Conference 7.286::digital

  I have a question about this. I recall that a few years ago a Japanese car
company came out with a car called the Starion. The story is that they in-
tended to call it a "Stallion" but due to an error in translation, it became
"Starion" and the people in charge of marketing in English-speaking countries
liked the high-tech sound of the name so much that they decided to stick with
it.
  My question is, why is Digital reusing this product name. Is it because:
1. Starion cars are not being sold in the U.S., and Starion PC's won't be sold
under this name outside the U.S., so there is no conflict?
2. We made an agreement with the car company to reuse this name?
3. The law says cars and PCs are so dissimilar that one company can use 
another's brand name at will? 
  I am aware that there is a precedent for this in that "VAX" is the brand name
for both a Digital computer and a British vacuum cleaner, and that the "dis-
similar products" argument was used to explain this.

The company was Mitsubishi (to whom we have licensed manufacture of
Alpha AXP processors).  As far as US trademark law goes, there's no conflict
since the products are not confusable, though I question its use anyway.

I doubt the story about the origin of the Starion name.  At the time, 
Mitsubishi also had a "Tredia".  I think they went to the same "name search
school" that so many others seem to have gone to.



				Steve

    Well, it's better than Daihatsu...would you buy a PC called a
    "Charade"?  On second thought...I've heard that name used in connection
    with our old Rainbow series... :^]
    
    								Tex

    
    Plenty of Starions still running around here in L.A.
    
    Nice looking, and fast cars.
    
    Replaced by the 3000gt/Stealth.
    
    

	Who gives a sh*t what the hell it's called. The important thing
	is that we are getting into the retail market. 

	I own a DECpc XL. I like it alot. I'd be curious to check these
	systems out.

							mike

>        I own a DECpc XL.

Obviously they're paying you too much !!

    
    	Getting into the SOHO marketplace is a long overdue move by our
    beloved company. I don't care what they call the machines, or how they
    name-convention the family; what does matter is the DIGITAL name plate
    be IYF in places where consumers purchase product.
    	Granted, this current movement from yesterday to today by Digital
    in our markets is slow, and at times, even silly; but it is necessary
    if we are to survive the next 35 years. Go to it Bernard, and get the
    rest of the troops moving, Enrico. This is more like it!!
    
    		the Greyhawk

    Last weekend I went to the local PC retail warehouse that had just
    opened in Manchester (Old England, home of the world's greatest soccer
    team).
    
    I made three observations:
    
    1 PC technology frightens no-one. The new store was packed full of
    'average' worker types who were as knowledgable as anyone, and they
    were *buying*.
    
    2 The PC that was being bought by the truckload was the new Compaq
    Presario (integrated CD, phone answering, stereo speakers, fax etc).
    
    3 The *only* major player whose kit was NOT stocked at this store (part
    of the biggest technology retail chain in England) was, ..er.. Digital.
    
    So, Starion, or whatever we call it, *will* probably sell like crazy if
    we pitch it right against the Presario, and *get it in the stores*.[I
    note that this problem may be UK specific just now]
    
    
    If it is close to the Presario, I'll buy one. (Almost bought a Presario
    on the weekend !..)
    
    AW

      Both Compaq's Presario and IBM's Aptiva are being heavily advertised
    on TV at the moment, aimed squarely at the SOHO market. I've seen the
    ads a few times, and I don't generally watch much commercial TV. This is
    obviously part of the run-up to Christmas, apparently the best time of
    year for sales of consumer electronics. Is the Starion going to appear
    (under whatever name) in the UK in time to catch this? It will be an
    'old' system (if it is still in production) by this time next year. 
    
    Ken

IBM has sold out of their production of Aptiva systems through the end of the
year.  Its success took them by surprise.  It would be nice if the demand was
similarly strong for our product.  Having seen the Aptiva, I like to think
that the Starion is a better product, but its limited distribution is going
to slow it down.

					Steve

There are a number of products on the market which do this already.  Indeed,
you can buy an add-on box which goes between your incoming phone line
and fax, modem and/or answering machine (or telephone) which does the
detection and switching.

The device picks up the line and listens.  If it hears a periodic beep, it's
a fax machine.  If it hears a steady tone, it's a modem.  Otherwise it's
a voice call.  (I'm not 100% sure regarding the modem - I thought that the
answering side has to first send an answer tone, but perhaps the card does
this.)

If you want to buy a product for your current PC, Computer City sells a
board called ACE for $240 that is a fax/data modem and voice-response
answering machine (with voicemail features).

IBM and Compaq have added similar interfaces to their Aptiva and Presario
lines.  IBM makes a big deal out of how the Aptiva will "turn itself on"
to answer a call even if it's switched off, but really any EnergyStar
compliant system, like the Starion, will do the same (the physical power switch
has to be on, but the system shuts down during periods of inactivity.)

					Steve

>                                            Is the Starion going to appear
>    (under whatever name) in the UK in time to catch this? 
    
    The Starion will probably not be launched under any name in the UK
    or anywhere else in Europe for that matter in the near future (maybe
    never).
    
    In other words in Europe customers have to settle with the Celebris
    and Venturis lines as far as desktop PC's from Digital are concerned
    for now (and whatever remains or is still manufactured of old models;
    LPv+, LPx+, LPx, XL, MTE).
    
    ...petri
    

The LPx, LPx+ and LPv+ lines are replaced by Venturis.  Celebris takes over
for the desktop PCI system.  XL is still around, but long in the tooth and
likely to be replaced soon.  MTE?  Probably will go away quietly.  Starion
is unlike anything we've offered before.

					Steve

    Does any one know whether the Box for venturis is the same or different
    from Celebris ? I know Celebris box actually an Olivetti Box, which is
    not a great design ( IMHO). Just curious !!
    

Venturis? Sounds like jets in a carburator. Wasn't there an Italian guy
named Venturi? I hope Venturis does not work by the same principle as
a carburator, namely that things suck :-)

>Per

    The enclosure for the Venturis line is the same as for the Celebris 
    models. 
    
    As to Celebris/Venturis details/differences, I believe conferences 
    such as NOTED::IBMPC-94, GIADEV::DECSTATION and STOWOA::PCPROD_INFO 
    are better places where to talk...
    
    ...petri
    
    

G'Day,

	Yes.  The Venturis (low profile) uses the same enclosure as the Celebris
:-(.

David.

    
    a question..
    
    the pc group was talking about being in the 'top 5 in '95'.
    
    does anyone know how many units they shipped in Q1, are they
    on track for over 1 million a year?
    
    
    just curious
    
    steve

    A lawyer friend of mine purchased a LPx+ in June.  He walks into CompUSA
    (NY) yesterday and sees the Starion line.  He called me up and rattled
    off the features and said, "how much?".  I bit.  He quoted.  My reply -
    "yeah right, tell me another one."  His response - "It said Digital and
    I placed my order on the spot.  This is system is better equipped and
    costs less that my LPx+."
    
    Bottom line...to all the nay sayers and negative noters who've
    been railing on the company to join the SOHO market with a cost
    competitive, quality product...it's time to give credit where credit is
    due and say something positive for a change.  No doubt some will see
    the glass as 1/4 empty instead of 3/4 full.

>>    No doubt some will see the glass as 1/4 empty instead of 3/4 full.
    
    No, obviously the glass is to big.
    
    	Dave

    re several previous, follow on from .8, .9, .10
    
    So, if I want to buy an integrated everything PC (CD, speakers,Fax,
    Ansaphone, blah blah), and I happen to live in Old England (home of
    Manchester United, the world's greatest soccer team who lost 4-0
    yesterday to Barcelona), it seems I can do one of two things:
    
    1 Buy a Presario or an Aptiva
    
    2 Buy a Starion when I am next in the US, and bring it home (will it go
      as cabin baggage I wonder. Will it run on 240V ?).
    
    Neither of the above will help us much penetrate the UK market !
    
    If we have a good product, please can I buy one ?
    
    :-(
    
    AW
    
    
    
    

    
     My *only* problem with this, actually I have many problems. Is that
    once again, a customer tells me about it. I *hate* that. I saw the
    LIVEWIRE note, but it was too late. I mean we are an information
    company, so where is my information. The LIVEWIRE article articulates
    3 new lines. Arrrghhhhhhhh! Toot my horn here. Yes, I'll go spend time
    in PC_PROD notes. But reallllllllyyyyyyyyy! Hey PC people, how about
    a least an E-Mail on your upcoming product announcements. Or are we
    not the same company. What gives? We are all SALES! We should ALL have
    clues on what our company offers. Why do we have to dig so hard? People
    will buy this stuff, if we Digital, ALL of us, point them in the right
    direction.
    
    Am I off base here or what?
          
    -Mike Z.

>  <<< Note 3479.23 by NEWVAX::MZARUDZKI "I AXPed it, and it is thinking..." >>>
>                        -< Someone forgot to tell me! >-
>...    
>    Am I off base here or what?

Yes, you are.  
Almost the LAST thing I want is for Reader's Choice to start sending me every 
one of our new product announcements or product update announcements,
even if it's just for the potentially "consumer-oriented" products.
Do you want to hear about every new inkjet and laser printer, 
add-on disk drive, network interface, etc. etc. etc?
I don't, not that fast, anyway.

- tom]

    
    Couldn't we have some sort of LISTSERV managing distribution lists.
    There could be many announcement distribution lists.  You could mail
    it and ask what distribution lists and available and subscribe to
    whatever your interested in.  Any announcements would then go to the
    appropiate distribution list.
    
