Conference 7.286::digital

Well, if it is true that Gates weighs in at ~ 6 b$ , then his bank might be
interested in 64 bits to handle his account :):)

Timo

    You have to get off into the theoretical ether to find true 64-bit
    dependent applications. The better real life example would be to send
    them some ting on the recent Oracle test that invloved using the 64-bit
    address space and the Alpha OSF/1 memory manager to load an 8 GB data
    base into memory and then run it at an observed 400-600 times the
    performance of a normal, file system oriented database.
    
    The point of all this is that normal UNIX systems, i.e. the HP and IBM
    hotboxes, have much lower real life thrashing thresholds for large
    files. I believe that we have internal documents that state that the HP
    effectively bombs out or goes to sleep trying to swallow files larger
    than 600-700 MB. This large address space capability is also useful,
    though probably less than originally thought, in the CAD space, where
    CAD applications like UniGraphics can load very large and complex
    files, such as assembly files, that other systems might choke on. We've
    seen real life instances of that being useful in the field. The gotcha
    to watch out for is overstating this capability, since it is also
    possible to bite off too much with an Alpha and load so much into
    memory that you don't have the processing power to handle it (try
    rotating a complex 4-5GB assemby in real time!).
    
    So, go for the unique, but everyday things that are just out of the
    reach of the 32-bit systems - the big CAD file, the 1-10GB decision
    support database, the complex graphics application, etc. The
    application software developers are only now beginning to wake up to
    what is possible with the 33rd bit, much less all 64 bits.
    
    -OFWAMI- 

    
    	Mr. Werner -
    
    	Now go on, really. You suggest too much in the common sense arena.
    
    	Can see the ads now....
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    We have a Fortune 500 company that presented a planned application
     to us recently that was so big that 32 bit machines are going to
    choke. Alpha is perfect. It was finally satisfying to come across
     a real customer that has an application that requires Alpha
    technology.
    
    As this develops it will be fun to watch other vendors, IBM and HP
    squirm !!!!! 
    
    

    If you follow the suggestion of .0 to send mail to the editor of
    Advanced Systems, please, PLEASE copy me (the manager who coordinated
    sending that system) and Karen Quatromoni (Public Relations).  It makes
    PR nervous when editors hear things directly from Digital employees and
    they don't know about it.  And I'd like to know because we're preparing
    another system to go to the same editor next week.
    
    	CLT::HENNING
    	MSBCS::QUATROMONI
    
    By the way, the other point they dinged us about (OSF system management
    tools) is being addressed by the responsible group.
    
    And can we now have a resounding cheer for the good parts of that
    article please?
    
    	"With a pair of 190-MHz engines under the hood, the Alphaserver
    	2100 clobbered the four-Pentium ALR Revolution and HP 755 in 
    	compute-intensive tests."
    
    Not to mention that it took 3 (!) tries to get the advertised HP
    performance, but the Alpha performed as expected from the start. 
    
    	/john henning
         csg performance group

    
    	Have the article also...
    
    	To quote - "Don't let our kvetching about Digital's workstation
    marketing steer you away from the 2100. If you need to combine
    high-speed number crunching *and* general-purpose file service in a
    chassis with room for growth, look no further."
    
    
    	All in all, the article in question was fairly balanced if you
    like comparing apples to oranges to pears. Let's face it SCO/UNIX
    running on the ALR compared to HP/UX or OSF/1 is kind of like hitting
    your brother. It may feel OK, but it accomplished nothing. At least,
    we were mentioned in a positive light - and that, sports fans, says
    volumes.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    
    I wish they had done SGI, too.

re: .7

SGI does not have a 64bit operating system 

    re: .8
    
    SGI *is* the competition when it comes to rendering graphics.  CGW and
    DV (among others) are rags that now regularly discuss AXP and CGI
    machines as competitors.  I also see a fair amount of discussion on the
    Internet about these platforms when it comes to which is the best one for 
    rendering.  The current dogma seems to be that the AXP is the fastest.
    There is also discussion about software availability, distribution of 
    rendering jobs over a network, price, support and so forth.
    
