Conference 7.286::digital

    Please decode the acronym NSM?  Where is the development group based? 
    What products?  Who are some of the more well-known managers,
    engineers, marketeers?  Tnx...
    
    ... and best wishes to the new CA folks. 
    

Perhaps it has something to do with the attached announcement?
    
    So Polycenter becomes CA-Unicenter - a la Oracle/Rdb - is that correct?
    
    /Chris.
    
    
    
Subject: Strategic Alliance: Digital and Computer Associates                    1

    ***************************************************************
    *								  *	 
    *   This Announcement is from Enrico Pesatori and John Rando  *
    *							 	  *
    ***************************************************************

  On April 13, 1996, Digital Equipment Corporation and Computer 
  Associates, a leading software provider in the industry, entered into a 
  strategic alliance to collaborate in a range of product and service 
  areas to support the delivery of comprehensive enterprise computing 
  solutions. 
  
  The selection by Computer Associates of Digital as the charter and 
  founding member of the new Preferred Service Provider program is one 
  aspect of this exciting new agreement. The Alliance will act as the 
  umbrella for collaboration in a number of areas both in the short and 
  longer term.  
  
  Read the attached positioning paper to understand the scope of the 
  Alliance.  Then review the presentation and list of Questions & Answers  
  that have been developed.  
  
  As this Alliance has just been concluded, we are sharing this 
  information with you immediately.  More details will follow over the 
  next several weeks.
  
  

  
  	      STRATEGIC ALLIANCE -- DIGITAL AND COMPUTER ASSOCIATES 
  	      	   	     A Positioning Paper
  	      	   
  	      
  Digital, a leader in networked enterprise computing, and Computer 
  Associates, a leading software provider in the industry, have entered 
  into a strategic alliance to collaborate in a range of product and 
  service areas supporting the delivery of comprehensive enterprise 
  computing solutions. 
  
  For Digital, this is the third strategic alliance announced in the last 
  18 months with leading software companies, the other two being 
  Microsoft and Oracle.  In support of Digital's software strategy, the 
  alliance emphasizes Digital's commitment to partnering with the leaders 
  to offer the best range of software in the industry on Digital 
  platforms, complementing Digital-developed software. Computer 
  Associates has an impressive track record as a leader in the software 
  industry, with products today encompassing system, information, and 
  business management software.  For Computer Associates, the alliance 
  means it can capitalize on Digital's service strengths and 64-bit 
  Alpha computing technology.
  
  The announced alliance will act as the umbrella for collaboration in a 
  number of areas both in the short and longer term.  In particular, the 
  key elements of this alliance include:
  
     - 	Computer Associates selection of Digital as the charter and 
        founding member of the new "Preferred Service Provider" program, 
        created just for Digital.
     - 	Computer Associates designation of Digital as a Tier 1 partner 
        for development of its products, including commitment to support 
        Digital's 64-bit computing environments
     - 	An agreement for Computer Associates to resell Digital software 
        products.
     - 	An agreement to collaborate on future product development.
     - 	An agreement to do joint marketing worldwide. 
  
  The agreement between Digital and Computer Associates to do future 
  product development and joint marketing will result in a more 
  comprehensive set of software solutions than either company alone can 
  provide.  Specifically, this will allow customers to select from a 
  broad choice of products from both companies today, with assurance of 
  continuity and extension of current products in the future. The joint 
  goal is to preserve current customer investments, while enhancing 
  their environments for the next century.
  
  The agreement for Digital to be the only member of Computer 
  Associates' Preferred Service Provider program means that:
  
     - Digital will offer a comprehensive set of services in support of 
       selected Computer Associates products.
     - Computer Associates and Digital will sell Digital services for 
       Computer Associates' products, promoting Digital as a preferred 
       provider of services to Computer Associates' customers.  
  
  Alliance services range from telephone support for shrink-wrapped 
  software to complete life-cycle management solutions for enterprise 
  client/server computing environments.  Selected Computer Associates 
  partners may also promote and sell Digital services that support 
  Computer Associates products.
  
  Computer Associates' product suites encompassed by the planned 
  maintenance services, for example, include:
  
    - System management:  CA-Unicenter
    - Information management:  CA-Ingres
    - Business management:  CA-Manman and CA-Masterpiece
    - Any new products in the future that Computer Associates plans to 
      have third-party service 
  
  Under the agreement, Digital will have the ability to provide 
  professional services across Computer Associates' entire product suite.  
  
  Customers will be able to use a single point of contact, worldwide, to 
  purchase Digital services for Computer Associates' products; that 
  single point may be Digital or Computer Associates.  Digital will 
  deliver support and management services that complement selected 
  Computer Associates products, with an emphasis on product and service 
  combinations that take advantage of Digital's strengths in networked 
  enterprise computing and client/server management services.  Computer 
  Associates will resell these Digital services.  Selected Computer 
  Associates' partners may also resell Digital services and Computer 
  Associate's products.  Other Computer Associates' partners who sell 
  their own services in support of Computer Associates' products will 
  continue to do so, giving customers a wide range of choices.
  
