Conference 7.286::digital

    This is typical of the take-advantage attitude by certain managers, of
    the trust that KO built this company on. One of the main reasons we
    have lost so much profit in recent years. BP must start here, NOW (maby
    he'll work this Sat on it, I'll help). to eliminate the people who are 
    deceitfull (sp). 

    
    	re .0
    
    	I agree that these events cost big bucks, and their continuance
    	should be re-evaluated in these tough times, but I disagree with
    	your statement that these folks don't *deserve* it. It is, after
    	all one of their incentives to excel in their jobs. 
    
    	re .1
    
    	I don't think that you are inferring that the sales group is
    	deceitfull (sp), are you? It's not as if the sales force all of
    	a sudden decided to spend a ton of money. COE is something that
    	they work toward all year long.
    
    	John

    
    
    	re.2
    
    	The same can be said for the other award dinners that have been
    	cancelled along with Canobie Lake.
    
    	What makes one group more deserving than another ?
    
    						Mike
    						----

    
    
    	You're right. 
    
    	Reread your note. 
    
    	I agree.
    
    	Mike
    	----
    	

    
    
    re .3
    
    >What makes one group more deserving than another?
    
    	Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. I don't rememeber saying anything
    	to that effect.
    
	See 2122.85 for my views on this.    
    	John

    whoops..note collision due to my inability to edit correctly..
    

    O.K. folks this has been said before, but I guess it needs to be said
    again...
    
    When sales gets their salary pot for the year, they set aside a certain
    percentage to reward their best performers.  This is where the COE
    funding comes from.
    
    If there was no COE, then the money spent on COE would be distributed
    to the sales force in the form of slightly higher salaries.  COE is an
    attempt, not always successful, to reward people for their performance.
    
    Bob

    Okay, I understand that a lot of sales folks work hard all year to
    obtain COE, but I have seen far to many managers getting COE when the
    employees that actually did the work get short changed.  Have any of
    you seen this practice happening?  It doesn't matter where the money 
    comes from; Digital is unprofitable at the current time.  Most of the 
    people I am referring to (without mentioning any names) are overpaid 
    and underworked to start with.

    .3 Right I work all year long for my paycheck...and maby an increase,
       Unlikely in these times of budget cuts. Why should I go year to
       year without a increase in salary....while others are feel obliged
       to reward themselves with programs like COE? I don't believe the
       people responsible for involking COE really beleive its in the best
       interest of the company. IMHO it is decietfull. 
    
    

    re. 2141.7
    
      Bob, from a functional perspective, Sales does the set
    aside...HOWEVER - the business units pay for COE as the sales costs are
    allocated to their P&Ls. Now that Sales does not have a P&L, how many
    business units will be willing to pay for COE if their engineers,
    manufacturers, support people (...fill in the blank) are not a part of
    the reward's process?

    The timing of this note is good for me because I've been "fuming" the
    last several days about just this subject.  I know of instances past
    and present where the support people who ended up going out of Digital
    Services ended up being the best politically connected (what a nice way
    of saying "kissing up"!) as opposed to those who have had the most
    effect on not only customer satisifaction, but the most effect on
    actual revenue brought in.  Unfortunately, it appears that the District
    Manager is given a certain number of slots for COE....and it is up
    to his discretion as to who goes.  
    
    In the case of one individual .... this person was nominated by
    his Sales Team for the outstanding work done on a Strategic Account-
    and in this person's case we're talking about a person who has
    consistently been a top performer over the years.  This individual
    was given awards by the customer, and the Sales District as well
    as having made significant impact on Sales with SAO leads etc.....the
    only group who didn't recognize him was his own Customer Service Mgmt.
    
    The suspicious part of this particular scenario is that when the COE
    winners were picked - two managers and one engineer - no memo was ever
    sent to the troops announcing the fact.  Now that the troops are
    finding out who won, it has become a morale issue because it is so
    obvious to all concerned that this was a political decision.   
    
    I just wish there was a way to bring attention to blatant inequities
    when they occur -- unfortunately I don't believe in the confidentiality
    of the "open door" policy. 
    
    p.s.  I agree that it is unfair to cancel some award dinners 
          and not others - and COE is a MAJOR money dump.
    

     Now that Bob Palmer has announced that people in sales will earn
     commissions, should COE be discontinued?

     ---Phil

    
    
    
    COE is based on approximately twenty per cent of the sales force being
    rewarded for significant overachievement of their assigned goals.  The
    sales representatives have specific assigned budgets which they are
    requried to achieve.  All sales people then compete for who goes to
    COE.  Selection is made by; any sales person achieving 100 % percent of
    budget in 5 years they do not have to be consecutive years.  Other
    sales people are selected based on a level of actuals sales versus budget,
    normally if you achieve over 150 % of budget your chances of being
    awarded COE are good.  Now other people are nominated for COE, many of
    those people are non sales people.  This nomination is usually approved
    by at least one if not several VPs.  Granted not every employee can
    receive the benefit of COE directly.  However the sales people are the
    people who sign up to a specific Dollar budget.  
    
    Something that has bothered me for years is many people like to see how 
    other organizations award people for outstanding performance and take 
    shots at that award system.  I would like to see the company go to a 
    program that every organization has a specific award system.  EX.  take
    engineering, if a HW engineering group signs up  to design a new
    product within a certain budget and specific time frame, then the
    individuals who make it happen should be awarded, if they do not make it
    happen then no award.  I am not picking on HW engr. just using as 
    an example.  It is all about RISK!
    
    Cannobie Lake for example was a great event for the employees in the
    area.  However some people would bring not just one guest as was allowed 
    but several guset who were not direct family, ie. kids  of
    the employee.  We need to stop taking shots at the events or awards,
    we need to take shots at the people who are taking advantage of
    those events.  As Bob stated in the DVN, open discussion must happen
    based on FACTS.  If individuals see people taking apparent
    advantage of their position or some event or award, raise the issue in
    a professionl manner.  We should not automatticaly point fingers
    without first looking at the facts.  For those of you who state you
    know people who take advantage of such events as COE or other things,
    you  have a responsibility to raise the issue in a professional manner
    with the appropriate people.  If you desire not to raise the issue, do
    not complain about it.  Be part of the solution not the problem.
    
    I understand that COE is probably one of very few award events still in
    existence.  Maybe everyone should be working to have
    hundreds or thousands more sales people be winners of COE based on
    percent of actuals sales over budget.  If that were the case maybe just
    maybe we would not be in the position we are today.  Everyone working
    together, being more customer focused, could have much more of a impact
    then we give ourselves credit for.  Keep in mind that our competitors
    like HP and IBM are working very hard to beat us, we all need to turn
    our attention to beating them.
    
    Jim
    

    RE: -12
    Now that Bob Palmer has announced that people in sales will earn
    commissions, should COE be discontinued?
    
    Answer: YES, YES, YES; COE should be discontinued.  Commissions are a 
    fair way to reward the performers.  I think Palmer should pull the plug on
    COE NOW.  As one noter said: "it's a BIG MONEY DUMP".
    
    Seems to me that the only folks who think COE is a good idea are the
    ones that get to go.  Look at the list of names in your area, I bet
    most of them are political.   

    
    I am not a "NOTER" by nature, but I can empathize with 2141.11.  Some
    winners identified truly are winners (266% of revenue budget).  Others
    are "managers" who receive recognition for the contributions of their
    staff.  Lastly, but objectionably, there are some who are not
    perceived as excellent by any peer measurement, but obviously are
    politically in tune.  
    
    1. Winners are winners and should be recognized.
    2. Managers of winners also play a key role and in appropriate cases
       should also be recognized.  There are managers who have contributed 
       to their teams' excellence.
    3. COE nominations from the politically "intune" are most demoralizing on
       morale.  Unfortunately, this occurs despite the intentions of the
       COE program.
      
    Life Goes on!
    
    
    

    Managers,managers,mangaers.....blah,blah,blah. Seems like many people
    here feel management is responsible for all our troubles. I happen to
    agree. To me it sounds likes its time to eliminate all political titles
    President,CEO, VP, Manager, Supervisor etc. Are these not superficial
    titles. Why do we need them? Can't we all just be part of a team? Me
    you, him, her etc. (or by 1st name). Seems like when you have a title
    like Supervisor or Manager you end up doing things like signing
    timecards? Am I too idealistic? I don't think so. It can be changed. It
    must be.

    
    
    i'll have to agree with the folks that see COE as a waste of money,
    i really dont care if the money was budgeted into the yearly plan.
    
    a week in hawaii for each person/quest is a bit much.
    
    The awards/perks given to sales are very disproportional to the
    awards given to the rest the corporation.
    
    mike
    

    As pointed out by many, the COE may be enjoyed by some, but the net effect
    often is demoralizing because of the political (seemingly unfair)
    decisions made as to who goes and who doesn't.
    
    Any program which demotivates a significant portion of the field folks
    doesn't deserve to continue operating on the same basis. 
    
    I've gone to the COE's a couple times, but I'd be the first to disband
    the event in favor of the employee's picking what they want to receive
    as an award. That would motivate me 100 times more than being told
    to report to some event somebody in dream land cooked up as their idea
    of a reward. What kind of reward is it when you don't have a choice?
    
    erik goetze
    

    Rep to <<< Note 2141.13 by MSDOA::MULDOWNEY >>>

>    Cannobie Lake for example was a great event for the employees in the
>    area.  However some people would bring not just one guest as was allowed 
>    but several guset who were not direct family, ie. kids  of
>    the employee. 
    
    Hmmm, Kids of an employee was always allowed according to the rules for
    attendance as set by Digital.  Married Employees or Single parents were
    always allowed to bring 1 quest as well  as  any living child under 18.
    What wasn't allowed was bringing more that 1 adult  quest  over  18, or
    passing off the neighbor's kids (your sons friend) as your own.
    
    Claude
    
    PS I never heard of offspring  not being considered as part of someones
    direct (imediate) family before.

    It seems to me that many people do not understand the purpose behind
    COE.  It is an AWARD for sales people and others to drive toward.  I
    know that some people go who may not deserve it.  However nothing in
    this world is perfect, and none  of us are perfect.  
    
    I am curious if those in favor of disbanding COE, would object if
    WINNERS of the award process were to receive say a ten thousand dollar
    bonus for overachieving their sales budgets?  I would like people to
    think about how much risk they are willing to accept as part of their
    job.  I enjoy sales and I am willing to RISK both my JOB, and
    compensation against MY PERFORMANCE.  We all control our own destinys
    much more then we are willing to accept.
    
    If you think SALES has it easy in the field, give me a call or send me
    mail I am listed in ELF, I would be willing to share with you what I
    have put up with during my seven years of sales during my twenty-four
    year career at Digital.  
    
    
    Jim
    

    RE. 19
    
    Sorry I am not really a noter!  I did not mean children of employees
    could not attend.  As I stated direct family members were invited, I
    was talking about when employees would invite several and in some cases
    many guest who were not a member of the direct family.  Example,
    several children of non Digital employees would be invited to go
    to CANOBIE Lake  to accompany the children of the employee.
    
    That is what I was talking about.  Canobie really got out of hand with
    so many non digital and non digtial employee family members going.
    
    I am sorry I was not clear in my first reply!
    
    Jim
    

RE: .13

>>    I understand that COE is probably one of very few award events still in
>>    existence.  Maybe everyone should be working to have
>>    hundreds or thousands more sales people be winners of COE based on
>>    percent of actuals sales over budget.

Huh?

What about DEC100, SP2, TOPDEC, and DECathalon?

    re: -12
    Jim,
    
    No doubt many sales people go through a lot and do a lot in their job
    to be successful.  You seem to be that type of individual.  You will
    excel and people like you will be rewarded through commissions.  This
    way you are not being penalized.  As one noter stated, he/she wouldn't 
    mind giving up COE.  The winners have no choice in determining where 
    they will go.  Most of us know there is widespread abuse and it must
    stop.  Most employees work hard each and every day just to keep our
    jobs.  That's enough purpose for me.  As to your comment that winners
    "were to say ten thousand dollars".  I DISAGREE with that also.  If
    sales folks sell, then they'll get their commissions.

    re: -22
    
    DEC100 SP2, TOPDEC, etc should also be cancelled.  At least until
    Digital becomes profitable.  Are these awards still going on??
    

    Just one thought ... if a sales person is 266% of budget, I would
    question whether they really did that good a job or if they "sand
    bagged" during the budget process.  The people that should be rewarded
    are the sales people that budget agreesively and then meet their
    budget.  Being 266% of budget is a PROBLEM, not something that should
    be rewarded.

    My nit is that all the headquarters BLT's (Boot Lickin Toadies) who get
    to attend COE, DECathalon, etc, with their spouses. I think some means
    of screening out such abuse should be instituted.  The poor sales types
    are already getting hammered, these events should just be for them. tjk

	I just can't stand it anymore .... so here goes my two cents:

	re: .17 and all the rest of you that believe sales should be cut
	out of reward programs are living in a vacuum.  Now pay attention
	here:  ALL (I repeat) ALL corporations with sales forces have
	some sort of incentive program (bonus, COE, gifts, trips, commission,
	etc)  Many have combinations of several of these (such as
	commission AND COE, for example).

	Just look at what sales incentives can do for the corporations that
	have weak (from a technology point of view) products.  Oracle is
	an excellent example of a money making machine that, for the most
	part, has a weak product ... but ... boy can they sell.

	If Digital doesn't offer these programs, we're not going to get
	good sales people to { come | stay } ... period.  These programs
	are a "cost" of doing business that cannot be eliminated for they
	generate (in sales) a large return.  Yes it's true that some
	sales people "sand bag" but, by and large, that'll get you into
	about as much trouble as not making your number to begin with.

	Further, budgets are assigned to the sales force ... the lowely
	salesperson doesn't get much of a chance to say what number they'd
	like to have.  In many instances (and more often in FY93), the
	budgets are going up big time.  The Corporation decides what
	sales it wants, and the crap rolls down to the salesman.  What
	often happens in the 250 % examples is that the customer has
	an unexpected change in his business (such as a merger) that
	causes the "blue bird" order to show up that NOONE could have
	forecasted.  Where I come from, they call this being plain
	lucky.  In other cases, the salesman is { good | smart } enough
	to sniff out the opportunity, drive the solution, and sell the
	customer on the benefit.  The good salespeople (the kind that
	get COE, SP2, etc.), the kind we want, do this year after year.

