Conference 7.286::digital

    Downsizing should not be done just for the sake of it or because it's a
    fad. No employee of likes to be told to go out after having been recruited 
    after detailed screening. If a company feels it has surplus employees the 
    following steps can be taken :
    
    - Freeze recruitments & retrain employees to fill new positions
    - Branch out into a new business

 Ref: note 1

 I am about to write my Thesis on the effects of Downsizing within the 
Organization, do you happen to know how I could obtain a copy of the report 
produced bu CNN, 
 
 Rgds,
       Toby.

 
 NBC even!

    to .0 " I wonder how we would resppond to these questions by NBC"
    
    It would seem the answers would be:
    
    Increased profitability - absolutely yes
    
    Increased productivity - by definition almost, absolutely yes. (as the
    'same' amount of work [at least as measured by revenues] is being done
    by fewer folks, then productivity is up significantly
    
    Morale issues - probably also yes. But as I recall, morale was fairly
    lousy during the 6-8 quarters of progressively larger losses and
    our progressively larger difficulties in convincing potential customers
    that we would remain a viable supplier. 

    Does that mean that 
    
                    67% report improvement in profitability
    
    		and 
    
                    38% report improvement in productivity
    
    or would that be a play with numbers? 

re: .5

you may be right knowing that the news media only report news when it has a
negative slant.

    
    
    I believe that this report was in the Wall St. Journal this week - and
    NBC ran a 2 minute pick up piece.  The article ran July 5th - front
    page entitled: "Lean and Frail"
    
    Bill

 Ref:7 
 
 Thanks for the info. Bill 

 TC.  

    re.0 and 5
    
    Remember, 47.836% of all statistics are made up.

	Just who IS that 5th dentist? ("4 out of 5 dentists.....")

							mike

    RE: .9
    
    Was that the WSJ article that discussed "corporate anorexia"? I thought
    that was a nice turn of phrase.
    
    -Tom

  We still have a serious morale problem, and hiring more people to take the 
burden off those who are overworked only solves one part of the problem.
  The esprit de corps that we had 7 years ago has been lost, at least in the
groups that I'm familiar with. Maybe one reason why the new people feel OK about
Digital is that they never experienced the old Digital. Those of us who remember
the old Digital are still going through the grief process.
  There was a lot that was wrong with the old Digital, even when we were highly
profitable. For one thing, we were very inefficient and wasteful. And we threw
away money on extravagances which we should have known, even then, that we
couldn't afford. But we had an esprit de corps that few other high tech com-
panies in New England had. And I don't think we'll ever regain this.

    >But we had an esprit de corps that few other high tech com-
    >panies in New England had. And I don't think we'll ever regain this.
    
    This is probably a good thing too.  Don't forget not ALL of Digital is
    there.

re Note 3975.16 by CSEXP2::ANDREWS:

>     >But we had an esprit de corps that few other high tech com-
>     >panies in New England had. And I don't think we'll ever regain this.
>     
>     This is probably a good thing too.  Don't forget not ALL of Digital is
>     there.

        So becoming more typical of New England high-tech companies
        is a good thing?

        Bob

    Actually, I meant getting away from the whole 'New England is the center
    of the universe' thinking is a good thing.
    
    The phrase struck me as 'wrong'.  Digital is NOT a New England company. 
    It's a global company.  Attitudes like that make me (and I'm sure
    others) out here feel really appreciated.

    Re: .13
    
    	If only saying "it with enthusiasm" made it so! 
    
    	Your confidence in Bob Palmer is interesting, from my point of view
    I see very little to support it.

>It's hard to believe that people (internally) are still pessimistic about
>Digital and it's new direction...
    
    Scores of friends of mine have either been laid off, or quit in
    disgust -- their hard work and sacrifice went unacknowledged and
    unrewarded.  My own hard work and personal sacrifice remains
    unacknowledged and inrewarded, as does that of thousands of others.
    
    I haven't had a salary increase in over two years and there's no surety
    of one to come, ever --  my group just laid off 20% of its number, the
    stock price is still about 20% of its peak value, and much of the "new"
    direction I've seen is Digital selling itself off in bits and pieces.
    
    So, tell me how good I have it.

    The Eagle "flies over" every Thursday with your acknowledgement and
    reward.  If you expect more than a paycheck, your goals may be
    unrealistic.

re .21,

don't worry, Digital will kill off your enthusiasm soon enough.

Chris.

�                      <<< Note 3975.21 by DECWET::WHITE >>>
�                  -< Would you prefer pessimistic new hires? >-

�Tandy PC's, VAX, Ultrix, DECnet, DECstation, RDB, ALL-IN-ONE, etc. giving
�way to 
�
�The PCBU killer boxes, ALPHA, 64 bit Comercial UNIX w/CDE, TCP/IP,
�AlphaStation, Oracle VLM, etc, etc... 

Curious statement given Oracle now owns both Rdb and Oracle7, both of which 
support VLM :)

| All I can say is quit crying....it's time to heal wounds and embrace
| the turn around...we have a very important couple of quarters ahead of us
| and we need to be both optimistic and productive...

You have to recognize that this company is very big and the mood is highly
dependent upon where you are and in what organization you are located. Not
all of Digital has turned around yet and some parts of the company are still
having some serious problems. Let us hope that senior management will hurry
up with the changes, whatever they may be. That is the most effective way
to get the remaining people focused again.

>Per

    You're enthusiasm may be well-placed and localized. However, the change
    of mood between .21 and .23 is startling.
                                                                
    I'm glad to see enthusiastic people and healthy organizations elsewhere
    in Digital. They provided quite a number of people booted abruptly out
    of my organization last month, and those that left before that point,
    with continuing employment at Digital.
    
