Conference 7.286::digital

re: .0

For those of us who don't know what you are talking about, you might want to
explain.

I'm guessing you are talking about the IRS requiring Digital to withhold taxes
out of the plan B payments starting ??? and the comment that Digital was going
to try to change the plan so that the payments would become non-taxable to you.

Bob

    Yes, now lets see...
    That $200/mth - taxes = approx $150/mth - the extra cost of insurance =
    about $125/mth.
    
    What does $125/mth buy these day  (besides a used Yugo that is)?
    
    GaryB
    

    re: 2
    What does $125/mth buy these days?
    
    Gas.  At least until the Iraqi forced price increases hit.

    You forget that 8 cents per mile you get to pay for your gas/oil/tires.
    Lets see... (1.20 per gallon) / .08 = 15 miles per gallon -- I guess
    that's not bad as long as you don't ever have to do maintenance.
    
    GaryB
    

    I've long felt that Mgt think about the appropriateness [sic] of the
    Current Plan B.  How much the allowance is and how unrealistic that
    amount is when it comes to cost of the CAR, Gas, Maintenace, Insurance,
    and Taxes.  When the problem with the Plan A cancelation occured 
    two years ago, the company made two changes to Plan B; they raised
    the allowance $20.00 and increased the car life to 5 model years.
    
    My understanding is that the last change occured about 8 years
    previously when the allowance was raised to $180.00 per month.
    Anyone who's purchased a cars in the past ten years knows that
    they're at least 100% more expensive today than then.  
    
    Management provides plan B for two purposes, first provide an option
    for local offices to have if they don't provide Plan A.  Plan A
    is a local managers option and currently costs a local cost center
    over $500 per month.  Fortunately, my local cost center will provide
    it to us.  Plan B costs the company $200 per unit per month (now add
    7.x% to that for employer's FICA).  If the company wanted to cut
    expenditures, a rational approach would be to increase the Plan B
    allowance making it a reasonable economic alternative Plan A
    participants.  As the economic diffential is reduced, more people
    will choose Plan B.
    
    With all my arguements about A vs. B, one might comment about why
    I'm still on Plan B.  My response is that it was a personal decision
    between my wife and I at the time I joined the local office. 
    Unfortuately decisions cars are like children and marriages, things 
    cannot alway be changed suddenly and there are long term
    ramifications to decisions not obviously apparent up front.
    
    I'm currently at the end of a 5year cycle on Plan B and will
    most likely change to Plan A.  The only things I'm waiting to determine
    it is the prospective changes to Plan B and what type of car I can get
    on Plan A.  I will go to Plan A when I've recovered enogh money to 
    maiximize the econmic benefit.  If the comany suddenly made Plan B
    attractive, I would very likely stay on it and get a vehicle of 
    choice.
    

	... Plan A is not "optional", it's available to all eligible US 
Country employees if they want it.  I know some Region-level IC's who have 
gotten cars recently due to their job requirements.  The main gate is how 
available you have to be to customer on-site visits, or to DEC offices within 
driving distance.

	I know our old Area management tried the "Plan B only" route about six 
months before the Country tried it with the ^&%$ hitting the fan.

    RE: .5
    
    If you want to look into Plan A, and want a Taurus, you'll have to wait
    until after September of this year.  I JUST on Friday got a call from
    New Fleet, saying they won't even process my paperwork until after they
    do the new Plan A contracts with Ford...
    
    Sigh...

    	I requested more information from Fleet after the withholding
    policy was "surprised" upon Plan B participants. After a week, I
    got a memo outlining the requirements that the IRS will supposedly
    use to determine if a company must withhold on FVR (Fixed and Variable
    Reimbursement) car plans.

    	The most important details are: 
    
    The company will have to establish their "standard car" in $. A 
    participant will have to operate a car that is valued at 90% of this 
    amount.

    The car must be driven a minimum of 5000 business miles/year.
    
    The car must be 4 years (or less) old.

    ACRS depreciation cannot be used by the employee, and he/she must
    submit paperwork to the employer stating that this is not being
    used.
    
    Extensive recordkeeping is required and must be exchanged by the
    employee and employer.
    
    	It doesn't sound like it will be pretty. I'm wondering what
    the impetus is for Fleet to change the policy to get back to
    non-withholding status. As it is, if left alone, the participants
    should simply not have to pay out at year end to cover the taxes
    on the $2400.

