Conference 7.286::digital

    I bought some software at CompUSA in Orlando FL last week.  It took
    about 20 minutes for the clerk to find Digital.  I did notice that as
    of last week, that store had the 520ic on the shelf.  The discount is
    nice, but the service is poor.

    COMPUSA does not give Employee discount on printers either. P.C.
    Compleat, is a joke also, I ordered a Starion 2 weeks ago, and was told
    if I received it by April, I should be so lucky, the waiting list is
    really that long. They have plenty of Starion's in Computer City in
    Nashua, and for $200 more, I picked it up the same night, this included
    of course included both a printer, and monitor. Besides, COMPUSA only
    gives a 3% discount to us.

    re;                   <<< Note 4330.2 by LEDZEP::DEVNO >>>

>    COMPUSA does not give Employee discount on printers either. P.C.
..
..
>    of course included both a printer, and monitor. Besides, COMPUSA only
>    gives a 3% discount to us.

This discount from CompUSA is based on their cost. with the discount, we
get to pay 12% above cost on nearly everything they sell.  It seems some
manufactures have a fixed lowest price on some items.  For those items
CompUSA can't give us the discount. The PC system and printer market
doesn't give the retailer a very large profit margin so the discount to us
if any is very small.  On some items however you will see a very large
discount. I purchaed a cable for $7 that was on the shelf for $24.99.

In general I would find out the details of any discount before I tried to
use it.
    
-Bruce

    If you found Starions at Computer City, that would be very interesting
    as they don't sell our PCs.  Circuit City, Office Max, yes.  Computer
    City, no.
    
    Margins on PCs and printers are too thin for CompUSA to give a
    significant discount.
    
    				Steve

    I visited CompUSA, Lechmere and Office Max while on a business trip. My 
    feeling is we are very weak in retail. I thought that we are only weak
    in HongKong where there are too many cheap PCs manufactured locally in
    HK or from Taiwan and from mainland China. In HongKong I think we are
    doing very good in corporate account but not retail in which we are
    just infant compared to HP, Compaq, IBM and Apple. I could only see 
    boxes from Compaq and HP everywhere. This explains their volume and
    success. 
    
    So far, I have not even seen a HiNote Ultra notebook in the computer
    stores while I have seen it once in HongKong. How can that be given
    that we have such a sleek and well-designed notebook. I believe we
    really have the best engineered notebook on earth but I could only
    watch a number of customers trying out a Compaq notebook, which is at
    least 2-3 pounds heavier than HiNote Ultra. Why? Has some of our top
    people done some field visit and see what is happening?
    
    What is our strategy to break into the top 5 rank? A few days ago I
    read an article from Wall Street Journal that Apple broke into Japanese
    market by good Kanji software platform and heavy marketing e.g. sponsor
    concert, poster on trains to teach Japanese that Apple is not apples.
    Perhaps, we need some breakthrough marketing to teach the consumer that
    Digital is not digital. 

    First, after seeing so many complains about CompUSA on this notes
    conference, I personally think that by using CompUSA and other
    Computer store to replace the EPP we eventually push out 5,000
    PC customers out of our door per year.  My daughter is going to 
    college next year and I am only looking for some simplest PC without
    fancy items for her.  Since I am located in NY so we are not lucky
    enough to have Digital PC outlet sales for employees as mentioned in 
    other conferences.   EPP is the only way for us to be a loyal employee+
    customer.  I don't know whose great idea to let outside vendors to
    handle EPP but certainly it has not been good enough for us.  I do
    appreciate the cost + 12% purchasing price benifit we can get from
    CompUSA.  However, is it ironic that our kids carry PCs from Compaq,
    Packard Dell, IBM in stead of Digital's PC with them to go to college?
    
    Second, one and half years ago, after receiving 10 PCs from Digital, 
    the technical director of one of my accounts was frustrated with 
    Digital's long and slow delivery date so he purchased hundreds of 
    PCs from Compaq. Nobody is born smart so everybody learns to be smart.
    People who is willing to learn from failure will be successful later
    on.   Have we learned yet?

    Sorry about not being the right store, regardless,
    It shouldn't make any difference which store, it just shows that just
    for $200 more you wouldn't have to wait 2-3 months for delivery from
    EPP.

    re: -.1
    
    "have we learned yet?"
    
    
    Apparently not.
    
    Jerry

    
     As someone/somepeople already pointed out numerous times...
    
     It is very easy to pick up the phone, *try* and place an order, and
     get real live comparisons on "shopping for a computer". Heck, just
     walk into one of our "retail" distributors, ask them which computer
     they recommend. "It's the one that is in stock". Arf! Arf!
    
     Perhaps someone in a position that can do something, has already done
    this. I'd like to think so. But when you miss your deliverable quotas
    as has been done earlier in the cycle, then you are broke from the get
    go. Manufacturing a PC for tomorrow is not going to get you a sale
    today. No matter what we would all like to think.
    
    -Mike Z.
    
    -Mike Z.

    I ordered a starion 915 in september over the phone and recieved it at
    my home 3 days later   	     ter my house 3 days lay
    
    
    

    Some computer store in Northern Virginia had a "Digital Truckload Sale" 
    several weeks ago.  It was our stuff - Starions, printers, etc.  Big 1 
    and 2 page adds in the Washington Post, etc.  I was pleasantly suprised, 
    but I don't remember if it was CompUSA or not.  
    
    I was in CompUSA last weekend and they had a fully loaded Starion ??? for 
    $2490.  So I asked - NONE in stock and lots of names on a waiting list.
    
