Conference 7.286::digital

John;

I cant do anything but agree with you, IMHO if DEC wanted to do one thing
to save money it would be to can AMEX and let employees make their own
plans. Recently I watched on with horror as a fellow employee that works
in our group tried to make travel arrangements to Stockholm. It was
absolutely ludicrous. First off, AMEX told her that they didnt have a listing
of hotels in Stockholm, its not like we dont have a facility there. So she 
would have to find one for THEM so that THEY could book the
rooms. She actually called an 800 number of some other travel agency, asked
the clerk to recommend a hotel and then called AMEX back with her recommendation.
On top of that, AMEX then quoted her a price per room that was something like
$100 per night more than the quote that she got from the 800 number. Dont ask
me where AMEX got the rate from if they didnt have a listing to begin with.

Amazing!!!!!

- George

To be fair, I should add that our secretary here says that it depends
on who you talk to in AmEx.  Some can get you a cheap flight and
others can't.

    I recall reading somewhere within the past two years that *nobody*,
    including the airlines themselves can find "the most economical travel
    schedule" in a reasonable period of time.  As I recall, the writer did
    an experiment requesting the best deal between several pairs of cities
    from different agencies and airlines.  The responses varied by as much
    as 100% above the least cost found.
    
    Maybe the reason we get poor service is "state of the art" in computer
    scheduling of travel?
    
    Dick

So, let's write an decent airline reservation system.....

Re Amex, I have had reasonable success with them lately, but only after I
determined the exact flights that I wanted. 

q

    American Express is costing us millions.  I've done a lot of company
    travel and was told I had to go through American Express to book my
    reservations.  I kept noticing how expensive the tickets were, even
    though I was flexible on departure times and didn't care what airline
    I flew.
    
    When I reclocated from the East Coast to the West coast last Fall I
    thought the ticket price was extremely high (it was a one way ticket).  
    I called another travel agency to inquire about pricing.  She booked
    a round trip flight for much (hundreds) less than the one way that
    amex booked, yet it was the exact same flight.  I asked her if this 
    was a trick she had learned over the years and she said no, it's a well
    known fact that round trip tickets are usually much cheaper than one way. 
    
    There's no doubt in my mind that American Express is ripping us off.
                                                                        

    It's my observation that there is a high turnover rate amongst travel
    service representatives. Coupled with all the fare wars the airlines
    are waging it surprises me sometimes that anybody can quote any firm
    price for a ticket. I have got very good and very bad rates recently
    from AMEX. If you keep your ears open for the promotions and you
    understand roughly what the going rates are you can "direct" the
    representatives to the "right" answer. Then, of course, you have to do
    it all over again when that representative leaves and another one comes
    along!

    My feelings about American Express are the same as my feelings about
    DCU: If nobody patronized them,they'd go out of business and we'd all
    be better off!
    
    Ken

    I wonder if the problems with AMEX travel are related to the travel
    reservation system they bought from US awhile ago....  really they do
    their travel stuff on our gear!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I always call DELTA FF and see if I can get a lower rate, if so I use
    them - as for hotels, I see what the TA's can find and then double
    check, if I can get it cheaper, I do so.  Hurray for Motel '6' (only
    

Is there any way that we could use one of the online computer reservation
systems available to the public?  It seems that we'd be no worse off, given the
replies here.  I've never been able to prove it, but the fares I got with
American Express always seemed high compared to what I could get from a travel
agent.

At least we could check out the times and fares at our leisure before calling an
agent.

Paul

ONe of the problems with using an online system such as the service available
through COmpuserve (easy sabre) would be accountability. That, however, is
simply a matter of Software.

What would be nice would be a copy of the Online Airline Guide. We subscribe
to it for several of the DEC Libraries. I am sure we could do a deal on
getting it electronically at least...

q

    
    My last trip only cost 300% more than the minimum possible, however it
    was from an Airport 20 Miles closer!!
    
    Having installed Airline Reservation Systems in a previous life, there
    are some pretty horrendous rules in the fare structure, and it takes a
    pretty good travel agent to even bother about finding them out.
    
    Eg:-	You want to fly direct JFK to LAX, and there is a quoted 
    		price.. However, on the day you wish to travel, there is  a 
    		special offer from JFK to Dallas, which  is  real cheap.
    
    		The clerk creates a fare quote from New York-Dallas-LA
    		which can use the Special even although you go on a Direct.
    
    		This is an "imaginary" Stopover.
    
    		Perhaps Digital should implement a System where the
    		Employee gets a percentage of the difference between the 
    		quoted Amex Rate and what was actually paid as verified by
    		Expense Claim receipts.
    
    		Digital Wins, Employee Wins, Amex Loses
    
    		Just a Thought... 
    
    	N.