    	BTW- why are certain jobs REQUIRED to have a car on either Plan?
    If it's costing money now, unlike when it was a TRUE BENEFIT,
    why should I not have the option of Plan D, especially if mileage
    history would make one inelegible under the IRS rules for plan B?
    Further, do these rules affect Plan A for minimum mileage, etc.?
    
    Phil_who_wants_out_of_this_money_pit.

    Phil, is a car really required for some job codes?  Which ones?  I have
    both car plans available, but have elected to use my own car (older
    than 4 years) and get 22.5 cents per mile for its use.
    
    Mary
    
    

    Mary,
        According to my manager, the "occasional use"/22.5 cents/Plan
    D approach is not an option for my job code, which is 24CC (formerly
    T7S). I assume that he is correct, as apparently this is an issue
    with another of his employees as well.
    
    	I need to check this out through the policy manuals.
    
    Phil

    	First, scratch the reference to Plan D in my previous replies.
    I mistook Plan D for occasional use. Plan D is the DECwagon/ logo
    rebate deal..
    	
    	I checked the Fleet Policy manual and found the following: 
    An employee that is eligible for the Car Plan is not allowed to
    use the occasional use provision of 22.5 cents/mile unless there
    are unusual circumstances such as major maintenance or delay in 
    delivery of a Fleet vehicle.
    
    Now the catch:
    The eligible job codes and titles for Customer Services employees
    is "under review"; there are none listed. The last revision date
    was Oct. 1989 on this section.....go figure.
    
    Phil

    I'm a little confused.....
    
    Last year, my W-2 showed a $2400 amount that had never been taxed, but
    it was added to my Gross salary, to make my total income reported on
    my W-2 salary+$2400.  I am required to pay taxes on my 'total' salary,
    so wether I pay taxes now on the $2400 or later (April 15) doesn't
    matter much more than the potential interest/use of the 200/month each
    month.  Since I can't deduct business expense UNTIL that expense
    exceeds 2% of my gross, I lose part of the $2400 (pay it now or pay it
    later) anyway.
    
    What I question, is if (as a result of now taking out the taxes, and so
    making it look as if I get less) Digital thinks they might be able to
    work it out so that the $2400 by not be taxable, or that the $200/month
    allowance might be raised, where were they with these ideas/thoughts 18
    months ago or more.  So far as I know, I've always had to pay taxes on
    the $200/month.
    
    
    Mark (just my $2400 worth [before taxes])

    I think the IRS just wants its money up front.  Your salary block will
    still show salary + $2400, but now your Fed taxes withheld will show
    more money in it.  This should reduce your taxes due (or increase your
    refund) on April 15.  It shouldn't change your overall tax liability
    for the year.

    	Again, what's the impetus to change the plan? As mentioned in
    .13 and .12, the tax is still the same, it's just a matter of when
    IRS gets its mitts on it.
    
    	I suspect that there are Corporate tax implications driving
    this anticipated change.
    
    Phil

    The impetus for the change is that the IRS has changed its position on
    the withholding status of the "benefit" related to having a company
    car.  Personal use of a company car (whether Plan A or B) is now a
    BENEFIT subject to withholding tax.  The IRS assumption seems to be
    that Plan B-type reimbursements MAY BE 100% benefit (e.g., the car is
    not used for business).  As a result, the entire $200 is subject to
    withholding.
    
    Now, if you want the LOGIC behind that, someone who has worked for the
    IRS or has had a frontal lobotomy will need to respond here....
    
    Steve

    RE: .12 .13 .14
    
    It is a tax increase if you look closely.  The $2400 added to you gross
    income caused the money to be taxed on your form 1040 under FIT
    (Federal Income Tax).  The tax you aren't considering is the FICA
    (Social Security).  What they started withholding as the 7.65%
    FICA tax, not the FIT (Unless you may have filled out your W-4 with
    Single - zero dependents).  My July Car check was for $200 less $15.30
    for a net of $184.70.
    
    Ronald Regan and George Bush have been using FICA increases (that are
    not supposed to be taxes) to increase your tax bite over the last 
    10 years.

    Since I'm just coming onto Plan B, I've been following this note with
    interest.  But one thing isn't clear: is this change *anticipated*, or
    is it definitely going to happen?  And if so, when?  This year yet?
    
    Jon

    	The memo I received states:
    
    	"Our goal is to have the proposal completed in Q1 and once approved
    implement a new plan in Q2."

