Conference 7.286::digital

Who he?

    He's the new head honcho in Sales.  Looks like sales can't keep anyone
    these days!
    
    -anonymous
    

    He's the one who said "ORACLE is our friend, so let's not bash ORACLE."
    
    Good luck, Bob.  
    
    
    :-)
    
    
    Bill

The memo referenced in .0 is posted in note 112.2 in
GERBIL::US_SALES_SERVICE

    Bob Hughes is about the only VP I know of (except for Bob Supnik) who
    actually writes notes. Bob Hughes wrote several notes in the
    US_SALES_SERVICE conference and gave the distinct impression that he
    actually cared about what was going on in his organization. I think it
    is a shame he is leaving.
    
    Dave

I agree wholeheartedly with .-1. As someone in Sales Support, I'm sorry to see 
Bob Hughes go.

Regards,

Jim

    On the question of VP's writing in notes, do you think it is not done
    because if a VP says something , it is much more heavy weight than us
    average people, and so they must be very carfull what they say out
    to the world.

    i mean if i write something not 100% correct (not that i do that) no 
    one will care, but if a VP makes a small slip in a statment in a NOTES file,
    major consequesnces might result.

    plus, one would hate to disagre with a noter only to find later that the
    noter was a VP or some big manager like that !
    
    i think big managers should have their own notes files, and we have
    ours, it is best like this.
    
    right?

    /nasser

>    On the question of VP's writing in notes, do you think it is not done
>    because if a VP says something , it is much more heavy weight than us
>    average people, and so they must be very carfull what they say out
>    to the world.

A VP (contrary to the beliefs of some of the noters here) are human beings too.
I respect a VP who will say what he wants in a open forum like a conference with
out having to go through 2 spin doctors and 3 laywers.  In fact, the higher up
you are the more important it is to discuss what your vision and plans are with
those below you such that they are not dragged into the future.

And if the people down below don't agree with what you are doing, don't ignore
them.  Instead try to convince them you are correct and listen to them while
they try to convince you that they are correct.  It's not a one way street.

>    i mean if i write something not 100% correct (not that i do that) no 
>    one will care, but if a VP makes a small slip in a statment in a NOTES file,
>    major consequesnces might result.

Why?  I never consider someone's position when they write a note (in most cases
I'm not aware of it).  I consider their words and thoughts instead.  Notes are
informal dicussions.  I consider a note as binding as a lunch table conversation
-- not very.  If you want something binding, then you go through the established
procedures.

>    plus, one would hate to disagre with a noter only to find later that the
>    noter was a VP or some big manager like that !

Why?  I purposely "flamed" Bob Supnik in a confernce.  I'm no worse off for it.
Any VP who considers himself superior/above the those in positions below him
has a serious problem.

>    i think big managers should have their own notes files, and we have
>    ours, it is best like this.

The one of the great things about notes (or USENET) is that it is a great
leveler.  You typically nothing know about the writer expect for this mail
address and what he writes.  And that is what you evaluate when you
try to form your impressions of the noter.  In electronic media, the power
of the word is supreme.  
   
>    right?

Wrong

    
    In my opinion the notes is one of the best ways to communicate with
    different persons from all over the world and from all over the
    organization levels.
    
    I'm very surprised that so few managers take part to these kind of
    conversations.
    
    I'm so upotistic that I believe also they have opinions of things. aAt
    least I hope it.

>    plus, one would hate to disagre with a noter only to find later that the
>    noter was a VP or some big manager like that !

	I believe that in general people become VPs and big managers only
	if they are able to accept input from a lot of people. If your 
	arguement is solid and your points well made I would expect that 
	VPs would respect that. If you don't have enough confidence in your
	opinion to state it in front of a VP you should probably keep it to
	yourself anyway.

	Besides, just because these people don't write notes doesn't mean
	they don't read them. So if you disagree with a VPs policy or plans
	in Notes you can't assume that they don't see it just because you
	don't see them writing replies.

