Conference 7.286::digital

    FWIW I heard it too.
    
    Mark

    I heard it too, FWIW.  The one I heard was that it would be offered
    to everyone, except for a core group of about 1000 critical people.
    Any guesses whether all 125+ VP's would be in that list of 1000?
    
    

re "I heard it too":

5% of American adults believe they've been abducted by aliens.

    
    That's the new package: you volunteer, then aliens take you away. 
    
    It's called TFSO: The Flying Saucer Option. 

    FWIW, I've heard it as well, but a second part of the rumor I heard was
    that this new package would be the last one (i.e. more layoffs, or ahhh
    rightsizing, but no more TFSOs).  If you ask me, that is additional 
    incentive to take it... then again, maybe it's the best way to get out 
    the door, those that may not want to be part of Digital anymore.  No,
    wait, let me guess, this new 'package won't be a TFSO, but a NIODP, a
    New & Improved Open Door Policy... :)

    The rumour from the USA that reached the UK was that everyone in the
    USA would be offered a years salary to depart.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Andy (in the UK)

Ahhh Gi'day...

    I've heard  7  months,  and about 20,000 to go.  There will be CHAOS if
    this  happens,  I  mean  how  much  restructuring,  reorg-ing, building
    consolidation, moves, etc etc etc will have to take place after this.

    20,000 is  probably  about  100 facilities that have to do.  Either way
    out, you'll have to pack your bags. Don't expect much to happen H1FY93

    I've been hearing this for awhile now, however no one knows when. Has
    anyone heard when this might be offered?
    

Re .4,.5 ("The Flying Saucer Option"), ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Thanks for
a great tidbit of humor and insight into what would otherwise be
another pitiful rumour-mongering exercise.

See ya on Proxima Centauri Five ... I'm outta here ...

    I don't see the 7 mos or year's salary 'cause of legal implications.
    It would have to be what is it now, or less.
    
    ...the flying saucer thing was hilarious BTW.
    
    Mark

RE: Flying Saucer....

I hate to think what relo costs are going to run on this one!!!!

Keith R>

    WHY??  TFSO and SERP are two different packages.  
    
    

    
    I thought TFSO was the plan being implemented to reduce the number of
    employees by 80%:  Toss Four, Save One.
    
    - David
    

    I recently attended a Q&A session with a top level manager, and this
    same question was asked. The reply was that there would never be a 
    TFSO package opened to volunteers from the employee population in
    general. In certain cases of downsizing volunteering has been allowed, 
    but the company tends to lose too many of the people that it wants to
    keep. 
    
    Linda
    
    

    I agree ... if it were offered at one site, then all sites should be
    allowed to do it.  And, that would lead to a mass exodus from DEC.
    

    This reminds me of our last pay freeze. There was a rumor that there
    was going to be a pay freeze, so I asked my manager about it. He said
    no way. Digital lost too many good people from the last one. Two days
    later, the pay freeze was announced in the Wall Street Journal. Even
    after WSJ announced it, I was never told about it from my management.
    
    So I don't believe any of it until it is announced by people in the
    know - that being the WJS.

    I don't really believe that a wholesale offer would lead to a wholesale
    exodus. Let's take New England employees as an example. Most of the
    existing people who have been laid off can't find a job; the majority 
    of people would regard it as foolish to take the package right now.
    
    What it might mean, though, is that the deadwood stays low and survives
    the cuts, only to bring the company further down later on.
    
    Ray

> Most of the
> existing people who have been laid off can't find a job

That's interesting. I hadn't heard that, and it doesn't match my
limited experience. Can you point to a source for this info?

>    What it might mean, though, is that the deadwood stays low and survives
>    the cuts, only to bring the company further down later on.

I keep hearing the term "deadwood" used around layoffs, RIF, and other 
termination plans.  What I don't hear is the real problem.

You fire deadwood.  You lay off (or RIF) competent, useful employees that you
can't otherwise afford.  "Deadwood" is all the excuse you ever need to get rid
of someone, and you don't have to wait for something like SERP or TFSO to get
rid of them.

For the life of me, I can't understand where the expectation that TFSO or SERP
exists to get rid of deadwood comes from.

But, I think I understand one of the real problems:  If we still have "deadwood"
in the company, it's probably due to one of two reasons (anecdotal examples of
deadbeat employees excepted):
	1. They aren't deadwood, but rather useful employees that someone else
	   doesn't consider to be useful or productive
	2. No one really knows who the deadwood is or how to identify it

You can turn any employee into deadwood.  You can also turn any employee into
"unemployed" (for the short term, at least).  It's just that neither of those
pursuits happen to do anything useful for the company.