    	I have discussed the required participation based upon job code
    with my manager, and he has requested that I submit to him my reasons
    for desiring the option of non-participation. I intend to do so,
    reasons being that the taxation of benefits and limited business
    mileage make the car plan a contributor to the decline in my net
    income.

    Phil

    SET FLAME=BLAZING
    
    What really get's my goat is that unwilliness to consider the effects
    of the "Please stay tuned until Q2" comments.  Why can't we have a 
    reasonable answer now?!!!!  The problem with this has been brewing
    for months and fleet knew there was going to be an issue.  I figured
    something was about to happen when the Car Checks were transfered 
    from Travelletter to Payroll and it wasn't to "make payments to
    employees easier"; the travelletter deposits to DCU worked very
    well.  It actually is a pisser for me because DCU handles my car 
    loan and payroll comes to a local bank.  Now I must write a check
    and mail it to DCU.
    
    Gee thanks!
    
    SET FLAME=Back_to_low_boil
    

    RE: .19-
    
    	About a month prior to the transition from Traveletter to Payroll,
    car checks were mailed to the employee's home address, at least
    in this area. 
    
    SET FLAME ON
    	What also happened in this one unique month was that most (if
    not all) checks were mailed SANS ZIP CODE, resulting in tremendous
    delivery delays or non-receipt. This kind of error is absolutely
    ludicrous.
    
    SET FLAME normal level of annoyance...
    
    Phil

    Hi,
    
    How do I sign up for Plan B????
    
    Is there a minimum time I have to be on this plan?
    
    Thanks,
    Debbie

re: .21 ( How do I sign up for Plan B???? )

If you don't know who coordinates fleet cars for Rocky Hill (or Meriden) [ask
your secretary], then call Fleet Administration
	phone book: Fleet Administration
			Fleet operations
			 Plan B & D 	DTN 223-9800
and ask them who your local coordinator is.

That person should be able to help you.

	/Marvin

    RE: .21-
    
    	>Is there a minimum time I have to be on this plan?

    	One year, as I recall.
    
    Phil

    I'm confused.  I'm just coming onto Digital Car Plan "B", and amongst
    the things I need to submit, one of those things is a copy of
    my car insurance policy.  That makes sense, as Fleet apparently
    wants to ensure that my insurance policy complies with the
    requirements of the plan; ie, at least $x liability, at least
    $y property, etc.

    But the person from Fleet told me that I need to have my insurance
    company also include Digital on the policy as an "additional  
    interested party".  The reason for this (as I understand it) is
    so that the insurance company will notify Digital of any changes
    in the policy; ie, me changing liability maximums, or perhaps even
    cancelling the policy to save a few bucks.

    My insurance agent is confused about this, even after going to her
    underwriters and doing a conference call between me, herself, and
    the guy from Fleet.  Although the guy from Fleet kept insisting
    that Digital has no *financial* interest in the vehicle, they wanted
    to be notified of any policy changes.  My agent has come back to me
    saying that the only way to do this is to list Digital as "additional
    insured".  Not a big deal, except that in case of an accident or
    something, the reimbursement check would be made out to both me
    *and* Digital.  I have visions of nightmares trying to find some-
    body within Digital with enough authority and guts to sign such a
    check over to me in this [hopefully remote] situation.

    How do you out there currently on plan "B" handle this?  If it makes
    a difference, the insurance company is Liberty Mutual.

    Thanks
    Jon

    
    
      I think you're wrong on the meaning of "additional Insured".  
    
      Basically an "additional Insured" applies to the  Liability
    portion of your policy only.  It means that if you are involved
    in an accident, your insurance company will cover all your 
    liability (which it normally would do anyway), as well as any
    liability assigned to digital by virtue of the fact that it was
    a company car or on company business etc.    If digital's liability
    exceeds the limits of your policy, then the corporate liability
    insurance typically covers the rest.
    
    It should *NOT*  affect who any reimbursement for collision 
    damages goes to.  (That is still you and any leinholder.)
    
      I went through all the paperwork to be allowed to fly my personal
    airplane on Digital business.  That also involved listing DEC as
    an Additional Insured on my aircraft policy.  It was routine, 
    and didn't cost anything extra.  

