Conference 7.286::digital

	Some named accounts do have Notes conferences. Not all of them are
	announced in EASYNOTES.LIS however. No real reason that they should
	be either. It's up to the owners of the conference. It sounds like I
	good idea for groups that will use it. You can't force it on anyone
	though.

			Alfred

    We have had one set up for this named account (Corning Incorporated)
    for about the last 6-8 months.  It isn't public, although that really
    isn't a restriction -- anyone who has a bona fide need could get
    membership.
    
    Vitually no one uses it.  This includes all of the sales reps, the AGM,
    the Services Manager, not even the Sales Support manager.  The reason
    generally given is that no one knows how to use NOTES.  We've had at
    least two training sessions, and you guessed it, no one showed up!
    
    The real reason, of course, is that NOTES isn't a part of the culture
    for most people in this account.  And, as was mentioned in a previous
    note, you can't force it on anybody.
    
    Larry

    Ditto to Larry's .2...
    
    I was a software consultant before joining the Intel Account team as
    Account Manager for Semiconductor manufacturing (A SAM formerly).
    
    I took it as an action item to get the team involved with the already
    existing (but aged) Intel notes conference.  The only ones who made any
    effort to use it were sales support and delivery consultants and
    specialists, and 1 sales rep.  I even sat down with an INDIVIDUAL in an
    attempt to show how easy it was to scan and read notes. 
    
    All to no avail....There are still few entries, little usage, and I
    gave up after awhile...
    

Another ditto. We setup a Notes conference for the Xerox Account Group and 
although a few of the more computer literate team members did participate, we 
have a fairly distributed team and haven't been able to do any real training.

The success of such a conference basically boils down to two things:

	- Familiarity with notes

	- Making access to the conference a part of your daily routine

We haven't totally given up on Notes since we need an effective distributed
communication medium. For the moment, con-calls and electronic mail are the
things that work the best for our team. 

Regards,

Jim

    Notes is like a drug. There are those who are addicted, those who are
    allergic, and those who can make use of it sensibly. Unfortunately,
    there are few people who come into the third category where Notes is
    concerned.
    
    	Andrew.

    re .5   I had the same symptom (?)...
    
    When it became apparent to some of the team that I had the notes
    disease, I started clipping the Notes header information and passing
    along the meat....so no one *really* knew the source...
    
    Ok, now that I've had my fix, I can go visit a customer....
    
    Happy New Year...
    

    
    
    Another ditto for the non-use. We have a G.E. note that is not used
    very much, unfortunately.
    
    
                                             Phil...

Although some managers still consider Notes a waste of time, I'm proud to be 
part of an organization where management at the highest levels not only 
promote the use of Notes, but actually participate themselves. I'm in Sales 
Support and I'm referring to Neal Houtz and Bob Hughes among others. Check out 
the conference at GERBIL::US_SALES_SERVICE.

Regards,

Jim

Here is a brief description of a conferencing service which was
delivered recently for a major bid on the West Coast. 

We developed this service in recognition of the issues which have been
cited in this Topic:  in our experience, Notes rarely gets off the
ground on its own.  It's more likely to succeed when introduced as part
of a designed communications package, which pays attention to business
purposes, communications processes, team culture, and user support.

Please contact either of us for details of applying this service to your 
account, your program, or for your customer.

John Gundry & George Metes

			  Digital internal use only
    
                                WORKING BY WIRE
    
                     Global Team Integration and Response
                            Concurrent Development
                         Managing Distributed Programs
		     Through Tailored Computer Conferencing
    
    Between May and August 1991, Digital developed a proposal to Douglas 
    Aircraft Corporation of Long Beach California to be the Automation 
    Systems Integrator for the development of the MD-12 series of 
    commercial aircraft.
    
    People contributed to the proposal from a variety of organizations and 
    geographies across Digital.  Computer conferencing was used to 
    integrate the proposal activities.  VAX Notes conferences and 
    associated policies were set up to 
    
    *  	 enable communication between the ten skill teams contributing to 
    	 the proposal,
    *  	 allow concurrent development of a proposal in an extremely 
    	 compressed timeframe,
    *  	 coordinate an activity which was geographically distributed.
    
