Conference 7.286::digital

    This has been discussed several times here already...
    
    The official vacation in DEC Germany is 30 working days (i.e. 6 weeks),
    with 37.5 weekly hours. Those 9.4 weeks come from the fact that when
    the (average) weekly hours was reduced from 40 to 37.5, people were
    acutally supposed to continue working 40 hrs, and the 2.5 hours were
    given as extra vacation days.
    
    But with the very flexible flexitime system here, the choice is up to
    you. You can regularly work 37.5 hours per week, and take 30 days of
    vacation. You could e.g. work a 4-day/40 hour week and keep your >9
    weeks of vacation (this variant would require the manager's approval).
    

RE: .0 VACATION TIME AT DIGITAL.
    
I want to address the point of vacation time in general, and not wander into
any particular country's policy on vacation time.

I take issue with the whole idea of a set amount of vacation time which is
supposed to be *correct* for everyone in a particular area.  I dislike the
implicit statement by the policy makers that everyone in that area is the
same, as regards the amount of vacation time to take.

Does *every single person* in country X absolutely require 'n' weeks of
vacation, and will go stark raving bonkers if they don't get it, but 
*every single person* in country Y requires 'm' weeks of vacation, and 
will go stark raving bonkers if they don't get that?

It seems to me that every person is different enough that the time needed
to "recharge the batteries", "forget about work", "spend time with the 
family", or (your favorite vacation reason here), is different.  2 weeks,
4 weeks, 9.4 weeks, whatever.  Every person is different, and people need
different amounts of vacation time.

I practically *never* take vacations.  I topped out my vacation time 
sometime early in my third year at Digital, and (except for the bumps at
5 and 10 years when I was allowed to accumulate more) I have stayed topped
out.  This is fine with me, it is fine with my family, and everyone who 
is involved with my personal life is happy.

(Begin heavy sarcasm)

But *NO*!  Here come the vacation police, who insist that I am killing 
myself, neglecting my family, and becoming an unproductive, burned out
burden on the company, and a candidate for major medical problems later,
simply because I don't take the politically correct amount of vacation
time for my area of Digital.  

(End heavy sarcasm)


Not to pick on .0, but this paragraph is a sample of what I resent:

>    I remember reading an article in one of the weekly magazines that
>    talked about how the US is way behind the rest of the world in terms
>    of leisure time that employees have. The article talked about the
>    higher stress level that US employees seem to display, along with
>    the higher rate of heart attacks etc. 

In my experience, stress is brought about by frustration.  Some people 
thrive on day to day experiences which would quickly stress out other people.  
I am sure that there are jobs in Digital which would stress me out in 
a few days, and I am equally sure that my job would be boring for some 
and too stressful for others.

But in my job(s) with Digital, I don't need or want vacations.  If I was
forced to take vacations, I would be dramatically *less effective* at 
work, simply because I would spend less *time* at work.

I believe that some people need *more* vacation than the time allowed them
for their area, and others need *less*.  

I sent a proposal to Digital a few years back, which would allow people to
do something with the vacation time they had accumulated, other than taking
it as vacation time.  I proposed either selling it back to the company for
the pay, or allowing me to transfer it to another employee for a consideration
strictly between that employee and myself.  Digital did not adopt my plan,
so I am back to topping out my vacation, and am in the process of breaking
in a new manager.

-- Ken Moreau

    
    
    re .2
    
    I would *guess* that you are in the minority. Most folks don't live for
    their jobs, as you seem to. I envy you. 
    I, on the other hand, working in phone support, taking call after call,
    continuously being bombarded with abuse from customers, *I* need more
    than two weeks away from it a year. Most of the people who work in 
    my area seem to feel the same way. You start to see it when sick time
    goes through the roof. "mental health days" become a way to survive. 
    
    You're right. No one should force you to take vacation. You should be
    able to sell it back if you want to. Or give it to me....
    
    I think that Rolm had the right idea with the sabatical every 5 years. 
    I think it was like a month off, not counted as vacation.
    After spending the last 8 years on the phone, same problem, differant
    day, it gets harder and harder to come into work in the morning.
    AND I would bet that looking at most folks's accumulated vacation, they
    AREN'T in danger of losing any!!!!
    
    So, .2, I'd love to know what you do that you can't stand to be away
    from!!!  You ARE lucky!
    
    cathy
    

    
    
    note 703. goes into great detail about vacation time accrued in each
    country.  It was interesting and enlightening reading to say the least.
    

    Mind you the following is only my opinion in regard to not taking
    vacation time.
    
    I feel taking vacation is not only good for YOU (although your opinion
    may differ) but good for the COMPANY.  I view a manager/worker being
    good by the ability for them to leave work and not have things fall
    apart.  What better test for this than to take a vacation.  I have 
    been surprised to learn of better ways of approaching a problem when I
    return from vacation and see how someone covering my tasks and
    responsibilities did.  If it was up to me I'd make an employee take
    their allocated vacation...and if they refused I'd tell them take the
    time and help another group in the company, this would help change
    their job perspective for a while.
    
    ...in my opinion.
    
    Regards,   
    Michael
    
    

BTW, the claim often made that German workers are out sick less because of
having more vacation is shown to be false by a "Der Spiegel" article from
the issue of 29 April.  Expected hours are after vacation and holidays:

Country		Expected hours	Missing hours	Actual hours

Japan		    2201	     36		    2165
USA		    1904	     57		    1847
Sweden		    1800	    240		    1560
France		    1755	    144	    	    1611
Great Britain	    1754	    119		    1635
Norway		    1725	    178		    1547
Netherlands	    1700	    155		    1545
Denmark		    1680	    101		    1579
Germany (west only) 1651	    145		    1506

RE: .3

I agree that I am very lucky, having had both Engineering (11 years) and
Sales Support (1.2 years) positions in Digital.  There are certainly jobs
in Digital (telephone support comes to mind) which would make me change
my mind about vacations...

I also agree that I am in the minority, though (in certain organizations)
the minority is not as small as you might think.  In my old Engineering
group (about 125 people), the mailing list of those people who got monthly 
reminders about topping out their vacation time exceeded 15% of the group.

Finally, I would *love* to be able to give you some of my vacation.  If you
can figure out how to get Digital to allow us to do that, you can have
2 weeks of it for free, just for getting Digital to change their policy.
Good luck.  Believe me, I have tried.


RE: .5 Vacation good for DEC also! 

I consider your statement:

>    Mind you the following is only my opinion in regard to not taking
>    vacation time.
>    
>    I feel taking vacation is not only good for YOU (although your opinion
>    may differ) but good for the COMPANY.  I view a manager/worker being
>    good by the ability for them to leave work and not have things fall apart.


to be simply a variation on the attitude I referenced before, of insisting
that 'n' weeks of vacation (whatever your area has decided) is essential
for the health/productivity/whatever of the employee.

Taking your position to its (admittedly absurd) conclusion, wouldn't it be
better for the company if I left completely, and things didn't fall apart?
Your statement seems to imply that someone else could do my job better
than I can.  Well, fine, then it is better for the company (because the
job is being done better) and for me (because I can then find a job which
I can do better) if I left the job completely.

That conclusion is ridiculous, of course.  But in my opinion it shows the
logical flaw in your argument.


Let me reiterate my position: People need different amounts of vacation 
time than the arbitrary number of weeks decreed by their area of Digital.
Those people who need more than the 'n' weeks allowed by their area, 
should have a way to get it from those people who need less than the 'n'
weeks allowed by their area.