    Al,
    
    After reading your note, I re-checked with my agent.  Maybe this is
    Liberty-specific, but she was adament about the fact that for an
    "additional insured" or "additional interested", that party has no
    legal liabilities *nor* any financial responsibility or interest in the
    vehicle.  It merely states that in case of reimbursements (ie, claim
    settlements or even (ha!) premium overpayments), that the check from
    the company is cut to both you AND the "additional insured".  An
    example is when the vehicle in question is leased.  A reimbursement
    check on a leased vehicle would be made out to both you and "General
    Motors Leasing Corp" or whoever the leaseholder is.
    
    Any input from any current Plan "B" people?
    
    Thanks for the inputs
    Jon

    I've been on Plan B for about 2 years (having been on Plan A for the
    previous 6). My insurance company calls Fleet the "Loss Payee". My
    agent tells me that it's simply so that the insurance company is
    legally obligated to tell Fleet what happens with the car. (For example
    if it gets totalled or I sell it and not tell Fleet, the insurance
    company is required to tell them so that I couldn't continue to collect
    the $200/month. Another example my agent gives is if I neglected to
    maintain adequate coverage or even cancel the policy altogether,
    they'd still tell Fleet.)

    The legalese that describes this Loss Payee is difficult for me to
    understand, but what follows is how the Loss Payee is described:

         IMPORTANT NOTICE TO LOSS PAYEE: Subject to the consent
         of the Company, this policy may be continued in force
         for successive policy periods by payment of the required
         premium to the Company on or before the effective date
         of each successive policy period.

                         LOSS PAYABLE CLAUSE

         Loss or damage under this policy shall be paid, as
         interest may appear, to you and the loss payee shown in
         the Declaration. This insurance with respect to the
         interest of the loss payee, shall not become invalid
         because of fraudulent acts or omissions unless the loss
         results from your conversion, secretion or embezzlement
         of *your covered auto* [emphasis in original]. However,
         we reserve the right to cancel the policy as permitted
         by policy terms and the cancellation shall terminate
         this agreement as to the loss payee's interest. We will
         give the same advance notice of cancellation to the loss
         payee as we give to the named insured shown in the
         Declarations.

         When we pay the loss payee we shall, to the extent of
         payment, be subrogated to the loss payee's rights of
         recovery.

    	BD�

    My auto insurance policy from USAA has Digital Equipment Corporation
    listed as an "Additional Interested Party".  This simply means that
    the insurance company sends notification to the Fleet B address
    whenever there is any change in the policy, or any claims on it.
    
    Digital is not a "Loss Payee", and would not be a party to any claims
    payments.
    
    I set this up with a single phone call when I joined plan B.  It
    appears to be a routine item for this insurance company to handle.

	... I'll depart!

	USAA is a lot easier to deal with than MOST insurance companies!!!!
These guys have service via phone down pat.

    The mechanism described in .28 sounds like exactly what I'm looking
    for.  Unfortunately, apparently, Liberty Mutual (aren't they the
    company that insures ALL the Plan A cars??) is not able to offer this
    type of arrangement.  I mentioned the "Loss Payee" thing to them that
    was mentioned a few back, but they said that that is basically the same
    as "additional insured"; ie, in case of a claim, both my name and
    Digital's name would be on the check.
    
    Present solution unless something else comes up: list Digital as
    "additional insured", which requires Liberty Mutual to notify Digital
    of any changes to the policy.  In case of a claim, high-tail it to the
    nearest phone to let the Liberty claims reimbursement people know that
    I do not want Digital's name on the check.
    
    I don't care for it, but it appears to be the only way around it. 
    Let's just hope I never have to make a claim....
    
    Jon

re: .30

I didn't have any trouble getting Digital listed as an 'interested party'
with State Farm when I was on Plan B.  Have you considered changing insurance
companies?

Bob

    In the memo posted in July indicating that the company would announce
    the changes to plan B participants on Oct 1.  Seems that once again,
    we've been asked to wait for a memo that is late.  
    
    Don't we deserve a little respect?
    

Give 'em a break. Since when does "Q2" mean "the FIRST day of Q2"?

Q2 ends in December. In my book, they're not technically late until
January. I would appreciate as much as you if it came sooner, but I'm
not holding my breath.

- Andy -

    RE: AUTO INSURANCE.
    
