Conference 7.286::digital

    Just got one from PC Compleat.  See VTX EPP.  Better deal than COMPUSA!
    
    	Starion P90 (as advertised in the retail stores) $1691.00
    	w/o monitor
    
    	Good Luck

    If you can... run up to Merrimack, NH (MKO). Thursday (29 June) is the
    last day of a tent sale that's going on.  they had tons of PCs
    yesterday when I was there... all new.
    
    tony

        RE: -1

    	Why wasn't a sale like this advertised to the general DEC
    population?

    >	Why wasn't a sale like this advertised to the general DEC
    >population?
    
    Because the general DEC population couldn't care less of a sale somehwere
    in a remote corner of the U.S. of A. ;-)
    
    Anyway, this particular sale has been discussed in NOTED::IBMPC-95.
                                       
    ...petri

From:	GRANIT::GRANIT::MRGATE::"NEMTS::SALES::A1::CHOICE.READERS" 28-JUN-1995 14:39:45.07
To:	@Distribution_List
CC:	
Subj:	#16152-MKO PC SERVICenter -- Grand Re-Opening                          1

From:	NAME: Readers Choice                
	FUNC:                                 
	TEL:                                  <CHOICE.READERS AT A1 at SALES at AKO>
To:     See Below

From  MARK ROHAN, @MKO, DTN 264-1846

The Digital SERVICenter is located in Merrimack, New Hampshire (MKO1).  We
are the part of Multivendor Customer Services (MCS) and are the New England
District.

We are having a grand re-opening to promote new business into the center. 
This is a three day sale open to employees and the public.  The following
ad has been put in two local newspapers and flyers given to customers.

We may stay open one extra day, through Friday, June 30, 1995, if interest
dictates it.


				   DIGITAL    
				PC SERVICenter
				Merrimack, NH

		    Service - Sales - Support - Solutions

		   SERVICenter GRAND RE-OPENING PROMOTION
		   **************************************

	Sale starts June 27, 1995 through June 29, 1995, 9:00 am to 5:00 pm

			
			     ---FACTORY SPECIAL---
			      (Time Limited Offer)

			Manufacturers Discounted Models

Digital Venturis 486sx		Digital Venturis 486sx	     Digital HiNote
33mhz Desktop Computer		33mhz Desktop Computer       Notebook, 486sx
4mb Ram, 270 ide MB HD		8mb Ram, 540 ide MB HD	     33mhz notebook
14" Color Monitor/KB		14" Color Monitor/KB         monochrome, 4mb
DOS/Windows/Workgroups		DOS/Windows/Workgroups	     Ram, 170 MB HD
							     plus carrying case 

    $899.00			      $1,099.00			$1,299.00

			      MC, VISA, Checks Accepted


Distribution:
This message was delivered to you utilizing the Readers Choice delivery 
services.  You received this message because you are located in MKO, ZKO, 
NIO or NQO.  If you have questions regarding this message, please contact 
the author.



To Distribution List:

<removed>

> Digital Venturis 486sx     Digital Venturis 486sx     Digital HiNote
> 33mhz Desktop Computer     33mhz Desktop Computer     Notebook, 486sx
> 4mb Ram, 270 ide MB HD     8mb Ram, 540 ide MB HD     33mhz notebook
> 14" Color Monitor/KB       14" Color Monitor/KB       monochrome, 4mb
> DOS/Windows/Workgroups     DOS/Windows/Workgroups     Ram, 170 MB HD
>                                                       plus carrying case 
>
>       $899.00                     $1,099.00              $1,299.00


  Isn't a 486SX/33 kinda old, slow, technology? (I mean, I won't make
  a pun on the name Venturis, but you get my drift.)

                                   Atlant

    it's the bottom of the line in the March 1995 catalog.  List price for
    the first config. was $1,378.
    
    Mark

None of the systems being sold at this sale are current models, as far
as I can tell.

				Steve

>  Isn't a 486SX/33 kinda old, slow, technology? (I mean, I won't make

Some folks just don't need more than a 486sx/33.  PCs are getting like video 
cameras, instead of dropping prices, they just add features. If cpu speed is
not all that important, the $919 I paid (no monitor needed) for a 486 with 8MB
RAM and 540HD and 3 year warranty is absolutely the best price I have been able 
to find. 

Dave (who's 72 year old Mom is about to get an upgrade to her 286)

I know I sure felt a 486/33 with 8Meg would last me awhile until I installed
Windows95 on it.  Took multiple minutes just to boot! 

-mark

    I just bought a Digital PC in May through EPP.  I bought the 
    Venturis 466 w/8RM and 540 HD w/CD ROM, FAX Modem, Answer machine,
    Mic, and Printer.  I LOVE it.  Paid $2400.  and I feel it was well
    worth it.  Call me (DTN 244-6612) and I'll give you the details
    on ordering etc.
    
    Colleen

    I didn't realize that PC-Compleat sold the Starion Line of Digital PC's
    Is it reaaly true?
    
    Regards
    

Yes, it is true.

	Steve

    re: Note 3966.13 by GRANPA::LSEARS 

>    I didn't realize that PC-Compleat sold the Starion Line of Digital PC's
>    Is it reaaly true?
    
    I called them up, the discount is better than 10%. 
    
    Starion 700i [90mhz Pentium]  $1691.    (CompUSA 1899.)
    Starion 900i [100mhz Pentium] $2042.    (CompUSA 2299.)
    
    -Bruce
    

    re -.1
    2042 ?+?+?+ ouch... mmmooonn mon mon monitor too?
    
    I need to go revisit this whole string about EPP, PC-Compleat and
    whatever, CompUSA. So what is the *best* deal for an employee. Do I
    need to shop around?
    
