Conference 7.286::digital

         If it comes from a source such as another company, it may be
    possible to contact management at that location and explain the
    problem.  Educational institutions are especially responsive to this
    type of complaint.  Other places may also be responsive if their access
    to the INTERNET is in jeopardy.  Then, if that does not work, perhaps
    something can be done at one of our gateways. 
    
                                          Greg

>    to the INTERNET is in jeopardy.  Then, if that does not work, perhaps
>    something can be done at one of our gateways. 
    
 	Yeah, like shutting it down. That would solve the problem.

	Unless you are receiving threats of physical violence, don't
	make waves. If you are getting threats, talk to the cops
	and let them handle it. 
 
	Don't get the net involved. Develop a thicker skin.
	Or get your system manager to change your username.
	(e.g., add or remove first initial prefix or suffix.)      

re:                      <<< Note 1155.2 by TOTH::PREVIDI >>>
>                           -< Don't ruin it for us. >-

> 	Yeah, like shutting it down. That would solve the problem.
>
>	Unless you are receiving threats of physical violence, don't
>	make waves. If you are getting threats, talk to the cops
 
>	Don't get the net involved. Develop a thicker skin.

Uhhh, 'scuse me. D'ya wanna re-think that one? This hardly seems like an
appropriate response to solving .0's problem.

-Jack

    I think it was a perfectly appropriate response/request.
    
    ...but that's just my humble, personal opinion.
    
    -DM-

    I see your point, but on the other hand, I don't think it's right
    to use the network for this kind of garbage.
    
    I think .1 (?) hit it right on the head.  I'm all for freedom
    of expression, but I also believe that my rights end when my
    fist hits your nose.

    RE:              <<< Note 1155.2 by TOTH::PREVIDI >>>
    
    >	Don't get the net involved. Develop a thicker skin.
    >	Or get your system manager to change your username.
    
         I understand your concerns and consider them valid.  The name
    change suggestion is a good one, if it does not cause too many other
    problems for the user who is being harrassed. 
    
         If, however, the actual problem is to be solved, contacting the
    institution providing the network link has proven to be the most
    useful.  As I said before, most member organizations are responsive.
    
                                     Greg

re .5:

>                                              I'm all for freedom
>    of expression, but I also believe that my rights end when my
>    fist hits your nose.

    Wow!  Telepugilism!  What kind of peripheral do you use for that?

You have to determine the source.  If the source institution or company can be
found, inform them.  They should be as willing to track down the problem
as we should be.


As far as shutting down the network, wouldn't that be the equivalent of 
shutting down the telephone lines because of obscene phone calls?

			Bob 

re .9

... or taking out pay phones because drug dealers are using them.

(Which is happening all over the country.)

    Re: Freedom of speech

    Actually most external nets exist for the purpose of dissemination
    of research information.  So far they have tolerated people using
    them for personal messages.  It is abuse like these that threaten
    free flow of information for all!  It probably is a federal offence
    to misuse the network.  Best option is, if it is originating for 
    a company or institution to contact there gateway/postmaster/system
    manager and probably our gateway managers can help you too.

    
    Sorry, but your response is totally inappropriate.  I know of a
    case personally where a women was threatened bodily harm by a
    man in her organization.  Security or whoever was able to trace
    who was sending the offensive messages and that individual was
    promptly fired. 
    
    No one has to put with physical or sexual harrassement in the
    work place. Its against company policy so don't be afraid to speak up.
    
    
    -MC-
    
    

>Sorry, but your response is totally inappropriate.

Which response is totally inappropriate (and why)?  There have been 11
responses prior to yours.

/john

    Since the author of .0 did not indicate the type of harassment, it is a
    bit difficult to give an exact course of action but...
    
    If it is at the "annoying" level, first indicate to the person(s) who
    sent the offending mail (via mail, I assume) that you find it offensive
    and to stop. If they persist after that, call it to the attendtion of
    your supervisor and/or personnel rep.
    
    If it is at the "threatening" level (sexual or otherwise), go directly to
    your supervisor and/or personnel.
    
    In other words, follow the process as defined in the
    Policies/Procedures.
    

>    In other words, follow the process as defined in the
>    Policies/Procedures.
    
    Where in the P&P does it outline the process for employees who are
    being harrased by employees of *other* companies? Thanks.
    
    		Alfred

    The P&P does not cover *other* companies per se since we have no direct
    control over them (in terms of employee practices, that is).
    The advice given is a *suggestion* to start with our
    own policy before rolling your own (that is, handling it yourself
    without some help). 
     
    In this case, the notion of *doing the right thing* seems to be 
    appropriate.
    

Maybe .0 could send a copy of the harassing mail to the Email
postmaster of the other company asking that something be done about it?