			Alfred

    there is some confusion here.

    i dont think i said VP's and big managers should not take input from the
    troops, i just dont think an open form like a notes file is the place for 
    it. 
    
    it has nothing to do with confidence or courage or other amazing
    attributes of the human species, it has to do with order and organized
    ways of doing things in a large company like DEC.

    that is the end of my speech.

    thank you very much,
    /Nasser

    Hmmm.  I sometimes think VAXnotes is one of the more orderly places
    in Digital.		:-)

I truely believe that one of the easiest and fastest ways to help get DIgital 
back on tyrack is to open more communication between all of us and our 
leadership. The fact that Don Zereski, Bob Hughes and other high-level 
managers participated in the US_SALES_SERVICE notes onference only made me 
want to voice my opinion more. And I certainly looked forward to their 
comments. Unfortunately, there has been little management participation of 
late.

I wish everyone from the Executive Committee on down spent some (even small 
amount) of their time participating in notes files such as this. We need to 
know they are listening.

Regards,

Jim

    I think that computer/notes illiteracy has something to do with it. 
    
    
    Mark

    
    Re: .14, .15
    
    I couldn't agree with it anymore. Notes illiteracy is major issues.
    Knowing how to use WP is one thing, they can always have secretary
    to help. However, by communicating in Notes is another way to 
    stretch to DEC community or even customer, field.
    
    Think this way, if Steve Jocob, and Bill Joy, or Bill Gates is noting
    or Emailing via usernet worldwide with their WINDOW/NextStep/OpenView
    GUI, and our senior rank is still meeting with pencil/paper.
    Then , I would say we have problems here.
    
    Did our executive attend any productivity tools courses ? Or they just
    know MBA money making matter ?
    
    Using right tools for your work will double your productivity for
    both individual and management level.
    
    Michael...

    
      Don't kid yourself...Lots of managers find their ways into the notes 
    files..Unfortunately those that do are casual observers who wish not
    want not to make waves in their careers caused by a slip-up in typing
    or not well versed on the topics being discussed.
    
      Dano

    As one that has had the opportunity to work closely with Bob over 
    the last 8 years in a variety of positions, I am very sorry to see him
    leave. Bob tended to try to teach as much as he lead, knowing he could
    direct his people to do anything he wanted, but unless they changed
    their own vision and bought into the changes they'd never make them
    work. If anything he waited too long for some people to change, but he
    never stopped trying.
    
    I'll miss Bob, and I believe so will Digital...!
    
    Fred
    

    Hi,
    Another Ohio University(i.e.; Harvard on the Hocking) has left......
    ......Another one, ME, will be SERPing soon!
    
    There is no doubt which one was the more successful or held more stock!
    
    Tom

    Is Bob Hughs a OSU grad?  Is he from Ohio.  I went to school with a
    Bob Hughes back in Ohio in  the early 50's.
    
    Bob

    Ohio University and Ohio State University are not the same.  OSU
    is in Columbus and OU is in the town of Athens.

	Mike

    In an earlier life I used to do nuclear power systems.  Has anybody
    calculated the half life of a US Sales VP at DEC?
    
    

    I know, I spent time at both and have brothers that graduated from
    both.  I guess I am so old I forget these thing, I guess I'll just
    retire.
    
    I still want to know where Bob Hughes is from.
    
    bob

    re: -1
    
    Well Bob,  
    
    Why not give him a call and ask him ... You probably do know him.  You
    know everyone else around here.
    
    Boy I miss working with RDG.
    
    Chuck
    
    PS.  Your mind is not gone, just on an extended vacation.

    
    Besides, we OU grads aren't Buckeyes, we're Bobcats.
    
    	Dave

>         <<< Note 1890.17 by BTOVT::REDDING_DAN "Vermont PowderPig" >>>
>             -< Oh they're out there reading these words alright >-
>
>    
>      Don't kid yourself...Lots of managers find their ways into the notes 
>    files..Unfortunately those that do are casual observers who wish not
>    want not to make waves in their careers caused by a slip-up in typing
>    or not well versed on the topics being discussed.
>    
>      Dano

    Hogwash, pure hogwash!!
    
    Some of us are far more than "casual observers".
    
    Not every manager worries about making typos.
    
    Not every manager is paranoid about "making waves" in careers.
    
    Unless/until you offer some elaboration as to what constitutes "well
    versed", your condemnation of ALL managers is a tad off the mark.
    
    Some of us can even construct a better sentence than you did.
    
    
    Sigh......
    