    But spare me the religion of optimism over far away events while the
    empty cubes are still echoing nearby. People don't simply turn on their
    enthusiasm like a light bulb, except under the influence of medication.

    There is an age old axiom that goes like this:
    
    			People expect to be paid for their efforts.
    			If you want loyalty, buy a dog.
    
    Mav

<<< Note 3975.27 by KOALA::ngneer.zko.dec.com::hamnqvist "Mailworks for UNIX" >>>

>You have to recognize that this company is very big and the mood is highly
>dependent upon where you are and in what organization you are located. Not
>all of Digital has turned around yet and some parts of the company are still
>having some serious problems. 

	Quite true. But I have to admit that it's feeling pretty good
	in Storage right now. But the road here was pretty brutal.

	Many of the other businesses are still going through the
	brutal part, but there IS a light at the end of this tunnel.

	A lot of the comments about this not being the DEC we used to
	know are absolutely correct. And thank God for that. The "old"
	DEC would have been in Chapter 7 by now.

	I joined the company in 1979. That year we had just broken the
	Billion dollar revenue barrier. Now we'll do what? $12 billion
	or so? Guess what the employee population was in 1979. That's
	right, just about 65k, right where we are today. If we still
	had 120+k people, we'd ALL be out of work.

	It's not easy being one of the survivors, but it's a lot easier
	than the alternative.

Jim

To DECWET::WHITE

Don't let anyone dampen your optimism!

	C'Ya,
	Wayne

    >			People expect to be paid for their efforts.
    >			If you want loyalty, buy a dog.
    
    This is a two-way street -- a company that shows no regard for its
    employees can expect nothing but a day's work from its employees --
    no "doing the right thing," no "going the extra mile."  

    
    waddayatalkinabout! I think, they think that everythings coming up
    roses! Look at all they've given...
           Digits have never had it so good lately.
           what, with the recent MCS SuccessSharing checks, matching 401K funds
           starting this month, new PC's at every turn...
    he said, biting hard on that thing called a tongue,trying to wake
    himself from this....

> I'm not going down this road...
>
> I won't post anymore on this, but I promise I will read each and every
> post that follows...

    Well read this one, don't opt out of this or any other thread
    because someone might not share your optimism. Optimism
    is the key to success, pessimism the key to failure. And if your
    house gets flooded and your first thought was "I wanted to renovate
    anyway" then all the better for you.
    
    re roelof
    

    ...and another supporter: I need all the optimism I can get. And I
    also think we have not looked so good in a long time. We seem to be
    doing exactly what I heard Palmer say 9 months ago. I would like
    to hear a FY96 outlook, but *I* would not give it till I had the
    CPA signature under the FY95 results. 
    
    BTW: You can't see the future by looking over your shoulder, or in the
    empty cubicle next to you.
    
    Al
    

    re.32
    
    Sometimes I wish we could get a day's work out of every employee
    rather than a lot of ineffective quasi-policy setting by everyone and
    his or her brother or sister who thinks "doing the right thing" means
    telling everyone else what to do while not putting in a day's work
    doing what is asked of him or her.  The same thing goes for "going the
    extra mile"; the direction is often ignored and each contributor goes
    his or her own extra mile in conflict with others.
    
    IMHO team players and good followers who put in effective work days doing
    what is asked of them are the ones who are doing the best jobs. 

    You're right, companero, you get too carried away.
    
    Technology ain't an end in itself, it's just a means.  Sure, it'd be
    nice to "blow those old VTs and Vaxen out the door" and bring in neat,
    new, fast stuff...but it ain't always justified.
    
    We've got everything in our department from the latest to the late, and
    it's all workin' its collective electronic tush off to make a buck. 
    I'm not trading out even our old vt220s as long as they fit the need. 
    Especially when they've been fully depreciated since Pee Wee Herman had
    pants.
    
    Sit back, relax, hit a Happy Hour...and quit readin' all those PC
    magazines, they're gonna rot your mind.  Some of us are "old Digital",
    but we're not dinosaurs.  And we got enough sense not to blow a few mil
    on new hardware who's biggest challenge is running multi-player doom
    across the net to "improve morale" and "hide empty cubes".
    
    								Tex

re .37

 I can't stay out of this one any longer....

>You're right of course it's just that this is almost like a religious
>topic for me...I have a real harsh attitude (kind of) on this subject,
>and if I get started, I'm sure to offend somebody...and I'm an opinionated
>SOB and it's not too cool for a new hire to start pissin' long time DECcies
>off in this forum...

  Funny how the long time DECcies become valuable when you have a customer
problem you can't begin to solve on your own.

>It's just that I am so adamant about the new Digital and and it's future and
>very scared of the old and it's mentality influencing and possibly letting
>a little air out of sweeping changes that have happened, and need to continue
>happening...

  Don't confuse the "old mentality" with the bloated bureaucracy that needed 
(still needs) to be cleared out.  While you are technically correct that 
employees don't have a right to expect much more than the check on Thursday, 
it's that "old mentality" that will go out of its way to help you solve issues.

>The changes are most importantly about penetrating new markets, and in many
>cases introducing Digital to a customer for the first time.  I look around
>internally and get a little scared to see VAX's...VT's and WFW/Pathworks-DECnet
>solutions...when we are pushing Digital UNIX, Multia's, hot new PC's and TCP/IP

 Don't let that $ prompt bite you :-)

  Seriously, you've got to be kidding.  While we might be pushing new solutions,
I've made a small fortune for this company as a consultant supporting VMS and 
Pathworks.  I've been on my current assignment for 2 and 1/2 years and the 
customer is about to give up it's schizophrenia and stop supporting an 
environment with Pathworks and Novell -- the winner is Pathworks.  I'm sure
us old time DECcies out here had something to do with that.  The servers
will probably expand to include NT as well as VMS.  Don't forget our existing
customers in your mad rush to the new ones (and don't forget which operating 
system is still largely responsible for your paycheck).