	To suggest that we take this away is a going out of business
	proposition.
	
	So, the net here is simple .... give the sales force a break.
	If you think it's easy, come on out and watch an irate customer
	take the head off a sales person for some stupid decision made
	in the bowels of the puzzle palace.  Remember:  none of us have
	jobs until something is sold.  Nothing starts without a sale.
	And please ... save the chicken vs. egg argument .... sure
	we have to design products so they can be sold ... but ....
	the orders have to come in or we die (like Bull, Wang, Next).

	I'm sorry ... but life's not fair .... this discussion happens
	in every corporation where there are incentives for some and
	not for others.  And, by the way, if you want to escape the
	human nature of politics/friendship/loyalty/favoritism within big
	corporations, you'll have to leave Digital and start your own company,
	where you can call the shots. I've worked for small, medium, and large
        corporations. This behavior happens everywhere and is certainly not
        unique within Digital.

	-- gerry

    Re: .27
     Come out to the field and watch a customer take the head off the
     field service rep for something sales pushed on the customer in
     their efforts to make budget (coe).
    
     We (fse's) work hard with the customer every single day...
     ..just doing our job.
    
     If we're a team..let's start acting like one. 

    re: .28
    
    I agree with .28, the fse's along with many other support folks work 
    hard every day...and they're just doing their job.  Just doing your job 
    doesn't make anyone entitled to COE or any other reward.  There is or 
    should be a team behind everyone.  I know of cases where the same sales 
    people go to 3 or 4 awards a year (this includes managers).  This
    system is bias and needs change.

    
    In response to 2141.27, COE is not limited to sales people, but also
    has services people sent.
    

    Most of what I see in this note is a lot of envy expressed over the sales
    function's compensation plan.  The awards are (in most cases) EARNED. 
    There is a contract in force to issue the awards to those who earned
    them.  Breaking this contract would be a major breach of trust by the
    company. This would not be "the right thing" to do. Maybe next year
    we'll tell our commissioned sales force that, whoops, times are still bad
    so we won't be able to pay you your earned commission this year.
    
    If Digital wants to cut compensation, Digital should do it in a fair
    manner that effects everyone.  How many people would go along with an
    across the board 10% pay cut starting now until the good times return?
    Why do a lot of people just want to pick on sales?

    
    
    RE. 30
    
    Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
    
    Digital Services individual contributors and first line managers are no
    longer eligible for COE.  This decision was made early this year.
    
    Jon

    re .30 and .29
    
    .30 - you are correct the metrics of selecting who is eligible has
          changed.  
    
    .29 - no one is envious of the sales compensation plan.  I do not
          believe these awards are to be considered compensation.  Just
          like a Company car is not to be considered compensation.  There
          are many employees who earn these awards but a lot don't as
          discussed throughout this note.
    
    I'll saw it one more time....these awards need change and must be
    cancelled UNTIL DIGITAL RETURNS TO PROFITABILITY!!
    

    Re.27
    >ALL (I repeat) ALL corporations with sales forces have
    >some sort of incentive program (bonus, COE, gifts, trips, commission),
    
     Are you saying that Digital Sales Force is unable to make IT"S OWN
     policies. (especially in light of the tons of money the company is
     losing daily)?
    
    >Just look at what sales incentives can do for the corporations that
    >have weak (from a technology point of view) products.  Oracle is
    >an excellent example of a money making machine that, for the most
    > part, has a weak product ... but ... boy can they sell.
    
    Are you saying that if Digital had a weak product line..we should sell
    it? IMO we should not sell less than (weak) close to a perfect product.
    No salesman...no matter how persuasive or talented or experienced could
    sell me weak junk.
    
    >If Digital doesn't offer these programs, we're not going to get good
    >sales people to { come | stay } ... period.
    
    Baloney, have you seen the un-employment figures lately? There a plenty
    of well qualified sales people pounding the pavement un-employed who
    would take a job with Digital without any incentive plan included at
    the drop of a dime.
    
    >To suggest that we take this away is a going out of business
    >proposition.
    
     How can a sales staff be so attached to their little perks (there must 
     be an addiction) to say that without them we will "go out of
     business"? Try doing your job selling without the perks for a change
     at least untill the company can afford to be generous again. Is that
     possible? Or will we loose our sales staff. If that is the case it is
     clear what is important (not digital) to the sales staff.
    
     >This behavior happens everywhere and is certainly not
     >unique within Digital.
    
     Again are you condoneing this behavior just because other companies do
     it?
     
     Digital was not founded on the principals of other companies. I'm gald
     it wasn't. I hope we can ressurect the philosophy that made this a
     billion doller company and gave so many people a chance to contribute.
     Say nothing of putting food on the table for 100,000 ++ people.
     

    re: 33

    The awards have been earned.  We do not have the option of canceling
    earned awards. An ethical company would not do this even when times are
    bad. The COE award commitment must be honored.

    If the company wants to cancel future awards before people start
    working towards them, that would be an ethical option. This would be
    similar to cutting pay for future work.

    As with most notes responses, people are reacting in a vacuum.
    
    DECawards are not perfect, in fact they are based on the matrix mgmt,
    non-commissioned salesforce culture of the days when DEC sold mostly to
    OEM's who sold to end users.
    
    Our terminology is based on this premise - BUDGET rather then QUOTA. 
    CERTS rather then REVENUE.  ?????? rather then MARKETING.
    
    Even though Ken said we were a marketing company, we have been a
    technology company.  Help the customer configure their systems and
    figure out what went wrong after the system arrived.  Publish a good
    manual rather then have sales people capture market share.
    
    When I joined Digital 6 years ago as a Sales Rep (again, old
    terminology vs ACCOUNT MANAGERS used by our competitors), my unit was
    leaving for a 3-night Caribbean cruise for DEC100.  I joined this
    organization based on the excitement, enticement and comradierie that
    this trip had infused into the local units.  I was determined to win
    that trip for me and my wife.
    
    I found out later that when our area sales folks hit the Miami airport,
    they ran into other salesfolks from across the country who were coming
    to Miami for a one-night stay at a hotel.  Well, the next year our area
    was like them - one-night hotel stay (talk about let downs).
    
    An interesting fact is that our area was the top area while these trips
    were being used as incentives.  The next year we dropped like a rock.
    
    I also have been very discouraged by the COE. Whenever a trip like that
    (Hawaii, Australia, etc) is as incentive, it should be based on merit. 
    Our measurments of sales is rather subjective as has been pointed out
    earlier.  Most sales organizations believe in true goal setting.  That
    is the salesperson helps set a goal that is a stretch but obtainable. 
    They also set a much higher goal for such an incentive as the COE trip,
    but every individual knows what his/her own personal goal for that trip
    is (i.e 150% of quota = big trip).  The trip is paid for because of the
    incremental revenue of the 50% over the goal.  With Digital's plan, I
    am just waiting for my 5th year for DEC100 because my territory is
    remote from my management and we see each other rarely and I do not
    have the opportunity for the exposure that "might" be necessary - so,
    in effect, it is not an incentive for me unless like a previous note
    said, I happen upon a blue-bird order.
    
    So, my recommendation is to have a true commission plan based on monthly
    performance against a true goal - not an arbitrary CERTS number from
    the Top Down.  Don't put a cap on it, make it truly worth the
    salespersons extra effort to hit it big.  The happiest sales forces are
    those complaining that somebody made too much money and hoping they
    can do the same.  Reward all employees with group trips to local
    resorts for making group goals.  Create a big trip for anyone hitting
    the really big goals, not a certain percentage/number per unit etc. 
    Make overachieving goals a tremendous opportunity, not a
    bureaucratic/political game.
    
    Tie profit to reward, customer satisfaction to reward, efficiency and
    cost/reduction/avoidance to reward.  

	COE ought to be costing the company quite a bit less than it did,
	say 5 years ago. After all, we're losing money at a good rate,
	so clearly, the sales force doesn't have anywhere near as
	many folks qualifying for COE as when the company was profitable.
	Right?

				Tom_K

    I have the sneaking suspicion (based on no data whatever) that -.1's
    point is that the attendance list has not shrunk...?
    
    ?
    

    ��� Re: .28 ... good point, the field engineers and the CSC people have
	long been overlooked for "awards" and recognition.

    ��� Re: .33 ... I'm sorry, but all the things that show up on your
	W2 are by definition, compensation.  SP2, COE, gift certificates,
	CAR ALLOWANCES are all taxable.  I'm on can plan B.  If I ever
	leave the company, you can bet that I'll add the $2400 dollars of
	plan B to my salary as a minimum starting point.  After all, that's
	home much gross money in my compensation.  So, let's don't play
	games with the definition of sales incentives (such as SP2, DEC100,
	COE, etc).  They're all part of the compensation if you're eligible.
	Yes, I know, not all groups have incentives ... I can't change that
	and clearly, it's not right.  But the point we've got to remember
	is that Digital is not out in left field on this issue of incentives.
	Perhaps the administration is goofed up ... but not the business
	justification.

    >ALL (I repeat) ALL corporations with sales forces have
    >some sort of incentive program (bonus, COE, gifts, trips, commission),
    
     Are you saying that Digital Sales Force is unable to make IT"S OWN
     policies. (especially in light of the tons of money the company is
     losing daily)?

    ��� Don't know what you mean ... but what I'm saying is that you're
	just not going to be able to attract and keep good sales people
	without incentive programs.  It really doesn't have that much to
	do with "policies" per se ... it's just the nature of the
	occupation of sales.  Car, electronics, clothing, insurance,
	real estate, beer vendors at the ball park, etc. ALL have incentive
	programs.  The salesman that goes crazy with his sales and nails
	his budget shouldn't be hurt by the fact that the company didn't do
	well in other areas.  Perhaps we all should take a pay cut ... that'd
	be OK with me.  If you've ever worked for a company that has "gain
	sharing" (which is very popular in manufacturing), it is very likely
	that some people get bonuses and incentives even while the company
	as a whole is doing bad, even losing money.  I worked for a mfg
	company for 7 years.  Every quarter, the Penn. plant got gain sharing
	because they exceeded their goals for productivity, cost containment,
	rework, quality, and shipments on time.  At the same time, none of
	the other plants were able to make the gates for gain sharing so they
	didn't get any money and often, the division lost money in some of
	the quarters.  The point is, offering sales incentives is not unusual
	behavior.
    
    >Just look at what sales incentives can do for the corporations that
    >have weak (from a technology point of view) products.  Oracle is
    >an excellent example of a money making machine that, for the most
    > part, has a weak product ... but ... boy can they sell.
    
    Are you saying that if Digital had a weak product line..we should sell
    it? IMO we should not sell less than (weak) close to a perfect product.
    No salesman...no matter how persuasive or talented or experienced could
    sell me weak junk.

    ��� I agree ... but ... believe it or not IBM STILL sells big CICS
	systems and turned a lousy AS/400 product into a multi-billion dollar
	business, primarily through the efforts of their sales and marketing
	organizations.  Noone advocates selling junk ... but ... the reality
	is this:  you sell what you have.  The market dynamics are such that
	you just can't wait for perfect products.  The "windows of opportunity"
	close much too fast.  But, in the end, the customer doesn't buy
	anything just cause the salesman want's him/her to ... the customer
	perceives value and freely cuts the PO.  The talent the salesman
	brings is the ability to explain the features, functions, and benefits
	of his product to the prospective customer.  Many customers don't
	need perfect products ... they need something that's going to work
	and be supported.... ie they don't need the fenderskirts on the car
	after all.
    
    >If Digital doesn't offer these programs, we're not going to get good
    >sales people to { come | stay } ... period.
    
    Baloney, have you seen the un-employment figures lately? There a plenty
    of well qualified sales people pounding the pavement un-employed who
    would take a job with Digital without any incentive plan included at
    the drop of a dime.

    ��� I have to disagree.  The good sales people won't come to ANY corporation
	without some sort of incentive plan.  It you have to choose between
	corporation A at $xx dollars, no incentive plan .. or .. corporation
	B at $xx dollars with yy incentive plan, what would you do IF you
	were a professional salesman ?  You take door B ... this is the way
	salesman think ... they're not like you or me ... they are, if you
	will, bred for the thrill and challenge of making budget, beating
	out the other salesman, etc.  They're not crazed animals or anything
	like that ... but my observation is that they get just as much
	thrill out of the sales "process" as an engineer writing a device
	driver that works really well, or a CSC person who finds an EXACT
	answer to a critical customer problem.  

	Further, we probably don't want too many of the unemployed sales people
        wandering the streets.  The type of skills required for our SI and NW
        services businesses and the mission critical, big ticket deals aren't
        easily found.  Experience in the sales position is very important and we
        just can gamble our future on unknowns.  This is why we've got to keep
        the salesman we have and make the environment attractive for the IBM,
        EDS, HP, Oracle... salesmen to join us.
    
    >To suggest that we take this away is a going out of business
    >proposition.
    
     How can a sales staff be so attached to their little perks (there must 
     be an addiction) to say that without them we will "go out of
     business"? Try doing your job selling without the perks for a change
     at least untill the company can afford to be generous again. Is that
     possible? Or will we loose our sales staff. If that is the case it is
     clear what is important (not digital) to the sales staff.

     ��� Again, incentive plans aren't perks and it doesn't have anything
	to do with being profitable or generous, and, yes, the harsh
	reality is that to some people (sales, field service, engineering,
	management, finance, services, and on, and on) their personal
	well being and focus is their compensation (including incentives).  I'm
        not saying this is right or wrong ... ... it's a personal decision and
        philosophy but you just can't condem them for this approach to life.
    
     >This behavior happens everywhere and is certainly not
     >unique within Digital.
    
     Again are you condoneing this behavior just because other companies do
     it?
     
     ��� Well of course not ... but we've got to get our heads out of the
	sand on this issue of sales incentives and the reality of human
	relations.  From the day you started school, till the day you die,
	you'll encounter unfair, biased, and unappropriate favoritism.
	I, like you, hate this stuff ... but you just can't wish it away
	or believe it doesn't exist.  

     Digital was not founded on the principals of other companies. I'm gald
     it wasn't. I hope we can ressurect the philosophy that made this a
     billion doller company and gave so many people a chance to contribute.
     Say nothing of putting food on the table for 100,000 ++ people.

