Conference 7.286::digital

	... will a system manager of a node be willing to bet THEIR badge
that said retiree won't take a "second career" doing something that puts 
DEC's security at risk if they get some juicy info off the net?

	Just thinking out loud!

>	... will a system manager of a node be willing to bet THEIR badge
>that said retiree won't take a "second career" doing something that puts 
>DEC's security at risk if they get some juicy info off the net?

I don't see the connection.  The same could be said about ACTIVE employees,
not just RETIRED ones.

If it were up to me, retired employees would be entitled to continue NOTING
as long as they're interested.

-steve-

I don't understand.

A DEC badge with "RETIRED" on it?

Does this mean that even though he is no longer an employee, he is still
authorized to enter any DEC facility?

/john

    
    	Why not?
    
    	He didn't get fired, nor did he leave to pursue a career with
    	the competition.
    
    							GTI
    

         There are a lot of former DIGTIAL employees who have left without
    getting fired or pursuing careers with competitors, yet they have no
    badges or access to the network.  These are not sufficient qualifiers.
    
                                       Greg

    It's my understanding that a retired employee is no longer bound by his
    or her employee agreement.  A retired employee is no longer an
    employee.
    
    How is it in the interest of Digital Equipment Corporation to grant
    access to its facilities either physically or electronically to such
    persons?
    
    Maybe a dedicated non-Easynet system would be a good gesture, running a
    Notes server of course.

>    Maybe a dedicated non-Easynet system would be a good gesture, running a
>    Notes server of course.
    
    But that would defeat the purpose of keeping in touch with those who
    are still employees, because such a system cannot talk to Easynet
    systems and the employees on them.
    
    I agree with the observation that a retiree is no longer an employee,
    and only employees (or virtual employees pro tem, aka contractors, if
    we still have those) have legitimate access to Easynet and conferences
    on the net.
    
    As for a DEC badge with "RETIRED" on it, if such a thing exists, it
    must not be a valid DEC badge anymore.  At most it would be a souvenir,
    like a non-picture badge with a blue border.  But my understanding is
    they take away your badge when you terminate your employment. 
    
    --Simon
    

There are plenty of public-access conferencing systems around, many of which
have electronic mail connections to the EasyNet, and some of which have VAX
Notes (but no VAX Notes connection with the Enet).

One of those, specializing in DEC-oriented discussions, is DECUServe.

DECUServe currently has an annual fee of $60 for unlimited use (you pay the
LD rates to Marlboro, which from Atlanta would be around $11/hour in the
evening, $8/hour late night and weekends, less with discount calling plans).
The annual fee _might_ be eliminated after 1 July 1991, but this is not yet
certain.

DECUServe has a UUCP connection, soon to be upgraded to an Internet connection;
this would make it possible for the retiree mentioned in .0 to send mail to and
receive mail from anyone on the Enet.  The conferences on DECUServe would allow
the retiree to continue to keep abreast of public developments at Digital, as
seen by some of our most vocal customers.

/john

    The comments in .1 are good ones; I know of at least two fairly senior
    managers that now work for Digital after having officially retired from
    that typewriter company, in marketing areas.
    
    But the whole discussion doesn't seem to make sense.  The very FIRST
    thing that a retiree needs to access notesfile on the network is a
    valid account on a machine somewhere that is connected to the net.  If
    the retiree gets that problem resolved, the question of notesfile
    access is a moot point, isn't it?
    
    Jon

    RE:  <<< Note 1305.9 by SMEGIT::ARNOLD "A lifeless planet & me with no beer" >>>

    >But the whole discussion doesn't seem to make sense.  The very FIRST
    >thing that a retiree needs to access notesfile on the network is a
    >valid account on a machine somewhere that is connected to the net.  If
    >the retiree gets that problem resolved, the question of notesfile
    >access is a moot point, isn't it?
    