And, the assumption that "only the deadwood stays" also assumes that someone
who is "deadwood" enjoys their position.  In my years at DEC, I've met a lot of
productive employees, and I've met a few non-productive employees, but I've
never met anyone that's said "Boy, I have a great time sponging off the company,
and I want to do that for years to come!".  What I have met are a lot of
frustrated people trying, for the large part unsuccessfully, to find the right
intersection of their job skills with the company's expectations of them.

Somehow, the employee always gets blamed (or has to pay the price) when that
intersection can't be found.

    Re .12 (Keith):
    
    No costs.  The aliens pick up the tab. (SERP = Saucerian Experiments on
                                           (Removed Personnel)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

Actually, a voluntary severance plan was how it was done (or rather how it is
being done) here in Germany.  It's what is called an Interessenausgleich/Sozial-
plan (or compensation and social plan...roughly translated :-).  There was also
a bit of a concern that "deadwood" would stay, and the people that we need 
would go.  My general assessment of it is that, those people that know they
are good (or at least think they are :-) will take the money (it was pretty 
decent) and go get a job at another company.  People that, for whatever reason,
don't want to loose their job at DEC will stay.  None-the-less, there were a
planned ~190 "Betriebsbedingte K�ngidungen" (lay-offs ...english can be much 
more succinct at times :-) in spite of the almost 400 that took the money and
ran (you have to realize that, although the number may seem small, we've only
got about 4,000 employees, so it's around 10%+).

I think that no matter how it is done, the company looses good people.  You 
can never be guaranteed to get rid of the "deadwood" (mostly because noone
really knows how to identify it.  Although I think the comment made in an 
earlier note is "spot on", ie, it's not deadwood, but good talent that is not
being properly put to use).  There's just no good way to rightsize, period.
All you can do is to lay people off, and that is usually decided at a manage-
ment level that has no real contact with the people (or groups) that get
canned, and therefore has no real idea about the talent, work ethics, whatever,
of the people involved, and unfortunately may also have no idea about the long-
term effects and problems they are causing.

sigh...

Rob

    Or perhaps Starship Enterprise Retirement Package !
    
    Well you have to have a laugh sometimes... Its only sane !
    
    Chris

Ahhh Gi'day...

    The "voluntary"  package  from Germany wasn't quite "voluntary" in more
    than  a  few cases.  You were called into personnel, told you were on a
    "list" to be terminated, and you had an "option" to take the package.

   Actually, I think the new Employee Purchase Plan for PCs is how the
   new TFSO selections are going to be made.  This is how it would work.
   
   1) Let's say some 10000 employees take advantage of buying a PC with
      the Digital "loan" (payroll deduction for 2 yrs.).
   
   2) The average purchase is $2500.
   
   3) None of them worry about the Ts & Cs which state that upon
      voluntary or involuntary termination they owe Digital the full
      amount NOW.
   
   4) Digital terminates all of the 10000 people who took the loan deal.
      Some sort of termination package is offered.
   
   5) Digital gives each employee $xxxx and the employees each give $2500
      back to Digital for the PCs they bought.
   
   
   Advantages to Digital:
   
   A) $25M in sales.
   
   B) Easy to determine who "gets it".
   
   C) They still get to write off the severance package.

    I'm one of them. I was taken to a base in the pines called MKO, where
    my brains were scrambled. I commute to work in some sort of trance.
    Frm my cube I watch the sunshine of another planet through the windows.
    I believe I am being used as part of some vast experiment among the
    aliens. I break through my trance at times and remember vaguely
    certain words; laughter; accomplishment; ideas; stability.
    But I must end quickly! I hear footsteps approaching!   

    
    Deadwood = People with titles like:
    
    Marketing Manager, SCSI Cables
    Director of Ethernet Terminator Development
    Senior Marketing Manager, TK-50 Tapes
    
    Seriously, I'm sure we have some titles around here that would raise 
    some eyebrows.
    
    -Ed
    

    I think DEC should layoff as many people as necessary - give them as
    little as possible, and then give the remaining people a bonus!  This
    would be the best way to increase productivity!
    
    Just my opinion...
    
    -jb

    re .27;
    
    >Deadwood = People with titles like:
    
    >Marketing Manager, SCSI Cables
    
    Ed, can you give me his name, please? I am having serious problems
    getting hold of a SCSI cable for a DS5000-200....
    
    Peter.
    
    P.S> The note is facetious; the cable problem is not.
    