    I have Liberty Mutual insurance and I am on car plan B. The interested
    party statement has not resulted in accident claim payments being
    written to two parties in my case. When I had 2 rear end collisions in
    2 1/2 yrs to my car each claim check to me only had my name on it. The
    only thing DEC got was any notifications of policy changes or updates.
    I live in Cincinnati Ohio and any differences between how Liberty
    Mutual responds to the interested party statement may be related to
    individual policy practice according to any state regulations.
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
     

    You guys are forgetting the other part of the car plan.
    If you are on plan A you pay $30 a week.
    Plan B does not so:
    Plan B = $200 a month, 8 cents per mile and a $30 a week savings.
                     kevin
    
    

 Re: .35, Kevin -

	You also need to consider that on Plan A your insurance is paid for you.
	And that on any plan, you'll still need to provide fuel, oil, and washes
	to your vehicle.  With Plan A you'll never pay more than $30.00/wk for 
	it.

	To me, it's worth it.  

	-Jp- a_current_plan_a_driver
    

    jp
       This is how it works for me.
       I get $200 a month--- My lease is 206.85
       I get 8 cents a mile--That pays for gas,oil and insurance.
       I save the $30 a week--That work out to $130 a month.
       No, The guys that want to drive Saabs and BMW's don't do as well.
       You have to drive something sensible, which I don't think is
       to much to ask. Besides I would rather drive a Celica than a
       Ford wagon. Oh, I forgot-- I also get the tax write off-not
    digital. 
                kevin

    
    Let's assume the following...
    
    Your car is used 100% for business.
    You drive 20,000 business miles/year.
    You average 30 MPG.
    Gas is currently $1.40/gal unleaded regular.
    You get your oil and filter changed every 3K miles at a cost of $20.
    Your car insurance is $1200/year.  I currently pay $1650/year for a
    '88 Mazda MX-6 GT.
    You are in the 15% tax bracket.
    
    So,
    You receive 12*200 = $2400/year in plan b payments.
    Your mileage payments = 20000*.085 = $1,700
    
    Your lease payments are $2482.20.
    Your fuel costs are 20000/30*1.40 = $933.
    Your oil change expenses are 20000/3000*20 = $133.
    Your car insurance is $1200.
    Your taxes are 2400*.15 = $360.
    
    Your Total Plan B Income is		$4100.00
    Your Total Plan B Expenses are	$5,108.20
    The cost of plan b to you is	$1,008.20 = $84.02/month
    
    Your cost under Plan A would be 30*52 = $1,520.
    
    Your apparent savings under Plan B is $551.80 = $45.98/month
    
    What we don't know, however is the following:
    
    	What you had to pay up front to start the lease.
    	The cost of the following, for which every lease I've ever seen,
    	requires the leasee to pay for:
    		License/registration/inspection fees.
    		Use and other taxes charged the leasing company by state
    		and local authorities.
    		Maintenance.
    	The tax write-off you mentioned.  I'm assuming that you are talking
    	about un-reembursed employee expenses, which are only deductible
    	once they exceed a certain % (5?) of your AGI.
    
    The above is not intended to show you that you made the right/wrong
    decision, but rather to show you all the things you must consider in
    making the decision.  There is also one other factor.  Some people
    wouldn't be caught dead in a Taurus or Celebrity.
    
    Bob

    I've already posted what it costs for my car, a 1987 Calviler,
    certianinly not a SAAB.
    
    
    1)  I average 25000 miles per year.  I was quoted a lease rate 
    	in 1989 of $360 per month from the Special Leasing agent
        DEC provided.  My car payment to GMAC was $235.00
    
    2)   The 8 cents a mile usually never covered more than $30
         per week.  About the same as gase and oil (10 oil changes 
    	 a year.  Business miles averaged $10 per week.
    
    3)   Insurance is $1000 per year.
    
    4)   I had to buy a new set of tires.  $300
    
    5)   The car needed new brakes.  $150
    
    6)   Car washes were $5.00 per month.
    
    7)   One hit and run driver, $300 insurance deductable.
    
    My cost per month was in excess of $350 per month.
    
    Then at 70000 miles, it threw a rod.
    
    
    
    You had probably better read your lease agreement again, most of them
    have penalties for high mileage and body/engine damage.  Lease 
    companies assume no risk.
    
    A DEC wreck at $30 per week is a bargin.

