Conference 7.286::digital

    Remember the pay scales in the U.K. are low even compared with other
    places in Europe. Last time I checked the rates were between one half
    and two thirds of what one might expect in the U.S. The cost of living
    and taxes are higher. Local legislation has a strong hand in
    determining what severance payments must be made. 

    Also remember that labor legislation concerning redundancy packages
    differs from one country to another, just like holidays, working hours,
    etc. It's probably more expensive to make an employee redundant in
    country A than in country B. There's not a lot that Digital can do about
    this as it is bound to abide by the laws of all countries in which it does
    business.
    
    Maybe the legislation covering redundancy packages is more generous in
    the UK than in the US?
    
    Salut,                         
    Edward

    Can someone in England tell us whether the TFSO there is _mandated_ by
    law? If so, we have no beef here in the US. But if it is not mandated
    by law, we here in the US are going to raise hell.
    
    Stand by ...
    
    kbs
    

    re: .3
    
    Why would you want to "raise hell"? Do you want DEC to institute a
    practice of only offering what is mandated by law (which in the US
    ain't much)? The fact that accepted practice varies from country to
    country is just a fact of life. If you don't like it, move, or have 
    the laws changed (like the recent plant closing laws in the US).
    
    	Dave

    I'm not in the UK anymore - transferred permanently to the US as of
    30th May after a 3 year Intntl Assignment.  My whole group in the UK
    was TFSO'ed, including one who was in the US on Relo at the time.

    As a 16 year Digital veteran, this person was entitled to the UK
    package, which came close to 2 years pay, including some US severance
    benefits, plus allowances for termination of a relo contract.  The
    package in the UK and in other European countries *is* controlled by
    law to some extent but it is mostly part of the infrastructure of doing
    business.  Redundancy money has become factored in to the cost
    of doing business.  
    
    Severance packages are controlled by law to have minimum cash values,
    but there is also a period of qualification, under which you might get
    nothing.  There is also the very great risk that your employer goes
    under, in which case you also get very little.  Unions will negotiate
    additional terms over and above the minimum mandated requirements and
    these can be written into a contract of employment, providing for some
    job security.

    [There are also arbitration organizations that allow employees to
    gain some redress against employers who are laying-off workers in an
    attempt to ensure that lay-offs are fair and non-discriminatory.]

    It's impossible to make reimbursement comparisons between different
    countries with radically different social structures.  Dozens of
    reasons: Many UK personnel opt to take a company car as part of their
    reimbursement.  This disappears with the job and you suddenly find
    yourself in a position where you have to spend your severance pay on a
    vehicle to get to the next job;  Mortgages are hugely expensive
    compared to the US. 
    
    On the other hand your health care is cheap and College education is
    state funded for the large part (c/f US), so there is less worry in
    being laid off in the short term.

    The actual money received is irrelevant and has to really be considered
    as a kind of "savings scheme" funded by relatively lower wages and
    higher taxes over the years.  Because of this kind of approach to
    reimbursement, Digital's UK pension fund is overflowing with cash to
    the extent that the Corporation did NOT have to put much into the pot
    last year.

    Simplistically:  In the UK, the gov't encourages your employer to salt
    away some cash for you.  In the US, you don't want the gov't anywhere
    near the employer-employee relationship hence your 'package' is
    essentially goodwill from your employer.

    Regards,

    Colin

re .0

Dave, you *know* that terms of employent differ from
country to country.  To quote the usual example, in the
UK you get a minimum of four weeks "vacation" time.
On the same basis, this seems to be a trifle unfair to 
US-based employees as well.  Particularly since the
US work week is 40 hours rather than 37� hours.

At least 3 months of that pay is the notice period; I'm
pretty certain that when I signed on in the UK the period
of notice of termination was 3 months.

    Is it not also true in the U.K (and perhaps Europe in general) that you
    must give some long period of notice as well if you intend to
    quit?
    
    I remember a long time ago working with someone who relocated from
    Europe (Germany I believe but am not certain) who told me that you
    needed to give something like 5 weeks notice and even then you could only
    leave at the end of a quarter.
    
    Has no relevance to the topic of TFSO but I am just curious.
         
    Larry
    

Yes: "notice" is a two-way commitment as to the notice which 
must be given in order to terminate ones employment.

The authors of .0 and .3 seem to feel that it is wrong for UK employees to be
offered a more generous TFSO package than US employees get.  In the interest of
fairness, I propose the following solution:

1)  The UK TFSO package will be changed to be the same as the US one.

2)  Every UK employee, including those getting TFSO'd, will have his salary
    changed to be the same as the average salary for the same (or equivalent)
    job classification in the US.  This change will be retroactive to the date
    of hire.

I suspect that most UK employees, who are models of integrity, would be willing
to accept this.