>I'm looking forward to a new Digital internally as well...we need to swap
>those VT's and 386's for the new stuff...badly.  The money is not there
>I know but there is a lot to be said for spending money on company morale,
>and IMHO this company needs to treat itself as it's own customer for a while
>and blow some outdated hardware out the door...maybe if we got to look
>at new multias or PC's on our desks...it might help block the view of
>the empty cubes...

  Well, now maybe you are beginning to get the picture.  While some people at
DEC are sharing in bonuses and getting new computers, entirely too many aren't
even getting raises (two years is obscene!).  My PSC has no equipment with a
hard drive big enough for me to train on V 5.x of Pathworks, no current PC, 
no new laptops, no Mac, no nothing.  I can take classes, but I can't use it!!

  On the other hand, at my customer site, I have an office instead of cube, a 
Quadra 650 with 32MB of memory and a 20 inch Sony monitor, a Compaq 486/66 with 
a 20 inch Sony monitor and a Mac Powerbook 540C with 24MB of memory and dial-
up capabilities using ARA.  Unfortunately, the customer isn't at the current
version of Pathworks, but that's about the only drawback.  They treat me 
extremely well on top of it -- you better believe I bend over backwards to 
help them and it ain't just 'cause it's my job.  Regardless of what a company
has a "right" to expect and what employees have a "right" to expect, mutual
respect and loyalty will lead to that extra mile and help give us our 
competitive edge.

  I hope you maintain your optimism, but tread lightly over people who are 
still waiting (years later) for a crummy hard drive and 4% raise.  Let's hear 
back from you (on this subject) next summer.

			SQ

    Hey, my reality isn't nearly as rosy as yours -- I wish it were, but
    it's not -- our group just took a 20% hit, other parts of the larger
    organization were decimated, there may be more layoffs in the offing,
    and the stress levels are at an all-time high, because fewer and fewer
    people are being asked to handle much more work for the same pay. 
    
    Morale is not good.  Telling me to cheer up will not improve my morale
    -- telling me to work harder would (if you were within reach) result in
    your lungs being ripped out.  I work telephone support, and handle
    between 300 - 400 customers per week.
    
    What would improve my morale?  The sense that my job isn't in constant
    jeopardy; a token of appreciation (a raise that is larger than the
    inflation rate); enough people to do the work at hand without grinding
    them into the ground in a few weeks.... little things.

    You know, Stephen, these wild mood swings (.37 to .40, for instance)
    are going to burn you out at some point.

>and if I get started, I'm sure to offend somebody...and I'm an opinionated
>SOB..
    
    actually everyone taking part in this thread pretty much fits
    that description (my good self excepted of course :-)

>I'm on some kind of medication (that seems to be the popular cutdown in this
>notes file)
    
    On the contrary, this is just a throw back to Digital's formative
    years during the wild '60s when being on something was synonymous
    for questing for true creativity. The noter is just admiring your
    original creativity in a somewhat roundabout way :-)

	To take some distance, here is a helpless Chinese proverb heard this
	morning and I liked very much:

	"One should avoid to live in changing times"  

	and hoping that's not true in this debate:

	"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

	Jo�l

    
.43> Why do these notes threads always have to get so personal?
    
    Look inward for the answer, grasshopper.
    
.23> ...the whining is getting real old...
    

    Re: .43
    
    I'm assuming that my reply .28 is where you inferred that someone
    belives you're on medication--that's the only response I've seen so far
    that even referred to it. That's not what I said, nor did I mean to
    imply that.
    
    There are two points to my replies. The first is that evangelical
    optimism based on events that have little to do with your day-to-day
    work has little effect on those who are currently in organizations
    that are "in crisis". I wouldn't normally have joined the group of
    those pointing this out to you but for the fact that you then turned
    upon us in your replies, twice now.
    
>I just need to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of sites still
>in the middle of restructuring...
    
    Yes, I suggest that you become more sensitive. There is no "TYPICAL DEC
    RESPONSE". There is very little that can be done from the trenches to
    "CHANGE" Digital in a global sense. Digital has always been the sum of
    its parts, but not all of those parts have been healthy. And as I said
    in .28, I'm glad that you're in an organization that supports your
    optimism. Heck, I even had a productive day yesterday and I may have
    one today.
    
    Re: .44
    
    I'm not opinionated, Roelof, I'm a cynic. Big difference.

    Nope, Lasko, I was the one that inferred.  Someone's sprinkled too much
    Prozac on this boy's Wheaties, and it's tellin'.  DecWet (somethin'
    appropriate here) ::White's up at 1:30 typin', which ain't a sign of a
    well-balanced life, for the most part.  And neither's his content.
    
>What were y'all thinking when the stock hit 18?
    
    What I was thinkin', pardner, was "buy", and that's what I did!  Sorry
    if I haven't evangelized about it enough for you.
    
>But I believe in Digital, and yes I DO believe in the pure technology that
>makes up our new product lines...it's a paradigm shift I very much want to
>be a part of.  Call me a fanatic if you will....call me moody...but I hope
    
    This ain't the "Church of the Latter Day Digital".  It exists whether
    you believe in it or not. :^]  And here's your wish.  "Fanatic. 
    Moody".
    
>I just need to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of sites still
>in the middle of restructuring...
    
