Conference 7.286::digital

> Are they better than us?

This is not necessarily a question you want to have answered.

European travel may well be governed by workers' council decisions.
For example, someone pointed out that "5-day courses" start Monday
afternoon and end Friday morning so the attendees can travel during
business hours.

Also, European air travel may have a completely different mix of
"business class" vs "tourist class," making the cheaper seats
essentially inaccessible to business travellers.

Martin.

Apparently the deal with Lufthansa in the Munich-Nice market is that you can
only by an Economy ticket if you plan to stay over Saturday night.

Otherwise, they will sell you only a Business Class ticket at more than
double the price.

/john

re .1:
    
>For example, someone pointed out that "5-day courses" start Monday
>afternoon and end Friday morning so the attendees can travel during
>business hours.
    
    I don't know if this is the rule for all European training centers.
    Munich recently started doing this - definitely not because of any
    workers' council decisions, but as a cost saving measure. The idea
    behind it is that European participants can catch the course using
    Monday morning flights, and save a night in the hotel. The only country
    where the workers' council would have enough power to influence this
    directly is Germany itself, and German students have always been able
    to arrive in time without an extra might even for a 9:30 starting time.
    
    This all applies to in-house studens; customer courses (which are in
    German anyway) start around 10 if I remember correctly.
    

    In case any non-European based folk think that our European colleagues
    might be travelling in the lap of luxury while the rest of us are being
    laid off/transitioned/downsized, inter-country Business Class in Europe
    is by no means the same as intercontinental Business Class. On the
    airlines I have flown in Europe, the individual seat/space (or lack of
    it) is the same as in Tourist/Economy/Steerage. The service is no
    better, the food (if any) is slighlty better and you get a free
    newspaper.
    
    On one of my trips on British Airways I asked a stewardess how they set
    up the proportion of Business Class to other seats on any one flight
    since it appeared that the seats themselves were the same. She
    confirmed my assumption of identical seats and told me that the cabin
    partion between classes was movable and was moved between flights
    depending on how many of each kind of passenger were booked on the
    flight.
    
    On some flight I found that Steerage was less crowded than Business
    Class and I was thus more comfortable in the back of the plane than up
    front with all those folk on generous expense accounts.
    
    N.B."Steerage" was the description used by shipping lines for the
    section in some passenger ships with the poorest accommodations
    occupied by the passengers paying the lowest fare. This section was
    generally located near the ship's steering mechanism, hence its name.
    It is also an apt description of most airline accommodation.  

    
    "Europe" doesn't fly business class. Some individual country
    subsidiaries do. Others do not.
    
    The principal difference is in ease of ticket change. On economy
    tickets, they often offer low fares by restrictions on ticket changes. 
    Seating, leg space is identical on most airlines for Economy & Business.
    Slightly better food is offered in Business Class.
    
    The subsidiary that hosts me only books Apex tickets if they can. My
    last 14 business trips into mainland Europe were booked Apex. 11 had
    re-scheduling requirements due to customer schedule changes etc. All of
    those had tickets were endorsed "No change or reservations". Had to
    stand in line & negotiate re-scheduling for the lowest price I could
    bargain. On several occasions, was left at destination for several
    unusable hours waiting to get back.  BTW, the cost of Apex + rebooking
    fee is frequently higher than booking appropriately originally -- even 
    without allowing for the lost time & aggravation. (Last week I was
    quoted $170 to rebook on a 1hr return flight from Brussels to London
    -- in Economy).
    
    Travelling around Europe by air as a regular (eg weekly) business
    practice is uncomfortable & unpleasant -- regardless of travel class. 
    It's necessary, & part of my job -- but let's not be mis-led by the base 
    note.

    I am able to confirm that NOONE in my (Euro)Costcenter travels
    Business class neither within Europe nor Transatlantic.
    There never has been a policy allowing you to travel Business
    within Europe anyway, only transatlantic.
    There has been (still is ?) abuse and there have been and still
    are and will be exceptions for valid reasons.
    