    Hi,
    
    I'd love to accept the swap to US severence and US salaries!  I'd also
    like US taxes and US mortages.  What I don't think I'd like is US
    health-care costs, US education costs, US leave.  :-)
    
    btw: The "three months notice is in our contract of employment, but the
    UK law states that the notice is equivalent to how you get paid, eg: an
    hourly paid worker is entitled to 1 hours notice, weekly - 1 week,
    montly - 1 month.  I've heard that a monthly paid employee could give
    Digital a months notice and go - any court would consider three months
    notice as not being realistic.  Mind you - I've not heard of anyone
    trying it!
    
    regards
    
    Chris
    

    Having worked in more than one country, I can assure you, that there
    are many benefits to living and working in the United States, that
    don't exist in other countries...
    
    Australia for examples, has a standard 5 weeks vacation, (with a 17.5%
    loading salary loading), long service vacation after 15 years, and so
    on. But then, we have consumer prices 2 to 5 times those in the U.S.,
    a 50% marginal tax rate, and a bozo gummint. (Well, everyone has one of
    those...)
    
    q
    

    .7)
    The law knows two type of people beeing employed,workers and employees.
    The notice for workers is just 2 weeks,thats it.
    The notice given to employees increases from 6 weeks to the end of a
    quater to 6 month to the end of a quater after 12 years of employment.
    If you want to quit its always 6 weeks to the end of a quater year.
    By the way,after almost 20 years with Digital my job is gone and beeing
    a type of TFSOed.
    Joachim Bauch,Field-Customer-Digital-Multivendor Services Hamburg GY.

    I can't speak for the US, but in the UK it is not legally possible to
    make people redundant unless you can prove you no longer have a need
    for the skills and qualities they can offer. The "package" is intended
    as a "sweetener" to avoid costly law-suits. The legal minimum payment
    is one week's pay per year of service, outstanding holiday pay, and
    your notice period if you don't work it.
    
    Laurie.

>>                                             The "package" is intended
>>    as a "sweetener" to avoid costly law-suits. The legal minimum payment
>>    is one week's pay per year of service, outstanding holiday pay, and
>>    your notice period if you don't work it.
    
>>    Laurie.
    
    
    How much of a "sweetener" do you think the package will be when, after
    30 June, it tumbles to one week's pay for each two years at DEC -- or
    less? I am reliably infomed that, when sued, DEC drags a trial date out
    for an average of two years, and then settles out of court rather than
    accrue further suit expenses and -- this is particularly germain --
    have to make public in court how it operates.
    
    Lawyers know this, of course, so there is a huge mob of them willing to
    take an employee's case against DEC on the 1/3 contingency basis. They
    then pass the two years filing routine paperwork and then settle out of
    court. It's an easy bunch of money for the lawyer, and if the plaintiff
    can wait the two years, a nice bunch of money for the plantiff as well.
    The trick is to sue DEC for far more than they will be willing to
    settle for. DEC also knows that, in the past, when an
    ex-employee has sued for mistreatment by a large corporate employer,
    juries have found for the plaintiff _87%_ of the time. 'Them's good
    odds,' as they say. So, according to people who say they know, suing 
    DEC is a winning proposition for anyone who has been beaten-up by DEC,
    has good documentation and witnesses, can wait several years for a 
    settlement, and has a hungry lawyer working on a contingency basis.
    
    kbs
          

    
    RE: .14
    
    Intersting stuff.
    Do you know it to be a fact, or is it something you heard from a
    friend? 
    I am not knocking it, just curious.
    

re .0

Anyway, I think the base note is wrong.  I'd heard that if
you're going to be TFSO'd you should move to France.  The "package"
is (was?) even better there.

Anyone know the details?

    Re several
    
    As I pointed out in .0 it is not just 3 months pay you get plus 1 month
    per year of service, it is 6 months plus 1 month per year of service.
    3 months of that is NOTICE but from comments in the UK_DIGITAL
    notesfile it appears most people are just told to not come to work
    during that 3 months. In theory also they're saying that during those
    first 3 months you're not allowed to get a job elsewhere. The other 3
    months is just straight money. You can work for somebody else during
    that 3 months.
    
    I sill haven't seen any convincing reasons as to why there is such a
    huge disparity between the TFSO packages.
    
    Dave

    I'm returning from disability. All I get is 13 weeks looking for a job
    then 8 weeks severance pay. So much for fourteen years of work!

                      <<< Note 2522.18 by GUCCI::KMANN >>>
                             -< DECedent behavior >-

>    I'm returning from disability. All I get is 13 weeks looking for a job
>    then 8 weeks severance pay. So much for fourteen years of work!

All you get is 21 weeks!  There are a lot of folks who have gotten 1 week 
or less.  Count yourself lucky!

    
    
    > I sill haven't seen any convincing reasons as to why there is such a
    > huge disparity between the TFSO packages.
    
    Dave,
    
    Not everyone will get the "garden leave". It's discretionary and it may
    suit *Digital* to do this.  Current UK employment legislation says that
    certain workers and employers qualify for mandatory notice of
    termination of employment.  Only certain workers qualify for notice,
    there's a minimum term of employment (maybe a year).
    
    In lieu of notice, an employer will often substitute paid leave.  On an
    individual basis, and outside of the unusual circumstances of lay-offs,
    the employee and employer usually *negotiate* the terms of notice,
    generally around the time it takes to find a replacement. Most of my
    ex-employers let me go in a month because I wanted it that way.
    