    I'm currently planning for some personal travel and decided to call
    Amex to see what kind of deal they could really do. From what I was
    told by one of their agents is that, for "group" travel (say 20 people
    are flying to Chicago for training at the same time), they could
    "negotiate" the block of 20 tickets with the various airlines to get a
    better rate. For an individual traveling (business or pleasure), they
    could not obtain rates better than ANY agent.
    
    Correct me if I'm wrong but Agents get paid a flat percentage (15%?) of
    the tickets sold giving them little incentive in a captive business
    situation to book the lowest fares. For my trip, I had scanned for
    lowest fare using the Official Airline Guide on Compuserve (I could
    have booked the flight online). My wife called the airline directly for
    rates and they quoted a higher fare. After she mentioned a specific
    fare I obtained from "the computer", they managed to confirm that this
    lower fair was in fact available ($558 round trip from BWI to Hawai).
    
    Independent Agents typically rely upon repeat business travelers in a
    competitive market so there's the incentive there to get you the lowest
    fare possible. Except for Group Travel, I don't see the wisdom in
    giving Amex a non-competitive arrangement for managing ALL of our
    travel.

This topic is right on.

I use Eaasy Sabre, available through Compuserve, and have saved hundreds.  If
the deal in an earlier reply (DEC saves, employee gets a %-age of the
homegrown-Amex delta...) ever goes into effect, I'll be able to retire!

But then I can't participate in the deal?!

Can't win.

Pete

    
    
      FWIW,  I remember hearing that DEC negotiated a further
    "kickback" (for lack of the appropriate word)  from AMEX,  
    and essentially gets a further price reduction equal to
    some percentage of AMEX's commission from airline ticket
    sales,  probably paid at the end of the year or something.
    
      That was the reason for attempting to force all travel
    to go through AMEX.
    
    
                                             -al

    I've had very good and very not-good experiences with AmEx. For a
    recent trip to Japan, I was quoted $2800 by AmEx; my manager found a
    local travel agent who booked the same flights, same days, same times
    for *$1200*. Guess which one we used?? When we later informed AmEx of
    the difference in fare, we got a reply back stating that we had
    requested an upgrade in class of service (which we didn't; our
    department uses coach class for *all* travel, including international),
    and basically waffling around about why the difference in fare. And it
    had taken me significant follow-up to get even the $2800 fare
    confirmed!
    
    On another trip, seven or eight managers did a six-day journey from
    Boston to London to Birmingham to Paris to Turin to Paris to Munich to
    London. One of the AmEx agents graciously offered to handle all the
    logistics, which were becoming a nightmare for four different
    secretaries.  All seemed to go well, the agent got us reduced fares by
    cleverly booking "excursion" fares between some cities and waitlisting
    people for lower classes of service on some segments of the trip. Only
    problem I heard about was that my manager was informed his waitlist had
    cleared, only to arrive at Turin and find he had *no* ticket back to
    Paris (they had cancelled his original reservation, and the waitlist
    had *not* cleared) - which necessitated some loud language on his part.
    
    As previous replies have noted, it's important to have a clear idea of
    how you want to get where you're going, *before* you call.

re: .13, 15 - commissions and "kickback"

The major point of negotiation between a travel service and a corporate
account is how much of the commission is rebated to the customer 
by the agency.  I had an uncle who ran a small travel agency that 
provided this service.  He reported to me that on a standard commission
of 10%, bigger companies expected up to 7% or so to be rebated, leaving
a 3% commission for the agency.  This only works for the really big
companies and agencies, those that can afford to bury their shared overhead
in a slice that small.
Yes, this is one reason DEC tries to enforce exclusive use of our contracted
services through AMEX.  But your best bet fare only has to beat the AMEX
quote by 5% or so to beat that aspect of  the deal.
There are likely also volume considerations, which might boost the commission
AMEX gets (for travel volumes over $x million), a portion of which would 
also come back to DEC, so maybe you have to beat the quote by 10 or 12%
for DEC to make out.  There are certainly enough 50%-200% horror stories
going around here to wash that aspect off the board.

And to join the AMEX bashing, complexity of the are fare system is no excuse
for the rigamarole we travelers get put through.  That's why we HAVE a travel
agency.

- tom]

For those of you who find that this isn't enough AMEX bashing, you can take a
look in DELNI::ON_THE_ROAD, where many of us travelers got so tired of the
horror stories we don't bother writing them up any more.

RE: AMEX using "our" (DEC supplied) stuff to do their evil work.

They don't.  By and large, they are on SABRE and the other airline-owned
systems.  Internal work may be handled by some DEC gear, but  the
retail/business travel offices use the airline systems to make our "lowest
price possible" reservations.

RE: Making your own reservations

For years I didn't even use the DEC required travel agency.  I used the one
that I trusted.  With the requirement from the gods that we use AMEX, now I do
my own research, call and make the reservations, then call AMEX and let them
ticket it.

FWIW, I've found AMEX to be particularly hopeless when you are VERY FLEXIBLE.
If you can fly on any of several different days, from or to several airports,
and are willing to include stopovers in any of several different places, then
AMEX generally short-circuits completely.  