-- Ken Moreau

RE: .7


>Taking your position to its (admittedly absurd) conclusion, wouldn't it be
>better for the company if I left completely, and things didn't fall apart?
>Your statement seems to imply that someone else could do my job better
>than I can.  Well, fine, then it is better for the company (because the
>job is being done better) and for me (because I can then find a job which
>I can do better) if I left the job completely.

>That conclusion is ridiculous, of course.  But in my opinion it shows the
>logical flaw in your argument.

Ken,

I think that one of the most important reasons for a group to have to cover for
someone who is not there is for the very conclusion you bring up.  How does the
group continue if you leave the company, either by accident or on purpose?

I am the only system manager for a cluster and did not have a backup.  Because
I had to be elsewhere for a week, I forced the group to address the problem. 
If I never missed a day, the group would be in trouble if I were to be hit by
lightning.

I once heard that if a manager has an employee who is indispenible(sic), they
should fire them immediately because no employee should have that much power
over the company.

FWIW,
Lee G.

    I think I was the one who asked the original question about accrued
    vacation time in different countries where DEC does business (since it
    seemed that my European colleagues were always "on holiday").  I find
    John Covert's statistics about sick time kind of interesting, too.  The
    average American worker takes more than a WEEK of sick time a year?  I
    think I have taken one day in the past two years, and that is unusual
    for me in that I almost never get sick anyhow.  I guess maybe I
    *should* be taking the Jewish high holidays as "sick time" instead of
    vacation time (after all, I usually feel pretty sick by the end of Yom
    Kippu, especially if it falls early in the season and is HOT day - no
    liquids for more than 25 hours would make most people sick when the
    temperature is hovering near 90).  I burn up a lot of vacation time
    doing things like Jewish holiday observances, doctor appointments,
    waiting for the repair person to show up, etc., and then am very
    protective of the few remaining days each year, wanting to take a real
    "vacation" in the days left after all of the non-vacation things have
    taken their pieces of time away from my account.  Things are easier now
    that I have been here for more than 15 years and so get 20 days (plus
    personal holiday), but I seldom managed to take an actual vacation the
    first few years I worked here, since there isn't much point in trying
    to "get away from it all" if you have only three days of vacation time
    (out of ten) left!  I did things like fly out to visit my mom (burns
    one day), visit my mom (one day), fly home (third day)...  add two days
    if I managed to sandwich a weekend into it.  I usually take my vacation
    these days over Thanksgiving, since that gives me two extra days.
    
    /Charlotte

    As an American living and working in Germany I really LIKE having
    30 days Vacation plus the before mentioned 37.5 hour work week which
    can also be used as Vacation days.  I do think that the minimum should
    be 4 weeks for every employee, however, the idea of having your
    vacation paid or giving days to others would be an interesting option!
    
    I have found that after a vacation of 5 weeks in the U.S. and then
    returning to work again in Germany ..... I do need some time to adjust
    to getting back to work!  Lets say that I get out of rhythm if vacation
    extends into 4 or 5 weeks.  We still have to get the job done in our
    department (IS) so when an employee is absent for several weeks we
    have to, of course, share the work load.
    
    But, all things considered...... I like the German vacation system.
    By the way I believe most European countries have at least 4 weeks
    vacation time for most employees.  I have seen more of America since
    I have been working in Germany because I have more time to get around
    the country on a nice long vacation.
    
    Bruce

    I'd like to throw in a relevant datapoint.  It is a paper written by 
    Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and Judith LeFevre of the University of Chicago
    entitled, "Optimal Experience in Work and Leisure".  It is from the
    Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Volume 56, number 5
    (1989).  It involves primary research into work and leisure.  They
    found that if a person is matched well as far as their abilities and
    work load, they can actually enjoy work more than leisure.  This is
    related to "flow" which is the basis for "flow theory".  From page
    820:
    
    	"Leisure is not as uniformly enjoyable as it is generally assumed
         to be.  Commonsense assumptions notwithstanding, the most positive
    	 experiences in people's lives seem to come more frequently from
    	 work than from leisure settings ...  
    
    	 How one experiences work and leisure changes dramatically depending 
    	 on whether or not one is or is not approximating the conditions of 
    	 flow.  When a person perceives that both the opportunities for 
    	 action and the skills in the situation are high, then the quality 
    	 of experience is likely to be highly positive, regardless of whether 
    	 the activity is labeled work or leisure.  Conversely, when both 
    	 challenges and skills are low, then the experience tends to be very 
    	 negative both in work and in leisure.
    
    	 Contrary to what one might expect, the great majority of flowlike
    	 experiences in the lives of average adults seem to come from work,
    	 not from leisure.  This is true not only for people working in 
    	 higher level jobs, but also for blue-collar assembly-line workers
    	 ...  It is astonishing that for most people the greatest amount
    	 of flowlike experience in free time comes from driving. 
    	 Apparently a feeling of using one's skills in a challenging
    	 situation is difficult to achieve outside of work, except behind
    	 the wheel of a car.  The next largest source of flow in free time
    	 is simply talking to friends and family.
    
    	 We have, then, the paradoxial situation of people having many more
    	 positive feelings at work than in leisure, yet saying that they
    	 'wish to be doing something else' when they are at work, not when
    	 they are at leisure.  Apparently, the obligatory nature of work
    	 masks the positive experience it engenders.  In deciding whether
    	 they wish to work or not, people judge their desires by social 
    	 conventions rather than by the reality of their feelings."
    
    
    Steve

    
    -1 geez Steve. I dunno about that...
    
    When I'm out camping or hiking through Yosemite, or watching a sunset
    in Jasper, there's not alot of 'Social Convention' at work there....
    There is NO DOUBT in my mind where I'd rather be!
    
    Maybe the people who answered the questions in this 'study' didn't know
    how to enjoy leisure time. If my vacation was spent in a crowded
    airport, or visiting relatives I didn't want to be visiting, or weeding
    my lawn, THEN MAYBE I'D be anxious to get back to work (maybe...!)
    
    I can't remember the last time I was anxious to get back to work.....
    Even Sunday evenings are depressing anymore!
    
    Cathy

    Hey Ken!  Can I have your vacation time?!
    
    Signed,
    Needa Break

    Hi, Cathy!
    
    As I mentioned, the paper was based on primary research, not some folks
    in an ivory tower shooting the bull about work and leisure.  They
    monitored 78 adult workers for a week using an experience sampling
    method to see when they were enjoying themselves.  Perhaps they should
    have had one of them go to Yosemite ...  :)
    
    I'm one of those that some have described as a workaholic.  I work
    during the day.  I work during the night.  I tend not to enjoy
    vacations, but can tell when they are long enough because toward the
    end I start wishing I could stay away from work longer.  I spend time
    with my family, church, politics.  I don't watch much TV and often get
    4 to 6 hours sleep a night.  I think the difference is that I
    experience "flow" more than most people, so I don't find myself wishing
    I were someplace else when at work.
    
    I think the real problem is that there are a lot of people who do not
    have their skills matched well with their jobs.  I expect that the
    study pretty much discounts folks who put in more than 40 hours per
    week.  As for myself, I usually work about 50 hours per week for
    Digital, so this 37.5/40.0 hour thing is kind of moot.  But, I pack a
    lot into the time I have left and live by a planner.  I'm more relaxed
    than most folks I know and more productive.  Because I am a good
    planner, I don't waste much time and I don't worry about things until I
    schedule myself to.  (That's an old trick I learned while managing a 
    restaraunt.)
    