    For the purposes of calculating tax and social security contributions,
    the employee is still considered to be employed, and taxes are
    deducted. I don't think anything prevents the employee from getting
    another job other than the 20% unemployment figures for some UK
    regions.   I'm a bit out of touch, but that's the gist of it.  
    
    What it boils down to is: Given that there is a legal requirement for
    notice, how much useful work do you think you will get out of someone
    who *knows* they only have three months to go?  Alternatively, how much
    damage could a "future disgruntled ex-employee" do in that time? Would
    you want this person working in a sensitive area or project?
    
    Added to that, Digital sets its own agenda for losing headcount, which
    is based on a number of external factors.  Again, it may be the best
    thing for Digital to reach for the cheque book and terminate someone
    early, in order to send the right signals to Wall Street, meet
    quarterly goals etc.
    
    Colin

    re <<< Note 2522.16 by MU::PORTER "pledge week - send me some money" >>>

>re .0
>
>Anyway, I think the base note is wrong.  I'd heard that if
>you're going to be TFSO'd you should move to France.  The "package"
>is (was?) even better there.

    Having recently come off an international assignment, and having
    suffered very much financially from it, I'd treat any overseas move
    with caution, unless you had all angles covered...
    
    q
    

>    I sill haven't seen any convincing reasons as to why there is such a
>    huge disparity between the TFSO packages.

    You seem to have a problem with the fact that employees in different
    countries get compensated differently. Maybe if you took a look at the
    whole compensation picture (UK vs US) this wouldn't bother you.

    -Bruce

The idea that employers must prove that positions are redundant, not people, is
interesting. I suspect it was a well-intentioned measure to ensure that employers
did not arbitrarily lay people off. However, I wonder if in reality it works out
that way. What's to prevent an employer from saying, "We are closing this plant,
therefore all positions there are redundant?" To me the term "redundancy" sounds
like an insulting euphemism for "lay-off". Be straight and honest about it. It's
not a pleasant situation either way, but at least show some dignity.

The UK deal is one months gross salary for every year of service, plus 3
more. The notice period remains at 3 months, during which you receive your
normal taxable salary. The redundancy payment is made at the end of this
"garden leave" or earlier if you choose to terminate yourself (to go to
another job typically).

However, a lot of you folks don't calibrate the compensation packages before
making your assumptions. Last time I saw USA salary scales, I was paid the
same in $ terms running a $70M/year DECdirect Software Business as what is
referred to in the USA as an "Administrative Assistant".
								- Ian W.

>> bozo gummint. (Well, everyone has one of  those...)
    
Ours is BIGGER than yours ;^)

    I keep hearing about the difference in pay between the UK and US.  Ok,
    what is the average wage class 2 and wage class 3 and wage class 4
    employees in the UK.  I'm looking for non-managerial employees.  I find
    it hard to believe I'm being paid 2X what my counterpart in the UK is
    being paid.  Please enlighten me.

    Thanks,
    Jim Morton

    It's not only a matter of pay differences, but also lifestyle
    differences. My wife couldn't believe it, when we were living in
    Murricah, and the gulf war was on, and local housewives, were talking
    about car-pooling to go to the market to get groceries. (3 minutes
    away) because of the rise in the cost of gasoline.. At that stage it
    was $1.10. Most countries pay more than US$3.00/gallon.
    
    q
    

    I've not lived in the UK, so please excuse my ignorance.  Are you
    trying to say that ALL cost of living is more expensive in the UK, as
    compared with the US?  Or were you just saying gas was more expensive?

    I've been getting the impression that the cost of living is LITTERALLY
    3 times that of the US and that pay is Half that of the US.  If that
    perspective is wrong, please correct it.  I'm still finding it hard to
    believe that the UK is in such pathetic economic situation, and the the
    entire workforce of the UK is in poverty.  Is that really the case?

    Jim Morton

Re: .28

I do a fair bit of travelling around the world.  I find that within Digital
lifestyles are roughly similar in the countries I have visited.

For example, on salaries, an Analyst/Programmer in Brazil is paid around US$1000
per month.  In Sydney, Australia (population 3.5 million) US$2700 per month. In 
Perth, Australia, (population 1 million) US$2400.  But then the cost of living
varies a lot in those cities.

I know contractors in Sydney paid US$30 per hour, and for the same work in 
London US$63 per hour.  On the expense side, I can eat a Mexican meal in Sydney 
for US$25 and in London I paid US$85.

The Digital people I know in Brazil, Boston, London, Mexico, Sydney etc etc own
an apartment, a car, furniture, sometimes a summer house, have lunch occasionally
in restaurants etc etc.  In other words their lifestyles are very similar.

It's just a simple fact of life (and economics) that income and cost of living 
are both higher in N.Y. city, for example, than they are in a town with a 
population of 5000 in the American mid-west.  An accountant on Wall Street
quite possibly gets paid more than one working in the Bronx.