  Digital offers a breadth and depth of readily available expertise and 
  service delivery capability, worldwide, that complements Computer 
  Associates' impressive array of software product offerings.  Computer 
  Associates and Digital will also jointly develop services in support of 
  Computer Associates' products, creating new capabilities and expanding 
  the coverage of existing offerings to the latest technology areas.
  
  Access to an impressive range of software and services from two 
  leadership companies addresses key customer needs today as well 
  requirements of tomorrow, with integration of new technologies into 
  customer environments, including Windows NT, 64-bit UNIX and Open VMS, 
  and the Internet.  For customers, the benefits of this alliance are 
  enormous supporting their effective implementation of networked 
  enterprise computing environments.
  
                                 					 

  									
  Contact information is listed in the Questions & Answers document on 
  the Integrated Repository.  
  
  For quick access to all of the Alliance documents (the presentation, 
  the positioning paper, and the compendium of Q & As), type: VTX IR at 
  the prompt.  Search by these document numbers:
   
  
  o  # OL00DB	   Digital & Computer Associates -- A Strategic Alliance 
     	 	   (presentation)      
  o  # ST01CC 	   Digital & Computer Associates -- Q&A's
  o  # ST01CD	   Digital & Computer Associates -- Positioning Paper

Exactly where was this announced? And, what is NSM?

re     So Polycenter becomes CA-Unicenter - a la Oracle/Rdb - is that correct?


CA-Unicenter has been in existance for some time.  A friend of mine
is one of the main developers and works in Winnersh, Reading, UK.

If you find the CA web page (www.cai.com?) there is a .MPG (.MOV?)
file you can download that demos CA-Unicenter. Mind you the file is 4Mgb

SAimon

    
                CA SENDS ELECTRONIC KISSES TO LOVERS WOOED IN
                ANNUAL INTERNET EXPRESSIONS OF LOVE CONTEST
    
       Grand Prize Winner Receives Dozen Red Roses and Hersheys Kisses
              For Dating Nations Most Romantic Web-Site Browser
    
    
    ISLANDIA, N.Y., February 14, 1996-- Computer Associates today delivered
    Hersheys Kisses to a dozen winners of its Internet Expressions of Love
    contest, after their lovers e-mailed the most romantic expressions to 
    CAs home page on the World Wide Web. 
    
    As a bonus, the grand prize winner in Richmond Hill, Queens this
    morning received a dozen roses for her lovers top entry out of 100
    submissions from around the nation. 
    
    Entrants, e-mailing a special page on CAs home page (WWW.CAI.COM) were
    asked to complete the following sentence in 25 words or less: I first
    knew I was in love with you when... 
    
    Extracted from http://www.cai.com/press/96feb/love2.htm

One of the guys in a chorus I sing with told me about this deal last night
(he's one of the affected).  Oops, there goes another software product...

I'll ask for a third time, what is NSM?

						Brian

NSM: Network and Systems Management

 

    If you do software and you aren't in NT/UNIX/VMS OS development, you
    have no future at Digital.
    
    No, I didn't think that up, it was told to me by a co-worker a few
    years ago and I didn't want to believe him.  However, reality has a way
    of getting your attention.
    
    Bob

    Networked Systems Management based in TAY2 and ZKO.

    My customer currently has investment in the following products from
    Digital:
    
    Polycenter NSR, LSM, ADVSF, System Watchdog, Fullsail.
    
    Can anyone tell me how this strategic alliance will affect them.  One
    customer made the decision to no go with CA and went with Digital for
    these products based on cost and functionality. What does this do to
    their original decision?
    
    Any comments appreciated.
    

    POLYCENTER Capacity Planner, and SI Software Business product is NOT
    being sold to CA.  
    
    Steve Fuller
    Marketing and Services Mgr, Capacity Planning Engineering

    Many of my customers use POLYCENTER SLS and Archive/Backup.  Are these
    products affected by this alliance?

On the OpenVMS VAX and Alpha CD's I found the following kits.
I suppose we have the most popular POLYCENTER kits that way.

Can somebody put a Y or N next to each product?

Thanks a lot.