    BTW, with the Digital discount, a $39.95 Windows NT book from MS Press 
    cost only $30 and change.  Hey, I like shopping there.  Stop beating up
    on the store and ship them MORE of our stuff...

>    Some computer store in Northern Virginia had a "Digital Truckload Sale"

Incredible Universe ? - at least that's the one that did it in Denver.  My only
thought as I saw the ad was wondering where they found a truckload of Starions
;-)

Re: Note 4330.12 by RMULAC.DVO.DEC.COM::S_WATTUM 

>Incredible Universe ? - at least that's the one that did it in Denver.  My only
>thought as I saw the ad was wondering where they found a truckload of Starions

Digital has gone though a bunch of Startion models.  First they had numbers
like 300, 500 and 700 then they seem to have an "i" added at the end, then
we went to the 910, 920, 930 and 940 which were followed by number like
911, 917, 922, 932, 932, 933 and even a 2001.  I probably missed a dozen
or so models.  So they could just be selling discontinued models.

-Bruce

At the CompUSA in Nashua tonight I got the Microsoft self-paced
Supporting Windows 95 kit for $97.10 (retail $149.95) and the Windows 95
Resource Kit for $32.36 ($49.95).

-stephen

	Hello,

	I have purchased countless "goodies" over the past 3 months
	with the EPP at CompUSA. Here is a little advice for those
	of you who are trying to do some last minute shopping and
	are trying it for the first time, "look around first if you
	can!"

	Here are a couple quick examples of my own experiences:

	* Purchased several big name PC games as gifts, 
          retail: $49.95   after discount: $39.95

	* Windows 95, (in August), 
	  retail $89.95    after discount: $89.95
          Was told by salesperson that Microsoft would not let them 
          sell it below $89.95, I thanked the salesperson for her 
          time and purchased it at Walmart for $79.95!!!!

	My list goes on but I will sum it up by saying that the
        discount is GREAT for many products, but if you are looking for
        big name, high profile products like laser printers, Windows 95,
        and other popular hardware items then get a price quote from 
        somewhere else FIRST!

        Perhaps this is a good note to ask why Digital has never given
	it's employees any REAL incentive to buy Digital hardware????

	I have never even heard of a company so old-fashioned in this
        respect. I have purchased 3 PCs in the past 6 years from other
        vendors and have always been far happier with my experiences
	than the people I read about in the notes files that are buying
        Digital iron. In addition, I have always been able to purchase
        more or equivalent hardware for the same or less money and 
        receive the full service of regular paying customers. I have
        listened to so many of my fellow employees buy Digital hardware
        at a paltry discount and then complain because they were given
        secondary service as employees. And then I watch them glow with
        pride as they tell stories of "outsmarting" Digital by calling
        the regular numbers for service and "pretending" to be a
        customer. Good grief! Who needs that! 

	The funny part is that none of my PCs from three different
	vendors have EVER needed a single bit of service! And they
        all came custom configured and perfect the first time!

	I looked at the Starions and was favorably impressed but they
	come with fixed configurations. Can't the company at least
	give us a tiny $$ incentive to buy one over the competition???

	-Dave-

    Digital offers a very good deal to buy a Starion through EPP - and I 
    DON'T mean at CompUSA.  The price is competitive with other retail
    models you'll find.
    
    			Steve

>>     <<< Note 4330.16 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
>>
>>    Digital offers a very good deal to buy a Starion through EPP - and I 
>>    DON'T mean at CompUSA.  The price is competitive with other retail
>>    models you'll find.
    
Employee discounts are typically not just "competitive", they should
be substantial enough to be considered a "benefit".  They shouldn't just
level the playing field,  they should make it lop-sided.  

Garry

    >Employee discounts are typically not just "competitive", they should
    >be substantial enough to be considered a "benefit".  They shouldn't just
    >level the playing field,  they should make it lop-sided.
     
    Why should they make it lop-sided?  While I agree it would be nice,
    I'm not sure what Digital's return on investement would be. 
    
    Good advertising (employee shows off stuff to friends and neighbors)?
    Not an argument.  If you can't be enticed to buy our stuff with
    a small discount, how would you convince people to buy our gear 
    with less of a discount.
    
    Self-training oportunities?  Greater productivity, since employees
    can work at home?  The people who would most benefit from 
    a system at home probably already have one...
    
    Morale?  Yes, it would help morale.  This is a very soft benefit to
    Digital, though, and not the type of bottom-line evident benefit
    that usually appeals to management.  Has anyone ever quit Digital 
    because our EPP program isn't very attactive?  I doubt it.  Can 
    you prove the resulting improvement in morale would increase 
    productivity?
    
    I don't know what other computer vendors offer as an employee 
    discount. 
    
    As far as other companies, I do know that the US auto manufacturers
    offer an employee discount that equates to little more than a 
    very good deal on a new car.  But you don't have to go through
    the tortuous haggling process.
    
    Jim

    
    It seems that the discount CompUSA gives Digital ( nay.. DEC )
    employees is being labelled as if it were a EPP benefit. I was
    under the impression that these are two separate discounts.
    
    Yes? 
    Thx,
    jc

    
     How dare anyone question what Digital's return on investment would
    be if tools were made available at lop-sided, substantial, or meger
    discounts. Excuse me. It all goes back to proper management/employee
    relationships. If I tell me boss I need a PeeCee they usually go out of
    their way to accomodate. The return on investment is *not* a factor.
    
     man oh man. Hot button pressed. Get me what i need to do my job and
    to keep doing my job.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Re: .19
    
    Yes, the CompUSA program is not the same as "EPP", which to me means
    what we have through PCs Compleat.
    