    Dave

    RE: -1
    
    Yeah, but the truth is, most managers do not note, in any form,
    read-only or otherwise. Most of them "Don't have the time". Personally,
    for me, the time spent noting is invaluable, and I couldn't afford not
    to do it. But then, I'm not a manager.....
    
    Laurie.

	The other half can't figure out how to turn on their terminal...


						Mike
						----

    Sounds like extremely poor terminal design.  

    
    Generalization about how "managers do not attend to notesfiles"
    irritates me..many of *us* software managers use notesfiles on a daily
    basis to communicate with sales and marketing worldwide - it is perhaps
    the easiest method to get info from the West Coast to Paris, for
    example, and the data is permanent and available to all, unlike email
    which is transitory by nature.
    
    Some notes files are project-oriented, some are technology-oriented and
    some are industry-product-oriented. Those are useful for business
    needs. There are other notes files for personal (life style) matters
    and are used (read & write) as well. And some notes files end up being
    soapboxes (named SOAPBOX or otherwise) for personal opinion, company
    bashing, etc. The file we are in right now seems going full-bore on the
    latter path. Maybe that is why "managers" don't "reply".
    
    

    For all you non-sales people, I bet you can get this one right. Why do
    you think the top sales position at DEC is a revolving door?

    re .30 on Notes devolving into SOAPBOX:
    
    I agree with you.  I think the level of discourse and intellectual
    content of many NOTES files is roughly on a par with AM talk radio
    shows.  Quite frankly, a lot of time is wasted by a lot of people in a
    lot of NOTES files.  I am as guilty as the next noter, but I have
    always hoped that higher level managemnet at DEC might have something
    better to do with their time than read all 800 replies to such topics
    as Gay Awareness Day at MRO.
    
    Larry

re: .20,

>    Is Bob Hughs a OSU grad?  Is he from Ohio.  I went to school with a
>    Bob Hughes back in Ohio in  the early 50's.
    
	Hey!  So did I!  Oh wait, I guess I went to Iowa, not Ohio.
    I always get those two mixed up.  ;^)

				   -davo

    
    .26  Well Dave, there are exceptions to most rules.  Glad to see/hear 
    some"one" in management responding!  Thanks for assertively stating 
    your opinion.  
    
    Dan

    re:34
    
    Since we are not asked for our titles when we participate in notes, I
    think you would be suprised how many managers DO participate in the
    notesfile community.  We need to break down walls between functions and
    positions in this corporation, not build them up.

    
    .34 C_Boutcher
    
      Words of wisdom...You must have read between the lines! 
    Unfortunately more don't exemplify those views...We have an
    awful long, long way to ge yet. 
    
    Dan

    This is not a Bob Hughes question. Rather a request for clarification
    regarding a very solid rumor that U.S. sales, in FY93, will be on base
    plus commission.  This is not only interesting but frightening since
    even today the sales organization can't get an accurate reporting of
    sales/certs for the past quarter let alone the past month. 
    And, the infrastructure isn't in place to support a commission-style
    field organization in which sales only sells and the rest of the team
    supports the customer and after-sale efforts fully.
    If anyone can shed light on this passing rumor it would certainly be
    appreciated.                                       

    I would like to hope that if the commission rumor is true that the
    pressure from sales to "get it right once and for all" because  my
    family doesn't eat otherwise will force some real change very
    quickly!!

    re. commissions
    
    I worked 16 yrs with Sperry (before merger) on base + commission and
    made great money at times.  I have now worked 6 yrs with DEC on base
    only. It's a different world.  A lot of the SR's I see will not be able
    to feed a family if we go to a commission system.
    
    
    Ken

    Re. .39
    
    Then let's go to a commission system now! 
    
    Gene

    A commission system, will not solve anything. One of our main problems
    in the Sales space is the fact that we count sales effort in 14
    different ways, effort can get cross posted to account teams, and
    decimate the rep's credits. Tie that in with the fact that we have such
    a large and complex product set, that few sales reps can sell without
    the aid of Sales Support, and suddenly it becomes unclear as to who
    really did the sale, and who gets the extra money.
    
    Also, look at the age old problem, that kicked our feet out from under
    us in the workstation market. sales people are/were graded on revenue.
    The senior sales management saw less risk in going for ten $500,000 VAX
    6000 sales, than one thousand $5,000 workstations sales. 
    