    Hey, we could even add customers ;-)
    
    We probably do this already.?
    
    Mike

Re: .25

That's what Readers Choice (VTX PROFILE) is all about.

For customers we use the biz.dec newsgroup.

For products Digital sells, Sales Update usually suffices, though I don't
see the Venturis or Celebris lines in the online editions.

				Steve

    I signed up for press releases using Readers Choice.  I get no more than 
    one extra message a day - usually more like 2-3 a week and I saw both PC 
    announcements.  Yes, there is stuff I don't care about, but the delete
    key takes care of those quite nicely.  The Press Releases are grouped
    and the first paragraph tells you the title of each one in the group so
    you can know immediately if there is anything you care to read.
    
    Try it and Good Luck!  We all need to help each other stay informed!
    
    Maryann
    

When I read about the availability of Starion PCs,I had called up 1-800 number
for Starion PCs. I was told that these PCs are not available under EPP. I find
this quite ironic, as the margin which  now goes to retailers like CompUSA or
Sam's Club can be availed by the employees as a discount.

Can anyone please inform if Starion PCs will be available under EPP in future as
I am sure that  many employees would be very much interested in buying Starion
PCs  at a discounted price.? 

--Ravi 

    I suggest taking this to the NOTED::IBMPC-94 (or perhaps
    the EMPPURPRO) conference.  If we're building the Starion systems
    specifically for these retailers, there's no reason why they should
    be available to employees.  I bet the margin is less than 20%...
    
    You could probably equip a Venturis with the same options at a
    similar cost through an EPP purchase.
    
    					Steve

    re: -.2
     What margin ?
    

        <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES10:[NOTES$LIBRARY_10OF4]IBMPC-94.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< IBM PCs, clones, DOS, etc. >-
================================================================================
Note 2494.27               New Digital "Starion" line?                  27 of 28
PCBUOA::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Asia/Pacific Marketing"       14 lines   3-NOV-1994 15:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I sympathize with the frustration over not being able to get Starion
    through EPP, but keep in mind that retail products have very stringent
    manufacturing/logistics/delivery requirements.  Couple that with the
    fact that retail products by nature have the slimmest of all possible
    margins and you can see that any spikes (in either direction) in the
    demand/supply model can tube your retail business in a big hurry.
    
    Over time as we become more experienced with the retail model, I would
    suspect that we may see a change, but let's give a chance to work
    first.
    
    MHO,
    
    Mark.

    What Digital could do is send employees a coupon for say $300 off on
    a Starion.  Employees could then buy Digital first true attempt at a 
    home PC at a discount, the retailers would sell a few more units,
    which should make them happy and with a little creative bookkeeping,
    maybe you could write off the coupon's as some kind of a promotion.

    -Bruce  

    ...or a rebate coupon to be validated by the retailer, so that the
    retailer bears none of the cost... helps pump up the profitable volume
    for the retailers, so it benefits all parties

    re: coupon/rebate ideas
    
    reread .30 until the concept becomes clear.

��                      <<< Note 3479.34 by PCBUOA::KRATZ >>>
��    reread .30 until the concept becomes clear.

    .28 is referring to the retailer's markup on the product.
    This could be offered to employees -- e.g. give employees
    the wholesale price offered to retailers.   

    If digital has no margin as you claim, then just fold up
    the tent, and lay yourself off.

    Personally, I wouldn't want to give my business to a company
    that treats its employees the way dec does...

��     <<< Note 3479.31 by PCBUOA::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Asia/Pacific Marketing" >>>
��                          -< Cross-posted in IBM-PC >-
��    Over time as we become more experienced with the retail model, I would
��    suspect that we may see a change, but let's give a chance to work

    I remember seeing Rainbow(tm) personal computer systems in an
    Entre Computer Center in about 1982.  That's about 13 years
    ago.  How long do you think I'll have to wait for Digital to
    become: 
    		"more experienced with the retail model"

    Statistically, I only expect to live another 40 years, so
    they better get moving if they want my business!

re Note 3479.36 by LEEL::LINDQUIST:

>     I remember seeing Rainbow(tm) personal computer systems in an
>     Entre Computer Center in about 1982.  That's about 13 years
>     ago.  How long do you think I'll have to wait for Digital to
>     become: 
>     		"more experienced with the retail model"
  
        Well at least this time we recognize that it will takes some
        time to get really good at it.  The last time around we
        abandoned the Rainbow on the retail market almost as soon as
        we delivered it.

        Bob

    I hope this is not the sign of things to come but in the past 2 days
    I have logged 7 calls for starion's that are not working.  Five did not
    power up and 2 with disk problems. 

    So, let's write a memo to Enrico...
    
    Dear Sir:
    
    Employees have a great idea, sell our products at cost or at a loss. 
    This will greatly benefit the employees, who already love you.  And
    hopefully the customer will get enough machines to satisfy their
    business needs.
    
    We'll leave the business plan to you...
    
    Thanks,

    I just read some of the sales-update-type literature I got on the
    Venturis line, and noticed that one reason for the lower prices is that
    parity memory is not used (or available).  This saves, presumably,
    about 10% on memory cost.
    
  - Is this a standard industry practice on low-end machines? (the
    comparision tables in the literature don't address this, although the
    provision of secondary cache as optional does appear to be universal
    practice now on the low end)
    
  - Is this the same on the Starion?
                        

    Yes, non-parity memory is becoming more and more prevalent in low
    end, and even hi-end, PCs, although Apple hasn't had parity since
    the beginning of time.  Gateway will sell non-parity memory by
    default, although charges no more for parity memory if you ask
    for it.  kb

I stopped by CompUSA today ostensibly to see if they had MSVC V2 but in the
back of my mind also to see if the had a Starion on the shelf (the likelihood
of which I was skeptical about to say the least), and if so what they were
offering for what. I was very pleasantly surprised. First off, they had two of
them on the self and secondly, they seemed like good buys. The pentium
configuration included:
	60Mhz Pentium
	Mini-tower
	8 Mb RAM
	128K cache
	540 Mb IDE HDD
	3 1/2" FDD
	LB Video, 1Mb video RAM
	16 bit sound card
	CD-ROM drive
	Colorado 250 backup
	Modem
	Usual FIS SW including Claris Works
	The SW gimmick was the 11 million business' phone book CD-ROM
	No monitor
	$2295
Same configuration with a 486DX2/66 was $1595 I think.
Pretty respectable configurations with pretty reasonable prices I thought.

Why are we doing this 'no monitor' garbage again????  Does anyone else do this?

Bob

    re: .43
    
    >>Why are we doing this 'no monitor' garbage again????
    
    
    I assume it is to make our price look almost competitive (at first
    glance).  You need to add $300 to the price to really "compare" with
    other vendor's systems.  I must admit the new pricing is a BIG
    step in the right direction.  Though, not big enough for me; I just 
    dropped $3200 for a Pentium from another company.  Bottom line, I 
    got more for my money from them.
    
    
    Dave

>Why are we doing this 'no monitor' garbage again????  Does anyone else do this?

    If you go to CompUSA, the Digital, IBM, Compaq and Packard Bell systems
    are all priced with no monitor.  I imagine they do this for two
    reasons, to make the initial price look lower and to allow the consumer 
    to choose any monitor they like.  With or without a monitor the Starion
    PC's at CompUSA are price very close to the IBM and Compaq systems. 
    The Packard Bell systems are a little less expensive. 
    
    -Bruce

re: .45

Thanks for the info.  I was remembering the ads we put in the various PC mags
that showed systems with monitors, but weren't included in the price.  Left a
real bad taste in my mouth:-(

Bob

    Bob, most of the ads I see from Sears, Lechmere, Circuit City,
    Montgomery Ward, etc., all show systems with monitors then say in fine
    print, "monitor not included."  While it seems a little misleading to
    show a monitor and not include it, the picture of the system would look
    stupid to the consumer without one.  It seems to be "standard
    practice."
    
    
    Susan

fwiw,

The Sam's price on the Starion 400 was $2389, and I believe it included a 15"
monitor - certainly there were 2 boxes strapped together, made to be sold as a
package: one with the mini-tower and the other with the monitor.  They didn't
have a 200 on display.

    
    re. 45
    
    Packard Bell sells their systems and most include 27 titles of
    software with their mutimedia systems. Is Digital doing the same?
    
    Is that what one really gets.
    
    

    Heck - if you buy an Apple PowerMac, the keyboard is extra cost!
    (According to an ad I read.)
    
    					Steve

    Yes, for Quadra Macintoshs, the monitor and keyboard are extra.  
    The reason being that Apple has more than one keyboard that you
    can buy (include a very nice ergonomic version).
    
    Macintosh Performas, on the other hand, include monitor, keyboard, 
    bundled software, etc.  These are aimed towards folks who don't want 
    the flexibility (and confusion) of mixing and matching components.  
    These are the ones you'll find at Circuit City, Lechmere, Office Max, etc.
    There are now PowerPC models in the Performa line.
    
    				-John

re: Note 3479.49 by SWAM1::MEUSE_DA 
    
>    Packard Bell sells their systems and most include 27 titles of
>    software with their mutimedia systems. Is Digital doing the same?
>    
>    Is that what one really gets.

