Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Well, it is that time of year. Ask your supervisor for best results.
    
    /prc

Well, for what its worth, my group is starting the planning now.
Thats "planning", now implementation, thats another story...

- George

    
    My group does lots of "planning".  Yup, salary "planning" is in
    progress.  If and when implemented, big if.  I'm told the plan
    will bring salaries in line with the rest of the industry, as
    we are 6% below.
    
    Myself, I'd be happy being compensated for my specialty to that which
    my peers are being compensated.  

    RE: FRAGLE::CONNELLY  6% under the industry-I am not doubting this at
    all, can you cite where you obtained tis info from.  Thanks.
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    	I think we are considered "behind the industry" only in software
    engineering positions...not in all positions. So the spend number for
    software engineering is rumored to be a couple of percentage points
    higher than the corporate spend number.

    For years Digital has participated in pay comparison efforts with other
    companies. I've never seen one of these reports but managers have for
    years been telling me that these all show Digital as being competitive.
    Once I even believed them. :-) Recently my manager told me that the
    latest comparison showed that Digital, at least for s/w engineers, had
    fallen below the average and that for this reason salary planning was
    considered very important right now. I believe a) that we must be
    pretty far below average for management to admit it and b) the company is
    probably concerned that once the economy picks up and jobs are easier
    to come by they'll lose people in droves if the pay rates don't keep
    up. I'd be worried to.

    		Alfred

    After two years of no pay raises for most of us in software
    engineering, I don't see any reason why it would come as a big surprise
    to anyone that our salaries have fallen behind the industry!  Gimme a
    break!   And this with an effective pay cut coming in January with the
    "you can't win but you can lose several ways" new-and-"improved"
    much more expensive health insurance packages, no wonder people are
    feeling a bit grim - I know my family is.
    
    I wish they offered these "trip to Hawaii" programs to engineers!  The
    last time the company sent me anyplace, I flew down to Florida Sunday
    morning, attended conference sessions as our group representative 1-6
    on Sunday and 8 am- 8 pm Monday to Thursday night, and then spent a few
    days recuperating by visiting a retired uncle who lives nearby - not
    much of a boondoggle.
    
    /Charlotte (just another 50-60 hr/wk software slave!)

    
    re: .7
    
    Pay cut? Not where I'm sitting.
    
    /prc

    re .8
    
    When my takehome pay goes down, it's a pay cut, whatever other name it
    goes under.  I have DMP 2.  I'll probably stay with it, both because we
    have been seeing the same doctors since before I came to DEC 15 years
    ago and because neither of the HMOs in central Mass. has a very good
    reputation amongst my friends in the area.  The increase in the Mass.
    state income taxes this year already cut both my pay and my husband's
    pay by several dollars a week apiece - you think my family doesn't
    notice the difference??  And it's a good thing I walk to work!  Only
    one of our cars is currently working anyhow, and I don't have the money
    to get the heater working in the other one (the engine is OK, cross
    fingers).
    
    Calling a pay cut an "increase in fees" is like calling a tax increase
    something other than a tax increase - whatever you call it, the bottom
    line comes out the same - out of my pocket!
    
    /Charlotte (getting broker by the minute...)

        I have  often  wondered  how  competitve  my pay was, based on my
        education,  experience, level of responsiblity,  and  performance
        --- in my six years at  Digital  I  have always received a '1' or
        '2' rating.  WELL!  A few  weeks  ago  I was perusing the EETimes
        1990 salary survey and made the following observations:
         
        (1) I get paid _less_ than the US average for EEs ($52.7K)
        
        (2) I get  _much_less_  than  the average for EEs with a Master's
        degree ($56.4K);  I obtained my Master's degree in EE via GEEP in
        1989
             
        (3) I get paid  _less_  than  the  average  for  EEs  with people
        reporting to them, in _all_  catagories:  no people ($48.3K), 1-5
        people ($54.2K), and 6-10 people ($60.0K).    I  am  currently  a
        _project_leader_  for  a  team consisting of seven engineers,  HW
        _and_  SW, distributed worldwide.  I was individually responsible
        for  the    conception    of  the  project,  preparation  of  the
        "Engineering  Development  Plan", going  after  the  funding  (my
        project budget is ~500K), and  scouting for talented engineers to
        staff the project.