     ��� Absolutely, we all do ... but we've got to get off this "bash the
	salesman because they get incentives as a part of their compensation"
	kick.  SP2, DEC100, COE, etc. didn't just show up this year ...
	these items have been part of Digital's culture for a long time.

	Let me end with this:  my wife and I were talking the other night ...
	working on our will ... talking about the next few years ... worrying
	about our kids future.  After talking for some time, we came to the
	same conclusion:  in the years to come, nothing is going to be the
	same as it was the past 5, 10, or even 2 years.  Things are different
	now and likely to be radically different a year from and the year
	after.  Our (both Digital and us as individuals) role is to learn
	to look forward and not in the rear view mirror.  Clearly we can't
	forget the "good times", our values, and experiences.  	We're all going
        to have to work through this VERY difficult period of change.  

	so .... I'm logging off, gonna' get in my car, and drive off
	looking out the windshield 
	

    re:  34 - - RIGHT ON!
    
    Just a note-I don't think that this note is an attempt to bash
    Sales - I think that it is an opportunity to look at how Digital
    can and should reward not just Sales, but ALL functions.  The
    sensitivity around COE this year has ALOT to do with the fact
    that people are losing jobs left and right, and the rest of us
    are trying to plug up all the holes left in the dike.  In the
    meantime, the stock price is "blah", we're losing money, and
    reorganizing every 2 months.  Yeah, I think it is definately 
    time to look at this issue and be realistic about how these
    programs are administered/paid for/awarded etc.
    
    How many of you know of Customer Service Engineers who make
    sales pitches to the customers-and in some cases help close
    very large orders, only to receive a heartfelt thanks from
    their Sales Rep, and a $100 dollars to spend at Sears?  Then
    the Sales Rep is off to Hawaii while the engineer is hoofing
    down to Sears...... 
    
    Doesn't seem quite equitable does it???????
    
    

    
    I'd advise all to listen to .39.  There is a famous line that goes,
    "Nothing happens until somebody sells something".  The rest of us
    produce, support and service the products that Sales sells.  We 
    have to realize that without Sales, there is no company.
    
    The problem has been that Digital hasn't a clue how selling works.
    
    The very best salespersons can make in the neighborhood of 
    $250K/yr.  They earn it.  Lets put the programs/systems in place
    to attract those people to Digital.  We need them.  There are 
    those out there that believe our products are no better than
    Oracle.
    
    Perhaps we could do better to give every bit of support we can
    to our salespeople.  Who knows, it might save our own job!
    
    I personally could care less about a trip to Hawaii, I'd much
    rather keep feeding my kids.
    
    dmc
    

    There needs to be sales awards.  I agree with .39.  Acompany
    does not make money until they sell something.  I am in services
    sales,  and in my position am eligible for COE.  I did not make
    it this year, but made DEC100.  I know of some people in my
    group that made COE, and they damn sure earned it!  I am not
    saying that other functions don't earn any type of w  award,
    but when I see sales reps and service saales people bustin
    there butt 14-18 hours a day, they deserve something.  Just
    remember, alot of these people are wc4, and don't get overtime.
    Most people at DEC can walk away from their desk at the end of the
    day and know they did their job, a sales rep has a number over
    his/her head year round.  You got to make that number.
    If ou    you don't sell, you make no money.  You make no money,
    hey, lay off more people.  Sales is the bread and butter to this
    company.  Don't slit the throat of this company!
    
    If you get rid of COE, DEC100, SP2, and go commision, a lot more
    money might go to the sales reps.  I would rather have had money
    instead of DEC100.  But I will tell you what, you have your award,
    it gives your more drive and motivation to blow your number out
    of the water next year.
    
    If you don't take care of your sales people, they will go somewhere
    else, and you can't balme them.  Whoops, that's supposed to be
    you can't blame them.
    
    	Geez, this is prpobably looking like crap right now, I am
    on my sytem at home and the backspace key does not work for
    somereason when using the modem.  What is my backspace key?
    
    In summary, you have to award sales with something.  Of course,I speak
    of the overachievers.
    
    bob
        fiana

    RE: .32, .40 - COE is awarded to customer service people and this year
    as well. I know 2 gentlemen who have gotten COE over the past 3 years
    and I am happy to have gone & be going with them. Regardless of anyone 
    else's comment - we deserved it. I would be more than happy to see product
    engineers, etc. going to a COE as well but that is something that your
    organizations apparently must address on a group basis. BTW, I am not
    going as a manager but as a team member, co-worker. Finally, I know
    several folks who have gone to COE (DECathalon is the SAME thing) who
    are glad for th trip since it gives them a form of compensation they
    probably would not spend the money on nor could they get as good a deal
    if they had to buy on an individual basis. 

    I read up until .36 
    
    If COE is a reward, then it should be downsized to reflect the rewards
    that the rest of the company receives.  We've already said that the the
    sales force's salary is higher due to no commission.  That tells me the
    those with the higher salaries always reap the best rewards (and we're
    supposed to be a classless society- HA!).  Let sales come on down to
    the ranks and see the kind of wrok and abuse the rest of us have to go
    thru to get a product debugged and shipable (let alone buildable!) !
    
    We finish a product and we get a lunch/dinner at a local restauraunt
    and maybe some trinket of esteem (i.e. poster, cap, key chain, etc).
    The higher paid person sells it and (not only only get a higher salary) 
    get sent to Hawaii or a three day cruise.  
    
    Life hasn't been fair from day 1.  And another thing: when a company
    employs and works on a global market, then ALL it's employees should
    receive the same awards/benefits. (yes, I said benefits, new topic
    anyone?)
    
    Reg.

    
    
    re- .43
    
    Could you please let me know what group and region you are with?  
    
    We have been told, in no uncertain terms, that Customer Services
    individual contributors and level one managers are not eligible for
    COE.  I have been also told that some one who is eligible and wins, can
    nominate a person/persons to go.
    
    Jon

Throughout Digital's history, this note has been recast every year
once a year.  We now seem to have excellerated this topic.  It
is now being discussed once a quarter, every quarter.

Refer to note 2002 for the EXACT same arguments (often put forth
by the EXACT same people).

To the moderator...please write lock this and any new notes on this
subject...there really are no new ideas.

I would also suggest that...

1)  The people on the con side of awards continuously recast their
emotional arguments that center around fairness (whatever that it).
Every reply by them is a restatement of their closely held religious
beliefs.

2)  People on the pro side usually put forth well reasoned arguments
based on FACTS that get ignored by the con side during their 
emotional tirades.

I would be interested in the con side doing two things...

1)  Sum up your emotional/religious arguments and enter them in
one note ONE TIME so that myself and others can review them.  Put
in ALL of your points.  If your argument was well thought out, this
would be easy.  For an emotional argument, this is often quite
difficult.

2)  In as many notes as you wish (since this would be truly new
information) present any facts that you might have that would 
indicate that performance programs are bad for Digital's bottom
line.  No emotion, just facts.  You have seen the facts from the
pro side. You have refused to refute them on a factual basis.  The
only conclusion that can be drawn is that you have no facts and
therefore, no valid argument.

In case there was any doubt...I am on the pro side.  


Ken Slattery

    .46
    
    KEN:
    
    PERSONALLY ATTACKING THOSE WITH A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN YOURS WILL
    GET YOU ONLY ONE THING...PEOPLE IGNORING YOU AND ANY VALID POINT YOU MAY
    HAVE HAD!

    There is only one fact:  Digital is unprofitable and all events should
    be cancelled until the Company returns to profitability.  Enough said.
    I agree that the moderator should write lock this file.  A vast
    majority of employees agree that COE and all events are a drain on the
    Company at this time.

    
    
    resp .20
    
    give me a break...
    
    there are many many employees here bust their hump, above and beyond
    the call of duty, but because we're not part of the sales organization
    we dont receive any COE, etc. etc.
    
    and your suggestion of a $10,000 bonus instead of COE, doesent make
    me feel any better, its the same boondoggle.
    
    over the past few years our awards have been trimmed and trimmed
    again to the point where basically its just a name on a paper awrard.
    
    2 years between salary raises for number 2 performers, and believe
    me they dont just hand out #2's you really earn them.
    
    on very rare occations do they give out #1 since the the metrics are
    nearly impossible.
    
    the basic point is every organization in the company has been
    downsizing there awards or doing away with them, But not sales.
    Now they are going to commisions, the potential to earn $$$$$
    now that alpha products are ready to hit the streets, you
    guys should be able to clean up, if the economy picks up you
    guys will be pulling in some REAL BIG BUCKS.
    
    we never said sales was an easy job, but there are alot of us with 
    equally difficult jobs with NO recognition programs to speak of.
    
    The main point most of us are making due to the financial times
    everybody is cutting everything, except sales.
    
    mike
    
     
    
    

    COE cannot be canceled even if DEC wants to.  DEC made a promise, a
    legally binding promise that DEC legally must keep.  If DEC cancels,
    DEC will be sued and will lose.

    Re: .48

    If I understand correctly, Sales set aside a portion of their
    salary pool for CoE and you wish to take that away - to be fair,
    are you willing to give up an equivalent portion of your salary
    pool?  If so, I respect your opinion; otherwise how do you justify
    taking what is someone else's?

	Mike

   COE could be cancelled for this year if the company just increased the
   amount of bonus that the Sales people are awarded by the value of the
   trip.  This would still save the company lots of money.  How many Sales 
   people would be unhappy about getting a few more thousand bucks added to
   their already pretty decent bonus checks?!!  Most of the Sales people that  
   I have worked with are more incented by the bonus money (SP2) than by the 
   trips anyway.  Either way, it is taxable income to the employee and, as 
   cash, entirely up to them how they wish to spend it.  Digital writes 
   off the expense of COE and DEC100 as "business meetings" which is why 
   there are meetings held during these events that the employees must 
   attend.  This way many of the upper level managers  at Digital attend 
   these functions for lengthy periods of time while all the various 
   groups of winners come through.  (Not bad, spending three weeks in 
   Hawaii and just having to speak at a few meetings or dinners).  Of course,
   if the company went to a pure commission basis, then they'd have to find
   a new way to reward all these managers that are used to these perks.
   I believe that commission is the only way to go.  This allows the sales
   force to be rewarded directly in proportion to how well they do, helps
   stop some of the abuses of the awards system, and would probably save the
   company a fair amount of money.

   As an aside, what about the fact that the island where DECathalon was 
   going to be held was pretty badly hit by a hurricane?

    Yet another note full of whiners.
    
    As has been pointed out $1,000,000 times the COE money was budgeted as
    part of the salary plan for sales.
    
    Strikes me the only legitimate complaint people have about COE is that
    they think the process used to choose winners is biased towards the
    well connected and the brown nosers. I don't know if this is true but
    if it is that is the problem that should be fixed. You don't fix that
    by cancelling COE. My concrete suggestion is that to address the
    "brown nose" problem someone should be available where appeals can be
    made to where they see toadies being given the trip.
    
    Now let's all go back to work,
    
    Dave

    re:.50
    
    
    It certainly CAN be canelled.  I believe you are referring to the
    contracts in place with the hotels/catering services.  There would
    be SOME obligation on DEC's part (these contracts all carry a
    canellation clause...) but we would still save a tremendous amount of
    money in airfare, expenses, lost time, etc...
    
    
    re:.51
    
    In terms of sales "setting aside" part of their salary pool for COE,
    I'm not sure this is really true, meaning I don't think that the raises
    that sales folks end up with are "less" because of managements
    allocation of monies to the COE.  My guess is that as PART of their
    salary budget plan (read: seperate line item...) they request funds for
    COE and other things.
    
    I agree with most of the previous noters...I know some people who have
    gone and deserved it, and I have heard a tremendous amount of
    complaints from field folks geared toward people who went and did not
    deserve it.  
    
    Either way, I think it should be cancelled, given the current climate
    and the other award/recognition programs that have been cut.
    
    
    Jim

    COE expenses "set aside" from the salary plans?  Not likely.
    
    COE budgeted as an expense for the various cost centers?  Probably.
    
    Could it be cancelled.  Sure, just like Canobie Lake or the service
    award dinners.  It just means paying a cancellation fee like we did in
    these other examples.
    
    Be sued because we cancelled COE?  Ridiculous.
    
    Chet

    re:.54
    
>    It certainly CAN be canelled.  I believe you are referring to the
>    contracts in place with the hotels/catering services.  There would
>    be SOME obligation on DEC's part (these contracts all carry a
>    canellation clause...) but we would still save a tremendous amount of
>    money in airfare, expenses, lost time, etc...

    It can't be cancelled. This is not an option for Digital.
    
    I am referring to the contract made between Digital and Digital's sales
    reps.  The offer part of the contract stated that in return for a sales
    rep meeting some criteria stipulated by Digital that Digital would
    provide the sales rep with some specified item of value.  Digital made
    a valid offer.  A sales rep accepts the offer by meeting the offer's
    requirements.  This is a contract, a legally binding contract on
    Digital that Digital must fulfill. If Digital tries to weasel out of
    this contract any sales rep who was effected would have a good chance
    of bringing suit against Digital for breech of contract and winning.

    What is the difference between COE and decathelon? Are they one and the
    same?

RE: .46

    
>    PERSONALLY ATTACKING THOSE WITH A DIFFERENT VIEW THAN YOURS WILL
>    GET YOU ONLY ONE THING...PEOPLE IGNORING YOU AND ANY VALID POINT YOU MAY
>    HAVE HAD!

I have re-read my note...

I can find only two things that I feel could possibly be construed as 
personally attacking...  I don't think they are so maybe some clairification
would be helpful

Calling arguments religious arguments.  To me someone "feels" religion.
There is no proof of what one believes.  So, an argument that emanates
from "the gut" is a religious argument.  If you can't back it up with fact
it is religious.  If this use of the term is personnally attacking, I can
attempt to use a different one in the future.  I also use this phrase because
everyone has been in religous arguments (who is right Jesus Christ or 
Mohamed) and thus probably understands the futility of trying to reason
through it.  In this case, some people feel "in their guts" that COE
is wrong.  I have yet to see numbers to suggest that COE costs the
corporation money (i.e. our bottom line is less because of it) so their
negative feelings are not based in fact.  Thus, I would call them religous.

Before someone itemizes the cost and tells me this costs the corporation you
must also demonstrate that there is no incremental revenue and profit
because of this.  This has been the central point of the pro side.