/harley

    WHat *I* would do if this were happening to me:
    
    Escalate this up the personnel chain in DEC as high as possible.
    If you can get a highly placed personnel person here at DEC to call
    their "opposite number" at this other place, you may get better results
    than by calling yourself. They are likely to speak the same jargon,
    and our personnel person may be more credible than you as an
    individual would be.
    
    You may be surprised at how willing they will be to help you. 
    
    ALTERNATIVE:
    As an alternative, I believe you can involve the police (In the
    jurisdiction of the sender), since this likely constitutes
    "assault" by legal definition, possibly harrassment, and possibly
    one of the categories of telephone harassment (unless it came over a
    satelite directly into a DEC facility, it passed through a leased
    data line from one of the regional phone companies. Folks in
    NET OPS in PKO could likely even tell you which states/counties/telco's
    it passed through.)
    
    Anybody stupid enough to harass you electronically deserves to get
    nailed. There is an audit trail a mile wide that can lead you to
    them... 
    
    good luck
    

Depending on the type of mail address, it is often possible to get the
telephone number of the offender or of the system manager.  Note that
the abuser may have "forged" the mail message such that it appears to
come from a different person.  If the abuser is capable of this it
makes things much more difficult to trace.

I would first send mail to abuser and his system manager (postmaster)
asking him to cease and desist.  This will usually take of it.  If
you still persist in getting mail or it turns out the mail was forged
you'll need to enlist the help of the DECWRL's postmasters to either
remove the abuser's system from the network or to track who the forgeries
actually came from.

How did the abuser get your Email address?  Did you post an article to
USENET?  Did you send mail out to a Internet mailing list?  In either
case, there will almost certainly be somebody who disagrees with your
positions and in rare cases someone will send mail to you that you 
consider to be offensive.

Granted it may not right but I actually agree with .2 in that use of
external networks requires one to develop a thicker skin.  Note that
your or Digital's definition of abusive or offensive mail may not
agree with the abuser's system management (if any).

At least for USENET, many of the most obnoxious posters go for shock value
and actually try to be as offensive as possible.  Ad homein attacks on the
authors are common.  [My guess is that someone sent you mail attacking you
personally for a posting or mail message.]  A suggestion for those who are
considering sendmail mail to an Internet mailing list or posting USENET
article: read the list/newsgroup for a day or two before sending your
message.  This will allow to gauge the response you may get to your mail
message and hopefully you will learn some of the rules of etiquitte for
that list/newsgroup.

An aspect of electronic communications that is often overlooked is that some
(most?) people will often express thelmselves electronicly that would be
completely different if you had met the person face-to-face or even over the
phone.  A strongly-worded but polite mail message or a phone call will often
defuse an ugly situation.

I can think of two kinds of "harassing" messages, roughly "personal" and
"political."

The first would be electronic mail (or a general posting) specifically
directed at the victim.  The second might better be described as racial
or religous harassment.

In both cases, if I were hurt by a message, I would contact my supervisor
or personnel representative.  Although Dec might not have any explicit
legal authority over an employee at another company, we do have a
responsibility to our employees to maintain a "safe" and "positive"
work environment (P&P 6.24) and I don't see where that precludes a
Dec personnel rep. contacting the personnel department of another company.

You might want to treat the incidents in a formal manner: keep a notebook,
keep copies of all corresponance, etc. etc.

I would respectfully disagree with my collegues who suggested "grow a
thicker skin" -- this sounds as if it were edging uncomfortably close
to "blame the victim" for my taste.

My two cents.

Martin.

    How would you react if you got the very same "harrassment" written on
    paper by the very same non-DEC person, in a US Mail envelope delivered 
    to your office?   Exactly the same words, except instead of 
    electronically, they got to you via the post office. 
    
    I submit that one should react or take action in exactly the same way,
    regardless of the medium.
    I also submit that if one received US Mail with exactly the same words
    as the EMAIL in question, one would rarely , if ever, consider
    involving Digital or one's manager or supervisor.  Why react
    differently just because the medium is different?
    
    I also believe that the entire discussion is futile without
    getting at least some idea of what the harrassing content was.
    I honestly can't think of a single thing that anyone could write, mail,
    or say to me that would make me even consider taking action other than
    strictly between me and that person.  I might punch him in the mouth,
    but I would certainly not even think of involving anyone else --
    especially company-related.  The whole idea seems ludicrous to me.
    I guess if more people learned to stand up for themselves instead of
    running off being tattletales, the whole world would be a lot better
    off.  
    
    As always:  My own personal opinion.  
    