        (4)  I  get  paid _less_ than the average for engineers with  six
        years of experience ($44.4K)
        
        (5) I get paid _less_ than the average  for  electrical engineers
        with the title "Senior Engineer" ($52.3K).  I have  been a Senior
        Engineer for two years...
             
        (6) I get paid _less_ than  the  average for electrical engineers
        in New England ($55.3K)

        (7) I actually get paid  MORE  than  the  average  for electrical
        engineers 25-29 years old ($41.4K)
             
        
        The way I figure it, Digital has not provided me with competitive
        compensation!  To be fair, I must note that the above information
        has been provided to my management and they  are  considering  in
        this this round of salary planning.
        
        Have a GREAT one!
        
        John
        
        PS:  Just like Charlotte, I need a new  car  ---  I  blew  up  my
        beloved Soobie's engine yesterday! 

    Re .10
    Digital paid you a full year salary for you to get your MS. Remember?
    
    GF
    

    Don't look at me - I finished my masters degree 8 years ago, at night
    school - GEEP didn't exist in those days!  It's a great deal for those
    who can qaulify now - unfortuneately we could really use the couple of
    folks in my group who are currently in the GEEP program!
    
    (I just LOVE those figures for engineering salaries - real depressing!)
    
    Sorry about the Subaru - 10-year-old Toyota here (I call it the Toy
    Auto - still has its original clutch, however!).   It had better hold
    together for another year and a half until I pay off the loan to get my
    driveway rebuilt.
    
    Oh, well, back to work...for another half an hour or so anyhow - 10-
    hours a day in this place is enough.
    
    /Charlotte
                     

>                          -< Count both ends, please >-
>
>    Re .10
>    Digital paid you a full year salary for you to get your MS. Remember?
>    
>    GF
    
        I don't  get your point --- am I supposed to accept below-average
        pay  now  that I've been back for  over  a  year  and  have  made
        contributions, because Digital saw fit to make it  my  JOB  to go
        get my Master's in a YEAR? 
        
        GEEP is not some kind of a party, you  know.    Even  though  the
        financial  support  is  nice, it's just _nice_enough_ to help you
        _break_even_.  And the work you're doing --- pursuing an advanced
        degree at (usually) an accelerated rate --- is pretty damn tough.
        
        I really get pissed off at comments like .11 that imply that GEEP
        is some  sort  of _compensation_package_.  Financially, it should
        be  viewed  as   a  "temporary  domestic  transfer"  (that's  the
        relocation policy which applies), coupled with a Digital-paid-for
        education, which happens to be the  "job"  that  the  employee is
        "transferred" to for the duration of studies. 
        
        GEEP is a  vehicle  to  enable  selected  individuals  to  pursue
        advanced studies so that  they  make take on leadership roles and
        make  greater   technical  contributions  to  Digital.    ANYONE,
        REGARDLESS    of    training/education,  who  successfully  makes
        significant contributions had _damn_well_ be compensated for it!

        .11  implies that I should be satisfied with  below  average  pay
        because Digital happened to have paid some of my expenses  and my
        salary while at school. That's garbage!
        
        Later,
        
        John

It doesn't make sense for DEC to invest in GEEP and then drive GEEP graduates
into the arms of other companies by paying below-market salaries.  On the
other hand, GEEP is a very nice benefit for those who get it.  Most people
who go to graduate school full time don't get anything like an engineer's
salary while doing it.  If you had quit DEC to go to grad school, received
some sort of stipend from the school, and then rejoined the work force,
do you think you would have been better off?