    I doubt you would find many of Packard Bell's 27 titles very
    interesting. I personally don't find much of the stuff Digital is
    including very interesting. Besides Micron and Gateway who give you
    Office, much of the software included 'free' with PC's isn't worth the
    floppy or cd it comes on.
 
    -Bruce
        
    Here is the list of software that comes with a Starion from the the press 
    release:
    
     o	MaxFax communications software 

     o	"Getting Started" interface screen with illustrated 
        instructions;

     o	Multimedia demos and tutorials to assist users with business 
        tasks, such as sending a FAX and data conferencing;

     o	Pre-loaded MS-DOS, Windows for Workgroups, and special, 
        on-line software manuals, including "The Complete Idiot's 
        Guide to Windows"; 

     o	Intel ProShare software for data conferencing; 

     o	ClarisWorks integrated software package for office 
        applications; 

     o	Lotus ScreenCam software for multimedia tutorial creation;

     o	CompuServe on-line information service; 

     o	For the four CD-ROM-based models, American Business 
        Information's "11 Million Businesses Phone Book;"

    er, If *anyone* from PCBU in Europe is looking in, please tell me why
    we are not offering Starion just yet this side of the pond.
    
    oh, and why the largest technology retail chain in the UK doesn't carry
    our kit at all ! (..I went again last weekend.. looked everywhere..
    nothing there from us :-(     ). IBM even had a technical guy standing
    alongside their displays, fielding any questions. I asked him if he got
    employee discount (yes), and If I could. (didn't tell him I worked for
    a different company..).
    
    SETMODE SHOUT LOUDLY ON:
    
    
    PLEASE CAN WE GET OUR STUFF WHERE IT CAN BE BOUGHT
    
    
    SETMODE NORMAL CUDDLY AGAIN
    
    .. er,  thank you.
    
    AW

    I also went o CompUSA yesterday evening to look at the Starion, and I
    MUST disagree with some of the previous.
    
    Comparing "apples to apples" ;-) the minitower Starion was priced LOWER
    than the Packard Bell, or ANY other Pentium system their for what is
    included. I am truly impressed with the product/value.
    
    Of concern, tho, is the shelf/floor space we have compared to the CPQ
    Presario configs, but I guess we have to start somewhere. I suspect
    we'll do very well if we can accurately forecast/ship to this channel,
    for many of the technically competent buyers will compare specs and
    bucks.
    
    Well done.

>     o  Pre-loaded MS-DOS, Windows for Workgroups, and special, 
>        on-line software manuals, including "The Complete Idiot's 
>        Guide to Windows"; 

Presumably we've already decided that anyone who'd
buy one of these systems *must* be a complete idiot?


[I'd prefer something like "The Intelligent Persons Guide to
 Software Which Was Written By A Complete Bunch Of Idiots"]

>> >     o  Pre-loaded MS-DOS, Windows for Workgroups, and special, 
>> >        on-line software manuals, including "The Complete Idiot's 
>> >        Guide to Windows"; 
>> 
>> Presumably we've already decided that anyone who'd
>> buy one of these systems *must* be a complete idiot?

Say what you want, but the "Complete Idiot's Guide" series and the "xxx for
Dummies" series are *very* popular books.  Including the on-line version with
the system is a smart move.

I'd suggest that complaints about the distribution of the PC line be taken
to STOWOA::PCPROD_INFO, as that file is monitored by PCBU folks.

Most of Packard Bell's "27 titles" are simple "databases" with a pretty
interface slapped on top - home inventory, car repair record, etc.  Not what
I call real applications.

					Steve

Re: EPP/Rebate/Coupon Ideas.

I agree that this is the first time 
DEC is positioning its PCs in 
the home PC market and I would like to own
our own Digital PC rather than going for any other PC in the market. 

I think this will be a great opportunity for most of the 
employees to buy a Digital PC
which will be affordable 
if we can get it thru EPP or a discount in any
 form like  rebate , coupon etc.

    
    re. 57
    
    Steve, thanks for the info on the titles. I'm looking into getting a pc.
    Actually, my 15 year old son is demanding a pc.Appears all his friends
    have a pc at home. 
    
    And so many choices. Now Digital gets into the pc market and makes it
    even more difficult. Plan on treking to Comp/USA and check them out.
    
    I called Dec Direct. But...I like to see what I get.Take it for a test
    drive. Shift gears, see how it handles.
    
    Oh well, shop until I drop.
    
    Dave
                                           

Digital has been in the PC market for several years, and is doing quite well.
Where it hasn't been is the retail store PC market.

You want a low-cost PC?  You can order a Venturis through EPP, configured
as you like it.   (Getting Digital to ship it to you is another story, like
the one I'm struggling through at the moment.  If we treat external customers
the way I've been treated, we'd lose millions of dollars in sales.)

The Starion is a nice packaged system at an attractive package price - one
you might be hard-pressed to meet even through EPP with an alternate system.
If you like it, go buy it and encourage stores like Sam's and CompUSA to
sell Digital products rather than teaching them that Digital will steal
customers away.

					Steve

Let me restate my .60.

If you want a Digital PC, go to CompUSA or Sam's Club and buy one, because
if you order one through EPP, you'll be fed a constant line of excuses as
to why your order didn't ship on its "commit date".  Each time your new
"commit date" rolls around, you'll get another excuse and another slip.

I'm glad that Digital is selling PCs in stores as that's the only way it
seems that you can actually get your hands on one.

At this moment, I am so furious I can barely type this in....  No wonder
our customers find us difficult to do business with.  In the PC marketplace,
our behavior is catastrophic.

					Steve

Adding to the discussion about distribution channels, employee purchase,
margins, discounts, etc...

My father worked for Raytheon for many years and retired from there.  He
received, and continues to receive, a 10% discount on any Amana product
purchased.

Why couldn't Digital do the same type of deal?

	- It can be implemented using the commercial distribution channels
	- Savings could be offset by shutting down much of the employee
		purchase support structure (all that would be needed is
		a coupon and the admin support to process them)
	- How many times have family or friends asked you for recommendations
		on PC purchases?  Doesn't it make sense for you to have
		a Digital one if you want others to buy also? And they tell
		two friends, and so on, and so on...
	- I find it hard to believe that the margins on a computer system
		are now much different than a stove, microwave, refrigerator,
		etc.  If Amana/Raytheon can do it, why not us?

					Mark

    
    Steve,
    
    Being in order admin for so long, I know all about it. Last Friday
    I reached critical mass on my customers system order because it was
    such a mess. The only thing that could have made it worse, was to
    include some empty beer cans in the box the system arrived in. It
    is being investigated by a very serious minded manager. Deliveries
    in this company, sad to say. Depends on who screams the loudest.
    
    I called Dec Direct once on this. It was just too confusing, and
    the guy was trying to push a lessor system on me. Plan to take 
    my time.
    
    Dave
    
    
    
    So it's strictly a retail thing for me. If the system is messed up,
    I box it up and take it back. That way I have a human being in front
    of me to address the problem. Not some...10 minute your on hold,
    voice at the other end.
    
    I think retail may just take away some business from Dec Direct on
    a scale that was larger than expected.
    
    Dave
    
    

    
    re. 61
    
    Steve,
    
    Forgot something. 
    
    Do what my customer does if you get fed up with Dec Direct/EPP.
    
    Cancel the order.
    
    

    Mark,
    
    There's not much R&D in microwave ovens anymore.  Anyway, I suspect
    that Amana does not have a low end product, like Goldstar and others. 
    They depend on brand loyalty to prop up their margin (which I'll bet is
    alot more than 10%).
    
    My friend at WalMart says that the PCs are the lowest margin product in
    the store.  Nothing, absolutely nothing has less profit for them.
    
    Mark

	Well, I checked them out last night at Sams Club and they
	are pretty nice PC's with very good prices for the functionality
	that you are getting. My DECpc 466 XL was significantly more 
	expensive when I added on all the gizmos. (sound card, modem, etc)
	
	If I was in the market for a system now, I'd DEFINATELY check out
	the retail DECpc's. 

							mike

    
        RE  .61, .63, .64
    
        If you're wondering about a customer experience with DECDirect, 
        as well as shipping stuff with errors, read my note 3452.150 .
        It kind of got lost in the "Whatever it takes" discussion, so 
        I may repost it separately.
    
        The question still stands:  How does "whatever it takes" apply 
        in that context?  And that's not to complain, but to fix it!
    
        Peter
    

I was out to dinner with a bunch of my wife co-workers and an engineer that
works with my wife is planning to buy 9 Pentium 90 MHz PC's for their
engineering group. He informed my wife (buyer) to place an order for 9 Gateway
P5-90 with 17" monitor upgrade at $2,900 each. 

My wife asked if he looked at the Digital PC and the engineer indicated the
compatible Digital PC with a 17" Monitor is about $4,000 each. Since her company
has a VAX system, they also get a discount on buying Digital product. Even with
the discount, the Digital PC is way above the Gateway price. If I could only
tell him about the EPP prices:-) 

I am sure the Digital PC might have some technical advantages (ie: 3 year
warranty with the 1st year onsite, 64 bit video card, reliability record, 
etc..), but how will I convenience a person to buy our product if the 
advantages are not related to performance. 

Also, where would I get the technical info on our PC so I can explain to my
friend why we are higher in price. I don't think this engineer has contacted
our Digital PC Sale staff so I would guess he quoting the $4,000 from the
September Digital PC Catalog. With the new Celebris units out, has the price
dropped?