    The conferencing network reached 140 people across eleven U.S. states 
    and six countries.  The conferences were used to communicate within and 
    between skill teams, to disseminate program information, to coordinate 
    contacts with the customer, and to bring new team-members up to speed.  
    
    The account manager for the bid said that conferencing was "the single 
    largest aid to my job. ...  Notes was an incredible help; I don't think 
    we could have accomplished as much in the given timeframe, without 
    notes."
    
    One of the skill team leaders had never used conferencing before.  He 
    commented  "It was confusing and frustrating at first, but I got used 
    to it, then I liked it and finally I saw the power in it."  
    
    When the bid activity was finished, he set up conferencing for his 
    global account team.  He said  "The people on my account team love it.  
    Everyone wants to participate in it.  We are communicating worldwide 
    like crazy.  The team has gained a huge new advantage and now view 
    themselves as better global competitors."
    
    "Working by Wire" is a computer conferencing design and user support 
    service that enables concurrent working in distributed teams and 
    programs.  These services are provided within Digital or for customers.  
    For further information, please contact:
    
    George Metes, CALS-IPD, 		John Gundry, Enterprise Design Group, 
    FROSTY::METES,  DTN  264 2100   	RDGENG::GUNDRY,  DTN  774 6167
    Marlboro, MA.      			Newbury, UK.  

I've spent the last 5-6 years in Software then Sales Support trying to get teams
to use Notes for account management - with no success where sales reps were
concerned and with reasonable results with technical teams.

A hard look told me that there are two very different classes of people 
involved in general [with exceptions]:

1 - technical: written-word, tool-oriented

2- sales: verbal, telephone-oriented

Oil and water - and that's even before you get into the ego trip of having notes
that only you have and won't share because that's a form of power.

The fact remains that there are substantial numbers of people on account teams
who have only recently learned how to use lower-case when sending mail, and
their managers may not use any of the on-line services on Easynet at all, but
rely on administrative staff to read and transcribe dictation into Email. That
culture makes fully participative account team use of Notes impossible unless
the team has on it some of the rare exceptions.

The technical teams enjoyed a good deal of success in having several people
servicing accounts and pooling their notes and observations; it worked as we
had intended and wished for.

Back when I was idealistic I tried to force the discipline; previous replies
say what I found out on my own, the hard way - you can't force it.

Norm

Hmmm....

I didn't know that there were so many failed attempts.  I guess I just am 
blinded by the utility of the tool.  I live for CIM_SALES_SUPPORT.  You can get
three or four application recommendations in two days, get gossip/comment about
suppliers, read the news about new CMP/products, etc.etc.etc.

I remember, once, needing to know the part number for the connector on a DEC,
mouse. (It ain't standard.)  NOTES got me the name of the person to call, and
I had the answer in two days.  Remarkable!

thomas

    RE: .-1
    
>> I didn't know that there were so many failed attempts.  I guess I just am 
>> blinded by the utility of the tool. I live for CIM_SALES_SUPPORT. You can get
>> three or four application recommendations in two days, get gossip/comment
>> about suppliers, read the news about new CMP/products, etc.etc.etc.
    
    I don't think the argument is against the tool.  I also use it
    regularly to get my job done, in exactly the same ways you do, and
    probably wouldn't be able to function if it wasn't there.
    
    However, this is not universally true.  From the comments in this note
    there are a great many people who don't know how to use NOTES and have
    no intention of changing that.  Therefore, using NOTES as a
    communication media for an account team that is split into two camps
    (those that use it and those that don't) appears to fail -- in most
    cases.
    
    I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has used notes in
    this context AND been able to make it successful.
    
    What do they do differently?  

	RE .13
    
>>    	I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has used notes in
>>    	this context [an account team  ....split into two camps (those that use 
>>	[notes] those that don't) AND been able to make it successful].
>>    	What do they do differently?  

