Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Why does it take 18 months to order a workstation? 
    
    if you guys have access to computers , may be you can consider sending 
    your future order via e-mail directly to the workstations order department,
    that got to be faster than using US mail, which is , i assume , what you 
    used to send your order for the 3100 , and is the reason for the long delay 
    in processing your order.
    
    I cant guess why else your order would take such a long time to process, 
    you are not suggesting that DEC somehow is actually slow, are you? 
    
    /nasser

    All ordering by electronic mail will prove is that electrons travel
    slower than the Pony Express.

    
    
    	Look at the bright side.
    
    	The 3100s were in such high demand by revenue generating customers
    	that your order was put on  the back burner indefinitely.
    
    	If you order a 9000 you may have it on your dock next week ;^)
    
    
    						Mike
    						----

    
>    	If you order a 9000 you may have it on your dock next week ;^)
    


Do they do 9000 Workstations yet ?

:-)

    There appear to be some DECstation 3100 and 5000 workstations
    available from DIAL (VTX DIAL).

    
    	Working in the plant that manufactures them, I can tell
    you that there has been no issue here preventing a more than ample
    supply to anyone who wanted them. There were periods of weeks
    when none were built because there was no demand.
    
    	/john

	>> Do they do 9000 Workstations yet ?

	Yes, but you gotta have a BIG desk...

	MM

    RE: the previous reply.  Perhaps you can use the 9000 *as* the desk
    
    Carl :^)
    

.8>>> Perhaps you can use the 9000 *as* the desk

Yea, but you'd need a big chair :-)

    
    i dont beleive you guys, making fun of 9000 ??? dont you forget that
    9000 won best machine award a year or two ago? it is a great machine,
    looks like marketing did not work well for it. that is all.
    
    so stop this funny talk right NOW !
    
    thank you very much,
    /naser

	Re: .0

	What a B&M job. You're upset that you are getting **MAXINE's**
	instead of **3100's**? Geeez. IFF you REALLY want a 3100 on your
	desk, give me a call and I'll arange the transfer. I know some
	people in my group that would **LOVE** to swap out with you.

SH>>	We actually managed to have workstations on order
SH>>	throughout the entire lifecycle of a piece of
SH>>	equipment -- without actually getting any !

	Sorry, that's BS, plain and simple. Your order has NOT been at 
	IEG for 18 months. Get your facts straight before blowing off.

	jr, who knows the **FACTS** behind the order

    Pretzel Logic 101:
    
    If you could do without them for this long,
    why did you think you needed them in the 
    first place?
    In future stop wasting the Company's money
    and stop ordering things you dont need. 8^)
    
    Pretzel Logic 102:
    
    The $8Mill PC integration tender.
    We requested 1 4000VLC loan machine for customer 
    evaluation against opposing systems.
    Response from upon high was - "I approve the above
    loan request, the machine will be available to you in 3 
    months" - Get real.  
    
    Pretzel Logic 103:
    
    US - "The evaluation is next week"
    Person in high chair - "Just tell the customer to wait"
    US - "HA HA"
    
    Pretzel Logic 104:
    
    The 8550 we used to run our branch. It got sold
    and we were to replace it with a 4000-60. It was 
    approved right up to Subsidiary manager. A clerk in
    the the dispatch area refused to allow the release of
    the system because customer orders HAVE to be filled
    first. Her manager agreed. We had to go up a separate
    chain until someone could say YES. Failure to replace
    this system would have impacted customer satisfaction
    far more.
    
    Pretzel Logic 105:
    
    A modem costs us about $350 by special deal. Even @ say $30 per 
    hour someone has to work from home for about 12 hours to
    before the company breaks even. I'd probably do this in 
    a week. But buying modems are a big NO-NO here. Some business
    genius has decided that they are too costly. 
    I'd use my own PC (EPP refurbished - I couldnt afford a new one)
    terminal emulation software...my friend
    from Microsoft has a room with COMPANY PROVIDED - Macintosh,
    Laserwriter, 486PC, epson printer, laptop. Oh, we do very similar
    jobs and I dont have a PC on my work desk yet.
    
    
    Pretzel Logic 106:
    
    I cant buy a $340 modem. I can, however, get a $1120 modem on
    a Low Value Order (LVO), since it doesnt need higher approval.
    Oh, nearly forgot, its the same modem.
    
    
    Regards,
    John

    RE: .10
    
    Naser, my comment was meant purely in jest.  Please do not take
    offense.  None was intended.  
    
    I am a bit puzzled why you would demand that we stop jesting.  It 
    seemed innocent enough.  
    