K.

    Well, FWIW, I'll include my experience with AmEx.  This was back in
    1988 when I presented a paper at a couple of places.  I decided to
    bring my family with me.  They were on the same flights that I was with
    an additional trip for them (so they could visit with her parents a few 
    days).  The tickets were booked months in advance, one for me, two more 
    for the rest of my family.  My travel agent handled my family and 
    AmEx did mine.  It cost nearly as much for my tickets as for both of the 
    other family tickets, even though they rode more flights.
    
    I pointed this out to my CC.  They indicated two reasons for forcing me
    to go with AmEx.  The one was the kickback issue, though they had no
    numbers.  The second was something to do with getting a full refund if
    I didn't make the flight.  My family's tickets were not refundable.
    Even so, for the roughly 100% markup on ticket prices booked in advance
    for things that will mostly likely not be cancelled these seem to be
    silly reasons.  Also, considering that a paper that I wanted to publish
    in a conference of choice had to be nixed because it the conference was
    in Hawaii this year and air fare would be too much ...   
    Thanks a lot, AmEx.
    
    Steve
    

I had a rough time with AMEX� travel service (Envoy24 - their service for Gold
Card Members), not with travel fares, but with billing.  AMEX/Envoy24/United
concocted this truly bizzare billing scheme that took several months to 
straighten out when United booked my daughter at a child's fare (yes, they
exist) but Amex billed full fare for the whole family.  This is the only
time I've used AMEX and may be the only time, because...

DEC in Colorado Springs (and I, personally) use Guide Travel Services - a
Carlson Travel Network Company.  The AMEX branch here is simply too small to
deal with DEC's business.  The people at Guide are simply wonderful.  They'll
work with you (or your secretary) to get the "right" fare, not neccesarily
the cheapest.  They'll work to get the arrivals and departures as close as
you want.  They'll get discounts and upgrades because they know what hotels
and airlines are offering and have - pre-loaded - frequent traveller numbers
in their computers.

In all the travelling I do (between 8 and 16 trips/year for the last several
years), I have never had a ticket problem that I haven't induced.

Annecdotally, there's a story of a recent visitor to Colorado Springs from 
Valbonne.  There was a last minute change in plans, and AMEX said, the change
simply could not be done.  Air France, they claimed, refused.  This visitor
went to the guide office in CXN2 at my recommendation, explained the dilema,
and asked if the Guide person would help.  Sure, was the answer.  With a 
good deal of hard work and ingenuity, Guide changed the arrangements where 
AMEX refused.  Guide's answer? "Glad to have helped - it makes me feel good
when I can solve someone's problems."

Guide has even "bailed me out" when I've been stuck on delayed airplanes and
called my travel agent from the AirPhone!

That's what I call service.

If the company is looking to switch, I'd recommend CTN if the rest of the 
affiliates are as good as Guide.

BobW

�I keep writing AMES and then correcting it to AMEX - tell you something?

	It is, indeed, VERY frustrating not being able to get at airline
 information online oneself!

 Re: questions regarding 'overcharge' AMEX fare quotes, etc...

	Performance related questions may be sent to American Express's
 Customer Service desk via ALL-IN-1 mail at AMEX_CS @NRO.

	You might forward a copy to the DEC Travel Manager, Joyce Flinn @MSO,
 so that she is aware of the specifics of questionable performance and can
 forward identified problems to the relevant person for followup.

	I don't know if it's still being done, but ALL itinearies booked
 by the agency under contract used to be audited by an outside company, related
 neither to DEC nor to the agency, for lowest-fare-for-the-paramaters-requested
 (such as 'non-refundable ticket not desired'), as well as other quality 
 criteria. 

I had not heard of the corporate "kickback" mechanism for corporate travel
agreements.  However, considering the "management-by-numbers" system
used by Digital how much woud you like to bet that there is someone who
is being measured by the size of the "kickback"?  If Digital pays 40%
more for a ticket, the "kickback" is 40% greater so this person looks
even better.

    If you discover that Amex has "ripped you off" by not offering the
    lowest airfare, PLEASE document that fact and send a memo documenting
    this fact to Joyce Flinn.  When this happens even ONCE in any given
    month, there is a substantial "penalty" ($$$K) that Amex must pay
    Digital for that "error".
    
    Jon

RE:         <<< Note 1450.26 by SMEGIT::ARNOLD "Some assembly required" >>>
>
>    If you discover that Amex has "ripped you off" by not offering the
>    lowest airfare, PLEASE document that fact and send a memo documenting
>    this fact to Joyce Flinn.  When this happens even ONCE in any given
>    month, there is a substantial "penalty" ($$$K) that Amex must pay
>    Digital for that "error".
    