Since he is buy 9 units, will Digital give a price break? 

At the present time, the purchase order has not been place. Any additional 
on the Digital PC info might help make a sale.


David Hui
SCOMAN::HUI



  

    Call 1 (800) PCBYDEC and ask for the November catalog.

     
     I'm researching some Starion information, specs, and prices 
     for a friend. Does any one have standard configurations and pricing?
     
     I also need to determine, if DEC is using Intel's mother board, their own,
     or another manufacturer's mother board.
     
     Any information or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

     Thanks in advance,

     Norma
     

The place to look for information on Digital's PCs is STOWOA::PCPROD_INFO.
The DECdirect catalog is online and has details on current models (mostly).
800-PCBYDEC can also provide configurations.  There's also a fax-back
service at 800-388-3228.

We can't beat Gateway 2000's prices, but I think our products are far higher
in quality.  A Celebris 590 with 17" monitor is currently $3698, but I expect
prices to drop soon.



Re: Starion

We don't use Intel's motherboards - we either do our own or use Olivetti's.
The Starion is probably our own.

    re .last
    >We don't use Intel's motherboards - we either do our own or use Olivetti's.
    
    Things change when you're in the retail market.

    
    68.
    
    For the price we charge, he can buy his 9 Gateway machines AND 2
    spare machines and have $500 left over.  The 2 spares will ensure
    virtually zero engineer downtime even if he has to ship machines
    back to GW for repairs.  If it were my budget.....

     I check on so specific technical differences between the Gateway and
     Celebris.
 
     1. The Hard drive on the Celebris is faster. (10 ms vs. 13 ms)
     2. Celebris Graphic card is a 64 bit 2 MB vs 32 bit 2MB. 
     3. The 17" monitor for Digital is a Sony Trinatron .26 mm. I would
        think Gateway is using a .28mm.
     4. The Gateway ad did not indicate the slots but Celebris has 1 PCI, 
        1 PCI/ISA, and 3 ISA.
     5. Also Digital unit is Energy Star (<30 watts).

     6. The Gateway unit provide a double speed CD, $299 option for Celebris
     7. Also MS Office CD  is provided on the Gateway. Celebris just have
        some start up stuff.

     Since this friend is using the units for drawing and graphics, he might
     be happier with the 64 bit graphic card and better Monitor. I will keep
     you inform on what they end up buying.


     David

    He might also be interested in a Starion.  The Pentium models
    have 64-bit graphics accelerators.
    
    					Steve

    Starion pricing included monitors at the retail level.
    Stay tuned for more.
    

    
    RE: 800-PCBYDEC
    
    Let's see..I called them twice in the past 6 months. 
    
    First time I left a message that I wanted the catalog. I left them my
    address, and my home phone number (didn't mention that I was a Digital
    employee)...well..6 months later ..nothing..
    
    I called againd 2 or 3 weeks ago, waited and talked to a real person (I even
    have his name and extention)..he was nice, professional and helpful.
    Told me he'd mail me the catalog. He also told me about the new
    packages just being announced, but those weren't in the catalog.
    So I asked him to fax the information, and give him my husband's 
    fax number..no fax arrived, and no catalog arrived.
    
    I don't think I'll be buying PCBYDEC..
    
    Nisreen
    

    If you want a copy of the PCBYDEC catalogue, I believe you can
    subscribe as an employee via your VTX User Profile.  Type VTX PROFILE
    and I think you can select all kinds of subscriptions.  Not sure if the
    catalog is one of them, but give it a try...  However, I also know that
    that doesn't address the issue....  What if you were an external
    customer... My goodness...
    
    Toodles.....JP
    

    I had no trouble getting a catalog by calling PCBYDEC.
    
    				Steve

I had lunch today with a former classmate.  He had also bought
a Gateway2000 pc, but recommended against any further purchases
because of their poor support service.

He spoke of waiting on the phone for over 1 hour in order to
talk to a tech rep with an attitude problem.  There were
other things he mentioned, but the general picture was very
negative.

It may be that Gateway2000 is getting so much business lately 
that their service cannot keep up.

Digital should have a display above their PCs in these
retail outlets indicating their #1 rating in service (as
per some pc magazine awhile back?  Not sure about the
specifics on the rating ...).  

Premium service at a competitive pc price.  Could work as a
differentiator...

    Digital's retail displays and ads prominently mention the
    good rating of our service.
    
    					Steve

    
    I am not associated with the service end for these products, but I do
    know, as usually (SOP), that the people supporting these products have
    not even seen the hardware.  And probably can not even get their hands
    on one system.  You also now have Digital's Variable Work Force, which
    means the individual on the support line may not even be a Digital
    employee (Contracted Support).  The lack of hardware and software for
    the Support Specialist is nothing new, but you now have a new
    environment with the Variable Work Force.
    
     
    
    

    
    re .-1
    Total agreement here...
    
    Are we as far behind the eight-ball as it seems on shipping product?
    I still have never gotten a "real" answer about why the Employee
    Purchase Plan is so bad. Does no one realize that there are many
    thousands of 'salesmen' in this company that would impress friend and
    neighbors with their fancy new toy? MY neighbor just plunked down $1800
    on a Packard Bell than would cost me $2500+ to duplicate. Why? HIS
    company (a major aluminium company's rolled product division) footed a
    chunk of bill. Why? They use 'em at work, (DEC ones too!) and figured
    that employee education was a "good thing".
    
    I am constantly amzed that the new-digital does not appreciate it's
    workers enough to enable them to grow in area this company needs.
    
    But then, with your new-digital-variable-workforce it's not really
    neccesary to care, is it?
    
    .mike.

    Yes, the answering machine is smart enough to decide if the incoming
    call is a FAX/DATA or voice call.
    
    The system does not support a speakerphone application... yet. See us
    in the spring.
    
    Retail Engineering

    Working in a pmo in the intel space, I have the job of taking information
    out of our SOC or PC catologs and placing them in a config guide with
    verbage since our entire product set is not on the buying
    vehicle...well, in reviewing the config guide before I send it out, our
    local PCBU rep asks "where did you get THAT information about our PCs?"
    
    I said: "From your PC catalog..."  I show him and he says, oh, it's
    wrong!  Find out that SOC is incorrect in an unbelievable large amount
    of the time.
    
    So, we lay off our 800 tech support, let our good talent attrite since
    we don't wanna pay the industry norm, and our literature is incorrect.  
    
    What a way to run a Fortune 100 company! 

    
    	In Pre-Sales Tech. Support here, we spend most of our time trying
    to find out the correct data!  We have accumulated a huge amount of
    CORRECT data about very many UK options.  We too have found that there
    is no *one* correct source of information - or even two or three sources.
    
    	Very often we have to resort to getting the truth from the
    engineering people.  If we can ever help with information about a UK or
    non-country specific option, please feel free to call (DTN 830-2864) or
    mail me on Malcolm Powell @REO.
    
    				Malcolm. 

    My wife actually spotted a Starion 400 at the Sams Wholesale Club here
    in Houston last night before I did. "LOOK!!!" She exclaimed. She
    couldn't believe her eyes, an actual product that said Digital on the
    cover and on the screen, sitting there for everyone to see.
    
    But the price tag said "Last One"... Is Sams already dropping us, or
    are the Starions selling out faster than we can ship 'em?
    
    The system had a nice grahpic on the screen with a "Click on any topic
    to learn more" logo at the bottom. But alas, there was no mouse to be
    found and I couldn't get anything to happen from the keyboard... :-(
    
    Harry
    

>>    But the price tag said "Last One"... Is Sams already dropping us, or
>>    are the Starions selling out faster than we can ship 'em?

    Harry
    
Here in Colorado Springs, SAMS had gotten @35 of these in. They were gone
in a week. I'd say they are sell very good and we, or SAMS has a supply
problem. I would tend to believe "both". Knowing how SAMS supply line runs,
(cause of a friend), each store gats an allotment and they have to wait
for their next lot. They can't necessarily order based on demand.

Besides Digital probably can't supply the quantity yet anyway.

John I

    can't wait
    

    
    Does anyone have any insight to the last sentence:
    
    	"The company also offers remote support via modem for instant
    fixes."
    
    	- What type of remote support?
    
    	- Who provides the remote support?
    	
    	- What do we mean by instant fixes? How quick? Fixes to what?
    
    	- Is this done on products other than Starion?
    
    Thanks for any pointers or answers.
    
    - Jim K

    Jim,
    
    	Seems the lack of CSSE is now biting MCS eh?????  I know of where
    we would have gone to find all this stuff out in the good ole days.
    Let's see how the information disperses now a days.
    
    This is not a new idea, as you know, we are doing a similar thing
    in VIIS, but maybe the support and fixes and patches are not coming
    from MCS?  
    
    I will watch this entry closely.
    
    chet

    I found out today that DOA Starions are already hitting the
    ServiCenters. One of our ServiCenter folks called support to get part
    number info on a dead CD-ROM drive and was told that there have been
    "many" DOA CD drives reported already.
    
    So he asks "Don't we test these things before we ship them?". The reply
    was "No, they just get slapped together and shipped. Testing takes too
    long. Any problems are resolved in the field". Looks like lots of job
    security for MCS... :-(
    
    Harry
    

    RE: Starions
    
    Did you know that if you are the manager of the SAMS club (or the
    designated buyer) and you sell a certain amount of systems (in a
    specific time period) you are eligible to win a trip to Hawaii... 
    