	My own experience is that many people are (to paraphrase you) in the
	"don't know Notes, won't learn" camp.  This is frustrating to behold
	when one is facing a situation (such as a widely-distributed 
	international team) where, being a Notes-literate person, one _knows_ 
	what a benefit the medium could be.  

	<flame-on>  AAARRRGGGGHH   <flame-off>  Thank you for listening



	However, see .10 ....

>>    	The conferencing network reached 140 people across eleven U.S. states 
>>    	and six countries.   ......   The account manager for the bid said 
>>	that conferencing was "the single largest aid to my job. ...  

>>	Please contact either of us for details of applying this [conferencing]
>>	service to your account, your program, or for your customer.

	_Somebody_ made it work!  And we heard about it through Notes!

	Jim


    

    While I certainly agree with the earlier notes (e.g., Norm Breitner's
    excellent .11) that point out the large individual differences in
    personal style that underlie our choices of work tools, I would also
    like to tout the importance of the User Interface (UI) issue.  
    
    Perhaps part of the difficulty in some folks' late learning of how to
    avoid the use of all-caps when using A1 (-: though I think that point
    was stretched a bit, 99.5% of the  folks I know in the field have long
    since reached that stage :-) stems from the poor UI offered by 24x80,
    command-driven, mouseless, terminal-oriented programs in general.  At
    this late date, all I should need to say is "personal computers &
    workstations do it better."
    
    Better, pc-oriented, graphic UIs make for happier, less intimidated,
    less training-hungry, more quickly productive Us.  Us who used to be
    keyboard-phobic, with phone-marks on their ears, are buying personal
    computers in increasing numbers.  Some enlightened few are even buying
    'em from DEC.
    
    To the DEC Field -- a suggestion for the future:  look into
    client-server implementations of VAXnotes.  There's one that runs over
    PATHWORKS for Macintosh comms paths, called "MaxNotes" from Alisa
    Systems, the same folks that sold us part of the SW basis for PATHWORKS
    for Macintosh.  Makes DECnet and/or AppleTalk/DECnet Gateway
    connections between Mac and a VAX NOTES server.  Mac users see exactly
    the same notes that you're seeing now, except that there's a native
    (i.e., Mac-flavored) UI that the Us use :-).  Local editing in Mac
    style, cut-and-paste between other Mac apps and the MaxNotes screen,
    but when it comes time to read or post a note or reply, the server is
    invoked.  Not a perfect app -- still in the low 1.0's -- but the wave
    of the future (and we can probably do better than LOTUS' "Notes"). 
    LOTS more fun and easier to learn and use than VAXnotes.  EXACT Same
    underlying server app.
    
    MaxNotes is in the DECdirect Catalog.
    
    Watch our PCSG for client-server implementations of VAXnotes for DOS
    and OS/2 users.  Those are either in Beta testing or just-now shipping,
    I don't recall.  I'm sure that a later note in this string will give
    full pointers.  :-)
    
    There are also, of course, Client-Server DECwindows implementations of
    VAXnotes for both VMS and ULTRIX users.  Plus there's the whole NEWS
    culture to be served.
    
    Client-server implementations of one-to-many comms utilities (like
    VAXnotes) are going to be a significant player in the "GroupWare" new
    software business category.  Imho it well behooves us, who wish to
    become more significant players in the new networked pc/workstation
    marketplace than we now are, to be EARLY ADOPTERS of GroupWare
    technology.
    
    You Heard It Umpteenth Here!  Need to hear it again??!!  :-)
    
                         

    Another crucially important factor in the adoption of ANY new comms
    medium is whether or not The Powers That Be are using it to Run The
    Business (or at least whether or not performance-goal-relevant
    information is placed on that medium).  I applaud Neal Houtz and Bob
    Hughes among others mentioned in .9 for fostering a more efficient mode
    of communication than other existing channels from Field Management to
    the Field.  
    