    Well, you certainly used to be considerably better off if you got your
    master's degree and then joined DEC than if you joined DEC and then got
    your master's degree; the starting salary when I stared here (Jan.
    1976) was much higher if you already had an advanced degree, to the
    point where you would never catch up with it if you acquired the degree
    later.  The word used to be that you had to leave to get the salary
    that an advanced degree would ordinarily command.  I don't know if this
    is still true; the group I am in now hires very few new college hires
    of any sort, and most of the few we do hire, as well as most of the
    other people who already work here, have advanced degrees, but I don't
    know what the entry salary figures are.  (The other category of college
    hires we do hire here are our own former coop students.)
    
    /Charlotte

    re: .13
    
    My point is very simple.
    
    Company took care of you paying full salary for you to get your ms. Now
    company is facing tough financial situation, I'd like you to give
    something back to the company, I think we all should working harder and
    don't just worry about extra $ in our next raise. 
    
    By the way, you actually WORKED only 5 years here. Where is an EE
    engineer with 5 years experience and making up low 40K measure up to
    the EETimes 1990 Salary Survey? Just curious.
    
    FYI, I have my advanced degree in Mathematics and I don't think it's
    that tough to get it as you did. :-)
    
    GF
    

>    Well, you certainly used to be considerably better off if you got your
>    master's degree and then joined DEC than if you joined DEC and then got
>    your master's degree; the starting salary when I stared here (Jan.
>    1976) was much higher if you already had an advanced degree, to the
>    point where you would never catch up with it if you acquired the degree
>    later...

        When  I    was    out    at  Cornell,  '88-'89  school  year,  my
        graduate-level classmates were  getting offers that were actually
        MORE than what I  was  getting  at  the time --- in two cases, as
        much  as $6K more.   And  these  were  people  with  very  little
        experience.  Oh yeah, there is  NO  QUESTION  that  I  could have
        turned around and gotten more.  Since  some  of these well-paying
        offers came from DIGITAL, I would venture to say that had I quit,
        got educated, and came back, I could potentially be  making MORE!
        A lot of "ifs", of course...

        Probably what amazed me the _most_ was that some of these college
        kids  were  getting  hired  into  Digital at tremendous salaries,
        while I  found  out  (while  at  school) that a salary freeze ---
        okay, not a  freeze,  just  a delay in giving raises --- had been
        imposed.  Go figure!
        
        Have a GREAT one!
        
        John

>    Company took care of you paying full salary for you to get your ms. Now
>    company is facing tough financial situation, I'd like you to give
>    something back to the company, I think we all should working harder and
>    don't just worry about extra $ in our next raise. 
 
        Oh, I understand that we're going through tough times.  I've been
        willing to "bite-the-bullet" for a while  as  Digital  rides  out
        this recession, which it hitting New England worse than any other
        region.  At the same time, Digital must  realize  that  while its
        talented  engineers  usually  _love_  their  work  and are highly
        motivated by that work, they have mouths  to  feed (I have three,
        in  addition  to  my extraordinary oriface!  8^)) and  there  are
        other companies out there looking for people. 
        
>    By the way, you actually WORKED only 5 years here. Where is an EE
>    engineer with 5 years experience and making up low 40K measure up to
>    the EETimes 1990 Salary Survey? Just curious.
 
        Approximately the  same  at  what I make.  That was only _one_ of
        the parameters I cited, however.
           
>    FYI, I have my advanced degree in Mathematics and I don't think it's
>    that tough to get it as you did. :-)
    
        I'm  not solely  speaking  for  myself,  but  for  representative
        members  of  the  GEEP  population,  past and present, that I  am
        associated with.  In general, getting the Master's in engineering
        within the time constraints imposed  by  GEEP  (no longer than 18
        months) is pretty damn tough.  I did mine in a year...
        