    Of course, much of it is in the hands of the sales rep. I know of one
    rep, who could write $25,000,000 worth of orders a year, and hardly
    even leave his office. He was TSFO-1'd (only 4 months before he was
    eligible to retire, I might add.)
    
    
    While on the subject of commissions... An anecdote. My father recently
    retired as the CEO of a multi billion dollar corporation. At one point
    in the past, Digital was bidding on some of their requirements. (KL10's
    as I recall). Specific requirements finally convinced the DEC Sales
    Rep, that DEC could not handle the bid. DEC withdrew their bid,
    explaining why. The response from the customer was one of extreme
    confidence in that DEC was extremely honest, even if it hurt them. Part
    of this stemmed from the fact, that the sales rep was looking further
    out than the bonus he might get. (The company later went on to buy
    dozens of DEC machines...)
    
    q
    

The previous note is exactly right in stating that the role of Sales and 
Sales Support overlap quite a bit at times. In fact, there are situations 
where I as a Sales Support Consultant, fulfill most, if not all, of the Sales 
role. And there are situations where technically knowledgeable Sales Reps do 
it all, including the Sales Support piece.

I haven't been in the Sales organization that long (2.5 years) and I have no
Sales experience outside of Digital. I have been encouraged by my management
to move into a Sales Rep position. The dilemma I have is the following:

	- I'm currently a Sales Support Consultant II, but would move over to
	  Sales as a Sales Rep. My manager would prefer a Rep 1 or 2, which
	  are 2 or 3 levels below where I am now. Obviously, if I move to a
	  Sales Rep position, I can forget about any decent salary increase
	  for a few years as I'll be pretty far into the Sales Rep salary range.

	- Outside of the potential for SP2 money (up to $20K above your 
	  current salary if you really over-achieve), the perks between Sales 
	  and Sales Support are identical.

	- Although my PPP currently has cert and revenue goals, I consider my
	  primary measurement to be Customer and Sales Rep satisfaction. I am
	  not under the same kind of cert/revenue pressure as the Sales Reps.

	- Although I consider myself an excellent Sales Support person and I 
	  think I could be an excellent Sales Rep, I consider there to be a 
	  fair amount of risk in making this potential career move.

	- The lack of potential compensation to match the risk I feel I would 
	  be taking is a concern. For example, if I took the same job at a 
	  one of a number of competitors, I could potentially make well into
	  six figures.

So, after putting much thought into this and talking to a number of people, I 
have come to the realization that a Digital Sales Rep has one of the most 
thankless jobs in the world. There's pressure (especially these days), a 
dismal internal admin system, inconsistent support from other groups within 
the corporation, and, in many cases, a setup for failure.

I'd like to hear from other people who have been faced with this same question 
and what your perspective was/is and what decision you made. Thanks for 
listening.

Regards,

Jim

    Jim,
    
    I think you need to find a new Sales Manager to work for. Consultant II
    to Sales rep 1 or 2, based on what? The fact that you have not been in
    "direct" sales s code job. Big deal!
    
    I am a Consultant I and I would not consider any sale position below
    Sales Rep 3 or Sales Exec. My SRI is a 39 just like a sales exec, my
    PPP has a $10.5M nut on it much higher that most sales execs carry. I
    have been in this sales support job for five years and dare say know a
    lot more about sales then some sales people.
    
    The problem lies in the manager not you.
    
    Frank

    
    Re .42: What's "SP2 money"?
    

   <<< Note 1890.44 by WLDBIL::KILGORE "...57 channels, and nothin' on..." >>>

    
    Re .42: What's "SP2 money"?
    

"Sales Performance 2", or some such, wherein a sales rep earns $120 for each
percentage point over 100% of budget at the end of the year.  Max is $20,000.
This is intended to compensate over-achievers, who would theoretically earn
big bucks with a commission plan.

There's also SCA (Sales Consistancy Award) to reward reps who are on budget
month to month and quarter to quarter. Max is $2400 for the year.  This gives
reps incentive to work all year, as opposed to just bringing in the big order
in Q4.

Bob 

    re: .43
    
    I think you need a reality check there, good buddy.
    