    May I coin a '90's version of MBWA (Management By Wandering Around) --
    MBNA?  Surely a small time-slice of the MBWA time of a busy Manager
    might be devoted to MBNA...?  It's certainly got to be time-efficient;
    but it'll be MORE so, the more Field desktops are actually "listening." 
    A bootstrap process; requires upfront investment in both Management
    time to participate, and in resources to upgrade the HW substrate on
    which an improved UI might be established.
    
    (And if you're skeptical because you HATE "Notes," consider how much
    you LOVE (your favorite EMail environment) and imagine how it would be
    if NOTES were easier and MORE FUN to use...?)
    
    I urge all concerned with or in the Field to upgrade the UIs used there
    by upgrading the HW available to the Field in general, such that a
    broader spectrum of personal style can be accomodated in the NOTES
    medium, among other media.  
    
    If we're considering upgrading printers in the Field such that demand
    publication of Sales Update articles is possible there, then by the
    same token, we should ALSO make improved UIs for the Field available by
    stepping up the availability of pcs and workstations there.  This would
    have the immediate salutary effect of increasing the availability of
    Client-Server VAXnotes, plus it would add to the computer-literacy of
    the field, another obvious motherhood goal.

re Note 1710.13 by USRCV1::SOJDAL:

>     Therefore, using NOTES as a
>     communication media for an account team that is split into two camps
>     (those that use it and those that don't) appears to fail -- in most
>     cases.
  
        Several years ago, Johnathan Grudin wrote an interesting
        paper on "Why Groupware Applications Fail" (title, from
        memory, may be inaccurate).

        The "groupware" applications he observed tended to have a
        common trait of requiring everybody in the group to use the
        same tool and work the same way for that part of their work
        mediated by the tool.  He observed that this was often a
        fatal characteristic, concluding that it is unrealistic to
        expect everybody in a group to make major adaptations in the
        way they work or their choice of basic tools (such as
        editors) for the sake of "groupware".

        VAX Notes is a great groupware tool, and it does come in at
        least three different user interfaces (DECwindows, Character
        Cell, and ALL-IN-1 Conferencing).  More interfaces are on the
        way.  This will solve some of the problem, but it still
        requires that one be facile at typed communication rather
        than face-to-face (or phone-to-phone) conversation.  Perhaps
        an integration of VAX Notes with voice input and output would
        help to reach a larger audience.

        Bob

    The Unilever team has been using NOTES for some time now.  The
    conference, LARVAE::UNILEVER is dedicated to the team, which consists
    of 145 people working in 15 Time Zones.  Most team members are
    read-only participants.
    
    I was initially shocked at the lack of NOTES familiarity in the field. 
    It soon became apparent that little or no training is available in many
    countries and so we produced an easy user guide for the team.  Possibly
    the greatest value of the conference is continuity.  Whenever a team
    member moves on to another role, his/her successor is able to get up to
    date quickly on a very complex Account.
    
    THe conference is just one of the communications tools we use, regular
    mail updates, phone calls, meetings and even a video have been
    essential to provide one, common face to the customer.
     
    Mark

  
  I'm often surprised when the reason for not using Notes and other utilities
  is that "little or no training is available".  Why do some people seem to
  insist on a training course before they try something ?  It is somewhat
  understandable if the person is expected to provide support to paying
  customers on the product (although, in practice, training is not seen as
  a prerequisite to doing so) but when the person is an end-user and must
  be in possession of a minimal level of competence/intelligence/drive (or
  they shouldn't be employed by this company) why should "training" be a
  stumbling block ? The only commands that you need in this case are NOTES
  and HELP.
  
  (Now if they were to say that they didn't have enough time to wait for
  the net links then that I can believe ... :-)
  
  Frank

    Sadly, the HELP function is pretty useless.
    
    Mark

Why are we designing tools that require training?

Martin.

    ... a far more pithy version of the subtext in my earlier notes .15/.16, 
    and -- if I may give my view of Bob Fleischer's note -- his .17 also.
    
    Dan

I'm not really sure what the problem with NOTES and non-users is, because it
certainly can't be formal training.