The problem is that not that they are not offering the lowest fare but
rather that unless you get the right AmEx person they are not very
clever at arranging flights at the lowest cost.  I'm sure that when I
get two one-way tickets that AmEx gave me the lowest price for them. 
They just not nearly as good as the travel agent we used to use at being
creative and getting good deals.

When I tell a travel agent that I want to leave from Newark and they
are hunting down flights from Kennedy (them marking them down as turned
down fares) then obviously something is wrong.  How can you find the
cheapest fare when you have not yet even narrowed down the starting
point?  (If this is being creative, I'd expect a travel agent to know
that it costs a lot more than $20 to get from most places in NJ to
Kennedy.  Probably there's a report out there that shows how AmEx could
have saved $NNNNN if all employees followed its advice.  Sure.)

Also, the old travel service we used had a toll free call.  American
Express is a long distance call.  I wonder how much money we waste
there.

	...the Southeast District AMEX account rep, they haven't
avoided the penalty one month since they got the contract!

	The SED EIS org is doing a big SI project for the Vacation
Booking people here in Atlanta, so I pointed the rep to this note
yesterday.  Even HE has been quoted a higher fare than he could get
from Delta, and he can complain pretty high up!  He's also going to 
get the Corporate Account Team in NY aware of this note (if John Miano
hasn't already! :>) ).

.27 has hit the nail on the head.  They just aren't creative!

They typically don't ask how flexible you are with your start/end dates.
They typically don't ask how flexible you are regarding origin/destination
airports.
They typically don't ask how flexible you are on flight times.  I usually
do get asked "morning or afternoon?" but that's it.

And they seem never to have grasped the concept that it can be right to ticket
you for a flight that you will never get on because the ticket price is cheaper
that way.  I betcha we've thrown away a million dollars this FY just in 
New Hampshire because of this one thing.

K.

Sine I raised the matter of the negotiation around the travel agencies'
commission, let me try to rebut some rhetoric.

It's not a "kickback."  It's a "rebate" or a "discount."
It's wide open, it's on the table as part of the negotiations between 
vendor and client.
It doesn't go to some person as a sweetheart deal.
If someone is measured on its size, then that's probably only a measure 
of how well that person negotiated the contract, not on the size of the 
rebate on a per-flight basis.

I say this because there's enought to complain about with AMEX.
There's no need to use inflamatory wording ("kickback") to distort
what can be reasonable dialog.

             "Do not first ascribe to malice 
     what can be adequately explained by incompetence."

- tom]

    re .27
    
    It's not the *traveler's* responsibility to be aware that two one-way
    tickets are more expensive than a round trip, or that [usually] flying
    the same carrier results in lower cost than switching carriers between
    legs/segments, or etc.  It's the *travel agent's* responsibility. 
    That's their business, and we have every right to expect them to know
    their business intimately.
    
    Perhaps the amount of the monthly "penalty" should be increased to
    encourage them to change their tactics, perhaps take a bit more time
    with each travel request to actually find out about passenger
    flexibility, travel dates, etc.  I'm probably not at liberty to
    disclose the actual monthly penalty amount, but it's a 6 digit number
    (with no decimal places), snd .28 is correct -- Amex has paid that
    penalty to Digital *every month* since Digital started using Amex. 
    Kinda makes you wonder how many airline tickets were sold at a
    higher-than-necessary price to make up for that penalty.  Every month.
    
    Jon

    
    Re: .31
    
    >It's not the *traveler's* responsibility to be aware that two one-way
    >tickets are more expensive than a round trip
    
    You're right, but it's *one* round trip ticket is cheaper than *one*
    one-way ticket.  My honey's son had to fly one way to Detroit last
    summer.  It was cheaper round-trip from Manchester, NH to Detroit than
    one-way Manchester to Detroit!  Just about anyone who does any flying
    at all knows this so it's for sure that AMEX knows it.
    
    Frankly AMEX is not very competitive all the way around.  I
    cancelled my AMEX card last year when they upped the annual fee
    by over 20% and just about no one wants to take it anymore anyway.
    I wonder what keeps them in business.
    
    Steve
    

Re:      <<< Note 1450.31 by TIGEMS::ARNOLD "Some assembly required" >>>

>    Perhaps the amount of the monthly "penalty" should be increased to
>    encourage them to change their tactics...
>
>    Kinda makes you wonder how many airline tickets were sold at a
>    higher-than-necessary price to make up for that penalty.  Every month.
    
I think you've hit the nail on the head!  It reminds me of the cable company 
putting in a new underground installation who cut through everyone's phone
cables because "it was less expensive to pay for repairs than to plan ahead". 

We need to make the repair cost more realistic...

-  David

re .31:

Is the amount of the penalty based on the amount of overcharge, or is it
a flat penalty if there's any overcharge?

re: Note 1450.27 by KYOA::MIANO "John - NY Retail Banking Resource Cntr" 

>When I tell a travel agent that I want to leave from Newark and they
>are hunting down flights from Kennedy (them marking them down as turned
>down fares) then obviously something is wrong...