    

    could always use a RIF system that another company uses (name
    withhel).  Each and every department has to get rid of at least one
    person each time a RIF comes up, even if that department has only
    one employee!!!  In that instance, the entire department is gone
    and the company does without.
    
    Linda
    

	RE  .20

	For the most part, I agree.  However, I'd also challenge directly
	the common assumption that during RIFs etc., it's the great or at
	least near-great employees who are the first to leave.

	From what I've seen it's the great self-promoters who are usually
	the first out the door.   Whether there's any correlation between 
	self-promotional skills and  any other useful skill remains to be
	demonstrated, insofar as I've observed them.

	To be a little less subtle:  I chose to come to work for DEC, and
	for a variety of reasons chose to remain here until recently when
	the Special Early Retirement Program was announced.  How that may
	qualify me as deadwood, I freely admit, I fail to comprehend.


			Charlton

    I've seen a lot of good people selected (Sonderbehandlung) not because
    they were incompetent but mainly because they were not politically
    astute enough.  It continues to make me wonder why unsuccessful
    employees are retained, promoted, given new titles, and allowed to go
    up the ladder to fail again.  At each stage, the people on the floor,
    the engineers, first line supervisors realize some of these people
    don't have a clue as to how to run a business, but there is always a
    slot for them in the organization.  I do think that if the employees
    had a choice, you would generally loose those with potential.  Those
    are the ones who can find another job easily, are willing to take
    chances, etc.  We have a lot of people who would have trouble marketing
    their skills on the outside.  How do you put on your resume that you
    ran a plant at a mega-loss, DL/IL ratio of .3, and never really got to
    understand the product or customers.  Those are some of the people that
    have to stay with DEC because no one else on the outside is going to
    hire them.  The unfortunate thing is that some of the deadwood doesn't
    even know that it's deadwood.  We have levels upon levels, kingdoms
    upon dukedoms, etc., etc.  Usefullness, efficiency, gave way to
    duplication, and waste.  These bureaucracies are peopled by some of the
    most politically astute in the company, that's how they built the
    kingdoms, dukedoms, etc.  Who do you think will stay and who will go?
    
    Dave 

    re .20

    
    RE: .32 - Unfortunately, it seems that when you experience mega growth
    despite oneself, different goals have a knack of surfacing. It's the
    old "My part of the business is booming for now, we're rolling in $$$, so 
    let's set our priorities towards self-rewards".  A bad technical decision 
    may not surface for years, so it becomes unimportant. What becomes
    important is power games.  Not what you know, but who you know.  Much
    like congress - with no clear goals for everyone, you replace them with
    competing individual goals.  Like the boss man says, good times bring
    bad times as sure as shadows lengthen as sun heads down.
    
    What does get lost in all this is any prior culture that may have
    existed where the notions of "do the right thing" meant providing
    opportunities at making profit for the company which in turn profits
    you. If that is attempted out-of-band to the current political 
    juggernaught, the odds a very good you will end up with some very 
    skilled technical individuals badly scarred, cynical or both.  If they 
    have enough political savy to survive these times of "other priorities", 
    they have nonetheless been conditioned to offering solutions that 
    appease rather than break new ground. (more like they break more wind 
    than anything else). In this industry, that can lead to sudden death.
    
    
    We're suffering in many areas of this company from this phenomena. We
    had a spell when too many people caught glimpses of themselves in the
    spotlight, and attributed all our success (of the time) to themselves.
    They believed their own notices... They stopped listening to those
    within the company and most surely with the folk paying the freight
    (our customers). They stomped on anyone who dared question their wisdom 
    - hey, how can you dare question a shining star? What does simple logic 
    have to do with things when big ego's rule?
    
    So, we have more than a few very expensive disastors receiving deserved
    frosty reactions from our customers.  The spotlights glare has turned
    harsh, and the real worry about profit and jobs and careers are
    beginning to have their effect - a bit too late for those TFSO'd, but
    happening nonetheless.  I hear management asking questions I was
    beginning to feel I only dreamed hearing in the long ago DEC - how do
    we make things better, how do we make you feel empowered? I wonder
    if we can really heal the cynicism, the wounds, without bringing in
    more young and innocents to fuel it?   I wonder whether we can figure
    how to keep our priorities intact when (if) we return to market
    leadership?  Can we deal with self-criticism and instrospection without
    breaking into fits of hysteria?  Can we accept what our angry customers
    are telling use before they all become former customers?
    
    These are the tests we'll have to pass to get the growth going again!
    Hard and simple, but quite necessary.
    
    bob
    
    

    re: .20
    
    execellent, but I'd like to add that if the deadwood is created then
    it implies the management that created it isn't doing their job...!!!
    