I also said that people on the con side go into emotional tirades.  I think
they do.  I don't think this is personally attacking anyone.

Is there any other place that I may have attacked someone.

My tone, on the other hand, was deliberately sharp.  No apologies for this.
If someone feels strongly enough to tell me how I should be compensated when
(in many cases) they have NEVER seen a field office and if people want to
imply that I and my counterparts are somehow draining the corporation, they
should be prepared for sharp commentary.  Otherwise, they should spectate.

RE: .48    

>    There is only one fact:  Digital is unprofitable and all events should
>    be cancelled until the Company returns to profitability.  Enough said.


It is a fact that Digital is unprofitable.

What evidence do you have that cancelling COE would hasten our return to 
profitability especially in light of the arguments put forth in this note
and 2002?

Is this the sum total of your argument? 

Ken Slattery

    .58 just doesn't get it, yet....
    
    sigh...

    re: .48
    
    >There is only one fact:  Digital is unprofitable and all events should
    >be cancelled until the Company returns to profitability.  Enough said.
    
    You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.
    
    FACT:
    
    Digital is unprofitable
    
    OPINION:
    
    all events should be cancelled until the Company returns to profitability.
    
    Bob
    

    re .56:
    
    Just out of curiosity, can you point to a clause in an employment
    contact that specifically states the sales rep will be able to
    participate in COE?
    
    Or is it your assertion that COE, by its previous existence, is an
    implied part of the employment contract? And if so, does the same
    apply to Canobie?
    

    re: .56 <<< Note 2141.56 by SPECXN::PETERSON "Harlo Peterson" >>>
    
    Is this a verbal or written contract?
    
    Would you really sue?
    
    In these times, I would consider my job an item of value.
    
    Ken....
    

    Re: 61
    
>    Just out of curiosity, can you point to a clause in an employment
>    contact that specifically states the sales rep will be able to
>    participate in COE?

    The employment contract is not the only contract that applies to
    relationships between DEC and its employees.

>    Or is it your assertion that COE, by its previous existence, is an
>    implied part of the employment contract? And if so, does the same
>    apply to Canobie?

    Previous existence of COE could form an implied contract but that is
    not the basis of my assertion.  Written and verbal statements by
    Digital promising something in return for something else forms the
    offer part of a contract. A person acting on this promise forms the
    acceptance part of the contract.  The same does not apply to Canobie as
    there was no promise by DEC to offer Canobie in return for the
    employees doing something.  It was just a pure gift by DEC with no strings
    attached.
    
    Re: 62
    
>    Is this a verbal or written contract?

    It is a contract based on the requirements of a contract, an offer, an
    acceptance and a consideration (value).

>    Would you really sue?

    Me. Probably not. Would depend on how pissed I was for DEC breaking a
    promise. Since I don't work in sales the situation can't apply to me.

>    In these times, I would consider my job an item of value.
    
    I consider my salary and benefits the items of value.

    Circle of Excellence is a fine reward even though it is not as purely
    administrated as some would like.  Sales people should be rewarded for
    the risks they take.  Non-Sales Digital employees are generally compensated
    quite nicely and have nothing really to complain about.
    
    I hope any of you sales folks reading make it to COE and have a great
    time celebrating your success.  We need more like you!!!!
    
    
    Not_a_sales_person_or_spoil_sport_or_socialist_or_left_wing_Democrat,
    
    jeff

    
    
    re: -.1
    
    Exactly what are the risks that Sales people take that Non-sales people
    aren't exposed to?
    
    AND...
    
    On what do you base your comparison for compensation?
    
    

    re .61 et al:

    I'm not an attorney, nor do I have even a limited knowledge of the law
    regarding contracts, however, I have signed a PPP (Personal Performance
    Plan) which has also been signed by the Account Group Manager, and in
    some cases, the Account Vice President, stating the fact that I am
    eligible for Team 100, DEC 100, COE, and SP2.  Attached to this PPP is
    a Recognitions Program that explains eligibility, policies, and
    administration procedures.  It seems somewhat of a contract to me...but
    then again, I could be wrong.
    
    

    re: -1
    
    That there is a dollar figure (revenue) representing sale of products and
    services to the customer  that the sales person's performance
    is measured against.  The risk is influencing the customer to buy or
    lose your job.
    
    My basis for stating that Digital's pay is quite good is based on market
    research that says so (as well as observation of the lifestyles of
    Digital employees).
    
    jeff

    
    Two points....
    
    1.  Yes, Digital can unilaterally cancel a benefit, even after many 
    years of established practice.  See the topic about the new NO-car 
    plan for details.
    
    2.  Either you believe that awards like COE motivate sales people or
    you don't.  If you do, then you must evaluate whether the money spent
    is worth the return.  Most COE sales winners (outside of 5 year
    winners) have sold greater than 200% of their budget.  This means that
    they have done the sales work of greater than two people.  For this
    effort, they don't get 2X salary, they get a 4 day trip for two and
    some form of bonus money.
    	If you don't beleive the incentive drives this kind of behavior,
    you are saying that the same rep will accomplish the same level of
    performance for no other reason than "just because".
    	
    	If you cancel all incentive plans, you are betting that all 
    successful sales people will continue in their current behavior in the
    face of a loss of rewards and benfits.  In the meantime, the outcome of
    your plan will also be affected by what your competitors do.  If they
    decide to raid your sales force, you have just made it extremely easy
    for them.  Even if they don't, they can adversely affect morale in your
    organization by publicizing their similar events.  Since every DEC
    sales rep knows several former Deccies who are now working for Sun,
    Sequent, Oracle, Silicon Graphics, or Microsoft (for example), this
    will happen anyway, regardless of malicious intent.
    
    There is another way of looking at this situation, too.  What is the
    percent of revenue cost of (sales) COE?  A typical rep carries a budget
    of $1.5 Million.  He has to achieve 200% of this to go to COE.  Thus,
    his sales will be $3 Million.  COE will likely cost $6000 for a couple,
    so that yields an incremental cost of 0.004% for the second 100% of
    budget (the second $1.5 million)  A fair return?  You be the judge. 
    

    re: 68
    
>    1.  Yes, Digital can unilaterally cancel a benefit, even after many 
>    years of established practice.  See the topic about the new NO-car 
>    plan for details.
    
    I agree as long as appropriate notice is given.  DEC cannot cancel an
    earned benefit.

>  There is another way of looking at this situation, too.  What is the
>    percent of revenue cost of (sales) COE?  A typical rep carries a budget
>    of $1.5 Million.  He has to achieve 200% of this to go to COE.  Thus,
>    his sales will be $3 Million.  COE will likely cost $6000 for a couple,
>    so that yields an incremental cost of 0.004% for the second 100% of
>    budget (the second $1.5 million)  A fair return?  You be the judge. 
    
It doesn't look to me like comparing the ROI on a gross basis is fair. Shouldn't
the return be based on the profit to the company? Digital has had less than
a 10% margin for the last several years. At most the cost should be compared to
$300k, not $3 mil.

This was not meant to be a "vote" either way, just clarification of sorts...

joe

Gee, this not has filled up fast since the weekend!

With regard to who gets the reward, I know of two local cases worth quoting.

1. Someone I used to work with came in at 250% of budget, which was the only 
reason his department made budget, and his manager (only) got the COE award 
trip.

2. Someone I work with now, worked many weekends and nights on a project and 
the "owner" of the project got the COE trip.

For my 1c (can't afford 2 cents any more) worth, I think a lot of this goes on!

regs
disillusioned_COE_observer!
(sorry, not nasser-checked)

>>                      <<< Note 2141.57 by AIMHI::BARRY >>>
                            -< coe and decathalon >-

>>    What is the difference between COE and decathelon? Are they one and the
>>    same?

DECathlon was the old name for the sales event.  COE encompasses sales and
non-sales (or is supposed to, anyway).

>>           <<< Note 2141.61 by WLDBIL::KILGORE "Bill -- 227-4319" >>>

>>    re .56:
    
>>    Just out of curiosity, can you point to a clause in an employment
>>    contact that specifically states the sales rep will be able to
>>    participate in COE?
  
As a matter of fact, salespeople are given a document which specifies their
compensation plan.  Winning 5 DEC100's, for example, entitles the rep to COE.
Sounds like a contract to me.

    .58 clearly DOES understand it very well, too bad & ironic that
    emotional opinions rather than specific economic facts are clouding
    what is really a very simple issue. 

    re: .45 - I am not is customer services but I work in the office with
    several of them on a daily basis. One of them is going to Hawaii from my
    office this year. He deserves it. I am in the central region and am in
    sales. Being in sales I have great appreciation for the other groups
    whom I work with in a collective effort as a team player. Together we
    are able to win sales, solve problems, etc. We field folks all need
    each other to succeed. 

    sales sells a product that's not even on the market yet and the rest of
    us have to make sure we (DEC) have a 100% product entered to market on
    time to be profitable.  If we couldn't make the product sold and get it
    shipped on time, would sales still get the added bonuses?  Does COE
    represent on anticipated sales or actuals sales (once customer has
    received, accepted and paid for the product)?
    
    It's all still beside the point, sales couldn't get their rewards and
    bonuses if it wasn't for the rest of us insuring DEC had a product to
    sell.  If a salesperson has to be that aggressive to sell a DEC
    product, (IMO) it just goes to show how much the business community
    knows about DEC.  Advertising and hands on demos are the way to sell a
    product; just think about it: when you go to buy a new household
    appliance, power tool, electronics gadget, where do you find out about
    it?  Not from a salesperson, but from advertising and word of mouth and
    sometimes a consumers report.  Then you would go see the salesperson to
    purchase the product and in some cases receive a demo.  Those
    salespeople wouldn't have anything to sell if it wasn't for the people
    in the wings building it and insuring it works and works good.
    
    I enjoy the lunches/dinners and trinkets that I get, but I more prefer
    a bonus and/or day/2 off.  Obviously DEC appears to opt for the easy
    way out a meal/trip can be bought in bulk and discounted and at the
    same time be productive with meetings/work while a bonus and/or day off
    means real money lost and real time lost in getting the new product to
    market on time.
    
    It's an age of information and we shouldn't have to really heavily on
    sales to make the sale, just to insure that the product does what
    advertising says it does and that it is better then the competition's.
    
    I think it's wonderful that the sales people receive such generous
    rewards, I just don't understand why? and nothing you say will change
    the way I think about this.
    
    Reg.

    Again, I would state that someone coming in at 250% of budget, if they
    helped set their budget figure, it A PROBLEM, and SHOULD NOT BE
    REWARDED.  The sales folks tha<t should be rewarded are those that set
    agressive budgets and meet them.  This 200%, 300%, 400% of budget shows
    they did not know there accounts, did not help manufacturing properly
    prepare product for the year, sand bagged to make themselves look
    better, etc.  This type of performance should NOT be rewarded.
    
    And although I am not currently eligable for COE, I agree that it
    should proceed with better adminstration of "who" should go.

RE: .76

I think all organizations should have good reward systems.  If yours doesn't
then get your organization changed...don't try to take away the good reward
system of another organization in order to gain parity.  That's jealousy in
action.

>    It's all still beside the point, sales couldn't get their rewards and
>    bonuses if it wasn't for the rest of us insuring DEC had a product to
>    sell.  If a salesperson has to be that aggressive to sell a DEC
>    product, (IMO) it just goes to show how much the business community
>    knows about DEC.  Advertising and hands on demos are the way to sell a
>    product; just think about it: when you go to buy a new household
>    appliance, power tool, electronics gadget, where do you find out about
>    it?  Not from a salesperson, but from advertising and word of mouth and
>    sometimes a consumers report.  Then you would go see the salesperson to
>    purchase the product and in some cases receive a demo.

>    It's an age of information and we shouldn't have to really heavily on
>    sales to make the sale, just to insure that the product does what
>    advertising says it does and that it is better then the competition's.

Yes the rest of the corporation needs to create products.  High achievers should
be rewarded for doing that.

The rest of this passage indicates a VERY limited knowledge of how sales of
multi million dollar things occur.  It is pretty easy to pick out a new
VCR.  It is a far different matter to:

1)  Understand customer needs
2)  Choose a solution that consists of
	- 35 separate computers in 35 locations
	- Appropriate network gear and design
	- 10 different software products
3)  Convince a customer that this will save them money or increase thier
	profits instead of COST them money
4)  Get a PO
5)  Coordinate the delivery, installation and ongoing maintenance
6)  Continue to uncover new oppurtunities

I do this on a dialy basis.  So do MOST other people in Sales/Sales Support

If this were as easy as buying a VCR from Sears, you are right, you don't need
me.  If you want, and are serious about the conversation, I will put you in
touch with several customers and you can ask them if they would like to buy
their $15,000,000 worth of installed DEC recommended gear at Sears.

I think that there may well be a set of "mental models" (coined by Peter
Senge in his book The Fifth Discipline) about how products/services move
through Digital that make people inside trivialize the task of us outside and
vice-versa.  Maybe this is what leads to these religous feuds.


>    I think it's wonderful that the sales people receive such generous
>    rewards, I just don't understand why? and nothing you say will change
>    the way I think about this.

Why can't I change your mind?

Is it because you hold your beliefs to be self evident and therefore will not
accept facts to the contrary?  People used to believe that the earth was flat
with similar zeal.

Do you have a compelling argument that you have yet to share with the rest of
us that would compel me to believe what you believe?

At least we have come back to the point that this is a discussion from the "gut"
not the head.  Because of this we have two polarized views that will probably
never agree.

As I suggested before, we should refrain from this discussion until new 
information is available.  I for one, will abide by that (even though I feel
compelled to keep getting back into this thing for some reason).

Ken Slattery

    re: .-1
    
    Oh, so someone who capitalizes on an unexpected opportunity should be
    penalized for doing so? That sends an interesting message; I can hear
    the thought process now; "Wow, I've found this possible zillion dollar 
    sale; but wait a minute, if I close it, it'll look bad on my record.
    I'd be better off ignoring it so I have a chance at being rewarded."
    
    A lot of being a COE winner (for better or worse) has to do with having
    a degree of luck; being in the right place at the right time. Personally
    I don't like this aspect, but the corporation is rewarding performance,
    (ie big bucks+exceeding goals) rather than foresight or effort, which
    are much harder to quantify/measure and justify to upper levels.
    