    As a PSSM I "carry" a $26M number.  Not even in my wildest Ray Miland
    Lost Weekend deleriums do I believe that the responsibility I have is
    equivalent to a sales exec or one of my sales manager peers.  Believing
    that Cons 1 makes you qualified for Rep 3 or Exec 1 would be cause for
    mild amusement in the sales management circles I travel.
    
    Be intellectually honest with yourself and maybe you might agree that
    although you're in the same disco, you aren't playing the John Travolta
    part.
    
    re: .42
    
    Digital is not unlike other employers in that it expects you to 
    prove yourself on your dime, not theirs.  It is difficult to make a
    career change once you've reached the maturity level of a consultant. 
    There is more to it, however, than the 20K in SP2 money.  The salary
    ranges for Sales Exec extend well into the 6 digits and it was Bob
    Hughes (remember him?) intention to make the ranges for Sales reps
    extend to a few thousand dollars short of a VP as a way of keeping
    talented individual contributors in the Field.
    
    I think it becomes a question of short term sacrifice for long term
    gain.  I've coached a few people who've entertained the same idea and
    they've all found that once you gain the confidence needed to entertain
    such a move, life has intruded with all sorts of messy circumstances
    like mortgages and children that make the decision much more difficult.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Al
    
    
    

Re: last few

When I interviewed for my current Sales Support position, it was clear that 
Sales Managers were looking for something very special from Sales and Sales 
Support candidates. To this day, after being in Sales Support for 2.5 years, 
I'm not sure what it is. I work very closely with mostly Sales Execs and I 
know I can excel at what they do. I frequently have to fill in for them and at 
other times even provide some direction for them (beyond the technical aspects 
of selling). My boss obviously has confidence in me, but because of past 
experiences with bringing people into Sales at their current level and then 
having them perform poorly, he has developed a philosophy of being more
cautious. I respect that, and I'm not looking to move laterally, but a 2-3 
level drop is not acceptable to me, even though the salary ranges are higher.

It seems that you can be the most awesome Sales Support Consultant on 
the face of the earth, but if you want to move to Sales, you are one notch 
above a novice.

Regards,

Jim

Jim


With your obvious skills, you should move ahead quickly in the sales ranks.  
While I've found sales management to be as "political" as most, and maybe
more so than others, they do take care of their "own".  So, if you trust the 
people you'd be working for, and if you can get a career advancement plan IN
WRITING, specifing what you'd need to do to get promoted, it could be in your
long term interest to move to sales.  

Bob

    I'm a SS Consultant I and consider SR III and Sales Execs to be my
    peers.  Having a somewhat low BS tolerance, however, I have never
    seriously entertained thoughts of moving to Sales' ranks, though I've
    been asked.  Twice.
    
    karl

    Re. 46
    Flame ON HIGH 
    
    You are right my friend as a PSSM I would not put you on the same level
    as a Sales Rep 3 or a Sales Exec, you have little day to day selling in
    your job, I know I was managed by one of your peers for years and he
    never saw customers.
    
    Before you go off telling people what they are or are not I suggest you
    spend six months with the average Support Person. Go on calls, watch
    them work, maybe in your world all they do is consult but in my world
    we prospect, quailify, question, close and sometime bring in the
    orders. By the way in all that we also consult. My own boss would tell
    you that we sales support people are "sales" people. My goal sheet
    reads just like a sales persons, only my number is the sum of five
    reps.
    
    Go out and smell the real world. My friend in .48 seems to agree with
    me, I wonder why?
    
    FLAME OFF
    
    Next time get your facts in order.
    
    Frank

    re: .50

    First of all, I was at least attempting to be polite and lighthearted
    with you.  I'm not sure what to make of the insulting, uninformed and
    discourteous bile in .50 except to suggest, respectfully, that you
    take some time and Get A Grip. Or at least offer a token insincere 
    apology.

    Second, if you really believe that your PPP confers all the same
    responsibility and accountability as the sales reps whose bookings you
    shadow (shadow bookings: an ominous clue), I would suggest a small 
    experiment.  Take that PPP and try to use it to negotiate a salary 
    commensurate with your 'peers'. I'll wager dollars for donuts that you 
    will find in very short order how extraordinarily thin that veneer
    of "we're all sales people" is.  Some sales people, as George Orwell 
    would have observed, are more equal than others.