    			Steve

    re. .11
    
    Not sure I consider a "truck load" sales good news for us in retail.  I
    was amazed at the price our Inkjet printer was gettting at the "Wiz" in
    New York at Thanksgiving - $139.00.  That has got to be near mfg. cost.
    
    BTW, we seem to be about to lose retail distribution of the desktop 
    printers - try getting an ink jet replacement inker - at Staples 
    it was hidden next to - no lie - Diablo printer supplies circa 1979, 
    while the Canon, Hp, Epson dominate. This even though they sell 2
    inkjet models and one impact printer. 
    
    From my travels, the best retail distribution for DIGITAL I have seen
    was at Fry's in California with a couple of different PC models and
    pretty much the full line of DIGITAL lasers and inkjets - this was last
    July.
    
    Hopefully your mileage differs around the U.S. - but we seem to going
    down from a small retail presence, not up.  
    
    I have not seen a Hi Note in retail anywhere either - but the price 
    point may prevent it from being a retail product.
    
    
    
    

    
    re: .20  How dare anyone...
    
    whoa....
    
    If you need a PC to do your job, then Digital should provide it...
    I never said anything to the contrary.
    
    I was only questioning why Digital should feel compelled to subsidize 
    the purchase of equipment for personal use.  
    
    Don't get me wrong-- I'd love to see Digital offer a great discount
    to its employees.   I just doubt that it will happen.

    re -.1
    
    whoa back at you.........
    
    I know where you are coming from. And I see that personal use and work
    related jargoon coming. A hard line to draw a distinction on these
    days.... just what is personal use? Just what is work related? I can
    tell you running a game, might be considered personal, but the setup
    and knowledge gained, can be applied to real life work issues. A fuzzy
    line eh? So would Digital have me learn it and show it with their
    subsidized assets? Or would gateway like my business. I work for
    Digital, and work hard, I would like to see them offer a "deal I
    cannot" refuse on our products. It to me is a win win relationship.
    
    -Mike Z.
    
    
    -Mike Z.

	It's nice to know that I'm not the only person who finds
	the employee discount policy somewhat prehistoric!

	I always love to hear someone say,.."so what's the benefit
	to Digital if you have a PC?". Oh please!!!! I'm sure all
        auto workers advocate mass-transit as well?

	How can anyone who is in the computer business ask what the
	benefit of owning a computer is?  I am strongly beginning
	to believe that the reason we don't have a reasonable
	"benefit" in the form of good PC deals is that the people
	who run this Corporation haven't clicked a mouse in years!

	Would anyone care to explain the following situation to me?
	I asked my local management for a copy of MS Project so I
	could do my project management duties on my PC at home and
        free up more of my time for work that requires other people.

	Response: That is no problem, BUT you must make absolutely
                  sure that you only use it for directly work related
                  activities. 

	Reaction: Gee,...guess I better cancel that pyramid I was 
                  going to start in the spring. So is Digital going
                  to reimburse me for depreciation of using MY OWN PC
                  for DIGITALS work?

	Question: Why is it OK for me to buy a PC WITHOUT ANY incentive
                  and use it for work while Digital won't give me
                  a break without a spreadsheet showing ROI?

	How can you put a $$ amount on the value of having our 
	employees educated and participating in the markets in which
	we are attempting to conduct business? 

	This is a no-brainer that many of my friends in other companies
        laugh at!

	-Dave-	
    

re: "That is no problem, BUT you must make absolutely sure that you
only use it for directly work related activities. "

I surprised you heard that response. That person's head must have been
so far up their butt to muffle even sensible remakrs.

Pete

    Sounds to me like .25 works underneath one of those proliferating
    Profit Prevention Teams. Who's the VP in charge of the PPT's? :-(
    
    Harry
    

And yet ANOTHER note turns into an EPP rathole...

Maybe the comments not germain to CompUSA could be moved to one of the 
following notes where this topic has been flogged to death in the past.

   531  WR2FOR::BOUCHARD_KE   6-MAY-1988    12  Employee purchases...
   756  MISVAX::ROSS         15-MAR-1989    53  Is the Home Purchase program a *
   806  RELYON::PMAX          9-MAY-1989    57  Employee Purchase Program woes..
  1023  PRSIS4::WDAVIES       5-FEB-1990     7  Employee Purchase Program and E*
  2398                        2-MAR-1993     2  Employee PC purchase ??

tim m.

    
     Hey, re -.1
    
    Maybe if someone "fixed" EPP, or employee PeeCee issues, buying,
    selling, trading, using.... etc. etc..
    
    ....we would not have so many ratholes.
    
    Personally I like the discount at CompUSA. I'd even like to get an
    EPP through them.
    
    -Happy Holidays to all........
    
    -Mike Z.

    
    I went to CompUSA on Sunday DEC. 31 to buy a Starion, I checked with
    the people at the desk and they told me that Digital no longer had a
    corporate discount.
    
    My questions are:
    
    1) Are we still able to get a discount at CompUSA??
    
    2) Who should I contact at Digital to see why we are not on the list
       at CompUSA??
    
    Thanks
    
    Karl Glock

>    1) Are we still able to get a discount at CompUSA??

I got a Digital employee discount at the CompUSA in Nashua, NH when I bought some
software there on Saturday, Dec. 30, 1995.  FWIW.