Whenever I have new-starters in my direct working group, and sometimes outside
of that, I spend about � an hour giving a quick run through/demo of those tools 
that they will require in their job.   NOTES takes up about 7 minutes of this
time.  

I explain how to get in and out of NOTES where to look for conferences, how to
add them.  How to open/read then how to write/reply and the differences etc.
I then explain how to use the HELP in notes.    This � hour chat has proved
more than sufficient to get them kick-started in using NOTES/MAIL/ALL-IN-1/DCL
etc.


I can only think that the reluctance is psychological - along the same lines
as the fear of non-computer users have of touching a VDU keyboard (it might
explode!).


I feel that if more of this type of introduction to the tools we use was 
carried out by the collegues of new-starters, the less resistance to those 
tools that are useful, and in some cases essential, to efficiency in one's
job, would be allowed to build up.  There is not one employee in this company
who is not in someway part of a team of people. If it is in your power to
assist someone else in doing their job efficiently, thus potentially making
your own job easier....surely it is a sensible thing to actually do ?

    When you first open your notebook there is only one conference in it,
    the sample one that is provided on most nodes running notes.

    Should you bother to open this conference you will find that it
    contains a quick beginners course on how to use notes.

    As to the HELP function in notes I have found that it contains
    information on every aspect of noting.

    Jamie.

>    When you first open your notebook 

Those people who never/refuse/are reluctant to use notes, haven't usually
even got that far...

    We are in a transition (and have been through the last 15 years) from a
    computer illiterate company to a company whose employees use what it
    sells.  When I started in the Aguadilla plant, no employee used any of
    the computers we had as support in his job.  Only MIS employees had
    accounts and they were prohibited by the MIS manager from using the
    computers to prepare documentation or memos.  I was the _ONLY_ manager
    who had ever used a computer, including the MIS manager (not me).
    
    Over the years we tried to change that culture, to the point that we
    now demand that all employees use either VaxMail or A1, that all
    policies and procedures are in VTX, that all employees use at least
    these and probably some other computer tools.  But we want them all to
    be self taught through Help or Computer-Based-Instruction.  
    
    When I taught in universities, about 10% of the student body was so
    motivated at to be ready for self paced instruction.  And we want 100%
    of Digital employees to fit this mold?  We aren't realistic.  Some
    number of people will always require hand-holding for anything they
    should learn.  Some number of people will always require a harness to
    hold them back from spending all their time learning and none working.
    
    Let's get real!  There is no single best way of doing anything! 
    
    fwiw,
    
    Dick

	Re .23  CURRNT::ALFORD 

>>I can only think that the reluctance is psychological - along the same lines
>>as the fear of non-computer users have of touching a VDU keyboard (it might
>>explode!).

	I think you are right. 

	VAXnotes may be poorly-documented with a third-class user 
	interface.  But that problem is insignificant compared to the 
	fact that e-conferencing is a completely new and different 
	form of communication.  Some of us can handle it, some not.  



	Increasing use of this powerful medium will happen, in my 
	opinion, only after addressing the human part of the system, 
	not the product itself.

	Jim

    Re .23 
    
    To clarify my earlier note I would consider the 1/2 hour overview (or 7
    minutes) as training.  Sadly we do not seem to have people around that
    will provide this in the many offices our team is located in.
    

Re: .28

Just as idea...

Why don't you send out a "cry" for help....you never know...there maybe someone
out there who is willing to hold a brief seminar type thing, or even a few
one-to-ones in the offices you have a problem with...

You could start with this conference, name the sites... :-)

    Nice idea but typing in the names of c.60 sales offices in 32 countries
    is not my idea of fun.  The problem is common in the field and I think
    we'll keep to the manuals that we send out to teams.  The hit rate has
    is pretty effective.  Judging by the earlier notes the problem is
    common and activity in the Account conference is good.

