my wife tells me anyway.
 | 
| 4642.47 | Unretire? | STAR::jacobi.zko.dec.com::JACOBI | Paul A. Jacobi - OpenVMS Alpha Development | Mon Jun 10 1996 14:38 | 10 | 
|  | >>> Notification of TFSO doesn't mean the end of employment at dec, just
>>> the end  of your particular position.
Appearently, the same is true for some employees, who took "early 
retirement" with all the geneous benefits and are now back working for 
Digital.
						-Paul
 | 
| 4642.48 | sign and you're history | NASEAM::READIO | A Smith & Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks | Mon Jun 10 1996 15:07 | 28 | 
|  | >>> Notification of TFSO doesn't mean the end of employment at dec, just
>>> the end  of your particular position.
once you sign your TFSO papers, you're gone (even though you're here for 
the rest of the week)  You usually get to sign on Monday and your last day 
is Friday.
If you find another job between Monday and Friday, you'll need SLT approval 
to the hiring manager just to get a job offer.
'twasn't always that way, though.  Seems a marketing organization was 
downsized back when TFSOs were corporate downsizing measures (today's are 
organizational downsizings).  ANOTHER marketing org picked up the folks who 
were involuntarily downsized.  A memo from David Landry (US Transition 
Program Office) detailed the approval process that resulted from this 
flagrant disregard  of the corporate downsizing effort.  The date on the 
memo was in the late December 1993 timeframe.
Many of us that are still here after signing our TFSO papers were lucky 
enough to have done so before the marketing fiasco and the resulting 
restrictions on job offers.
Few organizations notified their staff beforehand that they were to be 
signed off.  A few let people know they were at risk and some people found 
jobs before they had to sign out.  Those that didn't find jobs before the 
fateful Monday were history.  Some are back as contractors and a couple 
have actually been re-hired I've been told.  I don't know any, though.  A 
lot of folks I worked beside are back as contractors.
 | 
| 4642.50 |  | ICS::SOBECKY | John Sobecky DTN 223-5557 | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:49 | 15 | 
|  |     
    	re .0
    
    	I truly feel badly that you are being TFSO'ed, especially when
    	someone else in your group would like to trade places.
    
    	But...and please don't take this personally..why do you think you
    	have a case regarding contractors? There is no union in Digital.
    	If Digital chose to TFSO *everyone* and replace them with temp
    	labor, they have every legal right to do it.
    
    	It may not be right, but it's true.
    
    	John
    
 | 
| 4642.51 | 'Forced' to buy into COBRA? | ICS::SOBECKY | John Sobecky DTN 223-5557 | Tue Jun 11 1996 07:53 | 26 | 
|  |              <<< HUMANE::DISK$SCSI:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 4642.30                 This TFSO seems unfair                     30 of 49
ATLANT::SCHMIDT "See http://atlant2.zko.dec.com/"    10 lines   7-JUN-1996 10:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      But the change in Health Care payments is entirely accurate.
  Digital now forces you to buy COBRA coverage approximately
              ^^^^^^
    one month sooner than you would have prior to this latest
  announcement. This represents a very real diminution in the
  TFSO package.
  Just one more small example of how much Digital cares about us.
                                   Atlant
    
    
    	???????????????
    
    	Forces you? As in holding back money from your final paychecks?
    	Or do people still have choices they can make?
    
    	John
                       
 | 
| 4642.52 | What IS the legal position? | ESSC::KMANNERINGS |  | Tue Jun 11 1996 08:13 | 23 | 
|  |     re .50
    
     >If Digital chose to TFSO *everyone* and replace them with temp
     >labor, they have every legal right to do it.
    
    Is this statement true for the USA ??
    
    Is there no legal protection against age discrimination ? I am not
    suggesting that this is company policy, it is obviously not, but can
    any employer in the US turn round and say to his employees: "Sorry guys
    and gals, you are all over 52 and my statistics tell me you are more
    likely to be off sick, slower to learn new tricks, more expensive than
    graduates who have the latest technology and altogether a grumpy bunch.
    The quickfix employment agency has a queue of replacements available.
    So long its been good to know you?" 
    