        Later,
        
        John

    
    I found the same situation when I was out getting my Masters through
    GEEP.  There were plenty of students who had never worked full time
    getting offers well above what I was making after six years at DEC.
    I am sure other GEEP students see the same thing however, it is
    interesting to note that most of the GEEP students come back to DEC
    anyway.  The companies and recruiters will often approach the
    students they have heard about whether they are interviewing or not
    so it is hard for someone not to realize what the current market will
    bear.
    
    -doug

I don't think DEC is out of step with the industry in hiring new engineers
at higher salaries than current employees are making.  The standard advice
to new graduates is to change companies every two years or so for a while
in order to maximize salary.  I believe I got raises of around 20-25% on each
of my first two job changes (in times of much higher inflation than now).

    re: -1
    
    Why should anyone working for DEC be penalized by receiving lower pay
    then other companies just because he/she refuses to move between
    companies like a ping pong ball. Managers also look at potential new
    hires who move between companies to often as unstable and risky. They
    don't like putting large dollar amounts into salaries and training just
    to see that person move on to another companies and in some cases to
    other jobe outside their cost center in the same company in just a 
    couple of years. Some managers don't want to spend money on training
    which is not strictly current job related (ie. personal advancement)
    for fear they will not get their moneys worth if the employee moves on
    to a job outside their own cost center. This can be read as it's ok to
    spend money to let an employee advance within a cost center but not so
    if the employee has ideas of leaving the cost center and using their
    training elswere. It seems with these low or non existant pay raises 
    each year and not keeping pace with other companies (see recent 
    artical in Service News magazine during the last few months) that 
    employees are between a rock and a hard place.
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

>   <<< Note 1265.21 by CSOA1::ROOT "North Central States Regional Support" >>>
    
>    Why should anyone working for DEC be penalized by receiving lower pay
>    then other companies just because he/she refuses to move between
>    companies like a ping pong ball. 

Simply put, it's the price one pays for maintaining one's stability.
You have a job with some (greater or lesser) degree of security.
You already live near where you work.  You know the people you work with,
you know your job, you have some degree of seniority (maybe that third
or fourth week of vacation every year, or if not, that you'll soon have it).
You pay a penalty (more accurately, perhaps, you forgo a premium) to maintain
these benefits and comfort factors for as long as you find it worth the price.

- tom]

	re: <<< Note 1265.22 by REGENT::POWERS >>>

>>    Why should anyone working for DEC be penalized by receiving lower pay
>>    then other companies just because he/she refuses to move between
>>    companies like a ping pong ball. 

>Simply put, it's the price one pays for maintaining one's stability.
    
    Simply put, it's a relic of the American (at least -- elsewhere: please
    chime in) system which is based on short-term thinking.  Many US
    companies are plaqued by the fact that they don't keep salaries for
    people in line with the world at large.  A VP at a company I used to
    work for said that it was a typical problem in US firms -- and that he
    thought it was trash!
    
    If the difference is a relatively small amount (a week's pay?), then
    it might be explanable in terms of "the cost of stability".  But when
    the difference becomes large, it encourages the employee to leave and
    then costs the company even more money by hiring someone at the current
    rate who doesn't know the job as well as the departing person.
    
    Stability works both ways.  If a company wants to turn out good
    products, it needs some stable, experienced workers.  Digital hasn't
    become a "revolving door" yet, but it could easily become one if the
    pay continues drifting away from current norms.  Hopefully, the drift,
    at least, will stop.
    
    JMO
    
    -- Russ

    	re .10  CSMET2::ERICKSON
    
    	Nobody is stopping you from looking elsewhere for those salaries.
    
    	When faced with the reality of leaving, we begin to realize that
    	even in these lean times, there is more to our gains from DEC
    	than just out salaries.
    
    	If you don't find ANYTHING about staying here palatable and 
    	worth something to you, and if you find that you (think you) can 
    	get more money elsewhere -- why stay here?
    
    	If you find SOME type of added benefit to staying here, but it
    	doesn't outweigh the lower salary you are getting -- why stay here?
    