It's got nothing to do with "the UK being in such pathetic economic situation".
It's just the fact that economics of income and expense is a "local" situation
everywhere in the world... every continent, every country, every city, every 
suburb!

regs

    According to the last available report (FY '92), DEC Germany paid DM 
    504,931,911.21 in salaries during that year, and had 4599 emplyees at
    the end of the year (much fewer now, needless to say). A simple
    division would give an average annual salary of of DM ~109,790 (US$
    ~67,700) or US$ ~5640 / month.
    
    Here in Munich, a Mexican meal would cost more like $25 than $85
    (though I find $85 in London a bit too high; in my experience, eating
    out in London doesn't significantly differ from Munich). You can get a
    Bavarian meal (with a pint of beer) for $10.
    
    All this is rather moot though...

    re: CSC32::MORTON
    
    I am on a currently working on a three year assignment in the UK, from
    the US.  When I first came here, I found it hard to believe how little 
    people are getting paid.  I work closly with about 8 engineers, they
    are getting paid �17-23K, at todays current exchange rate that is
    $25.5-34.5K.  On top of getting paid less, they pay more for nearly
    everything.  My best guess is that on average things cost 50% more than
    they do in the US.
    
    -Bruce   

    There is a simple rule of thumb. What the Americans pay in $ the
    British pay in �. The current exchange rate is $1.54 - �1.00. A further
    gotcha is, if the � begins to gain parity with the $, then prices in
    Britain go up to compensate.
    
    As an example, DELL, IBM, and Compaq recently slashed the prices of PCs
    in the US by as much as 30%. They did not cut the prices of equivalent
    models in the UK because the � was gaining parity with the $.
    
    Another example. The price of the new Alpha PC is just over $6000 in
    the US. The same model, as reported in the Sunday Times, cost just over
    �6000. The Alpha PC is made in Scotland. The �-$ pricing is consistent
    across all PCs.
    
    Microsoft Access sold for $99+sales tax in the US, it sold for
    �99+sales tax (VAT) in the UK. All software is the same.
    
    Currently in the UK there is a raging controversy over the prices of CDs
    and Cars. The price of a CD in UK is about �13, say $20. The price of
    CDs in the US are about $12. The cost of cars in the US is roughly 50%
    the equivalent in the UK; and I'm talking Fords, GMs, Nissan, Toyota,
    etc. We all know about the differences in gas costs, unleaded is now   
    nearer $4/gal.
    
    A small 4-bed house on a reasonable plot of land would cost about �110K
    ($160K) around Reading/Deathpark. My in-laws sold their huge (well, its 
    huge compared to UK houses) 5-bed house with an acre of land for $160K.
    Such a house would start upwards �200K.
    
    My wife is American. We go back to the US for long holidays. The price
    differentials on clothes, groceries, baby/toddler items, hardware,
    electricals, hi-fi, televisions, books, stationary, toys, videos, etc
    is staggering i.e. 30-50% cheaper in the US. We always stock up on     
    children's clothes, certain food/hardware items, etc. Or get visiting  
    friends/relatives to bring over goodies.
    
    In terms of health care and our much vaunted NHS. Well, for adults most
    dentists in the UK will not go NHS. Its all private now and costs
    through the nose. Every month �118 ($180) National Insurance is
    deducted from my salary. I believe part of this goes toward the paltry
    State pension and part goes to the NHS. I also have deducted �38 ($58)
    company health insurance. So much for free health care.
    
    However, back to the base note. When the TFSOs first started, the US
    package was far more generous than the UK package. I don't remember
    hearing calls of foul then. Regretfully, the US package has declined
    over the years, and I fully sympathise with any US employee being
    TFSO'd today. The package in the UK is in line with what the UK
    business can afford; partly this is a reflection of the reasonable
    state of the UK finances and partly because of the relatively low
    number of employees (400 - 500) being TFSO'd.
                            
    Have no doubts, however, that if the UK could not afford the current
    package it would have no hesitation in reducing it.
    
    Angus

	When I went to work in the states, I got 3 times what I earnt in the UK.

	The rental/food/ living expenses were all much cheaper, and taxes were
	hardly noticeable in comparison.

	In the UK I was struggling to keep myself on what I earnt.

	My 1.5 years in the US enabled me to save a considerable amount, so when
	I returned, I could buy a better house, with half the mortgage, and
	managed to lift me out of the hand-to-mouth existence I had been in.

	I was also earning less than the people I worked with, who had permanent
	jobs with the company (I was contracting).

	If I had the same salary vs expenses now as I had when I was in the
	states, I would not need a redundancy package.

	However, the lower salary and higher expenses means I can't save like
	I could in the US - this is common for many people in the UK, which
	is why the industry standard redundancies in the UK look high in 
	comparison to the US.

	I have no doubt that the package will reduce if the company cannot 
	afford it, however, would digital want to be looked at as a company that
	does not compensate employees that have been loyal to it through these
	difficult years, in the same manner as its compettitors and customers
	compensate theirs?