    Would not an employer who pursued such a policy be dumping bad risks
    onto the welfare system and abusing the system?
    
    (BTW, I am nearly the oldest guy sitting in this office and I don't
    think the stereotype above is correct or makes economic sense)
    
    Kevin
 | 
| 4642.53 |  | LEXSS1::GINGER | Ron Ginger | Tue Jun 11 1996 08:39 | 12 | 
|  |     There are laws in the US about age discrimination, but in gneneral they
    are weak and its very hard to prove you have been discriminated by age-
    there are always many other factors to cloud the issue.
    
    And yesterday our Supreme Court upheld a companies right to 'buy off'
    age discrimination charges by extra payment. The case involved a big
    company that offered 'early retirement' packages to reduce staff. To
    get the special offer you had to sign away your right to sue, and for
    that they added a bit to the payoff amount.
    
    In fact, a company could do exactly as suggested, layoff every employee
    and hire temps. Digital is well on its way to this.
 | 
| 4642.54 |  | BUSY::SLABOUNTY | As you wish | Tue Jun 11 1996 09:52 | 8 | 
|  |     
    	It boggles the mind to try and figure out how someone could sue
    	for age discrimination after receiving an "early retirement"
    	package.
    
    	I guess it would make more sense if it were forced, rather than
    	optional.
    
 | 
| 4642.55 | you get told don't you? | ESSC::KMANNERINGS |  | Tue Jun 11 1996 10:05 | 3 | 
|  |     well that is the point isn't it. It is clearly not optional. If it were
    optional there would be no problem, indeed, it may be a good idea for
    some people. 
 | 
| 4642.56 | re .54 the younger employees could sue for age discrimination though! | BEAVER::MCKEATING |  | Tue Jun 11 1996 10:09 | 21 | 
|  | RE "It boggles the mind to try and figure out how someone could sue
    	for age discrimination after receiving an "early retirement"
    	package."
It may not be the early retirers who sue but it could swing the other way 
if you were a younger employee who was offered less money than someone 
with the same qualifications and length of service.
In Digital Scotland at the moment there are 4 limits set for maximum
redundancy:-
less than 50       max 12months
          50-55    max 15months
          55 -63.5 max 18months
          63.5-65  (...)
I would not be happy if I was 49 and qualified for 18months dosh but it was
capped at 12 and a team member was 50 and got 18. That's where age
descrimination could be a possible case.
Bob (who's 31 :-))
 | 
| 4642.57 | Im baaack | PCBUOA::LPIERCE | The Truth is Out There | Tue Jun 11 1996 10:16 | 6 | 
|  |     
    FWIW:  I'm still at Digital, and I have a new and super job!
    
    All your notes really did help alot, thanks once again.
    
    Louisa
 | 
| 4642.58 | happy end | ESSC::KMANNERINGS |  | Wed Jun 12 1996 07:44 | 4 | 
|  |     Well done Louisa, and good luck with the new job. Isn't Digital a nice
    company to work for?
    
    Kevin 
 | 
| 4642.59 |  | MKOTS3::FLATHERS |  | Wed Jun 12 1996 17:06 | 6 | 
|  |      .53,  I beg to differ..... the Age Discrimination Act of 1967 
    does in fact have teeth.  Occasionally, I read articles in the papers
    regarding this law being tested. In a nutshell, it protects workers
    over 40.
    
    
 | 
| 4642.60 |  | BHAJEE::JAERVINEN | Ora, the Old Rural Amateur | Thu Jun 13 1996 04:15 | 11 | 
|  |     FWIW, there are plans to change the law here in Germany...
    
    The current law doesn't explicitely talk about age discrimination, but
    defines quite clearly the criteria to select employees eligible (or
    rather, not eligible) for redundancy - age is a significant factor, in
    addition to years of service etc.
    