    Lemme put a far more personal spin on this for you.  Say "there are
    still a lot of folks losing their jobs, uncertain of their futures,
    trying hard but scared".  "Sites being restructured" makes it sound
    like they're rearranging the cafeteria furniture.  We're faces, not
    cogs.
    
    Look, White, we're all doin' our best here and just about the last
    thing we need is an over-enthusiastic, new-hire, insomniac cheerleader
    with visions.  Please spare us and get on with your task of creating
    the "New Digital" for us, as you said.  Drop another note when you're
    done, OK?
    
    The reason I'm being so hard on you personally is that the memories of
    many, many friends that tried their damndest and gave their all being
    marched to the door is still fresh, the daily workload is horrendous, I
    found a pencil on the ground yesterday and got excited at having office
    supplies, our networks are failing constantly, I haven't had training
    in two years of any kind, and I'm bringin' in as much damn revenue and
    cuttin' expenses as much as I can, and I'm not alone in this.  Your
    contribution right now is wavin' your damned pom-poms in our faces and
    you're startled that you're getting backlash?
    
    								Tex

    
.49 :^)  ...I found a pencil on the ground yesterday and got excited at 
.49 :^)  having office supplies...
    

    Re: .49
    
    Maybe it wasn't me then. Doesn't matter, I stand by what I say.
    
    Regarding the timestamp...I believe DECWET:: is located on the west
    coast, so 10:30pm isn't too bad. Heck, I got a call from Microsoft last
    night at 6:30pm, Microsoft *Dublin*. ("Well, we're all pushing to get
    out Windows 95" was his reply.) I've been known to be up 'til 3:00
    local time to get stuff pushed to the west coast and answering
    questions coming in from Europe. ("We're C&P, we never sleep." was my
    reply.)
    
    Doesn't seem to matter anymore, since Mr. White has apparently picked
    up his ball and gone home.

    
    
    hey guys/gals...
    
    Having been w/ Digital over 7 yrs, I know what's it's like,
    but don't you think (some of) you have slammed DECWET::WHITE
    a little bit too harshly? Come on, you can inject reality (in all
    its various degrees) and "mentor" him, but to cut him down 
    personally as well is really uncalled for. Let's not transfer all
    our angst to one individual. His optimism is rather refreshing
    frankly!
    
    Sometimes we all get carried away, but still we are professionals,
    right? 
    
    DECWET::WHITE, please continue to participate, even after walking over
    live coals, as it is.
    

    .53 .....nicely said.  I agree.  

    Actually, given the minefield I and several others have walked through,
    I felt I was way too lenient on the lad.  I'd like to mentor him
    through his initiation process personally, to be truthful.  Here's how
    it goes in my group:
    
    1 - He gets a beeper and his home phone is published for everyone.  At
    any time that's necessary for anyone to contact him, they will.  When
    we're in the field and need help, time zones mean nothing.  If you
    don't feel like helping, then remember...your turn is coming up next.
    Your customers will also have your home number, as one of the ways we
    stay competitive is providing service above and beyond that of our
    competitors.  "Whatever it Takes".
    
    2 - He gets a 3100/30 w/ 16meg of memory from the trash pile.  There
    are no working tape drives left except on one person's desk.  Doesn't
    matter, as most of our clients are going to dat, and we don't have one
    of those.  I've got a buddy in another department that'll let me use
    his box, though.
    
    3 - He gets to spend 2 to 8 hrs/week on planes, 40 hrs at a client
    site, and 4 hours a night in a hotel room trying to do the rest of his
    job and catch up.  Unless he's here on-site, where he gets to live in a
    headset, have 20 sessions open, be dialed-in to three difference client
    sites, and write acrid, sarcastic notes like this when time permits.
    
    4 - No training.  He'll get the opportunity to learn DEC/EDI,
    FileBridge, VMS, VMS system management, Unix, C, Cobol, DecForms, RDB,
    ACAS and ObjectBroker, x400, TCP/IP, Unix, and a host of other
    products...on his own.
    
    5 - No office supplies.  He not only gets to set up his 3100 himself,
    that's going to be the only thing on his desk until the phone arrives a
    week or so later.
    
    6 - No social planning.  We take care of that.  He'll be called to work
    weekends or head out of town on a moment's notice.  Keep 5 clean shirts
    handy.
    
    If he survives (we have a 50% mortality rate), he then has the
    opportunity to see if he's short time.  We're now on our ninth boss and
    fifth organization in the past two + years, I believe, and our
    existance has been up in the air many times.
    
    On the other hand, if he can get his green behind down here and replace
    all our equipment, then I'm excited.  Otherwise, he can damn well put 
    the pom-poms down and face the reality many of the rest of us are
    facing.  Hell, it's not *my* damn fault everything we're forced to use
    should have been on the junk pile years ago.  But I'm workin' my butt
    off towards makin' us profitable again where maybe, someday, over the
    rainbow, I can trade my Rainbow in for an Alpha.
    
    								Tex

Hey, I'll have nothing bad said about the 3100 series!  You're right about
the training ("here's a manual and an installation tape.  It might be a
bit out of date though") and most of the other stuff though.

Chris.

    Re: .53
    
    No harsher than he has slammed (some of) us.
    
    His initial reply started off with incredulousness that there could be
    pessimistic and demoralized people still working at Digital. Two
    replies suggested that this wasn't the case and pointed out reasons why
    the dissenting responders were concerned. Mr. White's response was that
    "the whining is getting old", that we should get with the program (my
    idiom, not his) of optimism and that he wouldn't be participating
    further in the thread.
    