	Heather

	Re. .31

>    I am on a currently working on a three year assignment in the UK, from
>    the US.  When I first came here, I found it hard to believe how little 
>    people are getting paid.  I work closly with about 8 engineers, they
>    are getting paid �17-23K, at todays current exchange rate that is
>    $25.5-34.5K.  On top of getting paid less, they pay more for nearly

	OK I'll bite, at the risk of sounding like a Monty Python sketch
	I get no where near �17 K and that included working over christmas
	1992. I get paid a lot less than �17K and this compares badly
	with similar positions in other companies for the same job.
	
	I have been with DEC 9 years, 6 as an engineer in the field and
	3 years as a software suport spec. in the CSC. I am not on my
	own either, I know of others with similar service etc earning
	less and some earning more.
 
	How did that sketch go..."Eeee you were lucky.."

    The difference in the pay scales can be seen if we look at the loaded
    cost of an engineer from Ayr in Scotland compared to one on the Mill.
    
    The engineer in the Mill costs 60% more that the one in Ayr. This is a
    fair comparison of todays wages.
    
    So, how much does a software engineer get paid in the US?
    
    Fraser_B

    RE: .35  by IRNBRU::BRIDGEFORD 
    
    >The difference in the pay scales can be seen if we look at the loaded
    >cost of an engineer from Ayr in Scotland compared to one on the Mill.
    
    How much for an engineer who wasn't loaded?
    

    re:-1
    
    Obviously not as 'high'.
    
    
    Fraser_B
    

    A good part of the differences you are seeing right now are because the
    value of the dollar is so low.  This makes the US look like a bargain
    to anyone who is paid in some other currency that is high against the
    US dollar (the Canadian dollar is even lower right now, so the US is NO
    bargain to our Canadian co-workers).  I spent a weekend in London en
    route to my vacation last fall and was amazed at how fast my dollars
    vanished - and I didn't do anything especially expensive while I was
    there; my money just wasn't worth much.  Cheap dollars are good if you
    are an American company wanting to export US-made goods, because they
    look cheaper in foreign currencies overseas.  It is not so good if you
    are an American worker who might want to buy something that wasn't made
    in the US, or who might want to travel to some other country, and who
    then finds that everything costs way more than you are used to paying,
    or are able to afford.
    
    /Charlotte

>    A good part of the differences you are seeing right now are because the
>    value of the dollar is so low.  This makes the US look like a bargain
    

	It's the same as it was in 82/3/4, it then went down to 1.08 for a short
	time, back to 1.50ish for a long while, then up to nearly 2.00 for
	a short time, and is now at it's 83 level of 1.50+ish.

	It's about average at the moment.....it's the same as when I lived in 
	the states.

	Heather

RE:        <<< Note 2522.32 by SUBURB::MCDONALDA "Shockwave Rider" >>>

>>    However, back to the base note. When the TFSOs first started, the US
>>    package was far more generous than the UK package. I don't remember
>>    hearing calls of foul then.

     Are you certain of that?  I don't recall the US package ever being as
     generous as the UK package.

                                       Greg

    Years of service	Package
          0-2           40 weeks
          3-10          40 weeks + 3 weeks per year of service
          11-20         64 weeks + 4 weeks per year of service
    
    All got a year's health insurance + out placement assitance. Kinda
    started going rapidly downhill after this.
    
 Digital - A voluntary severance plan
	{The Boston Globe, 13-Sep-89, p. 69}
	{By Jane Fitz Simon, Globe Staff}
	[This is the entire article - TT]
   Faced with sluggish sales and too many manufacturing employees, Digital
 Equipment Corp. for the first time will offer voluntary severance to
 Massachusetts-based employees.
   The Maynard computer maker, which takes pride in having never had a layoff,
 will offer a generous "financial support package" to 700 employees on
 condition that they agree to leave the company.
   Digital disclosed the plan yesterday in part to quell rumors that layoffs
 are taking place. A spokesman for the company said that there continue to be
 no plans for any layoffs.
   Digital's stock, the fifth most-heavily traded stock on the New York Stock
 Exchange, closed yesterday at 99 1/2, up 2 1/4.
   Company officials last month confirmed the existence of a "working document"
 that calls on nine major departments to reduce head count by 25 percent by
 July 1991 through transfers and attrition. If implemented, the plan would
 affect an estimated 7,500 employees.
   Digital is suffering from a slump in US sales. Declining opportunities,
 intense price competition, and changing market demands are pressuring Digital
 and other suppliers of mid-range computer systems to reduce expenses and
 streamline their operations. In the fourth quarter ended June 30, the
 company's profit was off 22 percent from a year earlier.
   Digital's voluntary severance program is being offered to 500 employees
 located at a former systems manufacturing facility in Salem, and 200 employees
 based at other Digital facilities whose jobs are related to the affected
 business unit. The assembly and testing that used to be done by the
 manufacturing unit is now done at Digital plants in Phoenix, [Arizona, - TT]
 and Puerto Rico, said company spokesman Jeff Gibson.
   Since November 1988, 600 other employees who worked at the Salem
 manufacturing operation have been placed in other jobs within the company,
 Gibson said. The Salem facility, located on Northeastern Boulevard, houses
 about 1,200 other Digital employees who work for other business units. They
 will not be affected by the voluntary severance program.
   Digital has no plans at this time to offer the program to any other
 employees, said Gibson. But he did not rule out the possibility that it could
 be offered to other employees in the future.
   "It's a theoretical package that would be examined on a business-by-business
 basis if any other group decides to pursue it," said Gibson.
   The financial package is a new option in Digital's ongoing "work-force
 transition," a plan to reduce the manufacturing payroll by 4,000 this year
 through redeployment and retraining.
   Gibson said Digital offered a similar package in 1986 and 1987 to several
 hundred manufacturing employees in Arizona and Puerto Rico. But the package
 has never before been offered to employees in Massachusetts.
   Employees are being told of the voluntary option this week. Beginning in
 October, they will have 13 weeks to decide whether or not to accept the
 financial package.
   The package provides an allowance based on years of service. Employees with
 up to two years of experience will get 40 weeks of pay. Those with three to 10
 years will receive 40 weeks, plus three weeks for each year between three and
 10 years. Employees who have worked from 11 to 20 years will get 64 weeks of
 pay, plus four weeks of pay for each year served between 11 and 20 years. The
 maximum award is 104 weeks of pay.
   For those who accept the financial support package, Digital will maintain
 medical, dental, and life insurance coverage for one year. There will also be
 a limited acceleration of any restricted stock options employees may own.
 Outplacement assistance will be available.
   Gibson said that employees who do not opt for the program will be expected
 to look for other positions in the company while efforts are made to retrain
 them. There are manufacturing positions available elsewhere in the company, he
 said.
   Digital expects several hundred employees to accept the financial package,
 Gibson said. The company employs 125,800 worldwide, with 33,600 in
 Massachusetts.

