Conference 7.286::digital

    Since probably 95% of the folks in Digital with PCs will be running
    Windows 95 on their desktop in the next couple of years, where do you
    think GPS should invest it's time and training dollars?
    
    Dave

	How hard is it to connect? If the drivers for the board are
	installed, it's just a matter of getting 

	a TCP/IP address 
	the default gateway for the address
	TCP/IP addresses of DNS name servers

	Ask for that and don't tell them it's for NT.

	If you need backups done, alot of CNS/GPS/NYA (name your acronym)
	sites are using DECnsr. There is a DECnsr client for NT. See the
	DECnsr notesfile on DECWET::.

							mike
						Into NT in a big way
						EXCEPT for Notes.

� Since probably 95% of the folks in Digital with PCs will be running Windows 95
� on their desktop in the next couple of years, where do you think GPS should
� invest it's time and training dollars?

In a couple of years, Windows 95 will be an obsolete product, so even more
people will be running Windows NT then.  GPS should support both Windows 95 and
Windows NT.  I can't imagine a good argument for *not* supporting Windows NT.

Paul

RE: .2

There is no problem connecting a NT box to the EasyNet.  Just apply 
for a node name and DECnet or IP address the same as you would for 
any other system.

This note comes to you from GEMNT3, which is an Alpha NT system.

--PSW, into NT in a big way, *including* Notes

Another perspective:

My entire Team/Unit/Center (over 40 people) use NT & 95 
exclusively at ALF.  We have full support (after
resolution of some printing issues) from GPS.

We mostly connect via TCP/IP to hosts and have adopted
the TeamLinks mail client.  As someone who is technically 
knowledgeable, I assisted a few GPS folks in coming up 
to speed on supporting some of our network requirements -
- all while working 60+ hour weeks.  Read: help others
to help you.

As a company filled with employees who are technically
adept, I suggest offering assistance to GPS, as well as other
groups, instead of fostering a we vs. them attitude.

Our competitors give us enough to deal with.  I suggest 
we pull together.

Phil

    re : previous few ..
    
    I have the TCP/IP address and I have connected the system etc etc.
    When I try to log on thoguh KEAterm, I get the message that "No
    communication port configured". When I called CNS or GPS or what ever
    they are called these days.  I was told sorry we donot support NT
    systems). By the way I have been waiting for nearly 30+ days to get
    some one to respond and the answer I get is GPS is not yet ready to
    support to NT. I have placed sevral calls and get the same old answer.
    I will wait for one more week and dump the NT system and change it to a 
    UNIX system.
    
    Jay
    
     
    

re .-1

Don't make hasty decisions. Like someone else suggested, don't tell GPS 
that it is an NT problem.

From the little info you've posted here, your Keaterm problem sounds like 
it may not be NT related. Here's a shot in the dark:

In your Options menu select Communications and make sure you have Telnet 
selected. In the setup for telnet, select Windows Sockets as your TCP Type. 
Keep clicking on the OK button to save your configuration. When you get 
back to the emulator screen, hit return and you should be prompted for a 
host to connect to.

        C'Ya,
        Wayne (Formery with GPS Specialized Services)

    >When I try to log on thoguh KEAterm, I get the message that "No
    >communication port configured". When I called CNS or GPS or what ever
    
    This is a KeaTerm configuration issue. It isn't unique to NT. By
    default, KeaTerm isn't configured to use any communications ports or
    devices. Click on 'configure' from the menu bar, then click on
    'communications'. You'll get all kinds of options (including a 'help'
    button). ;-)
    
    Harry
    

    re .7 and .8
    
    Thanks !
    
    

>In a couple of years, Windows 95 will be an obsolete product, so even more
>people will be running Windows NT then.  GPS should support both Windows 95 and
>Windows NT.  I can't imagine a good argument for *not* supporting Windows NT.

Then you're not imagining hard enough.  Again, most of the customer base in
Digital will run 95 for the next few years.  Whether or not 95 will be obsolete
in the near future will not change that fact.  It'll take a good 2 years AFTER
95 is obsolete before the entire Digital population is using Windows NT; the
fact that the interface will be nearly identical is irrelavent.  Stuff moves
slow in a company this size.