    -DM-

    RE: <<< Note 1155.21 by HYEND::DMONTGOMERY >>>
    
    >How would you react if you got the very same "harrassment" written on
    >paper by the very same non-DEC person, in a US Mail envelope delivered 
    >to your office? 
    
         That would be a violation of postal regulations, and I might
    contact the postal inspector, as well as the police if advised to do
    so.
        
    >I submit that one should react or take action in exactly the same way,
    >regardless of the medium.
    
         I agree.  That would entail contacting the postmaster at the
    offender's site/company, possibly contacting a DIGITAL official, and
    if advised, contacting the police.
    
    >I also submit that if one received US Mail with exactly the same words
    >as the EMAIL in question, one would rarely , if ever, consider
    >involving Digital or one's manager or supervisor.  Why react
    >differently just because the medium is different?
    
         One reason is that the network medium is partially owned by DIGITAL,
    therefore logic might require that DIGITAL be consulted for a solution.
    With the postal service, which is not owned by DIGITAL, contacting a
    postal official would be one logical option. 
    
    >I also believe that the entire discussion is futile without
    >getting at least some idea of what the harrassing content was.
    >I honestly can't think of a single thing that anyone could write, mail,
    >or say to me that would make me even consider taking action other than
    >strictly between me and that person.
    
         I don't think content is all that important, as long as it is
    indeed harrassment.  If the individual simply repeatedly makes unwanted
    contact after being asked to stop, that would be enough of a problem to
    warrant intervention.  Try to imagine the effect of an irritating
    message every day from some lunatic.  Even worse, imagine a flurry of
    irritating messages clogging your mail which were generated by a
    program of some sort. 
    
    >I might punch him in the mouth, but I would certainly not even think 
    >of involving anyone else -- especially company-related.  The whole idea 
    >seems ludicrous to me.  I guess if more people learned to stand up for 
    >themselves instead of running off being tattletales, the whole world 
    >would be a lot better off.
    
         Violence has its place, but this is probably not it.  Chances are
    very high that this person is somewhat beyond arm's reach, thereby
    making pugilistic correction impractical.  What's more, there exists
    the possibility that the offender has greater physical capabilities
    than the offended.  Should that give him/her the right to continue?
    Fortunately, civilization has controlled some of the "standing up for
    one's self" that you describe.
      
                                       Greg

    re. replies 19ff.
    
    If the person who *believes* they are being harrassed is using company
    property or using company networking facilities, 
    it is the company's business and the process I suggested earlier applies.
    
    
    A properly conducted investigation involves protecting the rights of
    both the accused and the accuser; again the facts in the case 
    should determine the course of action.
    

    Harassment is subjective. If a person BELIEVES they are being harassed
    (and they are reasonably sane otherwise  ;^) ) then they probably ARE
    being harassed. From the standpoint of enforcing anti harassment
    policies, all such claims are taken very seriously. 
    
    It is usually incumbent upon the ACCUSED to prove they are NOT guilty.
    Which is great for the plaintiff, but not so good for the accused...

>    Harassment is subjective. If a person BELIEVES they are being harassed
>    (and they are reasonably sane otherwise  ;^) ) then they probably ARE
>    being harassed. From the standpoint of enforcing anti harassment
>    policies, all such claims are taken very seriously. 
>    
>    It is usually incumbent upon the ACCUSED to prove they are NOT guilty.
>    Which is great for the plaintiff, but not so good for the accused...
    
    
    Perhaps in TV law shows, paragraph 2 is true ( ;-) ) but in real life,
    we were taught to treat both sides fairly. 

    If you can identify the source of the harassment, the proper course is
    to contact the offender's MANAGER. That manager must (be seen to) make
    an effort at remedial action (or at least take your complaint
    seriously), or the company the harasser works for could be in for a big
    bucks lawsuit.  To initiate court action, you'd go before the EEOC or
    the state attorney's office and state your case - that is, that you
    were being harassed and the harasser's employer refused to do anything
    about it.  [Civil rights laws put the burden on the employer to control
    and discipline employees' harassment behavior.]

The EEOC is _definitely_ not involved in the kind of case mentioned in .0.

/john

    I find it interesting that in 27 replies (mostly speculation) we've
    yet to hear from the base noter.  Some clarification regarding the
    nature of the harassment would be helpful.
    
    ep

re: 28, re: all

... indeed.  In fact .0 doesn't even assert any harassment occured.
It merely points out that intercompany networks allow a new channel
of harassment and asks how such harassment could be handled.

I suspect the author has a case in mind, but they didn't really say that.

DIGITAL.NOTE has done this in a number of topics this year; gone on
and on based on a slendor thread alluded to in some reply, with little
or no detail, and always only one side of a story.