    And that is not necessarily bad, as long as some intelligence and
    consistency goes into the goaling and reward process - not a given that
    I'd want to bet my career on.  The sales organization chased that sales
    support bus for many years.  Now that they've caught it, they're still
    trying to figure out what to do with it.  I'm fortunate enough to work
    for an enlightened AGM who, overall, has figured out how to integrate
    the two.  It isn't perfect by a long shot, but it works.

    Sales and sales support are one team.  We share the same goal: results,
    measured in terms of units, revenue, margin, CERTS or some combination
    thereof.   Does that mean we have identical jobs?  Certainly not.  We
    have different roles to play.  Sales reps own the business strategy. 
    They own the forecast.  They are responsible for the _business_
    qualification.  They are the ones ultimately held accountable for 
    closing business.  Sales support owns the technical solution of the 
    customers business problem.  We own the responsibility for product,
    application and industry knowledge.  We are responsible for the 
    _technical_ qualification.

    In an enlightened organization, sales support gets to participate in
    the business qualification and strategy aspects of a sales cycle. 
    However,  participate does not equate to ultimate responsibility.  "But", 
    I hear you say, "I have a goal sheet which looks just like a sales rep and 
    it says I'm responsible for 80 scadzillion dollars in CERTS!"  And I
    contend that once you look beyond the superficial facade and focus on
    the actions of those who invent and propagate things like PPP's a
    different picture emerges.  How many sales reps get fired for
    underperforming budget?  How many sales support?  Who gets the scathing
    phone calls from a rabid AGM in week 13 of the quarter when a
    forecasted piece of business slips into the next quarter?  How many
    sales support people get SIDB reports?  Who does the AVP call when he
    (there are no more she's...) wants to know how that important
    opportunity is going?   I can go on and on, but show me some real
    evidence that Joe Average Sales Support Rep _really_ does the same job 
    and is held as accountable for business as Jane Average Sales Rep.
    
    Some random observations: 

      a) The sales organization doesn't know any way of measuring people
         without involving a number.  That's good because it promotes
         objectivity and bad because it encourages sloppy management.

      b) All of us need to connect our daily activities with a desired
         result.  It's good for sales support to have a daily reminder of
         what the people who pay our salaries want the end result of our
         labors to be.

      c) Sales support is not held to the same standard as sales reps. 
         Many of the trappings are there, but nobody I know makes career
         threatening/enhancing decisions on the basis of a single metric
         alone.  Evaluating technical people is a shade more subjective.
    
    So anyway, if you don't do the same job (and if you did, who's doing
    the sales support?), on what basis are you equal to a sales exec?
    
    Al
    

    A lot of people who have been sales support individual contributors
    and managers would have become sales people and sales managers a long
    time ago if the compensation difference could make up for the sales
    grief factor.

    Sales support people after a few years clock hundreds of hours with
    sales people and know what the score is.

    Sales support people with even a little more experience even know that
    differences among the sales/sales support situations in the companies
    that Digital competes with.

    I'm reminded of the joke where a person is offered some fantastic job
    and he answers "And give up show business?".

    Lots of sales support people who would make better sales people are not
    going to give up the less stressful, computer-rich work environment
    they have now to be sales people without a substantial personal financial
    incentive.

    Of course, there are sales support people who would make terrible sales
    people but that's a risk that they themselves and the company will
    share.

    The opportunity represented by an aggressive commission plan and the
    potential to double one's salary will drive many sales support people
    including managers into sales.  Sales support is harboring many good
    sales people.

    The age old sales vs sales support arguement rears it's ugly head once
    again. I am reminded of a saying I heard many moons ago:
    
       "Someone elses job always looks easier than it really is".
    
    Gene.

re: .52 by Pat Sweeney

Precisely where I'm at on this.

To all: I told my AGM today that, even though I think I could be a good Sales 
Person, becoming a Sales person is far far down the list of things I want to 
be when I grow up. I told him that being motivated and challenged in my job 
are important. The word that comes to m,ind when I think of Sales Rep is 
'frustrated'. I also told him that I know I could contribute more to the 
entire account team as a Sales Support person. He accepted my decision with 
enthusiasm and agreed with my thinking.

Regards,

Jim

p.s.: Now, if I could make double my current salary by making the move, it 
      just might be a bit more motivating!

