Conference 7.286::digital

    At least now you know how our customers feel when they try to *order*
    something from us!

>    Is there a person in Digital who oversees the External Education
>    Assistance Office?  I have a complaint regarding the EEAO.

Jill Goldsmith, POWDML::

I had significant problems with the new process, and I communicated
directly with Jill.  She responded in a timely and thorough fashion,
and she had the folks in Detroit follow-up.  They solved my
immediate problems, and Jill indicated that Digital is considering
making changes/improvements to the process.

Regards,
Jean

    I've used them and found them to be extremely slow. It took almost 3
    weeks to receive the voucher so I could register. I just mailed my book
    receipts this week, so I'll be interested to see how long that takes.
    The base noters experience was my worst nightmare. I hope we're saving
    LOTS of money because I've seen the process get more more and more
    remote and user unfriendly. When I re-started my MBA 5 years ago, I got
    my CC manager's signature, walked down to the end of the hall to petty
    cash office and got a check. Then they consolidated into the Mill, then
    they closed the Mill and consolidated to MKO, all the while continuing
    to promise quick turnaround. Now it's been consolidaterd right out of
    the company. What a pain. I appreciate the educational benefit, but the
    constantly changing processes, forms, people really get to be a hassle.
    Fortunately, I'm on my last class and won't have to deal with it again.
    
    Reb

    The problem with the way the process used to be, was that some 
    people managed to steal thousands & thousands of dollars from
    Digital because no one bothered to verify if the employee even
    registered, let alone passed the course. 
    
    Think of it, all you had to do was go to petty cash for the check,
    then how many managers asked for grades?  How many even kept track
    of what classes their employees had signed up for?
    
    So, Joe Employee picks up a check for $2000 for an MBA course (or
    whatever), then conceivably spends it any way they please!  And
    more than one employee did!!
    
    Sue

    If I were a cynical type (which I'm not - really!), I'd say that the
    process is designed to be difficult to discourage those who don't have
    the requisite fortitude/attitude to make this work. 
    
    But I'd only say that if I were cynical - which I'm not.

Re: .4, describing how some employees abused the old system, and how
	of course the managers didn't check up...

This is yet another example that REALLY MAKES ME MAD!!  This response is
BACKWARDS!!   Those managers had a DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to verify
the courses and grades for the tuition that THEY SIGNED FOR.

If you discover a situation like that, the proper response (IMHO) is to
FIRE both the employee (for fraud) and the manager (for dereliction of
duty, and possible collusion) involved in a very public way.

Believe me, it wouldn't take too many cases like this, if publicized, to
ensure that all tuition expenses are properly scrutinized by the approving
manager!

Instead, you make it more difficult for Digital's employees to improve 
themselves on their own time!

If you have given the manager authority, hold them ACCOUNTABLE.  Don't punish
everyone else.

Kevin

>  <<< Note 4157.4 by SHRCTR::SCHILTON "Press any key..no,no,not that one!" >>>
>                          -< Process *had* to change >-

>    The problem with the way the process used to be, was that some 
>    people managed to steal thousands & thousands of dollars from
>    Digital because no one bothered to verify if the employee even
>    registered, let alone passed the course. 
    
>    Think of it, all you had to do was go to petty cash for the check,
>    then how many managers asked for grades?  How many even kept track
>    of what classes their employees had signed up for?
    
>    So, Joe Employee picks up a check for $2000 for an MBA course (or
>    whatever), then conceivably spends it any way they please!  And
>    more than one employee did!!
    
    Sue,

    I agree that your example may have had something to do with the change,
    although I believe it was as a result of the downsizing effort.

    The example you gave is something that I hate to see in any situation.
    If there were managers who were not doing their job, they should be
    dealt with instead of making life difficult for many people.

    Ron

    By the way, I am three weeks away from my next 8 week term and I mailed
    the application today.  We will see how long it takes this time.

    Ron

    I agree with both of you, but being realistic, how often do the
    majority suffer because of the actions of a few?
    
    Sue

re: .9

>                              -< All the time... >-
>
>    I agree with both of you, but being realistic, how often do the
>    majority suffer because of the actions of a few?
    
But that neither makes it right or sensible.  If 50,000 people say a
foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.

-Hal

    No, that doesn't make it right or sensible.
    