-- Nina

On 29 December 1995, I purchased a SIIG I/O Pro 2 Serial, 1 Parallel ISA 
adapter.  List was 49.99, with DEC discount it was 30.68.  That was at the 
CompUSA in Mission Viejo, California.

I was at the CompUSA in Fountain Valley, California today looking at 28.8 
modems and they indicated that a discount was still available.  I would 
guess that it depends on the area.

These stores are about 20 miles apart.

	Regards,

    No it depends on the clerk you ask.  Some don't bother to look at their
    list.
    
    				Steve

    No problem at the Framingham, MA store on Monday, 1/1/96.  Just had to
    show my badge at the "Corporate PickUp" desk.

    
    RE: .30
    
    The store I went to was in Towson MD.  I checked at the corporate
    discount desk.  I even went to the store manager and had him check
    the list.  I was told that Digital no longer had a discount available.
    
    Is there a Digital person who is the CompUSA corporate contact??
    
    Karl Glock

    The discount, still in effect when I purchased my HP printer on
    12/31/95 (Framingham, MA), only applies depending on the cost of the
    item.  Digital price  is 12% over cost. If they are selling the printer 
    for cost, as they told me, then no discount. However, the printer cable 
    I purchased was discounted from $44 to $15.

  In case anyone is interested.

  	mikeP

    
    
    Karl, 
    
    Call the CompUSA store in Glen Burnie and see what they have to say. 
    See if they can give you the agreement number.
    
    
    Mike 

    I had the same problem in Edison, NJ.  The clerk told me that the
    discount now only applies to systems.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    	I had a customer come into the servicenter today looking far a ink
    refill for his 110i. He said he just came from compusa and they told
    him they no longer carry any DIGITAL products. I called the store and
    was unable to verify there remarks. The few dealings I have had with
    compusa have not been pleasant. Mostly employee problems they don't seem
    to give a rats (*!@&(! if you come or go. Last I heard they were
    loosing money does this sound familiar.

    The other scenario that I've found is that we do not get a "corporate"
    discount; we get an "employee discount".  So unknowledgeable CompUSA
    employees will not find us in the corporate discount list but
    knowledgeable employees say "oh yeah you get an employee discount with
    your badge".  CompUSA's problems rarely are the front line employees
    but a poorly designed infrastrucuture and information systems.  It is
    very difficult to know what they have, what it is used for, how many
    are on order, when they'll be in, how many they've sold already, how
    many are backordered and on and on.  I guess they need to talk to LL
    Bean or someone similar.

    I was in the CompuUSA in Mesa AZ the day after Xmas, looking for a
    printer cartridge for my company-supplied 520ic (the only equipment
    worth beans they've given me for telecommuting!!).  I got the "we no
    longer carry any Digital items" spiel.  Not a computer, printer or
    cartridge to be found.  CompUSA store mentioned by Kam, the on in
    Fountain Valley CA, I am familiar with, and the service there *used to
    be* great (say, about 5 years ago...), but sank to oblivion about 3
    years ago, and I haven't set foot in a CompUSA during that time.  After
    my Xmas visit, where the clerk was rude, the stock was ridiculous, and
    after-Xmas sale items were already out of stock, I don't think I'll be
    going back any time soon.
    
    I went right next door to Staples, and they carried the cartridges at
    $9.99 for a two-pack/black ($12.00 list, according to Staples).  
    Didn't need a color cartridge at the time, so I didn't check the price.
    
    (Flame on, Rathole deepened)
    Some Employee Discount -- clerks don't know about it and stores don't
    carry it.  Lots of incentive to buy Digital there, huh?  I would *love*
    to be able to buy a new(er) Digital PC (starion, whatever), but the
    prices are absolutely scary, even with discount.  I don't even find
    them competitive with what I can get at Incredible Universe, Circuit
    City, etc., from other manufacturers.  
    
    And if there isn't any other reason Digital should provide a better
    discount, it's that lots of people like me *aren't* being issued
    desktop equipment for telecommuting, and it should be considered highly
    embarrassing to have a Digital employee pounding away at a Compaq or a
    Packard Bell or....whatever, 40 hours a week!  What would our customers
    think??  I had a laptop before I went Home Alone, and it broke two week
    after I did.  The last time the d*mned thing broke, I waited 8 weeks
    for it to be fixed.  Luckily for me and for Digital, I have a DECpc
    420sx I bought on the best EPP three + years ago (when you could still
    have it taken out of your pay, interest free and regardless of credit
    history!).  Slow, obsolete, and not-the-best modem (24/9600), but it
    has to do, for now.  At a minimum, we telecommuters should be supplied
    a decent desktop system and printer, with the Office suite, immediately 
    upon signing up for telecommute.  Hmmmmph!
    (Flame off, Rathole returned to public use!)
    
    Regards,
    
    M.
    
    M.

	re:.42

	I also have a DECpc 420SX at home.  I don't consider it obsolete at all.
	I upgraded to 8 meg Ram, installed a 14.4 Kb/sec modem, took out the
	5 1/4" floppy and installed the Soundblaster CD-ROM kit.  I've got 170
	Meg of files crammed into the 105 Meg hard drive (using "drivespace").
	So it's not the fastest thing around but it's very suitable for dialing
	into work or home surfing, etc.  By adding another hard drive I can
	probably hold out for a couple more years until Digital gets it's PC
	act together and offers some good deals to employees.

	John

    Keep dreaming John.
    
    Jerry
    

    Who negotiated the discount agreement for Digital? It seems that is who
    we should be sending this feedback to.
    