    Allow me step on the soapbox:
    
    1- It might be good to have policies to reduce cost.
    2- They are FAR from ADEQUATE to actually accomplish anything
       without MOTIVATION.
    3- I don't (nor do my people) need to be told that we got to get
       the costs down. By now, everyone knows. 
    
    4- I hate to be dictated every detail of implementation.
    
    5- I love to see INITIATIVES (from "above" as well as from "below")
       to really accomplish savings.
    
    down from the soapbox.
    
    Within the context of Europe, one has to realize that there is no
    such entity (in terms of $$$$ ) as DIGITAL Europe. Every country
    is it's own profit and loss subsidiary, which eventually may evolve
    into regional or account profit and loss "Entreprises"..
    Therefore, travelling "Business" in one country (Entreprise) and not
    in the other, should be the entrepreneur's decision.
    (if she/he can proof that it generates profit, why not ?)
    /fred
    
    other is and should be   
    

    Well, I've never yet *not* flown anything else than business class in
    Europe (though I haven't traveled too much lately).
    
    I have never specifically asked for business class, either.
    
    But, on the other hand, because of this discussion, I checked a couple
    of my recent flights and noticed that there were no cheaper tariffs
    which would not have included conditions like a minimum stay etc. that
    would have been possible.
    
    In fact, I have the impression that to get a ticket without
    rebooking/cancelation etc. restrictions, you'll end up paying business
    class in many (most?) cases. Maybe someone who's more up-to-date on the
    situiation in Europe can comment.
    
    The policy here in Germany (I have a hardcopy, it's not available on
    VTX) says in section 4.3, page 4:
    
    "Standardm��ig wird bei Fl�gen Business Class und bei Bahnreisen 1.
    Klasse einschlie�lich Zuschl�ge (z.B. IC-Zuschlag) gebucht. Nach
    M�glichkeit sind verg�nstigungen wie Flieg & Spar Tarife oder �hnliches
    zu nutzen."
    
    

Ora, who is the person who originally asked me about the business class policy,
asked me to translate the last paragraph of his reply .7:

>    "Standardm��ig wird bei Fl�gen Business Class und bei Bahnreisen 1.
>    Klasse einschlie�lich Zuschl�ge (z.B. IC-Zuschlag) gebucht. Nach
>    M�glichkeit sind verg�nstigungen wie Flieg & Spar Tarife oder �hnliches
>    zu nutzen."

In accordance with standard procedures, Business Class flights and First Class
rail, including supplements (e.g. InterCity supplement), will be reserved.
When possible, fare reductions such as the "Fly and Save Tariff" or similar
reductions are to be used.

First Class rail within Germany except on E-, P-, or N- trains or when
seat reservations cannot be made (24 hours in advance) is totally unjustified!

/john

    Here in the UK everyone flies economy class to European destinations,
    and always have.  We used to be able to travel Business class to the
    US, but not anymore.
    
    Business class tickets are only booked for flights longer than 8 hours.
    
    As for Germany, my understanding is that travel conditions for
    employees are negotiated at a national level between workers councils
    and employers.  This means that Digital are unable to dictate "lower"
    class travel than that which has been bindingly agreed to at national
    level.
    
    Here in "Europe", which as a previous noter has pointed out does not
    exist as a Digital entity,  we're all busting a gut so save money
    wherever possible.  We have an effective 1 year Salary freeze in the
    UK.  Nobody needs to tell us not to spend money unnecessarily.  
    
    Lets get our facts straight before we start criticising others for
    waste!
    
    
    John

>Lets get our facts straight...

OK, are you sure that the Betriebsrat is involved in travel policy decisions?

Is that a fact?

    re .9:
    
    �As for Germany, my understanding is that travel conditions for
    �employees are negotiated at a national level between workers councils
    �and employers.  This means that Digital are unable to dictate "lower"
    �class travel than that which has been bindingly agreed to at national
    �level.
    
    This is BS - the workers' council (Betriebsrat) has no say in this.
    They do have a bit more power maybe than in many other countries, but
    it seems to get exaggerated...
    