    Yet no one seems to take notice...

    I could have sworn the nature of this topic concerned the voluntary
    severance package......guess not

    we were talking about noter's infinite ability to rathole any topic.
    
    karl, waiting for Q1

    The rumors contained within this note seem to indicate that there
    will be a TFSO package offered in Q1.  However, nobody is saying who
    it will be offered to, and how much money will be in the package.
    
    My guess is that it will be a much lower amount of money, say 10-12
    weeks (not months) of salary, and it will be offered to entire groups
    such as administration, finance, manufacturing - but not to sales
    or technical support and maybe not even to engineering.  Our company
    can afford to cut back in the overhead departments, but not in the
    revenue generating departments.
    
    This is all just my opinion, of course.
    
    -JW-

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    I don't agree, I think next time they will start to hit the places that
    have  only  been  talked  about up to now.  There are places in Digital
    where 50% (yes 50%) of the workforce have been laid off.

    Look at that as a goal, any less than that will be a silver cloud.

RE .38 JW,

You bring up a question that I raised in a note not too long ago, but that has
yet to be answered.  The opinions ranged from: management knows who, what, when
and how much (paraphrased :-), to: management has no idea whatsoever about what
their doing.  Noone "in the know" has been willing to step up and inform the
employees about what is being planned, and Ken Olsen was even a *bit* adamant
about the fact that the employees don't have the right to know.

Whereas I think that it would be good to thin out the overhead, I fear that
that will not be the case.  There will be endless, meaningless, meetings by
the "overhead" to figure out what part of the work force can go.  Eventually,
this company will be nothing but overhead.  The real work will be bought from
outside companies and consultants so that the overhead can continue to collect
their fat pay checks on stuff that they buy cheap from "outsources" and sell
high with DEC's name on it...just *my* opinion.

Rob

    re .40
    
    Bingo, I think one of the problems is that during the past couple of
    years DEC has been saying they have a head-count problem not that its
    payroll was too high.  Consequently, a $100K/yr manager when faced with
    the need to "downsize" would look at lists of $25K-65K employees and
    start checking off names.  (No one stopped to think that you need to
    roughly lay-off four at 25K to make up for the impact of one at 100K) 
    On top of that I bet a lot of those 100K+/yr managers would be able to
    command less than half their DEC salary on the outside, if that.  I
    cannot imagine any of them looking down from their floating island of
    Laputa, and viewing hourly, engineering, etc. (i.e. grunts) as little more
    than expendable subhumanoids.
    
    The other problem is sort of a statistical one.  What is the
    probability that the hierarchy that allowed the company to become
    bloated, inefficient, non-comptetive, redundant, and short-sighted will
    magically arrive at the optimum formula for future success?  I'll bet
    the 95% confidence interval around that includes '0'.
    
    I remember some one talking about baseball and when a team has a losing
    season, you don't fire the team, you fire the .......!
    
    Dave

    re .40 and .41
    
    Of course, if you believe that work is done by managers, then your
    whole analysis goes down the tubes.  :-)
    
    Seriously, there is a myth that managers do necessary work.  Until that
    myth is defeated, the scenario you paint will continue to occur.
    
    Dick

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    What did  British  Telecom  do  when they privatised? They sacked 5,000
    managers if my memory serves me correctly...  They now make $$$$$$$$$$$

    Haven't got time to read 10 - 42 but I overheard the rumour in the
    local Chinese eating place - if the 3 of you read this you should be a
    little more carefull of what you are saying in public - 1st July
    through September. 1 years money. 20,000.
    
    but: the food isn't very good either !.

    Well you got one thing right: DEC has always said it's got a headcount
    problem not a payroll problem. When you say a $100k manager makes as
    much impact as four $25k people,you're wrong! The four $25K guys make
    MUCH more of an impact to DEC's finances when you consider benefits.
    
    Ken

re: .45,

>    When you say a $100k manager makes as
>    much impact as four $25k people,you're wrong! The four $25K guys make
>    MUCH more of an impact to DEC's finances when you consider benefits.
    
	By this logic, we should all be paid $100k then!  After all, the
    salary doesn't matter - it's just the benefits that cost money right?