I apologize if I'm coming across as defensive and, yes, I do work for GPS.
Time and time again I've seen requests for us to support EVERYTHING.  And
my "customers" (co-workers I should say) get really angry when every employee
in GPS doesn't know Windows 95, WfW, DOS, UNIX, OpenVMS, etc...  Especially
our Help Desks, "Whaddya mean you don't know how to boot a DECstation 5000/260
over the network?"  We, in support orgs, need to feel comfortable with a
product/OS before we can provide decent support for it.  True, NT's been around
for a while, but we were so immersed in PathWorks that we never spent much
time with it.

Dave

So if you aren't going to provide support for one of the 3 primary
OSes that run on Alpha platforms, and an "interesting" one for people
running Intel systems that want better stability, you presumably won't
mind if "consumer" groups:

    1) Look for other means of support
    2) Ask to have any "tax" reduced based on services not being provided
       for systems that are being used?

(from someone who runs NT at both home and work to avoid reboots...)

(Personal opinion: Centralized services should be just like companies -
you can chose not to do something, but if you chose not to, don't
expect funding from groups or users that you aren't servicing, and
if something else is introduced to meet a need, don't gripe about
them "taking away business".  It should be the case that either you're
a [near] monopoly and provide [near] "universal service", or you aren't,
and expect competition.)

    Jay,  There seems to be a misunderstanding which I would like the 
    opportunity to set straight.  GPS does support NT..but under contract and
    PerCall under specific situations.  Contract support typically speaks 
    to server support. Both categories require a GPS work request w/input 
    from the Business and an approval process (GPS) prior to dispatching support. 
    In your specific case a network connection only was needed.
    Plans for NT Desktop support are presently underway (as a commodity
    service and will support network connects as part of NT Desktop
    service.
    When your call was reported it was not clear what was required. 
    Once we had our discussion, arrangements were made to accomodate your
    request.  GPS is aware of the internal needs of our customers, and
    we have the required skillset to accomodate NT. I am not insensitive
    to your frustration in that it did take a month to respond to your
    request.
    But please know, from where I sit, we are practicing what we preach..
    we do whatever it takes to get the job done we just need to beef 
    up our response times.
    Denise Costigan 
    GPS 
     

    As a GPS staff member I'm sorry the writer of .0 is is unhappy that he
    cannot NT support at this time.
    
    As I think has already been mentioned in this note, we only have so
    many resources to go around.  NT support is being developed and should
    be announced shortly.  That should be for HELPDESK support, with
    additional services like domains to be announced as the are ready. 
    Besides training, we also have to invest in hardware to make some of
    the services available, and this just takes time to make happen.
    
    6 months ago, almost no one was talking about needing NT, it was all
    Windows and maybe OSF.  Since the announcement with Microsoft, the talk
    and user feedback is Windows95 and NT.
    
    So that people can be prepared in advance, GPS maintains a catalog of
    services.  If you choose to use an OS or application not included in
    the catalog, include that in your risks assessment before proceding.
    
    If you have additonal needs, I would suggest escalating your needs to
    our Client Services organization via the HELPDESK.
    
    David Corbishley                                  

    .12
    
    Denise, Thanks for your response. I was able to get it done- through 
    other users. Reply .13 was helpful in understanding the situation better. 
    However I am surprised that we did not anticipate the demand for NT,
    particularly whem we have been big on NT for past two + years !! Am I
    missing something ! Just curious.
    
    Regards
    
    Jay
    
    

re .14

Yes, you are missing something. But this conference is probably not the 
right forum to discuss this. Most of this "something" is the reason why I 
left GPS.

	C'Ya,
	Wayne

    RE: .14
    
    Lets just say the external world does not map 100% to the internal
    world.  I also think many people would argue that NT is only just now
    becoming of interest to the outside world as well.  But this is not
    really the point of your questions.
    
    All of the Production applications have been OpenVMS based until just
    recently, with SAP/R3 on Digital UNIX.  Our first Windows NT
    application will probably be Microsoft Exchange when it gets released. 
    The point I'm trying to make is that I haven't seen much internal
    market pull for NT support.
    
    As people look at upgrading from Windows 3.1 or WFWG to Windows95 or
    Windows NT (whichever is best for their particular needs) I think they
    will see the support is available at that time.
    
    Granted that support is not there for the early adopters, but it should
    be for the majority when it is needed.
    