    I wish life were easier. All I want is a digital PeeCee.
    
    -Mike Z.

I think those prices exclude the monitor.

You'll generally do better through EPP than walking into CompUSA if the
same product is available.

				Steve

    If I have read the Microsoft information correctly, you will not be
    able to run Windows95 on a PC with an SX processor, eliminating the
    special offer PCs from the Win95 list.
    
    Maurice

    Maurice...
    You are incorrect about not being able to run WIN95 on a 386SX.  I
    realize there are conflicting articles, expecially dating back several
    months, and there are some models of PC (notably te DECpc 320p) which
    really have to be kluged to get WIN95 to run on, but the official
    minimimum hardware requirement is 386sx.  I know of many folk who have
    WIN95 installed on a 386sx.
    
    Regards,
    
    tony

A 486SX (which is what was being offered) will run Win95.  The SX means that
the math processor is disabled.

				Steve

    for what it's worth, just yesterday I called the new EPP number to
    inquire about one of our printers.  They were terrific.  Got an
    enthusiastic and knowledgable rep, price was great too. (in fact REAL
    great).
    
    This is not your dad's EPP  anymore.
    
    Ken B.
    Seattle

    Sadly I come to confess my sins of miserly greed and pinching the last 
    penny out of my PC budget...
    
    I wanted to buy a DEC PC but couldn't afford it...
    
    I looked at Sams
    I looked at COMPUSA
    I looked at EPP
    
    Then I went to my trusty computer shopper and looked for a bargin.
    
    Found a build shop in California and bought:
    
    Midsized tower 250watt power supply
    80486/80Mhz AMD processor with 8Mbytes of memory
    3PCI slot motherboard with 6EISA slots
    Trident Graphics card with 1mbyte of memory
    730Mbyte hard drive
    quad-speed CDrom
    Soundblaster compatible multi-media card
    2 ser/1 par/1 game ports
    Windows 3.11 (and all distributions) (and preloaded)
    
    $1350 delivered (via UPS)
    
    And I went to a flea market and added:
    
    14.4 FAX/modem $60.00
    5 1/2" floppy  $15.00
    Ethernet Card  $30.00 (new Kingston)
    
    Total cost for a machine that's faster than a 60Mhz pentium and 
    is PCI based:
    
    $1455.00  
    
    
    Parts is parts today folks... DEC PCs and EPP are expensive these days 
    and I bought this one for home and my kids.
    
    3 year warrentee?  forget about it... when's the last time you used 
    your warrentee on a TV set after the first 90 days... or any consumer 
    electronics.  I'll take my chances -- and replace the parts at market
    costs if they break 2 years from now... Saw a connor 1 Gig disk drive
    for $320 the other day...
    
    I wish I Could have bought Digital but thre was just too much
    difference in the price.
    
    Sorry PC by DEC...
    
    John Wisniewski
    
    

    What's the turn-around time on mail order through PC Compleat? Two
    weeks? We saw the Starions at Lechmere and probably would've bought one
    if it weren't for their being on backorder. Seems that we can't keep
    Lechmere stocked with them (good news). But when we do send then, we
    send four or five *per store*. The current rainchecks at the Nashua
    store are from early June. (Bad, bad news.)

    Lisa

RE: .22

	You paid too much for the modem John.

							mike

re: Note 3966.23 by EPS::RODERICK
    
> the laws of supply and demand
    
    
    The person I spoke with at PCs Compleat last week said they had the
    500i and 700i in stock. However a friend has been waiting three weeks
    for CompUSA to get him a 700i.
    
    -Bruce
    

    I purchased a 500i - got it in 3 days from Fry's Electronics in California. 
    $1699. I was glad I could finally afford to buy a DEC PC and it is a
    well built PC.  Used our support line once to assist in a driver
    problem and it was great.  So far I am a happy customer.
    
    

    RE: .22
    
    It looks like you got a good deal.  On the other hand,
    the $300 difference between the platform you bought and the
    EPP/PC-compleat price for the Starion 700i is not bad at all
    for an extra 300 MB of disk and a faster processor (90 MHz
    Pentium).
    
    Jim
    

>>>    Total cost for a machine that's faster than a 60Mhz pentium....

Although a 80Mhz AMD 486 has a faster clock speed than a 60Mhz Pentium, the 
Pentium system will probably have better performance.  CLOCK SPEED ALONE 
DOES NOT INDICATE PERFORMANCE!  In the same way, you cannot assume that a
V8 automobile is faster than a V6.


							-Paul

    The PCI/EISA bridge further kills performance for that poor AMD486;
    on the other hand, you get to use any legacy EISA cards you might
    have lying around.

      RE: .22 Not a bad deal, if it doesn't break. If it does, you might
    regret the purchase. Sometimes the lowest price isn't the lowest price!
      Only time will tell.
    

    Anyone wanting to buy a DEC 486 will soon be disappointed anyway.
    According to an announcement I saw yesterday, we're dropping out of the
    486 market to concentrate on pentiums. It's not a decision I agree
    with, but there. Oh, and it's applicable in Europe first, but will be
    applied in the US soon.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Re .25

  I tried to get the 700i from a big COMPuter store in the USA and the 
salesman said it was DISCONTINUED, and tried to get me to buy an NEC 
instead.  I can't find a 700i at CompUSA, PCComplet, or Lechmere.  What
gives?  The Starion 900i is just as rare.

    
    I believe the 600i is the same as the 700i,
    and they can still be found at SAM's Clubs.
    
    I know that the new Starion line is due in
    August some time. Maybe that is what is going
    on ? Who knows ?
    
    Rick (who has a 600i)

    

>RE: .22

>	You paid too much for the modem John.