    				   -davo

    Query :  the involuntary TFSOed persons' positions were not eligible to
    be re-filled, neh ?  What does the rumor mill say about slots vacated
    by lucky VOLUNTARY TFSO persons ?  Will the positions disappear, or
    could they be filled from within the ranks ?
    
    karl

    Re .45 & .46
    
    The point I didn't make in .41 was that a manager at DEC making 100K
    but worth less than half that on the outside is probably making
    decisions that are costing the company millions not thousands.  That
    guy making 25K isn't in a position to screw up in the same order of
    magnitude.  So if you take that into consideration getting rid of one
    of those 100K guys would probably be the equivalent of many more than
    just four 25K guys.
    
    DAR

    "magnitude of screwup" isn't taken into account when decisions are made
    about layoffs. What *is* taken into account are the cold,hard numbers
    appearing on a report. These numbers usually indicate that the four
    $25K guys are costing a lot more in bennies than that one 100K guy.
    
    Ken

    When you add in the extra perks -- stock options, "working" at 
    company-paid boondogles in the form of "excellence awards", etc., the
    $100K guy makes closer to $200K and costs a lot more than 4 $25K guys,
    bennies and all.

    I'd be willing to bet that the four low-paid types are costing bunches
    more for the big one...medical care. After all,the 100K guy probably
    eats better and doesn't get ulcers worrying about his/her job!
    
    Ken

    "how much does a person cost" rathole aside, I'd appreciate a response 
    to my question in number .47, which is specific to this topic.
    
    karl

    Nobody seems to have mentioned the major benefit of a voluntary
    program (as it appears to me!)......
    
    Once the volunteers have gone, the remainder are the people who really
    want to stay and make a success of Digital.
    
    (British Airways did just this, and transformed their customer service
    in a very short time.)
    
    Of course this assume all the people who stay have a value, and will
    have to be fitted in to the organisation, or have the organisation
    adjusted to make the best use of their talents.
    
    That's a job for management, albeit one that requires more effort than
    just cutting chunks off the organisation. It's also about managing
    people, so that makes it more difficult/challenging too! But it's what
    I believe managers are paid for.
    
    It also implies moving back to some of the old values we used to have
    regarding our most valuable asset, people. I also think that would be a
    good thing for the long-haul.
    
    JFK

Re:  47

	Once someone has accpeted the package, volentarily or involentarily, 
the headcount is cut.

Pierce

    I'd like to confirm or deny a bit of information that passed by my cube
    this morning about he voluntary program.  The person was saying that
    the company was going to offer a 13 + 3 weeks/year program in June so
    that FY 92 financials take the hit instead of FY93.
    
    Anybody able to confirm or update this info.?

>    Anybody able to confirm or update this info.?

	I suspect that anyone who really knows would know better then to
	say so before the official announcement. The approval cycle on these
	these things tend to get final approval only minutes before announcement.
	Until then nothing is really real.

			Alfred

        Heard on the radio this morning - more jobs being cut this week 
        at other high-tech companies (most in Mass.)
       
    
       Raytheon  - Layoff of 700
       Wang      - Layoff of 1000

    
    Personally, I'm surprised Wang is still in business.

    Didn't IBM pump $100Milliom into them last year.
    
    q
    

    
    
    	Can't leave out Alliant who just let 165 people go, about 65% of
    	its' work force.
    	 
    
    						Mike
    						----

    Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't there *already* a voluntary
    severance package?  As in two weeks' notice?  Why should DEC pay a
    dime to anyone who *wants* to leave?
    
    Geoff
    

    
    
    I dunno either, but I'm sure grateful that you're not "Mr.DEC"
     and just work here like the rest of us. {;^).
    
      Nuff said !
    
        Paul
    

    re .61 We go round and round on this voluntary severance vs. the "If
    you hate it here so much. then just quit" camps.
    
    Digital is trying to reduce the headcount. There are (IMHO) probably
    not more then a few people who would like to leave the company and:
    
    Start their own small business.
    Retire.
    Work smoewhere else.
    Move to somewhere else to look for work or start their own business.
    Choose any of the above or someothers that I probably haven't thought
    of.
    
    These people really can't afford to do so, as they have families to
    support and bills to pay.  They don't want to just quit. They're ready
    for something else though.
    
    DEC, by offering them an incentive to leave, might just put these folks
    in a situation where they will leave happily or with mixed emotions.
    DEC, by having them leave, gets a little closer to it's goal of reduced
    headcounts and a return to profitability. (At least that's the idea)
    DEC, by offering the incentive, is proving the company still has a
    heart (others disagree I know. Remember this is IMHO) They only have to
    give you money for time worked and I think, accrued vacation pay. They
    don't have to give you anything else. I've been layed off this way
    before. It ain't pretty.
    
    This isn't a: So you want to quit. Ok here's a whole bunch of money and
    extended medical coverage. 
    