    Give credit to where credit is due... another thumbs up for those
    *supposedly* non-existant marketing folks.
    
    Phil
    

re: 3479.92 by DPDMAI::HARDMAN

How about getting some email to Ken Bernier or me about the
generalizations you are either making or repeating. Have all of these
'"many" DOA CD drives' been on Starions or other systems?

If there is evidence of an epidemic problem in the field, let's ID it
if it exists and work it appropriately. We do collect and analyze
repair data but that's obviously after-the-fact.

Pete

Well, mine worked fine right out of the box.  And i'm generally very happy with
the machine.

I do have a couple of comments though.  The Sam's people seem to be totally
unprepared to sell these PC's - I've talked to two different people at the local
store that work the floor, neither of them knew anything about what they were
selling, both of them had a desire to get some training on them in order to
answer customer questions.  I thought I saw something in the Livewire
announcement about Digital providing some training? Even a video tape for
these people to watch which tells them about the machines would be better
that what it sounded like thay've gotten so far (though 2 people is not
a statistically large sample, it did make me wonder if the situation is being
repeated at other Sam's stores.

The concept of the "Getting started" program is interesting, but somewhat a
pain in the rear end.  It's nice that the master software for the layered
products was shipped with the PC, but, frankly I've got better things to do with
my time than spend it using "Getting Started" to back the stuff backed up to
stiffy's.  CD-ROM's are so cheap to press, that my suggestion would be to
include everything on a CD-ROM in the proprietary "Getting Started" format.
It's also a little irritating that if you delete "Getting Started" you cannot
do anything with the "master" copies of the other software - a utility that
allows you to simply back that stuff up should be left on the system even after
"Getting Started" is removed.  The obvious argument against the CD-ROM, is that
not all of the Starion's ship with a CD player - why is that?  I'm assuming that
this is a result of market analysis indicating that there was a need for a
486/DX2 66Mhz with a sound board, speakers etc. w/o a cd-player, but I really
wonder about that - the general trend in the industry seems to be moving to
CD-ROM distribution over stiffy's.  A lot of software coming out lately gives
you the option of getting a CD-ROM without any increase in price over other
media, plus the CD usually has lots of extra stuff on it.

By the way, except for the display model, the local Sam's is now sold out of the
400's, but it doesn't look like they've sold any of the 300's (the no CD
model, if I got my numbers correct).

Which brings up another comment - Sam's is going to have a tough time selling
the display models; they've been trashed software-wise.  I suspect a couple of
unsupervised kids had fun one day; the display 400 had just about eveything
deleted from it.  Given the difficulty of backing things up with "Getting
Started," my guess is that it will be left that way.  There ought to be a way
for us to provide something for a demo that would prevent this type of abuse
(could we somehow write protect most of the stuff on the drive?), besides the
fact that Sam's is going to have a tough time selling it without any software,
it no longer makes a good demo for our product.

A couple of comments on the hardware itself.  The box packaging is somewhat
mis-leading, saying "5 expansion bays/2 PCI 3 ISA", when in fact you cannot use
5 slots.  The most you can use is 4 slots, 3 when you take into account
the fact that the sound/modem/fax card already takes up one slot.  Of the
4, you can only do combinations of 3 ISA/1 PCI or 2 ISA/2 PCI - something you
only find out about after reading the manual.  The packaging should reflect
this fact - if you can't use 5 slots, don't say you have 5 slots.  Frankly,
I'd call this type of packaging an outright lie.  Cards also seem to fit very
tight in the slots - they were tough to insert, and because the rise card did
not seem to be well supported underneath, if you're not careful, it seems like
you could easily break a card - may not be an issue though.

Also not clear on the packaging for the 400 is how much cache is included (none).

The manual seems to make it sound like a snap to add another IDE drive - now,
i'm not an expert on this, but given that the shipped disk and the CD-ROM
are both IDE, I thought that maxed out the capabilities of the on-board
IDE interface (I could be wrong, but I cound't find any IDE cables that
allowed chaining of three devices).  This implies that you'll need to use
an add-on IDE controller - if that's in fact the case, the manual should
probably discuss this a little bit better.

I haven't decided if I like Windows for Workgroups yet, it didn't come with most
of the icons i'm used to with Windows 3.1 - oh, the software is there (like
there's no icon for NOTEPAD, but notepad is there), but I had to add the
icons for some of it.  I don't know whether this is our doing or MS's doing - if
it's something we have control over, I think we may want to re-evaluate some
aspects of this.

--Scott

Enhanced IDE (and that's what the Starion's got if it has an IDE CD-ROM) can
handle four drives.

					Steve

Enhanced IDE is a feature then, right?  We should be saying we have it!  I'm
gonna go read thru my manual again, but I don't remember anything about enhanced
IDE even being mentioned (I might have missed it though).  As I recall, enhanced
IDE also allows faster data transfer rates, so there's at least two reasons we
should be saying it's available.  That's nice to hear though.

Re: .95

>A couple of comments on the hardware itself.  The box packaging is somewhat
>mis-leading, saying "5 expansion bays/2 PCI 3 ISA", when in fact you cannot use
>5 slots.  The most you can use is 4 slots, 3 when you take into account
>the fact that the sound/modem/fax card already takes up one slot.  Of the
>4, you can only do combinations of 3 ISA/1 PCI or 2 ISA/2 PCI - something you
>only find out about after reading the manual.  The packaging should reflect
>this fact - if you can't use 5 slots, don't say you have 5 slots.  Frankly,
>I'd call this type of packaging an outright lie.  Cards also seem to fit very
>tight in the slots - they were tough to insert, and because the rise card did
>not seem to be well supported underneath, if you're not careful, it seems like
>you could easily break a card - may not be an issue though.

Wow!  Real information about the innards!  I have questions:

  o You say only 4 slots are usable - please exlain.  Is the fifth not there at
    all?  Not accessable from the rear panel?  Constrained in some way (short)?

  o How is the memory banked (number and size)?

  o Any indication who makes CD-ROM?  The soundcard?

  o What sort of hard drive is included?

  o What's the power supply wattage?

Thanks,

Bob (still looking for a full engineering spec)

    
    Scott - How much did the system cost ?
              

RE: .98

	There are 5 actual slots but only 4 are able to be used at
	any one time. One of the PCI and ISA slots share an opening
	in the back. It's an either/or situation.

							mike

Wow.  So many questions....

Lesse if I can answer some.

re .98

>  o You say only 4 slots are usable - please exlain.  Is the fifth not there at
>    all?  Not accessable from the rear panel?  Constrained in some way (short)?

There are 5 sockets - 2 PCI, 3 ISA.  However, because of the layout on the riser
card, only 4 of them are accessable from the back at any given time; one
of the ISA slots physically overlaps an opening that would be used by the PCI
slot (I guess the "backpanel" is oriented on the other side of the board for
PCI than for ISA.  I guess if you could get a PCI card that didn't need
a backpanel, you might be able to place it in the shared slot with an ISA,
I don't know though, since i'm not sure if the overlap is electronic (can they
do that?) as well as physical.

>  o How is the memory banked (number and size)?

With the 400, there are 4 available banks.  The unit ships with two 4MB simms,
leaving 2 available banks. The configuration seems fairly flexible (I guess)
and the entire chart is in the manual.  Without "throwing away" the existing
SIMMs, I can add two additional 32MB SIMMs and max out at 72MB total.  using
four 32MB SIMMS gives you the system max of 128MB.  Looking at the chart,
it seems banks must be occupied in pairs - I seem to recall that this is normal.

>  o Any indication who makes CD-ROM?  The soundcard?

I cannot tell without physically removing the CD who made it, a couple of
the mounting screws look kinda hard to get at, so, I think i'll pass on this
one.  I don't remember seeing in the manuals the mfg name either.

The sound card is a ProAudio from ESS (?).  There's a bunch of online manuals
that I have yet to go through - but I still haven't found the CD-player utility
(even though the pocket guide for the sound card claims it can play music CD's.

>  o What sort of hard drive is included?

540 MB made by MAXTOR.  The software (DOS 6.22) doesn't seem to come with
doublespace enabled, so you end up with about 350+MB assuming you don't delete
any of the provided software.  Stacker quickly turned the drive into 1GB+

>  o What's the power supply wattage?

The box claims 200 watts.  There's 1 extra connector available in the 400,
which in the 500 I think would be used by the tape drive.  I can't see any other
extra connectors provided for additional devices, so I guess you'd have to get
some sort of Y adapter (which I think I've seen sold in catalogs).

Re .99

The price was 2,399.86 - not including taxes.  Seemed pretty reasonable to
me.  My only big disappointment was the PCI/ISA card issue - it's probably not
going to be a real major issue for me, since the only thing I want for X-mas is
a PCI/SCSI card.

Also, the video claims to be VL bus, and you can expand it's memory up to 2MB
(it comes with 1MB).  The max cache size is 512KB (the 500's ship with 256
in two 128KB modules) using two 256 KB modules.  The CPU socket is ZIF, and
according to the manual, can be upgraded to a faster CPU.

--Scott

The CD-ROM is probably Philips - that's the IDE CD-ROM we're selling now.

I tend to doubt the graphics is VL bus.  It probably said "local bus" - PCI
is local bus too.  The Starion's graphics accelerator is an S3 chip (I don't
recall which one) integrated on the motherboard.

Yes, enhanced IDE is a feature, but it's not a unique one.