    Steve

    Re: .8
    
    >SGI does not have a 64bit operating system
    
    FALSE, unless they failed to ship.
    
    SGI announced IRIX 6.0 (a 64-bit OS) in JUNE, 1994,
    which runs on their PowerChallenge and PowerOnyx
    machines.

RE: Note 3628.2 by GLDOA::WERNER

>    So, go for the unique, but everyday things that are just out of the
>    reach of the 32-bit systems - the big CAD file, the 1-10GB decision
>    support database, the complex graphics application, etc. The
>    application software developers are only now beginning to wake up to
>    what is possible with the 33rd bit, much less all 64 bits.

RDB using OpenVMS easily handles 50gb+ databases.  Of course then OpenVMS 
is a production operating which is made to handle jobs like this.

	- mark

RE: Note 3628.5 by I4GET::HENNING

>    It makes
>    PR nervous when editors hear things directly from Digital employees and
>    they don't know about it.  And I'd like to know because we're preparing
>    another system to go to the same editor next week.

Think the PR people get nervous...  Engineering gets nervous when we
hear things from PR and engineering didn't know about it (or created
yet)!!! :-)

	- mark

    
    Is there any competitive info on SGI on the net?
    
    Tried VTX, couldn't get to the server.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike M.

I am sure that i recently read somewhere that Oracle is curently working
with Digital to create a memory resident database application (using the
64-bit Alpha address space) to provide unbelievably fast access.

I am afraid that is all that i remember, but if you can find out more
then it should not only give an example or a true 64-bit commercial
application, but it would also provide solar-system shattering
performance figures!

mb

Re: .14

I don't think Mike is looking for SGI's slant on things!

			Steve

From a Press Release in VTX IR ...


								CORP/95/750

      
       
    DIGITAL AND ORACLE DEMONSTRATE WORLD'S FIRST 64-Bit IN-MEMORY
     RELATIONAL DATABASE NEXT-GENERATION APPLICATIONS TO THRIVE
                    ON MASSIVE PERFORMANCE GAINS

                           DECUS '94
               National Symposium and Trade Show

    Companies Demonstrate Real-world Benefits of 64-bit Computing ....

ANAHEIM, California -- December 12, 1994 -- Digital Equipment 
Corporation and Oracle Corporation today demonstrated an 
unprecedented industry achievement -- the world's largest in-memory 
commercial UNIX based relational database. This technology forms the 
foundation, and heralds new possibilities, for those customers who 
need to implement next-generation applications such as video-on- 
demand, decision support, data warehousing, micro marketing, real- 
time worldwide geographic information systems (GIS), and on-line 
transaction processing (OLTP). The demonstration, held here at DECUS 
'94, highlights additional proof of the advantages of 64-bit 
computing and provides customers the most powerful mainframe 
alternative for massive Very Large Database (VLDB) applications.   
Initial tests indicate performance gains of 600 to 800 percent when 
compared to existing database technology. These gains are achieved 
for one tenth the system cost when compared to traditional mainframe 
solutions.
     The two companies showcased an 8-gigabyte in-memory Oracle 
database running on Digital's 64-bit Alpha computers with the DEC 
OSF/1 operating system. Such large in-memory databases are 
impossible to implement with current 32-bit systems.
     Applications that take advantage of VLDB technology, many of 
which employ multimedia technology, are becoming increasingly 
popular across industries such as telecommunications, manufacturing, 
retail, pharmaceuticals, laboratory information management, and 
banking.
     This marks the first database application to fully exploit 
end-to-end 64-bit technology and sets a new standard with seamless 
integration of Oracle7 with Digital's Symmetric Multiprocessing 
(SMP), clusters, and DEC OSF/1 operating system technologies. 
     "The combination of Digital's 64-bit Alpha technology and 
64-bit DEC OSF/1 UNIX operating system is the main ingredient to 
database capacity of this magnitude," said Pauline Nist, Digital's 
vice president, High End Servers. "Digital's 64-bit Alpha systems 
have this capability today and are in full swing. IBM might have 
64-bit systems in 1996, Hewlett-Packard in 1997, Sun in 1998, and 
Compaq might have them in 1999."
     "We are very excited by this.  64-bit technology has made these 
results possible," said Robert Pariseau, VP, DEC Products Division, 
Oracle Corporation. "This means customers can look forward to viable 
64-bit, UNIX based mainframe alternatives for large mission critical 
applications.  Also, Oracle on DEC OSF/1 with 64-bit addressing will 
enhance Oracle's Media Server by enabling entire video images to be 
in memory."   
     Currently customers seeking mainframe alternatives are limited 
by the numbers of users, performance, and size of database that can 
be supported by existing 32-bit UNIX based systems. Digital and 
Oracle have broken these limits with today's demonstration. The 
delivery of this technology is one result of the more comprehensive, 
on-going joint Enterprise Solutions Program (ESP) which Oracle and 
Digital launched in July.