Johan

"POLYCENTER CONSOLE Manager"

"POLYCENTER System Watchdog (Agent)"
"POLYCENTER System Watchdog (Consolidator)"
"POLYCENTER System Watchdog Agent for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER System Watchdog Consolidator for OpenVMS"

"POLYCENTER Performance Data Collector for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Performance Advisor for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Capacity Planner"
"POLYCENTER Accounting Chargeback for OpenVMS"

"POLYCENTER Terminal Server Access Module for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Extended Lan Manager for OpenVMS VAX"
"POLYCENTER Framework Developer's Toolkit"
"POLYCENTER Framework Historian Option"
"POLYCENTER Framework Notification Option"
"POLYCENTER Framework"
"POLYCENTER Network Manager 200"
"POLYCENTER Network Manager 400"
"POLYCENTER Network Statistics Option"
"POLYCENTER Network Topology Option"
"POLYCENTER SNA Manager"

"POLYCENTER Scheduler Agent"
"POLYCENTER Scheduler OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Scheduler"
"POLYCENTER Scheduler/Japanese for OpenVMS VAX"

"POLYCENTER Security Compliance Manager for OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha"
"POLYCENTER Security Intrusion Detector for OpenVMS AXP and OpenVMS VAX"
"POLYCENTER Security Intrusion Detector for OpenVMS VAX and Alpha"
"POLYCENTER Security Reporting Facility for OpenVMS"

"POLYCENTER Software Distribution"

"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS (Agent)"
"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS (Consolidator)"
"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS (GUI)"
"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS VAX & ULTRIX (Agent)"
"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS VAX & ULTRIX (Consolidator)"
"POLYCENTER System Census for OpenVMS VAX & ULTRIX (GUI)"

"POLYCENTER Fault Diagnostic Package"

"POLYCENTER File Optimizer for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER HSM for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Save Set Manager for OpenVMS"
"POLYCENTER Striping for OpenVMS VAX"
"POLYCENTER Sequential Media Filesystem for OpenVMS"

    *s/POLYCENTER/Alta Vista/w
    *ex
    

From what we heard, out of the 50 or so PolyCenter products, only about a 
dozen went to CA, the other ~40 remained within Digital... however, the 
formal list is still being negotiated and won't be available for a week or 
so. 

One of the key points here is that not all POLYCENTER products reside within
NSM.

    Some field training is planned for early next week.
    Much more info should be available then.
    Including a detailed answer to which are going, and which are not.
    
    Watch the POLYCENTER notes conference at NOTED::POLYCENTER for more
    info.
    
    Mark (one of those being sent away)

.11>                       -< POLYCENTER CP not being sold >-

Glad to see CP does not go. 

How about POLYCENTER Performnce Solution Family of Products and 
Performance Expert?

If they would, we must have a lots of difficulties to do business with 
customers. We could use those products internally under the comprehensive 
license agreements but to analyze or consult with customer problems, we
could not go much further without installing these products, at least 
data collectors, at customer sites. Is Digital trying to go out of this
supporting business?  Supporting business is not a core competence of 
Digital?  Customers buy Digital products with only basic hardware and 
software support and no additional system support? Fortune 500 companies
allow this level of support?

And in the days of PC, most system management products are included as 
basic software, are customers happy with the box only accompanied by OS
and compilers? 

We might have to do business with OS utilities(MONITOR, SHOW CLUSTER 
etc.), fine freewares, and obsolete products(SPMS, VPA...) :-). Another 
hacking days would be arrived!

- Kazunori

P.S. Octopus eat their legs when they are in agony.  Now Digital gets 
revenue by selling its own organizations. Only the mouth would be remained.

 I see the Digital rumour mill is at it again.  Why not wait until the dust
 settles before getting irate.  

 You never know, when all the facts are revealed this might turn out to be
 a very sane, sensible move.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No matter what happens, there's always someone who knew it would" -Lonny Starr
John McNulty                                      UK CSC, Unix Support Group
Email: [email protected]                             Digital Equipment Corporation

[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

The deal is not finalized until it passes the gov't anti-trust microscope,
guessed at about 4 weeks.  Some negotiations are still in progress - actual
plans for individual products are not finalized. 

Oh, and this information is still low key - see following statement:

"
The sale of the Systems Management part of NSM to CA has not been publicly
announced.  The announcement event is still being planned and the date has not
been finalized.  During this interim period the sale should be treated for
Digital internal use only and not discussed wtih customers, the press or
analysts.
"

So chill w/ customer conversations - the products will still be there - unless
we misrepresent the situation so badly we loose the customers.

...Ron...

All Storage Management Software products listed below ARE NOT GOING TO CA:

	OpenVMS:  Storage Library System (SLS), POLYCENTER Archive/Backup,
		  POLYCENTER Sequential Media Filesystem, POLYCENTER Save Set
		  Manager, POLYCENTER File Optimizer, StorageWorks RAID
		  Software, Media Robot Utility, POLYCENTER Hierarchical Storage
		  Management, POLYCENTER Striping for OpenVMS VAX and
		  StorageWorks Desktop Backup/Archiver.

	UNIX:	  POLYCENTER Hierarchical Storage Manager (DUNIX), and
		  POLYCENTER Networker Save and Restore (DUNIX).

Please direct questions about these products to us.