I believed they are REQUIRED by their agreement with DEC to offer
'alternate airports' in certain cities (New York for example). 

You, of course, have the option of taking the best option from what they 
offer you.

It would certainly make the agent's job easier NOT to have to do this!

re: note 1450.29  by A1VAX::BARTH "Special K"                             

>And they seem never to have grasped the concept that it can be right to ticket
>you for a flight that you will never get on because the ticket price is cheaper
>that way.  

Actually, I think most of these agents know these techniques pretty well.
I suspect they have been asked to stop the pratice, unless specifically 
requested by the traveler.

I heard of one case where an employee, with such a ticket, arrived at the
ticket counter for their return flight (which appeared on their 'clever'
ticket as the second half of a connecting flight), only to be asked by the
gate agent, "How was your mornignt flight from Los Angeles?".  The traveler 
replied, "Oh, very good".  The gate agent said, "Oh, that's interesting, 
because the plane hasn't arrived yet!"

The traveler got socked, on-the-spot, with a big charge for a one-way ticket 
home.  I won't say which agency issued that ticket.

And I was told that a number of relatively unsophisticated travelers took 
these tickets direct to airlines to make changes...saying, "No, I didn't 
want that flight, but my travel agent said it was cheaper to write the 
ticket that way", and thus they alto got hit with SIGNIFICANT on-the-spot 
charges, and came back from their trips extremely irritated!  I believe this 
is the general reason why it's not a standard policy to use these techniques,
unless requested by a 'more sophisticated' traveler.

The savings CAN be significant...but I gues not every traveler wants to 
have to attend 'Playing Games With Airlines Tickets' school before taking 
their business trip.  Many people want to be able to COME HOME when their
job is done & they are ready.  They don't want a hassle at the airport,
with airline agents accusing them of 'trying to use an illegal ticket'.

    G'Day!
    
    I have not been following this conference for the past 5-6 months.  I
    am a member of the AMEX Corp Account Team and did receive (from the
    Atlanta Account Manager) an extract of the first 25 entries in this
    topic just this AM.  
    
    Rest assured that the Corporation is well aware of the shortcomings
    of AMEX and we are very aggressive with AMEX in correcting problems
    such as have been pointed out here.
    
    Re: .9, None of the problems reported here can be attributed to Digital
    systems or equipment.  As .18 points out, the reservations are made
    using one or more of the airline Computer Reservation Systems (CRS) on
    CRS terminals provided 'free' by the airline whose services are being
    bought.  Digital's only presence in AMEX's travel reservation, booking,
    etc. is in Atlanta on the Wholesale (Tour) or Vacation System Program
    -- and this is NOT used for the type of travel arrangements mentioned
    in this note.
    
    The terms and conditions of our contract with AMEX for travel services
    calls for least cost faring guarantees for some 90 or so percent of the
    travel booked for us.  There is also a provision for specific
    management reporting.  As I understand it, any penalties which have
    been levied against AMEX have been for not delivering reports as
    required.  When you consider how IBM has crudded-up AMEX's IS and
    multiple data bases, it's pretty easy to see why they cannot deliver
    the reports we need to manage our T&E business the way we would like.
    
    For the least cost faring stipulation, this is extremely difficult to
    do -- especially with the manual system AMEX uses to try to live up to
    the requirement.  As noted, the reservation is booked using a CRS, such
    as American Airlines SABRE.  The Agent tries his or her best to find
    the least cost fare.  Since AMEX measures their people on numbers of
    transactions processed per month, none can spend more than x number of
    minutes before going on to the next call.  Therefore there is a 
    supervisor or QC position for reviewing a sample -- presumably a
    large sample -- of the work done for both quality and for LCF.  
    
    I suspect that LCF gets less than full attention -- and part of the
    reason is that most travel agencies which 'offer' LCF know that very
    seldom with the customer cross-check their work.  The suggestion made
    in one of the responses that specific issues should be shared with
    Joyce Flinn is a good one.  Joyce and her management have our best
    interests at heart, but they cannot police everything.  The more
    specifics they have in hand at their frequent, periodic meetings with
    AMEX the better our case and the better service we are going to get.
    
    Thanks for the input!  I have been looking for opportunities to re-
    initiate a 'Travel Management System' program at AMEX or elsewhere
    for some time now.  At AMEX we had done a functional spec for a 
    TMS component -- a 'Travel Front End' nearly three years ago.  AMEX
    gave our spec to IBM and IBM has been struggling to deliver on it 
    for about two years, but with little success.  Your input may be
    what it takes to stoke the fires, take a few shots at Big Blew and
    the Big Blew Bigots (B^3) who people the IS area at AMEX, and perhaps
    win some business over there.
    