>that way. What's to prevent an employer from saying, "We are closing this plant,
>therefore all positions there are redundant?" To me the term "redundancy" sounds
>like an insulting euphemism for "lay-off". Be straight and honest about it. It's
>not a pleasant situation either way, but at least show some dignity.

	Does lay off have a different meaning in the US?

	In the UK, lay off is temporary
	....discharge temporarily due to shortage of work.

	Redundancy is dismissal - out of the door
	....no longer needed for any available job and therefore liable for
	dismissal.

	Surely redundancy is the correct and honest term to use, it is 
	dismissal, it's not a temporary "re-hire next xxx" type situation.

	Heather

    
    I moved from Digital in the UK to Digital in the US a few years ago.
    For staying at the same % in the same job code I got around 40% pay
    increase.
    
    Since then I've gotten a little wiser. In both the UK and the US I
    figured absolutely every tax out (income, investment, sales, gasoline,
    healthcare) and both countries came out at 37%.
    
    The big difference though is that in the UK your discretionary
    spending is much much less than in the US. In the US when you fall on
    hard times, your only resources are ones you've put away. I'm thinking
    of medical care with no insurance, and a pension. In the UK this is all
    covered by the government.
    
    So yes in the United States you get paid more, but you have to cover
    more with that money.
    
    Simon

    
    
    >Does lay-off have a different meaning in the U.S.?
    
      In theory,  the term "Layoff" implies a temporary furlough
    		with the chance of being called back.
    
      In practice,  (Especially in the High tech industry)  Layoff
    		means out the door permanently  with no hope of 
    		returning...
    
      Back in the early days of the package, various spokespeople
    		insisted that "TFSO"  was not a "layoff",  but they've
    		been used interchangably by most people ever since
    		the beginning...
    
    

    
    > I moved from Digital in the UK to Digital in the US a few years ago.
    > For staying at the same % in the same job code I got around 40% pay
    > increase.
    
    That's the same calculation for me too.  You didn't factor in the
    possible cost of college education for your kids in future did you?
    :-O

    
>    That's the same calculation for me too.  You didn't factor in the
>    possible cost of college education for your kids in future did you?
>    :-O

	Looks like we'll be starting to charge for universities soon, by the 
	time todays kids grow up I don't expect much state subsidy for those 
	who can "afford" it.

	And pension........government pension is currently 2,964 a year, those
	people under 40 should expect no pension from the government - which
	is why pension provision by the individual has been compulsory for the
	last mumble (7?) years.

	Heather

    I think we should pursue a bit of what, IMHO, was the original inquiry:
    what should either side of the uneven policy (1 month versus one week,
    per service-year) expect in the future?
    
    We saw USA start out at 4 weeks/service-year, and cut back to one.  Is
    the UK doomed to follow?
    
    Perhaps the EC countries, with socially-installed longer vacation and 
    greater public-health benefits, create a climate where 1 week/ is untenable.
    
    This thing about comparing wages is impossible.  I once spoke with a
    Russian emigre, whose low salary astounded me.  Until I realized how
    little I got, after paying taxes, insurance, health, transportation
    (we use cars, they use public...cheap) and schools.  Perhaps the US 
    worker gets higher quality; not my point.  What comes out in the end
    is, if you are successful (local definition) supporting yourself with
    a wage, then the support of 1 month of it, vs 1 week of it, makes a 
    difference you would notice.  My friends and my wife are already there.
    