This is tied into my belief that many people are TYPING illiterates.  That is,
they don't know how to type at a keyboard and in some cases they don't want
to type.  Historically, typing was a menial task involving transcription of
dictation and copying of handwritten messages.  Thus, they shy away from
anything on-line (at least as far as it involves keyboards).  This is a
very real effect.

If NOTING and EMAIL did not involve typing but people could simply talk
into their telephone, would that change the picture?  I think so.  It
would broaden the "market".  Of course, there are still those who do
not like the telephone.  And so on.

This is also tied into the emotional issues raised by people who print
all their EMAIL and read the paper rather than reading it off the screen.
But enough of that.  After all, it is Friday.

I think that many of the analogies in this note are very good.  For example,
good public speakers have an unfair advantage when it comes to politics.
Good readers have an unfair advantage when it comes to knowledge.  Good
typists have an unfair advantage when it comes to coding.  And so on.

But is the advantage people get from these skills really "unfair"?
I think not.  But that is one aspect of the question being debated.

-steve-

re: -1,

    	This sounds like a good enhancement to our VAXNotes product.
    A little like voicemail, except a way to file the mail in a visual
    format similar to the way notes are stored.  I have heard of products
    similar to this already on the market, but I'm not sure what we have
    at the present moment.

    	Of course, this still doesn't address the very basic issue which
    turns some people off from this medium, and that is the notion of
    giving away information for free (ala note #1024).  There are some
    people around who are quite technically adept, but who won't write
    notes simply because they don't want to give away their knowledge
    (since to them, knowledge = power = income = livihood).  No amount
    of training is going to force these people to note.  However, an
    "Info-Market" type of software system which would allow people to
    recieve some sort of financial credit (cost center cross-charges,
    etc.) for their ideas entered and "purchased" in notes might get
    them to participate.

    				   -davo

I am confused as to why digital does not teach some of our tools as part
of new hire training?????  I mean if it was not for another specialist
(now gone) who taught me about NOTES, and VTX and other parts of our
E-net, I don't know where I would be now. (Probably with my wife) :-)

- Mike

    The policy is that *all* new sales reps go thru a kinda "boot camp"
    that lasts several months (i.e., CSST). It's geared primarily at
    product orientation and, when I went thru, I recall little time was
    spent on "tools" other than the quoting system. I personally spent some
    time showing several classmates things such as notes, VTX, etc. and
    there was genuine interest. I think the general climate then was that
    these were Sales Support vs Sales tools.

    CSST is NOT new hire training.  It is new Digital SALESrep training.
    Notes and mail are usually reviewed sometime in the course(s).
    

    Training is not really the problem, although it needs to be in place.
    For some people, only an hour is necessary. For others, they need to
    start from the ground up (learn to type).
    
    The real problem that needs to be addressed is that there must be a
    line item in the job requirements that VAXnotes, mail and other
    information systems appropriate to the project *are used*, and that
    people will be judged on the basis of their contribution to those
    media.
    
    An airline reservations agent has no problem using a computer, and
    those things have arcane user interfaces. It's a part of the job.
    
    I've worked in many companies over the years, and I am astonished at
    the lack of discipline in Digital. For example, if you go into a sales
    office, ask an account manager for the account documentation. You will
    be frightened at the lack of a customer file, which should
    contain every letter sent and received, documented decisions made about the
    account, record of the technical information sent to each individual,
    SALES VISIT REPORTS (ha! what a joke!) and other vital information that
    any other company would regard as essential.
    
    This lack of discipline, and a customer history, is propagated
    throughout the company.
    
    If you go into an engineering department in Japan, for example, you
    will find say 30 people sitting in rows. They don't have their own
    filing cabinets, except for their work in progress on and in their
    desks. Why?
    
    Because what they produce is nearly all *public record* for the entire
    office. There is usually a bank of filing cabinets, which they all
    share and maintain. Every document has the producer's seal and date,
    and modification record.
    
    If a manager or anybody else wants to find information, say, on the
    reason for a design decision, or the address or phone number of a
    supplier, it's easily found without going to the person responsible.
    