>							mike
    
    
    Yeah I know but it was a friend's card table... The dealer had em
    for $39.00 each;-)
    
    John W.

    
    >It looks like you got a good deal.  On the other hand,
    >the $300 difference between the platform you bought and the
    >EPP/PC-compleat price for the Starion 700i is not bad at all
    >for an extra 300 MB of disk and a faster processor (90 MHz
    >Pentium).
    
    >Jim
    
    for $260 I can add another 850Mbyte Connor Hard drive...
    
    I'm already running like a 60Mhz pentium and there will always be
    faster machines... 
    
    The point of the note:  You can put togeather a very good machine 
    much less than DEC's employee discount.
    
    Bitter about it... Yes.. I'll not pay a premium for the Digital logo
    for a commodity item.  Many of our customers feel the same way and 
    deal with less of a discount then we get.
    
    just my 5 1/2 cents...(2 cents plus inflation)
    
    
    John W.
    

    > <<< Note 3966.30 by DABEAN::REAUME "It's what's happening ...again" >>>

    >  RE: .22 Not a bad deal, if it doesn't break. If it does, you might
    >regret the purchase. Sometimes the lowest price isn't the lowest price!
    >  Only time will tell.
    
    We have a chicken processor down in arkansas who talks about their
    business:
    
    Parts is Parts when you talk about chicken nuggets...
    
    What can break?  PCs are very rugged devices as home appliances go
    these days!  With no one dropping them off a table after the burn in
    period a PC, TV, Stereo, should run for years without a problem.
    
    And ask the FS people what breaks?  Fans, Disk Drives, Power
    supplies...  Instead of a maint contract I'll save my money and 
    buy a replacement part (at a better market price than today) next year
    or next month....
    
    We don't offer 3 year warrentees on the 2100s because we are betting
    that they break.  Electronics continue to get better... even OEM parts
    for PCs.  Ever wonder why we don't quote mean time between failure 
    times except under PID with customers?
    
    I shopped lowest price for a TV (new) at 2 years plus it's doing fine.
    
    Went to a Pawn shop and bought a 200 watt pioneer tuner/amp used because
    if it's working the electronics don't break. at 1 year it still cranks
    out great sound.
    
    The PC Build shop gave me a year on the parts... if they break I'll send 
    the part back but I'm not counting on using even that safety net... 
    
    Drop them, pour water on them, plug them in wrong... yeah they stop
    working.. but if I have an accident with equipment, I'll replace it
    at market rates at the time I need it.
    
    I'll take my chances.. I know how to use a screwdriver;-)

    RE: .35
    
    And MY only point was that I don't believe you got a better deal --
    just a cheaper one.  The Starion 700i is probably 50% faster and
    has a 40% bigger disk.  In addition, it comes with speakers (maybe
    yours did too) and (apparently) more software.  I consider it
    a very good deal (even without the DEC discount).
    
    It's too bad for you that the Starion line no longer includes
    an equally good deal on a 486 system.  
    
    Jim

    Let me join the Jim and John show.
    
    I find myself virtually surrounded by PCs here in my cube.  They all
    have the DEC logo (LPvs and LPv+ (several of them)).  They are not bug
    free.  With enough downloads fromm our FTP site I can get them to run
    pretty well but it IS a hassle.  AT home I have a DECpc 450dx2 from our
    first big attempt at EPP PC deals.  It works fine but I let the kids
    use it.  Since that time I have collected 5 PCs of various manufactures
    at home and have been running them for a couple of years with NO
    failures.  (I did blow a keyboard fuse on my IBM alaris motherboard,
    though, that took me a few hours to find and fix (for $.35))
    
    Both of my brothers know I work for DEC and asked about our internal
    purchase programs.  I give them the prices for what they ask for, if I
    can get a price quote, and leave the choice up to them.  Neither of
    them owns a DEC machine to date.  My brother-in-law asked about a
    Pentium based something or other this Spring.  I looked up the
    performance specs and the price (from EPP even) and he now has a DELL.  
    
    If you really have a product that you really want to sell, and you have
    a lot of employees, each of whom has hundreds of people they meet every
    year, you could get a lot of sales from referrals alone if your
    employees were happy with the DEC PC they had at home.
    
    This past week I was one of the hosts fo the United States Orienteering
    Federation's National Convention.  Not a big sport but 350 people from
    all over the world were here in Colorado for a week praying that they
    could actually see their results.  If I could have dragged out the
    HiNote Ultra, that I can't personally justify with my own budget, and a
    good DEC laser printer, instead of the crap that the results crew
    brought along, I probably could have impressed some of these people
    with our products.  Orienteering, as a sport, is a heavy user of
    on-line CAD cartography these days.  Computer aided publishing and
    such, too.  Everybody wants to computerize their clue sheet printing,
    results, start lists.  
    
    The World Orienteering Championships were held in 1993 near West Point,
    NY.  Were there anY DEC computers on site?  No.  Who did the computers? 
    IBM did.  Shipped in a couple of servers and a dozen PCs from Armonk. 
    Software specialists from Finland and Sweden specifically to get people
    experienced in this sport.  The registration for this event was done on
    DEC machines and brought in on diskettes.  A small gap in the process
    existed between the registration and the results server.  The patch was
    coded on a DEC maschine and shipped in on a diskette.
    
    I have college age kids.  How many contacts would they make if the
    laptops they crave, but I can't afford, were DEC?  Heck, come to think
    of it, I'm a college student, myself.  
    "Hey, Bob, I'm thinking about a laptop.  Isn't that a HiNote you have
    there?"  Word of mouth may not be the best advertising but it's gotta
    be cheap.
     