    Several replies later, he responds directly to the only supporting post
    and gives a long and fairly interesting substantiation of his position
    and beliefs but then turns around and harshly rebukes the next two
    dissenting responders with the line, "TYPICAL DEC RESPONSE", and again
    says he will not continue in this thread.
    
    I believe that this is a fair definition of "slamming", do you disagree?
    
    [This is ranging far from the original purpose of the thread but it does
     raise an interesting, if not new, issue of the way some NOTE at Digital, 
     if not WORK.]

.55 is so damn funny I just have to post...even though I did take my
pom pom's already and went home...

I was here last night at 10:30 because I was called in (yes, called in
on the cellular phone that comes with my job) to check out a VAX that
crashed...while I was here I tried to fix a Pathworks/decnet problem as
well...(ironically)

Number 4 reads like my resume...

I got a DECstation 5000/200, with and old VR297-DA monitor and a factory
graphics card....since then, I've managed to corale a VRT-19 and a PXG+
card....and I've maxed my memory to 124 megs...all without spending a
DIME, not even on SHIPPING...now all I need is an Ultrix version of CDE! (if it
ever will exist)...it's called making the most of a situation...and it's been
FUN!!  I bet I could do a thing or two with the hardware at your site...I'm
kind of famous for my resourcefullness.

Tex has ventured so far down the road of harshness, it's lost it's impact...
and all I can do is laugh!!

As a consultant prior to taking this position, I was directly involved in
several large DEC sales at Microsoft, and have made many friends within
Digital...I also worked closely with an Engineering team back east while
at Microsoft on an NT product as a Business Analyst...I have facilitated
conversations between key players at DEC and MS just by keeping my eyes and
ears open...

I was a contractor doing grunt work at a Demo Center for Digital 4 years ago,
and single handedly suggested that we shut the facility down since no one was
using it, and become a road show because I was tired of packing DECstations to
customer sites in the back of my Escort GT....saving DEC 500k a year in facility
costs on that one...(someone else actually pitched the idea to managment...even
though I authored the presentation)...

I learned Systems Management on a VAX...I used to hate UNIX with a passion,
but now I see the light...this is all part of the sweeping changes that
are effecting the entire industry...I'm just lucky to be young enough
(30) and nimble enough to embrace them...

Thanks for the good full belly laugh Tex...*wiping tears of laughter*

Re: .57

"TYPICAL DEC RESPONSE" is getting said a lot out there...and I mean
a lot...you think I slammed you guys?...you should here what people
say about Digital outside of DEC...it's not very nice.

    re: -1
    
    Tex,
    
    I thought better of you.
    
    Face the reality.  You've got a job in the nineties.  You're not a
    contractor (like me), so you don't have to constantly be looking for a
    new opportunity.  
    
    You haven't been laid off.  I love to hear all the people in this
    conference complain about how hard it is to watch their friends get
    laid off.  Trust me on this: It beats the S*** out of getting walked
    out the door.
    
    I see and read the quotes about the "good old days" when it was fun to
    be a Digit.  He**, it's easy to have fun when your products can command
    70% gross margins.  Thaty kind of money buys a lot of fun.  Those days
    are gone and will not come back.
    
    Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive here, but you're in a company with
    great products, positive momentum, a HUGE installed base, and
    inevitable problems.  You've got to work 16-18 hour days?  Tough. Join
    the real world.
    
    Flame out.
    
    gc 

    
    
    You are "us guys".
    

>    Doesn't seem to matter anymore, since Mr. White has apparently picked
>    up his ball and gone home.
    
    Actually he left the ball but he did take his notes with him...

>                   -< I have never once gotten personal... >-
    
    Sorry, we're outta merit badges for that one.
    
    For Chrissakes, saying "you should hear what they say outside of
    Digital".  Do tell.  The other 64,999 of us dinosaurs aren't let out much
    and we're pretty out of contact with things.  Just heard Gunsmoke got
    cancelled last week...that true?
    
>FUN!!  I bet I could do a thing or two with the hardware at your site...I'm
>kind of famous for my resourcefullness.
    		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    			(or something)
    			
    Look, DecWet, your Dale Carnegie course has worn off completely.  You
    think I'm sittin' here on my *ss whining waiting for someone to fix it
    for me?  I and the rest of my group have scraped, begged, borrowed,
    "appropriated", consolidated, fixed, traced, and actually soldered
    together every damn thing we possibly could to do our job and we're
    always scrounging for more.  I feel like a vulture everytime there's a
    layoff, scrounging through the recently deceased's past possessions,
    but it's how I got my stapler, disk drive, paper clip holder, and a ton
    of manuals, two 3100s, a tape drive, and 100 TK50 cassettes that are
    labelled RDB v3.0, VMS 4.0, etc.
    
    The one bright point in all this was you were gonna take your toys and
    go home.  Now even *that's* been stolen from me.  Sniff.  God, I wish I
    was young again, resourceful, had visions instead of flashbacks, wasn't
    a whiner, knew what was going on outside in the real world, and didn't
    think in "typical DEC responses".  
    
    But Thank the Good Lord Who, in His infinite wisdom, has given us YOU,
    DecWet!  We're *saved* and I can take down my Ken Olsen pin-up!  Pat
    yourself on the back with both arms, insteada just one.
    
    								Tex

    
    
    Tex, did you know they have color monitors now? :')
    
    
    It's good to see Mr. White's enthusiasm, but I wonder how long it will
    last.  That said, the people who have been around for a while still go
    above and beyond the call of duty.  The frustration (for me) is in the
    fact that we have been clamouring for years on things which will
    improve Digital's image immensely and we have been told it's coming but
    yet we sit with the same tools we had 10 years ago.  It is frustrating,
    but we don't let it discourage us.  We keep trying to do the right
    thing.  Yes, it has been painful seeing friends leave, but we keep on
    going.  Perhaps we can't have the everything's rosey attitude that some
    of the newer folks have, but dare I say it's understandable.
    