    Basically, if there is a good match of skills with challenge and a
    person manages time well there is less need for vacation time.  I have
    read about "kayoshi" (sp?) as being a problem with Japanese who work so
    much that they die from it.  This is not good time management.  I have
    heard that some Europeans need much more vacation time to live with
    their jobs.  This indicates to me a management problem with assigning 
    skill sets to tasks.  If what we have here is better management of work
    assignments and better management of time, then we have a much better
    situation that is not reflected in the amounts of raw hours worked or 
    vacation time granted.
    
    Steve

re Note 1468.12 by CSC32::PITT 

>    Maybe the people who answered the questions in this 'study' didn't know
>    how to enjoy leisure time. If my vacation was spent in a crowded
>    airport, or visiting relatives I didn't want to be visiting, or weeding
>    my lawn, THEN MAYBE I'D be anxious to get back to work (maybe...!)
>    
>    I can't remember the last time I was anxious to get back to work.....
>    Even Sunday evenings are depressing anymore!

Maybe the people who aren't anxious to get back to work are among those who 
don't find or feel themselves to be adding value.  When one feels valued 
and needed, job satisfaction and dedication follow.

It is a fact that many people are doing non-essential work which adds cost 
instead of value.  Others may not perceive the true value of their work.   
Either group will have more stress than the people who know what their work 
contributes and feel good about it.

The phenomenon of "workaholism" is not illusory either.  There are indeed 
people who use "dedication to the job" to cover up their inability to 
develop a sustained interest in anything else.  

What is the bottom line?  

	"Every man is a world unto himself".

	"Different strokes for different folks".

sum it up for me.

No bureaucratic rule will please everyone, nor are they intended to, so 
let's get back to work and stop quibbling over matters of personal taste.

Dick

    re: .11
    
    I don't know where the study found its subjects, but if the most
    interesting and challenging thing people can find to do during their 
    free time is drive, I pity them.
    
    How about learning to do something creative? (woodworking, painting,
    pottery, writing, dancing, acting, music making -- probably the most 
    rewarding activities there are, imho)
    
    How about doing a sport?  (instead of spectating a sport and watching 
    the beer belly grow)
    
    How about gooddoing? (volunteering...beach and other cleaning, teaching
    the illiterate to read, helping the elderly)
    
    How about being an activist? (protesting the bomb, nuclear plants,
    protesters, whatever)
    
    What I hate about the lack of vacation time is that I have 3 short
    stories and numerous poems waiting to be written, paintings to paint,
    pots to make, music to write, a horse to train and performances to
    choreagraph.  And no time or energy left at the end of the day to do it
    in.
    
    So I'm happy to take any vacation time that anyone would like to send
    my way!
    
    Mary

	Hi,

	The foregoing discussion is full of "I think" and "I wish"
	type statements, but in comparing the German standard
	with Digital US' standard, a crucial point is left out.

	Anybody care to bet that the *very* generous vacation time in
	Germany is the result of government edict ?  From what
	I've read of other German work standards, the Bundes<mumble>,
	the German equivalent of the US Labor Department, 
	insists that workers leave the workplace at quitting
	time....and guards sweep the building to make sure no one
	is finishing up after hours.

	No doubt, if the US government forced companies to give
	employees 16-25% of the year off, Digital US would comply....

	But for how long could it afford this ?

	Keep in mind, folks, here in the US, vacation time is
	a benefit offered VOLUNTARILY by employers.  If employers
	start losing employees to companies with more generous
	vacation policies, the situation will change....  Until
	then, lets let the market work....

	Steve H

    
      dibs on Ken's vacation....  :-)
    
    
      
    
      geez, Steve (-1),
    
      You bring up some interesting points here. I'm sure that the 
      government here could care less if the working folk got ANY
      vacation time!  
    
      And I'd love to discuss it further....but I see no need to 'quibble'
      when I have SO MUCH WORK TO DO.   :-)
    
      cathy  (who does nothing of value here and that's why I need a
              vacation!) 

    Interesting discussion so far.  Having just returned from a three week
    vacation in Germany, I'd probably need six weeks if I lived there too.
    The traffic, crowding, hustle, etc., are really something.
    
    But isn't the whole idea of a vacation something relatively
    new.....post WWII and all that?  I think even when I was a kid in the
    forties most people did not get a vacation.

RE: .8

>I once heard that if a manager has an employee who is indispenible(sic), they
>should fire them immediately because no employee should have that much power
>over the company.

I find this attitude incredible.  If I have found the perfect job for me,
one which matches my talents and interests exactly, and am doing an 
absolutely *terrific* job, producing wondrous results for my employer and
generating tremendous amounts of personal satisfaction for myself, you are
recommending that I be fired for doing too good a job.  After being fired,
I should go out and find a job which does not match my interests or talents,
and which I can do in a slovenly, half-hearted way, hating it all the while,
(but at least taking the politically correct amount of vacation), just so 
that I will not become indispensable.

Sorry, I do not understand this approach *at all*.


RE: .11 (concerning flow at work)

Thanks.  At last someone who understands that work activities can actually 
be as personally satisfying as leisure activities.


RE: .13 (and all the others who volunteered for some vacation time)

I repeat my offer.  The first person who gets Digital to allow this
policy gets 2 weeks as a reward for doing it.  So, Cathy, if you want
dibs on it, start talking to the Executive Committee :-)


RE: .14

Thanks for the support, proving that I am not the only person like 
this who reads this notes file.

By the way, I personally find the term "workaholic" offensive.  It
seems to be that "x-aholic" indicates some overwhelming and uncontrollable 
desire (addiction?) for an activity or substance which is harmful to
the person.  I don't believe this applies to work.


RE: .17

>	Anybody care to bet that the *very* generous vacation time in
>	Germany is the result of government edict ?  From what
>	I've read of other German work standards, the Bundes<mumble>,
>	the German equivalent of the US Labor Department, 
>	insists that workers leave the workplace at quitting
>	time....and guards sweep the building to make sure no one
>	is finishing up after hours.

I ran into that when I did some work in the UK.  I find it astonishing,
and again do not understand it.  But I don't really care who mandates
such policies (whether Digital management or the local government), I 
still think these policies are wrong.

    
RE: .18

>      cathy  (who does nothing of value here and that's why I need a
>              vacation!) 

And doesn't this bear out the studies which were done?  I perceive that
the work I do has value, and contributes to Digital's success (albeit in
a small way), as well as bringing me personal satisfaction.  Based on
Cathy's signature, she does not feel that way.  Hmmm, I wonder if this
is significant? (heavy irony)

-- Ken Moreau

    
    
    re -20
    
    Sorry Ken. I should have mentioned HEAVY SARCASM at my closing remarks.
    I do perceive what I do as having value. I'm sure that the 20 or so
    customers that I help every day perceive my contributions as valuable.
    
    But *I* work to live, NOT live to work. I work to make enough money to
    do the things that I want to do. I don't know about you, but I DON'T
    enjoy HAVING to get up at 6am 5 out of 7 days of the week when it's
    80 degrees outside and sitting INSIDE with a phone in my ear. That is
    NOT how I would choose to spend the better part of my life if I didnt'
    need money to pursue my hobbies. 
    Unfortunatly, since I spend at least 50 hours a week involved in
    Digital 'stuff', that doesn't leave me alot of time to put my
    money to good use!! 
    