    It's a: "We have to reduce our headcount. Your job is superflouous and
    you will be let go. You've been a great, productive, cooperative,
    employee for many years. Here's a little bit more then standard
    severance. Thank you for your loyalty and hard work. (I know this is
    questioned a great deal by others, both here and elsewhere. THis is
    just how I see what the severance program is supposed to be)
    
    Phil

    A severance package of more than the basic notice also says two things
    to the employees:
    
    1) The company still cares about people (whilst trying to turn it's
    business round by reducing expenses.
    
    2) That employees who stay, can work on, safe in the knowledge that
    they will be treated caringly in future events.
    
    JK

    re: .63  and voluntary severance ...
    
    In my previous reply, I didn't mean to imply that the "two weeks
    notice" should replace a severance package.  What I meant to say
    is that any employee is free to "volunteer" for severance, all
    they have to do is write a letter of resignation, and give it to
    the company two weeks (or four, depending on the job) notice.
    
    Voluntary severance implies (to me) that a person is in a job that
    is considered necessary, but is asking to be "severed" anyway.  So
    DEC ends up paying extra *and* having a necessary job unfilled.  If
    a person is in an unnecessary job, then I quess it doesn't hurt to
    bring the situation to management's attention, but I don't think that
    there should be a formal program to do this.
    
    If you're just looking to DEC to bribe to go look for a new job
    because you're tired of working here, I think that is reprehensible.
    We need to reduce headcount, but this is to eliminate *unnecessary*
    jobs, not just anyone for any reason.
    
    Geoff Unland
    

Re .21 (Dimitri):
    
      >- And one year there was a terrible infestion of spiders in mill.
      >  Purchasing actually cut a P.O. for 50,000 praying mantises
      >  which eat spiders.  At the last minute it was decided that 
      >  the mantises might cause more alarm than the spiders.

Well, when I was working on 6B-2 one summer, there were _plenty_ of preying 
mantises around; do you suppose somebody else came up with the idea, or do
you suppose that some subset of the purchase order (maybe a sample?) got
through anyway?
    
    >My last note

Sorry to read that.  Good luck, old friend.
    
Re .51 (Tom):
   
    >So how many noters over 50 are still left?

Even with all the cutbacks, I'll bet there are more than 50 noters left. :-D

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Apparently there are MANY noters over 50 left.  LiveWire says only 3100
    of the eligible 7,000 people took SERP.  
    
    Sure would be nice to know what the company is going to do next. Some
    people like to plan their lives, and in this situation, there is only
    so much advance planning you can do.
    
    KB
    

I suspect that the powers that be don't know what they're going to do next.

    
    Note 1904.67              Voluntary severance package?                 
    67 of 68
    MIMS::BAINE_K                                         9 lines  
    2-JUN-1992 09:23
                                 -< Lots of 50+ left >-
    
        Apparently there are MANY noters over 50 left.  LiveWire says only
    3100
        of the eligible 7,000 people took SERP.
    
    
    Small nit:  Actually, I think the number was 3700.  More than 50% and
    apparently more than expected.

    
>        Apparently there are MANY noters over 50 left.  LiveWire says only
>    3100
>        of the eligible 7,000 people took SERP.
  

	So, how do you correlate the number of people in the US who are over
	50 and did not take SERP, with the number of noters over 50?

	Heather (UK)

    
    The number of eligible that I heard was about 7200.  The official
    announcement says that 3700 took it so about 3500 remain.  The
    headcount estimate after SERP is about 112000 so about 3% of
    Digital's remaining employees are over 50.  It ain't all that
    much and we probably the need the benefit of their years of experience
    and maturity now more than ever.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

As far as the SERP was vconcerned, you had to meet one of two elegibility
requirements.

You either had to be over 50 or have had 20 years servivce with the cvompany.

So, if you joined Digital at, say, 22, you could reture at 42, as I understand 
it.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Steve, I'm  pretty sure you have to be 55 to retire from Digital, no
    matter how much service time, so the only people eligible had to be
    50 or more ..... there's a lot of us 49 year olds who are praying for
    SERP II....oh please... 

    oh yeah.....55 and at least 10 years service....

There were two conditions, one of them had to be met.  Either you had to be
50 years old or older with five years of service or 60 years or older with 1
year of service.

Pierce

        Re: .71

>    The
>    headcount estimate after SERP is about 112000 so about 3% of
>    Digital's remaining employees are over 50.

        The 112000 is a worldwide number.  The 3500 50+ year old people
        are U.S. employees of Digital.  The 3% figure is a meaningless
        lower bound.