    David

    RE: .11
    
    I hope my last reply answers your 1) point.  As to 2), I'm not aware of
    any "tax".  I think what you are referring to is the old cost
    allocation method where you were charged a flat fee or budget %.  That
    has changed in that you now register for specific services like
    ALL-IN-1 or site server accounts, Desktop PC Support, etc. that are in
    the GPS catalog with standard prices.  As was pointed out by another
    person, NT support is not currently in that standard offering.
    
    As always, if you don't need a service, don't buy it.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    David

    re: .1 .10
    
    Not sure where Dave was coming from. We, GPS AMII, had  extensive
    Windows NT training back in the Spring/Summer which Dave was a part
    of. Training is not an issue. Perhaps Dave was suffering from "short
    timers" disease as he has since left Digital. 8-)
    
    Jim C.
    

    
    	GPS, should now have, what customers have had .....
    
    	o A NT domain strategy with at least some hierarchy. (pick one)
    
    	o DHCP support including address, mask, DNS, WINS, gateway addrs
            We dont need people to implement addressing, this is not a
   	    security problem either, if implemented properly
    
    	o WINS servers in each geography doing pushes and pulls from corp
            
    	o RAS support, not that terminal server security leak, more below.
    
    	o NT file servers should replace Pathworks except the small/few
    	    employees needing protected vms-pc file transactions
    
    	o We should center on TCPIP and avoid DECnet when possible.
    
    	We Digital have engineered the multiple password/username scenario we
    are trying to save our customers from.
    
    	Our terminal-server based dial up PPP solution is nothing better
    than share-level protection scheme.  This first employee departing the
    corporation takes it with them and it isnt updated for 3 months. 
    Meanwhile the network is open to the password and there is NO logging
    of any user information.  Someone should plug this leak pronto.
    An NT based RAS PPP solution is much safer because it would be based on
    your central employee profile (account), which if yanked, would render
    the account useless, and no password needed changing, anywhere!
    
    	
    Working for Digital does not always mean using our own products, when
    others are cheaper to support.  Microsoft is learning this, so should
    we.
    
    
    Mark,  oops did I say too much already?  

    Most of this is on the way and should be announced shortly.

    Since I wrote the base note 3 months ago, I had an opportunity to find
    out how far we have come in terms of supporting NT on Alpha. Last week
    there was a power failure and my system crashed. I was not able to boot
    the system. I get the boot menu- but when I try to boot, I get the
    message : ERROR : BAD IMAGE FILE TYPE Press any key to continue"  I
    called the Helpline and logged a call. After 4 days some one showed up,
    only to tell me that GPS still DONOT support NT and they DONOT have any
    skill set to support NT on a ALPHA for internal customers. The person
    who was assigned to fix the problem was nice and honest to admit this.
    I was shocked to hear that  they do not know anything about NT on Alpha.
    
    He also said that he will check with the notes file to see what could
    be the answers. I am still surprised that while the whole corporation
    is marching towards NT, our GPS has not developed the necessary skill
    set to support NT on ALPHA. I some how gathered the impression that if
    you have an Alpha NT worksation do not expect any support from GPS and
    one is better off with VMS or UNIX.
    
    It is about time GPS develops the necessary skill sets to support the
    NT customers. Whole corporation is marching towards WNT, while GPS still 
    keeps singing the same old song " WE DONOT SUPPORT NT ". Now I can
    imagine what the external customers must be going through trying to get 
    NT support on Alpha.
    
    Nobody asked - Just my opinion !!
    
    Jay
    

I work for GPS.  Usually I do not reply to these types of notes because
I can understnad users frustrations.  One thing that has been pointed out 
before, but, obviously needs to be brought up again is the BU fund GPS.
We are constantly being told to cut our costs.

If you have a business need to have NT supported by GPS have your
management get in touch with your GPS client rep to request the support.

We do have people supporting NT now and we are working on building
NT domains.  As far as I know NT support is not a commodity service 
yet.  If you need NT support there needs to be a contract for it.

I do not like having to tell people that I can not help them because they are 
not paying for the service, but, if I spend time helping people for free I will
soon be out of a job....  Unfortunately this is Digital in the 90's..

Dave V

    Dave,
    
    In my opinion in order for Business Units to buy NT service from GPS, 
    they should list the service.
    