         I suspect this is due to the basenoter's reference to the retiree
    needing "...an account on NOTES", which is of course a misconception.
    I'm sure most of the replies assumed that basenoter simply stated the 
    problem incorrectly, but realized that the real need was an account on
    a network-connected node which has the NOTES utility running.
    
                                     Greg

    
    
    
    	Just to confirm the fact that RETIRED badges exist. A friend of
    mine has such a badge and she has access to any DIGITAL facility she
    wants access to. And she even has an account so that she may access
    the NET. Don't ask me details because I don't know specifics. 
    
    
    b

    Here in Puerto Rico, retiree badges have a yellow background instead of
    blue.  Retirees may be members of DCU.  DCU offices are not accessible
    without either a badge or an escort.  Sometimes they get invited to
    social functions.  I know of none here with network accounts.
    
    Just the (local) facts,
    
    Dick

    I went thru the pre-retiree program. You new badge is good
    and you can even go to the annual outings etc.
    
    Many retirees are still active in Digital on a volunteer -
    unpaid basis. We had a board of 7 retirees come in and
    explain to us what lies ahead for people retiring.
    
    They also drop in and visit their former peers at lunch
    time etc. Once a good DECee always a good DECee.
    
    Lloyd

    
    My mother retired from Digital in 1982. She got a gold retiree badge.
    Part of the reason she has the badge, other than as a souvenir is to
    remember the number. A retired employee still has medical benefits
    from Digital and badge number is required on the forms.
    
    Laurie
    

	There are some people I know who I would trust with an Enet account
	after retiring. A smaller number I would not. I also know a few people
	I'd trust with an Enet account even if they went to work for someone
	else. I wouldn't give them an account though as it's just too much
	temptation. 

	I know someone who left DEC to go to work for "the compitition" who
	managed to keep his badge for several years (until he saw the light
	and came back to DEC). He never once used for anything although he
	could easily have used it to get into several facilities in his
	area.

				Alfred

    RE:  <<< Note 1305.12 by TROPIC::BELDIN "Pull us together, not apart" >>>
    
    >Here in Puerto Rico, retiree badges have a yellow background instead of
    >blue.
    
         Strange.  Our badges are grey.  Who gets blue?
    
                                        Greg

            <<< HUMANE::HUMANE$DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 1305.17              Retiree Connection to Notes?                  17 of 17
CSCOAC::ELDRIDGE_B                                   20 lines  10-DEC-1990 09:33
                             -< Retire with Honor >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wow,  I sure found a good subject.  First, the badges we have in the
    South are Gray and White.  the Retired badge is the same as active
    employees except it has Retired down one side.
    
    He does have all the rights indicated in the notes before this one.
    
    My real concern is that this employee is a Model Railroader and Ham
    Radio Operator.  He was very active in these notes.  Building quite a
    few friends, it would seem, if he was an Bonified retired employee, that
    he should be allowed to keep up with his DEC friends.
    
    Retiring from a company should be done with Honor, not mis-trust.  As a
    Military Retiree maybe I see it differently.
    
    Regards
    
    
    Bob
    
    

    A retiree is entitled, with his/her badge, to enter a DEC facility to 
visit people by appt, such as a previous manager or personnel, or to attend 
join former collegues for lunch in the cafeteria. They are not free to 
wander the entire building at will.

    The badge, at least in the 3M area (Mass/NH) is grey border with blue 
background behind the person's head. The retiree badge is gold border 
instead of grey and says retiree down the side. Not sure of the color of 
the picture background.

    Other things the retiree is able to do/attend is outing such as Canobie 
lake here in New England, get the annual frozen turkey (Badge needed for 
both) and attend meetings of employee interest groups.

    As far as the system manager being on the line, it is more likely the 
manager of the retiree, he/she has to sign the account form for the data 
center to continue the account for the individual. I have heard of 
retireees maintaining an account and I have heard of retirees not being 
allowed the account. I personally know the retiree in the case that started 
this discussion, and would not have a problem with his continuing an 
account on the system. Your mileage may vary, as they say!