    
    I will spell it out again.
    I get $200.00 a month-- lease is 206.85 (no down payment-18,000
    miles per year from the DEC agent co.)
    I get 8 cents a mile. Granted at $1.40 a gallon it's not as good
    as .80 cents but it still pays for gas (@30 miles per gallon =about
    3 to 5 cents a mile, ins at 699 a year= about 3.8 cents a mile.)
    I had a Mazda for 3 year = no maint cost.
    I have a Toyota now= no maint cost.(also 3 year warranty)
    Car is 90+% busness use.
    I get a tax write off=not as good as it use to be but still better
    than nothing. The first couple years I had the Mazda it was worth
    about $800 a year. The first year was an investment tax credit.
    That leaves the $30 a week in my pocket so if I would need some
    maint on the car I am saving 30x52 weeks= $1560.
    This is a Celica and I raise hell on back roads so I am sure I will
    need some tires so $1560-$250=$1310.
    With the high gas prices the 8cent a mile will not pay for oil but
    at around a buck a quart it does not cost much.
    If you can't get something for around $200 that is reliable and get
    25 to 30 MPH you can't make out, also if your ins is $1200 a year
    it could be tuff.
    You say your cost were about $350 a month. Consider that plan A=
    $200 a month plus $30 a week which is $130 a month= $330 a month.
    You didn't do as bad as you thought.
    Everyone says plan A cost them $30 a week but they forget about
    the $200 a month it also cost. Why??
                                       
        Kevin
    
                     

re:.42

What tax benefits are there with the lease?  Could you explain that a little?

Why do people forget about the $200/month cost?  Probably because it's an
opportunity cost and I don't think we want to start bringing those into the 
picture.

Bob

    re :41-.42
    
    That $200.00 per month is really:
    
    
    	$200.00
    	 (15.30)  Fica Taxe
         (56.00)  Federal Tax Liability (Assuming 28% marginal rate)
        --------
    	$128.70	  Net Monthly Benefit  
        ========
    
    	at the 15% marginal tax rate, the benefit becomes $154.70
    
    

    Yea, Your right, we all pay taxes. My check is $172.28 but my car
    is a tax write off and it comes back to me at year end. Trust me
    it does,yes it does,but,but nothing,trust me it does. The lease
    payments,ins,gas oil,maint washing and such are busness expences.
    Of course this is all tainted by what you are reimbursed from DEC.
    It is not near as good as it use to be, which is only fair that you
    don't get rich off tax breaks.It is easy enough to break even or
    make a little.Even if it didn't $172.28 is better than nothing. You
    still didn't answer why people say plan A only cost $30 a week and
    forget the $200,woops I mean $172.28 a month. I don't know what
    a opportunity income is but I get $200 (ok, before taxes) a month--if
    I don't get it --it cost me.
    
        kevin   
    
    
    
    
    woops I mean $172.28 month.
        kevin
    
    

    RE: .18 .19 .32 .33-
    
    	OK- we're now in the second month of Q2. Not a word on the alleged
    changes to plan B. 
    
    SET FLAME ON
    
    	Not only is there no "revised" policy, many of you may have
    noticed that the VTX Fleet Administration P&P manual HAVE HAD THE
    ELIGIBLE CUSTOMER SERVICES JOB CODES "UNDER REVIEW" SINCE OCT. *1989*.
    I don't know if I'm officially eligible for a Fleet car, let alone
    how to plan for an aging (according to RULES) vehicle!

    	It may interest some folks to know that it appears that our
    U.K. Fleet cousins apparently can opt for a cash payment in lieu
    of participation in Fleet Plan X, similar to the "ENHANCED OPTIONS"
    of the Digital (policed by John Hancock to save every last foggy
    nickel) Medical Plan for those fortunate enough to have REAL
    alternative health coverage that allows the *patient* to decide
    *when* they need care and *where* to get it! (See VTX U.K Fleet admin.)
   
    	RE: .33 in particular-
    
    	>Give 'em a break....
    
    	GIVE *ME* A BREAK! What's happened to the concept of accountability,
    responsibility and "Do the Right Thing" in this company? It seems
    to always come down to the wire and end in a crap shoot whenever
    theres's a sticky wicket. In my opinion, Fleet is more concerned
    about why a Plan A car needs new tires than it is about informing
    its clients about general policy.  

    	SET FLAME= SIMMER
       	I'm steamed, as you may notice...let's not cross into the Medical
    arena- I just needed to point out one potential possibility for
    U.S. Plan B futures, since the writing seems to be on the wall...
    To paraphrase Chico Marx: If DEC don't inform you, you don't worry.
    And if you don't worry, that runs in to money.
    
    Phil_who_thinks_deep_down_that_Uncle_Sam_should_be_the_target_of_anger.