    In (if I make it) 6 months I will have 20 years with the company.  As
    you can easily tell from the length of this letter I can talk a blue
    streak.  If you want me to present our products to my friends and
    acquaintances, put one of these gadgets withing my reach.  I imagine
    every single individual in this company has experiences like mine. 
    Parents and siblings, PTA members, club members that we come in regular
    contact with.  I think it is short-sighted to not go all out to get our
    best products into the hands of our employees.  If you want me to buy
    one I have to get a deal that my wife approves of.  It has to be a
    great deal.  So far...it is not.
    
     

    .38
    
    ditto

    
     I too ordered a 700i from PC Compleat last week for ~$300 less than
     COMPUSA's price (tax included). The only issue I have is NOT knowing 
     how long I'm going to have to wait for it to 'come in'. The rep. at PC 
     Compleat was very friendly and knowledgeable (ex-DEC employee). She 
     told me that they can't get a ship date from DEC, which does not 
     surprise me at all. She said she heard nothing about that model being
     discontinued like COMPUSA did. What gives here?
    
     She also told me that I could pick it up in Merrimack to avoid the
     Ma. 5% sales tax and only pay an ~$20 shipping fee. But.....since I
     live in Marlboro, I opted to pay the tax instead (and no shipping fee)
     and pick it up 2 minutes from my house.
    

>                         She said she heard nothing about that model being
>     discontinued like COMPUSA did. What gives here?

I think the CompUSA salesbeing was making it up.

    re: .38
    
    Amen, I've been saying the same thing for years. The situation does
    improve, however slowly, but I've always said, Let me buy (x) products
    per year, AT THE COST OF THE IRON (Ok, add 20% to that) and within a
    year or two, there will be a whole lot more Digital image out there in
    user land.
    
    My next door neighbor bought a DELL, because he percieved more value
    for the bucks. I had to agree with him, at the time.
    
    .mike.

    My children came home asking us to buy an Apple, and they didn't mean
    the kind you get in the produce department. The school system is
    heavily equiped with Apples. Talk about brand recognition at an early
    age.  By the way, we have a DEC PC in the house and they use it.
    
    Fran
    

I have been told by the PCCOMPLET sales rep that they have no more
Starion 700i/900i systems, and that Digital is no longer supplying them!
This is after DEC had provided delivery dates for the boxes.  In the mean
time DEC has no comparable multi media system offering in the same price
range.  Its too bad because people are not going to wait for DEC to get 
around to shipping the new Starion line.  I've cancelled my order, and 
am currently looking at other vendors.

    >              <<< Note 3966.37 by GANTRY::ALLBERY "Jim" >>>
    >                     -< 50% faster is 50% faster >-

    >RE: .35
    
    >And MY only point was that I don't believe you got a better deal --
    >just a cheaper one.  The Starion 700i is probably 50% faster and
    >has a 40% bigger disk.  In addition, it comes with speakers (maybe
    >yours did too) and (apparently) more software.  I consider it
    >a very good deal (even without the DEC discount).
    
    That's your opinion... A Lexus owner would say that my ford Escort
    (which also came with speakers like my PC) wasn't as fast, neat or 
    safe... I say that I bought a loaded Escort that drives me down the 
    road for $15,000 less which accomplishes the same task as the Lexus.
    
    Software?  I'm in the business... I can buy Microsoft product from 
    Digital at a substantial discount.  I can buy 10-12 gigabytes of 
    freeware/shareware cds for $60...  I don't need a package I need a
    good price point to get me excited.  bundling is for those folks 
    who have to buy at best buys.. Digital Employees (working for a 
    manufacturer) should have a better deal than that.
    
    >It's too bad for you that the Starion line no longer includes
    >an equally good deal on a 486 system.  
    
    They were expensive when I was pricing them too... Everyone want's 
    something new and fast I want to buy something that just barely out
    of vogue...
    
    And save 30%...
    
    
    John Wisniewski...
    
    

    Gee, ya mean one size DOESN'T fit all???   :-)
    
    -Mark

    I just helped my sister buy a PC... unfortunatly (again) Digital really
    wasn't in the running.  We ended up with a Gateway Family PC.  The
    hardware alone was competatively priced ($1649 for DX2/66, 8M, 540M HD,
    4X CD Rom, 14" monitor, Soundcard, speakers, etc.), but the kicker was
    the amazing amount of software that came with it.  MS Bookshelf '95, MS
    Encarta '95, MS Publisher, MS Bob (ick!), MS Cinemania, MS Wine, MS
    Composers Collection, etc.. etc... etc...  She was going to get
    Cinemanaia, Bookshelf, and Encarta anyway.  Not a bad PC for the bucks.
    
    Hmph.  I would have LOVED to have bought a Digital PC _THIS_ time (I
    also have a Gateway), but we (nor anyone else) had anything to compare.
    
    We sell to a different target audience, I suppose.  It doesn't appear 
    to me that we're really trying to break into the home PC market.
    
    Later...
    Steve
    

RE: Home PC Market

	No, we aren't. We sell to corporate customers and with the
	Starion line, the Small Office/Home Office (SOHO) market, 
	which is different than the home PC (Packard Bell, Gateway, et al)

						mike

    re: .47, et al. (and echoing .48)
    
>    I just helped my sister buy a PC... unfortunatly (again) Digital really
>    wasn't in the running.
    
    Nope, that's just not Digital's market.  Now, if you helped your
    sister's corporation buy 3000 PCs and Digital really wasn't in the
    running, we'd have cause for concern.  But I bet this theoretical
    customer wouldn't even consider getting 3000 PCs from Gateway.
    
    If you were a blue-collar worker at Rolls Royce, or Mercedes, or
    even Cadillac, you wouldn't say "I just helped my sister buy a Ford
    Escort... unfortunately {Rolls | Merc | Caddy} wasn't in the running.
    