    Mike

I know this is slightly off topic but I have ask

 
 >   If he survives (we have a 50% mortality rate)

Please, I hope you mean jobs lost and not lives???
liesl

re .55

  Well said, Tex.  

  BTW, my 3100 has a TK50 drive you can borrow indefinitely!

			SQ

>> The one bright point in all this was you were gonna take your toys and
>> go home.  Now even *that's* been stolen from me.

Your damn right!! When I was a kid I kicked the neighborhood bully's @ss too!!

>> But Thank the Good Lord Who, in His infinite wisdom, has given us YOU,
>> DecWet!

Really!! I know some people like me who might be interested...err...got any
openings?

I'll tell you one thing, I sure the hell ain't gonna buckle under your
flaming...or sit here and take it in silence...go ahead, turn this thread
into a flaming session on the kid logging in from the DECwest Cluster, let's
ballon this thread onto a 600 entry post...or get it write-locked by the
moderator...I still ain't gonna get nasty...

 >   God, I wish I
 >   was young again, resourceful, had visions instead of flashbacks, wasn't
 >   a whiner, knew what was going on outside in the real world, and didn't
 >   think in "typical DEC responses".  
  
    And have all of us miss the Tex we have come to know and love? :^)

    
    Shouldn't that be tyranTosaurus Tex? :')
    

    I would address reply .59 but I suspect it might disappear, too.
    
    I wonder if I have the gist of the defense correctly, though: it's okay
    if I slam you, our customers do it, too.

OK.

Its time to cool down and take a moment from composing the next response
and actually look at what you guys are *saying*. 

First of all, DECWET is not a personal workstation.  It is a cluster used
by LOTS of folks, so please do not start identifying any of us as "Mr. DECWET".

Mr. White has a positive attitude, and is fighting to maintain that.  I think
that's great.  We need to spread that attitude.  Unfortunately, berating
folks who have had harsher experiences and have lost their optimism will
not help spread a positive attitude.

Tex described in .55 how life is for him.  That was not hyperbole.  I have
experienced the same conditions.  Fortunately for me, I am now in a much 
better situation, but I do recognize that there are lots of folks who aren't.

Laughing at someone because they are in a worse situation than yourself is
pretty childish. I'm glad that Mr. White is an accomplished scrounger.  I have
been as well in my day.  However, bear in mind that success in scrounging is
directly related to what is around for the picking.  DECwest, being an
engineering facility, has most of the engineers on Alphas.  We can't deliver
software otherwise.  The pickings for MIPS boxes (DECstation 5000, etc.) are
amazingly rich.  What kind of a system could you piece together in 
a 10-man field office in Nebraska with management unwilling to spring for 
anything new???

Kevin Farlee

I probably should not have deleted my posts...especially since I'm continuing
to post...sorry about that...I was pissed at Tex's very biting and cruel
remarks...

No...I think the DEC bashing sucks....that's why I'm here.  I want to be part
of the recovery and to participate in the Victory Party.

    Having been with Digital 19 years I can see why some folks are down on
    the company but I do object to folks stomping on everyone else that is
    starting to see light at the end of the tunnel.
    
    And I already know all of the ideas as to what that light might be ...
    
    Chuck
    

You should of heard the pitch I was given at my interview...

Funny, no one then mentioned that I'd be running Ultrix...but I have
an Alpha on the way...I'll put my DECstation up on DIAL for all
those scroungers out in field offices...and for your information,
the parts I scrounged did not all come from here...

If I remember correctly, I started posting in a positive fashion (I deleted
all the entries out of frustration...sorry)...and then got slammed for
it...

All I'm doing now is sticking up for my right to have my opinions...and
answering flame posts...

re .75

>If I remember correctly, I started posting in a positive fashion (I deleted
>all the entries out of frustration...sorry)...and then got slammed for
>it...

  My memory is a little different from yours; from my perspective the slamming
started after you told a few people to quit whining/crying -- not exactly 
positive, eh?  The earlier responses to your initial post simply tried to point
out that all is not healthy.  Someone else already mentioned that being 
insensitive to the mess some groups are in is likely to draw fire.  You lost 
potential supporters by being blind to it.

  I know I'm butchering this quote -- it's been too long since I was in school 
(or even saw the near side of 30), but:
"An optimist only looks up at the stars
A pessimist only sees the mud
A realist keeps one eye on the stars and the other on the mud."

  I'd say most of us fall into the realist category.  We know the company is
turning around but there's still a lot of !@#$ to clean up.  Unfortunately, 
we really fell off the edge in this thread.  Time to step back and take a 
deep breath.

			SQ

>
>>> But Thank the Good Lord Who, in His infinite wisdom, has given us YOU,
>>> DecWet!

    Is the good lord who some sort of follow-on to the grinch who
    stole christmas?

Decwet has been a node name (actually it's a cluster alias) since before
I got here...

But it did give Tex some pretty good material for a joke...the cluster members
are 'muck' and 'humid'...


;^)

    Re: .73
    
    	Face it you have acted like a child! From the "get-go", you took
    replies to your entries far too personal. Tex was "right-on" in his
    responses.
    
    	My response to your first posting was an interest in whether there 
    was any substance behind your enthusiasm. Believe it or not, the problem 
    that many of us have with Digital at this point in time is that we as a 
    company have not really changed. And don't mention a new organization 
    ( that's not a change); and please don't go on about our great new product
    line ( we have had great products for decades!)
                             