    I have not read this conference for almost three years and never posted
    a note here.  I enter one thing that seemed to be clearly meant in
    jest and someone gets mad.  
    
    I guess it will be another three years until I read this conference.
    
    Carl :^(
    

'Tain't nothin' new:

I have a MicroVAX II/GPX system that I use as my workstation.  I've had
it a couple of years.  Here's how I got it:

Working in CSSE, my manager at the time believed that his employees should have
the same facilities as the other employees working on a project.  SInce they
were getting UVAXIIs, we ordered some.  The rest of the project got theirs.

Our orders kept getting pushed out and pushed out.

Getting frustrated, my manager decided to order "something cheaper" and ordered
us VAXStation 2000s.  After waiting several months, a very senior manager,
whose name I won't mention but whose initial is "Z", cancelled ALL CSSE orders
for that fiscal year.  Well, back to the 'ol VT100.

The, one day, the facilities guy walks into my cube and says, "Bob, your
workstations are her.  Who gets them?"

I'm flabberghasted and walk to the loading dock to find three
brand-spanking-new MicroVAX II/GPX systems.

It seems that the order was in the pipe for Sooooooo long that, when the bigwig
cancelled the orders for that fiscal year, he missed our original workstation
order.  It had been on hold so long that it did not qualify for the "cancel
everything this year" edict!

And that, finally told, is the story of BOBW::

BobW

    ref .13
    
    >I am a bit puzzled why you would demand that we stop jesting.  It 
    >seemed innocent enough.  
    
    Because I cant demand anything at home, and I certainly cant demand
    anything at work, so this notes files is the only place i can so any 
    kind of demanding.
    that is why. 
    
    plus iam a very seriuos person, and i want to be a big manager one
    day. 
    
    now let go back and listen to the other callers complain about their
    worstations.
    
    take care , you'r Ok, dont worry about it.
    byu,
    /nasser

    Nasser doesn't realise that his sense of humour is neither shared by
    all or politically correct.
    
    :-)
    
    The 9000 - a marketing concept that arrived so late and expensive that
    few customers had the $$ or a glasshouse for it!
    
    /andy

    Now being the proud possessor of a second hand VAXstation 2000 equipped
    with a TK50 and an elderly VT200 I think I'll pass on the 9000 and wait
    for a desktop version of the Alpha chip.

    Jamie.

�         <<< Note 1784.13 by CSC32::C_REESE "VMS?? Who makes that?" >>>
    
    Carl,

	Apply this acronym to any further notes posted by Nasser:

			PNATTMBTC



	It means, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
    
	--Mike

    
     Iam not a PC?? how could you say that? that is really terrible,
    you dont know me, i have been a PC most of my live, and iam proud
    of it too.
    
    now i still have to figure the curtain thing, because i dont see
    any curtains around here. this must be a wise crack or the the author
    had his tongue inside his cheek when he say it.
    
    buy,
    /nasser
    
    

>             <<< Note 1784.11 by FATHOM::rogers "pretzel logic" >>>
>                         -<  - Wrong, wrong, wrong - >-
>
>	Re: .0
>>
>	What a B&M job. You're upset that you are getting **MAXINE's**
>	instead of **3100's**? Geeez. IFF you REALLY want a 3100 on your
>	desk, give me a call and I'll arange the transfer. I know some
>	people in my group that would **LOVE** to swap out with you.

	Now...you don't think we'll actually GET any 5000s, do you ?

	After the incredible delay on the 3100s ?  Come on!

>	Sorry, that's BS, plain and simple. Your order has NOT been at 
>	IEG for 18 months. Get your facts straight before blowing off.
>
>	jr, who knows the **FACTS** behind the order

	Yep, you're right.  My beef was not with IEG.  It is with
	a system that allows budget to be allocated, justifications
	approved and plans to be made for equipment, only to have
	a bean-counter or other faceless, useless bureaucrat
	to bring the whole thing to a screeching halt.

	This after a VICE PRESIDENT personally signed the order
	last fall and assured us that we'd "have the equipment in
	a week."

	Basically, one "Homer Pirkle" with thick glasses and 
	a green eyeshade can stop delivery of equipment that 
	has been approved (probably) by Ken Olsen.

	As to the remark about not needing the equipment, you try
	the following:

	Supporting:

	Ultrix versions 3.1, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.2a
	for VAX and RISC.