			OpenVMS:	Bryan Cox	COOKIE::COX
					Judy Cross	COOKIE::CROSS
					Tom Shea	COOKIE::SHEA

			UNIX:		Salley Anderson	DECWET::SALLEY
					Craig Huber	MUCK::HUBER

					SMS Product Managers

    IMHO this is a classic case of confusion emerging because "someone"
    decided to re-name what felt like half our product set to
    POLYCENTER "something-or-other".   The one correct decision made
    was to use the octopus as the "poster child" for the POLYCENTER
    Solutions Guide; between the tentacles of the name changes and the
    black ink that muddied the waters, is it any wonder sales reps thought
    many products had been retired and thus many products didn't get sold?
    
    If you had been selling a product called Remote System Manager,
    Client/Server for years, would you be able to determine almost over-night
    that this product was now being called POLYCENTER Software Distri-
    bution Client/Server?
    
    As someone who has done pre-sales support for 7 years via an 800#,
    if I had a dollar for every rep/re-seller who called in thinking
    Remote System Manager had been retired *I* could have retired by
    now ;-)
    
    Right or wrong, I've come to the same conclusions as Mr. Ainsley
    as to whether or not we are getting out of the SW business.  For
    whatever SW products we might continue to sell (other than operating
    systems), for goodness sake, STOP changing the names of the products!!
    
    Perhaps we should adopt the KISS philosophy before deciding to *re*name
    SW products.
    

    
    >>    as to whether or not we are getting out of the SW business.  For
    >>    whatever SW products we might continue to sell (other than
    >>    operating systems), for goodness sake, STOP changing the names of the
    >>    products!!
        
    Really now! :-) 
    
    Changing product names is an activity akin to reorganizing. And lord
    knowns the number of customers that have told me how much better DEC
    was as a result of its reorganizing! 
    
    jc 
    DEC Motto # 451 If you have nothing to do, reorganize else rename.
    
    

Re .0:

>Current employees of Digital will not be allowed to look for new jobs 
>within Digital.  They must go to CA. 

  Please explain. How are they going to prevent these people from looking for
other jobs within the company?
  Where will these people be located after the businesses are sold to CAI?
CAI is headquartered in Islandia, NY; is that where they will go?

P.S.: According to CAI's Web page, CAI is an acceptable acronym for the com-
pany. I am using it to avoid confusion with the state of CA.

    I assume it will be like the purchase of Learning Services, which
    became Global Knowledge Network:
    
    Part of the attractiveness of the deal is the talent pool of that
    division; as such, Digital agreed to not hire anyone from Learning
    Services for a year after the purchase (unless that person was let go
    BY the purchaser).
    
    tom stern, instructor
    Global Knowledge Network 

		Computer Associates, Digital expand on 
                'Alliance for Enterprise Management' 
   
         Today Computer Associates International, Inc. and Digital 
   announced specific elements of the strategic alliance they entered into 
   earlier this month (LIVE WIRE, Worldwide News, April 18).  The alliance 
   provides a broad range of products and services to support the delivery 
   of comprehensive enterprise management solutions to customers 
   worldwide.  
         The Digital-CA Alliance for Enterprise Management combines CA's 
   expertise in enterprise management with Digital's leadership in 
   networked computing and multivendor services.  It will enable 
   organizations to rapidly integrate new technologies -- including 
   Windows NT, UNIX, OpenVMS and the Internet -- into networked enterprise 
   computing environments.
         As part of the agreement, Digital and CA have agreed to 
   standardize on a unified enterprise management environment based on 
   CA-Unicenter.  This environment will evolve from existing POLYCENTER, 
   NetView, and CA-Unicenter products and will also serve as a platform 
   for integration of other software vendors' systems management 
   capabilities.
         Key elements of the agreement include:
   
         o  Digital will become a worldwide professional service 
            provider for CA products as the charter member of CA's 
            newly established "Preferred Service Provider" 
            program.  Digital will deliver planning, design, 
            implementation, support and management services that 
            complement CA products.
   
         o  CA and Digital will collaborate on future product 
            development for enterprise management, including the 
            tighter integration of CA-Unicenter and POLYCENTER 
            capabilities.  Digital customers will be able to 
            manage all Digital platforms -- including OpenVMS, 
            Digital UNIX and Windows NT -- through a single 
            management environment.
   
         o  CA will acquire selected Digital POLYCENTER products.  
            POLYCENTER software professionals will join CA, 
            ensuring that customers will continue to receive the 
            same high quality products, service and support.
   
         o  CA and Digital also will collaborate on new products 
            and services for the Internet and Intranets.
   
         o  CA will designate Digital as a Tier 1 partner 
            supporting Digital's 64-bit Alpha computing 
            environment.  This includes development of the full 
            range of CA products, such as CA-Unicenter and 
            CA-OpenIngres.  In addition, CA will become an OpenVMS 
            and Windows NT Affinity program partner.
   
         o  CA and Digital will collaborate in joint marketing and 
            sales worldwide.  Digital will be able to resell 
            selected CA products including CA-Unicenter, 
            CA-OpenIngres, CA-MANMAN/X and CA-Masterpiece.  Both 
            companies and their partners will sell Digital 
            services worldwide.
   