    As to economy vs. business, I just checked a few more typical (for DEC
    Munich) routes in OAG - for all practical purposes, there seems to be
    no such thing as economy on European flights anymore - i.e. if you want
    to have a flight without limitations (cancelation fees, fixed bookings,
    minimum stay etc.) its business class.
    
    Note that I'm not saying these fares shouldn't be used - but in
    practice, they are often only useful for training trips which tend to
    last a bit longer (at least a week) and have a lower probability of
    being canceled/changed that 'real' business trips (which in my
    experience are 1-2 days and frequently are changed in the last minute).
    
    Just as an example, look the routes Munich-Frankfurt and Munich-London
    (LHR, there are other conditions to Gatwick and Stansted if these can
    be used). As you can see, there's no such thing as a 'normal' economy
    fare to Frankfurt, just either business or special prices for economy
    (fare codes staring with a Y). For LHR, the economy price code Y
    without any limitations is exactly the sabe as C and actually moot.
    
    
==========================PREFERENCE STATUS:  ALL==============================
Fares selected for: MUC-FRA                                 Departs: TUE-02 JUL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fares: WEST GERMAN MARK                           Fare Restriction Summary:
#  One-way   Rnd-trp    Airline/   Farecode   Cancel   Advance     Min.
  No lower fares         Class                Penalty  Purchase    Stay  Other
1                229       LH      YAP3M    :  100*     7 day       -      -
2                324       LH      YPX3M    :  100*       -         -      -
3      249                 LH      C        :    *        *         *      *
4      349                 LH      F        :    *        *         *      *
  No higher fares                               * Additional Restrictions apply
===============================================================================
    
    
LIMITATIONS DISPLAY          TUE-02 JUL
MUC-FRA              FARECODE:YAP3M
LUFTHANSA GERMAN AIRLINES
FARE DESCRIPTION: ECONOMY CLASS FARES
PURCHASE TICKET FOR TRAVEL NO LATER
 THAN 7 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE.
THE PENALTY FOR CANCELLING YOUR TRAVEL
 IS 100 DEM.
 * END OF LIMITATIONS DISPLAY *
    
LIMITATIONS DISPLAY          TUE-02 JUL
MUC-FRA              FARECODE:YPX3M
LUFTHANSA GERMAN AIRLINES
FARE DESCRIPTION: ECONOMY CLASS FARES
THE PENALTY FOR CANCELLING YOUR TRAVEL
 IS 100 DEM.
 * END OF LIMITATIONS DISPLAY *
    
==========================PREFERENCE STATUS:  ALL==============================
Fares selected for: MUC-LHR                                 Departs: TUE-02 JUL
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fares: WEST GERMAN MARK                           Fare Restriction Summary:
#  One-way   Rnd-trp    Airline/   Farecode   Cancel   Advance     Min.
  No lower fares         Class                Penalty  Purchase    Stay  Other
1                524       GEN     YAP3M    :    *      7 day      Sat.    *
2                760       GEN     YPX6M    :  100*       -        Sat.    *
3               1215       GEN     YB       :   20%       -         -      -
4               1307       GEN     C        :    -        -         -      -
5               1307       GEN     Y        :    -        -         -      -
6               1307       BA      C        :    -        -         -      -
7      660                 GEN     YB       :   20%       -         -      -
8      710                 GEN     C        :    -        -         -      -
                                                * Additional Restrictions apply
===============================================================================
    
LIMITATIONS DISPLAY          TUE-02 JUL
MUC-LON              FARECODE:YAP3M
GENERAL FARES
FARE DESCRIPTION: ECONOMY CLASS FARES
MINIMUM STAY IS OVERNIGHT ON SATURDAY.
 MAXIMUM STAY ALLOWED IS 3 MONTHS.
PURCHASE TICKET FOR TRAVEL NO LATER
 THAN 7 DAYS BEFORE DEPARTURE.
THE PENALTY FOR CANCELLING YOUR TRAVEL
 MORE THAN 1 DAY BEFORE YOUR DEPARTURE
 IS 100 DEM.
    
                                                                       

    From the U.K. flights are normally booked as "Euro Budget", this
    equates to economy class in most cases and the key "restriction" is
    no change of flight.