I wouldn't worry about the slots.  Look at it this way - many systems would
have taken up a PCI slot with a separate graphics accelerator board, so
you came out even.  My Celebris has 1 PCI, 1 PCI/ISA and 3 ISA slots.  I don't
have ANYTHING in the PCI slots and just two of the ISA slots used.

For CD audio, make sure that the "MCI CD audio" driver is loaded.  It wasn't
on my Celebris.  You do this by selecting "Drivers" from the "Control Panel"
application; it will then tell you to insert the appropriate floppy from
the Windows distribution (which you of course made from the FIS during the
"Getting Started" operation.)  The player should have been provided with
the sound card software.

					Steve

>I tend to doubt the graphics is VL bus.  It probably said "local bus" - PCI
>is local bus too.  The Starion's graphics accelerator is an S3 chip (I don't
>recall which one) integrated on the motherboard.

Ah, I see that I'm getting confused again.  The box does say "Local bus
graphics," which I took to mean VL (both have the word local, don't they?).
Thanks for clarifying that.

>I wouldn't worry about the slots.  Look at it this way - many systems would
>have taken up a PCI slot with a separate graphics accelerator board, so
>you came out even.  My Celebris has 1 PCI, 1 PCI/ISA and 3 ISA slots.  I don't
>have ANYTHING in the PCI slots and just two of the ISA slots used.

I'm not too worried - just a little irritated.  The box clearly says 5 slots;
looking at the back of the display model, I could see 5 slot "bays" and it's not
until you read the manual that you find out it's really only 4 slots.  In my
mind, if you can't use that 5th slot, then saying there are 5 slots with the
implication that you can use 5 boards, is simply a lie.

>For CD audio, make sure that the "MCI CD audio" driver is loaded.  It wasn't
>on my Celebris.  You do this by selecting "Drivers" from the "Control Panel"
>application; it will then tell you to insert the appropriate floppy from
>the Windows distribution (which you of course made from the FIS during the
>"Getting Started" operation.)  The player should have been provided with
>the sound card software.

Thanks.  I'll poke around some.  I've got some other things to clean up on
it first, so the cd audio hasn't really been at the top of my list.

>The max cache size is 512KB (the 500's ship with 256
>in two 128KB modules) using two 256 KB modules.

I mis-read the manual.  You can expand up to 1MB of external cache by using
two 512KB modules.  Sorry about that.

Also, just to make sure it's clear.  The max memory of 128 MB is specific
to the Starion 400/500 machines.  The 200/300 machines have a lower maximum
amount (as I recall).

And, since I'm flipping through the 400/500 manual right now, here's what it
says about the video:

Onboard video
  ....Major features include:

o  PCI Bus Video Interface - a 32-bit non-bus mastering interface provides
   a no-wait-state, read/write cycle operating up to 33 MHz to improve
   video performance.

o  Onboard DRAM - minimum of 1MB onboard DRAM

o RAMDAC support - the RAMDAC can display up to 24 bits per pixel (16.8
  million) true colors.

o Monitor timing modes - the latest 75 Hz monitor timing modes

o Feature Connector - a 26 pin feature connector.  This output-only connector
  can be used with multimedia options

Also, if i'm reading this correctly, the local bus is strictly PCI and they use
PCI-to-ISA bridge circuitry for the ISA slots.

--Scott

    
    Went to both Sam's Club and CompUSA.
    Couldn't find anybody that could demo the one Starion on display or
    answer questions. It's was priced at $2399. A warehouse type of store,
    so that's expected. 
    
    CompUSA, they had one on display. No price was listed for it. The
    salesperson recommended thier 486 Compudyn machine over it, stated
    it was a lot faster. Said he owned one, blah, blah blah. 
    
    Overall I wasn't inpressed with these two stores, but thats retail.
    I think Circuit City would do a better job.
    
    Dave
    

Re: .101-.104

Thanks alot for the info!

Bob

    re PCI slots: It seems to be common practice to advertise the number of
    slots in this way - and all PCI motherboards I've seeen have the same
    limitation. This is due to the fact that PCI boards have are sort of
    mirror images of ISA boards (components on the opposite side; backplane
    offset by one slot from an ISA card).

    When one says just "local bus video", and the machine has no local
    bus expansion slots, then in marketing speak it means really:
    
    	it is either a proprietary local bus implementation (i.e.,
    	*NEITHER* VL-bus *NOR* PCI) or 
    
    	it can also mean that it is a VL-bus slot, but because general
    	marketing hype et al seems to prefer PCI, we don't want to
    	point out that this is a new machine, that should have PCI,
    	but because we wanted to build it cheaper a slotless VL-bus
    	was used instead
    
    If the machine has VL-bus or PCI expansion slots, and integrated
    local bus video (and whetever else), then the integrated device
    is on the same kind of bus as the expansion slots (or at least
    I have never come accross a machine with, e.g., PCI slots, but
    VL-bus video on-board).
    
    ;-)
    
    ...petri

    I think your "either or" is misleading.  On the Starion (and
    Celebris), the graphics controller is physically on the PCI bus but
    doesn't use a card.  This is what most manufacturers mean when they
    say they have "integrated local bus video".  (It may be VL bus if
    that's the design of the system.)
    
    					Steve

    
    I picked up my Starion 700 at CompUSA in Framingham, MA on Thursday. 
    They are offering a discount to Digital employees if you show your badge. 
    So, the system offered at $2799 is available to employees at $2639 plus tax.
    My husband and I set it up yesterday and everything worked perfectly
    out of the box. We are both extremely impressed with the features,
    price, and quality. I have used Digital equipment-- both minis and PCs
    since 1982 and I always find them to be of extremely high quality and
    highly reliable. The Starion looks like a winner to me.
    
    I'm usually a read-only noter, but this conference looked like it could
    use a positive note. :^)
    -- Dianne

    What did you think of the packaging?
    
    Brian

 A good place to look for Starion information...

        <<< NOTED::DISK$NOTES10:[NOTES$LIBRARY_10OF4]IBMPC-95.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< IBM PCs, clones, DOS, etc. >-
================================================================================
Note 572.0               Official Digital Starion Topic                  1 reply
EEMELI::BACKSTROM "bwk,pjp;SwTools;pg2;lines23-24"    5 lines   3-JAN-1995 16:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Use this topic to discuss the Starion family of Digital PC's
    (but please do remember also conferences listed in the first
    few replies of topic 519 ;-).
    
    ...petri

On Friday I went into Comp-USA in Woburn MA looking for a Starion. The
not so "Customer Friendly" salesperson explained that Comp-USA didn't
have it in stock and additional units were not expected. He couldn't
explain why but thought that Digital might be coming out with a
new line. "Every body is coming out with a new line." (The Starion
was still on display, although the mini-tower looked as if someone
had drop kicked it a few times.) He complained that "Digital better
offer additional software with there new line because it is tough to
sell units without the encyclopedia, etc."

Also, the LJ250 DECcolorwriter that could have been purchased Christmas
week for $279 was listed at $399 with a sale price of $349.

Joe

    As stated in an earlier reply, the "Getting Started" software provides
    a mechanism to create what is called "program disks" of most of the
    software which was pre-installed on the system. On the Starion 300,
    this totals to 41 diskettes.  The read-me file states "The program
    disks allow you to restore the programs should your hard drive become
    disabled."  
    
    One set of these program disks backs up MS DOS 6.22.  
    
    So, does anyone know how exactly these 'program disks' are used in a
    disabled hard disk situation?  The documentation tells you how to use
    the Getting Started software to make the program disks, but no where
    does it say how to USE them to restore the software.  And regarding MS
    DOS, if the hard disk becomes unusable, how would one even use the MS
    DOS backup?  I'm confused.
    

The first MS-DOS disk is bootable - you stick it in the floppy drive and
the PC boots from it.  You can then, if necessary, format the hard drive and
start the installation.

41 disks?  Oh yeah, the Starion comes with lots of pre-installed applications.
My Celebris needed 18 disks, I think.

				Steve

    
    	Let's see, 41 disks at $3.50 a disk, 15 minutes per my time.
    	And a CD-ROM WOULDN'T be cheaper? Hello...
    
    		the Greyhawk

     >Lets see, 41 disks at $3.50, 15 minutes per mytime.
     >And a CD-ROM WOULDN'T be cheaper? 
    
    For who? 
    
    As with so many of these dumb decisons someone saves a buck in an
    engineering area, we spend thousands in the field doing the rest of the
    job.
    
    "Saving money really means spending someone elses"

RE: .116 -< Sounds like CD-ROM time to me... >-

>    	Let's see, 41 disks at $3.50 a disk, 15 minutes per my time.
>    	And a CD-ROM WOULDN'T be cheaper? Hello...
>    
>    		the Greyhawk

$3.50 per disk?  I can buy them at CompUSA for $9.00 for 10, and can get them
even cheaper if I want to buy 100 or so (don't remember the price, but it was
much less than $1/disk).  

Even our own PC-BY-DEC catalog, which is not known for having cheap media and
storage prices, has the RX23K-FM 3.5" 2MB MS-DOS preformatted disks (box of 10)
for $15, which is $1.50 per disk...

The only reason I can see to not ship a CD-ROM with each system is that many
of the systems won't be purchased with CD-ROM drives.  Maybe the person will
add it later, but a CD bundled with the system won't do them much good.