    	Tell your management you want more money or you are leaving.  Let
    	them then decide how much you are worth.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

>    	(.24) (Joe Oppelt):  Tell  your management you want more money or
>       you are leaving.  Let them then decide how much you are worth. 

>       (.10) (me):  The way I  figure  it,  Digital  has not provided me
>       with competitive compensation!  To be fair,  I must note that the
>       above information has been provided to my management and they are
>       considering in this round of salary planning.
        
        John

    Why is it that everytime someone makes comments which represent
    dissatisfaction with something people say, "if you don't like it
    leave."  This kind of thinking ihibits discussions and possible problem
    solving , IMHO of course.
    
    Scenario-There is a worker who, over the years has seen his/her salary
    in real terms drop over the years (raise less than annual inflation
    level).  This worker has alway been an above average performer.  This
    employee has to take another job to MAKE ENDS MEET thus taking away
    from time which he/she could be dedicating to his/her digital job. 
    Where is the benefit?
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    First, let me state my bias.  I was at Cornell with John, also as
    a GEEP participant.  I have heard this a lot, in reference to other
    GEEP participants:

	"Your degree doesn't prove anything"
        "You're out of touch with Digital--who cares about the new framus
	 at Foobar U."
	"You owe us, because we gave you a perk"
	"If you don't like it, leave, but in the meantime, shut up"

    If John leaves, Digital is in deep sneakers.  He's good, and he worked
    his tail off in Ithaca.  He is also incredibly positive and cheerful,
    and not a complainer (I am a complainer, and admit it :-).  He also is
    a consistent achiever, and has original and effective ideas.  Not many
    people have the guts to say "pay me more, or I'll leave."  If John
    leaves, it's an indication that others of similar calibar are leaving
    without as much fanfare.

    WHY ARE WE CHASING THESE PEOPLE AWAY?

    Maybe our (below average) salaries were competetive two years ago, due
    to the intangibles.  But the "new Digital" atmosphere does not provide
    the "non monetary" benefits that used to make up the difference.

    Try making an engineering proposal today.  You'll be told that the time
    to dream it up is "unproductive" time.  Maybe you'll have to put it down
    on your timecard under a special category.  If you need to do some
    research to understand where technology is going, be prepared to stay
    up late at night.  You won't get to do it during working hours.

    If you do come up with a concrete idea, better brace yourself.  Ideas
    come from the top or from marketing in the new Digital.  Even if your
    idea makes sense technically and anticipates the market, you'll have to
    wait for the ROI to become measurably acceptable.  This usually happens
    after the idea has been productized by 3 startups.  Two will become our
    CSOs.  Now you won't be allowed to implement your idea because it might
    "compete."  

    We need to do something to keep our engineers.  Suggestions:

	1. UTILIZE them.  Part of engineering is making informed
	   tradeoffs.  This involves KNOWING the customers (either
	   by meeting them or meaningful communication with marketing
	   and the field), and being in tune with Digital's long-range
	   strategies.  Digital's hunh?  Sorry, nobody told me about
	   those.  They're too "secret" to blab around to the ICs.
        2. PAY them.  By the way, engineers are pretty dumb.  They think
	   you're paying them when you do "nice" things like put some
	   Twinkies in a vending machine down the hall, or install some
	   bottled water dispensers.  It's cheaper than raises.  Wait a
	   minute -- You did _what_ with the bottled water?
        3. RESPECT them.  No, don't worship them.  But don't take every
	   opportunity to denigrate the time they spend keeping current or
	   getting ahead in the field.  A year away from Digital being
	   stretched technically can do amazing things to your imagination
	   and morale.  Too bad the experience gets ignored, or worse yet,
	   trashed upon return to the company.

    Nothing is worse than coming back with hot new ideas, and being put in
    a chain gang to "work off" the "vacation" you were on.  Especially if
    you are given no compensation for your degree, and the company appears
    to have done away with real technical career paths while you were gone.