    Since NT support is NOT a commodity service, I cannot buy the service,
    even though we were willing to buy the service, I also told NT support 
    will be available shortly. ( As you can see from the previous replies
    written several weeks ago )  I was given the impressions that the only 
    way GPS will support NT is on per call ( consulting ) basis. No one asks 
    for a free service. Help us and Bill us- That is fine and we all 
    understand it. 
    
    I get frustrated when I am told ( after waiting for 4 working days ),
    GPS has no skill set on NT for Alpha. 
    
    
    

I know GPS has work to do.  We are trying.
4 days is a long time to wait to be told you don't have support.

If you need NT support you should have your management talk to your
GPS client rep.  I do not know if there is anyone available to do NT
support in MRO.  I am pretty sure we have some people doing NT 
support on a contract basis  in Maynard.  We also have had a number of
people go through some basic NT training.

Dave V

    Have you tried...
    
    	Checking / asking in the NT notes file?
    
    	Educating yourself on NT (books, etc)?
    
    	Calling the customer support center?
    
    You have had three months to figure this out!

Re: LAST

Pardon me for jumping in but...

I think that you have missed the point, which, as I understand it is that
Digital, as a corporation sells and promotes NT as one of its three
operating system offerings.  We tell the world that they should buy
NT, that Digital is committed to NT.  At the same time though, there
is only spotty support for NT within the corporation.  This hardly
seems like an acceptable situation to me.

[Disclaimer:  I don't use NT.  I can't speak from personal experience
              about NT or the quality of GPS.]

    Re .25
    
    Have you tried...
    
    	Checking / asking in the NT notes file?
    
	> So notes file is the only support available ? 

    	Educating yourself on NT (books, etc)?
    
	> Yes.. I have limited knowledge of NT.. But not to be a support person,
        > since this is not my professional goal.
    	
        Calling the customer support center?
    
	>> To my knowledge CSC does not answer internal customer questions. If
       I have to go by this argument, should I call MCS for internal support ?

    You have had three months to figure this out!

Excuse Me.. You have missed the whole point.. Yes! I can do all the things
above to some extent. But I am NOT a NT systems support specialist. But my 
job is not to become an NT expert, If I have to go with your argument,  you 
expect every one to be  systems support specialist in UNIX or NT to get their
problems resolved.

In this case I have tried all kinds of things and I am going round and round.
I cannot install new firmware, ( I get DEVICE ERROR message), Install 
Windows NT from CD ROM ( BAD DEVICE NAME ) etc etc. I am going in a loop.

My argument is that this corporation is selling NT on Alpha for past 3+ years
( at least ). Till now we have not developed a mechanism to support our 
internal users. I had to wait for 4 days to be told that we don't have the
skill set to do Alpha NT. In a way I feel I am getting a message from GPS not
to use NT internally, since GPS does not support it. As I said in my earlier 
message, I wonder what kinds of support our external customers are getting. 


          

    Well, Jay, now let's extrapolate a little, and ignore GPS.
    
    Suppose you were an OEM customer who'd bought (say) a hundred AlphaPC64
    boards, and this was the kind of support you got after (e.g.) a power
    failure. Would you be looking for your money back off the hardware
    vendor ?
    
    Or is that a leading question, your honour ?
    
    john

    I guess I did miss the point.  I wouldn't flail around for three months
    accomplishing nothing.  I would have read a manual, researched some
    notes files, asked around, and if worse came to worse, called the CSC.
    
    My NT problem would have been solved 2 1/2 months ago.
    
    Sorry if I offended you.

      re: NCMAIL::SMITHB

	Jay said he waited 4 days not 3 months. Your answer looks like 
	'read the f... manual'. We are still a 60K company. Aren't we?
	I used to work in a 5 employees sotfware house. Machines were 
	bought with no support contract so our only solution was 'read
	the manuals'. I learnt an awfull lot of stuff (80% of them are now
	obsolete) but sorry most of the time I did not find this as a
	best usage of my talents.

      NT support: (broken infrastructure)
	
	What I observed in the past year was the BUs building there own
	NT expertise. GPS stuck to VMS in the data center and a bit of PC 
	Windows support (most of the time box moving). Their alibi was we
	do not have the resources, job cutting, more stuff to support...