    Regards,
    David.
    
    p.s.BTW - I heard Sun gets cost + 9% at CompUSA, so we should get
    getting someone to negotiate.
    

    
    
    	I kinda thought 12% + cost was standard. My wife works for A. T & T.
    	and gets the same deals as us.
    
    	Ken
    

	As for problems with CompUSA, I've talked to two different stores and
	got three different answers.  Only one person said no discount.  The
	rest said yes and were very upset to find out somebody was giving out
	wrong information.

	As for a poor EPP, my thought is don't bother to complain here.  For one
	nobody who can fix it sees it.  For another I believe the people who set
	the policy only care about the bottom line, their job and profit.

	The consept of having us all working on digital equipment, both at work
	and at home is foreign to many people.  Just like marketing was either
	a foreign subject or taboo in digital before Bob took over.

	I would like to be able to afford a digital pc, but on what I earn I
	cannot.  My pay has to go for living, not high priced PCs.  That goes
	for both pay checks, digital's and my part time job.

	dave.

    
    
        I'm in the PCBU.... been in the PC business for over 14 years.
        Our current 20% off list employee discount with PC Complete
    	is very competitive with comparable leading PC manufacturers
    	products.  Availability of the current Starion issue is a 
    	problem of course, but the catalog does include Venturis and
        Celebris systems also available at good discounts.
    
    	gb
    

Gary:

> <<< Note 4330.48 by PCBUOA::BEAUDREAU >>>
> -< stop complaining >-

  Would it be better if everyone just silently bought Compaq/Gateway/
  Dell/etc.?  I should think they're doing *YOU* ("I'm in the PCBU")
  a service by complaining. Too bad no one has taken corrective action
  based on all of the complaints (or posted a strong factual argument
  rebutting the complaints).

                                   Atlant

> <<< Note 4330.48 by PCBUOA::BEAUDREAU >>>
> -< stop complaining >-

By asking people to stop complaining, are you saying there isn't a 
problem?

THE CUSTOMER SAYS THERE IS A PROBLEM.  You can't define it away.

Garry

    Re .48:
    
    The point many people are trying to make is that Digital should
    sell PCs to employees at a much better discount than simply
    "very competitive with comparable leading PC manufacturers
    products".
    
    Benchmark our employee price with the employee price from other
    PC manufacturers (such as Dell or Micron), NOT with some retail
    price.

    
    	This is not something Digital wants to get into (compare to other
    PC manufacturers) since Dell, Gateway, and COMPAQ *give* their
    employees a PC to enhance their productivity....
    
    		the Greyhawk

    What do HP and IBM offer their employees?
    
    Comparisons against Dell, Gateway, and Compaq seem a bit unfair,
    since all three are strictly PC compainies with lower headcount
    than Digital.
    
    Just curious.
    
    Jim 
    

>    Comparisons against Dell, Gateway, and Compaq seem a bit unfair,
>    since all three are strictly PC compainies with lower headcount
>    than Digital.
 
I think the point people are making is that we, Digital, NEED to give the 
employees a GREAT deal on PCs so that they'll have one at home.  Not just a 
"good" deal... and not just "a" deal... but a GREAT deal.  

From my experience, having a PC at home has GREATLY increased my productivity 
on the one here at work.  Plus, I get added "feature" of being able to bring 
work home to do on the PC (write reports, dial in, and generally do the things 
I do while here at work).  FWIW, I bought the PC myself... a Gateway.

Should Digital GIVE us PCs?  Probably not.  What would be a good deal for 
employees?  Maybe 75% of cost?  Maybe 50% of retail?  Right now, our "deal" 
makes buying a Digital PC almost competitive with other vendors.  I'm thinking 
around $1250-$1500 for a $2500 (retail) PC... maybe once per employee every 
2 years.

Anyone got a ballpark figure on how many employee PC's we might sell that 
way?   Maybe 10K?  That's about $10M "loss" to the company each year.  Will we 
get that back?  Easily.  In productivity alone?  And probably even more 
payback in employee morale.  The opinion I hear around (and that I agree with) 
is that Digital is being pretty damn cheap to its employees with its current 
PC deal.... most Digital employees are taking their business to Gateway, Dell, 
Micron, or even the local mom-and-pop type computer stores.

Enough ranting... sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.

-Steve

   With HP, the employee purchases the product at any retail outlet, brings the
   receipt to work and receives a rebate of 10% off the HP suggested retail
   price, regardless of the actual price of purchase. Also, employees are limited
   in purchasing only one of any given item, based upon model number.


   When I was pricing PC's, the Digital discount from PC Complete was superior
   to the HP discount for the comparable models I looked at...

  
   Bob
   

    I bought a 450DX2 back in the EPP days of no interest. No modem.
    Dispite everything I and others have tried to do we have not been able
    to get a modem to function properly. 
    
    We were just 'issued' 28.8 modem for hose that had our own PCs so we
    could dial into work. Well, seems that DEC in its' infinate wisdom had
    already selected Comm 1 and Comm 2 for specific devices [although never
    used] on the back of the PC.
    
    Now no -one seems to know how to disable them....
    
    Moral-- After many hours I bought the PB Pentium 75 w/8meg and 840meg
    HD and 14.4 fax/modem/call center with multimedia for under $1800
    including tax.....

    >> What do HP and IBM offer their employees?
    
    My wife's cousin works for IBM, in a basically "grunt engineer" job,
    nothing special, and they *throw* equipment at him, so much that he
    doesn't even have space for it all.  He can't even keep up with it.
    