         "Today's agreement with a software leader like Computer 
   Associates provides Digital with a great opportunity to broaden our 
   services business and to provide an additional sales channel for 
   software products and services, " said Digital Chairman Robert B. 
   Palmer.  "By standardizing on a unified enterprise management 
   environment, our clients can take advantage of CA-Unicenter's 
   integrated management platform in deploying their multivendor 
   distributed solutions." 
         "We are pleased to extend our partnership to include Digital's 
   highly regarded, multivendor service organization," said CA Chairman 
   and CEO Charles B. Wang.  "Digital and CA clients are the big winners 
   in this relationship.  They get the best of what both companies can 
   offer -- world-class enterprise software and services, all under one 
   roof.  You could call it one-stop shopping for enterprise management."
         Computer Associates International, Inc. of Islandia, N.Y., is the 
   world leader in mission-critical business software.  The company 
   develops, licenses and supports more than 500 integrated products that 
   include systems and database management, application development, 
   manufacturing and financial applications.  CA has 9,000 people in 130 
   offices in 36 countries and had revenue of $3.2 billion in calendar 
   year 1995.  CA can be reached by visiting http://www.cai.com on the 
   World Wide Web or mailing [email protected].

    re. reply 26
    
    If you need detailed information re. Digital UNIX products, please
    contact the appropriate product management person in the UNIX group
    but this deal doesn't apply to the UNIX products such as AdvFS, LSM, 
    and the Performance Manager (a.k.a. Performance Solution for UNIX)
    that we produce directly in the UNIX group.. 
    

Additional pointers:

	VTX IR - Documents ST01CD, 0L00DB, ST01CC
	   
	Web - http://www.cai.com/press/96apr/dec_rel.htm


-- Erik Mintz
   POLYCENTER Manager on NetView development, remaining with Digital






POLYCENTER is a trademark of Digital Equipment Corporation
NetView is a registered trademark of IBM Corporation

    re .19
    
    The POLYCENTER Performance Solution on OpenVMS, the POLYCENTER
    Performance Advisor on Digital UNIX, and the POLYCENTER Performance
    Expert on NT family of products, with the exception of POLYCENTER
    Capacity Planner and the POLYCENTER Performance Solution on Digital
    UNIX are being transfered to CAI.
    
    Why the exceptions?
    
    POLYCENTER Capacity Planner is part of our SI business
    
    POLYCENTER Performance Solution for Digital UNIX is a performance
    monitor that really supports our system business of Digital UNIX. It's
    engineered as part of the Digital UNIX group (See John Penney's note).
    It used to be part of FullSail.
    
    The naming on these products is confusing (I mess this up regularly).
    In particular, just saying POLYCENTER Performance Solution is ambiguous
    without naming the platform it runs on. Performance Solution on OpenVMS
    is about the same as Performance Advisor on Digital UNIX.
    
    Digital can still sell the POLYCENTER products being transferred to
    CAI. So your consulting support business shouldn't be affected.
    
    I disagree with the claim that "And in the days of PC, most system
    management products are included as  basic software". Yes there are
    free system management tools in any OS - lots of them. But there
    remains a good market for "better" system management tools that get
    sold like any other software. CAI has built a multi-billion dollar
    business out of system management software.
    
    What you'll have as a result of this alliance is all the POLYCENTER
    products you had before, plus the CAI Unicenter family of products.
    
    Mark
    
    PS, Thanks for the info on Octopi! 

Re .24

>>Current employees of Digital will not be allowed to look for new jobs 
>>within Digital.  They must go to CA. 
>
>  Please explain. How are they going to prevent these people from looking for
>other jobs within the company?
>  Where will these people be located after the businesses are sold to CAI?
>CAI is headquartered in Islandia, NY; is that where they will go?

How? by prohibiting transfers out of the affected cost centers.

Where? Nearby in New England. CAI headquarters is in Long Island, but they
do engineering almost anywhere. They leave the people they buy located
where they were. We're in Littleton and Nashua mostly. CAI already has
offices in Marlboro and Andover.

Mark

  I'm relieved to hear that the employees who involuntarily transfer to CAI
won't have to relocate or incur much longer commutes. However...

> by prohibiting transfers out of the affected cost centers.

  This scares me. Is there a precedent for people in Digital business that
have been outsourced being prohibited from transferring to other Digital
cost centers? This is the first I have heard of this happening. The only
precedent I can think of is that people have been declared "critical em-
ployees" and prohibited from transferring for this reason.

    Re: .32
    
    That's a fairly common policy among businesses in general.
    No one wants to buy a division and wind up without the
    employees necessary to run it, assuming the purchaser does
    plan to run it as opposed to cannibalizing it.
    