    Vic H

RE: .17

Military retirees do not have access to all of the military facilities that
those on active duty (or even reservists) do.

*I* would never give an account to a retiree on any system that I managed,
simply based on that person's former association with DEC.  That's not a matter
of distrust or lack of respect and honor.  It is simply good business security.

--PSW

For those who are concerned about the legal aspect, is it possible for DEC
to create a special "agreement form" for retirees similar to that for
employees? Retirees would agree to prohibitions against disclosure of
proprietary information to outsiders and conflict of interest in any
employment. They would in turn be allowed to have system accounts and to
borrow terminals and modems for home use. Individual system managers could
restrict access to their accounts to certain days and hours if appropriate
(for instance, letting the retiree-Noter on the system during times when
the system isn't heavily used).

It seems there should be a simple and sensible way to be decent to the
retirees and still protect DEC's legal interests.

RE: .20

It would be possible to set up some such arrangement, but to the best of my
knowledge, that isn't the case.

--PSW

    	What's the big deal?  If the ex-manager of the retiree really
    	trusts and believe that the person deserves an account, then the
    	manager can have some bogus account created for him and the manager
    	can give the retiree the password and dial-in information so
    	that he can use it.
    
    	Or the manager can simply give his account and password to the
    	retiree to let him use.  Share the account with him.
    
    	Forget about "policy"  --  Just talk to Grace Hopper if you 
    	get in trouble for it.  remember, it is always easier to ask
    	forgiveness than to get permission.
    
    	If your employee is worth the risk, just let him in the back door.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    re -1.  If any manager working for me did that, he'd be "retired"
    also about 15 minutes after I found out.
    

    If we allow other than active employees who have a business NEED (this
    is a business, not a social club for retirees) to access this network, I
    would think the auditors of this company would have serious concerns
    about our corporate/network security policies.
    
    We have no social obligations to anyone.  

re: .23
  <<	What's the big deal?

Well, for starters it's explicitly against company security policy. Does YOUR
definition of "do the right thing" include "Well, Security's irrelevant and my
judgement of who can be trusted is more important?"

I used te work in the field of "Computer Security" and came up with the phrase
"Your level of security depends on your level of paranoia". (I also recall
a poster I saw that said "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're
NOT out to get you.")  But the bottom line is that too many people trust their
judgement in this area.  The vast majority of computer crimes involve some 
aspect of someone being lax with security because they "trusted" someone else.

There are a lot of places where trust is important, and we couldn't succeed,
either as a company or a society, without trust.  But  [flame on]   knowingly
breaking company policy isn't one of those places!!!! [flame off]

I don't belive "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" means
to ignore the rules.

	/Marvin

    	Re last few:

    	I guess you missed the title about being sarcastic...

    	But I guess paranoia is a prerequisite for being a system manager.
    
    	At least my entry got you thinking!
    
    	Joe Oppelt

>Well, for starters it's explicitly against company security policy. Does YOUR
>definition of "do the right thing" include "Well, Security's irrelevant and my
>judgement of who can be trusted is more important?"
    
    Forget for a minute that this topic is about retirees.  Assume we are
    talking about normal business decisions.
    
    This would fit my definition.
    
    Computer systems are here to support my business.  My business is not
    here to support the computer systems.  Two things are apparent - the
    company needs to trust me to do the right thing.  First, I am empowered 
    to do an incredible amount of damage to the company in many ways. It makes 
    no sense to draw some special line at computer systems. Second, I am 
    closer to the business realities than any policy formulator who may
    have never met a customer, let alone know what's required to service
    one.
    
    No, the people whose collective asses are on the line to make the
    business run ARE the ones who should be responsible for these
    decisions.
    
    Al
    
    

    If upon retirement someone has the option of keeping their employee
    agreement in effect, i.e., can't work for someone else in the smae
    field, can't disclose information, etc. then I don't see what the big
    deal is. Out here in the field, there are SO FEW people who make it to
    retirement at DEC that anyone who sticks with DEC until retirement
    _should_ be given the opportunity to keep up with their work friends and
    to contribute to their areas of interest in DEC.