    I can't say that I can agree with the idea that people only want more 
    vacation 
    because they don't feel that their jobs are valuable or that their
    skills match their jobs.
    You don't have to be unhappy in your job to want to be able to do and
    see other things in life. 
    That's like saying you went on a cruise cause you don't like where you
    live. 
    
    ...... sounds to me like one of those mall surveys...or a Kinsey report
    at best!! :-)
    
    I have to believe that Human beings like to have some portion of their
    lives that is NOT under the control of someone else.  
    
    cathy                                              
    

    FWIW:  The comparison between vacation Germany and vacation US isn't
    complete...
    
    The insurance company for which my wife works in personnel provides 
      30 days of vacation /year
      + a 37.5 hr workweek
      + several unspecified days/year that can be used for tending a
      + sick child, attending a funeral, etc...
      + flextime hours
      etc...
    
    Basically, it doesn't have to be a government edict...  just a desire
    on the company's part.
    
    As to the question of "how long Digital could afford to provide the
    large vacation times"...  how do the German companies afford it?  There
    has been a lot of discussion in other notes about how unproductive US
    companies are, how our expenses are out of line with the rest of the
    world, how our salaries are too high, etc...  If the salaries in
    Germany are comparable, and the vacation time is 3-4 times as great as
    here, then how do they stay in business?  What am I missing?

    I find this topic interesting....!
    
    Perhaps many people have a false impression of Germany and laws
    concerning vacation time, workers rights etc.  NOT everything is
    dictated by the Government.  The Law does require companies to give
    employees a min. of 18 day vacation per year! Working hours are
    a matter of company policy and nagotiations as well as any vacation
    companies provide employees > than 18 days.  The market does pretty
    well dictate what is standard.  If Siemens, or IBM, or BMW, etc
    is giving 30 days vacation, then Digital Germany will also give 30
    days vacation.  
    
    I think it is difficult to compare one country to another without
    considering the many social factors involved.  Just numbers is not
    enough!
    
    I say again, however, I DO LIKE having 30 days vacation a year because
    it gives me more time with my family and a chance to persue other
    interests.  Digital is just one part of my life! When I work, I try to
    give the company my best efforts, and when I am off work I try to
    concentrate on other things (sports, working in the garden, house
    repairs etc etc etc).
    
    If someone wants to work 50+ hours a week with no vacation time off
    that is fine with me.  I enjoy both work and as much time off as I
    can get........
    
    Bruce

RE: .20

Ken, my statement did NOT mean that you should quit.  Let me restate the idea.
If I am a manager and I have an individual in my group that can not be 
replaced, what do I do when that person either leaves, gets sick, or is other-
wise not available for a period of time?  Do I let my group fail?

No one should be indispensable because no company can afford to have a single
point of failure.  That was the only thing I was saying.  Having people 
perfectly matched to their jobs is goodness.  Having only one person that can
do the job is not.

Lee G.

RE: .21

Sorry, Cathy, I took what you wrote at face value.  But whether the 
feeling of not feeling valued at work, or not contributing to the success
of the company applies to you personally (and apparently it does not,
for which all of us should be glad), the point does seem to apply to 
a fair number of people.  The whole "thank god it's friday" attitude
seems to indicate that a fair number of people do not like their jobs,
and much prefer the time spent away from work.


RE: .24

>Ken, my statement did NOT mean that you should quit.  Let me restate the idea.
>If I am a manager and I have an individual in my group that can not be 
>replaced, what do I do when that person either leaves, gets sick, or is other-
>wise not available for a period of time?  Do I let my group fail?

No, what you do is make the training of other people be one of the tasks
of the the invaluable person.  That way, over time, the person is still
doing a terrific job, but is no longer "indispensable".

>No one should be indispensable because no company can afford to have a single
>point of failure.  That was the only thing I was saying.  Having people 
>perfectly matched to their jobs is goodness.  Having only one person that can
>do the job is not.

In my experience there is no such thing as an "indispensable" employee.  
Often people are perceived as such, but when they leave the group somehow
pulls together and continues.  I have seen this multiple times, which 
says to me that indispensability is more perception than reality.  No
one, no matter who they are, is truly indispensable.  Look at Steve Jobs
as an example.  He left (fairly acrimoniously) and the company is still doing 
quite well.

-- Ken Moreau

    re .6:
    
    John, you know perfectly well that the 'missing hours' and someone
    actually being sick are two totally different things (and a
    controversial topic at least here, anc certainly in Sweden also). After
    all, that's all the article in Spiegel was about. Looking at the
    numbers you gave Swedes are *real* sick.
    
    I don't know the rules in US, but here, you can have 3 consecutive sick
    days without a doctor's confirmation. I don't think there's an official
    limit for the number of times per year (but I think most emplyees would
    get a bit patient if you are sick for 3 days, show up for one, and then
    sick again for 3 etc. etc.).
    
    In Sweden, the same number is 7 (calendar) years, with the significant
    difference that you don't even have to inform your employer you're
    sick, you just have to inform the (socialised) medical insurance
    system. According to some sources, there are people in Sweden who hang
    around at airports, trying to get cheap leftover seats for package
    tours to the South... if they find one, they just quickly phone the
    appropriate medical insurance office, leave a message on their
    answering machine if it's weekend, and fly away for a week...
    
    What I'm trying to say with the examples above is that the number of
    'sick days' is certainly dependent on how easy it is to report sick
    without any further consequences (loss of pay, job, whatever).
    
    re .17: As already stated elsewhere, the 30 or more days vacation
    and/or 37.5 hour workweek is *not* mandated by law. Most of it has been
    achieved by the unions (especially the shorter workweeks) - and
    companies like DEC eventually have to comply because of market
    pressure. Call it voluntary if you will.
    

    As Groucho Marx once said, "I like my cigar, but I take it out of my
    mouth now and then."
    
    Ken,  I'll agree that your lack of desire for vacation time is your
    business -- if you'll quit implying there's something wrong with me for
    enjoying my time off as much as I enjoy working.
    
    -dave

    For those that have interest in the "what do you do with experts"
    question, I posted an informal and unpublished paper that dealt with that 
    and other similar work assignment issues in CAPNET::DELTA_TEAMS note 8.14.
    KP7 to select.  The paper might also contribute constructively to this
    topic.  
    
    Steve 

RE: .27
    
>    Ken,  I'll agree that your lack of desire for vacation time is your
>    business -- if you'll quit implying there's something wrong with me for
>    enjoying my time off as much as I enjoy working.
    
That was never my intention.  I went to great deal of trouble to write my
replies trying to be understanding of both sides.  Obviously I did not do
as good a job as I intended.

Therefore, to Dave and all others who thought that I was implying there is
something wrong with people who take vacations, I apologize.  I do not 
feel that way, and I will try to write all future replies more carefully
to not give the impression that I do feel that way.

I am very happy that each person has found activit(ies) in their life which
give them pleasure and fulfillment, be it work, travel, their family, 
hobbies, or whatever.  I never meant to cast aspersions on what activities
those were or were not.

-- Ken Moreau

    'pology accepted.  I'm afraid this is one of those areas where the only
    possible solution is a dedication to respecting the other guy's
    differences.  
    