    Or maybe rather than Rolls Royce, consider the fleet division of a
    Kenworth truck factory...
    
    -Mark

    We do have a box coming up in the midrange price band that will
    probably appeal more to the "Technodweeb" market (Dell, Gateway,
    Micron, ...) than anything previous; but still nothing for the
    true "Home/Family" (non-SOHO) market tho.  The latter has razor
    thin margins and would be difficult to succeed in.  .02 Kratz

    re .49
    
    Gee, I've known _SEVERAL_ customers (including parts of the US
    government) over the years that have ordered multiple hundreds of 
    machines from Gateway.
    
    It is not in our best interest to dismiss our competition simply
    because we choose to believe that we are better suited for certain
    customers.
    
    -- Russ

re Note 3966.51 by NEWVAX::PAVLICEK:

>     re .49
>     
>     Gee, I've known _SEVERAL_ customers (including parts of the US
>     government) over the years that have ordered multiple hundreds of 
>     machines from Gateway.
>     
>     It is not in our best interest to dismiss our competition simply
>     because we choose to believe that we are better suited for certain
>     customers.
  
        Not to mention that this is essentially the same attitude --
        that there is a line in the market below which we cannot
        and/or will not go, even though it is a big and growing part
        of the total computer market -- that led to much of Digital's
        troubles during the past decade (certainly not the only one,
        of course).

        They are computers, they work like computers, and they do
        essentially all the things our computers do with the
        exception of some (rather small) time-lag in speed and
        capacity.

        Bob

>        Not to mention that this is essentially the same attitude --
>        that there is a line in the market below which we cannot
>        and/or will not go, 
    
    I think the line is real -- but it has more to do with marketing
    and sales and support than it does with technology.  The assertions
    that the parts don't differ much is true as far as I can see.
    
>     It is not in our best interest to dismiss our competition simply
>     because we choose to believe that we are better suited for certain
>     customers.
    
    I'm far removed from marketing and not schooled in it, but I think it's
    legitimate to identify market niches that have different
    characteristics with regard to volume, handholding, turnkey vs. rugged
    individual, etc. -- and to decide to specialize in certain niches.  In
    a market this big, nobody is all things to all people, and nobody can
    be.
    
    It appears from observed behavior that Digital has chosen to stay out
    of the single-unit home computer market, and their pricing reflects
    that.  We may wish they were a presence there, since that's where most
    of us are as customers, but that doesn/t seem to be their chosen
    market.  They "can't" compete there because they've chosen *not* to
    compete there, as far as I can tell -- presumably for reasons that can
    be justified in marketing principles.  We all hope they're doing the
    right thing.
    
    -Mark

>     Gee, I've known _SEVERAL_ customers (including parts of the US
>     government) over the years that have ordered multiple hundreds of 
>     machines from Gateway.
    
    In the time scale of the PC market, it seems like nothing more than
    nine months old matters.  "Over the years" Digital was not a presence
    in this market.  Would those same customers look to Gateway for
    hundreds of machines today?
    
    I'm not denying the possibility, because I don't know the answer.  But
    I do believe that behavior 2-3 years ago in the PC world doesn't mean
    much today.
    
    -Mark

    Great logical discussion.  I'm a person, an individual.  I must be
    looking for a computer for my home PC.  We are a big company who
    specializes in corporate accounts - that is what our machines are
    designed for and that's who we sell to.  Why do we put sound cards and
    speakers on them?  Computer city express (Tandy) has a corporate sales
    desk/counter.  Go down there today and see if these are 'techno dweebs'
    with their notepads scouting for the best price on an individual unit
    or are they small business owners. (answer:EVERYBODY in the store from
    door opening to 5 p.m. is a small business owner).
    
    We have a line beneath which we will not cross.  That makes sense. 
    Nobody wants to lose money on these individual units while trying to 
    sell several million of them.  But are we STILL trying to leverage VAX
    and ALPHA sales with a loss leader while pricing ourselves out of the
    market?
    
    The PCs I have at home share their lives in pursuit of my wife's small
    business, my occasional work-at-home projects and general purpose home
    foolishness.  The one I sold to a friend of mine is used to keep
    payroll records and tax info for his Dental Practice.  There are a lot
    of professionals who are buying for small businesses through retail
    outlets.  I think we are missing the boat.

    
    	re:-1
    
    	Missing the boat is a Digital institutionalize behavior. I'm always
    amazed at the inability of senior management to recognize that
    risk-taking is a fundamental aspect of *good* business practices.
    
    	Even sadder is the standalone fact that sales in this company is
    regarded as a necessary evil, instead of a driving force for gaining
    market share.
    
    	C'est la vie...
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Can't resist adding a couple of pennies worth on this one...
    
    I'm sitting at a site that just bought the aformentioned "several
    hundred" PC's, yup, Gateways. Yes, they have CD's and speakers (for
    what, I haven't a clue) and they are rolling them out big time.
    
    Their goal is to replace the VAX's with them. Why not DECPC's? "Too
    Expensive" was the reply. They did put in 3 larger DECPC's for the
    server's, and when I saw the bill, I knew why they didn't buy any more
    of ours. We are expensive, and the "value added" is not percieved.
    
    .mike.
    (Trying to do more with less, faster.)

    re: why do they put sound cards & speakers in 'em?
    
    Because executives like to play, too?  Because some productivity -- and
    especially instructional -- software uses audio?  Because they can get
    the customers to buy it and thus make a few bucks more?  What is the
    point of asking about sound & speakers?
    
    re: Everybody at Computer City is a small business owner
    
    Not me.  Been there a bunch, dropped some bucks, saw several people
    that looked like me.
    