    Well, so given that the US is predicted (R. Palmer's message) to reduce
    yet further.  Are any EC/UK companies already as low as Digital/US is
    about to be?
    
    /Rich

Question from Geneva.

What does TFSO stand for?  I know that it is the package, but it is an 
acronym for what?

Kira

    Transistional Financial Support Option
    
    I don't know why they still call it an option.
    
                                          Steve J.

    
>    We saw USA start out at 4 weeks/service-year, and cut back to one.  Is
>    the UK doomed to follow?
 
	Our package was reduced twice, the seconnd one was reversed out
	pending investigation.

	Heather

    TFSO
    Thanks For Shoving Off ;^)

re .49,

  Its an option because DEC doesn't make you take the money.  You are free to
just deal with only unemployment payments.

    
    re .48:
    
    Trite Face-Saving Obfuscation
    

    TFSO:
    
    "The Freakin' Show's Over"

    re .30 and others: According to the latest issue of "Der Spiegel" (the
    major German newsweekly, comparable to Time or Newsweek), the average
    annual salary of unionized DEC employees in Germany (about 30% of the
    employees) is DM 90,000 (~US$ 56,000 or UK� 36,000).
    
    (This was in an article dealing with the current strike at Digital
    Germany - said to be the first high-tech strike in this country).
    

The rumour is true. I will be leaving Digital on 16th July 1993 after 17 
years service. Invariably, in any rightsizing process, there are people
left behind who no longer feel that new positions offered will give them
the scope to grow - or to sufficiently influence the creation of long term
wealth - for the corporation. I'm in that position right now. My new boss 
has reluctantly (he said) agreed to let me go.

It's been a pleasure working amongst all the talented individuals in this 
company, many of whom have now departed.

My current group made it's 20% bookings and profit growth goals right up to 
when the salesforce rightsizing cut in -- the second highest growth and the 
largest (& most profitable) software operation in Digital. I lost most of my 
folks to the rightsizing process. They can be proud of what they did for the
company; they did everything (and more) that I asked of them.

I wish the new team well for the future; they have world class marketeers, 
plus dedicated software sales and presales support people to help them in 
FY94. Please support this team in their mission as best you can.

I've now got the opportunity to lose some weight, get fit again, buy a PC,
take a holiday (my wife chose Boston) and go on a couple of courses that i've
not had the time to do for the last couple of years. I will be back on the 
job market around September time. I hope I don't see you there!

							Best Regards,

							Ian W.

    Sorry, to see you go, Ian. 
    
    Say, can someone point out to Mr. Palmer, that we have gone past
    chopping dead-wood (although, I have no doubt, that there are still
    hidden pockets). We now seem to be bleeding extremely talented,
    motivated, and dedicated people with every cut...
    
    This is past a headcount thing, we are now tinkering with the technical
    viability of the corporation to continue doing business...
    
    q
    

	Well, I got the package, and I'm out of here as of tomorrow.
	While you should all be grateful - think of it, this is my
	last note! I have mixed feelings about it.

	My mind tells me it's long overdue, and I should have left years
	ago, when I first sensed that the company was not going to throw
	itself wholeheartedly into selling software. As a result, I've
	wasted several years of my life doing something which I can see
	with 20/20 hindsight to have been perfectly vain: trying to
	persuade people to do something they didn't want to do, armed with
	nothing more persuasive than facts, logic and enthusiasm. 

	Emotionally, though, it's almost like going through a divorce.
	Moreover, one you didn't want or expect. You can tell yourself
	it's for the best, you can say "I'm well out of it". But you
	still get that forsaken feeling. Besides, there are so many
	people I'm going to miss. I can't even count the groups of
	people I'm going to miss: Ian Waring's team, of course; the
	CASE Partners; some of the engineers at Spit Brook Road whom
	I was privileged to meet; some of our sales people, some of our
	managers, and most of our presales people - consultants or
	whatever they are called nowadays. I'll miss the network too,
	most especially this conference and the others like it (UK_DIGITAL,
	MARKETING...)

	But a lot of the people I'll miss have already gone. So many,
	and so good, that I almost feel privileged to join their ranks.
	For instance, there was the UK Design Win team back in the late
	80s, I think probably the best team I have ever witnessed. That
	team, which was a real seed of excellence, should have been cared
	for and held up for others to emulate. Instead it got disbanded,
	almost as an afterthought, in one of the perpetual reorgs.

	For years I carefully kept a file of incidents, stories, losses,
	and ideas. My idea was to write a semi-formal paper systematically
	setting out how Digital could do better. Last week I simply
	deleted that file. What's the point? Many of us, notably David
	Carnell, have done the same thing. It doesn't accomplish much.
	That's because the movers and shakers aren't interested.