    The suggested new law would allow the employer to take the "balanced
    personnel structure" into account when selecting people to be TFSOd -
    we all knowwhat this means...
    
 | 
| 4642.61 |  | ATLANT::SCHMIDT | See http://atlant2.zko.dec.com/ | Fri Jun 14 1996 14:33 | 24 | 
|  | John:
> ???????????????
> 
> Forces you [to buy into COBRA]? As in holding back money
> from your final paychecks? Or do people still have choices
> they can make?
  No, they don't force you in that sense. You can choose to:
    o Buy coverage *OTHER THAN* the COBRA-required-to-be-provided plan,
    o Instantly find another job that provides health care, or
    o Go bareback, doing without health care coverage.
  Regardless of how it's phrased, Digital is now not paying for one
  month of health care that they used to pay for. It's just one more
  niggling little cut in employee (ex-employee?) benefits taken by
  our management in the continuing belief that they can do whatever
  they damned-well please and we, the sheep, will never so much as
  say "Bah!".
                                   Atlant
 | 
| 4642.62 | Just leave without telling anyone | MIASYS::GORNEAULT | Being politically correct is being mentally inept | Fri Jun 14 1996 15:58 | 12 | 
|  |     It appears that they don't want you to give a notice.  If you give
    notice to leave on Friday and start your job on Monday it means no
    coverage over the weekend.
    
    So I guess either give notice after you've started your new job, or
    take vacation to overlap, or just leave and let them try to find you
    :-).
    
    It amazes me at the shallowness of the logic of these people.  
    Add this one to the bi-weekly pay  and the ....
    tony
    
 | 
| 4642.63 |  | AIAG::WEISSMAN |  | Fri Jun 14 1996 16:38 | 7 | 
|  | Actually it means that people will give notice to
terminate on a Monday and start their new job on
Tuesday so there's no lapse in coverage.  This means
that Digital will end up generating an extra paycheck
for the person for one day's pay.  So Digital will save
the cost of medical coverage for a month and incur the
admin. cost of an additional paycheck
 | 
| 4642.64 |  | TEXAS1::SOBECKY | It's complicated. | Sat Jun 15 1996 00:27 | 15 | 
|  |     
    
    Re .61 Atlant
    
    I know what you mean, I know what you're saying.
    
    They (Digital Management) don't give a damn about how their decisions
    affect the people that have worked for the for years and years.
    
    They can clear their conscience by saying, "Well, we gave them a choice
    for health benefits".
    
    I'm sorry if it seemed I was arguing with you.
    John
    
 | 
| 4642.65 |  | PADC::KOLLING | Karen | Mon Jun 17 1996 14:03 | 5 | 
|  |     I believe you can buy COBRA retroactively for a month or so.
    If that's correct, at least the danger of being instantaneously
    without coverage isn't there.  Not that I think this is a swell
    decision.
    
 | 
| 4642.66 | Double Coverage? | USCTR1::ESULLIVAN |  | Mon Jun 17 1996 14:37 | 7 | 
|  |     
    If this were possible (.65) and you started a new job, say, within a
    week, so that you were now covered under your new job, would you be
    reimbursed for the 3 weeks out of the month that you are covered under
    the new job?  If not, isn't that double coverage?
    
    ems
 | 
| 4642.67 |  | PADC::KOLLING | Karen | Mon Jun 17 1996 14:57 | 5 | 
|  |     Re: .65
    
    I forget how the gory details of the reimbursement for partial
    months work -- perhaps there isn't any.
    
 | 
| 4642.68 | Nasty loophole alert | ROWLET::AINSLEY | DCU Board of Directors Candidate | Mon Jun 17 1996 22:15 | 4 | 
|  |     Just don't get into a car accident and go into a coma for 31 days or it
    will be too late to retroactively apply for COBRA.
    