    I will always always have to fight the tendency to label you a
    "workaholic", while you will have to contend with a nagging doubt that
    I'm not really serious about my work...
    
    -dave

    
"We tend to get all wrapped up in the business, which is important.  But 
remember the other things, too: your family, your wife or husband.  You owe 
it to the people you're responsible for to work hard, but business can't be 
everything.  So as we push and drive hard for business  -- which is the 
excitement, the fun and the reponsibility -- remember there are other 
things, too."

         - Ken Olsen
    
                    
    I agree with this quote 1000%.   
    I like my work, I work hard, and out of work I play hard.
    Also just because somebody else can do your job doesn't mean you 
    are not needed in the job.  Like I stated in .5, I think
    an employee is doing a great job if they clearly define their
    tasks and responsibilities so that they can be passed onto others.  
    
    Even if work is your ultimate joy in life, I feel too much of any one
    thing is unhealthy, one must maintain a balance in life.  If one choses
    not to have a balanced life, I defend their right to live as they want, 
    but I still think a well balanced life makes a better rounded person.
    
    Ken (.2,.7,.29) thanks for your opinions, its all these differing views
    that make working at a large company interesting.
                                                       

"Thank God it's Friday" is a phrase that has always annoyed me.  It implies a
dissatisfaction with one's job that I don't understand and have never
experienced.

Paul

    Paul, you're making the assumption that TGIF is indicative of one
    being dissatisfied with one's job.  I happen to be of the theory
    that TGIF is indicative of the satisfaction of having completed
    a productive (and possibly stressful) week of work, and it's time
    to kick back, crack open a cold one and rest up for the week ahead.

    Also, many of us (myself included) work in order to support the
    things we like to do on the weekend.  Hence, the phrase TGIF.
    
    Mark.

    
    re: .33
    
    Let me guess, your CC manager is reading this, right?
    
    /prc

When you do your job, do a he*l of a job
When you go on vacation, have a he*l of a good time
When you party, have a he*l of a party.

re .34:

Mark,

I see your point.  There's no conflict between liking your job and being glad
it's the weekend.  Sounds healthy to me.  What's annoying are the whiners who
hate their job, complain about it all the time, and get in the way of
productive work.  Fortunately, I've seen almost none of this at Digital.

Paul

      Ken,
      I find your position very interesting. I think that there is no wrong or
      right way about the vacation question, the many flavours of people we
      have makes life more interesting. Your position raises some issues in
      the workplace. If you have a few seconds I would like to hear your
      opinion(s).
      1.  Do you have a better word for someone who works long hours and
      prefers work to taking holidays.?? Workacholic offends so I would like a
      simple word which is descriptive but does not offend.
      2.   How do you feel that the extra time that a worka* contributes
      should be considered. eg. extra 2 hrs/day, no holidays Therefore extra
      10%/yr === 130% contribution compared to the norm. (do not check the
      numbers, this is just an example.)

      *	the extra 30% should be paid.  == 130% salary
      * The extra 30% should be ignored.  == 100% salary
      * The extra 30% should be penalised. == 80% salary
      * The extra 30% should be treated as employee leisure time and therefore
        >>the employee<< should pay the company. In the same way that I have
        to buy leisure time. salary - x%.
      Rgds,
      Stephen      

RE: .38

>      1.  Do you have a better word for someone who works long hours and
>      prefers work to taking holidays.?? Workacholic offends so I would like a
>      simple word which is descriptive but does not offend.

I don't have a word for it.  I've never really thought I needed one.  I do
feel fortunate to have found jobs that I enjoy, so how about "lucky"? :-)

But your statement contains an assumption which is not true in my case.
With the exception of when the job demands it (and every job demands it
at some time), I don't spend excessively long hours at work.  I average
a 45 hour week, including the time I spend at home dialed in.  A bit 
above average (this could easily be wrong) but not excessive.

I do not believe that I am the "Type A" personality who lives, eats, and
breathes work, to the exclusion of all else.  I believe (and my family
agrees) that I am a good father and husband, and do not spend too much
time away from my family.  I believe that I am pretty much like everyone
else, with the one small difference of overflowing vacation time...


>      2.   How do you feel that the extra time that a worka* contributes
>      should be considered. eg. extra 2 hrs/day, no holidays Therefore extra
>      10%/yr === 130% contribution compared to the norm. (do not check the
>      numbers, this is just an example.)

My algorithm (which I proposed to the Compensation Committee) is simple:
Digital already has the mechanisms in place to give people vacation pay
in advance.  Simply pay me my vacation days in advance, deduct the time
as if I had taken it, and let me continue drawing my regular salary.

So in effect I would create a 54 or 55 week year for myself.  52 regular
weeks of pay, plus 2 or 3 weeks of vacation pay.  Digital gets its value
(I am doing my job for 52 weeks) and I get my vacation (at least the pay
portion of it).

The proposal was rejected because they said that it would salary planning
difficult to do.  Right now they can assume that my salary will be $x.
Some percentage is in salary, some in vacation time, some in company
holidays, but $x doesn't change.  My algorithm would mean that some number
of weeks of my pay would be required above $x.

-- Ken Moreau

    Work and personal/family time needs to be put into perspective.
    
    Work used to be my life (military).  It lead to a divorce.
    
    Work now is my livelyhood (spelling?), my family is my life.
    
    After I figured out the difference, my wife and I got back together.
    
    I do take my job seriously, I just don't take it home.

      OK Ken,
      I understand your position better now. 45 hours/week, most of us who
      enjoy our jobs are happy if we can get out in that time.
      Attending the office during vacation should not be any problem. If you
      approach your boss and book your holidays then turn up. I cannot see how
      any reasonable manager can have problems with that. An alternative is if
      you turn up on March 31st 1991 and reserve the first 2 weeks of March
      1991 as holiday then this could also be a way around the administrative
      issue.
      I see vacation a little like the carrots on the side in a fixed meal,
      you may not want them but you cannot exchange them for potatoes.
      There is also the market ecconomy aspect of working during the vacation.
      The majority of workers wish to reduce the time they spend working, in
      order to increase the time they spend playing. If an employer finds
      someone wishes to spend his *play* time at work, then why should the
      employer pay him for that.
      Among the many petty reasons you have probably heard is of cource that
      the budget for 1 person is x$/year  so to pay you for 60 weeks/year
      would overrun.
      I think that the market ecconomy reason is the greatest. If you are
      willing to give your holiday away then who on earth will pay you for
      them.
      Rgds,
      Stephen...
      ps I have so many things to do,, which cannot be done overnight/over the
      weekend that I welcome my holidays. Some of these things are also to do
      with computers.

    re -2.....I don't take my work home either.  As a matter of fact, I
    won't have a terminal in the house.  If I can't do it at work that's
    tough.
    
    At the week 2.5 point of a recent 3-week vacation, I found myself
    thinking of work for the first time.  I tried to remember the name of
    the product I had been working on.  I couldn't, so after about five
    minutes I gave up.  Now that's a good vacation.
    
    BTW, in addition to all their time off, Germans also get two months
    pay in December....even Social Security recipients get two checks...and
    they still outproduce us.  Makes you wonder.

>and they still outproduce us

By what metric?  GNP per capita is higher in the U.S. than in any other
country ('cept a few weird and small places like Kuwait and Bermuda).

    re Kuwait, they may figure per capita by dividing by the number of
    citizens (about 30 % of the population, I believe).