    It's hard enough listening to his "they gave me such-and-such last
    week" stories, and how it's helping him stay current, and so on.
    It's even harder to have to answer his questions about what Digital
    does for us.  His facial expression, a pained combination of amazement,
    sympathy, and gloating, is most difficult to endure.
    
    Chris

    >>Anyone got a ballpark figure on how many employee PC's we might sell
    >>that way?   Maybe 10K?
    
    	Sounds reasonable to me... 1 out every 6 employees.
    
    >> That's about $10M "loss" to the company each year.
    
    	Well it's about a $10M expense.
    
    >> Will we get that back?  Easily. In productivity alone?
    
        Not so easily, IMO...
    
    	Are you proposing that the improvements in productivity will
    	allow us to eliminate $10M in expense per year?  At an average
        employee wage + benefits of $100K per year (to keep the math
        simple), this would mean the elimination of 100 jobs...
    
        Or are you suggesting that the improved productivity will
    	generate enough business so that the margin $ on that business
    	will offset the expense.  Let's see...  Last quarter we made
        $48 million on revenues of $3.1 billion (about 1.5%).  At this
        same profitablity ratio, we'd need to increase revenues by more 
        than $600 million per year.  Of course, we should have better profit
        margin on the additional business, but even an additional $300M,
        is a sizable goal (over 2% growth).  
    
    
    >> In morale?
    
    	If it costs Digital, on average, $20K to replace a lost
    	employee, we'd need to lose 500 employees a year (that needed
        replaced) to offset the $10M expense.  Have 500 employees
        quit in the last year that would have stayed if we had a
    	a great PC discount?  Maybe... but I doubt it.
    
    
    I'm not saying that it wouldn't be in Digital's best interest
    to offer a great discount on PCs.   I do disagree with the general
    idea that it is *absolutely obvious* that this is in Digital's 
    best interest.
    
    My 2 cents.
    Jim		

Re 4330.54:

> ... having a PC at home has GREATLY increased my productivity on the one
> here at work.  Plus, I get added "feature" of being able to bring work
> home to do on the PC (write reports, dial in, and generally do the things
> I do while here at work).  FWIW, I bought the PC myself... a Gateway.

Digital didn't give me a PC to use a home, so I don't do office work on the
PC at home.  Simple and extremely nutritious.  I recommend it; it's good
for the sanity.

Digital hasn't given me a PC at the office, so I don't do work on a PC at
the office.  Simple.

Would I prefer to have a PC from Digital?  Yes.  Will I pay for the
privilege of doing my job?  Not that much.

___Pete

>Digital didn't give me a PC to use a home, so I don't do office work on the
>PC at home.  Simple and extremely nutritious.  I recommend it; it's good
>for the sanity.
    
    Digital didn't give me a PC to use at home, however I get some
    enjoyment from my work, and thus do office work on the PC at home. 
    Also, rather than stay back at the office to meet a deadline, it allows
    me to work from the comfort of my own home. (whether I happen to be 
    enjoying the work at that time or not ;-)
    
    Greg.

    Digital provides me currently with a Hinote Ultra (75Mhz, 16MB
    mem,500MB disk, e/net controller & 14.4kbps modem).
    This is to replace my previous DECpc 425 SLC Premium (similar config.)
    Before that, I was equipped with various terminal & modem combinations (that
    was before Digital was really into PCs). At that time, I got my own 
    Macintosh SE first, and then an early DECpc 466 LP (2-year, 0% plan).
    I must add that Digital always picked up the phone bill for the ACB,
    and now for the PPP connection (and I must confess that sometime my
    connections are not directly professional).
    I feel that Digital provides me with better tools that my competitors.

    continuing the rathole:
    
    I do software development on MY PC, with MY software in MY time. Its
    not my core job but DEC owns the code. Is this fair ?
    
    I have asked DEC for up to date hardware and compilers but the answer
    is always the same.
    
    Alan
    

    �I do software development on MY PC, with MY software in MY time. Its
    �not my core job but DEC owns the code. Is this fair ?
    
    I guess this is very much dependent on the local legal situation, anmd
    I don't think it's the case here in Germany (assuming you're not in
    direct competition and don't use 'insider knowlegde' - both of which
    are pretty grey areas for sure).
    
    

   re: Note 4330.62 by WOTVAX::SHARKEYA
    
>    I do software development on MY PC, with MY software in MY time. Its
>    not my core job but DEC owns the code. Is this fair ?
    
    Is this really true?  I remember being asked to sign something when I
    was hired, but don't remember what it really said and wonder how
    binding it is.
    
    -Bruce    
    
    

>>    I do software development on MY PC, with MY software in MY time. Its
>>    not my core job but DEC owns the code. Is this fair ?
>    
>    Is this really true?  I remember being asked to sign something when I
>    was hired, but don't remember what it really said and wonder how
>    binding it is.

To continue the rathole...  Digital owns the code.  The employment agreement
that you signed (in the U.S.) was very specific, and very broad (possibly too
broad).  Anything you create, regardless of how, why, where or when you do it,
belongs to Digital.

Can you work around this?  Possibly.  With the support of your manager, and the
cooperation of the Office of Ethics, it is possible to get Digital to "give up"
it's rights to your software.  These agreements are usually fairly specific, and
usually require that Digital not be interested in your software and/or you are
not competing with Digital; it may be hard to make this work for software
written specifically for OpenVMS, I don't know.  How do I know this?  I went
through the process.