    Of course, many probably were business persons.  It's the
    "all-or-nothing"ness of these assertions that I'm pushing back on.
    The PC market is just too complicated to fit on the back of a postage
    stamp (or other suitable metaphor for oversimplification).
    
    Just my 32 cents worth (price of US first class stamp),
    Mark

    ...and there were some typos, too...

I thought we were going for the "service differentiation" in the PC
market? If that's true then small (one person one pc) sales will 
kill us. I'm sure many of you have seen the PC support line horror
stories that have made the net rounds. How the "free" support lines
are on hold for hours and you can get through by paying. Or the
questions so basic that they would never have filtered through a
corporate helpline to reach us. We are talking to several PC vendors
about helping with their support because they can't handle it
anymore. liesl

    I thought a coworker had a great idea about Digital employees
    purchasing Digital PCs ... 
    
    Cost centers are charged 40percent (or was it 60percent?) of regular 
    price when purchasing Digital computers.  (I don't know if this applies
    to Digital PCs or not.) 
    
    Why not allow employees the same discount?  Put restrictions on the
    amount of PCs per purchase (i.e.  1 per year) if necessary.  
    
    Or maybe allow a "one-time" purchase deal at the cost center rate. 
    That way, we get a PC at home that markets Digital to others.
    
    How many PCs would be bought?  What is the employee population -
    60,000?  How many out of 60,000 would buy a PC right then-and-there
    with a 'one-time voucher' in hand thinking 'I can buy *any* model of 
    PC at *any* time ... today, tomorrow, in 6 months, next year ...'
    
    How many PCs do we make a year, anyway?  How much of a burden would it
    be?
    
    Dan

	I don't want a one-time "voucher". PC's change so quickly that
	in order to keep current with new stuff, I'll have to upgrade
	my PC to something newer/better/faster every 2.5 years.

							mike

    I think internally we only get a 20% discount on PC items via IEG.  I
    think the 40% is still true for other items.
    
    I had suggested a vacation time swap for PC when the new vacation
    limits were announced, last I heard they were looking at it.  Don't
    hold your breath.

    
    
      I personally believe we should be able to buy one of anything we
    make at cost per year. I have to believe to long run this would be
    good for both the company and its employees. I don't know how many 
    times people have asked over the years why I have a brand x PC at
    home and not one from Digital!!! You can argue about the home market
    vs the corporate market but the people who have asked are from both
    worlds and I'm sure it doesn't help when I answer, COST.
    
    
    -mike
    

    
    I'd love to have a Digital PC at home.  It is often embarrassing when the
    kids from the neighborhood ask.  "Why don't you have a Digital PC?" 
    The next question leads to ..."aren't they good enough?"
    
    I'd trade vacation time for a DEC PC in a second.           
    
      

    I think the reason Digital has never offered a decent discount on its
    PCs to its employees is because they've always had a hard time keeping
    up with demand from external customers and they don't want create more.
    
    Ken....
    

    
    I imagine that manufacturing cost of a Digital PC is somewhat confidential.
    So I guess that you would always be offered a percentage discount of the 
    MSRP. What the actual discount is might be open to interpretation.
    
    cheers,
    		fred deady

The margins for PCs in todays market are extremely low to non-existant.
The PCBU is pretty much breaking even.

In other words, we are already offering PCs at cost to any customer
who wants to buy them.  If you think our prices are too high, suggest
ways we can reduce cost [further downsizing might not be very popular].

Most PC suppliers are bleading themselves to offer the lowest prices.
This is a very tough game for a company like Digital with deep
technology pockets and corresponding overhead to win.

If you think Digital should sell PCs at the lowest prices,
what kind of company are you saying you want Digital to become?

If you think there is more to the computer business than assembling
motherboards and other off-the-shelf parts from the far east, how would
you identify this value and communicate it to others in the market?

- Peter

    re. .62
    
    The way I see it, I get a PC now ... then, 2.5yrs later, when the
    company is more profitable, a better EPP offer *may* exist.  If things
    don't change (for whatever reason), take your money where everyone else
    is .. anywhere but Digital.  Meantime, you've got 2.5 years of a
    Digital (Pentium, P6, etc.) you've been wanting ... at a good price.
    
    Dan

    Peter has a point; the PCBU really has no business incentive to
    provide Digital employees with PCs at or below cost.  If the MSO
    coporate folks thought that Digital employees should own Digital
    PC's, then they're the ones that should subsidize the PCBU for
    the purchases.  However, in the days of corporate reducing benefits
    (medical, dental, vacation,...), and probably not seeing any return
    on the investment in doing something like this, I find it highly
    unlikely.  But please beat up on corporate, not the PCBU.
    .02 Kratz

    re: Digital not in the "home market"
    
    I've never understood this... especially these days, what is the
    difference between a "home PC" and a "business PC"?  Aren't they
    pretty much configured the same way?
    
    And if they are, if there are no significant differences between
    them, why should anyone pay more for a product just because they're
    going to be using it in one environment as opposed to another?
    
    I can understand that a company's marketing efforts may not be
    aimed toward the "home market", but that's not what I'm talking
    about here.  Why do our PC's cost so much that they're not
    considered to be a "home computer"?
    
    Chris

re Note 3966.71 by DECWIN::RALTO:

>     I've never understood this... especially these days, what is the
>     difference between a "home PC" and a "business PC"?  Aren't they
>     pretty much configured the same way?
  
        Remember the comment of about 10-12 years ago, about how PC's
        were "small, inaccurate machines"?

        Well, today's version is that a "home PC" is a cheap,
        inaccurate machine.