>Note 1468.43                      vacation time                         43 of 44
>
>By what metric?  GNP per capita is higher in the U.S. than in any other
>country ('cept a few weird and small places like Kuwait and Bermuda).
>
      Talking about metrics... The average standard of living in the 
      European countries is higher than the average standard of living in
      America.
      The standard of living of the bottom 30% Americans is lower than the
      average standard of living in neighbouring third world countries like
      Jamaica. "Scientific American Oct/nov? 1990". The criteria used was
      health (tb) and nutrition.
      Rgds,
      Always interesting to measure good/bad more/less.... 8-0

    	I work to live.  I don't live to work.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    re:.45
    
    A sad state of affairs...especially distressing when you consider that
    the US is the wealthiest nation on earth.
    
    Just curious: Since it's pretty well known that most American Indians
    live below the poverty line,did Scientific American include them in
    their 30%? The figure may be quite different since the US now considers
    the Indians to be residents of a different country. (at least that's
    what some guy writing in trailer life said)
    
    Ken

>    
>    Just curious: Since it's pretty well known that most American Indians
>    live below the poverty line,did Scientific American include them in
>    their 30%? The figure may be quite different since the US now considers
>    the Indians to be residents of a different country. (at least that's
>    what some guy writing in trailer life said)
>    
>    Ken
      I will see if I can find the article. If they were mentioned I will post
      a comment. I was just trying to find out what is GNP...
      Rgds,
      Stephen

    re -2 ... ken if you're talkin' per capita income, we are way down the
    list and still falling.  We ARE NOT the wealthiest nation in the world
    by a long shot anymore.  I believe even Japan has now passed us in per
    capita income.
    
    Re the 30% of Americans living below the line...all you've got to do
    is go to a place like Germany and keep your eyes open to realize that
    they have a much higher standard of living.  There is no visible
    poverty, period.  In three weeks this past May I never say a poorly
    maintained home, a junker car, or a piece of trash on the highway.  We
    no longer set a standard for anything.

     re. 48   GNP = Gross National Product.

>    Re the 30% of Americans living below the line...all you've got to do
>    is go to a place like Germany and keep your eyes open to realize that
>    they have a much higher standard of living.  There is no visible
>    poverty, period.  In three weeks this past May I never say a poorly
>    maintained home, a junker car, or a piece of trash on the highway.  

    Dick, by any chance did you skip the eastern part of Germany?

>    We no longer set a standard for anything.

    Do you really believe this?  If so you are one misinformed person.
  
    -Bruce

< Note 1468.49 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >

>    list and still falling.  We ARE NOT the wealthiest nation in the world
>    by a long shot anymore.  I believe even Japan has now passed us in per
>    capita income.

	1) I don't think the "even" is necessary.  That is what Japan has
	   aimed for since the war.
	2) Statistics may say so but I'll live in the U.S. with my current
	   pay (even though Japan has (barely) no aids, violent crime,
	   drugs....)

The grass looks greener doesn't it?
(By the way, I have lived in the U.S. for five years.)

Tim Aihara
DEC-Japan

      This is just a question Tim, How does Japan fair regarding vacation
      days and public holidays.
      I did not quite understanded your point 2)

	2) Statistics may say so but I'll live in the U.S. with my current
	   pay (even though Japan has (barely) no aids, violent crime,
	   drugs....)

      Would you now chose to live in the US rather than Japan..??
      
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      re east Germany.
      I have never been there, but you must remember that West Germany has
      committed to make 1 country from the 2. This means bringing 16 million
      of the poorest and demotivated people in Europe up to one of the highest
      standard of living in the world.
      Rgds,
      Stephen

    The following entry has been contributed by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous.  If you wish to contact the author by
    mail, please send your message to QUARK::MODERATOR, specifying the
    conference name and note number. Your message will be forwarded with
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				Steve






    Well, I just read this whole string in one sitting... it seems
    to be going down the ole rathole, so lemme see if I can bring
    it back on-subject...

    First of all, this is a subject that's been bothering me a lot
    lately too.  It's nice to see others who feel the same way...

    First off, let me state for the record that I love my job.  I
    feel very highly valued by my group and by my manager, and I
    wouldn't trade this job for the world.

    I also love chocolate mousse, but that doesn't mean I want to
    eat it at every meal!

    Quite frankly, I have a lot of outside interests in my life; some
    that I'm trying to persue currently, some that I used to persue
    and would like to again "if I get the time", and some that I
    never did pursue but would really like to get into.  Like the
    noter who "wants to ride her horse", I too have symphonies to
    write, cabinets to build, languages to learn, as well as lots
    of pent-up NOTHING that I've never got around to doing!

    I've been a working stiff for seven years.  For the first few
    years I figured it was OK to put my personal life on hold in
    order to get my career under me.  Well, I've been holding my
    breath for seven years now... I'm starting to turn blue, and
    there's no end in sight.

    One thing that doesn't help is that vacation time accrual is
    not "portable".  Because my sub-specialty (UNIX internals)
    is notorious for its high turnover rate, I've worked for
    several companies in that seven years.  Each time, the vacation
    clock would get re-set to "two weeks".  I joined DEC six
    months ago.  That means I'm back at two weeks again, and for
    the next 4.5 years.

    To put it bluntly, I can't take it anymore.  I'm not getting
    any younger, and I need time to do some of the things that
    *I* want to do!  I, too, have to nickel-and-dime my vacation
    to death for such things as waiting for the electrician,
    going to the doctor, etc.  The brief snatches of "real"
    vacation that I'm able to take are just barely enough for
    me to decompress before I have to suck in a great big breath
    and dive back into work again......

    So:  I've seen a lot of b*tching and moaning in this string
    on the subject, but is there anything any of us can *DO*
    about this, both individually AND collectively?  Somehow,
    suggesting to Delta or the Exec Committee that U.S. employees
    would be better off with the option of taking more vacation
    time feels a bit like Oliver Twist begging for more gruel...

    Should I just take the occasional "three-sick-days" and hope
    nobody notices?  Should I scrimp and save so that I can afford
    to take a few weeks' unpaid leave?  Should I go to a pshrink
    and get a prescription for a few weeks off?  Should I maybe raise 
    a great big rancid corporate-wide STINK on the issue?

    Re -2 -- Bruce, I'm fully aware of the situation in Eastern Germany, as
    I think you are.  I don't think it's fair to try to include the former
    DDR in my comparison.
    
    It's tough to talk to Americans about us not being the best, cheapest,
    brightest, richest, etc., etc., anymore.  Americans are so terribly
    uninformed about the rest of the world that far too many still believe
    what they were told in the post WWII era.  
    
    I love this country, and I don't think I would want to live anywhere
    else....but at the same time I'm sickened by the damned mess we've made
    out of it, particularly our cities, infrastucture, schools, etc.  WE
    AIN'T THE BEST ANYMORE!!  and that's OK, but we should understand that.
    ...and I could also live quite comfortably in a number of other
    countries...(I know, why don't I).  
    
    Western Europe, in general, evidences a far higher standard of living
    across the total population base than we do IMNSHO.  I don't give a
    damn about the number of refrigerators, or phones or cars or toilets
    per household.  Those are not a measurement of standard of living.
    Good housing, roads, schools, recreational facilities, and medical care
    are.  I just wish we'd grow the hell up, that's all.
    