    Dave

re: .58

>What evidence do you have that cancelling COE would hasten our return to 
>profitability especially in light of the arguments put forth in this note
>and 2002?

Well Ken, I would say, the same evidence that was used to justify the 
cancellation of:

    . Canobie Lake & other outings
    . Award Dinners
    . Post-its
    . Water coolers
    . Higher costs for benefits
    . more restrictions on car plans
    . layoffs
    . etc

- George

    ...not to mention that cancelling COE would lessen morale of sales?
    what about the morale of the rest of us who have lost lots already?
    
    I could cop a real attitude, but I really enjoy working here and the
    job I do, so I will continue to work even if they stuck toothpicks
    under my fingernails. (or unless they deemed my job non essential and
    laid me off)
    
    Reg.

    I'm confused.
    
    1. If I work to 300% or 1000% of what I was "hired to do" that is
       generally expected by the person's who hired me. This is common
       in my group as well as all the other groups I've worked in other
       companies in my 20 years in the industry. In return I expect an
       annual salary based on my performance, the companies profits and
       consideration for inflation. Work hard, the company grows, everyone
       has food on the table. I thought that was what KO built this
       company on. Dedication and honor. Profits go back into the company
       to create more jobs. Food on the table for more people. How does
       this COE, dec100 or whatever rewards originate to be part of some
       compensation contract? Is it that sales does not get salary,benefits
       package like the rest of us? Why does sales need more from DEC than
       a job to put food on the table and a roof over the head? Does DEC
       owe the mighty sales force more? Do the engineers that built this
       company and made available sales jobs owe sales more than anyone
       else needs?
    
       2. We are losing money now. Is that correct?
       3. We are slowly going into more and more DEBT. Is that correct?
      
       In my own personal finances when I start to go into debt, beyond 
       where I feel comfortable....any money I can find/make somewhere else
       goes to pay this debt and get ahead a little. Why isn't the money
       that is spent on these reward progams being used to pay off our
       bills. Or fund new product R&D. Seems like a much safer bet for ROI
       than gambleing on whether a salesman is going to more motivated to
       sell if there is COE at the end of the tunnel.
       Isn't a paycheck and being able to work for DEC enough to motivate
       salesman to sell 250% or 1000% above what they are asked to do?
       Sales is killing this company.
    
       
      
       

    I suppose if you assume the sales folks are driven only by the rewards
    to be gained they might be holding back potential sales until the
    commission structure is in place?
    
    Please don't tell me this is happening.

    -1 This is a very good possibility.
    

    re: .82
    
    UNBELIEVABLE!
    
    I think you will find that "Lack of Sales" is what is killing this
    company.
    
    The sale quotas given to sales people are determined at the Area level,
    not by the sales people, or even their direct managers. 
    They define the level of effort for the year.  If a sales person
    produces more than his employment contract (Goal sheet, which defines
    the quota, the reward, and the incentives), he is contributing more
    than his share BY DEFINITION, just as you are doing more than your
    share when you work a long week.  It happens all the time, on both
    sides of the fence.
    
    In the meantime, the sales quotas have been going up every year while
    the average sale has been going down precipitously.  Computer 
    price/performance has gone through the floor in the last several years. 
    In 1985, a sales person could make his quota by selling a single 8600. 
    Today that same person would have to sell about 2 dozen 4000/200's. 
    These are roughly the same size machines.  Now, if I understand you
    correctly, that person should be willing to sell 5 dozen of those
    machines (250%) just for the privilege of working here.  My question 
    is, where am I going to find more than one new customer a week for 52 weeks?
    Just because sales is measured by dollars instead of hours does not
    mean we are unconstrained by time.  What you are demanding of us is the
    same as asking you to work 100 hours a week (250% of your obligation)
    EXCEPT that you could actually do productive work in the evenings and
    weekends, while we could not FIND a customer in off hours.
    
                                     
                                      

re .47: Ken Slattery

If you don't like discussion, no one is making you read every note.

I would ask that you kindly stop casting aspersions on noters who are stating
their point of view. It doesn't make you look very nice.

re: promises:

When I worked in Sales Support, I never heard them promise
that there would be one next year. I never signed anything which
said Digital would provide a COE trip if I did certain things.
I'd actually like to know these details ahead of time so I could
adjust my performance accordingly. But we knew it was 
largely a roll of the dice.

Are the various laid-off Prime/Wang/Osborne employees going to sue 
their employers because the commitment to reward programs was
violated?


An example of how bad decisions abound with COE:
They won't award a husband and wife simultaneously,
who both work for Digital, and who both would otherwise
get an award that year, because they would obviously
choose to bring other non-SO's as each of their guests, rather
than each other. At least that's what appears to be the norm 
when the decision makers know about both award-condidates 
being married.

My main issue is not that sales shouldn't be rewarded, its that
Sales Support people who don't have the same ability to close
deals and so on are attached into the same reward system, which
is really oriented around sales. As a sales support person, I find it
non-motivational to be selected for COE. To put it another way,
taking the whole thing away would not change how hard I work
one iota. But if you institute a program which gives the awardee
some choice in the matter, such as picking from a list of options,
and those options might be 1) cash, 2) equipment, 3) consumer
electronics 4) better company car, 5) trip to whatever, then
I might consider working even harder than I do to make the award.

To not give someone a choice is to treat them like chattel.

	erik

For those who answered my reply .71 (including those with crystal balls, who
seem to be able to guess the exact circumstances), there seems to be a little 
confusion over the person who came in at 250% of budget.

Firstly, I don't know how it works everywhere else, but in our Region an awful 
lot of people who won COE were not sales or even related to sales, pre or post 
sales support!  Many other non-sales jobs qualify for COE.

So don't assume every reply in this particular note, about COE, has some 
comment for or against salesmen.  I'm sure there's "we love sales persons" and
"we hate sales persons" notes somewhere in this conference.!

But enough about assumptions.  In this case, the 250% man was not a sales 
person, but a post-sales consultant, who improved his skills making him more in
demand, and also enabled him to work on new products that had fixed prices
rather than hourly rates.

So please don't flog the poor guy to death because you assume he's a salesman
who can't do budgets.

Sorry, have to go find my valium now!    :-)

Regs

    Talk about a rathole...
    
    I confess that I'm an EE (Johns Hopkins graduate). For whatever reason,
    I've ended up at DEC sales. I appreciate the "perk" of COE..been on
    some but not on the current. I also respect what the sales rep goes
    thru in making his/her budget. DEC does not pay reps the same as
    "industry". I have Sun reps in my account making over $200k with their
    commission package!
    
    As to the engineer vs. the sales rep, this is a debate like the chicken
    and the egg. Our engineers certainly are important but, if you can sell
    a snoball to an eskimo, your stockholders can appreciate this. A good
    rep will sell ANYTHING regardless of engineering excellence. If it
    takes COE to attract good reps, so be it. If it takes good compensation
    packages to attract good engineers, so be it.
    
    A successful company is the result of teamwork of all the elements.
    Let's not degrade our company because of jealousy. Hell, I've never
    been to a company picnic nor been eligible for a turkey. I never
    complained as loudly as I'm seeing though.

    Re. a few -
    
    I had also heard that individual contributors in Digital Services would
    not be eligible for COE this year.  In his last DVN, Don Zereski was
    asked about this and said he was not aware of any changes in the COE
    program.  In the end a number of ICs won COE in this region (Eastern
    States).  I personally know several of the winners and can vouch that
    they are not managers :-)
    
    At least part of COE is budgeted for in the cost center.  This part is
    viewed as a business expense and is figured into the business plan as
    are all other expenses including salaries, training, allowances
    (discounts)...                                 
    
    In the New Management System (NMS), profit and loss is held at the
    account level (sales).  All account managers were measured on several
    aspects of financial performance but meeting a targeted P&L figure
    seemed to be a major part of their measurement.  The point of this
    is that COE was figured in the business plan of a true P&L group.  It
    was viewed as a 'cost of business'.
    
    I have seen a number of the objectionable examples mentioned here.  As
    a (now) manager I can say that much of that is up to management to
    correct.  Given that it is impossible for everyone to know exactly what
    everyone else contributed, and COE only reaches the 'top' 10%, it is
    easy to have one person in a group not recognize why a particular
    winner was selected.  It is also up to management to try and make the
    selection process clear.
    
    In our group, sales selection was done strictly on performance against
    budget.  As has been mentioned the last person selected was over 200%
    of budget.  And no these people did not get to pick their budgets.
    
    Sales managment selection was based on performance against budget and
    the manager's percentage of employees making budget.  The winner was
    over 150% of budget and had 100% of his unit make budget.
    
    Sales support was selected based on performance against budget and a 
    subjective evaluation of contribution and level.  Given that sales
    support budgets were not all directly comparable with each other this 
    seemed the only appropriate mechanism.
    
    Not being a sales person I find it very interesting to note the extent
    to which most sales people are motivated by 'carrots'.  Over the last
    five years our local group (software services at the time) created a
    number of incentive plan to get sales to sell more
    services/projects/assets.  We saw activity in each area increase
    directly as a result of the programs.  We also saw the business drop as
    programs ended.
    
    The computer companies I know of that have 'comission plans' (Zereski 
    said that ours was NOT a comission plan) still have award events.  I am 
    sure that COE is a motivator to some.  Perhaps there is a better 
    motivator ($).  Perhaps all the motivators should be used in a combination
    measured to get the best performance. 

>>                     <<< Note 2141.76 by STOKES::BURT >>>

>>    sales sells a product that's not even on the market yet

Sales can't sell what sales can't quote.  If it ain't in AQS it doesn't exist.


>> Does COE represent on anticipated sales or actuals sales (once customer has
>> received, accepted and paid for the product)?
  
Based on orders certed, but not necessarily shipped.
  
>>    It's all still beside the point, sales couldn't get their rewards and
>>    bonuses if it wasn't for the rest of us insuring DEC had a product to 
>>    sell.

True.  And if the wonderful products you engineers design can't sell, we'd
all be out of business.  Or are you suggesting the products and services
sell themselves?

>>  If a salesperson has to be that aggressive to sell a DEC
>>  product, (IMO) it just goes to show how much the business community
>>  knows about DEC.  

Naive.  Are you suggesting that it's ignorance about our wonderful and glorious
products that stands between us and profitability?  Did you ever speak to a 
customer?  Ever hear about our competition?

>>  Advertising and hands on demos are the way to sell a product; just think 
>>  about it: when you go to buy a new household
>>  appliance, power tool, electronics gadget, where do you find out about
>>  it?  Not from a salesperson, but from advertising and word of mouth and
>>  sometimes a consumers report.  Then you would go see the salesperson to
>>  purchase the product and in some cases receive a demo.  Those
>>  salespeople wouldn't have anything to sell if it wasn't for the people
>>    in the wings building it and insuring it works and works good.
    
Get real!  This isn't Sears.  What kinds of products and services do you think 
we producs?

re: .83 .... you need to understand the sales process better.  Now that
budgets are set, the {salesman | unit | group } has MONTHLY and QUARTERLY
numbers.  From what I can tell, there's no clear timeline on the commission
stuff.  Hell, the new car plans don't go into effect to Jan 1 and these are
pretty simple to figure out.  Given the fact that Digital has littel experience
in commission sales plans, the feeling in the field is that it'll be a while
before any change in the sales compensation plan goes into effect.

As with other groups within the company, there is an unbelieveable level of
pressure on sales (and sales support) to MAKE THESE MONTHLY NUMBERS. Noone
is looking at the spring ...  If you bring in ANY size order that isn't on the
forecast, you're in big, deep crap.  All the sales people I know are scratching
and clawing for every piece of business just as damn fast as they can.  There's
been a clear message sent to the field and it goes something like this:  you got
one quarter to make your number, otherwise you get to consider your career
options ... somewhere else.

Re .84 .... IF you can PROVE this, take it Bob Palmer immediately and get
these people fired  ... but for heaven's sake, give the salesman a little
credit.  They're not nearly as sinister and plotting as everyone is saying.
The Company doesn't need this level of distrust and it is totally
unwarranted take this position.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
           <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2141.83                  COE-still being held?                     83 of 90
AKOFAT::SHERK "Ignorance is a basic human rite."      5 lines   6-OCT-1992 12:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I suppose if you assume the sales folks are driven only by the rewards
    to be gained they might be holding back potential sales until the
    commission structure is in place?
    
    Please don't tell me this is happening.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
           <<< HUMANE::DISK$DIGITAL:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2141.84                  COE-still being held?                     84 of 90
EMDS::MANGAN                                          2 lines   6-OCT-1992 13:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -1 This is a very good possibility.
    

    Re. some previous note,
    
    > Sales is killing this company. <
    
    I seem to hear and see more and more of this view in our company lately
    - even heard it in a subtle way on a DVN a month or so ago.  It seems
    to me to be another example of a somewhat inwardly-focused view that
    exists at present in Digital, rather than outwardly-focused towards
    customer and market needs, the solution to those needs, and
    competition.
    
    If sales really is killing the company, and is the primary contributor
    to our lack of profitability and growth, then we should end *all*
    direct sales to customers, and operate solely through distribution
    partners and direct-to-customer activities (i.e. 800 numbers).  Perhaps
    this would solve "the sales problem" once and for all...
    
    Regards,
    David Wallace
    Carolinas Desktop Team
    

	re .79:

>    Oh, so someone who capitalizes on an unexpected opportunity should be
>    penalized for doing so? That sends an interesting message; I can hear
>    the thought process now; "Wow, I've found this possible zillion dollar 
>    sale; but wait a minute, if I close it, it'll look bad on my record.
>    I'd be better off ignoring it so I have a chance at being rewarded."
>    
>    A lot of being a COE winner (for better or worse) has to do with having
>    a degree of luck; being in the right place at the right time. Personally
>    I don't like this aspect, but the corporation is rewarding performance,
>    (ie big bucks+exceeding goals) rather than foresight or effort, which
>    are much harder to quantify/measure and justify to upper levels.

	All this is true, and I guess it was a bit naive to suggest
	that salespeople should be measured on *hitting* budget rather
	than exceeding it.

	But that is a reasonable quality approach to work in any other
	area than Sales. Why is Sales so different?

	Another thing: if it's unfair and unreasonable (which it is)
	to measure a salesperson on not exceeding budget, why is it
	fair and reasonable to measure them on not being under budget?
	I have seen lots of cases where this happened through no fault
	whatever of the salespeople, but because of unforeseen changes
	in the customer's business.