--Scott

				DIGITAL

			  EMPLOYEE AGREEMENT

In consideration of my employment by Digital Equipment Corporation (DIGITAL),
its successors and assigns, a Massachusetts corporation, I hereby agree as
follows:

1. I will make full and prompt disclosure to DIGITAL of all inventions,
improvements, modifications, discoveries, methods and developments (all of
which are collectively termed "developments" hereinafter), whether patentable
or not, made or conceived by me or under my direction during my employment,
whether or not made or conceived during normal working hours or on the premises
of DIGITAL.

2. Upon request by DIGITAL, I agree to assign to DIGITAL all developments
covered by Paragraph 1 and any patents or patent applications covering such
developments and to execute and deliver such assignments, patents and
applications, and other documents as DIGITAL may direct and to fully
cooperate with DIGITAL to enable DIGITAL to secure and patent or otherwise
protect such developments in any and all countries.  However, this Paragraph
2 shall not apply to developments which do not relate to the actual or
anticipated business or research and development of DIGITAL or its subsidiary
or affiliated corporations, provided that such developments are made or
conceived by me entirely during other than DIGITAL working hours, and not on
DIGITAL's premises and not with the use of DIGITAL's equipment, supplies,
facilities, tools, devices, or trade secret information.

3. I hereby represent that, to the best of my knowledge, I have no present
obligation to assign to any former employer or any other person, corporation
or firm, any developments covered by Paragraph 2.  I also represent that, to
the best of my knowledge, there is no legal prohibition including but not
limited to an agreement with any former employer that might prevent me from
performing my duties of employment with DIGITAL.

4. I will also assign to DIGITAL any and all copyrights and reproduction rights
to any material prepared by me in connection with my employment.

5. I will not disclose to DIGITAL, or induce DIGITAL to use, any confidential
information of other persons, corporations or firms, including my former
employers (if any).

6. During the course of employment by DIGITAL, I may learn of DIGITAL's
confidential information or confidential information entrusted to DIGITAL by
other persons, corporations or firms.  DIGITAL's confidential information
includes matters not generally known outside DIGITAL, such as developments
relating to existing and future products and services marketed or used by
DIGITAL and also data relating to the general business operations of DIGITAL
(e.g., concerning sales, costs, profits, organizations, customer lists, pricing
methods, etc.).  I agree not to disclose any confidential information of
DIGITAL or of such other persons, corporations or firms to others or to make
use of it, except on DIGITAL's behalf, whether or not such information is
produced by my own efforts.  Also, I may learn of developments, ways of
business, etc., which in themselves are generally known but whose use by
DIGITAL is not generally known, and I agree not to disclose to others such
use, whether or not such use is due to my own efforts.

7. At the time I begin my employment and during the term of my employment by
DIGITAL, I will not engage in or become employed by or act on behalf of any
other person, corporation or firm which is engaged in any business or activity
similar to or competitive with that of DIGITAL, unless such employment has
been approved by DIGITAL in writing and signed by an appropriate personnel
manager of DIGITAL.

8. In the event that my employment is transferred by DIGITAL to a subsidiary
or affiliated company (as the case may be), my employment by such company will,
for the purposes of this agreement, be considered as continued employment by
DIGITAL, unless and until I execute an agreement, substantially similar in
substance to this agreement, then in force in any such company for which I
become employed.

9. I hereby give DIGITAL permission to use photographs of me, either during or
after my employment, with or without using my name, for whatever purposes it
deems necessary.

10. Upon termination of my employment, unless my employment is transferred to
a subsidiary or affiliated company of DIGITAL, I agree to leave with DIGITAL
all records, drawings, notebooks and other documents pertaining to DIGITAL's
confidential information, whether prepared by me or others, and also any
equipment, tools or other devices in my possession which are owned by DIGITAL.

11. My obligations under this agreement shall survive the termination of my
employment regardless of the manner of such termination, and shall be binding
upon my heirs, executors and administrators.

							WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL

			Signature_________________________________________(Seal)

			Date___________________________


WITNESS____________________________

EN-01078-06-REVB(646) (machine copy transcribed by JRC)

Yep - sounds about what I signed too. I'm not that bothered about it - 
I would rather that DEC paid for my tools. I enjoy the hacking for its 
own sake. But it would be nice to be appreciated in some material 
fashion.

Alan

>To continue the rathole...  Digital owns the code.  The employment agreement
>that you signed (in the U.S.) was very specific, and very broad (possibly too
>broad).  Anything you create, regardless of how, why, where or when you do it,
>belongs to Digital.
    
    I just reread the "Employee Agreement" and still would question how 
    binding it really is.
    
    -Bruce

Re: .65, et. al.

>To continue the rathole...  Digital owns the code.  The employment agreement
>that you signed (in the U.S.) was very specific, and very broad (possibly too
>broad).  Anything you create, regardless of how, why, where or when you do it,
>belongs to Digital.

This varies according to local and state law.  Here in Washington, there is
is a specific addendum to the employee agreement which nullifies much of the
wording in the broad agreement.  The gist is that Digital owns it if the work
was done as part of paid work.

I'll post it here if I remember to dig it out ...

Bob

    RE .56
    
    I too have one of the those beloved Tandy 450DX2's. I have an external
    14.4K modem hanging off COM1. It works great. If your modem happens to
    be internal, you should be able to set it up as COM3 or COM4. COM3
    shares IRQ4 with COM1. COM4 shares IRQ3 with COM2. Assuming your
    software supports COM3 and/or COM4, you should be able to use an
    internal modem. Just make sure you don't try to use two COM ports which
    share the same IRQ simultaneously, i.e. don't use COM1 and COM3 at the
    same time.
    