    I just absolutely cringe everytime I hear some politician rave on about
    how "that could only have happened in our great American Democracy,
    etc., etc.," ad naseum.  There are a good two dozen democracies that
    offer as much or more personal freedom, protection of basic rights, and
    equivalent or better "standards" of living.  When are we gonna learn
    that.  Canadians and Australians must think we're all nuts.
    
    

< Note 1468.52 by EICMFG::BINGER >

>      This is just a question Tim, How does Japan fair regarding vacation
>      days and public holidays.
	
	This is the DEC-J statistics.
	1) As a new recruit you get 12 paid vacation days per year
	   which increases by 1 day until 20 days max.
	2) We get all public holidays.
	3) Some extra days(maybe 3) that are thrown in because of the
	   cultural convenience (Golden week)
	4) And of course saturdays and sundays.

	Reality is:
	1) I wanted to use up 15 days of vacation days in one shot.
	   I was told that it was impossible..
	2) Not too may people use up their vacation days
        3) Not everybody goes home at 5:30 pm

>      I did not quite understanded your point 2)
>      Would you now chose to live in the US rather than Japan..??

	Exactly.  The true standard of living is hard to measure
	by numbers like GNP alone.  You have to take into account
	living expenses, etc. etc.  Japan is the 2nd largest economic
	power in the world...that says nothing about the standard of 
	living of its inhabitants.

	On the subject of vacations...only if I could do something on the
	weekends without paying a dollar for every liter of gas that
	I burn, waiting in a traffic jam for 3 hours to go 30 miles..
	getting charged exorbitant prices when I get to my destination..
	waiting in lines all day....

	Believe me, some things in the U.S. are still far better than
	some other countries.

	Tim Aihara

RE: 1468.53


You can't have your cake and eat it too...

Either you stay with one firm and acquire vacation time 
commensurate with your seniority...

Or you hop from job to job, foregoing long vacations for the 
large pay raises one gets by switching jobs frequently...

Or you move to Europe and put up with obscene taxes tempered by 
vacations that vary between 4 weeks to 6 weeks depending on the 
country. Frankly, once you get used to a lower MATERIAL standard 
of living the long vacations become real enticing.


Regards,

Geoff (5 weeks of vacation and a 50% tax rate)

    re: .53 "anonymous reply"
    
    If you're going to raise a big corporate stink, I suggest you not do so
    anonymously.  Would would pay any attention?
    
    Dick.

Re .53:

Find a job within Digital working for management that doesn't charge you
vacation time for waiting for the electrician.
				/AHM

Dick,

I disagreed with your statement "We no longer set the standard for anything".
I agree that "our great American Democracy" has taken us from the single elite
to just one of many at the top. But we are one of the many at the top and still
lead in some areas.  Also I'm sure that we could argue over what BEST means,
but the fact of the matter is the U.S. with all it's problems is still the
country I(and you) want to call home.  

-Bruce

    I don't know, I still have a hard time understanding the noter who
    NEVER takes vacations.  He says he has a family.  Surely there are
    events in your children and wife's lifes that do not occur on Saturday
    or Sunday.  My father was in the military and worked in a hospital, and
    I can honestly say that I wish he could have spent more time with us.
    People are not really honest sometimes, because I can remember my dad
    asking us about his hours, and we always used to say "It's OK."  In our
    society, it is acceptable for fathers to distance themselves from their 
    children, and that is very sad.  Please don't feel that I am saying
    that you are not a good father, but don't forget the simple pleasures
    that having a family can bring.
    
    Debbie

    RE: .59
    
    Bruce, I think Dick's closer to the truth than you are. In almost every
    area we've fallen behind as a world leader and in some critical areas
    we're near the bottom. In primary and secondary education for example.
    And even in higher education while we maintain leading institutions
    most of the students are foreigners. Yea, we all love this country and
    there are few others we'ld even consider. But we better wake up or 
    else our children will have no choice.
    
    

>most of our students are foreigners

Baloney.

RE: .60

>    I don't know, I still have a hard time understanding the noter who
>    NEVER takes vacations.  He says he has a family.  Surely there are
>    events in your children and wife's lifes that do not occur on Saturday
>    or Sunday.  

I agree with this.  My daughter (just entering 1st grade) has school and
other activities that I do participate in.  My son (not yet in school)
has less of those, but both children's activities will increase as they
get older.  Sometimes these mean putting in for a few hours of vacation 
time, sometimes "comp time" covers it.  But I distinguish this type of 
activity from the several weeks of time away from work that it seems that 
we were referring to as "vacation".

>    People are not really honest sometimes, because I can remember my dad
>    asking us about his hours, and we always used to say "It's OK."  In our
>    society, it is acceptable for fathers to distance themselves from their 
>    children, and that is very sad. 

I agree that it is sad, and I don't believe that I do that.  My wife tells
me that I am very involved in my children's activities and lives, more so
than many other fathers (according to her, I have no way of judging this, 
nor am I making *any* comment on how well other fathers are parenting).

I of course could be rationalizing all of this, and making mistakes that
my children will grow to resent.  A real possibility, but I can only go
on the evidence that I, my wife, and my children see today. 

-- Ken Moreau

    I agree somewhat with .-1 - I take very little vacation (a day here, a
    day there) and am very involved in family activities - like .-1, I'm in
    sales support (on the Gulf Coast) and can 'do a couple of days at the
    beach' very easily, I don't have to take a week off to do so. 
    Additionally, I've found that if I take 1-2 weeks off (in order to use
    up vacation I'd otherwise lose) it takes nearly a week after returning
    to work to 'get back up to speed'.  I guess what some of us would like
    is the ability to 'sell some of our vacation' back to the company
    rather than carry it over to the next year or worse yet, lose it.  This
    approach may not be for everyone, but it would help some of us out....

re .63:

>                                        But I distinguish this type of 
>activity from the several weeks of time away from work that it seems that 
>we were referring to as "vacation".

I must have missed the news the day that Palm Beach seceded from the U.S.
and joined Germany.  Here in the U.S.A., we don't get "several weeks" of
vacation.

    Ken why don't you try something?  Take four weeks of vacation (you must
    have that much), pile the wife and kids into the old buggy, and just
    wander the back roads of this country.  You might just find out what
    you and your family are missing.  After that, if you still feel the
    same way, I could understand.
    
    Oh, on the issue of needing a week to come "up to speed"....my God man,
    that's the whole idea.  You're literally supposed to forget it all.

Thanks for your replies so far.

I *was* a bit emotional when I posted .53; let me try to rephrase the
question a bit more dispassionately:

I am personally aware of the problem that not everybody has the same
needs for vacation time.  I myself am on the verge of burnout and
could use more time off than I'm "officially" entitled to.  What would
be the best approach to use to deal with the problem:  acting locally
(i.e. work things out between me and my manager), or acting globally
("raising a big corporate stink" to try and change corporate policy)?
The former approach has a much higher chance of success than the
latter, but it does nothing for those people who aren't lucky enough
to have a nice manager like mine.  Both the little problem (mine) and
the big one (everybody else's) need to be addressed; which would be
the better place to direct my efforts?

In response to particular comments:

.57> If you're going to raise a big corporate stink, I suggest you not do so
.57> anonymously.  Would would pay any attention?

The reason I'm staying anonymous right now is that I want to figure out
my own plan of action before I broach the subject with my manager.  I don't
THINK my manager reads this notesfile, but I can't be positive...  if I
DO decide to take this matter corporate, I of course won't stay anonymous...