    This is not a hard restriction as I have often needed to change my
    return flight due to a change of schedule and the cost is minimal for
    inter European flights, typically �20-23.

    As somebody else has already pointed out, "Economy" seats are in the 
    minority on many routes. 

    On a recent Lufthansa 737 flight from London-Dusseldorf there were 3
    rows of First Class, 10 rows Business Class and 5 rows Economy.

    On the return British Airways 737 flight, there were only 2 rows of
    Economy seats, the rest were Business Class.  This made for a very
    unpleasant fight with smokers immediately in front and behind.
 
    I was also surprised when I met my U.S DEC colleagues at the hotel,
    they were driving group D rental cars, whereas the U.K. has to hire
    group A.  
    
    Martin.
     

>they were driving group D rental cars

Hopefully they were paying for Group B, because that's all that's authorized.

It seems that the Eurobusiness class (full fare) is the default unless you do
stay over the weekend. For sure it is the standard fare if you want the 
flexibility of changing the flights, which usually is not necessary unless one
thinks to be a VIP.
If you are a single, you could take the opportunity of spending the Saturday and
Sunday visting interesting places and let the company save money, provided that
you pay a couple of extra nights at the hotel. But when you have a family this
is sometimes impossible to do...
Also, on domestic flights (at least in Italy, but I think in other countries 
too) the business class is not available. But the only way of getting a better
fare is:

- honey moon (not always)
- some group trips organized by travel agencies
- family tickect if you are traveling with kids
- elections (this is a typical italian case)
- some strange nightly flights, which brings you to destination after the latest
  bus to the city has left the airport, so that you need a taxi and pay an extra
  for the late hour...

As for flights to US, the site manager here in Varese decided in 1989 (before
the travel restriction were enforced) to fly economy, using all the possible
benefits: Apex, Superpex, Excursion tickets, depending on the duration of the
trip. And we use special tickets (formula like "Visit USA": 3 tickets for 300$)
if we need to fly within US. The availability of such fares on intercontinental
flights lead to the absurd situation that sometimes a trip from Milan to Boston
is cheaper that a trip from Milan to London.
It is true that sometimes we could get even better opportunities just changing
airline. But, please, I demand at least the rights of choosing the sirline, if I
feel safer on Swissair that PanAm...

Re:          <<< Note 1513.13 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

>>they were driving group D rental cars
>
>Hopefully they were paying for Group B, because that's all that's authorized.

What they were paying is irrelevant as long as they were only *claiming* the 
lower fare on their expenses.  When I travelled frequently, I would *always* 
rent a larger car because of my leg length (will not fit in a compact car :-)
but would always pay the difference myself.

-  David

re Note 1513.15 by BSS::D_BANKS:

> When I travelled frequently, I would *always* 
> rent a larger car because of my leg length (will not fit in a compact car :-)
> but would always pay the difference myself.
  
        On behalf of the many employees and stockholders of Digital,
        I want to thank you for your thoughtfulness and generosity to
        the company!

        Since from the above statement it appears that you had no
        choice but to rent a more expensive car in order to conduct
        company-required business, why did you do it?

        Bob

Re:<<< Note 1513.16 by XANADU::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO3-2/T63)" >>>
  
>        Since from the above statement it appears that you had no
>        choice but to rent a more expensive car in order to conduct
>        company-required business, why did you do it?

Not strictly true!  I *can* fit in a compact, but it's extremely uncomfortable
for me.  So I simply felt that it was worth $2 per day (yes, that's all it 
cost me!) for the extra comfort.  No big deal...

Besides, my (ex-)manager wouldn't have approved the higher rate  :-) :-)

-  David

    Further up this rat pole (Rat Holes are for short people - not valuing
    differences :-) )
    
    The size of car on the outside does not automatically determine the
    size of the car on the inside. On several occasions on business trips I
    have got an arbitrary AVIS rental car to find it too small to
    accommodate me. I go back to the rental counter and say "I don't fit in
    your car". In most instances the rental agents are most helpful and
    search around for another car of suitable interior dimensions. One time
    at Heathrow it took trying four cars before finding one that fitted
    thanks to AVIS U.K. having decided to put sun roofs in all their cars.
    (N.B. In the U.K. Vauxhall Cavaliers have the most head room in AVIS's
    current fleet). Usually I have not paid any higher rate for the
    different car even if it is a higher class.
    