	VMS and VMS/Ultrix Connection
	VMS and Fusion
	VMS and Wollongong WIN/TCP
	VMS and Ultrix SoftPC

	Mactintosh TCP/IP connectivity
	IBM PC TCP/IP connectivity

	OSF1

	VMS and POSIX
	VMS and Ultrix DECmcc
	VMS and Ultrix DECnet Phase IV and Phase V

	without a good number of workstations and system to run them
	on.   VT100s don't cut it. Period.

	Steve H

    I understood Nassar's sense of humor. A little dry, but a real hoot
    (that's Southern for funny). I also understood the dry humor behind the
    VAX 9000 remarks. Hey, lighten up out there! 
    
                                                         

    The problem that I had with Nassar's sense of humor is that it was
    obscured by the possibility of English being used as a second language,
    so that what I thought might be humor might instead be some difficulty
    in using English, which it is not PC to respond to in kind.  I am not
    the only person who had this difficulty.
    
    i tink i read his notes nilly willy.

    RE: .14
    
    >> A modem costs us about $350 by special deal.
    
    What's wrong with this picture????  Internal transfer cost for a 
    modem is $350??  You can buy one from Computer Shopper for less
    that $100!  I think I remember seeing one (1200/2400 bps) for $69 
    last time I looked.
    
    Dave

�    <<< Note 1784.22 by SSDEVO::EGGERS "Anybody can fly with an engine." >>>
�    The problem that I had with Nassar's sense of humor is that it was
�    obscured by the possibility of English being used as a second language,

	True.  And he does a disservice to those who really are struggling
	with English as a second language.  I think his constant attempts
	at humor, which only confuse most readers, are not always appropriate 
	to the tone of the conference.

	--Mike

    
    What do you mean the "possibility" of being used as a second language.
    
    	:-)

    I have known a number of folks who I am certain have not become noters
    because they felt awkward even though they would have been Americans
    writing in English.  I felt that way once when I started.  Isn't one of
    the important things about noting that one should not be inhibited by
    however you TRY to express yourself?  I, too, do not want to hold
    correct language against anyone.  Therefore I do not necessarily think
    he is doing a disservice to anyone.  The first "nassar" I read shook me
    a little but then I decided he was doing it on purpose and then it was
    ok by me.  Just my opinion.  DEC noting is great in any (almost any)
    flavor!
    
    Fred

    
    ok guys, you cut it off right NOW ! ,please.
    i speak good English too, English was not my first language when i was
    born , ok, but now i used most of the times, and i think in English too.
    
    actually i have been thinking in English for more than 15 years now.
    i have no problems with it. and iam used to it, i get confused if
    i try to think not in English.
    
    so, can you stop analysing my English please, and talk about the matter
    on the hand ?
    
    thank you very much,
    /naser

    Naser,
    
    I believe your English is probably quite good, if so it is your typing
    skill/care that could use some improvement. Like capitalizing the
    pronoun 'I' and the first letter of the first word of a sentence and
    watching the tense of your verbs.  
    re:-.1 <"but now i used most of the times,">
    
    I can spell almost as good as most, but if I am not VERY careful, my
    typing drags me down.
    
    Fred
    the-one-who-often-must-use-the-dictionary-for-his-one-and-only-language
    

    -.1 should refer to -.2      typed toooo slow again!
    

Re:   <<< Note 1784.32 by COASTL::DARROW "The wind is music to my ears" >>>

>                         -< crossed up in the network >-
>
>    -.1 should refer to -.2      typed toooo slow again!
    
Try using absolute addressing instead of relative when referring to previous 
replies.  It's rarely wrong...  :-)

-  David

	For those of you that do not know (and it's not readily apparent),
	Steve and I work in the same district. Steve's in CXO3 and I'm in
	ALF1.

	Now on to the debate at hand....

	
SH>>	Now...you don't think we'll actually GET any 5000s, do you ?
SH>>	After the incredible delay on the 3100s ?  Come on!


	The one difference between the 3100's and the MAXINE's is that the 
	order is *really* in IEG's system and you can look it up iff you 
	know the DEC number. Before "Z" signed the order it was sitting on 
	someone's desk and that person was not located in any CSC building 
	although he does report to "Z". If it wasn't for another member of 
	your group, there is no question that the order would still be tied 
	up in bureaucracy.

	We will get the workstations, the MAXINE's for the lab in ALF HAVE
	shipped. Yours were scheduled to ship 2/28, but slipped due to
	some odd problem.

	It's a bummer working under your circumstances (no or ancient hardware),
	but it will be fixed.


	jr

	Joe,

	No offense intended, but these have been "just around
	the corner", "shipping next month", "approved and
	ready to ship" and so on forever.