	Maybe the conclusion is that, ideally, budgets/quotas are a
	crude approach to getting sales results. The practical question
	is, could we do better given the salespeople, customers, products
	and mission we have today?

	/Tom

    Good! I hit on the right nerves! All it takes is a little persuassion
    and the rest of DEC (non-sales-types) will find out what sales is all
    about.  8�)
    
    However, the product should be worthy and long standing enough to sell
    itself.  If one suggest that sales-types are so good as to sell snowballs 
    to Eskimos, then I wouldn't want that person working for me.  It's one
    thing to make budget, it's another to be a thief.
    
    BTW: I'm not in sales or design, but Materials Science Engineering R&D
    where we have to tell the designers what will work in their product and
    then visit the other end of the spectrum to find out why in the process
    the product failed.  More often than not, I've seen failures because a
    product was pushed onto the customers too fast causing many manf
    problems.  (this _could_ come in line with sales selling what doesn't
    exist yet)
    
    Reg.

                      <<< Note 2141.94 by STOKES::BURT >>>

>>    However, the product should be worthy and long standing enough to sell
>>    itself.  If one suggest that sales-types are so good as to sell snowballs 
>>    to Eskimos, then I wouldn't want that person working for me.  It's one
>>    thing to make budget, it's another to be a thief.
  
VAXen are probably the most "worthy and long standing" products ever, yet 
they're losing market share to RISC products and PCs.  Why?  Because that's 
what the market wants.  The days of "sales selling snow to Eskimos" are long
gone.  You really have no clue as to what Digital wants its sales reps to be.
We're supposed to be consultants to our customers, understanding their business
as well as they do, and positioning Digital's THOUSANDS of products and 
services as vital to their success.  And, yes, if Digital doesn't have the
right answer, we're supposed to help the customer find one.

Why don't you spend some time in the field before you cast aspersions
on the character of sales reps.

I have given this subject some more thought and have come to the conclusion
that COE should stay around. I am not now, nor have I ever been nor do I 
want to be in direct sales. 

I believe that all this 'bitching' is caused by the frustration of seeing
the cost of our benefits increase and friends being laid off. At the same time 
we get the feeling of being 'nickel & dimed' to death with the cancellation of 
those little thank you type things that say 'we are important too'. 
Jealousy? Yeah, I'm jealous, I'd love nothing better than to spend a week or 
two in Hawaii with my wife (on DEC). On the otherhand, I don't really want the 
job that I'd be required to do. I've seen sales and sales support people in 
action, I don't need the (extra) stress.

So, upon giving this 'COE vs. no COE' argument more thought, I say let them have
it. Damn, I'd like to see every sales and sales support person awarded the trip
IF, it meant that they all pulled in that much money. That would meann that most
likely I would be able to continue doing the job that I like doing the most.

So, go get'em

- George

re .96

Can I sign my name to that, too?

Mickey.

Every organization has the same opportunity as Sales to recognize their
excellent performers however they wish.  Perhaps there would be fewer
complaints about COE if other organizations were doing more to recognize
their top performers.

Each organization has or certainly should have goals and those goals
should be translated down to how each individual in the organization
contributes and each individual should be rewarded for contributions
above the goals set for them.

    	Having been in FS for over 5 years, I've seen my fair share of
    real customers. I've also seen where FS reps are in a good position
    to help sales become more efficient, with the right incentives. 

    	One of the stipulations in service contracts is that FS will come
    in at some sort of interval and do a preventative maintenance call
    (PM). The newer equipment typically has much less need for PM's than
    when I was out in the field, but there is still a need.

    	The point in this is that the FS rep is the DEC person who typically 
    spends the most time with customers. In addition to PM's, I also used to 
    do site visits. This was usually just a "Hi, I was in the area and figured
    I'd stop by and see how things were going" type of call. I would usually 
    check the error log while I was there and at times, told customers that 
    they were developing problems before they ever knew they had one.

    	This approach did two things. It made customers feel like they were
    really getting their moneys worth for their maintenance contract (i.e.
    when's the last time that those of you with Sear's maintenance
    contracts had a repair person stop in and see how things were going).
    It makes an incredible impact on future purchase decisions. 

    	The other thing it did was give DEC people more exposure to 
    customers. How the heck can you find out what the customers
    needs/desires are if you don't spend some time with them. I'm not
    saying that FS reps (although some probably could) configure 
    customer solutions, but by being in close communication with my
    customers, I was privy (at times) to when a customers budget was to
    have money allocated for future new equipment. I was also, at times,
    privy to what the intended purpose was for the new equipment. This is 
    KEY INFORMATION.

    	Where I'm going with this is that this thought could develop into
    one that could not only save FS jobs, it could also help sales become more
    effective. This could allow sales to spend more time generating sales
    to new customers.

    	This is not to say that they shouldn't stay in touch with existing
    customers, it's just trying to take a more efficient approach at
    increasing the installed base AND increasing sales.
    	
    	The relation of this to the base note is that you can directly
    link any special incentives programs into other groups and induce that 
    sense of teamwork that is really needed. Although I too, feel a certain
    sense of lack of fairness, and yes, even jealousy, about COE, I don't
    think that complaining about it is really productive (it does make me
    feel better though ;-). If it really bothered me that much, I'd try to 
    transfer into sales.

    	One other thought. The Canobie Lake outing and the Christmas
    turkeys differ from COE in a major way (and not just monitarily).
    
    	COE is directly linked to performance. The Canobie Lake outing and
    the turkeys are given to everyone, across the board, regardless of
    whether you're rated a 1 or a 5.

    I think that what sounds so wrong about this is the idea
    that without incentives, the sales force wont work very
    hard.  In the rest of DEC, everyone is expected to work
    VERY hard, and we all recognize that some people are better
    at their job than others.  The better performers are rewarded
    by a larger raise, more respect, more 'interesting' projects,
    etc.

    The implication that I keep hearing in this string is that
    monetary incentives (COE, commisions, etc.) are what drive
    Sales and without them the sales staff just wont work very hard.
    bob

    I'm also not very good at this note extract and reply to it stuff.
    .95, I have no time for people like you; I don't want to work in sales
    or even spend any amount of time with it.
    
    I believe I stated that my little ploy was working in that I was
    getting sales to discribe themselves so that everyone had a better
    understanding of what was going on in sales.  Also, I did not make the
    statement about selling snowballs to Eskimos, I was only parroting what
    someone else mentioned in an earlier note and I wasn't even suggesting
    that I believe our sales people are selling snowballs to Eskimos. I
    hope you're not in sales, because it appears you wouldn't be able to
    understand what the customer wants.
    
    So sorry for preventing the moss from gathering on this rolling stone,
    I just have to clarify myself here so that hopefully everyone will
    understand.  All I ask is that sales explain themselves and justify why
    they deserve to go to Hawaii and I deserve to go the one of the local
    restaraunts (and if I want to bring my wife, I have to pay for her
    meal).  I also suggest that if such statement as sales sell snow to
    Eskimos is true, that this practice be stopped because once the
    whirlwind subsides, the cusotmer figures out what happened and cancels
    and never does business with the company again; something we don't
    need.
    
    Reg.

    re: .95, .101, .102
    
    I too agree with .102.  I want no part of sales.  Providing a solution
    to a customer is not totaly up to a sales rep.  Complex soultions
    require a team.  Seems like .95 thinks he/she knows or should know
    everything.  Sales people that I know, do not work as hard as they lead
    you to believe.  If an incentive is what they need..keeping their job
    should be enough.  Many employees work very hard and have not had a
    salary increase in 15, 18, 24 or more months.  The bottom line is
    profit not CERTS.  Unfortunatly just by CERTing your budget does not
    insure a profit for Digital.  I know these are the metrics but they are
    wrong.  COE is wrong too.  I guess we'll see who the performers are
    when the commission compensation starts.  Has it already started??
    
    Many of the replies to this note are written out of frustration but
    bottom line is that the system is flawed and it must be corrected.
    
    Anyone have any idea of how many "special" employees participate in
    all these rewards (COE, DEC100, etc) and what it costs?  I'm sure
    it costs millions of dollars.  Millions that cannot be afforded given
    today's fact that Digital is unprofitable.

What this company needs is to have everyone motivated to produce
the maximum possible output for whatever their function is, at
the minimum cost to the corporation.

We have a very diverse mix of employee temperaments here, and no 
across-the-board generalizations will accurately group them all.
That said, however, there are some generalizations which work more
often than not, and splitting sales off in their own group is one of them.

What motivates you might be a waste, or even a demotivator for someone else.
So, what management should be doing is implementing programs targetted at
their own groups which will go the farthest towards motivating them.
If you can't understand why a trip to Hawaii is a good motivator, then it is
obviously not an appropriate motivator for you, and it is appropriate that
you not participate in that program.  If having first shot at the hot new
hardware to use at your desk motivates you, then you should have it if you
perform well.  Most salesmen I know couldn't care less, so they should not 
have corporate money spent that way.

How well would the engineers in the crowd perform if they were never recognized
in peer forums, were still working on 780's and VTs?

Bottom line is you do what motivates your employees or you live with lackluster
performance.

None of the above should be construed as condoneing the total lack of
motivation programs for any group of employees.

Kevin

In response to the remark that sales should work as hard with or without
incentives/rewards, I'd like to shed some light.  Sales is an area where there
is an "infinite" amount of work (opportunities) only to be limited by the 
amount of time, effort and dedication that the rep wants to commit.  Thats why
sales people (traditional commission, not DEC) are generally told that "you
control how much you make".  I have been in the field for a few years and for 
the most part those who have made COE have worked EXTREMELY hard (12-14 hour
days) in order to exceed their ever growing budgets.  There are always those
cases when a "blue bird" opportunity of several million $$ comes unexpectedly
but that is just part of selling and something every sales rep prays for, but 
most never see.

If you compare DEC's salary/bonuses/incentives to those of our competitors 
which we go head to head against every day you will see that the DEC rep has 
a more stable salary but has MUCH less high end potential.  It is not uncommon
for a GOOD high tech rep to make 100-150K with commissions, but not at DEC.
That is why you see many good DEC sales/support people leaving to competitors
and partners and rarely ever see it go the other way.  

BTW in our area last year there was a significant cutback in the %'s of people
who were awarded COE (down about 25%) and many reps who worked very, very hard
and made 180% of budget did not get COE due to these cutbacks.  Thats a real
motivation buster!

gary

    re:99
    
    Right on!  See my note .40...that was the point I was trying to
    make-that Field Service engineers are out in front of the customer
    much more than Sales and often see situations where something can
    be sold into that account.  Also, engineers typically can speak
    on a much more technical level to the I.S. people than the Sales
    person can.  Sooooo, often times the engineer has sold the item
    or solution, and basically the sales person turns into an order 
    taker.  Another situation that occurs frequently is that Sales people
    won't even schedule a meeting without their trusty Field Service
    Account Rep or other Sales Support type individual right by their
    side.  Who ultimately gets credit for that sale???  Sales.  
    
    I agree that there are Sales Reps out there who are working very
    hard, BUT alot of other folks are working very hard too, and I would
    dare say that although they don't have budgets over their heads they
    DO have customer satisfaction numbers to meet et.al. AND the base
    salary is certainly less than their sales counterparts.
    
    I know of several engineers who are considering going into sales
    since they end up doing so much pre-sales anyway.
    
    As to the amount of money it costs the company for these functions,
    my husband and I went to the "VAX9000 Club" last year in Palm Springs.
    It was the first time we had been on a trip such as this in 10 years
    with DEC.  It unfortunately came on the heels of the Black Monday 
    layoff.  We both were astounded at the amount of money spent on the
    event.  At one point we actually talked to the front desk and casually
    asked what DEC's running total was per day ....... about a million
    dollars per day.  We saw many instances of just sheer waste of money.
    Just one example is that instead of staying in a normal room at the
    resort, the V.P.'s were staying in penthouse suites for all of COE 
    and VAX9000 (3 weeks total).  The "discounted rate" for those suites
    was $1300 a day.  The normal rooms were about $300/day.  Add up the
    difference in price for 3 weeks.  As a stockholder... it makes me want
    to puke.  
    
    

    re: .106
    
    Thanks for your reply and highlighting the amount of money that is
    WASTED.  How does any work get done when VP's are at an event for
    3 weeks WASTING money?  This is a clear cut reason/fact for cancelling all
    events.  It makes me sick.

    How can anyone be concerned that sales will not work VERY hard if their
    "COE, commission or perks" is/are removed.
    
    How hard would you work if your salary was removed?  Hmmmm?
    
    When you take a job, you receive an offer. Engineering gets an offer,
    sales gets and offer....you decide.  Compensation is compensation.
    Take away compensation and the economics drive the decision.
    

	
	re: 107.  Speaking of wasting money:  how much money do you
	think we wasted when we changed the name of VMS to OpenVMS ...
	for the cost of reprinting expensive glossy brochures, manuals,
	and all the other related VMS things, what INCREMENTAL sales
	do you think came into Digital ????  How about the Lanworks
	(pre Pathworks) fiasco ?  There are plenty of areas outside
	of the sales incentives where we can and should stop wasting
	money without a return.

	-- gerry

    I know that this note has taken some major detours/turns, but I wanted
    to say in regards to the fact that when we hire on we do so with the
    understanding that our benefits/perks are part of the bargain.....
    I don't know how these "perk-facts" are passed on to the sales
    person who might be hiring on, but I consider health benefits part
    of my pay too and I had a rude awakening when my portion tripled
    this year.  So now should I sue?!  HA!  
    
    

    By the way,  yes.  COE is still being held.
    
    bob
    
    111 replies to answer a question.  
    sell sell sell!
    
    

    
    Well, i made it through the first 40 or so but decided what the hek!
    I'm sure that i am repeating whats already posted.
    
    I work as a PSS software consultant.  Being new to the software
    division at DEC, i worked my tail off for the past three years.  
    Throughout that period many other Software Specialists and the like 
    went to COE.  I had no problem with this since my organization was 
    included along with sales and others.
    
    I finally positioned myself to shine this year , with much ot, and
    thought that COE was in the bag.  Then i heard that the services
    organization was not eligible.  Needless to say, i was very upset and 
    find that the entire decision stinks.
    