    Re: 32

    When some of SES' technical writers were outsourced to SEI, they were
    prevented from transferring out.  That was somewhat different, however,
    because neither the entire business or the cost centers were
    transferred out of the company, just targeted individuals.

    George

    Re .32:
    
    While we can't transfer to other groups in DEC before the sale, we can
    always leave CA after we're sold off and come back somewhere else in
    DEC as an external hire of a "former employee".
    
    Mark

    When our database products were sold to Oracle, a lot of people were
    glad to be going to Oracle.  Is this true of the folks going to CA?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

When CA acquired Ingres a few years back, the line on Usenet was that around
90% of the employees quit, rather than work for CA.  Back then CA wasn't
painted as a very desirable employer.

    re: .37
    
    It didn't help that Sybase was flying a plane over the plant towing a
    banner saying they were hiring and their phone number.  Sybase is
    essentially next door to Ingres.
    
    It also didn't help that CA rescinded a number of benefits and policies
    that many at Ingres enjoyed (like domestic partners health care,
    outside email, ...).
    
    Word in the database community is that at one point CA-Ingres didn't
    have enough knowledge left in the company to build the product from
    sources.

Many years ago I worked for a startup that was courting CA.  At that time,
CA had the reputation of buying small software companies for the products
rather than the people.  They'd keep a skeleton support staff, but dump
the development staff.

    Is CA the firm that bought ASK?  ASK people were fleeing out the
    door like the hounds of hell were after them.
    

    Well, several of us are pretty upbeat about the move. Can you imagine
    working for a company that not only markets software but also has a
    sales force that specializes in selling software and management software
    is a core competency? No, neither can I but I look forward to seeing it:-)
    
    Also, at least in this case, they seem to be working hard to make it
    as attractive as possible for us to come over and not jump ship.
    I don't even loose a single vacation day (though I accumulate a couple
    less days per year)! I also get to bring my office system with me.
    
    I even had a first hand experiance where a decision about a trip that
    happens after the transfer was made in about 15 seconds!! Oh, the
    decision was to go and it involved about 10 people and a week's
    lodging. Nice to see streamlined decision making :-)
    
    s/rob

    What about the trip back?
    

    Actually, what I was referring to was that several of us will be
    working in the Digital booth at Windows World/Comdex, though as CA
    employees.
    
    s/rob

    Re .36:
    
    I think it's a mixed bag. Many of us, like Rob, see an opportunity.
    Many of us have been around a long time, and worry about change.
    Benifits aren't as good at CA as here (at least in my case). The rumors
    about CA are running hot and heavy. I expect the Dilbert Principle to
    hold there, just as it does here. I plan to go and see what it is
    really like.
    
    Overall, I'd expected things to be far worse than they have turned out.
    CA has done quite a lot to keep everyone on board. There's lots of 
    interesting work for us to do. They're even looking for office space in
    New Hampshire.
    
    Mark

What are the plans for NetView? 

Phil.

POLYCENTER Manager on NetView will be remaining with Digital.

And...?

    re. .44:
    
    Yes, CA is "looking" for a site in Southern NH in the greater Nashua
    area.   However, it is unclear what the criteria is for determining
    which employees will be based out of the NH office vs the Marlboro
    office.   When I specifically requested to be among those based out of
    New Hampshire, the response was, (paraphrased) peoples work sites will
    depend primarily on where there base group is located and how well CA
    percieves the ability of the individual to work geographically
    seperated from their base group.   Obviously it's important to maintain
    a certain degree of group continuity.   On the other hand, in this age
    of networking and electronic communications, I don't see that there is
    any significant difference.   Telecommuting works.   Then again, not
    all companies are as well versed in the art as Digital...

>And...?
>

Assuming that .-1 was a follow on to .-2, the plans have not changed.
The NetView products on both platforms stay with Digital, as do the
engineers working on it.

The usual resources are available (NOTED::NETVIEW,
http://qkstep.tay.dec.com/NetView), or contact product management
off line for futures.

-- Erik

    What are the the employee's alternatives if they do not want to
    accept a position at the new company? Are they forced to resign or
    are they TSFO'd. Being an employee does not permit the sale of that
    person does it? How would that differ from slavery?

RE: -.1 That same question was raised by the Writers, when SES was
"transferring" their employment to other companies. The question went
largely unanswered. One person pushed the question and finally received
(from a Human Resources person) the answer that he would be terminated
(*not* TFSO) for insubordination.

There really wasn't anyone who *wanted* to address (much less answer) the
question. The question was the hot potato of the year.

Art

    Re: options if transferred

    Blue Cross/Blue Shield transferred 300+ MIS folk to EDS when BC/BS
    outsourced that function.  The folks were given the same ultimatum -- 
    move or be fired.  A class action suit ensued and the Federal court
    ruled that BC/BS could not force an employee to move to another company
    without compensation (including some level of restitution of pension
    benefits).  Of course, this will move up a level in the Federal appeals
    process and take years to adjudicate.