    BTW, our TFE used an AI approach to LCF -- we didn't share that part
    with them per se, so IBM has used their typical brute force computing
    approach to do LCF (major critical success factor on the TFE) and
    even with one heluva lot of MIPS it is expensive, time-consuming, and
    has too many crazy variables to be reliable.  But our approach...ahh,
    that's another story!
    
    Regards, Bill
    
    

>NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085"  4 lines   2-MAY-1991 10:40
>re .31:
>
>Is the amount of the penalty based on the amount of overcharge, or is it
>a flat penalty if there's any overcharge?

1) I've changed the title of the base note because on reflection
the original title was not constructive.

2) RE: .? I think that rebate is actually what people had in mind when 
using "kickback" in quotes.

3) People in the New York office tell me that when they used the American 
Express in the ground floor of the old AWO office everything was fine.
It's just the place in MA that seems screwed up.

4) RE: .37 How did we happen to get the one with the screwed up system?

5) If we are funneling all our [US] travel through AmEx you'd think we
could get better service.

	A) Telling us they are too busy and to call back later.
	B) Rushing through calls
	C) Getting seats screwed up (You'd think they'd know that B&E are
	aisle middle seats and that F is on the right side.)

	... but then again, this rep never is any good at setting
the price high enough!  :>)  :>)  :>)

	Might as well 'fess up to extracting those 25 notes and
sending them to our project team (no names, just text!!) yesterday.
Glad to hear something is stirring, anyway!

    RE: .39
    
    John, I think the problem is New Jersey -- not far from KYO, in fact!
    
    I don't know about Digital's travel specifically, but I do know that a
    couple of years ago they left Digital facilities in the GMA.  Their
    Travel VP, with whom I was working on the TFE and other projects, told me
    that AMEX was looking toward 'economy of scale' operations including 
    building of large service centers to handle corporate travel (about
    50% of their travel business is corp, the remainder is individual
    agencies owned by AMEX and independent franchisees).  The consolidation
    for most of the East Coast is in Piscataway -- like I said, not far
    from KYO.  I don't know for certain if DEC travel is handled from there
    (reservations) or not.  I believe the main purpose of the local 
    offices (e.g., downtown Manhattan) is to print and messenger tickets
    to the customer offices, such as 2 Penn.
    
    How did we get the screwed-up one?  Well, just do what we all do in
    NJ -- blame it on Florio!
    
    Cheers, Bill
                                            

    Re .36:
    
    I would take that story with a grain of salt.  I would believe an agent
    might have commented on a passenger not taking one leg of the flight,
    but I would want to see some evidence of a larger fare being imposed. 
    The airline cannot claim they have lost anything because the passenger
    did not take one leg of the flight, so they have no grounds for
    claiming a breach of contract and imposing a higher fare.  If they
    tried it with me, they would be in court.
    
    
    				-- edp

    
    
      The thing they _can_  do is to cancel your entire flight if you 
    fail to show up for the first leg.
    
    
                                                 -al
    

>                     <<< Note 1450.37 by TOOHOT::HUNZEKER >>>
>                     -< From The AMEX Corp Account Team... >-
>...
>    Since AMEX measures their people on numbers of
>    transactions processed per month, none can spend more than x number of
>    minutes before going on to the next call.

Is this metric part of our contract with AMEX?
If not, it should be.  If we want to be able to take the time with an agent
to investigate alternatives (days, times, stopovers, etc.), we need to
remove the burden on the agent to that end.
And yes, this means we might have to pay for it, but that's got to be 
a good deal.  At a dollar or two per transaction (10 extra minutes
of clerk time at, what, $10-$12 per hour?), we apparently can save
tens to hundreds of dollars per transaction.

- tom]

Since the penalty for overcharging is flat, perhaps it's to AMEX's advantage
to pay the penalty and make up for it with the higher commissions and reduced
labor requirements.

re NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085"  3 lines   3-MAY-1991 10:20
>Since the penalty for overcharging is flat, perhaps it's to AMEX's advantage
>to pay the penalty and make up for it with the higher commissions and reduced
>labor requirements.
    
    Based on the fact that Amex has not yet missed a single month of
    penalty payments since Digital started using Amex, this certainly
    appears to be their philosophy.
    
    I also wonder about convenience.  Their 800 number is virtually
    worthless.  ("Emergency hotline, please hold...")  And lately over the
    past 2-3 weeks, every time I call the local office, I have not yet been
    able to avoid holding for at least 11 minutes (shortest time yet --
    longest = 23 minutes) while listening to George Winston and that
    recording "All agents are busy, please continue to hold..."  If Digital
    is going to get screwed in this process, the least they could do is to
    answer the phones promptly!
    
    Jon

    The falacy I see in all of this "make it up in the end" with penalty
    payments is that it has a negative effect on Account based P&L. An
    account with a large travel budget appears to be forced to use AMEX
    independent of its cost to that account.
    
    Isn't this in opposition to our philosophy of breaking up into smaller
    business units with responsibility to manage its own costs and profits?