    
    Having sat back and watched dem balls-aflame course back and forth, I
    thought I'd comment on the original nature of this Note.
    
    Downsizing was done in a most disasterous way here, and in my book,
    little thought was given to it.  Whole units in CSC were TFSO'd till
    someone got the bright idea "maybe we shouldn't have let them ALL go."
    Some of the best and the brightest I know were axed, then proceeded out
    into the field, became consultants, and took business AWAY from
    Digital.
    
    Furthermore, we did a little calculation and figured out that the
    RDB sale to Oracle, based on the sale price, resulted in an average
    per-install-site yield of $3600.  Now Oracle wants $8000 for an RDB
    license. And all this so we could have ONE profitable quarter.
    
    And Himmler must be running the travel budget these days, cuz pickins
    are getting kind of SLIM.  Apparently we are welcome to run up our
    credit card bills on the road, then have some bean counter balk down
    the road that we spent $1.02 more on meals than was allowed for that
    city.
    
    Our new boss (8th or 9th in 2 years) sez that he wants revenues up
    20% this year, but don't expect any increase in funding. Does this seem
    reasonable to you.
    
    I'd be more optimistic if I could visually see that cost-cutting here
    was being delivered in a reasonable fashion.  It appears that the
    bottom line here is paramount, and the means to getting to the bottom
    line are not.  

what's childish is the openly aggresive cruelty and biting sarcastic
pirana (sp?) attacks that go on in notes...it's amazing what can get
said when it's not face to face...I'm certainly capable of it...but I
try to at least remain somewhat civil...

It actually looked like you wanted to get back to the subject of debate
there for a second...

But I don't buy it...I can see the hook sticking out of the bait...

They way I understood it the RDB sale was to raise cash for restructuring...

    
    <----- Still, consider the price-per-site...not exactly profitable
          IMHO.
           

Actually, I remember at the time of the sale I was calling the local
RDB guru about rumors of the sale, because I was working on a solution that 
used RDB as a back end...he kept vehemently denying the rumors right up
to about 5 minutes before it was announced...

I've also heard that Oracle really wants to kill RDB and/or aggresively migrate
RDB users to Oracle 7...maybe that explains the license price...is it a
lot higher that what we used to charge?  Anybody know how it compares to
Oracle 7 licensing?

But I really don't think the RDB sale had anything to do with anything other
that raising cash....it was definately a bold move and a bit of a shock...this
act started all kinds of rumors...including the one about Digital selling off
Alpha!!

The other (some would say main) reason for selling off Rdb was that we couldn't
get the independent DB vendors -- Oracle, Ingres, Sybase, Informix -- to pay
any attention to us as long as we were selling a competing system.  And too many
potential customers had already settled on one of those "other" DB systems, so
we had no chance to sell them hardware or OS.

My impression is that Rdb prices are now comparable to Oracle7, which is about
an order of magnitude larger than they used to be.

I'm still not sure what to think about the sale.

	-- Bill
	   Project leader for VAX Rdb/VMS V1

> But I don't buy it...I can see the hook sticking out of the bait...
    
    ...then several more DecWhite notes. :^]  Hell, I wish fishin' 
    at the lake was this easy.  This kid's a moth to a light bulb!
    
    Now that we've finished with DecWhite's justified paranoia (even
    paranoids have real enemies :^] )...
    
    The RDB sale *is* killing sales of our products.  I know the sale was
    to raise cash, but we're in a world of hurt because of it.  When
    Iacocca sold off the tank division, it was for the same reason. 
    Selling RDB has proven comparable to Chrysler selling its engine
    manufacturing division.
    
    								Tex

	Geeeez, enuf with the Monday Morning Quarterbacking! RDB is sold
	and gone. Get on with the future and stop dwelling on the past.

	That's one of the other problems with notes (besides the
	cynacism), dwelling on "the good old days". 

							mike

DecWhite....good one Tex!!

.85 makes a lot of sense to me...but it also fuels other rumors out there,
namely, that Digital is "becoming just another hardware vendor"...

I'm trying to build a dedicated POLYCENTER Suite of management tools server
which may also include LinkWorks and other software like NetView and Scheduler
and I can't seem to find a database that is supported as a back end across all
the tools we need...

Try getting a license for just one of the databases mentioned in .85 let alone
one for each POLYCENTER tool that is hard-coded to specific ones...they aren't
in VTX PAK...and they aren't free either...

    Aw, Mike, c'mon!  It ain't actually dwelling on "the good old days". 
    Our department's sales are gettin' totally slammed by this and people
    up in the stratosphere are workin' the issue with Oracle.  We're
    hopeful that we'll come to terms with them.  If not, it looks like
    we'll start using InforMix as our data machine.
    
    Now, I've gotta go change my Depends and grab a Geritol Seltzer...
    
    						Tex-A-Sauraus Wrecks

    .87
    
    Yes, mother.
    
    ;^)

�                      <<< Note 3975.84 by DECWET::WHITE >>>
�                -< I was kind of surprised at the sale too... >-

�Actually, I remember at the time of the sale I was calling the local
�RDB guru about rumors of the sale, because I was working on a solution that 
�used RDB as a back end...he kept vehemently denying the rumors right up
�to about 5 minutes before it was announced...

This has been hashed over thoroughly before.  We *had* no choice.  Digital 
employees involved with the sale (even involved being part of the sale) 
initially didn't know about the sale any more than any other employee.  
When we were informed of the sale, we had to first sign a non-disclosure 
stating that we would not discuss this information with anyone who had not 
also signed the non-disclosure.  There are many ramifications to announcing 
a sale such as this in a premature or uncontrolled manner.  (It's entirely 
possible that a "local guru" wouldn't have known about the sale until it 
was announced anyway.)