- greg

    RE: .29
    
         Of course, that can be good in that it allows for others in 
    similar situations to read opinions on matters which are not
    so focused on a specific situation as to make them useless.  The
    basenoter can request more specific opinions by revealing the
    situation, if he/she wishes.
    
         Lots of free advice and worth EVERY cent.
    
                                    Greg

    For what it's worth, the public accusation of harassment is itself a
    form of harassment.  Conferences like this work only at the level of
    discussing general policies, ethics, and so forth.
    
    I'm not a moderator here, but I suspect that if information was entered
    that would allow one to identify an "alleged perpetrator" of
    harassment, the note would be deleted.  The actual text of the
    harassment is also probably derogatory to the alleged victim.
    The pleas for "more information please" here have to be balanced with
    privacy.  The basenote author is free to ignore the pleas.
    
    As long as people don't take it seriously, Digital conferences,
    including, but not limited to this, one constitute kangaroo courts.
    
    If we are talking about harassment that comes from outside the company,
    then it falls into the same category as "hate mail" or "obscene phone
    calls".

You're quite right Pat, but I don't think people want those kind of details.

Just:	did something actually occur or is this a hypothetical question?
	is it work related (other than receiving it at work)?
	is it personal or product/company/service related?

Maybe it's moot though, because unless there is a reason why not the
obivous answer is "talk to your boss and/or personnel".

- greg

I'm the base noter. I have been watching this note since I put in the
origional note. I have been quiet because I wanted to see what responses
showed up. To answer some questions. It is a real situation. I am a
system manager, it happened to one of my users, the source is known.
I can not give out any more detail.  The user in question is dealing 
with it. They came to me to find out what action could be taken if 
their efforts fail. 

I would like to respond to a couple of the eariler replys.  Changing 
the users account name is not an option.  As far as .2 

          ("Don't get the net involved")

While I don't like to get "the authorities" involved, some times
you have to. The one thing that I have noticed was that there has
been no responses from anyone having it happen to them. I can't
believe that this type of situation has not happened before.


dave

If the Postmaster at the remote site has not solved the problem, the
next person to contact is the Postmaster at our gateway.

The Postmaster at our gateway _will_ be responsive.  Do what he tells
you to do.

/john

    RE:      <<< Note 1155.34 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>
       >   -< I've sent this entire note stream to decwrl::postmaster >-
    
            Really?  Without our permission?
    
                                    Greg

    And what is wrong with what John did? He could just have easily sent
    a mail message saying. Take a look at notes 1155.* in the notesfile
    Digital.NOTE. Instead as a convenience to the postmaster he extracted
    the notes and mailed them.
    
    Dave

>Without our permission?

Your permission is not required.

    As John wrote he, did forward the base note and the first 34 replies to the
    postmaster of DEC's external Email gateway in Palo Alto.  When
    questions/problems which are not a part of normal operations arise there are
    several of us who work with the postmaster.  Since I am the only one of
    us who will log into a VMS system long enough to use notes the only reply
    you are likely to see will be from me.
    
    Similar situations have come up in the past.  DEC has a group of people
    in the VRO buildings who have the responsibility to handle situations such
    as this.  However, before they are involved, I would recommend that the
    offending person and the postmaster at the offending person's site be
    contacted.  Remember that the postmaster usually  does not have the
    authority to perform any action on her/his own.  Therefore it would be
    better, in my opinion, to ask the remote postmaster to:
    
    	1.)  become involved if that is the way these things are handled
    	at that company,
    
    	2.) forward the message to whomever is responsible for dealing with
    	the problem in that company,
    
    	3.) recommend a proper course of action, i.e., whom to send mail to,
    	whom to call, etc.
    
    If this fails, contact the appropriate Digital people.  Whom those people
    are depends upon the details of the situation.  In most cases a low key
    approach will work best.  In a few cases a more visable approach is
    required.  The people in VRO I mentioned earlier represent the  high
    visibility approach.  They will do a formal investigation, if needed and
    will contact the company employing the offender if that is what it takes.
    
    In general you should not take any action yourself beyond contacting the
    offender and the remote postmaster.  Get the apporpriate Digital people
    involved before you take any additional steps.
    
    And, by all means, don't drop it.  A situation like this should not be
    allowed to continue.
    
    FWIW - the postmaster and his backups in Palo Alto will not take any
    action in situations like this without involvment of the VRO people. 
    We insure that mail flows into and out of DEC and we work to maintain the
    security of DEC's network and machines.  If asked, we will, of course
    forward reports of problems to the appropriate people.

    By the way, the node name which appears in the previous reply is used only
    to read notes.  I rarely log into the machine more often than once per
    month.  So if you wish to contact me please do so on DEC's internet at
    
    	[email protected]
    
    or via DECnet at [email protected] (jove::reilly).