Now, if you want to have a package which includes the CD-ROM of your system
when you purchase the bundled multi-media pack, then I could see it.  It
might also sell a few more multi-media packs...

I can see the ads now: "And if you buy the Multi-Media package with your 
system, you get *FREE* a complete set of media and documentation on CD-ROM, to
provide total protection from when your child wipes out your entire disk..."

-- Ken Moreau

    I do appreciate the reply.  However, I can't help but think that a
    section entitled something like "How To Use Your Program Disks" would
    be apprpriately included in the documentation! After all, if someone
    *really* needs to use them, the only alternative they have is to call
    Digital support.
    

    
    	OK, Ken - so I'm a little off my disk cost numbers. The rest still
    	applies. Look at all the industry statistics today (Computer
    	Reseller News just last week for example), nearly 80% of ALL
    	home PCs (ie: The Mighty Starion) are purchased with a CD-ROM
    	drive. And we are arguing documentation and media?
    	Hello... :-) (the smilie is for Ken, the Hello...is for marketing
    	and engineering)
    
    		the Greyhawk

    You don't seem to get it.  If the customer wants to create the
    backup floppies (highly recommened), they go out and *BUY* the
    floppies and then use the MKMASTER batch file to recreate them. 
    It doesn't cost us anything to use a portion of their hard disk
    to store the images.  What *DOES* cost us money is to make a CD.
    kb

    
    	Oh contrare, I get it very well. You customer, we Digital. If you
    don't like it, tough. Go buy many floppies, get furious over the next
    several days having to back them up, call our overworked support line,
    finally take machine back and tell all your friends what a *wonderful*
    time you just had.
    	As a consumer, I get it very well, thank you. And now you know why
    I just brought a MAC for my number two daughter.
    
    		the Greyhawk

    RE: .212
    
    ... and what *DOES* cost us money is the support that Digital provides
    to the purchasers of the Starions who are either 1) too novice to perform
    the backups OR 2) try but can't find documentation somewhere in the box 
    the PC came in or a readme file someplace to tell them what to do with the
    backup floppies.  
    
    An included CD sure seems like a good dose of preventative medicine to
    me!
    
     

  One of the most amazing features about a CD-ROM is that it
  is *READ-ONLY*. The nice CD-ROM that Apple provided to me
  (bundled with my Quadra-840AV, even though I didn't buy a
  CD-ROM drive configuration) booted on day 1 (using the
  nice Apple CD-ROM drive I already owned).

  It still boots.

  And if the system software dies, that ROM will *STILL* boot.
  Unless the hardware's broken, in which case it *WON'T* boot.

  But I won't need to sit there wondering whether one of those
  41 floppies went south due to old age, not getting created right,
  etc.

  As I've said before, this "make your own backup" strategy is
  an absolute disqualifier as far as I'm concerned.  And Grayhawk,
  another article (in "Info World", I think) cited Compaq as having
  a *90%* penetration rate for CD-ROM drives, at least in the home
  market.

  This is "include it/don't include it" argument is one of the
  dumbest arguments I've heard in years. The marketplace has
  already decided -- Get with the program, Digital!

                                   Atlant

    Peter,
    While it may take you "several days having to back them up",
    I bet money that your number two daughter could perform the
    MKMASTER backup to all floppies in an hour or two.  And although
    this has been pointed out to you before, I'll do it again:
    In retail, cost is everything.  People don't look at whether
    backup floppies are included or not when they buy systems;
    they only look at the price tag.  The system that costs more
    gathers dust on the shelf.  And the support issue is moot if
    you don't sell the system in the first place.  Once you get
    out of retail, cost pressures relax in favor of more educated
    buyers who tend to evaluate features.
    Kratz

    
    	OK, then unless we are making BIG money (ala COMPAQ), we should get
    out of retail. And as for buying behaviors ever ask what product moves
    the most at SAMs - COMPAQ!!! The electronics group manager at ours in
    Chicago said buyers get confused all the time over which model to buy.
    In the end, most of 'em have positive IMPRESSIONS of COMPAQ and buy
    them even if they are $200 MORE than PAckard Bell final cost.
    	No price is not everything - but REPUTATION is!
    
    	And have a nice day.
    
    		the Greyhawk

  So let me see if I understand this:

    o Compaq, the top-shelf brand, ships the CD-ROM

    o Packard-Bell, the price-leader brand, ships the CD-ROM

    o But Digital, somewhere in the middle, doesn't.


  I guess I just don't understand things as well as I thought I did.

                                   Atlant

Why not do it the way Compaq does with the Presario line...

You have a choice of either making those floppies when you setup the system,
or sending them a check for $25, in return for which you get the backup
media kit.  Worked fine for my mother-in-law -- she was so happy with the
machine, she didn't mind writing the check (preferred it over creating the
backups herself).

    Peter, Atlant,
    As pointed out by .-1, COMPAQ's Presario (i.e. retail SOHO entry) line
    doesn't ship the media either.  If you get a warm fuzzy feeling by
    comparing our retail line to their higher-end models which do ship
    with the media (as do ours), then have fun.
    kb

    
    	Hey Atlant - think we got a nerve somewhere? Doctor, hand me the
    needle, I'll do it myself...
    
    
    	moi

    Your apology is accepted.
    kb
    

>The only reason I can see to not ship a CD-ROM with each system is that many
>of the systems won't be purchased with CD-ROM drives.  Maybe the person will
>add it later, but a CD bundled with the system won't do them much good.
    
    They may not necessarily buy the CDROM drive with the system, but
    having the ROM in hand may be an added incentive to get one.
    
    That's how I convinced my wife that we should get an audio CD player. 
    I joined a CD club (ya know, get 8 CDs for the price of 1 to signup). 
    So, I had 8 CDs with nothing to play them on.  
    
    I agree with Atlant; this is a silly discussion/argument.  2 years ago,
    a friend of mine bought a Packard Bell multi-media system.   Not only
    did it come with all the CDROMs for all the games and things, but there
    was a system CDROM with the setups for most/all their multimedia
    systems, and a bootable diskette marked to the effect of "for
    emergencies only" (has bootable DOS, CDROM driver and a .BAT file to
    start a restore process from the CDROM).
    
    	Stu

    Does anyone know how much it does cost to stamp a CD-ROM (or whatever
    the correct verb is)?  I thought it was in the vicinity of one U.S.
    dollar.
    
    Chris

    It is.
    
    			Steve

    Well, you beat me too it on the exact price of the CD...  

    So, lets see if I understand - customer goes into friendly retailer and
    buys a DEC PC.  It costs - according to you people where $50 is a HUGE
    sum - MAYBE SEVERAL HUGE SUMS more than the cheap equivalent box from
    someone like Packard Bell.  THEN they get home and MAYBE they figure
    out the instructions that tell them to make some kind of backup AND go
    out and spend the INCONSEQUENTIAL sum of approximately $1.50 PER FLOPPY
    to buy a bunch of floppies (like maybe 41 - <SCREAM> 41!!!) to backup
    the system that didn't come with media?  AND THEN HOPE TO HELL IF THEY
    EVER NEED IT THAT THE FLOPPIES ARE STILL THERE, STILL WORK, AND HAVEN'T
    BEEN OVERWRITTEN BY THEIR 8-YEAR-OLD!

    ALL THIS BECAUSE DIGITAL DIDN'T WANT TO STAMP A LOUSY $1 CD AND PACK IT
    WITH THE PC. BUT WE WANT TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THIS COMPANY HAS
    HIGHER QUALITY, AND MORE CONCERN FOR THE CUSTOMER, AND WHATEVER ELSE
    THE BS PLATITUDES OF THE WEEK ARE?  Actions are A WHOLE LOT louder than
    words!!!!!!!!

    Unbelievable- <INSERT FAVORITE, LOUD, PROFANE, EXPRESSION OF DISBELIEF> 
    Digital is selling a "PREMIUM" box and won't spend $1 to guarantee a
    working backup - INSTEAD they want me to spend an extra $30-$50 and MY
    TIME to do it?...  And I don't CARE WHO else doesn't provide media with
    their cheap, knock-off box -  or is the intent to be compared to the
    BOTTOM end of the Compaq line?  Or maybe Digital is trying to be AS
    GOOD AS PB?  Yeah, now there's something to strive for!  

    Or perhaps did I miss something?
    

    > Or perhaps did I miss something?
    
    Your CAPS UNLOCK key?

    
    
    This IS a silly argument.  It seems to me that you could actually 
    SAVE the company money overall by providing the CD.  It's just 
    that the cost of not providing the CD is a cost to a different 
    part of the organisation.
    
    This seems to be a prime example of one part of the organisation
    refusing to provide a small item of benefit to the customer.  
    Another part of the organisation will have to pick up the cost 
    because this item is not provided.  
    
    I can't see a remotely reasonable argument for not providing this.
    
    Lesley
    

    Yeah, provide the CD, and let the punter order the floppies for $25 if
    he/she so desires. Simple.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

Lets take a look at several issues running here...

Why have a CD containing the disk image shipped?
	1. It saves Digital money when the customer has
	   a disk failure

	2. It makes our customer happier in the event of a
	   disk failure.

	3. Its less expensive to ship a CD than the floppies.

	4. Its a selling tool (advantage) against the competition.

# 1-3 make perfect sense for Digital and the customer...considering
that ALL Starions (200/300/400/500/700) all ship with CD-ROMS 
standard.