    The process was broke the way it was.
    I'm not saying it's fixed now.
    I am a cynic and don't expend energy where it won't make a difference.
    
    Sue

>       <<< Note 4157.0 by LILCPX::THELLEN "Ron Thellen, DTN 522-2952" >>>
>                  -< External Educational Assistance Office >-

>        September 28    I still have not received the vouchers or book
>        (1� more weeks) reimbursement.  I called the EEAO (again) and they
>                        said that they had received the vouchers from the
>                        school and that they had mailed the check to the
>                        school this morning.  When I asked about my book
>                        reimbursement I was told that a check was mailed to
>                        me this morning as well.

    The check for the books arrived on Saturday (2 day turnaround).  Now
    let's see how long it takes for the latest tuition voucher to get here.

    Ron

    In the last few months (including during the transition from the old
    way to the new way) I have gone to these folks for both traditional
    University classes as well as for non-traditional external training.
    They have always been professional, timely, helpful, and best of all,
    friendly! The couple of times we played phone tag they always called me
    back. I don't discount that some folks may run into trouble here or
    there, but my experience with them has been great.
    
    	BD�

I too had problems getting reimbursed.  

I mailed the form on 8/15 and didn't get the money until 9/21.

A few days after I mailed the form, a guy from the program office
called me and asked me for some information I had missed on the form.
I felt bad for sending off an incomplete form.  As an administrator, 
I understand their frustrations with receiving incomplete forms-- 
all the education forms in our cost center come to me first before 
going to the program office.  I haven't gotten one form yet that's 
been 100% complete. I end up correcting them before sending them to 
the program office.

Anyway this is no excuse.  It still took 5 weeks from the time I gave
him the missing information to when I actually got the money.   When I 
called and asked for status, they were all confused.  First they said
it had been processed and a voucher had been sent to my home (I think 
that was a line of bull because the courses were taxable which means 
I would get reimbursed via payroll), then he changed his mind and 
said it appeared my form got lost through the cracks.     

...And that whole Voucher process, talk about adding a few steps into 
the process!  Most people in our group skip the pain and just pay for
the course first and attach an original receipt to the form and 
get reimbursed directly.  It's much easier than keeping tabs on all
the steps required when using vouchers.

I agree that the online forms are hard to read.  The hardcopy forms 
are much better.

    Well, I've now had a chance to deal with the new external education
    process.  I cannot possibly express my impressions here - the moderator
    would immediately kick the note back for excessive profanity!
    
    I went to SF on training, on a VERY quick turnaround - I was told on
    Thursday that I needed to be in SF on Monday for a class.  I got the
    plane, class, and myself there without worrying about paperwork.  On
    returning I did the new form, had my manager sign it immediately and
    sent it in with all the supporting documentation I was told was
    necessary.  2 weeks later I got a voicemail telling me that there were
    problems with the form and that I needed to call them.  
    
    On doing so I was told that the course I took could not be paid for as
    CAREER RELATED, and that it should be JOB REQUIRED.  BUT, to do that I
    had to have a training plan in place...  So, I suggested that they
    simply fill in whatever boxes were needed TO GET ME BACK THE MONEY I'D
    ALREADY PUT OUT FOR A CLASS TO HELP DIGITAL!!!!!!!!  They COULDN'T. 
    BUT, they could FAX me the form, and I could change the boxes and fax
    it back.  So, they did, I did, and I did...  
    
    TODAY, I got a letter AUTHORIZING me to turn over the VOUCHER TO THE
    EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!  Now I have to take the NEW
    paperwork in to the customer site tomorrow and call them and find out
    WHERE THE MONEY IS NOW THAT I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR A MONTH!!!!!!
    
    Oh, yeah, the old process was "BROKEN"...  It actually paid for my
    training classes quickly, easily, and accurately...

    
    re: -1
    
     "without worrying about the paperwork"  the start of the problem.
    
     I've follwed the new external training process for over 6 months for
     my educational expenses.  I've never had a problem.  I just follow
     the required process.  Invoices for courses promptly, book
     invoices promptly, no problems what so ever.
    