    They are, in efect, efficient.
    
    Now, a VAXnotes medium would provide a fine office filing cabinet for
    each group in Digital.
    
    But the discipline needs to be there first, and it needs to be
    inculcated by our management.
    
    Who are even worse about discipline.
    
    Ray

    The problem� with Digital is that it agressively automated at time when
    the company was far, far, smaller and could manage islands of
    automation with telephones and teletypes.  Since the sales rep did not
    have any account management responsibilities, it fell to service
    managers, "admin contacts",  manufactring reps, and even engineers to
    present their face to the customer.
    
    The integration of information was accomplished by the customer as he
    needed it, and frankly, DEC didn't need to track this stuff.
    
    As a far larger company with a far different customer environment, we
    need an entirely new customer information system, as Ray just
    described.  But far more than the system, we need a whole new attitude
    towards information integration that is counter-cultural to Digital.
    
    In fact, the most common attitude towards integrated information
    systems that could be realistically used for tracking customer activity
    comprehensively is CYNICISM.  And this from a company that would have
    Ray sell the same thing  to one of the largest manufacturing concerns
    in the wrold, and would have Pat sell the same thing to one of the
    largest banks in the world.

    When, pray tell, it Digital ever aggressively automate?

    
    	It's been almost 10 years since i worked in DEC IS, but
    historically, much of the turf issues concerning intergating pieces
    was driven by the need for quick turn around (a fast changing business)
    and the inability of IS's to handle that turn around, leading to
    "distributed" systems.  10 years ago, that usually meant a large
    computer room with 1 or 2 DECsystem-10/20's surrounded by 1 fleet
    of 11/70's and a VAX or 2.
    
    	Worse, the ever incresing tension between IS and it's customers
    (businesses) caused even more entrenched behavior on both parts. I
    recall the insistence that we not focus on integrating solutions.
    Maintaining tunnel vision was even encouraged in functional design
    classes and certainly by your IS manager, who usually represented
    one piece of the empire and was in direct competition with some
    peer.  I recall a few efforts that were essentially done very quietly
    in terms of management awareness so we could perform subtle issues
    such as ensuring reasonable transfer cost for packaged systems etc...
    
    	Although we employ a different standard for business programmers
    versus software engineers (emphasis on business problems, not elegant
    software solutions, instead of computer science knowledge and end-user
    functional disasters) both types of software professional are going to
    end up in the same rathole due to organizational dynamics.  The only
    intergation I ever recall working effectively came as a reaction to
    either a real or potential business emergency (anyone remember the
    death of product lines?).   In these cases, neccesity lowered the
    political bounderies.   
    
    	Seems if you can convince folk that indeed we have a business
    crisis due to power information integration, you might stand a chance.
    However, it would have to be so serious a crisis that you can afford
    to put all the other priority 1 projects on a lower priority. Of course
    you would also have a unenviable task of convincing all the
    contradicting viewpoints that there is a common superior crisis. A
    tough sell in any case.
    	

   Re: last several including <<< Note 1710.41 by TOOK::SCHUCHARD >>>

[warning, rhetoric ahead]
   
   Is there anyone who is accountable for our administrative
   [in]efficiency/effectivity?  That which is everyone's
   responsibility (as this is) is no one's responsibility.  How
   can we decentralize the responsibility for integrating the
   information environment?  Yet that seems to have been the
   approach of the past decade.  

   Management and individual discipline, concern for the whole
   instead of the parts, providing a technical and business
   vision that includes process and product improvements,
   guaranteeing customer service by processing orders
   efficiently, selecting, training, and deploying people for
   effectiveness; these seem to be the missing links.

Briefly, management 101.

[rhetoric ends]

Dick

    
    	re: .42 - i don't think there is anyone who would claim
    accountability for any other than their own part. 
    
    	I don't condone stove-pipes, and i would agree there is a need,
    but this company does not really have the infra-structure or culture
    to totally pull it off.  I'm not even sure it would be exactly a good
    idea to mandate it - being and who and what we are.