Advanced Technology Components
     This particular large scale database demonstration features the 
following components of Oracle's scalable, portable 64-bit database 
architecture: Large System Global Areas (SGA) and Big Oracle Blocks. 
     Large SGAs take advantage of Digital's 64-bit UNIX operating 
system, DEC OSF/1.  The goal of the Oracle and Digital large SGA 
project is to enhance the performance of Very Large Databases (VLDB) 
and make in-memory relational databases a market reality. Large SGAs 
result in an increase in database blocks cached, better cache hit 
ratios, and faster I/O completion as compared to previous 
implementations.
     Rapid disk to memory transfer is achieved with Big Oracle 
Blocks, which allow Oracle blocks to reach up to 32 KB in size.  
This results in more contiguous data, more rows per block, fewer 
chained blocks, flatter b-tree index structures, and a very high 
number of extents per tablespace. 
     Oracle and Digital efforts in the large in-memory database 
arena offer customers more than mainframe functionality by offering 
leading-edge open systems technologies, flexibility, superior 
performance, and affordability for both present and future 
applications. 
     Oracle Corp., a $2 billion company with headquarters in Redwood 
Shores, Calif., is the world's leading supplier of information 
management software. Oracle develops and markets Oracle Media Server 
and the Oracle7 family of software products for database management; 
Cooperative Development Environment (CDE), a complete set of tools 
for enterprise-wide, client/server application development; and 
Oracle Cooperative Applications, packaged client/server solutions 
for accounting, manufacturing, distribution, human resources and 
project control. Oracle software runs on personal digital 
assistants, PCs, workstations, minicomputers, mainframes and 
massively parallel computers. The company offers its products, along 
with related consulting, education and support services in more than 
90 countries around the world.
     Digital Equipment Corporation is the world's leader in open 
client/server solutions from personal computing to integrated 
worldwide information systems.  Digital's scalable Alpha platforms, 
storage, networking, software and services, together with industry- 
focused solutions from business partners, help organizations compete 
and win in today's global marketplace.				    
                                ####
      
Note to Editors:  Digital, the Digital logo, and DEC OSF/1 are 
      		  trademarks of Digital Equipment Corporation; 
                  Oracle is a registered trademark, Oracle7 and 
                  Oracle Media Server are trademarks of Oracle 
      		  Corporation; UNIX is a registered trademark in 
     		  the United States and other countries, licensed 
                  exclusively through X/Open Company, Ltd.

CORP/95/750

     	  David Farmer						    
     	  Digital Equipment Corporation
      	  (508) 264-6737
      
      	  Brenda Hansen                             
      	  Oracle Corporation                   
      	  (415) 506-6051                         

	Gee, "64-bit" was mentioned only 15 times...

						mike

    To -4: The SGI competitive analyst is Tom Walker. A wealth of
    knowledge. And a good guy.