    In brief, eighther everyone is eligible or NOBODY GOES!
    I also have opinions on the politics involved in being selected but i
    think thats been covered well.
    
    I feel sorry for all the other super hard working people that were 
    not eligible.
    
    tp

    re.112, SERVICES IS INCLUDED!.  I am in services sales, and people in
    our group are going.  You need to check with someone higher than your
    first level management.
    
    I thought that services had award programs such as DECservice awards,
    tailormade for services.  Sales is not invited to that one.
    
    All in all, what is, is.  What will be , will be.  And today, COE is
    being held, and should be.
    
    Bob
    (exiting this notesfile now.)
    

>     <<< Note 2141.113 by ODIXIE::RHARRIS "Bowhunters never hold back!" >>>
>                         -< services DOES have awards >-
>
>    re.112, SERVICES IS INCLUDED!.  I am in services sales, and people in
>    our group are going.  

Services SALES? yes, of course.  Services SALES SUPPORT? yes, of course, they
go with sales.  Services DELIVERY (the folks who make it happen after it is
sold)??? Not in these parts!!!

Yes, services does have awards.  Last quarter a couple of us got $50 vouchers.
Doesn't quite compare with a week in Hawaii, does it?
(this is an area where services delivery was ~110%+ of budget, so the argument
of the group being justly (un)rewarded don't apply.)

I can understand various groups being rewarded differently, but I have a hard
time when groups are apparently awarded disparately.  It is too tempting to
take it as a measure of the company's perception of our worth.

Kevin

>Services SALES? yes, of course.  Services SALES SUPPORT? yes, of course, they
>go with sales.  Services DELIVERY (the folks who make it happen after it is
>sold)??? Not in these parts!!!
    
    In Europe its a different story. I am a CSC Software Specialist and
    I went to Madeira for a week last year. With my manager, my managers
    manager, his manager etc. etc.
    They told us that when we performed the same next
    year, we all could win again. Well, this year a number of
    the same managers won BUT, no specialists. To expensive I presume.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jan

    to moderators, please note that notes file software is duplicating
    entries, see .115 and .116, it seems that Europe notes only are
    being treated this way. (time zone routine bug in software?).

    thank you,
    /nasser

>    to moderators, please note that notes file software is duplicating
>    entries, see .115 and .116, it seems that Europe notes only are
>    being treated this way. (time zone routine bug in software?).
    
    My fault. Tried to correct a typo. Deletion of .115 must have failed.
    
    Jan

    Then type "delete/noconfirm .115".

    re: .114 - Sorry about life in your parts - where ever you reside, but
    customer services in my neck of the woods IS going. It is puzzling that
    awards differ for the SAME organizations by region but I have no
    explaination.

    Just a few tidbits -
    
    Bob Palmer attend the GIA COE in Cancun the week after he took over
    (actually he was there only two days). I hear he was there to take a
    look at how COE was being rung to determine in any changes should be
    made.
    
    Re: one of the first few notes
         Not all folks who attend from H/Q are BLTs. I work in sales
    support in GIA H/Q and I attended COE this year as a winner, because I
    was nominated by a region in the field as recognition for all the sales
    I helped them close. So H/W people aren't ALL BLTs.
    
    I was very ambivilent about winning COE what with all the layoffs,
    losses, cutbacks, etc. I knew I had worked very hard and deserved the
    award, but it IS an awfully big expense to the company. When I
    returned, I sent a message to Bob Palmer with suggestions as to who to
    better organize the COE. He kept asking us to stop him in the hall or
    on the beach to talk and I never had a chance, so I wrote him the note
    (no response yet). Maybe some of you who are past winners should also
    write him notes with your suggestions. THe biggest thing that needs to
    change from my point of view was echoed by many other notes in
    here....there are TOO many line managers, senior managers, group
    managers, bean counters, marketing managers, etc. at these events. If
    those people were cut out (and their spouses) it would probably drop
    the number of attendees by 50%. Many of those managers seem to think
    the COE is a perk for them and until the good-old-boy network goes
    away, I'm afraid that its going to continue in the same way.
    
    Here's hoping BP does away with the GOB network.
    
    Debbie
    

    Flame on high !  I can't beleive we are still sending people on these
    COE deals when the coproration wants 20% head count reduction by Dec.
    The cuts to health care,matching gift and United Way are another slap
    in the face. Bob Palmer comes across real well when talking about
    "retun to profitabilty" but will he be like the rest who pat themselves
    on the back at the expense of so many with out jobs ?
    
    Flame off . i know there are probally some people who really deserve
    these type of perqs, in fact I could name a few. My point is if we are
    going to make cuts,reduce expenses,lessen benefits and the like then
    why can't it be consistant and across the board.
    
    I'm feeling better now.
    Thanks
    Walt

Personally, I'd rather see us spending money on people we would rather hold on
to instead of people which we are to get rid off.

    
    I just heard of a case yesterday of a Deccie attending a week-long
    conference at a hotel and was told that he could register and stay
    at the hotel if he liked.  He lives in the city where the conference
    is being held.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    This reply is being entered for a member of the noting community who
    wishes to remain anonymous.  If you would like to send mail to the
    author, send me mail and I will forward it on.


    Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    
re .122

Let this test your flash point.

How about sending someone on COE in November, and then giving them the package
in December?

	RE: .126 It's a big deal it you were told that performance has
	something to do with who gets TFSO'd. On the other hand, cynics 
	among us have doubted that performance was much protection for
	a while.

			Alfred

    re: .127
    
    Yes, we were told that performance and TFSO were related. We were also
    told that performance and COE are related. Both statements, in my
    experience, are of roughly equal veracity.

Many notes ago, someone asked where the COE was being held, since it was
supposed to be on Kauai, which was devastated by the hurricane.  Well, my
S.O. (also a DECcie; he's a software engineer and I'm a technical writer)
and I were on vacation in Hawaii last week, and quite coincidentally came across
a COE beach party at Waikoloa Beach on the Big Island.  They were staying at the
Hyatt Regency Waikoloa, which is an unbelievable resort, sort of like Disney 
World for grownups - it even has a monorail to take guests around the resort!  
(We were staying at another nearby resort, the Royal  Waikoloan, but went over 
to the Hyatt to check it out.  It has boats in addition to the monorail to
convey guests around.  I couldn't believe how big it was.  Amazing...)

FWIW.  I know you were all dying to know. :-)

							-- Nina

    re: getting COE and the old "heave-ho" together
    
    There are already situations where this has happened with COE, DEC100,
    and various other award programs.  When local management was queried
    about the seeming paradox of performance, the answer was that these
    people were not being terminated because of performance, but because
    their jobs had "gone away".  I bought that line for awhile, until the
    jobs in question were quietly backfilled with other personnel ...
    
    Anyway, suffice it to say that it comes as no surprise that you might
    be handed a plaque in one hand and a pink slip in another.

    I guess the cynical question is - 
    
    Which of the conflicting evaluations do you want to believe?  
    
    	a) You really deserved this COE and we appreciate your contribution.
    
    	b) You cost us more than you're worth in revenue potential.
    
    Pay your money and take your choice!
    
    Dick

    c) both of the above?

    I can not brew about this any longer.  So, before my late lunch
    ends.....
    
    First, I must give a little background.  I have survived two plant
    closings, 6 tfso's and two days ago was informed about the Dec. 7
    date (now how to dodge TFSO #7???).  I must also tell you that I care
    a great deal about this company.  I have always given my best and was 
    recognized well.  I am not "bashing", rather making my point of view
    known.  I also have had to let folks go (TFSO) and know the pain first
    hand.  That is why un-wise spending and lack of effort to generate
    revenue drives me CRAZY.
    
    To the point.....
    
    	At this very moment we have hundreds of Sales and Services people,
    from the V.P. level down, enjoying themselves in HAWAII.  The purpose
    of this trip.....Circle of Excellence (awards).  Yes, this is an awards
    outing.  A very EXPENSIVE awards outing.  These people are being
    recognized for doing a great job of bringing revenue into the company,
    last year.  But wait, our losses started last year.....in fact revenue
    was a down-ward trend all year running from a very small + to a BIG -.
    So how did so many people earn free trips to Hawaii that will cost the
    company and ultimately jobs?  
    
    	Why wasn't this treated like the Employee Service Recognition
    awards...Canceled.  You say, but the Sales/Services people earned their
    trip and award.....Well so did the employee who hung in for 5, 10, 15,
    etc. years.  And what about the United Way and the other contribution
    programs...are they less important than the Circles of Excellence
    awards???  What about the jobs that will be cut to reduce
    spending.....are they less important???  I think NOT!
    
    	I'd like to know why the award winners, speakers, support staff and
    others that are attending this event didn't have the courage to say
    -- I'm not going to attend, I don't want to contribute to the company's
    expense problem --.  By the way, if there were those who did not attend
    for that reason, my hat is off to you in a very big way...Thank You!
    
    	I am in favor of recognizing people for doing great work, but let's
    award folks in a way that is not offensive and contributing to a
    greater loss.  Please consider the times.
    
    	In my opinion:
    
    Circle of Excellence (COE) = Callously Offensive Expenses
    
    	By the way, the folks that went to Hawaii from my building forgot
    a case of COE slippers (give aways).  They will end up in the trash I'm
    sure.  DEC should give them to the homeless...ex-DECies.
    
    	Please, PLEASE.....Let's all do our part to save this company. 
    Believe me, it will take ALL of us doing the "right thing" all the time
    to save this company.
    
    Scott
    

    
    
    re. -last
    
    Once again, to the best of my knowledge no one from Customer Services
    below a level II manager is eligible for COE.  I am defining Customer
    Services as Field Service Hardware and Software Representatives.
    
    I have been told that if someone that was eligible, won, that
    person could nominate someone that wasn't eligible.
    
    Services Sales are eligible, but they are under the wing of Sales not
    Services.
    
    Jon Aller

    
    In another note in this conference, I vigorously defended COE and sales
    compensation as important tools in encouraging performance.  
    
    After reading .0, however, I have decided that the author is right.  We
    should be sacrificing the big awards until business improves.  I don't
    know how you do this without affecting the morale of the winners, but I
    think someone should take a look.

    Funny how everyone wants someone else to do the sacrifice to save the
    company but is not willing to make a personal sacrifice.
    
    My suggestion to save to company.  Instead of just COE winners 
    volunteering to give up part of their earned compensation, everyone  in
    the company voluteers to forgo a part of their earned  compensation as
    well until the company is profitable again.  In these times we can't
    afford the high compensation we are giving our people.  Anybody who
    really cares about the company should be happy to do their part to help
    out.

    I agree with the base noter.  Please see note # 2141 - COE Still being
    held in this conference.  It stimulated over 132 replies.  COE is
    wrong, period.
    
    re .1: it really doesn't matter who goes.  Noone should be going during
    these troubled times.
    
    re .3: Don't ask others to sacrifice our salaries, etc.  Canceling COE
    is not a sacrifice.  I'm sick of those "bleeding hearts" in sales who
    believe that COE is part of their compensation.  Bull....!
    
    I know some folks that are in Hawaii right now...believe me its a scam.
    
    I raised the subject of COE to DELTA - employee involvement.  DELTA
    sent my recommendation off to someone in sales to review.  I was
    suspose to hear some feedback with in a week.  That was over a month
    ago and I still haven't heard a thing.  Not surprised.
    
    With 7,000 more employees to be laid off by December 7th and more to
    come in 1993, there is NO just reason for COE to continue.
    
    It's just a perk and it makes me sick!!

    RE: .3 Digital employees are not highly paid. Last I heard we were
    not being paid competitively. At least software people aren't.

    I'm showing that I care by trying to work smarter and more efficient.
    I've written a tool for my group that we expect to greatly reduce time
    spent on some current development. I'll help out by going the extra
    mile to be more productive. (Things are currently running on two other
    windows and it's after my regular work hours - I start early.)

    		Alfred

Re: .3

>> My suggestion to save to company.  Instead of just COE winners 
>> volunteering to give up part of their earned compensation, everyone  in
>> the company voluteers to forgo a part of their earned  compensation as
>> well until the company is profitable again.  

   I think I've made my contribution, what with salary freezes, higher
   premiums on medical insurance and disability, and loss of my fleet car.
   If cancelling COE means fewer people get layed off and less is taken
   away from us - great.  What are our priorities anyway?

   I feel COE is too selective and political, and the award is just too big.
   That is why COE doesn't meet its objective of motivating ALL of us.
   

   Bobbi

    In a time when I wonder if and when I'll get tapped on the shoulder, 
    COE is being in Hawaii to celebrate high revenues brought in by a very
    select few. I am glad to find out out that our losses just started
    this past year. I am glad we had booming sales the past three years
    and I really enjoyed my 2 year 5% pay raise. If upper management were
    to lead by example then perhaps maybe the morale of us grunts wouldn't
    be in the dumpster. Paraprasing BP, he is supposed to be a no nonsense
    kind of guy and will do whatever it takes to return the survivors back
    to profitability, I sure hope so before the janitor turns the lights
    off.
    	regards
    	John

    I have a colleague in the office who went to the GIA COE (Cancun
    Mexico) and met up with Bob Palmer. According to him, Bob said his
    purpose of attending the COE is to talk to the attendees, get their
    opinions, and also to see how COE is conducted. I'm not spreading
    rumours so draw your own conclusions.

    
    And for those of us unrewarded ICs (read Insignificant Contributors), 
    it remains for us to take solace in finally solving the mystery of
    the gaping "Black Hole" in the corporate balance sheet.
    
    Nor should it go unnoticed elsewhere.
              

    This whole topic is a misnomer - the trips to Hawaii, at least by the
    field grunts, are not given out "free" BY ANY STREACH!! As per re: .1 -
    I KNOW per FACT and by name that a Customer services field person went
    on the basis of HIS OWN nomination - not NAY manager - so your info is
    WRONG - period. RE: .4 - COE is RIGHT !! - period !! FOr the filed
    folks - at least sales- it IS a contractual legal obligation as per the
    Measurement criteria which Sales is measured by. Any opinions to the
    contrary that it is bleeding heart, no contractual are simply that - and 
    WRONG to boot. I suggesty the real bleeding heart is the socialistic
    attitude in .4 ! You may disagree with the policy and approach - that
    is fine - but at the very least, it IS part of the contract. 
    
    re: .6 - If you think cancelling COE would result in less TSFOs, then
    you must be a REAL optomist - and I thought I was one!
    