>    I would take that story with a grain of salt.  I would believe an agent
>    might have commented on a passenger not taking one leg of the flight,
>    but I would want to see some evidence of a larger fare being imposed. 
>    The airline cannot claim they have lost anything because the passenger
>    did not take one leg of the flight, so they have no grounds for
>    claiming a breach of contract and imposing a higher fare.  If they
>    tried it with me, they would be in court.

And you would lose. I suggest you read the small print sometime...

Gavin

    
    Problem is wider than US.
    
    I was in the travel read for about 20 years before joing DEC. Pretty
    familiar with CRS/etc. Here in the UK the individual Amex staff are
    friendly & helpful, but the rates they quote are very poor.
    
    I travel in Europe most weeks, on coach. I can do a private deal with a
    local agent, & get all my travel on business class, for less cost than
    DEC pay Amex. The only thing that saves Amex is the inability of DEC to
    cope with me doing my own thing to save money.
    
    I did a London / Rio de Janeiro / Sau Paulo/ Buenos Aires/ London trip
    last year. Got an outside quote which was over $1000 cheaper than that
    charged by Amex -- & that was after I confronted them & caused them to
    be more innovative about multi-ticketing.
    
    The irony was that in BUE my presentation was delayed & I missed the
    once-weekly aircraft home. The Amex response was that I should walk a
    mile to the airline's office, because I could sort it out easier
    myself! Some service .......
    
    BTW, in Europe the commission sharing is normal for corporate accounts,
    & is known as split commission. I'd be amazed if the return we get
    exceeds the mark-up, & the wasted man-hours in doing 75% of the job
    ourselves just to make sure we don't get caught.
    
    
    Colin
    

    Re .48:
    
    I've read the small print.  I'll see your "I suggest you read the small
    print" and raise you "I suggest you read the entire contract and the
    relevant federal regulations".  Please make your point without alluding
    to unstated and undescribed material.
    
    
    				-- edp

>    I've read the small print.  I'll see your "I suggest you read the small
>    print" and raise you "I suggest you read the entire contract and the
>    relevant federal regulations".  Please make your point without alluding
>    to unstated and undescribed material.

From page 2 of a ticket in front me:

    "... Failure to occupy space that has been reserved for you on a flight 
     may result in the cancellation of onward or return reservations that have
     ben made for you."

From page 4:

    "... carriage and other services performed by the carrier are subject to:
     (I) provisions contained in this ticket, (II) applicable tariffs, (III)
     carrier's conditions of carriage and related regulations which are made
     part hereof (and are available on application at the offices of carrier),
     except in transportation between a place in the United States or Canada 
     and any place outside thereof to which tariffs in force in those countries
     apply."

From page 6:

     "... Carrier may refuse transportation if applicable fare has not been 
      paid."

So, using a cheaper ticket from point A to point C via point B, without using 
the portion from point A to B can result in your whole reservation being
cancelled. The bit on page 6 can result in you being asked to pay the full fare
on the day of travel, since it's impossible to get a cheapie at that time.

I suggest you also look at the various airlines' regulations and conditions of
carriage and you'll see these points reinforced.

Gavin

    Re .51:
    
    I agree the airline can cancel onward reservations if you fail to
    occupy space on an earlier flight.  This can be handled simply by
    reconfirming the later flight(s).  In particular, if you call to
    confirm and the airline acknowledges, that is evidence they have agreed
    to provide the later flight(s) even though you do not occupy space on
    the earlier flight.
    
    The bit about applicable fare would allow the airline to refuse
    transportion if somebody denied the charge on their credit card bill,
    but if you've got a ticket from A to B to C and you've paid for it,
    then you've paid the applicable fare.  How could the airline maintain
    that the price printed on the ticket according to their specifications
    is not the fare that applies to that ticket?
    
    
    				-- edp

>    The bit about applicable fare would allow the airline to refuse
>    transportion if somebody denied the charge on their credit card bill,
>    but if you've got a ticket from A to B to C and you've paid for it,
>    then you've paid the applicable fare.  How could the airline maintain
>    that the price printed on the ticket according to their specifications
>    is not the fare that applies to that ticket?
    
Unless I've lost the thread of this discussion, we're talking about buying a
ticket A-B-C with the intention of using only the B-C portion, throwing away
the A-B segment, because it's cheaper than buying a B-C ticket. Under those
circumstances you have *not* paid the applicable fare from B-C, even though
B-C is part of the total routing A-B-C. This situation occurs mostly when the 
airline is trying to encourage feeder traffic from "lesser" airports or in
connection with promotions.

Failure to use the A-B segment invalidates the ticket.

Just be thankful the airlines merely charge the full fare; they could have a
case for fraud against you.

Of course, they could settle the whole thing by establishing a more sensible
fare structure, but that's another cans of worms!