>    I think you need a reality check there, good buddy.
>    equivalent to a sales exec or one of my sales manager peers.
    
>      Believing that Cons 1 makes you qualified for Rep 3 or Exec 1 would be cause for
>   mild amusement in the sales management circles I travel.
    
>    Be intellectually honest with yourself and maybe you might agree that
>    although you're in the same disco, you aren't playing the John Travolta
>    part.
    
   With comments like these you ask me for an apology? What do you think
    makes some quailified to be a Sales Exec? Some degree of sales
    experience? Well I submit that the model for a "Technical Sales Exec"
    is a good sales support person and not a used car sales person with 10
    years of selling experience.
    
    Like my collegegue in -1 I would not trade places witha sales rep, I am
    having too much fun in my present job. It has nothing to do with my
    belief or lack thereof in my skills to be a sales rep or exec.
    
    If the sales manager circles you run it think this is a joke, it shows
    how little they realize that the business of selling in the computer
    industry is changing. Only strong technical sales people will survive
    in the computer sales positions of the future. By this I mean only good
    strong sales skills with exceptional technical skills will lead to
    closing business. Our industry is moving beyond lunches and golf dates
    to can you explain how you will solve my business problems.
    
    By way of an apology - I did say the flame was on HIGH in my first
    reply.
    
    Frank

   > Well I submit that the model for a "Technical Sales Exec"
   > is a good sales support person and not a used car sales person with 10
   > years of selling experience.
    
    I'm in sales.  Been selling computer systems and software for over 12
    years.  (HP & DEC)  I submit that you are wrong.  Well, if
    you remove "used car" and replace it with "computer systems and
    software", you are wrong. (IMO)
    
    Don't get "me" wrong, I happen to think that sales is a happless job,
    second only to sales support :)  But still, selling is a profession and
    the selling skills one aquires through practice and experience are 
    invaluable. These skills are not "learned" at the sales exec level, they 
    are expertly implemented....or should be :) 
    
    >If the sales manager circles you run it think this is a joke, it shows
    >how little they realize that the business of selling in the computer
    >industry is changing. Only strong technical sales people will survive
    >in the computer sales positions of the future. By this I mean only good
    >strong sales skills with exceptional technical skills will lead to
    >closing business. Our industry is moving beyond lunches and golf dates
    >to can you explain how you will solve my business problems.
    
    Oh boy.  I'd not want that attitude on my sales team!!  Sounds real
    nice, but I want the sales exec selling, not discussing the
    details of technical solutions with technical implementers at the
    account.  A sales exect manages technical resource for that....a sales
    exec is building and maintaining executive relationships at the higest
    levels of the account; building partnerships between Digital and the
    customer....selling....

    Speaking of Sales Execs and Hughes resignation ....

    I remember hearing a little story about IBM in that no person has ever
    sat in the IBM chair of Vice President of Sales .. who had not carried
    a briefcase and a price book as an IBM sales rep.

    I wonder how many of our Vice Presidents of Sales have been prior
    Digital Sales reps?  I wonder if it really makes any difference?

    I've been in direct sales for 15 years.  All of it for Digital.  All of
    it pounding the pavement and nose-to-nose selling.  If I do say so myself
    ... I've been pretty darned successful at it. I think that I can "identify"
     with the sales reps at Digital.

    Any reason why I shouldn't write Ken and say (in somewhat more
    professional language):  Hey, Ken, why not take the longest term sales
    rep at Digital and put him up there right next to the VP of Sales,
    and, let him have some "input" on some of these issues.  I've "been
    there".

    No, I don't want the job of VP of Sales ... but ... I damned sure think
    that I could help!

    Jerry

    Re:.-1 (Sales V.P.'s with sales experience)
    E.G. Chick Shue carried a bag for years.  I'm sure there are others.
    
    Re: Sales Reps on Commission
    
    What makes us so special that our sales reps wouldn't do at least as
    well on commission as every other computer vendors' on Earth?  My
    response: not a thing.  I say, put them on commission.  Sink or swim.
    Politically, it already works like that, so why not make it
    compensationally consistent?
    
    Re: Consultants vs Sales Execs (Hi Frank!!)
    