    I know that PROCOMM supports COM3/4. I can't vouch for other
    communication packages. Hope this helps.
    
    Russ 

re.67:

I created code whilst working for Digital that does not belong to Digital 
(and I was paid for it!). I was able to do this because I asked for permission
in advance. 

Dave.

    Anker Berg-Sonne went through all this with SEDT. He retained his code
    because, Like Dave Kerrell, it was all done up-front. Jerry Cummings,
    who wrote COMPOSE, had all sorts of problems because he didn't organise
    it up-front. In the end, he wrote JKEY from outside the Company. Yep,
    he, like Anker, has left.
    
    Laurie.

            The last few are quite right.  I started my own game software
    partnership, and had no problems with Digital.  I went to my manager
    with my proposal to start a business, gave him the specifics of who my
    partners were, what we were going to write, and asked for a letter from
    Digital allowing us to proceed apart from Digital.  It took about 2
    weeks and we received a letter from Corporate Legal and Personnel
    stating that it was ok, as long as we were not in competition with
    Digital.  One thing that does make me feel fairly secure, is that one
    of my partners is a practicing Attorney, he keeps all that legal stuff
    straight for us.

    Jim Morton

Yes, I did that too with EasyEdit (anyone remember that). Trouble is, 
the hacks I'm writing now are all Lan Manager bits - stuff that makes 
PATHWORKS vaguely usable (no offense intended)

Alan

[Like I said, my real beef is that DEC won't keep me up to date - I 
have to do it out of my own pocket]

    Get an Attorney, explain the situation, you might be able to either get
    Digital to Fund/Supply the tools, or Forfeit any rights.  It may take a
    court battle upfront to contest the Employee Agreement.  If it were me,
    I'd try.
    
    Jim Morton

On my salary ????

:-))

Alan

    Re: .73
    
    Jerry is still around (working with the TeamLinks engineering group);
    unless he has left very, very recently.
    
    ...petri
    

Just went to Mission Viejo, California CompUSA to get a I/O module and adapter
for a wireless mouse.  I was talking to the guy at the computers - I asked what
he thought of the Starions?  he indicated "great machine but we're discontinuing
them shortly."  When I asked why he just shrugged his shoulders and indicated
that management does strange things.  They should ask the people on the floor
because most thought the Starion was one of the better systems available.  Maybe
it didn't have the volumes he then indicated.

Still got my cost + 12%
	$30  for an I/O card regular $49.99	
	$1.50 mouse adapter regular $6.95


	Regards,

    RE: .78
    
    I stand corrected. I was sure he'd said good bye in one of the PC
    conferences. Oh well...
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    The CompUSA deal is still in effect in Framingham MA; I just bought
    some TDK 90M DAT tapes for $12.05/2pk (regularly $19.95)! 
    
    This is pretty good deal, because branded 90M tapes are hard to find
    below $7 mailorder..
    
    
    ...tom
    

    Are we still getting the discount at CompUSA? I just stopped by to pick
    up an adapter for a service call and couldn't get the discount (which I
    did get on Monday, but from another clerk). Today I ran into a fogbank
    of confusion from those folks. Neither the clerk (who kept stopping to
    answer the phone), nor the operations manager, had a clue. It'll be
    like trying to do business with Digital if it gets much worse over
    there. I'm filling out a survey after this entry. Maybe they have
    someone somewhere who cares about the customers.
    	I have to say, tho, as confused as they were, they were smoothe.

	I've been quoted prices (but haven't bought anything on the discount
recently) as late as two nights ago (Wed).  The Nashua store at least has told
me in the past that there's a $25 min purchase to get the discount.

	{I loved the quote for the $19.98 printer cable -> $3.80}

							--Doug

I was just at COMPUSA in Nashua on 9-July with my son picing up some toys for
him.  I can't recall the EXACT price savings but they were something like:

	CD-ROM		$59  dec price 50
	Sound board	???  saved $10 here too
	joystick	$29  $22
	game		$29  $25
	game		$49  $44
	game		$29  $23

as you can see, they vary quite a bit and there's no fixed rule of thumb, other
than as .1 confirms, the biggest savings tend to be on cables and other HIGH
margin stuff where %10 above cost still means something...

-marm

    Just purchased Microsoft FrontPage and received a Digital discount. 
    Then I mailed in the $49 rebate to Microsoft and scored twice.
    
    	Regards,

    >me in the past that there's a $25 min purchase to get the discount.
    
    At the Brighton, MA store, I've often gotten the discount on books that
    were origonally priced < $20 (and the book was the total purchase). Once
    all I purchased was  a $12 anti-static mat (that wound up being about
    $2.50).
    
    
    Deb 

    As has been mentioned here and elsewhere before, CompUSA does not do a
    consistent job of managing this kind of thing.  For example, when I
    needed to buy cables for a customer machine in Mesa AZ (I live/work in
    NY), the store there denied there was any such thing - all the way up
    to the manager.  This was in June 1995.

    and to add one more data point - 
    
    at the Woburn, MA CompUSA I found that for accessories anything below
    $25 was retail.  For items over $25 the Digital discount was cost plus
    15%.  For the Logitech mouse I was purchasing the Digital-discounted
    price ended up being higher than retail.  A quick glance at their price
    book showed that other companies were getting accessory discounts at
    cost plus 7% or better.