	I really don't think we'll see more than the
	occasional junker off of DIAL.  

	Management seems to think workstations/hardware 
	are "nice to have", not "need to have."

	But, then again, they don't take calls, do they ?

	Cynically yours,

	Steve H

    Re:  .22 and .30
    
    I guess I just lost my sense of humor.  I don't know whether you are
    kidding or serious in your comments on Naser's English.  Many of us, 
    who learned English as our native language, still have difficulty with:
    
    	o  Expressing thoughts clearly
    	o  Correct use of grammar
    	o  Typing/keyboard accuracy
    
    Examples abound in the daily communications within our organization
    (including the notes files and the memos that fly across the wires). 
    Therefore, I find the undertone of your linguistic superiority as a native
    English speaker misplaced, and the need to translate Naser's note
    offensive - regardless of whether you agree or disagree with him.  We
    are, after all, a global company/community of many language origins.  In
    addition, there are many of us whose parents, grandparents, etc. did
    not speak English as a primary language - so maybe we shouldn't be so
    quick to throw stones.
    
                                              

    I agree with .36, particularly since nearly every note I've ever seen
    in which the author corrects the English of a fellow noter contains at
    least one mistake in the use of English.
    
    	Andrew.

    Re: last two
    
    I agree that .30 was offensive, or at least potentially so, and I have
    deleted it.  I posted .22 seriously:  I cannot figure out whether the
    notes discussed are intended seriously or not.

    Since when did Americans speak English ?
    -)
    

    What's a work station??

    
    
    re .40  > what's a workstation?
    
    I'm not sure.
    Though I do support them and the software that runs ON them, I have to
    ask the customer to describe what one looks like before I can fix it
    for him. 
    
    I get the feeling that the customer doesn't know either, cause when I ask
    him that, I get a long pause and then lots of hesitation in his
    voice...then he always asks "are you Ultrix Network Support?"
    (silly question....hummm). 
    I haven't figured out what might generate this question, but I know
    that shortly after that, he seems to always get called into a meeting and 
    tells me to wait for HIM to call ME back...
    strangest thing this networks support stuff...
    
    cat
    
     
    
    cat 

    ref .40
    
    a work station is like a stand alone computer with a big screen, 
    more big than a vt100 screen, had it own disk drive and ethernet
    plug to plug a ether net cable to to connect it to network. example
    is vaxstaion 3100 and decstation 5000.
    
    it is amazing you never seen one?  most engineers we use them to
    do our work at them, are you like just hired to DEC? 
    
    some companies like microsoft and borland probably use just pc's and have no
    workstations. workstation is more effective to use for work than is a 
    pc would be ,i think you like them more than a pc or a terminal once you 
    get used to them. it is not hard really. 
    good luck,
    byu,
    /nasser
    

    
    Gee Cat, I thought I was the only only one who supports workstations
    and doesn't have one. "It's on order" is kinda like "the checks in the
    mail". When I need to use one to support a customer, I have to go over
    to one my neighbors and say " Pretty please..can I, please can I?, I
    promise I won't break it or anything, can I???
    
    Neil
    

    Gee, a bus stops at a bus station and a train stops at a train station.
    Why would a manager wanna buy a work station?
    
    ;-) Rich

    
    well, i used to have a compaq 25 mhz 386 running OS/2 that was more
    of an effective workstation than any of the 3 vaxen in my office.
    
    We like to believe there's a difference between a PC and a
    "workstation" (ie:running unix or vms). There is, the PC tends to do
    the job a hell of a lot better for much less. What scares me is that
    the outside world has discovered this, but somehow most of Digital
    seems to have not.
    
    	bob

    re:-1
    
    Wanna trade a DS3100 or 2 for the 386-25 I have at home??
    /john

    
    would if i could.  But i should be so lucky as to see a 3100. But then
    again, other than read notes, i'm not what i'd use it for, other than
    writing digital software.

    re: What's a workstation?
    
    Dick, it's a little computer in your office that runs a terminal
    emulator several times more "casually", so that you can do most
    of what you used to do when you had a good old VT100.  :-)
    
    Chris

    Oh.......well I'm be horn-swaggled!!!  I thought all those engineers
    were just far-sighted and needed a bigger tube.  So tell me, why do
    all the secretaries have them too, and managers who want to play games?
    
    Actually, I have a Smith-Corona Personal Word Processor that keeps me
    confused enough as it is.  {:^)

    from .50:
    
    "Secretaries need workstation so they can have one screen for woman's
    notesfile, ..."
    
    ...
    
    "I know I wrote too much."
    
    True.