        Bob

>>                      <<< Note 3966.70 by PCBUOA::KRATZ >>>
>>
>>    Peter has a point; the PCBU really has no business incentive to
>>    provide Digital employees with PCs at or below cost.  If the MSO

PCBU certainly does have an incentive:   MARKETING, ADVERTISING, AND
GOOD WILL.

Some of those employee owned PCs will generate sales elsewhere at the
regular price.  Apparently the PCBU doesn't this the generated sales
would be high enough to bother offering better incentives.

Garry

>    I've never understood this... especially these days, what is the
>    difference between a "home PC" and a "business PC"?  Aren't they
>    pretty much configured the same way?

   Maybe so.  But I think there are two slightly different markets.

   The real difference would seem to be between "price is the overriding
   factor" and "I'm willing to pay a little extra for quality".




   Actually, from the software point of view, there are two different
   markets (assuming the same hardware).  Given that preloaded software
   is seen as desirable, yer home PC comes laden (burdened!) with stuff
   like "Bob", a Microsoft Entertainment Pack, assorted "multimeeja"
   toys, and so on.  Yer office PC comes with Microsoft Office.
   (sometimes the two overlap... some of the Gateway configs for home
    use also have Office.)

>PCBU certainly does have an incentive:   MARKETING, ADVERTISING, AND
>GOOD WILL.
>
>Some of those employee owned PCs will generate sales elsewhere at the
>regular price.  
    
    I think you're missing the point: margins on PCs are very low, and
    the EPP price is probably about as close to "at cost" as you're
    likely to see. I imagine you'd like the company to sell you one of
    its PCs at a loss, but I don't think that likely.
    

    The company certainly could subsidize employee purchase of PCs at a 
    price which is nominally a loss - this would be an expense like any
    other employee benefit.  That Digital chooses not to do so is another
    matter.
    
    				Steve

> -< Lose money on each sale, make it up in volume? >-

  No, not "lose money on each sale", but lose money on a very few
  *STRATEGIC* sales. It would probably generate better word of
  mouth if my neighbors and business and social and political
  acquaintances knew I used a DEC PC. Instead, they know I use
  three different Apple Macintoshes and that, as a very satisfied
  Apple customer, my stable will be growing again shortly.

                                   Atlant

    Too many times, people have walked into my computer room at home and
    asked, "You work for Digital, right?  Why don't you have a Digital PC." 
    I then go on about the markets that Digital sells into (business,
    primarily with multiple PC configurations and networks), and I explain
    to them why there's a Gateway sitting there rather than a Digital
    machine.  
    
    I would much rather have had a Digital system, but at the time, 
    couldn't afford the extra $500 or so for a lesser configuration
    with less software.  I believe the same is true today.
    
    -Steve
    

    When Digital starts selling Macintosh clones, maybe I'll think about
    buying one... :-)
    
    				-John

    Re .79
    
    Exactly.  I was going to respond to the "I'm willing to pay a little
    extra for quality" remark in .74 by saying that I am indeed willing to
    do so - which is why I bought a Macintosh.
    
    That said, I hasten to point out that it isn't a problem of hardware
    quality - I do believe Digital's PCs are among the very best in that
    department.  It's a problem of software quality, and Digital is stuck
    with that mind-numbingly hostile Microsquash operating system.  Even
    with the knowledge that Win95 is vastly more friendly than Windows 3.x,
    I still know from experience that MacOS is better; Apple is the leader
    in this technology.  And I'm confident from my reading that the next
    version of MacOS, code-named Copland, will be out next year and will be
    as much better than Win95 as Win95 is better than Windows 3.x.
    
    -dick

I think it would be a wonderful idea for Digital to sell Macintosh clones.  Does
anyone know if we are looking into this?  IBM is already going to do it.

Paul

    IBM has said they'll do it - they have to do SOMETHING with all those
    PowerPC chips.  It doesn't seem worthwhile for Digital to get into that
    mess.
    
    I bought a Digital PC.  At the time I bought it, with the EPP discount,
    it was competitive with Dell, etc. in price.
    
    				Steve

    Hm...  All this discussion of Digital employees not using Digital
    boxes at home...  Hm...
    
    Would this be similar to the situation where I have a rented Compaq XL
    5100 SITTING IN MY CUBE running the design software I need, because
    Digital wouldn't provide a PC with the capabilities I need to do the
    DB/system design for the customer?  A Compaq box WHICH WILL BE GOING TO
    THE CUSTOMER SITE WITH ME - probably next week?
    
    We tried to get the PC sales people, and the regular sales people to
    provide a box, and even checked into renting from from Digital - our
    INTERNAL rental price was hundreds of dollars per month HIGHER than we
    could lease what was needed on the street.  AND THE LEASING COMPANY HAD
    A BOX TO ME IN 3 HOURS, NOT DAYS!
    
    BTW:  The customer doesn't need a box with this much horsepower,
    memory, or disk space for normal use, so I don't think we have a real
    good case for getting them to BUY one, especially since they're PAYING
    us ALREADY to do the design...
    

    Here in Hong Kong we do not have an employee purchase program except for
    a current special on Multias.
    
    My youngest is off to college and wanted a PC so I went to the local
    computer store and bought one component by component.  The only
    expensive part was a SONY monitor cause I think Monitors are important.  
    
    So CHicony motherboard with 16Mb ram, 10 Mhz Pentium and 256K cache.
    
    Cheap PCI to IDE controller for a Toshiba 4.4 CD, and a Seagate 850 Mb
    drive.
    
    An OEM SB16
    
    Cheap floppy drive.
    
    Acer keyboard. Genius Mouse. Okay speakers.  14.4 cheap modem
    
    Reel Magic MPEG board and a Trident 9440 with 2MB on it (1280x1024)
    
    Minitower with a 110/220 supply.
    