    There is a minor requirement of being six feet five or thereabouts for
    this strategy to work.  

    
    
      Is it _really_  completely acceptable for DEC if you pay for a 
    larger car yourself?
    
      Given that DEC Self_insures (I.E. Agrees to pay for)  any damage
    to the rented cars,  if you were to have an accident in a bigger
    (more expensive)  car than the company plan called for,  would DEC
    still pay for the damage?  (I.e.  If I upgrade from Chevette to 
    Mercedes at my expense,  would I have to pay for all damage to 
    the mercedes over the cost of the company provided chevette?)
    
      Due to a bad accident a few years ago,  I'm petrified of small
    cars.  I've developed an alternate strategy which seems to work
    out well.  Whenever I travel,  I get an Avis "Rapid rental"  
    pre-paid voucher,  since I don't have a company credit card.  
    
      The Rapid Rental form is actually a Guaranteed reservation.  
    When I get off the plane,  I got get my suitcase etc,  and get
    at the __END__ of the line at the Avis counter.  Avis gives away
    all the small cars to the people ahead of me,  then gives me
    a larger car for the economy car price.  I've still gotten a car,
    even when people ahead of me were told they were "all out of cars",
    since Avis still holds something (usually big)  in reserve to cover
    the guaranteed rentals.
    
      I don't know if this will work every single time,  but it's always
    worked for me.  I get a bigger nicer car,  and DEC still pays the
    compact car rate...
    
    						-al
    

Ahhh Gi'day...�

    Well, I think we seem to get business class by default.  I don't really
    go  into  the  booking  details,  because  it's a waste of my time, and
    that's  why  we  have an inhouse travel company.  The basic requirement
    seems  to  be  you MUST have Saturday overnight stay and 7 day advanced
    purchase to get a cheaper fare, and then there's no changes.

    I've been  told that one of the reasons we fly Business class (which is
    more  like  US  economy)  is that we have an arrangement with Lufthansa
    that  gets  us a rebate for the amount of money spent with them.  Dunno
    whether  it's  true.   The  travel office is EXTREMELY hard to convince
    that  you want anything but a Business Class ticket.  I've known people
    to have spent days trying, and gave up.

    All US  travel  will  only  get  Apex  or holiday fares, which makes it
    cheaper  to fly to the US than London.  interestingly a US flight takes
    about  two weeks to get approved.  It's not uncommon to be on the phone
    on  the  day  of  flying  to  see  whether you are to be allowed to go.
    Personally, I hate flying, and I do it as little as possible.  I wish I
    could  say the same for some other groups around here.  I won't go into
    details.

    I always  get  a  group  "B"  car,  but sometimes I tend to get given a
    bigger  one,  but I always make sure it's the same price as the group I
    was  booked  for.   Still, there seems to be a WILD difference in rates
    depending on your country of booking.

Re:           <<< Note 1513.19 by MUDHWK::LAWLER "Not turning 39..." >>>

>      Is it _really_  completely acceptable for DEC if you pay for a 
>    larger car yourself?

All I can say is that in all my 10 years (as of last weekend :-) with Digital,
with a good deal of travelling, I've never had any manager or even Petty Cash
(the most appropriate name I've ever come across :-) comlain about it or even
question it.  And that's with the amount shown on the expense voucher being 
different from the amount on the receipt.  To me that's a good indication that
it's about as acceptable as you can get... 

-  David

Re: the base note.