Gavin

 Software - Agents rankle airlines with fare-checking programs
	{The Wall Street Journal, 20-May-91, p. B1}
   At lunchtime, recently, Ken Chapman booked at $932 round-trip ticket from
 Los Angeles to New York through his travel agency. But while he slept that
 night, a new computer program at the agency searched for a better deal. The
 program, developed by Associated Travel agency of Santa Ana, Calif., scans
 airline reservation systems much faster than agents normally can. In Mr.
 Chapman's case, it searched for 16 hours until a new fare on the same flight
 became available at 4 a.m. Now Mr. Chapman is going on his business trip for
 $578. The computer programs strike at the very heart of airlines' pricing
 systems. Airlines currently change the availability of fares by the minute to
 control the number of bargains they sell; when a lot of travelers call for low
 fares, for example, the airlines reduce the number of cheap seats available,
 which forces fliers to pay more. On some days, they make as many as 200,000
 changes, and even the best agents can't keep up with all of them.


<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2327     Tuesday 21-May-1991   <><><><><><><><>

To give a little update...I received a very reasonable rebuttal of my
claims in .0 from American Express today.  To summarize their 
explanation for the discrepancy is that the Continental fare was not
actually available at that time as the Continental rep had claimed and
the declined fair was not from JFK as I had claimed but actually through
Washington.

And my trip last week was handled with no problems, even no middle seats
to be changed.  I have a feeling that over time things are going to get
better.

Other than one problem.... AMEX Travel routinely saves me 45% when flying
up and down the west coast on United....

These tickets are also unrestricted coach so it doesn't matter if I change
flights.

    re .57
    
    These deals have been worked out by Digital Corporate Travel and the
    vendor (ie, United) for certain routes.  I'm sure that you could get
    the same rates if you were to book the flights yourself, as long as you
    could be positively identified as a Digit.
    
    Be aware that for "unrestricted coach" tickets, yes, you can change
    flights ON THE SAME CARRIER.  But the airline will expect some major
    silver to cross its palm if you try to change carriers.
    
    Jon

    I am unhappy with the lack of service from amex, I can never get
    through to these people without waiting for the next available
    agent. The prices for flights are the same as a local travel agent
    we used for years. When I complained to their supervisor, she told
    me they had a headcount issue, and if more Digital people complained
    it would help her case for more people.Meanwhile I keep getting
    center seats, without the option to take another flight.
    
    I am one unhappy camper.

Re <<< Note 1450.27 by KYOA::MIANO "John - NY Retail Banking Resource Cntr" >>>:

>... I'd expect a travel agent to know that it costs a lot more than $20 to get
>from most places in NJ to Kennedy.

In that case, I bring you good news:

"
Employee Expense Voucher
Week Ending: 2/17/90
Purpose of Trip: Technical Meetings with SD/Scicon, plc. [Camberley, UK]
...
Miscellaneous Expense
Description			$ Amount
JFK Express			7.50
PATH: NY/Hoboken		1.00
Conrail: Hoboken/Madison	8.20
Telephone			0.20
"

The total of the above is $16.90, which is certainly less than $20.  For GMA
readers, Madison is in the NJ suburbs about as far from JFK as, Marlboro is from
Logan airport in Boston.

I actually could have saved a substantial portion of that $16.90 - I later found
out that there is regular (local) subway service to JFK for a lot less than that
$7.50 "Train to the Plane" ticket.  So, I could have gotten a leisurely tour of
every subway station in Brooklyn, instead of zooming past the muggers at warp
speed, *and* saved money to boot! Also, there was a slight penalty for the $8.20
train ticket since I purchased it on the train instead of in the station (I was
unwilling to watch the the train depart as I stood on the ticket line).

So, I certainly could have could have afforded a taxi at the far end, instead of
having in-laws pick me up at the train station.  (This still came out cheaper
than the standard van from Logan to ZK, even if I had bothered to include the
$0.225/mile).  I could have afforded train or bus fare that would have taken me
a lot further than Madison for $20.


Whether Digital employees should take public transit if it means that they have
access to cheaper airfare at a more distant airport is not for me to say.
				/AHM

RE:              <<< Note 1450.60 by TLE::AMARTIN "Alan H. Martin" >>>

>In that case, I bring you good news:
...
>Miscellaneous Expense
>Description			$ Amount
>JFK Express			7.50
>PATH: NY/Hoboken		1.00
>Conrail: Hoboken/Madison	8.20
>Telephone			0.20

Now for a retorical question:  How much would it cost to get back to the
airport from Madison?

Now for another retorical question:   Assuming an internal cost of
$80/hr for travel time, how much does this cost for a round trip
from Madison to JFK (Hint: commute time from Madison to downtown NYC is
approximately 1.0 to 1.5 hours)?

For still another one:  Using the same cost assumption as in the
previous questions and standard car mileage costs what is the difference
in cost to Digital for driving round trip from Madison to Newark Airport
(Hint: Driving time 20' distance 15 Miles) vs. taking the train to JFK:

:-)