        The conditions mentioned in .75 agree with what I have heard,
        but they omit the limitation of being a U.S. employee.

        					B.J.

    Digital has been doing conventional layoffs in other countries in the
    meantime...
    q
    

    
>    The number of eligible that I heard was about 7200.  The official
>    announcement says that 3700 took it so about 3500 remain.  The
>    headcount estimate after SERP is about 112000 so about 3% of
>    Digital's remaining employees are over 50. 

	Steve, you have mixed up the world-wide employee numbers with the US 
	over 50's number.
    
	the 7,200 is the US employees over 50

	the 112000 is the worldwide Digital employees


	Heather

    The 7200 number is those employees who are 50 or over from January to
    May.  There are many who will be 50 from June to December.
    
    

    
    Re: .76 and .78
    
    Yes, I mistakenly mixed apples and oranges.  Flog me.
    
    Steve
    

Re .79:

> ... There are many who will be 50 from June to December.

And then what will they be? :-)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    51

re: .81

42?

    re: .83
    
    What is 6 * 9 ?
    

	6 * 9 = 42 (base 13)

    
>    What is 6 * 9 ?
    
I'll get my VAX onto that answer right now....

    Eligible SERPs had to be 50 (by May 30) with 5 or more years of
    service, or 60 (by May 30) with 1 or more years of service.
    
    There are many employees over 50 who were not SERP-eligible, so the
    estimated figure of 3% of employees_over_50_who_are_still_here is too
    low. 
    
    Bruce (who_is_over_50_SERP_eligible_and_is_STILL_HERE) 

    
    Re: .87
    
    > so the estimated figure of 3% of employees over 50 who are still
    > here is too low.
    
    That's a worthwhile observation.  The important point IMO, however,
    is that relative to the total size of the company it still represents
    a small number of persons whose maturity and many years of work
    experience, Digital or otherwise, are particularly valuable to Digital
    at this point in its history.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
     

    
    
    I always wondering what average age of our V.P group in maturing
    company like DEC. Anyone want to take a guess ?
    
    I guess it take 10-20 yrs to promote to V.P in fortune 500 company,
    thus by the time arrives, it may be good to be SERPed and take
    lumpsum severance payment. Humm, 20 yrs service plus V.P base salary
    to calculate seems pretty good deal to me.
    
    Did we still get V.P like Jim Manzi, or Jobs, or Joy, or M/S chairman
    at young age ? (Gees, couldn't get my brain remembering anything)
    FWIW, I think it's hard to find any young V.P in DEC at all.
    
    Michael..
    

    Yup, replace all of the departed VP's with people in their mid 30's
    (pick me), add some real product evangelists (Maybe we can get Guy
    Kawasaki), and stop the indecision about employment.
    
    q
    

    .89:
    
    There was a VP in his 40's here in Marlboro (Don McInnis).  I say "was"
    because some months back he went to work for Jack Shields...
    
    Dick

    re: 91
    
    Karen:
    
    I approached my boss ( I'm in the field too - AET DCC) and flat out
    asked him about the rumors. At a recent staff meeting he told us that
    he asked our VP, Malcom Jones and Malcom said that his information is
    that there will be two packages in July. One WILL BE a volunatry
    package and one will be involuntary.  I don't know the details, but
    just that piece of information is important to me!
    
    Anyone else heard anything?
    
    Wayne

    RE: .93
    
    Heard the same thing (one voluntary and one involuntary).  From what we
    are hearing, it will be for about 15% to 20% of our groups population.

    	The rumor I heard said they were shooting for a total reduction of
    25,000 people starting in Q1 (but I didn't hear when it would end, if
    ever). Sounds like we're anticipating a really strong Q4, eh?

>Sounds like we're anticipating a really strong Q4, eh?

Strong as a skunk.

    And, of course, soon the recession will be over, and both the people
    left in Digital (Mr Smith and Mr Olsen will be wondering where they can
    hire soom good people from...)
    
    q
    

You're wrong! The recession will never end and Mr. Smith will layoff Mr. Olsen.

    re: .98
    
    The recession will end IF and WHEN Perot becomes Pres.  (Snuck into
    wrong conference, I know.  Sorry)
    
    No current Digital management appears to be able to lead the company 
    back to good times UNLESS there is a 'BOOMING' economy world-wide.  I 
    am afraid weak management is the legacy of good economic times.
    
    
    Don

    re -1
    
    > The recession will end IF and WHEN Perot becomes Pres. ....
    