	Instead, here are a few of the things that seem most important to
	me right now:

	1. The company needs to work together as a team. To do this, the
	   overall standard of management needs to be improved drastically.
	   Specifically, managers need to quit "managing up" exclusively
	   and spend at least  50% of their time "managing down".
	   That means that managers are prepared to listen, to ask
	   questions ***and accept the answers***, to trust their direct
	   reports, and eventually to stake their own success on their
	   teams being right. In contrast to the prevalent practice
	   where the manager decides what he/she wants, calls in direct
	   reports and tells them to do it. Whether it is in fact possible
	   and desirable, or not. If anyone wants to read more about this,
	   try J.K. Galbraith's "The New Industrial State", published
	   I believe in the 60s. For more, read "Peopleware" by DeMarco
	   and Lister, one of the best business books I have found.

	2. Once managers start to "manage down" and mingle with the fine
	   people they will meet at the individual contributor level,
	   there will be a decreased need for the blind reliance on
	   metrics and numbers which is so pernicious. Managing by metrics
	   is really a lot like programming a computer: the results tend
	   to be, not what you want, but what you specified. If you want
	   people to perform to their best, like human beings, the entry
	   price is to treat them like human beings. Not resources.
	   "Management gets what it inspects, not what it expects".

	3. What numbers are needed to manage the business should be collected
	   efficiently in real time, made easily available to anyone who
	   has a need to know - which means a lot of people - in a suitable
	   form for manipulation with modern reporting tools (i.e. PC
	   tools). This means one thing: COMPUTERISED INFORMATION SYSTEMS.
	   Not the dinosaurs Digital uses today, most of which are a
	   like the "before" scenario in our own sales literature. But
	   the state-of-the-art systems leading edge companies are
	   installing and using today. Tell you one thing: we have the
	   technology, we have the people, we know the requirements,
	   and we could have good information systems within one year.
	   The biggest single obstacle is turf wars. Managers who have
	   made it to the top by manipulating the numbers, "importing"
	   results and "exporting" work to other organisations, will
	   hardly welcome having the bare facts published for all to see.

	4. Another obstacle to proper information systems, and to
	   successful business in general, is overlapping responsibility.
	   I can't see any reason why I, a humble individual contributor
	   with no experience of management except reading some books
	   and not the slightest desire to manage, must be the one to
	   point out that every business needs to be run by ONE person
	   with full responsibility, full authority, and all the resources.
	   I have seen it done both ways, and there is not the slightest
	   doubt that a single capable manager with responsibility,
	   authority, and resources gets it done. Whereas the usual
	   Digital way - a tangle of committees, vetoers, "buy-in",
	   shared funding, shifting budgets and staffing, etc., is a
	   nightmare. If it's worth doing, PUT ONE PERSON IN CHARGE.

	5. Following on from the last point, the company needs a single
	   clear image, mission, strategy - whatever. This should
	   "decompose" smoothly, i.e. Digital's Publishing strategy
	   or Aerospace strategy should be consistent with the overall
	   strategy. Or perhaps each CBU needs its own top level
	   strategy. But we have to stop "reverse engineering" strategy,
	   that is making up a strategy presentation based on individual
	   product plans, in such a way that it looks as if the strategy
	   came before the products - which it didn't. I have been
	   there, and done that. It's uncomfortable, especially next
	   year, when the products take directions quite inconsistent
	   with the supposed strategy you told clients about - and you
	   then get to meet them and explain.

	   You can see how, if each business unit has one person in
	   charge, and that person manages down, as well as being
	   very responsive to customers, it will be natural for the
	   top manager to own the strategy, and for subordinate teams
	   to have "sub-strategies" which are consistent with and go
	   together to make up the top level strategy.

	6. We need to get back to basics - Bob Palmer is very sound on
	   this. Customers should be king. We must find out what customers
	   really want and are willing to pay for, and give them it.
	   Everything else must go. 

	   But - to take a single example - just recently I went out of my
	   way to loan a workstation to a major corporate customer to
	   enable them to start a pilot which could lead to millions of
	   dollars' worth of business. The customers told me their account
	   manager never talks to them, and doesn't understand what they
	   say when he does. All he is interested in is a signed order.
	   Not only does he not understand anything technical, he can't
	   bring in anyone who does. And there you have it - we have
	   told sales to be customer-oriented, not "technical". But many
	   of our customers ARE "technical", and proud of it. When the
	   AGM heard of my action in loaning my own group's workstation
	   to one of his customers to save his business, he took my head
	   off. He said it was wrong to bypass the account manager, and 
	   told me the customer was "difficult" - always trying to get
	   something for nothing. My question: given what Mr. Palmer is
	   saying, should sales managers be seeing customers this way?

	That's it. Funny, everything I've said is organizational. Not
	surprising really. I wish I had a dollar for every customer I
	have heard over the last 19 years say (in the words of one
	IS manager)

	"Your products are so good that we are willing to put up with
	 your sales and support in order to get them".

	Given that so many customers out there still feel that way,
	and so many of our engineers, architects and marketeers have
	such great products to give them, how come Digital makes such
	hard work out of being profitable?

	/Tom

    re. .59
    
    amen tom. amen.
    
    wish i felt it would get better.