    I don't know enough about the details of the case too determine if it
    is at all relevant to the SES or NSM employees who were sold off.  I'm
    sure there are labor lawyers out there who would welcome the chance to 
    answer the question, though.  :-)

    George

    Well, this ain't official, but as one of the transferees I have more
    than a passing interest in the topic.  The exact terms of the contract
    are company confidential between Digital and CA, so what I am about to
    reflects only my understanding of the arrangement.
    
    2 things are certain:
    
    1. Digital sold the software and the development capability (i.e., us)
    to Computer Associates.  We're part of the deal and it would appear to
    be a violation of the contract if Digital actively recruited from among
    the folks to be transferred.
    
    2. CA is required to offer every one of the identified people a job for
    at least a year.
    
    Note the parties to the contract are the two corporations.  Individual
    employees don't have to accept the job offered by CA, nor are they
    necessarily enjoined from seeking another job with Digital or anyone
    else.
    
    Again, this is just MHO, but I believe it to be fairly accurate.  The
    earlier draconian statements were presumably based on an overly
    strict interpretation of the contract.

    BTW, lots of us are excited about this move.  A recent suggestion for
    the meaning of "NSM" is:
    
    	Now Software Matters
    
    17 days to go....

>    2. CA is required to offer every one of the identified people a job for
>    at least a year.

Thanks for this info; I wasn't sure what the CA hiring requirement was
    
>    Note the parties to the contract are the two corporations.  Individual
>    employees don't have to accept the job offered by CA, nor are they
>    necessarily enjoined from seeking another job with Digital or anyone
>    else.

My understanding is that we (new CA employees) are not allowed to seek 
employment within Digital. I also understood this to be part of the 
terms of the sale to CA. How else would CA protect themselves from losing
key personnel to the products?

- Mike

    
    
    We in Digital Learning Services were in the same boat in January when
    we were sold to Welch Carson and set up as Global Knowledge Network.
    Either go with GKN or find a job (and not at Digital).  Most people
    went with the new company and were glad to have a job.  I only wish I
    could be as "generous" in my description of benefits as Digital was. 
    We were told the benefits would be comprable.  I'm now paying twice as
    much for a doctor's vist and three time more for medication.  Yet, we
    are being paid the same as we were at Digital, not more to compensate
    for the extra expenses.
    
    Oh well, we keep saying, "We still have a job, we still have a job...."

***My understanding is that we (new CA employees) are not allowed to seek 
***employment within Digital. I also understood this to be part of the 
***terms of the sale to CA. How else would CA protect themselves from losing
***key personnel to the products?
    
    Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I would
    point out that employees are allowed to seek jobs outside of Digital,
    say with Foobar Computers, Inc.  Foobar is under no obligation to
    either CA or Digital, and so can go ahead and hire anyone it wants. 
    Thus CA can't protect themselves from losing key personnel.
    
    Digital will obviously want to uphold its half of the deal, so internal
    transfers are being discouraged.  But I don't believe it's totally im-
    possible.

    Employee's sign a employment contract affording certain rights to
    the company regrading intellectual property. This contract does not
    afford the company the body and mind of the individual (only the
    military is afforded that priviledge). 
    
    If an organization is sold out and an individual chooses not to 
    persue the opportunity how is it that the individual is resigning from
    the corporation? If the company does not reassign the employee then
    the company is laying the employee off and the employee is entitled 
    to compensation afforded to other laided off employees. 
    
    Digital seems to be ignoring this in an attempt to reduce the cost of
    down sizing. This is wrong.
     

    re .58 - this is your personal opinion and would seem to be a
    reasonable approach but it does not match with concepts defined in
    labour legislation.
    
    I don't know the US labour law, but in Europe the employees can be
    transferred with no personal opt out conditions if the deal is done
    within what the law defines as "a transfer of undertaking".  If
    transfer of undertaking is proven, then the new company effectively
    absorbs all of the legal rights with respect to all of the employees 
    of the affected business of the old company.  Thus no optional employee
    redundancy packages and no rights to re-assignation within the old
    company.  The flip side is that usually things like benefits and
    seniority are maintained.
    
    YMMV in the USA.
    /Chris.

    The fact is that, right or wrong, Digital has been doing this for a
    couple of years. It's silly to deny or doubt it.

another fact is that (at least in the US) you can be "let go" for any
reason what-so-ever as long as it is not "race,gender,age or religion"
related. And those protections are more for classes of people rather
than specific individuals. Most often a corporation has to have shown
a pattern of abuse to get fined. liesl

    RE: .58...
    
    Let's see "compensation afforded to other laided (sic) off epmloyees." 
    That would be the few weeks' pay in lieu of notice and outplacement
    help, as I recall.  Wow, I sure would rather have that than a job for
    at least the next year.
    
    I have no complaints about how Digital and CA are handling this
    transfer, though I think communications could be a lot better, as this
    discussion clearly illustrates. Yeah, you're right, this is cheaper
    than laying us off, but I don't begrudge Digital that.  
    