    (Software in Hong Kong is almost free)
    
    Three year labor, one year parts except for three years on the hard
    drive.
    
    Total cost was just under US$1800.
    
    What would be the US EMployee price for a similiar system?
    /joel
    
    
    

A 10Mhz Pentium? :-)

Why the MPEG board?

Digital doesn't sell a system comparable to what you have put together.

				Steve

    Notice a digital P.C. in the circular for the WIZ today in my local
    paper. Multimedia mini tower w/100 mhz Pentium processor w/ 15" monitor
    for $2599.96. The first one I`ve seen at the WIZ.
    
    Just thought you`d like to know.

    Joel,
    
    What's the price on a Multia in HongKong?
    
    Mark

    .85  The MPEG board is for three reasons.  A.  My kid is interested in
    video and is always playing with stuff like Adobe Premier and the MPEG
    board allows nice output.   B.  Movies on CD's sell for anywhere from
    US$20 for the latest official Philips CDI versions, to US$7 for local
    copies with Chinese subtitles.  C.  One benefit of having children is
    that you can buy whatever you want and pretend it is for the kid ;-)
    
    They sell CD's here which contain, for example, all of the Microsoft
    software, or all compilers, or whatever.  They go for as low as US$13. 
    You may think they are pirated software, but they are really sold to
    make life easier for people who have bought all of the licenses and
    just want a quick way to install.  Sometimes they even write valid
    serial numbers in a file in case you have lost your own.
    
    Here is the multia offer
    
Subject: I: Multia - Employee Purchase Offer                                    

Dear Digital Employees,

Since the introduction of Multia in Dec 94, we received a series of requests 
about the staff price and purchase procedure for this product. After discussion 
with SIS, our C&P Distributor in Hong Kong, SIS would like to offer 2 bundled 
systems at very attractive price as follows:

Package A:	
VX40B-GE	Multia, 2.5" 340MB Floppy, 24 MB SIMM RAM, PCI slot, 2 PCMCIA 
		type II slot, Alpha 166 MHz CPU, PCI Graphics Accelerator, 
		Thick/Thin/Twisted pair Ethernet, External SCSI-II, 16-bit CD 
		Quality Audio Hardware, Detached Power Cord for UK
PCXAL-GA	101 key PC Keyboard
VR425-HA	15" olor Monitor
Staff Price at HKD 29,900.00 (List Price is HKD 48,413.00)	

NB: US$ == HK$/7.75 = US$3860.00

	
Package B:	
VX40B-FE	Multia, 2.5" 340MB Floppy, 24 MB SIMM RAM, PCI slot, 2 PCMCIA 
		type II slot, Alpha 166 MHz CPU, PCI Graphics Accelerator, 
		Thick/Thin/Twisted pair Ethernet, External SCSI-II, 16-bit CD 
		Quality Audio Hardware, Detached Power Cord for UK
PCXAL-GA	101 key PC Keyboard
VR417-HA	17" Color Monitor
Staff Price at HKD 34,900.00 (List Price is HKD 56,174.00)	

    
    

    RE: My .84
    
    I am sorry, I converted the price incorrectly.  It was almost $2300
    /joel

    
    	RE: .86
    
    	The WIZ??  Can you clarify?  Where are you from?  What else was in
    	the minitower - memory, disk, fax/modem, etc?
    
    	Thanks, Diane

The Wiz is a consumer electronics discounter in the NY area.

The full name of the chain is "Nobody Beats the WIZ" - they are spreading
throughout the country.

				Steve

    
    Last Sunday here in CT, Nobody Beats the Wiz had a Digital 75Mhz
    Pentium with 1GB disk, 8MB memory, sound card and speakers for about
    $2,100.  It was the highlighted feature in their flyer and easily beat
    any other deal that was listed.
    
    - Gary

    re .88
    
    >They sell CD's here which contain, for example, all of the Microsoft
    >software, or all compilers, or whatever.  They go for as low as US$13. 
    >You may think they are pirated software, but they are really sold to
    >make life easier for people who have bought all of the licenses and
    >just want a quick way to install.  Sometimes they even write valid
    >serial numbers in a file in case you have lost your own.
    >
    
    ...and Bill Gates (along with a number of other software CEO's
    and presidents) will drop by to help out!
    
    Rob Wall
    

>    Last Sunday here in CT, Nobody Beats the Wiz had a Digital 75Mhz
>    Pentium with 1GB disk, 8MB memory, sound card and speakers for about
>    $2,100. 

	Last night, Computer City in Nashua had the AST 90Mhz pentium tower,
1Gb disk, 8 Meg, 4X CD, real SoundBlaster, speakers, 14.4/speakerphone (I have
the 75 Mhz version at home) for $1899 (without monitor.)

	Needless to say, they were out of stock.


						--Doug

    there's no sales tax in Mass. either... if they are out of stock.
    
    Mark :-)

    if I may digress here for a moment...
    
    re:  "The Wiz"
    
    The Wiz is a great example of a company that "changed" their name and,
    with some perserverence on their part, the name caught on.  
    
    "The Wiz" was a consumer electronics store (akin to Lechmere's,
    Circuit City, Crazy Eddie's, etc.) in the New York area in the mid 80's.  
    Their advertising slogan at the end of radio and television commercials
    was "nobody beats The Wiz."  Somewhere around 1990, someone got the
    'bright' idea to actually change the name of the store to match the
    slogan, so the name is now "Nobody Beats the Wiz."
    
    Now, when people say the name of the store (like .93) they are
    advertising it in the same breath!  (Not that this bears any similarity
    to the DEC/Digital debate, but an interesting tidbit.)
    
    Mike