    The WHOLE issue with COE is VERY simple, it is 2 fold and synergistic -
    #1 - Does it - or does it SEEM to function as a motivator to
    extraordinary - contribute directly to the BOTTOM LINE - performance?
    If yes (or seems) = do it!, #2 Do those who get it, like it - in
    general? (As a function of the response to #1) - then "carry on Garth"
    
    The issue of several (possibly) of ones good friends, exceptionally
    competent workers, etc. getting laid off is of course disturbing - I
    myself spent 1 week, 3 weeks ago searching for a new job which I
    fortunately got - so I KNOW about this one.  Viewing elimination of COE as 
    a place  to relieve TSFO stress is understandable - as an emotional
    reaction - but it is not an effective way to address the problem. I
    believe it would prove economically less viable as a net result. Should
    not THAT be the emphasis and the focus of a 3rd party objective study?
    It is the only way to come to a valid decision point on continuation. I
    does not matter if you LIKE it, if you go to it, etc. What matters is
    if it gives a positive net gain to DEC. That is my opinion, would it
    change your opinion of it to know that I am (male, female, white,
    black, asian, gay, hetro, a winner of COE, a multiple time winner, an
    never winner, a new employee, an "old timer", young, old, sales,
    customer services, engineer, manufacturing, etc.?) I hope not. (BTW,
    the 1st option is a freebee - see my first name). 
    to "relieve stream" 

re .143

I understand your anger, I think. However, the question that seems to
be the root of this discussion is:  Since just about every other form
of recognition has been cancelled, doesn't it seem prudent that COE also
be cancelled - or at least held in a place that isn't as easily
recognizable as a boondoggle - Say somewhere like Cape Cod instead
of Hawaii.   

Speaking for myself - I work with customers, and have spent time working
at customer sites.  Influencing customer satisfaction, and my group
has contributed to Digital landing sales.   However, I am not eligible
for COE, because, as many others, I don't work for the 'right' group.

At a time when even the smallest recognition program is being cancelled
- it only makes sense that the most recognizable also be cancelled - until
we achieve profit again.    This is a total company effort.   No matter 
what the nuances involved, it sends the wrong message to folks to have
some rewards (to the many) cancelled, while others (to the few) continue.

It a symbolic gesture.   Having a reward in Hawaii for a few doesn't boost
morale to the thousands who also contribute to this company's bottom line -
the thousands who have lost all of the meager rewards/recognitions they
can win.  

JD

    Re: .144:
    
    > Say somewhere like Cape Cod instead of Hawaii.
    
    Wait, COE (if not cancelled outright) could be preserved as a LOCAL
    event.  So Cape Cod would be a suitable destination for folks in the
    GMA but not others spread around the USA and other countries.
    Definitely in these non-profitable times, leave out Hawaii, except for
    Hawaiians.

    Well, we've done 144 notes on this topic.  Please take a
    moment to wonder if your assumptions could be wrong.  What if
    COE is considered a part of the compensation plan for eligible
    employees?  If your "pay" is 90% salary and 10% COE and other
    incentives, you might feel picked on if the event was
    cancelled while other groups receive 100% of their pay.
    
    But of course, now I can complain about how the COE people
    were selected, because I'm not receiving 100% of my "pay."
    There's never a shortage of things to complain about.

Interesting feedback from one of my buddies who just returned from COE:

	1- Yes, COE is on again next year (in Hawaii)

	2- only about 1/3 of the participants appeared to be field 
	   sales/support.  Many other "corporate" types were there

	3- There WERE field service people there

My feeling, as someone who is eligible for COE, is that it is necessary to
reward overachievers in ALL areas of DEC.  I know I have to bust my butt
to make COE, and even if I seriously overkill my budget there's no guarantee
I make it.  Them's the facts.  Every group in DEC has overachievers who
warrant this kind of recognition.  Make sure all are eligible, not just
some butt-kissing corporate lackeys.

Bob

  I'm sick.

  On the periphery I've been involved with a sales proposal (hardware,
  software, services) to a customer amounting to about $200K.  This was/is
  to be a prototype/model publishing solution for a U.S. state organization.
  The proposal was delivered to the Digital salesperson Nov. 6th, who in turn
  was expected to add some value (brochures, prices, etc.) to the package
  before it was delivered to the potential customer shortly thereafter.  The
  Digial salesperson "was expecting" the proposal in their office on the 6th 
  of November.  The customer expected the proposal the week of Nov 9th.

  The customer called today to find out where the proposal was.  I just found
  out that the salesperson was at COE in Hawaii and hadn't left instructions
  about how to get the package to the customer in a timely fashion.  The
  customer was not "delighted."   The salesperson will contact the customer 
  this Friday -- at the earliest.

  I'm sick and tired.  I'm going home.

    re:
    
              <<< Note 2141.148 by JOKUR::BOICE "When in doubt, do it." >>>
                      -< Another Side of COE, Uncommon, I'm Sure >-
    
    Not so uncommon, I'm afraid.  I just got done with a very similar
    situation.  Salesperson hands me a copy of an RFP that is incomplete. 
    It had been faxed and the customer's fax had pulled mulitple pages
    during the scan so I was missing some pieces.  I didn't realize this
    until I was talking to the customer trying to fill things in.  So I
    went over to the salesperson's mailbox and pulled out the copy that had
    been mailed to him.  During this time I am putting together the whole
    proposal - no input from sales.
    
    I work on the proposal the whole week the salesperson is in Hawaii and
    leave the pricing section for him.  He has two days after returning
    from COE to complete the pricing.  He doesn't come in the first day.  I
    am scrambling trying to get the pricing (about which I know nothing) so
    I can get the proposal done.  He shows up at 4pm and says he got an
    extension until Friday.  I refrain from strangling him and tell him it
    is now his responsibility to get the pricing done so we can deliver it
    on Friday.  He does not get it done on Wednesday or Thursday, does not
    tell me, and goes off on vacation on Friday.  I am left with exactly
    the same as what I gave him on Tuesday.  Another support person and I
    work all day Friday getting the stuff together.  (Am I comfortable with
    the numbers in this proposal - NOT).  I complete the proposal at 5pm. 
    Call the customer and ask if I can deliver it on Monday.  He says he
    wasn't going to read it over the weekend anyway, so just have it there
    first thing Monday morning.  I leave my house at 6am to get the
    proposal to the customer.  Customer says proposal looks good.  Sales
    input = 0.  Sales is a `COE performer'.  Sales support gets a 3
    performance rating from management.
    
    Yes, it does happen.  Despite this, I still believe in offering COE as
    a reward.  I have earned it in the past.  I guess I enjoyed it so much
    because I was able to give a couple of trips to my wife that I could
    never have afforded on my own.  The 60 hour weeks and weeks away from
    my family seemed worth it to see the enjoyment my wife received.  The
    $ value of the extra business I helped bring in easily paid for the
    couple of thousand it takes to send us.
    
    tgc

    we all have war stories to tell....let us not

    I have been a Digit the past 5 years, and have heard nothing but
    whining from sales on how they should be paid more - like those from
    other computer companies, but not commissioned; how they should 'own'
    the business; how they are 'relationship' type people; etc. etc.  I
    have watched sales salaries just about double - more than that with
    incentives (such as we don't get).  Over the same period of time, I
    have noticed profit and sales volume dwindle until we're laying off
    about 25% of the work force.  
    
    Yet...  The people who whined for these 'superior' salesmen - like Jack
    Smith, are still employed
    
    The people who supported the high-priced sales force - like area VP's
    of sales, etc. are still employed.
    
    Ken was not entirely correct with his belief that the better mouse-trap
    was the key to success - the world has to know of it before they'll
    come to you - but... this new way seems far less successful.
    
       
    i HAVE 

    
    	   I just received my performance appraisal for 1993 YTD.  On
    	that form were two boxes... DEC100 Eligible and COE Eligible.
    	The DEC100 box was marke Y... the COE box marked N.  This being
    	the first time an "N" has ever appeared in that category for me,
    	I naturally inquired as to why I was inelligible.  My manager
    	claimed ignorance... said he didn't know, but that everyone 
    	across the nation had an N in that box this time... and then
    	mumbled something about the eligibility requirements not having
    	been established.  He went on to say there was nothing anyone 
    	could do about it, so I might as well not even try.
    
    	   And then it was pointed out that COE is definitely being held
    	this year.  So I come into DIGITAL and find that it's not only
    	being held, but that some folks have already been awarded the COE
    	(which I found interesting since the fiscal year isn't over).
    
    	   So what gives?  Something smells remarkably like rotten fish
    	around here.  To be honest, I'm considering leaving the company
    	before COE is held anyway, so it doesn't really matter... I just 
    	want to know if I'm being lied to (and if so, why).
    
    	- Greg

    
    Hey Greg,
    
    Tell me more about Company Loyalty.
    
    Gotcha!
    ;-)
    -Ed
    

    
    	   If you need to be told, it's hardly worth the discussion.
    
    	- Greg

    
    Snicker!
    
    -Ed
    

    
    	   No serious responses to my questions, I see.
    
    	- Greg

 >>>   No serious responses to my questions, I see.
    
Probably because we all are tired of beating a dead horse.
    -Mike Z.

    I am a sales support manager in NYC.  I don not know of anyone here
    who has won COE for FY'93.  Since the criteria for sales is primarily
    related to budget performance, I don't expect the selection process to
    begin until the June/July (end of fiscal year) time frame.
    
    The COE event for FY'92 winners was held in November.
    
    Peter Dillard

>>    who has won COE for FY'93.  Since the criteria for sales is primarily
>>    related to budget performance, I don't expect the selection process to
>>    begin until the June/July (end of fiscal year) time frame.
  

Yeah but.....Peter, don't you know that COE is attended by many HQ and 
management types who are likely nominating themselves at this very moment?



Many facetious ;')

Bob

    Actually Bob, given this discussion I took notice of the number of
    'non-winners' in attendance at this year's event.  I'm certain that I
    don't know everyone in the US field so I can't claim to have an
    absolute knowledge, but I saw relatively few.  Many of the
    'non-winners' I saw were staff who had some responsibility for running
    the event.  The others were VPs of one or another group and Bob Palmer.
    
    I spoke with one of the other people and asked how many non-winners
    they had seen and they said quite a few.  But upon further inquiry I
    found that most of the non-winners he was naming were in fact winners.
    
    It is clear to me that communication of winners is pretty well confined
    to the groups those people are in.  I saw a number of people from past
    Digital lives and I would never have known they had won without seeing
    them at the event.
    
    Peter Dillard

What I meant, Peter, was that I understand there was a number of management
and HQ "winners" last year.  The field has very objective criteria for winning
COE.  I would imagine others' criteria is a bit more subjective.

Well, I didn't count non-winners, but there did seem to be an inordinate 
number of 'corporate' types, especially from the services organization (where 
there were rumours of NO COE winners - NOT!)...

There were also what I would classify as 'career' COE winners. Those who seem 
to win every year and have been to COE 4 or more times. I'm sure some of these 
people deserved everything they got, but I just got the feeling that some of 
the career winners didn't really have to do anything that spectacular to win.
Their behavior made it seem like hey expected to go as part of their 
compensation.

In our District, the winners are carefully considered and although not 
everyone may agree with who won, I feel good about the process and that 
politics are kept to a minimum in the decision-making process. And COE is a 
sought-after award that not only provides a trip to an exotic location, it 
also recognizes the individual for their efforts.

Regards,

Jim

    I understand that BP and several others were in Hawaii last 
    week (??) *personally* checking out the location chosen for COE. 
    Travelled by corporate jet, of course.

    	I bet he doesn't have to search an entire building for
    transparencies and post-it notes either.

    
    Here's the latest & greatest on COE.
    
    
    
                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     04-Mar-1993 08:54am EST
                                        From:     Russ Gullotti @MRO
                                                  V.P.,U.S.AREA AT A1 at SALES at MRO
                                        Dept:     U.S. Area
                                        Tel No:   

TO: See Below

Subject: CIRCLE OF EXCELLENCE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA                   

       We continue to evaluate the way in which we motivate, reward, and 
       recognize field individuals who win significant business for 
       Digital.  As we do this, we need to also ensure our recognition 
       programs are designed to have an impact on our return to 
       profitability.
       
       In conjunction with this direction, we have revised the eligibility 
       criteria for CIRCLE OF EXCELLENCE to be more in line with the 
       leading industry directions in rewarding significant over 
       achievement, consistency, and winning and managing the delivery of 
       customer business.
       
       The 1993 U.S. CIRCLE OF EXCELLENCE event will be held at the GRAND 
       HYATT WAILEA, MAUI, HAWAII.   The event will take place between 
       September 26 and October 6.
       
       The corporation is committed to the CIRCLE OF EXCELLENCE program and 
       looks for your support as we continue with this significant 
       recognition program designed to motivate and drive significant 
       performance.
       
       On the following page you will find the revised FY93 eligibility 
       criteria. 

                         COE FY93 ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA
     
     
     Direct Sales - Performance        	10% of DEC100 Winners       
     
     Direct Sales - Consistency        	Must achieve DEC100 5 out 
     				       	of previous 6 years of DEC100
     				       	eligibility.
     
     
     Account Group Sales Support       	5% of DEC100 Winners
     
     
     MCS Management			District Managers and
     					Business Managers having
     					direct profit responsibilities.
     
     					A District Manager who wins 
     					"MCS Excellence" will win COE.
     					(this means meeting both a
     					customer survey and a business/
     					margin $ goal). The top DMs will
     					be selected.
     
     					A Business Manager who meets
     					directly assigned financial
     					performance metrics (revenue,
     					expenses, margin) will win COE.
     
     MCS Portfolio 			Any other manager or employee
     					who works directly with 
     					customers and has formally set
     					financial and customer 
     					satisfaction goals can be 
     				        nominated.
     
     Professional Services		Any manager achieving business
       					goals (revenue, expense, 
     					profitability) will be eligible 
     					for selection. Any PS employee 
     					directly contributing to revenue 
     					generation & to success of PS.
     
             					 
     Staff positions, at US and Portfolio, are not eligible to win or be 
     nominated for COE in FY93.
     
     "Sales" includes representatives and managers for Account, Specialty 
     and Services selling.
     

    walking on water, will help, too...
    
    q