    Maybe someone has some good ideas that now, upon retirement, they'd like
    to pursue -- after all it's their _own_ time now. Anyone who's been at
    DEC long enough to retire certainly is going to have a lot of ideas
    about how things could be improved.

    Personally, I've never liked the "gold watch" method of retirement.
    How about just another category of [not quite retired] employee?

    /Peters

     And you think when Ken retires, he's _never_ going to see an internal
     memo again? Please!!!

>     And you think when Ken retires, he's _never_ going to see an internal
>     memo again? Please!!!

        When he retires, and is no longer an active employee, he is
        likely to still be a member of the board of directors.

        And even if he isn't, he will have no problem seeing internal
        memos--just read the Boston Globe or Digital Review.  Lots of
        publications seem to have easy access to internal memos.

        					B.J.

    I can relate to the need of the retiree in this issue. It is a huge
    loss of contact with friends etc when someone retires.I can
    see how a person would want to stay in touch, read Livewire etc.
    The problem is that the network and all the systems on it are not
    secure to allow "Guests".
    
    An old m-vax with a few modems on it, that is "Batch" accessed on
    a daily basis, might be all that is needed?.
    
    Any better ideas out there?.
    
    Eric H.
                               

    Do you really think Ken will ever retire?  He seems to thrive on
    working!

    I'm revisiting this topic because while at the Credit Union I ran into
    a friend of mine who took the package and retired early.  Yes he has a
    RETIRED badge which gets him into the building.  (The background for
    the picture, i.e. the backdrop which frames the head in the picture, is
    yellow, or gold or whatever, instead of light blue.)
    
    I realize now that there are certain company benefits that retirees are
    entitled to.  But as a manager who has signed a few termination forms,
    I know what I signed off on, including the termination of computer
    system accounts.  Unless somebody in the company takes steps to keep
    the employee agreement in force even after retirement, and to amend
    security policies to take retirees into account, I have to disagree
    respectfully with those who hold that "doing the right thing" includes
    bending the rules in this case.
    
    If the auditors see this discussion here, they are liable to tighten up
    even more.
    
    In view of a recent memo that was circulated (and then retracted, as I
    was given to understand) this whole discussion is academic anyway.  If
    retirees have business need for access to the network, they wouldn't be
    retired.  If the retiree's need for access is hobby notes files...
    What non-business related notes files?  The company has enough trouble
    with employees "wasting" time and resources on notes files, why even
    consider retirees in that context?
    
    --Simon
    
    P.S. Lest I be misunderstood, personally I'm as much for employee
    interest noting as the next person.  The problem with the motto "do the
    right thing" is that it is highly dependent on subjective judgment.

re Note 1305.34 by ABSZK::SZETO:

> The problem with the motto "do the right thing" is that it is highly
> dependent on subjective judgment.

        Of course -- that is one of the things that makes (or should
        make) Digital a different kind of place to work.  If "do the
        right thing" merely means follow the established policies and
        procedures, then it is essentially meaningless.

        Bob

    <2� weeks later>
    
    It is worth "noting" that retirees could in theory continue to
    contribute to the compnay's success, on a voluntary basis, if they
    were permitted access to the enet.
    
    One case comes to mind is Mr. H----- who is now retired.  DEC could
    still benefit from his knowledge and wisdom ("...the problem with the
    frobitzchannel is that it can't switch potchlings in real-time, so
    IBMs nobisfot will give them an advantage in COBOL benchmarks...").
    Sad that the only DECcie with such a storehouse of knowledge can 
    no longer be of help to us, even if he wanted to!
    
    As PSW noted, there is no Retiree Agreement to cover this situation,
    but that may be due more to DECdemographics than deliberate policy.
    I hope the policy is changed someday, when the company's profitability
    becomes more important than Proper Rulemaking.
    
      John