    Bob
 | 
| 4642.69 | COBRA is a waste | IMTDEV::WEBER |  | Mon Aug 05 1996 15:21 | 4 | 
|  |     COBRA in most cases will cost you 4 to 5 times what you currently are
    paying for medical coverage.  Tell me who can afford COBRA that is out
    of work and asked to pay that much more than when they had a job.  
    Check it out.  COBRA is useless!
 | 
| 4642.70 |  | SUBSYS::MISTOVICH |  | Mon Aug 05 1996 16:04 | 14 | 
|  | COBRA still costs less than if you try to buy insurance on your own.
COBRA is intended to help those who would be unable to purchase insurance on
their own -- for example, if you had a "pre-existing condition" that insurance
companies use to deny insurance. I know of someone who is starting her 2nd year
of remission from cancer. She cannot purchase insurance until she has been
cancer-free for a specified number of years. 
The problem with COBRA is that 18 months is not long enough to protect her (and
presumably many others). Therefore, she will have to be uninsured for some
number of years and stay healthy during that time. Or pick up the costs of
surgery, chemo, and/or radiology herself if the cancer recurs. Unless, of
course, the Massachusetts coverage for uninsured people doesn't run out (which
it may already have).
 | 
| 4642.71 |  | IROCZ::MORRISON | Bob M. LKG1-3/A11 226-7570 | Thu Aug 22 1996 17:38 | 2 | 
|  |   Re -.1: Pres. Clinton just signed a law that will help people in this situ-
ation, but it doesn't go into effect until next July 1.
 | 
| 4642.72 | I can't stand the suspense | CSC32::MORTON | Aliens, the snack food of CHAMPIONS! | Thu Aug 22 1996 18:40 | 6 | 
|  |     Re .71
    
    Ok Bob, what did he sign.  I've not been keeping up over the last few
    months...
    
    Jim Morton
 | 
| 4642.73 | for those awkward in between times | DSNENG::KOLBE | Wicked Wench of the Web | Thu Aug 22 1996 19:16 | 8 | 
|  | The latest bill is one for people who are either changing jobs or lose
their jobs. Insurance companies must allow them to be able to continue
their same coverage. Even if ther is a pre-existing condition. I don't 
believe there is any price limit however.
They also can no longer cancel your policy if you make the mistake of
becoming ill. What a concept. Anyway, there is more but I wasn't paying
attention. It also has something about medical savings plans. liesl
 | 
| 4642.74 | the Reuters "text bite" | R2ME2::DEVRIES | Mark DeVries | Fri Aug 23 1996 10:12 | 22 | 
|  |     Used without permission and with the political interjections removed,
    here is the story from Yahoo! Headlines:
    
    
    Wednesday August 21 3:40 PM EDT 
    
    Clinton Signs Modest Health Reform Law
    
    WASHINGTON (Reuter) - President Clinton, opting for modest health care
    changes after failing to achieve sweeping reforms, Wednesday signed a
    bill making it easier for workers to take their health insurance with
    them when they change jobs. 
    
    The bill also allows a pilot program for 750,000 so-called Medical
    Savings Accounts to replace conventional health insurance policies for
    employees of small companies or self-employed people. In addition,
    it gives the self-employed a bigger tax break on health coverage they
    buy for themselves.
    
    [In other words, pretty much what "Wasn't Paying Attention" said. :-) ]
    
    -Mark
 | 
| 4642.75 | Layoff waivers being investigated | ASABET::SILVERBERG | My Other O/S is UNIX | Fri Aug 23 1996 14:10 | 15 | 
|  |     Story in the 8/13 edition of the Boston Globe on how the Mass AG is
    expanding their investigation of companies forcing layed-off 
    employees to sign away their right to sue or testify at proceedings
    regarding their layoffs if they want their severance.  Bull is the
    first company being investigated.
    
    Details can be found at Boston Globe Archives
    at http://www.boston.com/globe/archives/
    
    or more direct at
    http://vutextgty.infi.net/global/cgi-bin/boston/slwebcli_get.pl?DBLLIST=
    bg96&DOCNUM=30749
    
    Mark
    
 | 
| 4642.76 | Correct Globe archive URL | DECCXX::AMARTIN | Alan H. Martin | Mon Aug 26 1996 13:44 | 11 | 
|  | Re .75:
>    or more direct at
>    http://vutextgty.infi.net/global/cgi-bin/boston/slwebcli_get.pl?DBLLIST=
>    bg96&DOCNUM=30749
Spelled correctly, that's:
http://vutextgty.infi.net/global/cgi-bin/boston/slwebcli_get.pl?DBLIST=bg96&DOCN
UM=30749
				/AHM
 |