    For Jon Arnold -
    
    A little late and back to an earlier question...I used to be an
    agent for Liberty Mutual (I'd never use them as my insurer); and
    yes Liberty's rules did vary from state to state, but then any
    national company would be affected by state restrictions....but
    Liberty had some rules governing policyholders in Georgia that
    Allstate didn't.....
    
    While I worked for Liberty here in Georgia; I had an existing Liberty
    policy holder call me to transfer the policy on his Porsche (some
    folks live right) :-)......the transfer was to be from New Jersey
    to Georgia......Liberty in Georgia "refused" to insure the car,
    period..end of sentence....go find another company.  Yet Liberty
    had insured that car in New Jersey; certainly mystified me and
    infuriated that policy holder.  I tried to pursue it for the guy
    because it seemed so bizarre, but was merely told underwriting
    procedures were stricter here.  I had trouble buying that, as did
    the customer.  In the end Liberty lost not only his auto policy;
    he cancelled his homeowner and life insurance policies also :-)
    
    There *are* more reasonable companies around.
    
    Karen
    

    The end of Q2 is near.  Has any information been released about the
    revision to Plan B?  I haven't seen any.  There's already been plenty
    of discussion about this, but I can't resist further comment.  Maybe
    this issue isn't important to the policymakers, but it costs me money.  
    If the plan were an "accountable" plan, my tax liability would be
    reduced.  It would be great if the policy gets revised before 1991.
    
    Bob 

    RE: .49
    
>    The end of Q2 is near.  Has any information been released about the
>    revision to Plan B?  I haven't seen any.  There's already been plenty
    
 	People laughed when I originally started this flame.  I think
    you got the spirt of whay I started early.  
    
    Thanks to my new DM, I will take possesion of a Plan A car next
    week.  I've solved my problem.

    RE: .49, .50-
    
    	Perhaps you missed my reply in .47. I'd like to hear comments
    on the UK opt-out (apparent) option mentioned there.
    
    RE: .50-
    
    	I'm glad to hear your problem is solved. Are you really happy
    with the decision, given that as I see it your cashflow went from
    +$200 (less tax withholding) to -$320 (plus personal use taxation)/ 
    month for the Plan A car?
    
    Phil

    The file may pick up now with the new changes to planA.  The plan (as
    passed down to sales - it differs for customer service) is that we must
    drive the A vehicles until Gelco is no longer willing to fix them,
    REGARDLES of year or mileage. After that, if there are "folaters in a
    region, you must take one before the option of ordering a new paln A
    vehicle  becomes viable. So much for those who were planning to replace
    their own personal "other" car with a "used to be DEC wreck purchased
    from GELCO at 60,000 miles - or a bit sooner). If you want to purchase
    it, you will have to wait until Gelco says it is not worth fixing. Will
    you want to? So much for having invested several $100 in options in a car
    in anticipation of getting it back when you bought and resold it to
    John/Jane Doe. If you do purchase the vehicle, the value of the options
    will suffer more depreciation than you probably anticipated. The reason
    
    
    
    I put this in the Plan B note is to raise the issue that PLAN B should
    go to no restrictions on the age of the vehicle that qualifies.  There
    are several vehicles that are at or over 4 years which I would consider
    as desireable but the current plan excludes them. If DEC/Fleet does'nt
    care that we could be driving a car which is over 4 years old on Plan
    A, why should it be any different for PLAN B? Possibly there is a need
    to keep the number of floaters down, which a change in B could effect,
    but it certainly becomes an apparent inequity. Why, on an older car I
    might even be able to AFFORD plan B and get the type / model I like s
    well! What a concept! 

I have a Plan B car that's five years old.  There is nothing wrong with the car
and it has received excellent maintenance.  I don't understand why I should be
forced to buy a new car soon because of an arbitrary age limit.  Other
"retirement" guidelines could be implemented that might not be as easy to
enforce as an age limit but that would be fairer.

Paul

    Has anyone heard if Plan B has changed their requirements for what kind
    of car you can get? I'm looking at getting a two-door car and that was
    a NO-NO in the past. Has this rule changed? Many phone calls to Fleet
    have either gotten a busy signal or put on hold until I had to hang up.
    
    Anyone out there with any info on this??
    