    The only reason for preferring the TFSO route would be if you had very
    high probability of getting a new job within the period covered by the
    lump sum and were looking forward to a windfall.  I don't think Digital
    owes you that.

>    I have no complaints about how Digital and CA are handling this
>    transfer, though I think communications could be a lot better, as this
>    discussion clearly illustrates.

Just for the record, I'm not complaining (nor am I implying that anyone 
said I was. I just want to be clear from my standpoint). 

Regarding the communication process, I haven't had any complaints about that
either. Whenever I've had a question, the folks in the know have always responded
within 1 day. No problem here.

Regarding Digital's decision to sell off the business, hey that's a corporation
perogative (sic?). I have always supported Digital's goals to regain it's 
profitable status. I've lost several friends to TFSO as a result, but I still 
support the corporate goals.

For me, the issue takes on a much different perspective; for the better part of
my near 15 years with Digital, I have worked to improve computing accessibility
for people with disabilities. This sale puts me in a very awkard position
because I feel quite sure that CA will not support this work. I'm not planning
to throw that work away. But I'm also not in a position to go without a weekly
paycheck as well...

    Good article in the June 1996 issue of Upside on Charles Wang and CA.
    Several points:
    
    1. CA was ranked by Computerworld as the 2nd best company to work for
    in 1995 (Home Depot was 1st)
    
    2. CA growth has been almost entirely through acquisition
    
    3. May 1995 acquistition of Legent was 2nd largest in software industry
       (IBM/Lotus is 1st) - from then until now, one estimate is that
       80-90% of 2000+ Legent employees have left or been let go
    
    4. Top-driven, customer-oriented company - both Charles Wang (founder)
       and Sanjay Kumar (President and COO) both come from technical
       software backgrounds
    
     If you are involved in .0 - I'd read this article

    re .64
    
    Don't point #1 and point #3 conflict? - or have these people left CA to
    work for Home Depot? 8^)
    
    r
    

    I dont think points 1 + 3 conflict...what the article said was that
    when aquiring companies, CA will downsize redundant functions. For
    example, if CA had a legal dept. of 20 people, and if Legent had a legal 
    dept. of 10 people, but only 2 more additional people were needed in CA
    legal to incorporate the Legent acquisition, then there will soon be 8
    former Legent legal people looking for jobs. I dont believe this says
    anything about what kind of company CA is to work for... 

    RE .64
    
    Many of us are aware of CA's history, and were initially quite
    skeptical about it.
    
    A significant difference between this acquisition and Legent is that CA
    is not acquiring the whole company.  Therefore the redundant legal,
    accounting, HR, etc. departments aren't (as much of) an issue.
    
    Of course, there is still some risk, but no worse than we would have
    faced had we stayed here.  It's been obvious for some time that NSM
    didn't fit in with Digital's strategies.  At least with CA we know that
    our product line is a major part of their planning for many years to
    come.
    
    So I guess my glass is half full.
    
    Larry

> RE: -.1 That same question was raised by the Writers, when SES was
>"transferring" their employment to other companies. The question went
>largely unanswered. One person pushed the question and finally received
>(from a Human Resources person) the answer that he would be terminated
>(*not* TFSO) for insubordination.

  I interpret this to mean that if someone stopped reporting to work after
his job moved to the new employer, he/she would be fired. I assume that some-
one can resign at any time before or after the transfer. (If not, then it
WOULD be 'slavery'.)

>    than a passing interest in the topic.  The exact terms of the contract
>    are company confidential between Digital and CA, so what I am about to

  Why are the terms of this contract secret? It seems to me that a lot of the
discussion that is occurring on this topic is occurring because people don't
really know what the deal is, and therefore must rely on speculation to get
an inkling of where they stand.

>    to Computer Associates.  We're part of the deal and it would appear to
>    be a violation of the contract if Digital actively recruited from among
>    the folks to be transferred.

  This makes sense, but most transfers are not done by "active recruiting"
but rather by people seeking another position and finding one.
  The case is almost moot because there wasn't enough time between when this
sale was announced internally and the phaseover date for someone to go from
initiating an internal job search to getting an offer. It would almost be
like how some DECcies succeeded in finding another internal job after being
notified they would be TFSO'd. 

    If you read "Upside" magazine, there is an interesting set of articles
    in the June 1996 issue: "Bob Palmer on DEC's Makeover" immediately
    followed by the "Software Predators" column: "Will Computer Associates'
    Manners Improve" 
    
    The trailer reads: "This month we begin the first of a
    three-part series focusing on "software predators." This installment
    looks at Computer Associates and at CEO Charles Wang's efforts to clean
    up the company's act."
    
    - Mike
    
    

    It's sad here at TAY. They are moving out the people going to Computer
    Associates--an end of an era.  Boy, I'll miss those guys!!!