    My first sales support job started in 1981, and I had about eight years
    of it in toto.  In fact, I worked in the same office as Frank, with
    many of the same customers, including the one we hired Frank from.  In my
    experience, I have to agree with Pat Sweeney.  I dunno, I must be
    getting old: I'm finding myself agreeing with Pat all the time these
    days ;-) (just kidding, Pat).  A Consultant I would be damn lucky to
    get a job as a Sr. Sales Rep.  Why?  Same numbers system, you might
    say, but definitely NOT the same level of responsibility, nor the same
    degree of pressure and stress, nor requisite skills set.  Sorry, Frank,
    but I have to disagree with you on this point.  I've been there, right
    in the next cubicle at times. ;-)
    
    tim

    The debate between technical and relationship selling can never be won. 
    Let's understand that the two kinds of strategies are approaching
    different kinds of customers differently.  (That's called Customer
    Service).
    
    Relationship selling is aimed at customers where macro level decisions
    that set the tone for an entire purchasing organization drive the
    business.  With this kind of customer, the decision maker is not the
    person who knows about or is responsible for the technical aspect of
    the system, its equipment and services.
    
    Technical selling is aimed at customers where the decision maker is
    knowledgable and/or responsible for the technical performance of the
    equipment or service purchased.  
    
    When Digital started out with flip-chips, our customers were
    engineer-designers who had carte-blanche to pick the vendor who could
    make their designs a reality.  Technical selling was the norm.
    
    The next phase was when we started making actual computers from these
    "modular systems".  We became the OEM supplier of choice by a
    combination of technical and relationship selling.  Often the technical
    contribution was made by the product design engineer, not formally
    trained in sales.  
    
    Today, we sell commodities and complete systems and a variety of
    services.  The Fortune 1000 portion of industry has become
    "bureaucratized", just like we have.  In addition, many customers don't
    want to know anything about the technology.  They want us to provide a
    black-box solution that they don't have to worry about.  Relationship
    selling is the only kind of selling they will tolerate.
    
    We still sell to technical customers and we must sell to non-technical
    customers.  If the debate were won by either side, we would lose market
    share.  Now, I don't think any of us wants that!
    
    Peace,
    
    Dick

    re: -1
    
    I think it's way beyond a debate over one or the other.  To succeed at
    _end-user_ sales today (the model most of our direct sales force uses),
    you need to be outstanding at both.  Sales (business relationship) and
    support (technical relationship) need to work together.  In my
    experience, rarely do opportunities hinge on one or the other
    exclusively.
    
    The point I made and won't belabor is that there is no rational reason
    to believe that being a very senior sales support rep automatically
    qualifies one to be a very senior sales rep.  Put another way, very few
    people would assert that a Sales Exec 1 could perform the job of a
    Software Consultant 1.  Why should anyone believe the opposite is true?
    They are different jobs and require different skills.  I don't doubt
    some people can do both (in fact, I know some who can), but I would submit 
    that they are the exception and not the norm.
    
    Al
    

Well, in my experience I have seen Senior Sales Support people doing 
everything a Senior Sales person does... and doing it well. I have seen fewer
cases of a Senior Sales Person doing everything that a Senior Sales Support
person does. Obviously, this isn't true across the board. Everyone is 
different and bring slightly different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

Since I arrived in the field I have seen an attitude among Sales management in
that you have to be some sort of 'special' person to be a Sales Rep, even at 
an entry level. If you expect to be anything more than a Sales Rep 1, you have 
to have some key undefined traits, solid sales experience of some kind,
physical appearance that fits some undocumented standard, and the ability to
forecast revenue months in advance for which you may do everything humanly
possible to bring in, but virtually have no control over. In my mind, one word
describes what you have to be if you want to be a senior sales person: CRAZY! 

Regards,

Jim (happy to help generate millions of dollars of revenue, but not interested 
     in any more stress and pressure, thank you)

Copyright � 1993 Dow Jones & Co. from Dow Jones News Service
Data Genl Names Bob Hughes V.P.-Worldwide Sales & Service


  WESTBORO, MASS. -DJ- Data General Corp. (DGN) named Robert C. Hughes as vice 
president, worldwide sales and service, a new post, effective today.

  Hughes was most recently chief operating officer of Bachman Information 
Systems. He will report to president and chief executive officer Ronald L. 
Skates.

  (END) DOW JONES NEWS 04-01-93

   9:25 AM
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