#4. Could be good but did you ever go into a compusa and talk to 
a sales person there?  Most of them have no idea of feature/benefit
selling.  They take the path of least resistance (brand name selling)
or move a box that has a spiff attached to it.

Jeff

    
    The sum of the notes so far is that PCBU will not ship CD because they
    do not feel that they get a benefit more that the cost.
    
    However, MCS feels that they can save a lot of support costs, if the CD
    is shipped.
    
    So the simple solution is for MCS to fund PCBU (to the tune of $3 per
    PC) to include the CD. Now every one is happy!
    
    You think such simple solutions ever get accepted? NAH!
    
    RV

    
    There has been no official reponse froma nay authorized PCBU
    person, stating that we will not ship a CD due to cost.  Comments
    from this topic have been forwarded to the appropriate product 
    managers for consideration on future products.  MCS folks making
    comments have very limited..... nah never mind, it will only make
    em whine more....
    
    Mr Moderator... I advise that you write lock this string and instruct
    all parties to take their comments to GIADEV::DECSTATION conference
    where their comments can be better monitored and responded to as
    needed.  
    
    gb
    

>   > Or perhaps did I miss something?
>    
>    Your CAPS UNLOCK key?
    
    I DIDN'T MISS IT. I WAS SHOUTING.  JUST LIKE I AM NOW!!!!!!!!!!  And if
    I wrote what I REALLY think of something like this not being done when
    we constantly parade around claiming to be a high-quality, premium
    product company, the moderator would be mailing it back to me
    INSTANTLY!  Or deleting it because of extremely vulgar, scatological,
    ancestry-questioning language!

    RE: 141
    
    Topic # 572 in the IBMPC-95 notes file is dedicated to the Starion line
    of PCs.  Glen Kelley, the Starion Product Manager has been
    participating in this conference.
    

    First, I feel this is an appropriate topic for the DIGITAL notes file.
    Certainly as appropriate as another inane turkey note would be. ;-)
    
    As an MSC person I must say that having a CD would be a big help. I
    am curious, however, if we would have to pay Mr. Bill more royalty
    dollars to ship distibution media with each sytem. That could be
    where the real costs are ... not in the pressing of the plastic.
    
    tb

re: .144

We already ship the distribution media in a compressed form, so it shouldn't
cost anymore to send it on the CD.

Bob

"Shouldn't" doesn't mean "doesn't". Does anyone in this string know
what the real issues are? Until they're known, this is all
speculation. There may very well be good reasons for the decision
having been made.

Just trying to turn on the yellow light.

Pete

re: .146

Well, I guess if Digital was dumb enough to negotiate a worse deal than all
the other manufacturers who provide CD media, then you could be right.

Bob

kb:

  I kind'a figured I'd go shopping before I apologized. You don't mind,
  do you?  If I get a reasonably comprehensive list, I'll post the
  results.
                                   Atlant

    re: Hello MArketing?? You There??
    re: 120 CD ROM with all systems
    
    We're listening (once I figured out how to use notes and where to find
    this one - listening is also a function of knowing where the talking is 
    going on) and have had a plan to put ALL software on CD that ships 
    with system. All retail systems will have a CD so that problem is
    solved. Last remaining issues are: licensing 3rd party software (are
    YOU sure that the CD that the customer has in his hot little hand will
    not end up on all the other systems in his office?), some applications do
    not support install from CD (so you need to make diskettes), what about
    configuration settings, etc.  Once we have these nailed down, we'll
    ship the CD with all systems.                                   
    
    glen kelley - starion product mabager
    
     

    
      That's good to hear. I just bailed out a customer whose 540 MB drive
    started eating itself before he had a chance to back things up. You
    run into those type of things more often in the retail market (i.e.
    I was going to wait until I created some documents before I started 
    backing up my disk, etc....). This was on a Starion 400 system. 
      FWIW - I got around it, but it wasn't as easy as it would have been
    with a CD. The customer is happy with the results, but the CD would've
    made the call easier and quicker).
    
      Glad to hear we're looking into this.

    Note, however, that if you have a cold machine and the CD in your
    hand, you won't get the machine up and running no matter how much
    software you have on the CD; a PC doesn't boot from a CD and thus
    you'd need also a bootable diskette with drivers et al set up for
    the particular type of controller & CD-ROM drive you happen to
    have.
    
    Nevertheless, a sw distribution CD-ROM standard with every box
    is very much desirable.
    
    ...petri
    
    N.B. The current DECpc XL Server (soon to be called Prioris XL) and
         the Prioris HX come with CD's that has the installation media
         et al (too bad the CD doesn't have the utility to uncompress
         the disk images on the CD ;-)
    
    P.S. The above boxes come with CD-ROM drives standard.
    
    P.P.S. They are not cheap boxes. ;-)
    

    I monitor the Starion discussion on a semi-regular basis in t IMBPC-95
    notes group. Please use that for Starion discussions.
    
    I also answer my phone - if you have a question that can't be answered
    here, give me a call.
    
    glen kelley - starion product manager
    dtn: 244-6324
    

�                    <<< Note 3479.149 by PCBUOA::GKELLEY >>>
�                             -< re: common sense? >-

�    solved. Last remaining issues are: licensing 3rd party software (are
�    YOU sure that the CD that the customer has in his hot little hand will
�    not end up on all the other systems in his office?), some applications do

Valid concerns but :)

	- hard to get a virus from a CD-ROM 

	- Yeah, the software might end up on other systems in their office
		but whose to say that wouldn't happen anyway and the
		proliferation of unlicensed software will probably be much
		less from CD-ROM than from floppies which can be easily
		copied.

 > 
 > 	- hard to get a virus from a CD-ROM 
 > 
    It's been known to happen.

>�    solved. Last remaining issues are: licensing 3rd party software (are
>�    YOU sure that the CD that the customer has in his hot little hand will
>�    not end up on all the other systems in his office?), some applications do

    
      Backups made from diskettes can just as easily end up on 'all the other
    systems in his office'. It may be more trouble for the pirate to copy
    the software this way; it is also more trouble for the customer to make
    the backups as instructed, and p***ing off the customer is not good
    business practice. Not if you want to stay in business.
      Before trying to justify the non-inclusion of a cd for this reason,
    consider the fate of 'copy-protected' software in general. There may
    have been fewer pirate copies of it; there were also fewer legitimate
    copies. The protection schemes generally made it a pain to the genuine
    user, and consequently it largely failed commercially.
    
>	- hard to get a virus from a CD-ROM 
    
      Just as easy to get one from a cdrom as from any other media. The
    difference is that if it isn't put on the cdrom when it is manufactured,
    then it can't get there later. If the cd is clean to start with, it
    cannot spread a virus infection from one pc to another.
    
    Ken
              

RE:	- hard to get a virus from a CD-ROM 
    
    IMPOSSIBLE to get a straight BOOT SECTOR virus, but easy to get a
    parasitic (a.k.a. file) virus or polymorphic (has both file and
    boot phases) virus.
    
    That is why the SSBs are SO careful about masters!!!!

    
    	I personally think the PCBU should be congratulated for listening
    	and acting positively to solve a problem for the benefit of our
    	customers.
    
    	Now if that is a virus, how do we infect the rest of the firm?
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

    re:151
    
    The plan would be to have a bootable floppy with the required CD
    drivers and DOS necessary to boot a system, format the hard drive and
    re-FIS the software.
    
    glen kelley

    re: 153
    
    The software licensing issue is a valid one - one that is being driven
    by the software vendors. They would like to have assurances that a CD
    with their software will be hard to copy. A CD makes it very easy to
    copy. 
    
    Also, CD can be scratched, which ruins the FIS (this has happened on 2
    occasions).
    
    glen kelley

    re: 155
    
    Not sure that anyone is considering "non-inclusion" of CDs. We are
    going to include a CD, just not today (maybe in about a month - depends
    on resources - retail has design cycle of less than four months now,
    its real hard to get everything done in that amount of time).
    
    glen kelley

�                    <<< Note 3479.156 by MINOTR::BANCROFT >>>
�                                 -< Possible >-

�RE:	- hard to get a virus from a CD-ROM 
�    
�    IMPOSSIBLE to get a straight BOOT SECTOR virus, but easy to get a
�    parasitic (a.k.a. file) virus or polymorphic (has both file and
�    boot phases) virus.
�    
�    That is why the SSBs are SO careful about masters!!!!

As well they should be.  I wasn't trying to imply that CD-ROMs were 
virus-free.  However, the virus needs to be on the source and given that 
CD-ROMs are still not quite as easy to make as floppies by the rank and 
file, the proliferation of viruses should be limited.

    >The plan would be to have a bootable floppy with the required CD
    >drivers and DOS necessary to boot a system, format the hard drive and
    >re-FIS the software.
    
    But you can't know whose/what CD-ROM the user in what/whose
    controller & thus you can't know what/whose CD-ROM drivers
    to put on the bootable disk. ;-)
    
    Anyway, you do need a bootable disk to start with & hope
    that the owner has the CD-ROM drivers that hopefully came
    with the CD-ROM drive & figures out how to get "from here
    to there" with that.
    
    ...petri

  Gee, on my Macintoshes, I just stick the CD-ROM in the drive and
  boot it up. :-)
                                   Atlant

    re .163
    
    Yeah, but you've got to hang onto the mouse button the whole time
    you're browsing menus...

Re: .162

The Starion systems all come with a CD-ROM drive so we know what drivers
to include.

				Steve