.58> Find a job within Digital working for management that doesn't charge you
.58> vacation time for waiting for the electrician.

Well, now that you mention it, nobody ever really "charges" me for vacation
time; rather, if I'm out of the office for a whole workday and I'm not 
otherwise on company business, I submit a vacation timecard for that day
or make up the time on a weekend.  It's a habit I got into at my previous 
places of employment....

You mean it's not done that way at DEC? 8-)

Re: .56:

> Either you stay with one firm and acquire vacation time 
> commensurate with your seniority...

> Or you hop from job to job, foregoing long vacations for the 
> large pay raises one gets by switching jobs frequently...

First of all, I think it's time to question the notion that vacation
time necessarily needs to be tied to seniority.  Indeed, when you get
to a certain level of seniority, you might end up accruing gobs of
vacation time that you can't use because the company needs you at your
desk all the time 8-)  [Wasn't someone talking in another note about
the fact that highly-paid top execs frequently work 6-day 80-hour
weeks and wreck their home lives?]

As for "hopping from job to job"... it's been my experience in the
industry that, at least in software engineering in New England and
California, short tenures and frequent job changes are more the norm
than the exception.  I worked entirely at startup companies before 
coming to DEC; it was truly a culture shock to me to have people talking
about spending ten, fifteen, or even twenty years with the company!
I scanned thru a lot of resumes when doing recruiting at my other
companies; three to four years seemed to be about the average tenure.

I, personally, never job-hopped for the purpose of chasing dollars;
generally, my job changes were either the result of impending corporate
bankruptcy or working conditions that were making my life miserable.

> Or you move to Europe and put up with obscene taxes tempered by 
> vacations that vary between 4 weeks to 6 weeks depending on the 
> country. Frankly, once you get used to a lower MATERIAL standard 
> of living the long vacations become real enticing.

Hmmm... maybe I'd better brush up on my German? (1/2 8-) )

> Geoff (5 weeks of vacation and a 50% tax rate)
                                   ^^^
Hmmm... lessee.... in the U.S. my income tax bracket is 33%, Social
Insecurity adds another 7.<mumble> percent, Massachusetts takes
nearly another 6%.... we're up to 46% already.....

Re .67:

>.58> Find a job within Digital working for management that doesn't charge you
>.58> vacation time for waiting for the electrician.
>
>Well, now that you mention it, nobody ever really "charges" me for vacation
>time; rather, if I'm out of the office for a whole workday and I'm not 
>otherwise on company business, I submit a vacation timecard for that day
>or make up the time on a weekend.  It's a habit I got into at my previous 
>places of employment....
>
>You mean it's not done that way at DEC? 8-)

Be glad to explain:

I assumed, perhaps unjustifiably, that anyone with "knowledge of Unix internals"
as a job skill could accomplish productive work from home (via a remote
terminal) on those odd days when one has to stay home for a repair person.  In
my group of software engineers it is quite common to get a message that says
"I'll be in late this morning because ..." (or even "I'll be working from home
today because ...").  I don't perceive that the person is at home, working,
*and* taking a hit against vacation time.

Without unintentionally drawing you into a game of "20 questions" about the
nature of your job that might violate your anonymity, I'll frely grant that this
might be much harder to pull off for some jobs (e.g. working at a customer
site).  I can only really draw upon my experience working as a software engineer
in product development groups, and my wife's experience working as an engineer
in process R&D groups.  (My wife's last group asked that people, even exempt
employees, take vacation time in 1/4 day increments whenever they are more than
2 hours later than the start of the work day at 8:15AM; they seemed to have no
problems with people working past 5 PM).

I'm glad you have the option of making up the time up on weekends.

BTW, my advice was intended as a shorthand for the recurring thread of opinion
that has run through this conference (since its inception?) that within Digital,
many work issues which may seem insurmountable can be successfully overcome by
finding a new group.  Changing groups is an accepted part of Digital culture,
and many here have held out the faith to others over the years that many onerous
policies are at worst local artifacts - that there is always a better job in the
company if you choose to look for it.  I regard this as a positive message, and
do not intend it to have the negative connotations of "your job: love it or
leave it".  If you've read this conference for a long time, you know what I'm
talking about; if not, the wisdom of the ages is ripe for plucking from
lower-numbered topics.
				/AHM

RE: .66

>                       -< Try it, you might like it.... >-
>
>    Ken why don't you try something?  Take four weeks of vacation (you must
>    have that much), pile the wife and kids into the old buggy, and just
>    wander the back roads of this country.  You might just find out what
>    you and your family are missing.  After that, if you still feel the
>    same way, I could understand.
    
Only if you promise to go at least 2 years without a vacation, to provide 
you the same experience with the other side that you are advocating for me.  
After that, if you still feel the same way, I could understand.  :-)

With the exception of the above paragraph (which is a joke, not a serious 
proposal), I don't tell people how much vacation time they should take, 
because I understand that people are different and have different needs for 
work and vacation time.  I respect their right to take the amount of vacation 
time they wish.  But for some strange reason, other people seem to feel it is 
reasonable to tell me how much vacation time *I* should take, as the author 
of .66 did, and as Digital management does on an almost monthly basis.  
I don't understand this.  Where is Valuing Differences when you need it :-)?

-- Ken Moreau

    It is probably not widely known, but nevertheless true that one valid
    business reason for requiring people to take a minimum amount of
    vacation each year is for financial control (auditing).
    
    Specifically, there are a number of cases (not necessarily at Digital)
    where employee scams have come to light only because the employee was
    on vacation (unable to take the routine steps to maintain the scam).
    
    Before you protest that the nature of your job offers no such
    opportunities, consider that it is much simpler and FAIRER to have such
    a policy apply to all employees.
    
    That being said, I like the feature of my previous employer's plan that
    allowed us to instruct, in advance, that any vacation time in excess of
    two or three weeks (?) be sold to the company with the money credited
    to the 401k (like SAVE) retirement account.  Seemed to meet company
    (the advance decision was timed for the budget cycle) and employee
    needs in a fully satisfactory way.
                     

    
    
      I think the major reason for the "Use it or lose it"  vacation
    policy is that vacation time shows up as some sort of financial
    liability (future obligation?) on the corporate balance sheet.
    
      In these "troubled times",  I wouldn't be surprised to see that
    employees as a group are saving their vacation time as a "savings 
    account" to be added to any potential severence pay.
    
      Forcing the employees to use vacation time bounds the maximum
    size of that line item to something manageable.
    
    
    					-al (Not a finance person.)
    
     

    Yeh, that's something I've started to do now.  I'm gonna run my
    vacation accummulation up to the max for when I get the axe (note
    I didn't say "if").  But after I max out, I'm also going to take
    every day I can lay my hands on.

    re: .a bunch back
    
    My vacation time is usually up and over-flowing.  I basically don't
    have the time to go on vacation, and if I did, who could afford to take
    the time off to pay for the vacation.  I have been at the top for about
    3 years or there abouts.  I usually take a day (or claim to) just so
    that I don't see the total number on my check staying constant.  I have
    finally decided to take a vacation.  I'm taking 4 weeks off, and I'm
    going to *LOVE* it.  I don't have to pay for it. 
    
    Paul
    
    p.s. Maybe someday they'll let us sell it back or better yet, pay us to
    	 be able to enjoy it.