Travel is usually determined by local conditions. Each country
in Europe has different market factors that influence decisions
(one of the reasons many Americans often find Europe hard to
understand at first glance). Examples: 

We in Denmark book our plane tickets through the in-house travel 
agent. The travel agent is charged with providing the most 
cost-effective tickets. In our case this usually means business 
class due to all sorts of restrictions placed upon "tourist" 
class tickets. I often find myself changing my ticket several 
times right up to the departure day - this can only be done with 
a business class ticket. Also, if a trip gets cancelled we are 
still liable for the full tourist class ticket due to cancellation 
penalties. This isn't true with business class tickets. (I also 
quite often have trips cancelled at the last minute.) 

In a nut shell, the flexibility of the business class ticket is
why the company pays the premium - and not as an employee perk
(as the base note in all it's jealousy seems to imply). 

    I thought what we pay for is "full fare economy" tickets, which
    entitles sitting in Business Class. And can be rebooked, re-used on
    no-show etc.
    
    And it means that you get no refund if you get bumped into
    economy-class (because that is all you pay for to begin with).

    
    Re -1.
    
    Not sure who "we" is, in your reply.
    
    In the UK, you are normally booked APEX Economy, with no ability to change
    bookings etc. If you fight very hard, you get S class, which is the
    full economy fare & entitles you to change reservations. You are still
    in the Economy cabin.
    
    On my last 22 international trips, I have had to change reservations
    16 times -- customers are unpredicable creatures. In 11 cases the cost 
    of change much exceeded the cost of paying the money upfront to gain 
    flexibility. It's flexibility that the airlines charge for -- not for 
    a free bottle of pop, or a hot piece of chicken. 
    
    Before I joined DEC, I was on the Board of Management of a large airline,
    & we spent a great deal of time & effort in juggling fares & conditions 
    to maximise yield & minimise slideover. (In those days I travelled First 
    Class -- it's only now that I am hit by the conditions that I was party 
    to imposing!)  Minimising slideover is another reason why on many
    European routes the economy cabin is just about as small as can 
    physically be provided within the aircraft. The intent is that if, as
    an economy passenger, you want to change reservations on key business 
    routes, the few economy seats have long been booked to entitle those 
    passengers to the rock-bottom fare, & the only space left is in Business 
    Class -- at a very hefty upgrade premium. 
    
    The only benefit of this experience is that personal contacts meant that
    many of my re-routings cost DEC no upgrade -- you still can't beat having 
    friends in the right place. Luckily, they don't look for massive
    discounts in return ....
    
    Airlines are well aware that most companies have external-image
    critical staff who are allergic to hassle, & who argue convincingly that
    all of this aggravation to travellers is counter-productive to their 
    equanimity in front of customers & trading partners -- ie book Business 
    in Europe. Some companies are exceptions!
    
    Those who pursue value-pricing can make out a strong case that the
    incremental cost for inbuilt flexibility on an annual personal budget 
    can be more than covered on one incremental contract success (or
    failure -- caused by lack of professionalism, eg arriving late,
    looking stressed, fuming at the rights & wrongs of the irritation just
    handed out to you at the airport, having to leave a meeting at the
    scheduled time 'cos you can't change your booking -- even if your
    customer wants more etc).
    
    Personally, I protect myself from unneccesary stress obvious to the
    customer by following the ticket condition rules, but allowing adequate
    time for extra hassle -- eg travel earlier, return later, overnight more 
    often etc. Means you protect DEC's image with the customer --- but can 
    cost more (to DEC in cash & lost office hours, & staff in lost own time)
    than booking Business class to begin with. 
    
    Funny old world. If you do travel extensively, it it sometimes difficult
    to be confident that accountants have a full grasp of the concepts of 
    indirect costs & opportunity costs. As for those folk who see jumping on
    & off aeroplanes as a jolly ........... no comment.
    
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    
    

re: .24

What's "slideover"?

Bob

    
    Sorry - bad as comms guys with jargon ....
    
    Slideover = the natural desire for customers to save money by
    downgrading travel class, given that all parts of the aeroplane go to
    the same place, & arrive at the same time.
    
    Solution. Difficult, unless you surround low end fares with restrictive
    conditions. Possible salvation from extra service (row width, goodies,
    exec clubs, separate check-in etc), but trivial impact compared to 
    making flexibility hard to find.