    Ken

    
    I just signed up a couple of months ago, with a mazda 323 base
    hatchback.  That's a two door.  I am in a CS product support group.
    I believe that the group you are in might make a difference about
    the kind of car you can have.  
    
    jc
    

    I haven't gone into it lately, but when I was contemplating plan B, a 4
    passenger car was required, but 4 doors were not.  Jeeps, Broncos and
    the like were off limits.
    
    -dave

The requirements as I understand them are:

	Vehicle must nominal seat 4 people and be newer that 5 years old.

	Unless you are in sales => then it must have 4 doors

	Unless you are in Field (excuse me - Customer) Service =>
		said vehicle must be able to carry kits (Station Wagon).

	Blazers, Broncos, and Jeeps are legal.  I currently drive a full
	size Blazer on Plan A (It's a long story).

    
    Believe, it's really up to your CC mgr. If he/she says it's ok then it
    should be. I've seen two seaters on plan B.
    
    

    Just a note...
    
    A friend of mine says his company pays $325 + $.10/mile and considers 
    this to be "normal". Just who is DEC surveying when they think that
    $200 is "...consistent with the industry average."
    
    Steve

    I talked with a person who will remain nameless at Business
    Transportation the other day about what's happening with plan "B" and
    plan "A".
    
    It's not fully etched in stone yet, but it looks like plan "B" is going
    to go back to $200/month across the U.S. with a per mile reimbursement
    of $0.11/mile.  Rumor has it that fleet will "grandfather" the change,
    adjusting the monthly rate from whatever you get back to $200/mo over
    possibly 6 months.
    
    Plan "A" will probably go back to a flat rate weekly charge.
    
    My question is this.  If all of this is supposed to take effect on
    1-Jul, as previous memos have said, wouldn't it be proper for something
    to be decided on and announced to the troops  REAL SOON so that those
    of us that must make changes can start the ball rolling????
    
    Knowing the way things are working anymore around here, the powers that
    be will wait until midnight on the last day of June to announce
    anything that's going to be done.
    
    JaKe
    

    	I'm surprised there's anyone to talk to in "Business
    Transportation". I thought the whole thing was outsourced to GE
    leasing...
    
    	I believe the same rumor ($200/month) circulated via Email a while
    back. There is an apparent inequity here, big time: no one can
    fund a (plan qualifying) car payment/insurance/maintenance on $200/$.11
    per mile, yet drivers on Plan A who had PH&H leased vehicles received
    GELCO replacements regardless of mileage when the outsource deal was
    completed. 
    
    	There's a flock of $20k+ sticker nicely equipped minivans appearing
    in the office lot while Plan B drivers get the scrutiny.
    
    	What really steams me is the insulation Plan A drivers have from
    the effects of their accident & citation history on their costs. It's
    moot unless they also have personal auto insurance of their own and are
    surcharged. Plan B drivers assume all the related costs. I want to see
    some figures on the cost of Plan A vs B considering that Digital
    traditionally self-insured company car loss claims. I'll bet the "Plan
    B costs too much" argument holds less credence when this is included in
    the bottom line.
    
    Phil

    in Canada car plan A was a leased vehicle provided by Digital
    to you for a fee of $175/month. Car plan B is a vehicle provided
    by you and Digital pays you $353/month & 9 cents/km.
    
    Car plan A in Canada was cancelled about a year ago.
    
    Effective Jul 1 94 in order to qualify for car plan B you must drive
    4800 kilometers bussiness every 6 months. 
    
    please keep in mind that the car plan B 353 a month and all the
    per kilometer reimbersent is considered taxable income in Canada.
    
    
    	Brian V
    

    Then person I talked to in Business Transportation said that, on
    average, the company is losing $158/month per Plan "B" vehicle.
    
    Lessee, I get $338/mo here in Pittsburgh, plus $.08/mile, which is, on
    average just under 1000 miles/month.
    
    		Monthly Fleet $$$	$338.00
    		$.08/mile x 1000	$ 80.00
    		-------------------------------
    					$418.00
    	minus the $158 they "lose"	$158.00
    --------------------------------------------
    Alleged amount spent on company car	$260.00
    
    I find it hard to believe that the TOTAL cost on a plan "A" vehicle is
    only $260.  This figure includes lease cost, gas, maintenance insurance
    etc.
    
    sounds like again somebody's trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
    
    If you mention the fact that $200/mo + .11/mi doesn't get ya much of a
    car, the standard retort is that they are not paying for your car, just
    the business portion and you should shoulder the rest of the cost
    yourself.
    
    Ain't it fun here in Oz.
    
    JaKe