    Mark

    re: .16
    
    The problem is with a system that can't handle unexpected training
    events.  Note that .15 was told on Thursday to be at class on Monday.
    Not much time to handle all the paperwork garbage.  Things like this
    happen all the time, and it's not usually the employee's fault, but
    it's the employee who often ends up with the short end of the stick.
    
    I was in a similar situation recently, but due to problems internal to
    Digital, I wasn't able to get the class pre-paid as required.  I could
    have gone anyway and paid for the course myself, but I didn't as I was
    afraid of getting stuck in a situation like .15 and the time has long
    passed when I would front Digital $3,000 - $4,000.  The end result, I
    have to wait a month for the training and I suspect it will negatively
    impact my performance on my project for the next month.
    
    Bob

    
    Since this subject has come up...
    
    FYI:
        
    Digital now considers taking the Microsoft Certification Exams as 
    "External Education Assistance".  
    
    Now, most of us do self study or take courses THROUGH Digital to 
    prepare for these exams (i.e., INTERNAL training).
    
    In the past, we took the exams (call the 800 number, give them a 
    credit card number, etc) and turned in the exam on a misc voucher.
    
    Now we fill out the External Education Assistance forms.  Since these
    forms are not designed to accommodate certification exams I suggest
    those submitting the forms to call the External Ed office for 
    their exact instructions on how to fill out the forms prior to 
    submitting them.  This could save you a bunch of time and energy.  
    
    Also, there is NO DIRECT DEPOSIT available.
    
    Mary Jo 
    Windows NT Support
    Colorado Springs Customer Support Center
    
    

    Actually, the discussion in .15 is WORSE!  Not only was it Thursday,
    but I'm FULL-TIME at a customer site 20+ miles from the local office
    with no reasonable way to saunter in during the day to fill out forms
    on a moments notice for classes taking place in 48 hours!
    
    BUT, on the other hand, another phone call this morning, and the 
    education people have agreed to cut a check to pay for the class.  

	I'm one of the last GEEP people.  I sent in the forms for the
	new process back in late August.  I finally received the
	vouchers to turn over to the school two weeks ago.  The school
	has been sending me nasty letters all along because my tuition
	went unpaid for 2 1/2 months.  This new process requires more
	paperwork, much more time, and now the school is trying to
	stick me with late fees.  Needless to say, I'm not impressed.
	The fact that there is no direct deposit is a pain as well.

	Hopefully, they'll get their act together.
	--Dave

    Re: Note 4157.20 by CADSYS::SHEPARD

�	This new process requires more
�	paperwork, much more time, and now the school is trying to
�	stick me with late fees.  Needless to say, I'm not impressed.
�	The fact that there is no direct deposit is a pain as well.
    
    Although my earlier note in this string indicates that I haven't had a
    problem with people implementing the new process, I must agree that it
    seems a lot more cumbersome. Consider how much paperwork must flow back
    and forth to get a course at my school (University of Dayton: ud) paid
    for:
    
    	me: register for course
    	ud: send me bill
    	me: send bill to external ed (ee) folks
    	ee: send me vouchers
    	me: send vouchers to ud
    	ud: send vouchers to ee
    	ee: pay ud
    	me: buy books
    	me: send receipt to ee folks
    	ee: send me check
    
    With this much traffic going on among this many players over the course
    of several weeks, something is bound to go wrong. I'm sure a more
    efficient system could be developed - if anyone cared about efficiency.
    
    	BD�

    I have had to register for external classes, the first one took
    a week, the next one 1/2 a day and the 3rd about 2 days....
    
    I call them (Amy is very helpful) and let them know the class is
    next week or whenever the date is, fax them the form signed by
    my manager and myself, within a few hours they have a PO number
    (which is all I need for some of the classes) or I ask them
    to fax me a copy of the letter & voucher for those classes that
    want a hardcopy and I get the voucher sent to me within 10 
    days.
    
    Victoria

        Well...  the saga continues!
    
    I called DEEP after receiving the voucher referred to in .19 and
    figured things were handled, and that the check was in the mail...  A
    week later I received an envelope - CONTAINING MY ORIGINAL FORM WITH
    THE ERRORS ON IT.  Once again it was back to the phone to find out wtf
    was happening...  Turns out it had crossed in the mail, or just been
    sent, or something, but that there was indeed a check winging its way
    slowly to me by USPS...
    