    I had an incredibly easy time on the GEEP, and made it through with a
    4.0+ average (did some extra credit).  But even though my time was
    emotionally easier than many others', I still saw a few sunrises over
    the top of my monitor.  Don't tell me that it's easy, and that I ought
    to "make up for it."  By the way, I am in no way implying that I am not
    grateful for what Digital did for me.  We have the best education
    program in the industry.  But we need more than that.

    The ideas I came back are not "marketable", but John's were.  I'm glad
    his management saw fit to let him implement them.  I hope they get
    around to rewarding him before the competetion gets another productive
    member of our company.  And I hope that other GEEP participants are
    given the chance, by their management and their peers, to use what they
    worked so hard to develop, _and_ reap some rewards for their efforts.

>        <<< Note 1265.26 by MAMTS5::MWANNEMACHER "let us pray to Him" >>>
>
>    Why is it that everytime someone makes comments which represent
>    dissatisfaction with something people say, "if you don't like it
>    leave."  This kind of thinking ihibits discussions and possible problem
>    solving , IMHO of course.

Because (the threat of) leaving is the only truly effective weapon employees 
have in their negotiations with their employers.  (And threats don't work
unless there is some reasonable probability that they will be carried out.)

It takes truly heroic measures on the part of a line employee to effect
a change in salary structure, work rules, employee benefits, and the like.
Also, those who contribute to the attempt to change have a lot more to lose
in the effort than they stand to gain (on that particular matter).
There are two "easy" ways out: live with it or walk.

That said, I'll also grant that knee-jerk invocation of the law of supply 
and demand (which this is) does tend to close off discussion, or at least
not open many new avenues to discussion.  
Still, I'm one who hopes that exposing problems is one of the first steps
in solving them.

- tom]

    I hope someday we restructure our salary administration so that we stop
    rewarding good performers with a raise.  IMHO everyones salary should
    be increased/decreased only by the rate of inflation/deflation as
    measured by some standard economic indicator.
    
    If you do an average job--as determined by a fair and equally
    administered review system, you get a pat on the back, but not alot
    more.
    
    If you do a poor job--and after consideration as to why and an attempt
    to correct that performance--BYE...we don't need or want you.
    
    If you do a better than average to great job--you receive a bonus!  Not
    just a lunch or token, but a real bonus, say 4% of your gross annual
    pay in a lump sum payment.
    
    Advantage #1 is that instead of a boring $30 a week raise, for example,
    now you have your manager walk in unexpectely with a $1500 check, pat
    you on the back, and present you with a NICE surprise.  Now you can
    REALLY take your wife, husband, etc. out for dinner.
    
    Advantage #2 is that you will not fall behind inflation, as happens
    now.  
    
    Advantage #3 is that bonuses are a one-time award and do not build upon
    themselves.  Under the current system, Joe is a good buddy with his
    manager who gives him a 15% raise.  Joe will never lose that
    increase...regardless of his future performance.  Under this
    new system, Joe gets his bonus, but his salary remains the same.  If
    Joe does a good job next year, he will get a bonus--if not his gets the
    same old salary.   Much more incentive for continuous good performance.

    RE: .29

    Lack of pay for performance does not encourage employee growth.  I don't
    think I'd bother to go to school or do outside reading, etc.  Instead,
    I'd try to "luck out" and find some high-profile activity to win my bonus
    for the year.

    This would be good in the short run, but bad for the company in the long
    run.  Also, it smells too much like a planned economy for my taste.  I
    want to be rewarded for my long-term perspective, not just my ability to
    find something spiffy each calendar year.

    Finally, the bonus system doesn't change the nature of patronage, and it
    might even be worse.  If Joe finds a manager who is his good buddy, he'll
    get a bonus every year.  And now he has a very strong incentive to be
    loyal to his good buddy rather than to the company.  If Joe could serve
    the company better by reskilling and moving on to a new job/manager, he
    won't go, because he might not get the same bennies from the new manager.

    RE: -1 I like it.
    
    
    Mike