�I've also heard that Oracle really wants to kill RDB and/or aggresively migrate
�RDB users to Oracle 7...maybe that explains the license price...is it a
�lot higher that what we used to charge?  Anybody know how it compares to
�Oracle 7 licensing?

If Oracle wants to kill Rdb and/or migrate Rdb users to Oracle7 its 
certainly news to me (I work for Oracle Rdb engineering :).  Oracle has 
already had 2 waves of advertising for Rdb in additional to a promotion 
targeted at Sybase customers.

Oracle Rdb and Oracle7 pricing I believe is on par; that is, they are 
priced the same for equivalent user and system configurations.

I believe that it doesn't make good sense for Oracle to either kill Rdb off 
or migrate customers to Oracle7.  Rdb was a fairly significant expenditure 
involved a large customer base.  Oracle stands to gain more by enhancing 
Rdb (which we are) and continuing to support its sale and use.

Re: .80.

The sale of Rdb was the sale of an asset and did not count against product 
revenue.  It does show up in the bottom line, but as the sale of an asset 
(same as selling a building or selling disk and tape drive manufacturing 
lines :)

re: .92

>Oracle Rdb and Oracle7 pricing I believe is on par; that is, they are 
>priced the same for equivalent user and system configurations.

That is correct. For example, here are the prices for the base Oracle Rdb
and Oracle7 database media/doc packages with a "8 named-user" license:

   Oracle Rdb OpenVMS VAX  
	QB-477AA-WA  ORACLE RDB V/V 8NU/CDRM PKG             $  6400
   Oracle7 for OpenVMS VAX					
	QB-3WXAA-WA  ORACLE7 V/V 8NU/CDRM PKG            	  6,400

   Oracle Rdb for OpenVMS Alpha  
	QB-47TAA-WA  ORACLE RDB V/A 8NU/CDRM PKG             $  6400
   Oracle7 for OpenVMS Alpha					 
	QB-3YEAA-WA  ORACLE7 V/A 8NU/CDRM PKG            	  6,400

   Oracle Rdb for Digital UNIX/Alpha  
	QB-48BAA-WA  ORACLE RDB O/A 8NU/CDRM PKG             $  6400
   Oracle7 for Digital UNIX/Alpha					 
	QB-409AA-WA  ORACLE7 O/A 8NU/CDRM PKG            	  6,400

Not only are the Oracle Rdb prices on par with Oracle7 prices, but they are
now more in line with the relational database industry norm. Our installed
base was receiving a very good deal when Digital owned and priced Rdb - heck,
we even gave away the runtime version with the VMS operating system! 
Although in many ways a technically superior product, Rdb was priced lower 
than the competition in order to sell *Digital* hardware.

Of course, after the sale, our customers experienced sticker shock (and
rightly so) when they inquired about Oracle's new prices and T&C's. However, 
this is the reality of the RDBMS world. Call Sybase, C/A, Informix, etc... 
and you'll find that their prices are in the ballpark of Oracle's (although 
right now I'm sure they are willing to deal to tap into the Rdb installed 
base.). 

Some installed base customers are very upset at the new prices, and are
ready to jump ship to another database.  However, before doing so, they
should consider the "hidden" costs of such a migration:
 - cost of migrating data from Rdb to new database
 - cost of migrating applications to use new database
 - cost of re-training DBA and developers in use of new RDBMS
 - cost of new database administration tools
 - cost of new database development tools (such as forms, reports, and
   query tools)
 - cost of new hardware and/or networking if required to support the
   prerequisites of the new database (or to support the performance 
   requirements of the applications)

After such an analysis, the new prices might not look so bad...

One issue we need to resolve quickly is how to handle the Digital products
that layer on top of, and thus require, Rdb (such as StorageWorks Desktop 
Backup/Archiver and DEC/EDI). We need to provide some type of "right-to-use"
packaging or cost reduction for customers who only need Rdb for the purpose 
of running these products.

    -.1
    
    You have my vote on that last paragraph.  DEC/EDI specifically.

Just a stupid question, but why did we not raise the prices while we
owned it? Is it because we couldn't have gotten away with it but Oracle
can?

>Per

    More likely, it's because we're DEC and they're not.

�<<< Note 3975.96 by KOALA::ngneer.zko.dec.com::hamnqvist "Mailworks for UNIX" >>>
�                                   -< Duh? >-

�Just a stupid question, but why did we not raise the prices while we
�owned it? Is it because we couldn't have gotten away with it but Oracle
�can?

Not quite :)

Actually, Rdb was in the process of working on a price increase when the 
sale raised its head.  With the sale pending, not much reason for Digital 
to pursue an increase.

Even if prices had been increased, I doubt you'd have seen an equivalent 
increase.  Digital and Oracle have very different views about Rdb (as was 
pointed out in an earlier note).  Digital viewed Rdb as a means of 
leveraging hardware sales.  For many years, run-time was bundled with VMS 
(althought for the least few years it has not).  In many, many cases, Rdb 
was discounted as part of a system sale.

Oracle sees Rdb as an opportunity to generate revenue on its own merits, 
not as a means to leverage some other sale.  I believe that this why you 
see some of the differences in pricing.

Re the DEC/EDI etc issue, this is being worked (and, in the manner of large 
companies, I suspect not over night :).  For questions or concerns about 
issues such as this, contact Andy Schneider (ZEKE::ASCHNEIDER, don't have a 
DTN handy).  He works for Digital in the Oracle Rdb Program office and has
been involved with many of these issues since the sale was finalized.

Doggone it.

I missed some good ones here...