    Needless to say, I got the Digital Visa bill for $1300+, which was due
    and had to be paid - LONG - before I got the money from Digital...  
    
    Check arrived the other day...  10/10 form to DEEP, 11/13 check
    received...  
    
    In their defense, the DEEP people were consistently cooperative,
    helpful, and friendly.  It isn't a people problem.  It looks/sounds
    like a process problem again...  And this business of development plans
    and bouncing forms back and forth is counterproductive.  

    I just thought I'd point out that the company that provides this
    service does allow on-line mechanisms.  One of their other customers
    that they service in this manner is Chrysler Corp.  This manual process
    as I understand it was purposeful and specifically requested by
    Digital.
    
    Grahame

    re: .24
    
    See .5

    Well...  DEEP just keeps ROLLIN' along!
    
    I am scheduled for an Oracle class 1/8/96.  SO, just to make it AS EASY
    AS POSSIBLE TO GET MONEY I CALLED DEEP!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Yes, with form in HAND, I called and walked through EACH field with
    them to INSURE that all the necessary information was EXACTLY as
    required to meet their "GUIDELINES" as SPECIFIED BY DIGITAL! All was
    well.  Off the form went for signature.  And winging its way to DEEP. 
    Leaving ME with a sense of well-being that this time ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
    COULD GO WRONG!
    
    WRONG!  On Christmas Even, lo and behold, in my mailbox was - A LETTER
    CONTAINING MY REJECTED FORM!  Because I filled in the information for
    the class, and marked it as Career Related instead of Job Required -
    THIEY REJECTED IT AGAIN!  This would have been extremely annoying any
    time, but was ESPECIALLY INFURIATING since this was an area
    specifically discussed...  I SPECIFICALLY told them that it was not
    REQUIRED - Digital is not going to fire me if I don't get this
    training...  AND, that it is NOT a course for college credit...  
    
    Who the heck set up these  %^*&^%$# guidelines for DEEP?  I figure it
    isn't their fault - they're just a 3rd party slavishly following the
    mandates set forth by Digital.  BUT, we've taken a SIMPLE, EASY-TO-USE,
    WORKING system (fill out the form, get it signed, send it, money
    electronically shows up on account BEFORE the clas) and turned it into
    a NIGHTMARE!
    
    

    I've been screwed by them as well.  I'm just finishing up my last
    courses, and DEEP has been dragging their legs getting my tuition
    paid throughout the semester.  I originally submitted the form in
    August.  They supposedly finally sent out the check on 12/21/95.
    It took so long that I was not allowed to officially graduate 
    with the rest of the students in my class.  I'm extremely unhappy
    about the whole thing.  When I called them up to ask whether it had
    been paid yet, I complained twice about how long it has taken.  The
    person helping expressed some surprise at my statements but offered
    no other explanations or apologies.  I would very much like to know
    whom I can contact within Digital to complain about this newly
    outsourced service.  If anyone knows someone with any leverage, I
    would appreciate their email address.  Otherwise I'll just start at
    the top and work my way down.

    Cheers,
    --Dave

    
       I have not had any problems with the DEEP process since its
    inception.  I fill out the form completely, have it signed and
    mail it to the address indicated.  I always receive the voucher
    within a week of submission.
    
      As far as JOB REQUIRED, re-read the definition. It doesn't mean
    if you don't take it you are going to lose your job, it is very
    broad.
    
      Well, I hope my case is the rule, not the exception, but I find
    most people only post here if they've had problems. Anyone else
    out there find the process painless??
    
      Mark

    Well, I received some feedback regarding my note (-.2) and 
    why it took so long.  It seems that things are getting better
    and I got caught in a system that hadn't quite got the hang of
    it yet.  I still prefer the older, simpler process.  But I
    suppose I'd prefer if the company showed a continued profit
    instead.  The real problem with the new process is that it
    requires a mailing from DEEP twice and from the school once
    (the voucher, the bill, and the payment).  Each of the 
    involved parties only send things out once a week or less.
    So you seem to be guaranteed >3 weeks turn around regardless.
    For me it was 7 weeks not counting the problems people had
    handling my particular case.  

    Anyways, I'm impressed that someone responded to my note in
    this file and was willing to discuss it and offer assistance
    with my graduation problem.

    Cheers,
    --Dave