    I didn't know the DEC BOD was considering anyone for the pres slot.  I
    thought they would keep KO for a while.  Oh well, guess it's me who has
    it all wrong.... 8^o

    There is a key point in .99. Which basically states, that current
    Digital Management is not able to lead us back to a healthy state,
    unless the world economy goes back into a "Boom".
    
    Digital Senior Management, is very typically expert in good times, but
    not in bad. The excuses being made around the "Economy" are a crock. We
    are such a significantly large corporate entity, that we can a) roll with
    the punches, and b) have an impact on the economy. 
    
    Other Computer companies in "our league" are not taking the same
    fatalistic attitude that DEC is, and they are succeeding inspite of the
    recession.
    
    When the world switches to "commodity" computer buying, then it will be
    the "added vaoue" that makes a difference. At the moment, we seem to
    think that our "added value" is a liability not an asset...
    
    q
     

    
    The economy excuse IS a crock. The figures have been going up, and
    things have been consistently getting better for the past three
    months. It you don't believe, it look at the figures.

    Blaming our losses on the economy is management's way of saying that 
    they've done nothing stupid.  This would hold water if our competitors
    were also suffering similar losses.
    
    Steve

re: 1904.100             Voluntary severance package?                100 of 100
>    re -2
>    
>> The recession will end IF and WHEN Perot becomes Pres. ....

Interesting thought. One needs to keep aware, however, that their
are two open ends to a recession. Down and (up).

Depression and Anxieties ....

Has Ross Perot accepted the BOD's invitation, or are they still haggling ?

Bob


;^)   ;^)  ;^)

(tree ot2be enuff)

    
    re: .99
    
    The recession is ending now. Take a look at the figures. Industrial
    production just rose again for the 4th month in a row. Other figures
    are doing likewise.
    
    As far as Perot goes, even if he wins the popular vote, he won't win
    in the electoral college. The only thing you will lose if Perot
    becomes President is your rights.
    
    /prc

Presidential politics has nothing to do with the topic of dicussion.

Thanks,

Bob - Co-moderator DIGITAL

    Does anyone have any information about the TFSO this time around?
    Is the 26th the "day of the boot"? Is it still v-3 or a new version?
    Any news?? 
    Jas

    I use to be secretary for 3 remote field service offices. Now
    I am secretary for only 1 office.  Does that sound like I may
    be heading for the door?  (18 engineers down to 5 engineers)
    One manager transferred to a new job and the other took SERP
    package.  So I really don't have a manager either!!!
    
    What do you think?
    

    I've heard that secretaries aren't "targeted" for TFSOs.  I don't know
    how true that is.  The secretaries that I've known that would have been
    affected were able to be relocated to other secretarial jobs.  I don't
    want to give you a false sense of security though.  I would like to
    think if your job went away you'd be given time to look for something
    else.  From what I've been reading and hearing though, it sounds like
    if your job goes away....so does the employee.   
    
    Renee

    It's back!  Again!

    
    This is NOT new information about a new package.  It's an old
    announcement from 1991 that accidentally got posted into LIVEWIRE.
    Don't forward it around.
    

            <<< HUMANE::HUMANE$DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 1919.0       Don't believe the LIVE WIRE "downsizing" memo       No replies
DR::BLINN "Who are the Brain Police?"                22 lines   2-JUN-1992 16:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        There is a "memo" circulating that purports to be from LiveWire
        and describes a round of "involuntary layoffs".  A copy of the
        headers and first paragraph is included here for your reference. 
        DO NOT CIRCULATE THIS MEMO.  IT IS A HOAX.
        
        Although this "memo" was originally posted on LiveWire in January
        of 1991, IT IS NOT A CURRENT POLICY OR PLAN.
        
        If you receive a copy of this via MAIL or otherwise, don't panic.
        
        Tom
        
                Worldwide News                      LIVE WIRE

                      New phase of U.S. downsizing announced

  Increasingly intense competitive pressure within the computer industry -- 
  business practices, technological advances and manufacturing efficiencies -- 
  are placing added pressures on the company's cost structure, in spite of 
  ongoing cost reduction efforts that focused on increased productivity and 
  efficiency and two voluntary downsizing programs.

    I got the memo in .110 and about 10 minutes later got the message
    saying it was a hoax.  Pretty funny.....NOT.  However, I haven't seen
    it in LIVEWIRE.  I just looked again and I can't find it in there.
    
    Marie

    That same message was sent to all of the employees in our group by our
    management folks! 15 minutes later came the "retraction". This was a
    few weeks back. Things have been pretty quiet since then.
    

    What official word on TFSO??  There is none!!  Except in the Trade
    Rags.