	In December I heard that GPS worlwide is finally entering in the
	WNT world. Can somebody confirm?  Obviously this did not reach our
	location since we had to call MCS for a recent problem in setting
	up NT. To be noted that GPS seamed to have no agreement with MCS
	for this sort of intervention (give me your cost center!).

	I'm still confident that we cannot internaly missed the NT train
	again and again. To use the classical cliches we have to build a
	'best-in-class' infrastructure, a showcase for our customers...
	 NT is the cornerstone of it.

	Joel

    The sign over the next aisle to the north of mine says "Windows NT
    Team".  I don't know if they do internal customer support or not but
    nearly everybody else in the building does.  (the building is CXO3) 
    
    It would seem from my personal observations here in the CSC that a
    typical customer, when encountering a problem will do one of these
    things:
    1. pick up the phone and call the CSC.
    2. read the manual while waiting in the phone queue after calling the
       CSC.  Drop off if he finds the answer.
    3. Read the manual.  Try lots of things and:
    	a. fix the problem or
    	b. make things worse then
    	c. call the CSC.
    4. Call all of their computer literate friends in the hope of obtaining
       guidance then start at 3 (above) with backup plan 1 (above).
    
    It doesn't matter which of the above methods you use.  You'd be amazed
    at some of the strange things people call about.  A corrupted file
    after a power failure is no laughing matter.  If the
    basenoter had stated that he called the CSC and gotten the run-around
    then the complaint, in my opinion, would be pretty well justified.  Did
    you, in fact call the CSC?

    My understanding of GPS is that it provides IT services to Digital
    internally.  I would think their mandate is not only to support the
    existing infrastructure but provide new service offerings that reflect
    changing internal technology trends/directions.  In return for their
    best in class services they will be provided with revenue from the
    business units.  If the business units are unwilling to pay for a
    service then a service will not be provided.  I think this a pretty
    simple equation.;-)
    
    My customer has recently gone through the process of making their
    IT organization more competitive with what is offered on the street. 
    The objective was to provide best in class internal support at "street"
    competitive prices.  Now, their IT organization actually competes
    internally for business (ie. wired versus wireless solutions).  They
    also provide a varied list of services that they offer to end
    users.  If services are not being used they are withdrawn or modified
    as their market requires.  They are very aggressive in their response
    to end user needs.  It is almost like the end user community is their
    customer and they will provide whatever services the end user demands
    (for a fee).  A novel concept. ;-)  In some cases they might even try
    to anticipate user requirements....
    
    Is the infrastructure falling apart though?  I'm not sure that's
    necessarily the case.  I think a lot of individuals are struggling to
    define what the future should be.  Our traditional infrastructure of an
    all seeing, all knowing IT organization is changing.  I don't think
    anyone has stepped forward as the change agent, therefore, we're
    floundering a bit right now.  
    
    Everyone has a responsibility and I think it's important to focus 
    on those.  As an Account Manager in the field I've lived with having to 
    travel through many different systems to dig out information.  It's not
    perfect but I feel confident that groups and individuals are trying to
    provide the most effective means possible for me to retrieve
    information.  The bigger sin is the lack of current information.  Often
    times the only way to get current product information is to call the
    product manager if he/she can be found.  I think this is simply poor
    management.  In the field a rep typically will go to VTX IR or to web
    pages to get information.  If your going to have a web page or a VTX IR
    entry, either keep it current or get rid of it completely.
    
    
      
    have greater control/responsibility then ever beforeThe problem is
    the management of this change t
    cut costs I don't believe it was intended to reduce service levels but
    rather to provide the same high level of service but at lower cost to
    the business units

    re .27
    
>In this case I have tried all kinds of things and I am going round and round.
>I cannot install new firmware, ( I get DEVICE ERROR message), Install 
>Windows NT from CD ROM ( BAD DEVICE NAME ) etc etc. I am going in a loop.

    Just a wild guess from far away,  but are you sure you don't have
    some sort of a hardware problem?  Being unable to install new 
    firmware has nothing to do with NT itself.
    
    						-al

Check to make sure that you can see all of your
devices.  Go to "Display hardware configuration"
in the supplementary menu.  The second screen
will list the com ports, parallel ports, floppy
drives, and SCSI devices detected by the
firmware.

It sounds like you're not seeing your CD-ROM
drive.